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(Opposing Views)   Judge rules that police in New York are under no duty to stop a madman from slicing you into fillets   (opposingviews.com) divider line 167
    More: Asinine, Judges' Rules, New York, Margaret Chan, dereliction of duty, supreme court justices, Gothamist  
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8003 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jul 2013 at 10:24 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-31 10:51:58 PM  

fnordfocus: Dimensio:Police may, if they wish, watch a violent crime occur without intervening.

On the other hand, it is a crime for a civilian to refuse to protect an Officer from a violent crime if ordered.


Got a link for that?
 
2013-07-31 10:52:03 PM  

ImpendingCynic: GUTSU: Dianne Feinstien has had a concealed weapon permit since the late 70's for her own protection, funnily enough when she orchestrated the Californian gun bans she exempted herself and other politicians. In New York politicians and ex-police officers are still allowed access to the dreaded "assault weapons" unlike us untermensch.

I hate to bust your "liberal hypocrite" rant but legislatures at every level exempt themselves from many of the laws they pass.


It doesn't change the fact that Diane Feinstein who has repeatedly advocated stripping everyone of their second amendment rights, made getting a handgun in california an almost impossibility, has the farking balls to reserve the right to be surrounded by security guards with "assault weapons" while carrying a concealed weapon herself. It would be like Pat Robinson snorting coke off of an 18 year old twinks ass while openly denouncing drugs and homosexuals.
She is a literal example of "Do as I say, not as I do" I can't even think of a better example.
 
2013-07-31 10:52:27 PM  
Obviously variables at play unreported in the article.

Police engage suspects in a tactical manner in the same way fire fighters approach a scene in a tactical manner. Safety is a priority. The other night when the propane facility had tanks blowing up every four seconds, the fire department wouldn't go in, even though civilian lives were clearly at risk. It just didn't make sense to. In an unlikely attempt to save lives, they'd almost definitely lose theirs.

Police in this situation, I assume, had a plan of attack in mind that was disrupted by the good samaritan. Or, they had called for backup and didn't want to intervene until they could absolutely ensure the guy's capture without further harm to him or themselves.

It's funny because had two cops approached a crazy, knife wielding murderer and it resulted in the murderer getting shot in a struggle, we'd be posting in outrage over how the situation was handled. But two cops follow a protocol and wait for strength in numbers before engaging someone and they're cowards.
 
2013-07-31 10:53:32 PM  

basemetal: What exactly is their duty then?


Right now my job's eatin' these donuts!
 
2013-07-31 10:54:13 PM  

Teiritzamna: catpuncher: You have a poor grasp of law

asplain


http://mdean.tripod.com/immunity.html

Maryland case law.  I'd bother finding similar NY case law, but then I'd just be referencing the decision in this case.  Maybe you should read it before posting completely incorrect gems like "As first responders often face kobayashi maru type scenarios,  to be able to sue the city for what they don't do, a plaintiff must show that they acted willfully."
 
2013-07-31 10:56:42 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: Lsherm: Peter von Nostrand: Dimensio: The headline and the story cannot be accurate. I have been assured that civilians should not be permitted to carry firearms because they should be relying upon police for protection against attackers.

No gun can ever protect the perpetually paranoid and scared amongst us

No, but it can shoot the motherfarker that is stabbing you when the cops won't respond.

So guns always protect people. Good point. Now that I've been reassured that guns always protect people, I say arm everyone, everywhere. In fact, I'd bet that there hasn't been one crime committed in Oklahoma since they passed open carry


Switzerland arms and trains all of it's citizen because of the whole militia bit. Their gun violence rates aren't near as bad as ours. There is a better way to do things.

I am a gun owner and I wouldn't mind more regulation and training all around.
 
2013-07-31 10:56:53 PM  
The number one goal of any cop is to get home without AIDS at the end of the day.  They are not heroes.  They are just enforcers doing a job.
 
2013-07-31 10:57:45 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: So therefore citizens have no obligation to assist an officer in distress then?


Hah.

PEN 195.10  Refusing to aid a peace or a police officer.

A person is guilty of refusing to aid a peace or a police officer when, upon command by a peace or a police officer identifiable or identified to him as such, he unreasonably fails or refuses to aid such peace or a police officer in effecting an arrest, or in preventing the commission by another person of any offense. Refusing to aid a peace or a police officer is a class B misdemeanor.

That's good for three months in jail, along with the various non-judicial punishments handed out for contempt of cop.  Also, with a record, you'll be unemployable, ineligible for public benefits, lose your gun rights, etc.
 
2013-07-31 10:57:48 PM  

charmbomb: Peter von Nostrand: Lsherm: Peter von Nostrand: Dimensio: The headline and the story cannot be accurate. I have been assured that civilians should not be permitted to carry firearms because they should be relying upon police for protection against attackers.

No gun can ever protect the perpetually paranoid and scared amongst us

No, but it can shoot the motherfarker that is stabbing you when the cops won't respond.

So guns always protect people. Good point. Now that I've been reassured that guns always protect people, I say arm everyone, everywhere. In fact, I'd bet that there hasn't been one crime committed in Oklahoma since they passed open carry

Switzerland arms and trains all of it's citizen because of the whole militia bit. Their gun violence rates aren't near as bad as ours. There is a better way to do things.

I am a gun owner and I wouldn't mind more regulation and training all around.


Please excuse my syntax and typos, I'm pregnant and it's been a long day.
 
2013-07-31 10:58:57 PM  
arcas: New York Penal Law § 195.10.  Just quoted in another post.
 
2013-07-31 11:00:08 PM  
No Soap Radio:
It's funny because had two cops approached a crazy, knife wielding murderer and it resulted in the murderer getting shot in a struggle, we'd be posting in outrage over how the situation was handled. But two cops follow a protocol and wait for strength in numbers before engaging someone and they're cowards.

Other than the fact that they twiddled their thumbs up their asses while someone was getting shanked a few feet away. Look you don't have to defend the NYPD, they are completely incompetent, corrupt, and utterly abysmal at their jobs. fark last year 2 cops managed to injure 14 people while firing on a guy almost point blank. A few years before that they spent $80,000 on typewriters.
What happened is that the cops were farking pussies and waiting until they could easily win in the situation, because of their cowardice some guy got stabbed.
 
2013-07-31 11:00:50 PM  
This isn't really shocking. The police are under no legal obligation to even help you if you're being raped and murdered in front of the station. Welcome to America, land of the free and home of police departments who can't be bothered to be brave.
 
2013-07-31 11:02:14 PM  

GUTSU: ImpendingCynic: GUTSU: Dianne Feinstien has had a concealed weapon permit since the late 70's for her own protection, funnily enough when she orchestrated the Californian gun bans she exempted herself and other politicians. In New York politicians and ex-police officers are still allowed access to the dreaded "assault weapons" unlike us untermensch.

I hate to bust your "liberal hypocrite" rant but legislatures at every level exempt themselves from many of the laws they pass.

It doesn't change the fact that Diane Feinstein who has repeatedly advocated stripping everyone of their second amendment rights, made getting a handgun in california an almost impossibility, has the farking balls to reserve the right to be surrounded by security guards with "assault weapons" while carrying a concealed weapon herself. It would be like Pat Robinson snorting coke off of an 18 year old twinks ass while openly denouncing drugs and homosexuals.
She is a literal example of "Do as I say, not as I do" I can't even think of a better example.


People akin to Pat Robertson have done exactly what you just said - Ted Haggard, for one. Sorry, I don't have the list handy of conservatives who have railed against gays and drugs, only to be found snorting both at once, but it's fairly lengthy.
 
2013-07-31 11:02:27 PM  

GUTSU: No Soap Radio:
It's funny because had two cops approached a crazy, knife wielding murderer and it resulted in the murderer getting shot in a struggle, we'd be posting in outrage over how the situation was handled. But two cops follow a protocol and wait for strength in numbers before engaging someone and they're cowards.

Other than the fact that they twiddled their thumbs up their asses while someone was getting shanked a few feet away. Look you don't have to defend the NYPD, they are completely incompetent, corrupt, and utterly abysmal at their jobs. fark last year 2 cops managed to injure 14 people while firing on a guy almost point blank. A few years before that they spent $80,000 on typewriters.
What happened is that the cops were farking pussies and waiting until they could easily win in the situation, because of their cowardice some guy got stabbed.


That's not how they tell the story at the bar though, and that's what counts.
 
2013-07-31 11:02:38 PM  

GUTSU: No Soap Radio:
It's funny because had two cops approached a crazy, knife wielding murderer and it resulted in the murderer getting shot in a struggle, we'd be posting in outrage over how the situation was handled. But two cops follow a protocol and wait for strength in numbers before engaging someone and they're cowards.

Other than the fact that they twiddled their thumbs up their asses while someone was getting shanked a few feet away. Look you don't have to defend the NYPD, they are completely incompetent, corrupt, and utterly abysmal at their jobs. fark last year 2 cops managed to injure 14 people while firing on a guy almost point blank. A few years before that they spent $80,000 on typewriters.
What happened is that the cops were farking pussies and waiting until they could easily win in the situation, because of their cowardice some guy got stabbed.


Looks like you two are in agreement on that point at least.
 
2013-07-31 11:03:01 PM  

Dimensio: The headline and the story cannot be accurate. I have been assured that civilians should not be permitted to carry firearms because they should be relying upon police for protection against attackers.


They SHOULD be relying on police for protection.  That doesn't mean police are required to actually protect them.
 
2013-07-31 11:03:24 PM  

From the source:

...they were in the motorman's car because they believed Gelman had a gun. And Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Margaret Chan has sided with the city, noting that there was no evidence the cops were aware Lozito was in danger at the time.

Lozito sued for negligence, but city lawyers say his demand for unspecified money damages should be tossed because the police had no "special duty" to protect him or any individual on the train that day-there's a long-standing legal precedent requiring cops to put the public safety of all ahead of any one individual's rights. According to the official NYPD account and Howell's affidavit, Howell was the one who tackled and subdued Gelman.


*fart noises*
 
2013-07-31 11:04:24 PM  

Lsherm: Peter von Nostrand: Lsherm: Peter von Nostrand: Dimensio: The headline and the story cannot be accurate. I have been assured that civilians should not be permitted to carry firearms because they should be relying upon police for protection against attackers.

No gun can ever protect the perpetually paranoid and scared amongst us

No, but it can shoot the motherfarker that is stabbing you when the cops won't respond.

So guns always protect people. Good point. Now that I've been reassured that guns always protect people, I say arm everyone, everywhere. In fact, I'd bet that there hasn't been one crime committed in Oklahoma since they passed open carry

Son, there's an art to trolling.  Doubling down on a logical fallacy isn't it.


I'm glad we both agree the post I was initially responding to is stupid and made up
 
2013-07-31 11:04:53 PM  

basemetal: What exactly is their duty then?

/to protect their own
//and serve themselves?


Hippie punching and infiltrating protest groups.
 
2013-07-31 11:04:55 PM  

BafflerMeal: SN1987a goes boom: In some states, it is illegal for doctors and other other off-duty medical personnel that happen to pass by people in need of assistance and not render whatever aid they can.

Which states?


In Alabama a Fireman/EMT while off duty must stop and render aide if they see someone hurt or an accident etc.

// Knows a couple of firement
 
2013-07-31 11:05:09 PM  

Teiritzamna: D'oh

this article


That makes more sense and actually has statements from the man who was attacked.

Sounds like the police got on to talk to the conductor. The assailant started banging on the door wanting the police to let him in, but the moment they started walking toward him he attacked the other guy.

Whoever wrote the original submitted article definitely had a lot of bias. It doesn't sound like the police were "hiding" at all, just trying to get more information from the conductor, probably regarding whether he had heard or saw anything.

I guess it would have been better if they had rushed in, guns drawn and yelling. That probably would have made the guy react, too. Darned if they do and darned if they don't in this case.
 
2013-07-31 11:05:58 PM  
If it is the NY cops the would probably end up shooting you instead of the attacker by mistake anyway and put a gun in your hand.
 
2013-07-31 11:06:33 PM  

Teiritzamna: D'oh

this article



Thanks for the real article.  I may not click on OV links any longer.
 
2013-07-31 11:06:38 PM  

ImpendingCynic: GUTSU: ImpendingCynic: GUTSU: Dianne Feinstien has had a concealed weapon permit since the late 70's for her own protection, funnily enough when she orchestrated the Californian gun bans she exempted herself and other politicians. In New York politicians and ex-police officers are still allowed access to the dreaded "assault weapons" unlike us untermensch.

I hate to bust your "liberal hypocrite" rant but legislatures at every level exempt themselves from many of the laws they pass.

It doesn't change the fact that Diane Feinstein who has repeatedly advocated stripping everyone of their second amendment rights, made getting a handgun in california an almost impossibility, has the farking balls to reserve the right to be surrounded by security guards with "assault weapons" while carrying a concealed weapon herself. It would be like Pat Robinson snorting coke off of an 18 year old twinks ass while openly denouncing drugs and homosexuals.
She is a literal example of "Do as I say, not as I do" I can't even think of a better example.

People akin to Pat Robertson have done exactly what you just said - Ted Haggard, for one. Sorry, I don't have the list handy of conservatives who have railed against gays and drugs, only to be found snorting both at once, but it's fairly lengthy.


Doesn't change the facts, I'm not a conservative by the way at least not a social one. I just find it funny that these people proclaiming all the ills that gun ownership causes some how think that they are more important than any other citizen. I'd honestly have more respect for antigun politicians if they followed what they preach.
 
2013-07-31 11:07:07 PM  

basemetal: What exactly is their duty then?

/to protect their own
//and serve themselves?


Radar traps and busting kids for pot possession, of course. To your average cop, that's all that matters in this world.
 
2013-07-31 11:07:46 PM  

One Bad Apple: Lsherm:


Son, there's an a art to trolling. .

Fixed


Care to try that one again?

The English language is lost on you...
 
2013-07-31 11:08:10 PM  

lewismarktwo: The number one goal of any cop is to get home without AIDS at the end of the day.  They are not heroes.  They are just enforcers doing a job.



Tell me about it.  I can't even do some decent solo ramraiding in the middle of the night without some idiot Witnessing me.
 
2013-07-31 11:09:14 PM  
GanjSmokr:
Looks like you two are in agreement on that point at least.

Call me old fashioned but I believe the police should put the public, especially when they've been disarmed before themselves. You know the whole "Protect and Serve" bit.
 
2013-07-31 11:10:12 PM  

fnordfocus: Mock26: If the police are not present and are not aware that someone is being attacked then how can they be expected to protect you?  That is what this case is about.  The judge did NOT rule that if the police witness a crime in progress that they can just stand there whistling Dixie.

The Officers were sufficiently aware of the attack to lock themselves in the conductor's cabin.


Oh really?  You have proof of this?  Because the farking article says that they were in the conductor's car.  Not sure if you have ever been on a subway train before, but they are made up of multiple cars, with the conductor being in the front one.  Based on what was actually written in the article it sounds like the police were in the front car and the attack occurred in another car.  Absolutely nothing in the article says that the cops witnessed the attack and then turned their backs on the scene and locked themselves in the conductor's cabin.
 
2013-07-31 11:10:42 PM  
GUTSU: blahblahblahWhat happened is that the cops were farking pussies and waiting until they could easily win in the situation, blahblahblah

I know it's different that direct police work, but in EMS, responders are trained that scene safety is the most important thing. You don't enter a situation unless you're safe. In the police world, you don't enter unless you have at least an understanding of the situation, a lot of help, or human lives are at stake.

The man that was stabbed in this case had his life at stake, but it was at stake regardless of whether or not police intervened. It would be best to prevent addition loss of life by waiting for the cavalry and apprehending a clearly dangerous person without a struggle. Call them pussies if you'd like but I have a hard time faulting them for doing what they had to do to ensure they would go home to their families that night. They don't get any medals of bravery but hard to judge them. Perhaps civilians shouldn't try to apprehend crazy people, by the way, and when they do, they shouldn't complain about injury.

Feeling a little dirty defending NYPD because I too feel they are genuinely awful. But in this case? Muddy details & crazy wildcard murderous variable lead me to give those cops some benefit of the doubt.
 
2013-07-31 11:11:46 PM  

CujoQuarrel: In Alabama a Fireman/EMT while off duty must stop and render aide if they see someone hurt or an accident etc.


A few years back, an NYC EMT faced criminal charges for refusing to help a pregnant woman suffering an asthma attack because she was on a coffee break.

Charges disappeared eventually, of course.
 
2013-07-31 11:12:01 PM  

GUTSU: Doesn't change the facts, I'm not a conservative by the way at least not a social one. I just find it funny that these people proclaiming all the ills that gun ownership causes some how think that they are more important than any other citizen. I'd honestly have more respect for antigun politicians if they followed what they preach.


And what I'm saying is, don't be so focused on the gun part. Congress has, in hundreds of ways, made it clear they're better than everyone else. For instance, until just recently, insider trading was quite illegal, unless you were one of those lucky 535.
 
2013-07-31 11:12:40 PM  

Mock26: fnordfocus: Mock26: If the police are not present and are not aware that someone is being attacked then how can they be expected to protect you?  That is what this case is about.  The judge did NOT rule that if the police witness a crime in progress that they can just stand there whistling Dixie.

The Officers were sufficiently aware of the attack to lock themselves in the conductor's cabin.

Oh really?  You have proof of this?  Because the farking article says that they were in the conductor's car.  Not sure if you have ever been on a subway train before, but they are made up of multiple cars, with the conductor being in the front one.  Based on what was actually written in the article it sounds like the police were in the front car and the attack occurred in another car.  Absolutely nothing in the article says that the cops witnessed the attack and then turned their backs on the scene and locked themselves in the conductor's cabin.


Never mind.  Missed the link to the other article.
 
2013-07-31 11:13:50 PM  

youknowme: One Bad Apple: Lsherm:


Son, there's an a art to trolling. .

Fixed

Care to try that one again?

The English language is lost on you...


Oh, and he got one...

Frankly, I thought he was too obvious.
 
2013-07-31 11:13:52 PM  

CujoQuarrel: BafflerMeal: SN1987a goes boom: In some states, it is illegal for doctors and other other off-duty medical personnel that happen to pass by people in need of assistance and not render whatever aid they can.

Which states?

In Alabama a Fireman/EMT while off duty must stop and render aide if they see someone hurt or an accident etc.

// Knows a couple of firement



hrm.  can't find anything about that.  in all of states I have practiced in though it seems to be more oral tradition than an actual law.
 
2013-07-31 11:15:40 PM  

No Soap Radio: GUTSU: blahblahblahWhat happened is that the cops were farking pussies and waiting until they could easily win in the situation, blahblahblah

I know it's different that direct police work, but in EMS, responders are trained that scene safety is the most important thing. You don't enter a situation unless you're safe. In the police world, you don't enter unless you have at least an understanding of the situation, a lot of help, or human lives are at stake.

The man that was stabbed in this case had his life at stake, but it was at stake regardless of whether or not police intervened. It would be best to prevent addition loss of life by waiting for the cavalry and apprehending a clearly dangerous person without a struggle. Call them pussies if you'd like but I have a hard time faulting them for doing what they had to do to ensure they would go home to their families that night. They don't get any medals of bravery but hard to judge them. Perhaps civilians shouldn't try to apprehend crazy people, by the way, and when they do, they shouldn't complain about injury.

Feeling a little dirty defending NYPD because I too feel they are genuinely awful. But in this case? Muddy details & crazy wildcard murderous variable lead me to give those cops some benefit of the doubt.


It's nice that you believe that 2 armed police officers need a detailed attack plan listing every single outcome to stop a single guy with a knife. That guy being stabbed to death mere feet away? Completely expendable, wouldn't want to have a police officer be put into a dangerous situation to defend the public now would we?
 
2013-07-31 11:17:04 PM  

Mock26: fnordfocus: Mock26: If the police are not present and are not aware that someone is being attacked then how can they be expected to protect you?  That is what this case is about.  The judge did NOT rule that if the police witness a crime in progress that they can just stand there whistling Dixie.

The Officers were sufficiently aware of the attack to lock themselves in the conductor's cabin.

Oh really?  You have proof of this?  Because the farking article says that they were in the conductor's car.  Not sure if you have ever been on a subway train before, but they are made up of multiple cars, with the conductor being in the front one.  Based on what was actually written in the article it sounds like the police were in the front car and the attack occurred in another car.  Absolutely nothing in the article says that the cops witnessed the attack and then turned their backs on the scene and locked themselves in the conductor's cabin.


I don't have a forensically-secured videotape if that's what you mean by proof.  I do, however, read the paper and such.  From  http://gothamist.com/2011/03/23/man_stabbed_during_madmans_rampage.ph p:

...even though subway passengers were yelling for help, the police officers decided to lock themselves in the front room with the conductor because they thought Gelman had a gun...
 
2013-07-31 11:18:05 PM  

No Soap Radio: But two cops follow a protocol and wait for strength in numbers before engaging someone and they're cowards.


two cops, transit or otherwise, should be sufficient for one guy with a knife. unless they are cowardly and more involved in protecting themselves rather than the paying public.
 
2013-07-31 11:20:35 PM  

GUTSU: GanjSmokr:
Looks like you two are in agreement on that point at least.

Call me old fashioned but I believe the police should put the public, especially when they've been disarmed before themselves. You know the whole "Protect and Serve" bit.


You're old fashioned.

We've gone from this

www.lincoln.ne.gov

to this

www.arminblog.com
 
2013-07-31 11:22:09 PM  
Just one more occasion to highlight the necessity of the 2nd amendment
 
2013-07-31 11:25:26 PM  
 If citizens cannot defend themselves and officers will not defend citizens either, what other options are available?

"I expect you to die, Mr. Bond."
 
2013-07-31 11:26:18 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: Yes, it's the people that don't own guns and/or want some restrictions on them that are paranoid


Right. Because believing that everyone but you is a homicidal maniac who will commit murder at the drop of a hat and thus should be barred (by men with guns) from owning guns....that's not paranoid AT ALL. Nope, not at all. Wanting to disarm someone in another state whom you will never interact with because you believe they're going to kill you....not paranoid at all, nope. Perfectly sane.
 
2013-07-31 11:27:09 PM  

ArkAngel: And they are following precedent in doing so.

Castle Rock v. Gonzales and Warren v. DC


came for Warren vs the District of Columbia, leaving satisfied.
 
2013-07-31 11:27:40 PM  

Lsherm:


Oh, and he got one...

Frankly, I thought he was too obvious.


Out here in 'literland they practically jump in the boat.
 
2013-07-31 11:28:43 PM  

No Soap Radio: Obviously variables at play unreported in the article.

Police engage suspects in a tactical manner in the same way fire fighters approach a scene in a tactical manner. Safety is a priority. The other night when the propane facility had tanks blowing up every four seconds, the fire department wouldn't go in, even though civilian lives were clearly at risk. It just didn't make sense to. In an unlikely attempt to save lives, they'd almost definitely lose theirs.

Police in this situation, I assume, had a plan of attack in mind that was disrupted by the good samaritan. Or, they had called for backup and didn't want to intervene until they could absolutely ensure the guy's capture without further harm to him or themselves.

It's funny because had two cops approached a crazy, knife wielding murderer and it resulted in the murderer getting shot in a struggle, we'd be posting in outrage over how the situation was handled. But two cops follow a protocol and wait for strength in numbers before engaging someone and they're cowards.


For what reason would any rational individual be "outraged" at an aggressive, knife-wielding murderer being shot during an altercation with police?
 
2013-07-31 11:29:09 PM  
No Soap Radio:
It's funny because had two cops approached a crazy, knife wielding murderer and it resulted in the murderer getting shot in a struggle, we'd be posting in outrage over how the situation was handled.

Whose "we" chief? Shooting some nut on a killing spree before he can attack someone else seems like an entirely acceptable result.
 
2013-07-31 11:29:58 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: A crime was being committed, surely that falls under their job description.  I wonder what a non-biased article would have looked like.


Reality is confusing when it go's against everything you've been indoctrinated to believe in, isn't it?
 
2013-07-31 11:30:10 PM  

dervish16108: basemetal: What exactly is their duty then?

/to protect their own
//and serve themselves?

Hippie punching and infiltrating protest groups.


Yup. Gotta make sure the money keeps flowing in the right direction. If they dissolved the NYPD Goldman Sachs, BofA, Lehman Brothers, JP Morgan, etc. would be smoking piles of rubble by the end of the week.
 
2013-07-31 11:30:47 PM  

Saturn5: Dimensio: The headline and the story cannot be accurate. I have been assured that civilians should not be permitted to carry firearms because they should be relying upon police for protection against attackers.

They SHOULD be relying on police for protection.  That doesn't mean police are required to actually protect them.


You are saying, then, that citizens should rely solely upon an entirely unreliable agency with no actual duty to protect for their protection?
 
2013-07-31 11:32:10 PM  

GUTSU: She is a literal example of "Do as I say, not as I do" I can't even think of a better example.


Well, how about Sarah Brady, of the Brady Bill, who purchased an unregistered firearm illegally and then shot an intruder with it?
 
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