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(Wired)   Google wants to sell you a big fat Internet pipe but doesn't want you to use it   (wired.com) divider line 79
    More: Sad, Google, Google Fiber, Google wants, Raspberry Pi, mail server, friend of the courts, home computers, Slingboxes  
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4872 clicks; posted to Geek » on 31 Jul 2013 at 9:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-31 01:15:28 PM  
I guess if I want to run my Arma3 server, I won't get Googlefiber.
 
2013-07-31 01:39:15 PM  

BullBearMS: rocky_howard: Good, but if you're running a business based on their service then you're no longer a consumer.

If that's what they mean, then they would say "commercial server" or "for profit server".

However, that's not what their terms of service say, now is it?


"Commercial" and "for profit" don't cover all the bases. There are any number of high-bandwidth usage models that are not single-user or even dozen-user that are not commercial, and even more that are not profitable, but are commercial (like Tumblr). It's much easier to get the language out there that they don't want you slamming the network with tons of multi-user traffic on a residential account. The TOS are weakly defined, so there's a lot of leeway in both directions, and it will be interesting to see where this ends up. On the surface, it looks like they are trying to segment their customers to charge for more usage in a tiered fashion.
 
2013-07-31 01:56:36 PM  
Google....Do as we say, not as we do!!!....forget about that evil thing and buy a pair of our spy glasses when they come out!
 
2013-07-31 02:03:45 PM  
How the hell is this even a story?

He quotes this answer (https://support.google.com/fiber/answer/2659981 ) from Jan 22, 2013. Here is a response from March from a member of the Google Fiber Team (http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/fiber/-ixejP9yHj4 ) That's probably not official, but it links to the FAQ (https://fiber.google.com/help/ ) where if you search for "server", you'll find an answer.

Journalism's dead.
 
2013-07-31 02:18:15 PM  
Journal

technoblogical: How the hell is this even a story?

He quotes this answer (https://support.google.com/fiber/answer/2659981 ) from Jan 22, 2013. Here is a response from March from a member of the Google Fiber Team (http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/fiber/-ixejP9yHj4 ) That's probably not official, but it links to the FAQ (https://fiber.google.com/help/ ) where if you search for "server", you'll find an answer.

Journalism's dead.


Journalism? Wired? I read an article there once that said, in the first paragraph, that computers store data as a series of 0s and 1s, and these numbers are called  binary. Supposed to be a geek magazine?

Good find though, at your link:

"Our Terms of Service prohibit running a server. However, use of applications such as multi-player gaming, video-conferencing, home security and others which may include server capabilities but are being used for legal and non-commercial purposes are acceptable and encouraged."
 
2013-07-31 02:26:04 PM  

waterrockets: It's much easier to get the language out there that they don't want you slamming the network with tons of multi-user traffic on a residential account using the bandwidth you are paying them for.


Again, before Google became an ISP they were very clear that they were completely supportive of the concept that a consumer should be legally guaranteed the right to connect any legal device to the connection they were paying for.
 
2013-07-31 02:29:36 PM  

Chthonic Echoes: Question for the more technically minded.  Would Google's ban encompass temporary servers for, say, hosting a game among scattered friends?


Technically, yes.  Would they actually care, almost certainly not.

However, they should be more specific in the policy, IMHO.  A gamer server is a server, and so is something like a nanny cam, but these aren't what the ban is meant to stop (basically, they want you to pay extra for the business class service if you are running high-bandwidth business applications).
 
2013-07-31 02:32:50 PM  

Carth: MindStalker: Carth: Skunkwolf: This means you can not host a game on your PS3 or Xbox 360 either.

That was my first thought. Does this mean you can't legally play xbox/ps on google fiber because you're likely to be acting as a server?

https://fiber.google.com/help/

Our Terms of Service prohibit running a server. However, use of applications such as multi-player gaming, video-conferencing, home security and others which may include server capabilities but are being used for legal and non-commercial purposes are acceptable and encouraged.

So it sounds like you can play xbox but you can't set up a Team fortress 2 server?


Actually, it sounds like that is ok (it's multi-player gaming and legal and non-commercial).  If you charge for it, though, it would be banned.
 
2013-07-31 02:35:41 PM  

Geotpf: Chthonic Echoes: Question for the more technically minded.  Would Google's ban encompass temporary servers for, say, hosting a game among scattered friends?

Technically, yes.  Would they actually care, almost certainly not.

However, they should be more specific in the policy, IMHO.  A gamer server is a server, and so is something like a nanny cam, but these aren't what the ban is meant to stop (basically, they want you to pay extra for the business class service if you are running high-bandwidth business applications).


But you are already paying them for X bandwidth.  As more and more consumers use more and more bandwidth - there are lots and lots of 'business class' servers you can run without hitting that bandwidth level.

ISPs saying, 'Well, an HTTP server means you have to pay us more - but a CS server doesn't cause you are just playing a game with your cousins online' is the opposite of net neutrality....and Google was all for it before.
 
2013-07-31 02:53:05 PM  
I can run a server on my mobile phone with my contract. Done it a few times when I needed to. I really do have unlimited internet on it.

They are stopping you hosting torrents which is flagged as server activity. Sky blocks it, most home ISPs block it.
 
2013-07-31 02:55:09 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Obbi: kidgenius: The contract terms merely say "you should not". "Should" in the legal world means next to nothing.

Actually, that wasn't the contract, wasn't that just their response?

The ToS here (Link)

ToS:
You agree not to misuse the Services. This includes but is not limited to using the Services for purposes that are illegal, are improper, infringe the rights of others, or adversely impact others' enjoyment of the Services. A list of examples of prohibited activities appears here. You are responsible for all activity on the Services provided to you by Google Fiber, whether such activity is undertaken by you or someone else.

Where that link says:
Use Google Fiber properly

Google Fiber is a powerful tool. Please do not abuse it.

Here are some common-sense rules that you should keep in mind when using services provided by Google Fiber:

Your Google Fiber account is for your use and the reasonable use of your guests. Unless you have a written agreement with Google Fiber permitting you do so, you should not host any type of server using your Google Fiber connection, use your Google Fiber account to provide a large number of people with Internet access, or use your Google Fiber account to provide commercial services to third parties (including, but not limited to, selling Internet access to third parties).

Respect copyright. Upload and download only content that you are authorized to use or access.

Do not circumvent, disable, or otherwise modify any security features or other limitations Google Fiber places on any services it provides.

Comply with all applicable laws, rules, and regulations when utilizing Google Fiber's services.

So, the ToS says "prohibits," but the the link says "should." No idea how that parses. Especially since if you follow the text exactly, "comply with all applicable laws" is an example of a prohibited activity?


they make it like that so they can stop what they like and allow what they like and shut up is the answer if you quiz them about it.
 
2013-07-31 03:07:27 PM  

BullBearMS: waterrockets: It's much easier to get the language out there that they don't want you slamming the network with tons of multi-user traffic on a residential account using the bandwidth you are paying them for.

Again, before Google became an ISP they were very clear that they were completely supportive of the concept that a consumer should be legally guaranteed the right to connect any legal device to the connection they were paying for.


Well, we can get down to a Clinton level of word parsing, but there is some difference between the right to "connect" a server to the network and "running" a server on the network. Running a server would consist of connecting it, but presumably it would be accompanied by activities such as promoting its use, and increasing its traffic for commercial purposes. If I go buy a blade and play Minesweeper on it and check my email, I'm not running a server, but one is connected.
 
2013-07-31 03:35:47 PM  

Marine1: We nerds like people who give us shiat for free, and Google does a lot of that...


They give you nothing for free. You richly compensate them, just not with cash.
 
2013-07-31 04:07:49 PM  

waterrockets: Well, we can get down to a Clinton level of word parsing, but there is some difference between the right to "connect" a server to the network and "running" a server on the network.


Or we could just admit that Google has completely changed their position here.

I don't think anyone would be upset if their position had been that "you need to pay for a business account if you are going to run a for-profit server".

That's not what they are doing here, though.

I'm reminded of their decision to remove adblock from the play store. Google likes to claim that they have have high ideals, unless money comes into the picture.
 
2013-07-31 04:23:51 PM  
Yeah, I'm not arguing that they didn't change their position on net neutrality.

Some people are generally pretty upset that an immature dot-com-boom company would become wildly successful and "grow up" from a business standpoint. I don't know what other alternatives they have, really, other than just giving up some of their bottom line just because of goals they had a decade ago. Money changes everything, and Google is no exception.

Is there a precedent for a company that became wildly successful and didn't start following the cash for most decisions? What's the alternative for Google? They slow down their pace, take some hits on their margins, make some room for competition, said competition doesn't mind being evil, and squishes Google into a distant memory of the 90s? I don't think there's a happy ending to big company success from a consumer standpoint.

The net neutrality thing makes a lot of sense, but it will never happen, because some large ISP is going to have to be the first one to take a stand, and they'll lose a lot of profit initially.

Sometimes a company will shake things up a bit, like T-Mobile this year, allowing me to get 95% of the same service I had with Verizon for $600 less per year. How far will it go though? If a wireless data provider starts selling service by the KB, something might get rolling on the ISP front...
 
2013-07-31 04:37:09 PM  

waterrockets: Some people are generally pretty upset that an immature dot-com-boom company would become wildly successful and "grow up" from a business standpoint.


Their stance on network neutrality was not expressed when they were an immature dot-com company. It was expressed just a couple of years ago.

"We also care a lot about Net Neutrality," Schmidt said. "Whether you agree with me or not, you would agree with the following principle: No entity that controls the last mile, whether it's a telco or a cable company or, by the way, a local government since they're doing this stuff, too, should be able to control the content that flows over it.

Seriously, just stop making excuses for their bad behavior.
 
2013-07-31 04:45:52 PM  
I'm not making excuses, I'm just not surprised, and I'm not disappointed. I still use Google for some stuff and competitors for other stuff. When Fiber lands in Austin next year, I'll look at them and the competition and make a decision.

There's a lot of polarization around tech companies for some reason, and it's annoying. They all rock in some areas and suck in others. There's no story here.
 
2013-07-31 04:56:00 PM  

waterrockets: There's no story here.


Hypocrisy always makes for a great story.

When it was a question of increasing costs for other ISP's to allow customers to use the full bandwidth they were paying for, Google was all up in Comcast/Verizon/AT&T's faces castigating them for limiting everyone's FREEDOMZ!

Now, when it might marginally increase Google's costs they are taking the exact same "fark you, paying customer" position they so recently claimed to oppose.
 
2013-07-31 05:03:13 PM  

BullBearMS: waterrockets: There's no story here.

Hypocrisy always makes for a great story.

When it was a question of increasing costs for other ISP's to allow customers to use the full bandwidth they were paying for, Google was all up in Comcast/Verizon/AT&T's faces castigating them for limiting everyone's FREEDOMZ!

Now, when it might marginally increase Google's costs they are taking the exact same "fark you, paying customer" position they so recently claimed to oppose.


While that's all true, the fact that "hypocrisy always makes for a great story" is also a statement that it's not uncommon. Fun to catch people/companies with it, and that's half of the Daily Show every night, so I guess there is a story there.
 
2013-07-31 05:43:19 PM  

BullBearMS: waterrockets: Some people are generally pretty upset that an immature dot-com-boom company would become wildly successful and "grow up" from a business standpoint.

Their stance on network neutrality was not expressed when they were an immature dot-com company. It was expressed just a couple of years ago.

"We also care a lot about Net Neutrality," Schmidt said. "Whether you agree with me or not, you would agree with the following principle: No entity that controls the last mile, whether it's a telco or a cable company or, by the way, a local government since they're doing this stuff, too, should be able to control the content that flows over it.

Seriously, just stop making excuses for their bad behavior.


They're not talking about the CONTENT of the net, but the direction and usage. They don't want you to run a business level usage on their net. You can download everything that you want. They don't care about content. They don't want to have to upload gigs over gigs just because you're being entitle and prissy. They were trying to be honest and anyone trying to run a business-level account is being DIS-honest. And you're asking them to just take the hit? Get real.
 
2013-07-31 06:07:22 PM  

skozlaw: Marine1: We nerds like people who give us shiat for free, and Google does a lot of that...

They give you nothing for free. You richly compensate them, just not with cash.


Well, yeah, but we don't get it marketed to us like that.

I miss the old days where you could just pay for something and, for the most part, be done with a company.

/... but free!... and open source!...
 
2013-07-31 06:13:16 PM  

rocky_howard: BullBearMS: waterrockets: Some people are generally pretty upset that an immature dot-com-boom company would become wildly successful and "grow up" from a business standpoint.

Their stance on network neutrality was not expressed when they were an immature dot-com company. It was expressed just a couple of years ago.

"We also care a lot about Net Neutrality," Schmidt said. "Whether you agree with me or not, you would agree with the following principle: No entity that controls the last mile, whether it's a telco or a cable company or, by the way, a local government since they're doing this stuff, too, should be able to control the content that flows over it.

Seriously, just stop making excuses for their bad behavior.

They're not talking about the CONTENT of the net, but the direction and usage. They don't want you to run a business level usage on their net. You can download everything that you want. They don't care about content. They don't want to have to upload gigs over gigs just because you're being entitle and prissy. They were trying to be honest and anyone trying to run a business-level account is being DIS-honest. And you're asking them to just take the hit? Get real.


They want to price the pipe based on your intentions. That's completely against their former stance and completely against Net Neutrality.

/Google fanbois are the new Apple fanbois
//But amazingly, even less informed
 
2013-07-31 07:17:52 PM  
Don't Be Evil
imageshack.us
 
2013-07-31 10:30:47 PM  

digistil: They want to price the pipe based on your intentions. That's completely against their former stance and completely against Net Neutrality.


Which has little to nothing to do with net neutrality, but thank you for trying. You can pass any kind of information through Google tubes and they won't throttle or negate any kind of packet.

They have issues with the amount you pass. I'm very sure if you set up a server that uploads let's say 10GBs a month (or whatever the average upload is), they won't care about it because they know, for example, that torrents upload stuff to the net. But if you set up a server and you end uploading 250GBs a month or more, you're damn sure they'll come down on you. And with reason.

Cry all you want, it's true.

You can say that they're backing down from a promise, doubtful, but okay. What you can't say is that they now don't support net neutrality.

What they're actually doing is filling a loophole in their wording after they saw some people were unfairly gaming the system.

/Google fanbois are the new Apple fanbois
//But amazingly, even less informed


Cry all you want about fanbois. I don't use Gmail, I have an iPhone and I couldn't care less about brands. I still use Google search though. Sorry Bing.
 
2013-08-01 12:02:29 AM  
rocky_howard:You can pass any kind of information through Google tubes and they won't throttle or negate any kind of packet.

Where does Google state this?
 
2013-08-01 11:48:02 AM  

UberDave: I read rather fast but it seems that Google simply doesn't want people to be bandwidth hogs and they didn't get specific with the rule.  I don't think that means that they are throwing net neutrality out the window...


It's not the worst possible violation of net neutrality, but if Google doesn't want users to run servers that hog bandwidth, they could just put limits on bandwidth.

I run a server on my computer that lets me connect and get at my data remotely.  It's a perfectly valid reason to run a personal server and won't put the tiniest dent in bandwidth.  It'd be a pity if that were banned.  (Although I have ways to get around that.  *evil laugh*)
 
2013-08-01 03:52:04 PM  

rocky_howard: You can say that they're backing down from a promise, doubtful, but okay. What you can't say is that they now don't support net neutrality.


Actually you can.

"You can use IMAP to retrieve your e-mail from our servers"
"You can't use IMAP to retrieve your e-mail from your server"

Minimal load both ways, damn near the same packets, only thing that changes is the directionality and competition. It doesn't matter what you think the intent was, that's the letter of the ToS. If you don't think banning one transaction and allowing another based solely on who the originator and receiver were isn't counter to net-neutrality... what do you think is?

If you want to hand-wave it as "oh, they only say that but it'll be different in practice," go for it, but it's still there in the terms.
 
2013-08-01 04:10:05 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Minimal load both ways, damn near the same packets, only thing that changes is the directionality and competition. It doesn't matter what you think the intent was, that's the letter of the ToS. If you don't think banning one transaction and allowing another based solely on who the originator and receiver were isn't counter to net-neutrality... what do you think is?


You're being disingenuous because they won't mack on you for retrieve emails from your server. Like you said, it's a minimal load. They won't care.
 
2013-08-01 04:48:05 PM  

rocky_howard: ProfessorOhki: Minimal load both ways, damn near the same packets, only thing that changes is the directionality and competition. It doesn't matter what you think the intent was, that's the letter of the ToS. If you don't think banning one transaction and allowing another based solely on who the originator and receiver were isn't counter to net-neutrality... what do you think is?

You're being disingenuous because they won't mack on you for retrieve emails from your server. Like you said, it's a minimal load. They won't care.


Again, it's not a matter of enforcement. If they're making public statements against anti-net-neutrality laws, the moment they're in any sort of proceeding, you can bet the cable companies are going to go, "wait, see, THEY want to restrict what can go over their network too." Google can drag up all the statistics they want about how it was used minimally to ensure network health and Comcast will turn around and go "yeah, that's the only reason we want to prioritize On-Demand over Netflix too; network health."

I think it damages their standing as a large pro-net-neutrality lobbing force more than it'll ever affect an average consumer directly.
 
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