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(Huffington Post)   How much more would a Big Mac cost if McDonald's were to double employees' pay? Take a guess, then click the link   (huffingtonpost.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Big Macs, Mcdonald, Jimmy John Liautaud, living wages, University of Kansas, minimum wages, salary  
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39564 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jul 2013 at 6:53 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



761 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-07-30 04:52:44 PM  
FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.
 
2013-07-30 04:54:12 PM  
can't we raise it like HALF that.
i mean seriously.
 
2013-07-30 04:56:39 PM  

ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


More people earning more money will allow them to spend more in their local economies supporting other businesses that will then earn more profits and be able to expand hiring more employees and creating more jobs.
 
2013-07-30 04:57:50 PM  
You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.
 
2013-07-30 04:58:51 PM  

ferretman: If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


So when are you going to go ask your boss for a reduction in your pay in order to create jobs?
 
2013-07-30 05:00:30 PM  
If the cost of a Big Mac were to increase by 68 cents, the corporate jets would get more gold inlay and the yachts would grow another foot longer. The corporation knows that people who work in fast food do it because they have to, so why would they pay higher wages?
 
2013-07-30 05:08:30 PM  
And it would be overpriced by $2.68
 
2013-07-30 05:11:21 PM  
It would cost one heart attack with a side of regret and potential stroke.
 
2013-07-30 05:12:44 PM  

ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


If the suppliers etc are union shops and their members are only making minimum wage, those are officially the worst unions ever.
 
2013-07-30 05:27:11 PM  
I'm going to guess....a billion.

[click]

Oh shiat, I'm WAAAAAAAY off.
 
2013-07-30 05:38:13 PM  

gilgigamesh: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

If the suppliers etc are union shops and their members are only making minimum wage, those are officially the worst unions ever.


But if the people working in the factories are making the same $15/hr minimum wage that the McJobbers are, they're gonna revolt.
 
2013-07-30 05:40:09 PM  
 In addition, every item on the Dollar Menu would go up by 17 cents.

If everything on the Dollar Menu costs $1.17, it's no longer a Dollar Menu
 
2013-07-30 05:44:11 PM  

scottydoesntknow: In addition, every item on the Dollar Menu would go up by 17 cents.

If everything on the Dollar Menu costs $1.17, it's no longer a Dollar Menu


Call it a "Super Value Menu."

PROBLEM SOLVED
 
2013-07-30 05:45:04 PM  

Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.


cut both, create a feudal system, blame Obama?
 
2013-07-30 05:46:38 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.

cut both, create a feudal system, blame Obama?


No, it's cool. It'll trickle down! One of these days.
 
2013-07-30 05:47:48 PM  
If you eat at McDonald's more than once or twice a year,  you are a bad person and you should feel bad about yourself.

Shame on you.
 
2013-07-30 05:48:53 PM  

ArkAngel: gilgigamesh: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

If the suppliers etc are union shops and their members are only making minimum wage, those are officially the worst unions ever.

But if the people working in the factories are making the same $15/hr minimum wage that the McJobbers are, they're gonna revolt.


Good.
 
2013-07-30 05:49:39 PM  
It's worth noting that the premise of the article is doubling all employee pay, all the way up to the CEO. So the impact of doubling only the low-level employee pay would be even less.
 
2013-07-30 05:49:45 PM  

ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


Yeah, your right to get cheap-ass food far outweighs those people's right to earn enough to lead a decent life.

FFS people, pay for what you get. People are trying to make a living, just like you.
 
2013-07-30 05:50:29 PM  

vernonFL: If you eat at McDonald's more than once or twice a year, you are a bad person and you should feel bad about yourself.


I have a hash brown and a coffee there most weekday mornings. My being a bad person who feels bad about himself is completely independent of that.
 
2013-07-30 06:03:16 PM  
Just raise minimum wage to $12. Since McD employees already earn more than minimum, according TFA, it will be a bonus for everyone. Problem solved. We'll do ourselves a favor by not having to hear about this crap every year or so....
 
2013-07-30 06:05:22 PM  
'bout $3.50
 
2013-07-30 06:08:45 PM  

ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


Thank God you are nowhere near reality.

Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.
 
2013-07-30 06:11:44 PM  
Close all the fast food places in those shiathole cities and everybody will be happy.
 
2013-07-30 06:13:47 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.


that


concentration of wealth is bad for every economic system, as it slows the velocity of currency (Aka "economic activity")
 
2013-07-30 06:13:48 PM  
550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?
 
2013-07-30 06:16:19 PM  
new study provided to The Huffington Post by a University of Kansas student.

So says a student.
 
2013-07-30 06:16:41 PM  
corporate  greed rules until the camel hits the dirt.
 
2013-07-30 06:17:11 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?


This is where the article really falls down. If McDonalds raised the price of their food they'd also lose business.

/an increase in minimum wage would cause price increases across the industry though, so they'd probably be all right.
 
2013-07-30 06:18:41 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?


This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.
 
2013-07-30 06:18:56 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

Thank God you are nowhere near reality.

Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.


While companies like Walmart and McDonald's probably could pay $15 and hour by only raising prices on each item they sell a few cents, most smaller businesses would go bankrupt if they had to pay that much. Not only that, but other people start demanding pay raises as well. People with skills and experience who were making $15-20 an hour before minimum wage went up are going to demand an appropriate raise as well, and by all rights they deserve it.

After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.
 
2013-07-30 06:20:26 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Close all the fast food places in those shiathole cities and everybody will be happy.


Yeah, millions of people want to live in NYC, Chicago, LA, etc, and put up with the high cost of living because they're such shiatholes.

Though granted, if you live in a great city like that, there are usually sooo much better places to eat.
 
2013-07-30 06:20:46 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: 'bout $3.50


GOD DAMMIT, LOCH NESS MONSTER!
 
2013-07-30 06:22:18 PM  

ReapTheChaos: After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.


If that was the case then it would be impossible for purchasing power to ever increase. Only thing is between 1947 and 1980 real purchasing power doubled.
 
2013-07-30 06:22:38 PM  
Pray 4 Mojo:
/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

because everybody can be a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company if they just work hard enough!

/that anybody can become a huge success regardless of their circumstances is probably the biggest lie of the "American Dream"
 
2013-07-30 06:23:37 PM  
ReapTheChaos:

While companies like Walmart and McDonald's probably could pay $15 and hour by only raising prices on each item they sell a few cents, most smaller businesses would go bankrupt if they had to pay that much. Not only that, but other people start demanding pay raises as well. People with skills and experience who were making $15-20 an hour before minimum wage went up are going to demand an appropriate raise as well, and by all rights they deserve it.

After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.


While that is one possibility, I don't think that's what would happen long term.  There would likely be an initial price increase across the board, but certain companies would also see it as an opportunity to build market share by lowering revenues and profit margins to undercut the competition.  They'd just take slightly lower corporate profits in order to steal the customer base away from competitors, which would prompt the competitors to do the same.  Eventually competition would drive prices back down.
 
wee
2013-07-30 06:25:13 PM  
Does that 17% account for FICA, payroll tax, unemployment insurance, etc?  I don't know how they report their numbers.  Still, 17% seems pretty low.  I think retail is like 25% or there abouts.
 
2013-07-30 06:27:54 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ReapTheChaos:

While companies like Walmart and McDonald's probably could pay $15 and hour by only raising prices on each item they sell a few cents, most smaller businesses would go bankrupt if they had to pay that much. Not only that, but other people start demanding pay raises as well. People with skills and experience who were making $15-20 an hour before minimum wage went up are going to demand an appropriate raise as well, and by all rights they deserve it.

After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.

While that is one possibility, I don't think that's what would happen long term.  There would likely be an initial price increase across the board, but certain companies would also see it as an opportunity to build market share by lowering revenues and profit margins to undercut the competition.  They'd just take slightly lower corporate profits in order to steal the customer base away from competitors, which would prompt the competitors to do the same.  Eventually competition would drive prices back down.


incremental increases in the minimum wage instead of one sudden doubling would help to mitigate the inflation problem while still help increase wages across the board and increase the participation of low income workers in the economy(drive economic activity)
 
2013-07-30 06:33:56 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Pray 4 Mojo:
/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

because everybody can be a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company if they just work hard enough!

/that anybody can become a huge success regardless of their circumstances is probably the biggest lie of the "American Dream"


Yes... because you either work at McDonalds or are a CEO... there is nothing in between.

I work with minimum wage employees all the time... there's a reason they are minimum wage employees.
 
2013-07-30 06:34:14 PM  
Actually, another way to look at it would be to say that if you cut the average McDonald's worker's salary in half, to maybe $4.00 an hour or something like that, McDonald's would be able to CUT 68 cents from the price of their Big Macs. That would help make food much more affordable to other people, which might help reduce the almost universal dependency on Food Stamps that Obama has created.

Going even further, if McDonald's cut salaries to but cut the price of Big Macs by LESS than 68 cents, what would happen is that McDonald's would, overall, become more profitable. This, in turn, would give the corporation more money that would eventually find its way back to the very same workers who are supposedly now receiving "lower wages." It's not actually that their wages are getting lower, it's that they're getting less DIRECT money and more INDIRECT money. But it all works out the same in the end -- and, I'm not afraid to say, probably to the benefit of the employee. It's a well known fact that charitable donations are at their lowest ever now, after years of recession. But if profits were to start going up again? Why, it would be like Christmas year-round.

The reality is that life is not an Oprah show. McDonald's can't just walk into their restaurants tomorrow and point at everybody and say, "You get a raise, you get a raise, EVERYBODY GETS A RAISE." They'd love to, but they can't. Because, see, if they do that, everybody gets a raise, sure...but then the price of food goes up, which means even more people go on food stamps, which means profits drop, which means charitable donations drop as well -- and, in the end, everybody gets poorer. Everybody.

Have you ever watched lobsters, subby? A tank of them. Every now and then, one lobster will try to escape. He'll swim up to the top and be just about to get out of the tank. And do you know what those other lobsters will do? I'll tell you. They'll grab him and drag him back down. Right back down there with him.

Don't be a lobster, subby.
 
2013-07-30 06:37:54 PM  
Start a Fast Food Workers Union. Would be pretty powerful and greasy
 
2013-07-30 06:40:10 PM  
Pray 4 Mojo:
I work with minimum wage employees all the time... there's a reason they are minimum wage employees.

Cool story bro! My roommate's neighbor's cousin once saw some woman buy cigarettes and a bunch of junk food with food stamps and drive away in an Escalade therefore all forms of Welfare(or "entitlements") are teh evil.

/confirmation bias and appeal to authority: how do they work?
 
2013-07-30 06:40:31 PM  
ferretman:
Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

you failed economics class, didn't you?
 
2013-07-30 06:45:37 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Pray 4 Mojo:
/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

because everybody can be a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company if they just work hard enough!

/that anybody can become a huge success regardless of their circumstances is probably the biggest lie of the "American Dream"


First... you said that.

Then... you said this:

Voiceofreason01: Pray 4 Mojo:
I work with minimum wage employees all the time... there's a reason they are minimum wage employees.

Cool story bro! My roommate's neighbor's cousin once saw some woman buy cigarettes and a bunch of junk food with food stamps and drive away in an Escalade therefore all forms of Welfare(or "entitlements") are teh evil.

/confirmation bias and appeal to authority: how do they work?


I see your game... well played. Now hit the showers.
 
2013-07-30 06:50:43 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: V

I work with minimum wage employees all the time... there's a reason they are minimum wage employees.


I work with managers and vice presidents all the time, as well as with doctors and accountants.  some are good at their jobs, some clearly have no business being where they are, and most just wanna get the job done and go home for a beer and maybe mow the lawn before the sun goes down.  which has about as much relevance as your statement here - its been my experience that if you underpay someone you get what you pay for.  if there isn't any incentive for an employee to actually participate, then yeah - you'll probably get crappy employees.  welcome to human nature 101.  offer someone a real wage increase for doing a good job and hey, i'll bet you get good employees.  not just an extra .60 cents either, I mean $25 bucks an hour if they show up and work for it.
 
2013-07-30 06:51:29 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: I see your game... well played. Now hit the showers.


I am known for my brilliant sarcasm and stabbing wit.
 
2013-07-30 06:52:17 PM  
Jesus, guys, it's a thought experiment. You don't have to actually double their salaries - especially the CEO and stuff. The point is that you could easily increase their wages, pay for it with a small increase in prices, and have everyone be a bit better off.
 
2013-07-30 06:56:51 PM  
If you're a great cook, then quit and go shop your resume elsewhere.

McDonalds (like any business) pays what it pays.  If it's not enough, leave.
 
2013-07-30 06:57:28 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Pray 4 Mojo:
/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

because everybody can be a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company if they just work hard enough!

/that anybody can become a huge success regardless of their circumstances is probably the biggest lie of the "American Dream"


Well yeah, the world needs ditch diggers, too.
 
2013-07-30 06:57:32 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: If you're a great cook, then quit and go shop your resume elsewhere.

McDonalds (like any business) pays what it pays.  If it's not enough, leave.


But it could be better, if you put more into your employees.
 
2013-07-30 06:58:04 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: If you're a great cook, then quit and go shop your resume elsewhere.

McDonalds (like any business) pays what it pays.  If it's not enough, leave.


That's why I patronize McDowells. Give a Brother a chance.
 
2013-07-30 07:00:17 PM  
I've always been puzzled by ayn rand cultists who get VERY upset when min wage workers start acting in their own rational self interest.

Rand Cult: 'go forth and screw over anyone/everyone to advance yourselves!'
workers: 'ok, lets form a powerful union, bring our corporate CEO to his knees, and make our lives better.'
Rand Cult: 'hey you can't DO that!?  it's WRONG!'
 
2013-07-30 07:00:52 PM  

Weaver95: ferretman:
Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

you failed economics class, didn't you?


History, anyway.
 
2013-07-30 07:01:46 PM  
McDonald's only owns 15% of its restaurants -- the remainder are franchised.  The vast, vast majority of people at the burger-flipping level are not reflected in MCD's wage costs.  The "study" is a total and complete fail from beginning to end and the student who wrote it should go back to his first class and punch the teacher.
 
2013-07-30 07:01:59 PM  

Weaver95: it could be better, if you put more into your employees.



Then start a business and do that.  You're the expert.
 
2013-07-30 07:02:10 PM  

RedPhoenix122: But if the people working in the factories are making the same $15/hr minimum wage that the McJobbers are, they're gonna revolt.

Good.

 
2013-07-30 07:02:16 PM  

Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.


Yep. Every able-bodied individual who is on any kind of long-term assistance is being subsidized by taxpayers (and more specifically, the US' creditors).

Would increasing minimum wage to a livable wage cause inflation? You bet. But not as bad as you might think it will. It will level off, our working class individuals will have increased consumption power, and then our economy will grow by leaps and bounds. Just like every other civilized nation that has increased to a livable minimum wage.
 
2013-07-30 07:02:19 PM  
Oh, that's a lot more than I thought.  Maybe the real question should be why should McDonald's party their workers that much?  Are they experiencing a shortage of unskilled, completely replaceable workers?
 
2013-07-30 07:03:25 PM  
But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.
 
2013-07-30 07:03:44 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: And it would be overpriced by $2.68



They shot themselves in the foot with local mailers for Buy One Get One.  Also some $1 items, especially with the coupon, like Quarter Pounders and Big Macs (Not combinable).

As I got home I realized that two sandwiches at $3 reduced the value in my mind significantly.  It wasn't "hey each sandwich is now worth $1.50" it was "damn this stuff is crap I should have gone to Chipotle"
 
2013-07-30 07:04:01 PM  
How much would it cost to double the I.Q. of a typical McDonald's employee?
 
2013-07-30 07:04:34 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: it could be better, if you put more into your employees.


Then start a business and do that.  You're the expert.


i'd love too...but my competition has artificially jacked up the barriers to entry into the market segment i'm most interested in getting into right now.  oh, I suppose I could write my congressthing about it...but lets be honest - who's he gonna listen to, me or the megacorp that's giving him a couple hundred thousand a year to look the other way?

which leaves me the grey or black market, but there's other issues involved with that market that present a different set of challenges.
 
2013-07-30 07:04:54 PM  
Morelix looked at McDonald's 2012 annual report and discovered that only 17.1 percent of the fast-food giant's revenue goes toward salaries and benefits. In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its more than 500,000 U.S. employees.

Thus, if McDonald's executives wanted to double the salaries of all of its employees and keep profits and other expenses the same, it would need to increase prices by just 17 cents per dollar, according to Morelix.


As has been pointed out above, this is a total failure of economics. Assuming that a 17% increase in prices would result in a 17% increase in revenue is idiocy, because the increased price will result in lower demand and therefore lower sales. If the original statement were true, McDonalds would just raise their prices 17% and earn that much more profit.
 
2013-07-30 07:05:06 PM  

clkeagle: Would increasing minimum wage to a livable wage cause inflation? You bet. But not as bad as you might think it will. It will level off, our working class individuals will have increased consumption power, and then our economy will grow by leaps and bounds. Just like every other civilized nation that has increased to a livable minimum wage.



The world NEEDS this expertise.  It's ready for it.  Please man, start a restaurant business and put this into action!
 
2013-07-30 07:05:15 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Pray 4 Mojo:
/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

because everybody can be a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company if they just work hard enough!


Which one are you?
 
2013-07-30 07:05:17 PM  
I think some people are against raising wages because that would make them feel less wealthy.
Maybe they are so used to the tired arguments and made up their minds long ago to the point that facts cannot change them.
Maybe they love to watch people suffer in poverty.

There is enough turnover in fast food that the jobs won't be missed.  There will even be new jobs for attempts at automation.   Now way too much money from fast food goes to advertising and marketing.
 
2013-07-30 07:05:36 PM  

MrBallou: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

Yeah, your right to get cheap-ass food far outweighs those people's right to earn enough to lead a decent life.

FFS people, pay for what you get. People are trying to make a living, just like you.


Did someone force them to take those jobs?
 
2013-07-30 07:05:46 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.


well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.
 
2013-07-30 07:06:00 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: If you're a great cook, then quit and go shop your resume elsewhere.

McDonalds (like any business) pays what it pays.  If it's not enough, leave.


Because there are so many well-paid job openings these days.

It would be better for society for workers to organize and force higher wages. With enough people, anything can be accomplished. That's the point of organizing.
 
2013-07-30 07:06:25 PM  
Fark the wages, what if they increased the real food content of their so called food. McDonald's is basically poison.
 
2013-07-30 07:06:38 PM  

vernonFL: If you eat at McDonald's more than once or twice a year,  you are a bad person and you should feel bad about yourself.

Shame on you.


FTFY
 
2013-07-30 07:06:50 PM  

Weaver95: I've always been puzzled by ayn rand cultists who get VERY upset when min wage workers start acting in their own rational self interest.

Rand Cult: 'go forth and screw over anyone/everyone to advance yourselves!'
workers: 'ok, lets form a powerful union, bring our corporate CEO to his knees, and make our lives better.'
Rand Cult: 'hey you can't DO that!?  it's WRONG!'


The employees should be welcome to try to form a union, and their employer should be free to fire them for beginning to organize. What's the problem again?
 
2013-07-30 07:07:15 PM  

Weaver95: Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: it could be better, if you put more into your employees.


Then start a business and do that.  You're the expert.

i'd love too...but my competition has artificially jacked up the barriers to entry into the market segment i'm most interested in getting into right now.  oh, I suppose I could write my congressthing about it...but lets be honest - who's he gonna listen to, me or the megacorp that's giving him a couple hundred thousand a year to look the other way?

which leaves me the grey or black market, but there's other issues involved with that market that present a different set of challenges.


"artificially jacked up barriers to entry". LOL, this is what farklibs actually believe.

Millions of businesses are opened every year. Start one and pay living wages.
 
2013-07-30 07:07:19 PM  
They should have 3 scales for min. wage based on age.
15 to 17 would be $3/hr
17 to 21 would be $7/hr
21+ would be $15/hr
Now go do the math.
 
2013-07-30 07:07:20 PM  

JerkyMeat: Fark the wages, what if they increased the real food content of their so called food. McDonald's is basically poison.


well that's kind of a separate issue.
 
2013-07-30 07:08:13 PM  
FTA: " would cause the price of a Big Mac to increase just 68 cents, from $3.99 to $4.67"

Who in their right mind would pay $4 for a Big Mac alone when you can get a Double-Double AND fresh-cut fries for a fiver from In n Out?
WHAT A STEAMING PILE.
I remember when Big Macs were under a buck and we all screamed when we saw $1.30.
Jack in the Box Big Stack with BBQ sauce is KILLER right now. FIND A COUPON!

/McSuck
 
2013-07-30 07:08:31 PM  

Weaver95: my competition has artificially jacked up the barriers to entry into the market segment i'm most interested in getting into right now.



Well, then.  In a way, you are in business.  You're running an excuse factory!
 
2013-07-30 07:08:32 PM  

oren0: Weaver95: I've always been puzzled by ayn rand cultists who get VERY upset when min wage workers start acting in their own rational self interest.

Rand Cult: 'go forth and screw over anyone/everyone to advance yourselves!'
workers: 'ok, lets form a powerful union, bring our corporate CEO to his knees, and make our lives better.'
Rand Cult: 'hey you can't DO that!?  it's WRONG!'

The employees should be welcome to try to form a union, and their employer should be free to fire them for beginning to organize. What's the problem again?


you might benefit from reading about the history of the labor union movement in the US.  all of this has happened before...yadda yadda....
 
2013-07-30 07:08:58 PM  

Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.


No, in the civilised world, the choice is either to have high wages, high taxes and welfare, or the unique basket case in America where no-one wants to pay for anything for anyone under any circumstances.
 
2013-07-30 07:09:12 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: my competition has artificially jacked up the barriers to entry into the market segment i'm most interested in getting into right now.


Well, then.  In a way, you are in business.  You're running an excuse factory!


you're another one who failed economics, aren't you?
 
2013-07-30 07:09:49 PM  
I still don't get why McDonalds is the top fast food chain, they are literally the worst one. The fries are the only think they do better than their competition but everything else is inferior.

/In N Out, Sonic, Burger King, Wendys, Carls Jr, Whataburger, Five Guys, KFC, Popeyes, Subway, Quiznos, Jack in the Box, Arbys, A&W, and even Taco Bell are better.
 
2013-07-30 07:10:00 PM  

Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.


Again, when you start your business, pay the CEO no more than he's worth. With paying only fair wages to everyone, you should be able to offer a quality product at a fair price, crushing the inefficient corporations who waste all their money on executive pay.

You don't own McDonald's. It's none of your farking business what they decide to offer in wages or salary to ANY of their workers.
 
2013-07-30 07:10:01 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.

cut both, create a feudal system, blame Obama?


Under a feudal system, landowners (in this case business owners) must provide serfs with a place to live (serfs had a right to use land) and security.

I'm pretty sure most of these companies would go broke if they had the obligations of feudal lords. They can do this because the government subsidizes them.
 
2013-07-30 07:10:04 PM  

puddleonfire: FTA: " would cause the price of a Big Mac to increase just 68 cents, from $3.99 to $4.67"

Who in their right mind would pay $4 for a Big Mac alone when you can get a Double-Double AND fresh-cut fries for a fiver from In n Out?
WHAT A STEAMING PILE.


It sure is.  They both are, actually.  How do you people even eat that crap?   It barely even qualifies as food at that point.
 
2013-07-30 07:10:37 PM  
In other news, $15 per hour is a livable wage.

How about become a great worker or an entrepreneur and write your own story.
 
2013-07-30 07:10:55 PM  

Weaver95: you're another one who failed economics, aren't you?



MY business is doing just fine... so I guess I passed.
 
2013-07-30 07:10:59 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.


Advertising? Does anyone not know of McDonalds? I can't drive 5 or 10 miles without seeing one around here.
 
2013-07-30 07:11:13 PM  

Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.



Untrue!  You can let the vermin starve in the streets as nature intended.
 
2013-07-30 07:11:28 PM  
If you increase minimum wage do you also have to increase the wage of the next job up in the chain to motivate advancement?
 
2013-07-30 07:11:30 PM  
tl;dr.  I once got busy in a Burger King bathroom. Is that relevant to this discussion?
 
2013-07-30 07:11:38 PM  
Why, think of the problems that would be solved if we just added 17% to the income tax!!

Heck, let's just bump the price of everything by 17%.

Problem solved, right? :)
 
2013-07-30 07:11:38 PM  

Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.


Inflation, how does it work?
 
2013-07-30 07:11:57 PM  

Deep Contact: They should have 3 scales for min. wage based on age.
15 to 17 would be $3/hr
17 to 21 would be $7/hr
21+ would be $15/hr
Now go do the math.


The math is companies would hire as many teenagers as possible, and avoid hiring adults who have actual financial responsibilities.
 
2013-07-30 07:12:09 PM  
The corporation knows that people who work in fast food do it because they have to, so why would they pay higher wages?

ah yes.......pretty much this......America is heading into idiocracy faster than was originally predicted by the movie.
 
2013-07-30 07:12:38 PM  
Debeo Summa Credo:
Again, when you start your business, pay the CEO no more than he's worth. With paying only fair wages to everyone, you should be able to offer a quality product at a fair price, crushing the inefficient corporations who waste all their money on executive pay.

are you familiar with how Costco is run?  you might find it interesting to see how their CEO runs the business, find out how his company stacks up against WalMart.

You don't own McDonald's. It's none of your farking business what they decide to offer in wages or salary to ANY of their workers.

It bothers you that I question your false and unsupported assumptions doesn't it?  interesting indeed to observe....
 
2013-07-30 07:12:50 PM  

Deep Contact: They should have 3 scales for min. wage based on age.
15 to 17 would be $3/hr
17 to 21 would be $7/hr
21+ would be $15/hr
Now go do the math.


Brilliant! Your goal is to ensure that every minimum wage job in America is staffed by people 20 and under, right?
 
2013-07-30 07:13:06 PM  
If you want to earn more monet, then get a better job than flipping burgers. It is meant to be an entry-level position, not to support a family. Other people do not owe you anything, much less a government-mandated minimum wage. It's this lazy sense of entitlement that is killing this country.
 
2013-07-30 07:13:18 PM  

basemetal: new study provided to The Huffington Post by a University of Kansas student.

So says a student.


A KU student at that. Equivalent to 3rd grade everywhere else.
 
2013-07-30 07:13:24 PM  

Weaver95: ferretman:
Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

you failed economics class, didn't you?


Yeah, cuz economics is a science..nobody with a PhD in econ from Harvard EVER argues exactly the opposite course of action with a PhD from Princeton over economic issues.

ever.

cuz it's a science.

Only one right answer.
 
2013-07-30 07:13:50 PM  

Abox: If you increase minimum wage do you also have to increase the wage of the next job up in the chain to motivate advancement?


The will happen naturally when all the people at shiat call center and date entry jobs realize they can make more flipping burgers and quit en masse.
 
2013-07-30 07:13:54 PM  
Same thing when Papa John's owner Schattner admitted that covering his employees health care would add a grand total of (up to) 0.14 a pizza.  http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/papa-johns-john-schnatter-obamaca r e-pizza-prices/story?id=16962891

If that pizza wasn't shiatty ketchup on cardboard, I'd be happy to pay it.  Same with raising the Rotten Ronnie's wage to $12-$15 (and I do like Big Macs).
 
2013-07-30 07:14:18 PM  
It's not about that.  It's about profit at the end of the fiscal year.  These days, if a company doesn't see improved growth consistently, the management gets fired.  Big players will do whatever is required to keep those numbers up and keep drawing that big salary.
 
2013-07-30 07:14:26 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: you're another one who failed economics, aren't you?


MY business is doing just fine... so I guess I passed.


well of course it is, you special little snowflake you....
 
2013-07-30 07:14:47 PM  
www.wayfaring.com
 
2013-07-30 07:14:55 PM  

mwfark: If you want to earn more monet, then get a better job than flipping burgers. It is meant to be an entry-level position, not to support a family. Other people do not owe you anything, much less a government-mandated minimum wage. It's this lazy sense of entitlement that is killing this country.


Word.  Pay 'em in paintings.  That's the ticket!

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-07-30 07:15:42 PM  
Starting pay at In-n Out is $10 /hr and you know what they get for that?  Ridiculously polite, literate staff and a drive through line that wraps around the block.  Now is some of that attributed to better hamburgers than McDonalds?  Sure, but their fries suck balls and there is nothing else on the menu.  Prices are roughly the same and somehow In n Out is able to pay their employees more.  Their employees treat the customers better which helps drive sales.
 
2013-07-30 07:16:01 PM  

ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


First of all, the article isn't talking about doubling the minimum wage.  It's talking about doubling the wage of every McDonalds employee, including the CEO.  There should be no other change in operating cost.

Second, I was under the impression that fast food jobs were for high school kids to make some spare money, not for adults looking to raise and support a family.  Unless you're management or higher, McD's isn't supposed to be a career.
 
2013-07-30 07:16:31 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Deep Contact: They should have 3 scales for min. wage based on age.
15 to 17 would be $3/hr
17 to 21 would be $7/hr
21+ would be $15/hr
Now go do the math.

The math is companies would hire as many teenagers as possible, and avoid hiring adults who have actual financial responsibilities.


Yeah, they'd hire some kids and some 21+'s for experience. So what.
 
2013-07-30 07:16:40 PM  
So how much would it cost them to replace McDonald's employees with a touchscreen kiosk and a robotic arm? Because that shiat would get my order right and leave it in the fryer for the appropriate length of time.
 
2013-07-30 07:16:47 PM  

Weaver95: I've always been puzzled by ayn rand cultists who get VERY upset when min wage workers start acting in their own rational self interest.

Rand Cult: 'go forth and screw over anyone/everyone to advance yourselves!'
workers: 'ok, lets form a powerful union, bring our corporate CEO to his knees, and make our lives better.'
Rand Cult: 'hey you can't DO that!?  it's WRONG!'


My ex gf was/prob still is one of 'those' people.  And that's exactly how she was all the time.  God she was insufferable.
 
2013-07-30 07:16:52 PM  
The world needs ditch diggers too.  Should McDonalds workers be paid more than the min. wage?  That's a debate worth having.  Should they be paid twice that?  No.  Want to make more than that and work at McDonalds?  Start at min. wage and work your way up through shift supervisor to mgmt.  Don't like it?  Too farking bad.  That's the way the world works.  And I don't want to try one of your stupid apple pies today either.
 
2013-07-30 07:17:00 PM  

Weaver95: you special little snowflake you....



I'm new here, so I haven't 'met' you yet before today.  However, I can say that it hasn't been a pleasure.
 
2013-07-30 07:17:09 PM  
So...we could get cheaper Big Macs if we cut the workers wages?
 
2013-07-30 07:17:26 PM  
A lot of people need to admit that $15/hour is scarily close to what they make for their "skilled" labor and don't want to see this ever come to fruition since it eliminates their feeling of superiority over the "poors".
 
2013-07-30 07:17:33 PM  
A 17% price increase is still a pretty damned high cost increase, and considering it's linked from the Huffington Post it's probably on the low side too.

Besides, most of the produce that went into that Big Mac was probably earned by migrant workers who work harder and earn even less. But it's okay, because they take the jobs that no Americans no longer want to do.
 
2013-07-30 07:17:45 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: If you're a great cook, then quit and go shop your resume elsewhere.

McDonalds (like any business) pays what it pays.  If it's not enough, leave.


Corporations will try to pay the absolute minimum that they can.  The solution is for the government to raise that legal minimum.  A high national minimum wage will leave McDonalds, Wal-Mart, etc, with no choice but to pay more.

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.


A decrease in demand would compel them to look at if lowering prices would raise more revenue.  If they're compelled to pay a livable wage they can look at raising prices to compensate and maintaining their original profit margin on lower volume, or lowering the profit margin and increasing volume.  They may still lose some profits overall, but I won't lose any sleep over lower executive bonuses or shareholder profits.

 Weaver95:

The employees should be welcome to try to form a union, and their employer should be free to fire them for beginning to organize. What's the problem again?

They should be free to start a union, but companies should be prevented by law from firing employees for attempts to unionize.
 
2013-07-30 07:18:01 PM  

Deep Contact: They should have 3 scales for min. wage based on age.
15 to 17 would be $3/hr
17 to 21 would be $7/hr
21+ would be $15/hr
Now go do the math.


Well that would definitely fix the teen unemployment problem.

Those in their early 20s without marketable skills would be even more farked than now, though.
 
2013-07-30 07:18:37 PM  

Deep Contact: They should have 3 scales for min. wage based on age.
15 to 17 would be $3/hr
17 to 21 would be $7/hr
21+ would be $15/hr
Now go do the math.


If that were the case and I was an evil corporate entity, I'd hire 16 year olds to man the registers, 18 year olds to cook the food (because there are things a 16 year old can't legally do in a kitchen), and then give everyone a bad performance review for their 20th birthday and a pink slip for their 21st.

/Actually, I'd annoy them into quitting by cutting their hours and screwing with their shifts and giving them crappier jobs than normal if they got close to 21.  It's less paperwork if an employee quits.
 
2013-07-30 07:18:51 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: you special little snowflake you....


I'm new here, so I haven't 'met' you yet before today.  However, I can say that it hasn't been a pleasure.


oh i'm harmless.  please continue to thrall me with your acumen.  I'm atwitter with all the learning!

tell me more about how screwing over your employees improves performance.  I wish to know more.
 
2013-07-30 07:19:04 PM  

CaliNJGuy: The world needs ditch diggers too.


Then you'd better pay them enough to live on.
 
2013-07-30 07:19:34 PM  
There is no need to raise pay unless you are unable to find workers.

The world does not magically owe lazy fark ups $500,000 a year.

And I doubt the magical number too.  It's just a number invented by some politically correct brainwashed student who has never run a business.
 
2013-07-30 07:19:57 PM  
Obesity tax.
Problem solved.

Tax anklebiters, crumbsnatchers, crotchfruit, sextrophies, snowflakes, crotchdroppings, spawn, and other progeny that eats up tax dollars.
Problem solved.

Stop giving incentives to problem makers.

Tax the fark out of churches, and war tool manufacturers, while you are at it.

You want to proselytize my congress critter? It's going to take a whole lot more quarters in the collection plate.
You want 12 kids? Pay for them.
You want a new bomber? Good, then add a tax to the munitions makers.

Stop subsidizing people who do harm to society, and give me a break.
And get off my lawn.
 
2013-07-30 07:20:35 PM  
You can't just throw money at this problem.  It's the same issue with getting good teachers, or getting people for a police force that want to serve the people.  Finding a dedicated Big Mac crafter is a delicate balance.  You don't want people just taking the job because the money is good.  You need people with heart.
 
2013-07-30 07:20:36 PM  

Weaver95: Debeo Summa Credo:
Again, when you start your business, pay the CEO no more than he's worth. With paying only fair wages to everyone, you should be able to offer a quality product at a fair price, crushing the inefficient corporations who waste all their money on executive pay.

are you familiar with how Costco is run?  you might find it interesting to see how their CEO runs the business, find out how his company stacks up against WalMart.

You don't own McDonald's. It's none of your farking business what they decide to offer in wages or salary to ANY of their workers.

It bothers you that I question your false and unsupported assumptions doesn't it?  interesting indeed to observe....


Are you familiar with how McDonald's and Walmart are run? They are tremendously successful businesses, operating in a low cost structre.

Costco has decided to occupy a niche where higher quality employees can provide better service to customers. Good for them.

There are many introductory economics textbooks that can help you. Some are available from public libraries, if you are short of cash.
 
2013-07-30 07:20:38 PM  

Aarontology: Voiceofreason01: Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.

cut both, create a feudal system, blame Obama?

No, it's cool. It'll trickle down! One of these days.


i.qkme.me
 
2013-07-30 07:21:05 PM  

Full Metal Retard: There is no need to raise pay unless you are unable to find workers.

The world does not magically owe lazy fark ups $500,000 a year.

And I doubt the magical number too.  It's just a number invented by some politically correct brainwashed student who has never run a business.


at least you live up to your name
 
2013-07-30 07:21:20 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: /If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.


It doesn't matter how marginal a job at McDonald's is colloquially, in reality it's where half a million Americans eat and work. They call the job a "job" and the meal a "meal". If the job or meal isn't legitimate, they shouldn't be allowed to call it that.
 
2013-07-30 07:21:27 PM  

CaliNJGuy: The world needs ditch diggers too.  Should McDonalds workers be paid more than the min. wage?  That's a debate worth having.  Should they be paid twice that?  No.  Want to make more than that and work at McDonalds?  Start at min. wage and work your way up through shift supervisor to mgmt.  Don't like it?  Too farking bad.  That's the way the world works.  And I don't want to try one of your stupid apple pies today either.


An alternate way of looking at this would be that they would have more bargaining power if they actually had skills that gave them other viable options. In other words, it's an education problem.

Until you do something about the teeming horde of replacements who also have no hope of earning more anywhere else, this will never work. They'll just slave-drive the poor bastards twice as hard and hire half as many, knowing they have nowhere else to go.
 
2013-07-30 07:21:27 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: More people earning more money will allow them to spend more in their local economies supporting other businesses that will then earn more profits and be able to expand hiring more employees and creating more jobs.


If only it was this simple.
 
2013-07-30 07:21:31 PM  

Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.


Who decides what a CEO is worth?
 
2013-07-30 07:21:43 PM  
How about $15 minimum over the supply chain?
The minimum wage in Australia is about $15/hr and a big mac meal costs about $8.15 for a medium (small drink, small fries in US).  The version of Burger King won't give you much for $9 and KFC lunch box (chicken sandwich or two pieces, fries, small mashed potato and a can of soft drink) is $10 even.
 
2013-07-30 07:21:50 PM  

Full Metal Retard: There is no need to raise pay unless you are unable to find workers.

The world does not magically owe lazy fark ups $500,000 a year.

And I doubt the magical number too.  It's just a number invented by some politically correct brainwashed student who has never run a business.


$15 an hour x 40 hours per week by 50 working weeks per year (assume two weeks vacation) is $30,000.  Not a princely sum by any means, but at least enough to support yourself in most of the country without welfare programs.
 
2013-07-30 07:21:57 PM  
without analyzing shiat....

ask yourself this.

Do you think someone has a GED from high school, wears his pants at the bottom of his ass, and really really sucks at math... do you think they are worth $15/hour?

The reason you are paid minimum wage is because you are more than likely a person who always achieved the minimum in life. Grades/savings/common sense. I'd be willing to bet a sizeable sum that even if you put all that extra money into the hands of "those people" they wouldn't know to handle is properly.  They wouldn't pay off their credit cards, or student loans, it would be spent on dumb crap that dumb people like to buy.  Rims, booze, cigarettes, partying, eating out, a new car you (still) really can't afford.

In case you haven't noticed -- increasing the minimum wage does nothing in the long run to give anyone a better life.
 
2013-07-30 07:22:06 PM  
Debeo Summa Credo:
Are you familiar with how McDonald's and Walmart are run? They are tremendously successful businesses, operating in a low cost structre.

Costco has decided to occupy a niche where higher quality employees can provide better service to customers. Good for them.

There are many introductory economics textbooks that can help you. Some are available from public libraries, if you are short of cash.


zing and dodge!  nicely done sir! nicely done indeed!
 
2013-07-30 07:22:07 PM  
I don't think people realize that, someday down the road (probably on the order of decades, but who knows),  CONservative policies are going to end up getting a lot of people lined up on the wall and shot.

Some of those people probably deserve it, but it's a direction nobody wants to go in the long run.  CONservatives must be okay with the eventual communist revolution that our country is headed towards.
 
2013-07-30 07:22:37 PM  

ArkAngel: gilgigamesh: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

If the suppliers etc are union shops and their members are only making minimum wage, those are officially the worst unions ever.

But if the people working in the factories are making the same $15/hr minimum wage that the McJobbers are, they're gonna revolt.


Yeah, thats the problem, unless you work in a Union shop where you get raises when min wage goes up you still make the same but everything else costs more because min wage went up.

The jobs that make 15/hr now with 7.25 min wage where making 15 /hr like 20 years ago when min wage was 4.25.

15/ hr with 7.25 min wage will buy about what 9/hr would when min was 4.25.
 
2013-07-30 07:23:03 PM  
Yeah, your right to get cheap-ass food far outweighs those people's right to earn enough to lead a decent life.

people's right to earn enough to lead a decent life.

people's right to earn enough

people's right

right


wrong.
 
2013-07-30 07:23:07 PM  
Probably already said, but do demand curves still slope down?  If so, qty falls with increasing price, and so will revenue and therefore profit.

Also, do any other input costs increase with increasing minimum wage?

Horrifically hackneyed economic analysis is horrifically hackneyed.
 
2013-07-30 07:23:19 PM  
McDonalds has an unjustified bad reputation.  The McJobs thing is simply stupid.  My wife works for McDonalds in the UK as front of counter staff and earns significantly more than minimum wage after being there for only 6 months. They have placed her on an education programme and she has complete flexible hours,  The only annoyance for us is their insistence that she completes the adult literacy and numeracy training as she gained her degree over 10 years ago so they do not count it as "recent".  I can see why they do it, but on a personal level it is annoying.

To be honest earnings are based on supply and demand, when the supply outstrips the demand, remuneration drops.  Exactly as happened in a lot of high tech industries when India, China, Vietnam and so on created the offshoring market.

McDonalds may not pay the best wages in the world, but they don't pay the worst in the western world either, and they do spend a lot of time and money on training and developing staff in skills that are transferable away from the food service industry.
 
2013-07-30 07:23:29 PM  

Weaver95: Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: you're another one who failed economics, aren't you?


MY business is doing just fine... so I guess I passed.

well of course it is, you special little snowflake you....


Funny how so many successful small businessmen with thriving businesses spend hours on Fark everyday spouting political bullshiat, isn't it?

Even funnier that they're all always right wing assholes.
 
2013-07-30 07:24:35 PM  
...according to some random undergraduate from some random university.
 
2013-07-30 07:24:42 PM  

DON.MAC: How about $15 minimum over the supply chain?
The minimum wage in Australia is about $15/hr and a big mac meal costs about $8.15 for a medium (small drink, small fries in US).  The version of Burger King won't give you much for $9 and KFC lunch box (chicken sandwich or two pieces, fries, small mashed potato and a can of soft drink) is $10 even.


It's as if purchasing power floats freely and isn't tied to any particular arbitrary number of currency.

Freaky.
 
2013-07-30 07:24:47 PM  

taoistlumberjak: I don't think people realize that, someday down the road (probably on the order of decades, but who knows),  CONservative policies are going to end up getting a lot of people lined up on the wall and shot.

Some of those people probably deserve it, but it's a direction nobody wants to go in the long run.  CONservatives must be okay with the eventual communist revolution that our country is headed towards.


Why do you say that?
 
2013-07-30 07:24:53 PM  

BgJonson79: Who decides what a CEO is worth?


The CEOs who sit on his board upon whose boards he sits in one big incestuous circle jerk.
 
2013-07-30 07:25:32 PM  

taoistlumberjak: I don't think people realize that, someday down the road (probably on the order of decades, but who knows),  CONservative policies are going to end up getting a lot of people lined up on the wall and shot.

Some of those people probably deserve it, but it's a direction nobody wants to go in the long run.  CONservatives must be okay with the eventual communist revolution that our country is headed towards.


That's pretty damned evil, man.  I hope you're not serious.
 
2013-07-30 07:25:36 PM  

keylock71: Weaver95: Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: you're another one who failed economics, aren't you?


MY business is doing just fine... so I guess I passed.

well of course it is, you special little snowflake you....

Funny how so many successful small businessmen with thriving businesses spend hours on Fark everyday spouting political bullshiat, isn't it?

Even funnier that they're all always right wing assholes.


I'm starting to think that Fark Independent Businessmen all trade in gold and/or hoverounds.
 
2013-07-30 07:25:56 PM  

BgJonson79: Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.

Who decides what a CEO is worth?


well, basically the CEO stacks the board of directors with his buddies, then tells them that he will give them raises if they make sure he gets a ton of money.  then they vote themselves a ton of money, fire half their workers and move their core business production overseas to take advantage of chinese slave labor and zero environmental protection laws.  sure, they end up with a crappy product and the chinese steal their proprietary manufacturing data but f*ck dude, they're making OODLES of cash!
 
2013-07-30 07:25:57 PM  
Trick question, prices are set to what the market will bear...bare?
 
2013-07-30 07:26:00 PM  

Fano: Voiceofreason01: Pray 4 Mojo:
/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

because everybody can be a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company if they just work hard enough!

/that anybody can become a huge success regardless of their circumstances is probably the biggest lie of the "American Dream"

Well yeah, the world needs ditch diggers, too.


http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/construction-equi pm ent-operators.htm
 
2013-07-30 07:26:12 PM  

7th Son of a 7th Son: basemetal: new study provided to The Huffington Post by a University of Kansas student.

So says a student.

A KU student at that. Equivalent to 3rd grade everywhere else.


You know, it's rare that I call out someone like this, but your outright slander of the intellect of the third-grade community... it's... it's just uncalled for. These third-graders are a good, proud people who have enriched the lives of millions... and here you are, comparing these good individuals to such dastardly and uneducated scum as KU student.

Shame on you, sir. Shame on you.
 
2013-07-30 07:26:13 PM  
People, people, people! Mcdonalds are franchised. The franchisee is responsible for wages and UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, which will also go up.
 
2013-07-30 07:26:18 PM  

bronyaur1: Probably already said, but do demand curves still slope down?  If so, qty falls with increasing price, and so will revenue and therefore profit.



Why should we care about McDonalds' profits more than the welfare of their employees, or the fact that many of their employees have to be on welfare to survive for that matter?

I have no problem with McDonalds taking a hit to their profits in order to better care for their employees.  Of course, MdDonalds won't do this voluntarily, so the options are unionization to level the playing field, the government increasing the minimum wage to a livable one, or creating enough public outrage that it becomes a good business case for McDonalds to do it on their own.
 
2013-07-30 07:26:30 PM  
You're not getting double your pay when actual professionals looking for work can't even find that kind of pay. Deal with it.
 
2013-07-30 07:26:45 PM  
This is true Fark right here.

A link about fast food worker's wages gets pages full of outrage because so many Farkers think they are already earning enough, but many of these complaints are probably coming from people with an 'IT admin' job.

You 'IT' people also complain about your salaries, but you are basically the janitors of 2010.

The only difference is that the fast food workers actually have the balls to try and change things.
 
2013-07-30 07:27:06 PM  

Jodeo: In other news, $15 per hour is a livable wage.
How about become a great worker or an entrepreneur and write your own story.


But, but, but, that would require some level of personal responsibility--(shhh don't say that on FARK).
 
2013-07-30 07:27:22 PM  

marsoft: McDonalds has an unjustified bad reputation.  The McJobs thing is simply stupid.  My wife works for McDonalds in the UK as front of counter staff and earns significantly more than minimum wage after being there for only 6 months.


BTW: Front of counter means she cleans up kids puke and the toilets after truckers have dumped or missed the trap.
 
2013-07-30 07:27:29 PM  

scottydoesntknow: In addition, every item on the Dollar Menu would go up by 17 cents.

If everything on the Dollar Menu costs $1.17, it's no longer a Dollar Menu


"With regards to the size of the breadnaming of the menu and calling it the footlongdollar menu, "DOLLAR MENU" is a registered trademark as a descriptive name for the subitems sold in SubwayMcDonald's® Restaurants and not intended to be a measurementdeclaration of lengthprice."
 
2013-07-30 07:27:31 PM  

BgJonson79: taoistlumberjak: I don't think people realize that, someday down the road (probably on the order of decades, but who knows),  CONservative policies are going to end up getting a lot of people lined up on the wall and shot.

Some of those people probably deserve it, but it's a direction nobody wants to go in the long run.  CONservatives must be okay with the eventual communist revolution that our country is headed towards.

Why do you say that?


BeCAUse of those dAMn dirty CONservatives. tHAT's why.
 
2013-07-30 07:27:34 PM  

WhyteRaven74: ReapTheChaos: After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.

If that was the case then it would be impossible for purchasing power to ever increase. Only thing is between 1947 and 1980 real purchasing power doubled.


That has nothing to do with minimum wage and everything to do with the fact that every year, innovation and technological developments increase the per capita production, energy and food harvesting capabilities of our society. That drives an increase in wages and a corresponding inflation. If you are not productive, you either live off social or personal charity. Some people have welfare, some are married or live with family/friends. Be content that we don't let poor people starve anymore, and get on with struggling to survive like everyone else who doesn't work for the government, or have Congress in their pockets.
 
2013-07-30 07:28:00 PM  

ReapTheChaos: Marcus Aurelius: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

Thank God you are nowhere near reality.

Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.

While companies like Walmart and McDonald's probably could pay $15 and hour by only raising prices on each item they sell a few cents, most smaller businesses would go bankrupt if they had to pay that much. Not only that, but other people start demanding pay raises as well. People with skills and experience who were making $15-20 an hour before minimum wage went up are going to demand an appropriate raise as well, and by all rights they deserve it.

After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.


So, is the solution to have a war, draft everyone that's poor, ship them to the front, and hope they all die?
 
2013-07-30 07:28:01 PM  
comedycentral.mtvnimages.com

/Calvin's got a job!
 
2013-07-30 07:28:32 PM  

vernonFL: If you eat at McDonald's more than once or twice a year,  you are a bad person and you should feel bad about yourself.

Shame on you.


1 shamrock shake in march
364 days of regret
 
2013-07-30 07:28:38 PM  

Weaver95: Pray 4 Mojo: V

I work with minimum wage employees all the time... there's a reason they are minimum wage employees.

I work with managers and vice presidents all the time, as well as with doctors and accountants.  some are good at their jobs, some clearly have no business being where they are, and most just wanna get the job done and go home for a beer and maybe mow the lawn before the sun goes down.  which has about as much relevance as your statement here - its been my experience that if you underpay someone you get what you pay for.  if there isn't any incentive for an employee to actually participate, then yeah - you'll probably get crappy employees.  welcome to human nature 101.  offer someone a real wage increase for doing a good job and hey, i'll bet you get good employees.  not just an extra .60 cents either, I mean $25 bucks an hour if they show up and work for it.


My use of "they" refers to the ones that I actually have experience with... I certainly don't know every minimum wage employee.

If my minimum wage employees are crappy employees BECAUSE I'm paying them minimum wage... then they are crappy employees. Show up early, be smart, work hard and learn... you will get more responsibility and income.
 
2013-07-30 07:28:39 PM  

generallyso: BgJonson79: Who decides what a CEO is worth?

The CEOs who sit on his board upon whose boards he sits in one big incestuous circle jerk.


And the shareholders have no say at all?
 
2013-07-30 07:28:58 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: You don't own McDonald's. It's none of your farking business what they decide to offer in wages or salary to ANY of their workers.


It is if they pay their workers so little that MY tax dollars end up having to provide food stamps and welfare for them.

Though you probably want to eliminate those, too.
 
2013-07-30 07:29:21 PM  

Weaver95: BgJonson79: Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.

Who decides what a CEO is worth?

well, basically the CEO stacks the board of directors with his buddies, then tells them that he will give them raises if they make sure he gets a ton of money.  then they vote themselves a ton of money, fire half their workers and move their core business production overseas to take advantage of chinese slave labor and zero environmental protection laws.  sure, they end up with a crappy product and the chinese steal their proprietary manufacturing data but f*ck dude, they're making OODLES of cash!


And shareholders bring nothing to the table?
 
2013-07-30 07:29:28 PM  
Headline made me think it would be a really low number. My guess was 5 cents, so 68 cents sounds really high.

Imagine any other store/business suddenly saying "we're going to raise our prices 17%". You would say "screw that!" and go someplace else. You can't simply jack up prices and hand over money to employees. Economics don't work that way.

Dumb article is dumb, the University of Kansas should be embarrassed by this student and he should fail.
 
2013-07-30 07:30:13 PM  
the big mac is a rip-off anyway. too much bread.

double quarter pounders are where it's at... or, if you're a man, you can drive up the street to BK and get a triple whopper with cheese and bacon.

/i sound fat
//i'm thinner than you
/// 6'2", 155 lbs
 
2013-07-30 07:30:28 PM  

freewill: CaliNJGuy: The world needs ditch diggers too.  Should McDonalds workers be paid more than the min. wage?  That's a debate worth having.  Should they be paid twice that?  No.  Want to make more than that and work at McDonalds?  Start at min. wage and work your way up through shift supervisor to mgmt.  Don't like it?  Too farking bad.  That's the way the world works.  And I don't want to try one of your stupid apple pies today either.

An alternate way of looking at this would be that they would have more bargaining power if they actually had skills that gave them other viable options. In other words, it's an education problem.

Until you do something about the teeming horde of replacements who also have no hope of earning more anywhere else, this will never work. They'll just slave-drive the poor bastards twice as hard and hire half as many, knowing they have nowhere else to go.


I do agree with you to an extent, however in my line of work I see a lot of different retail sectors at work.  A supermarket manager in a major chain makes pretty darn good money.  Vacation home in the Bahamas money?  No but I see a lot of them pulling up into work in BMW's, Acuras and the like and most of them didn't go to college.  They started as a bag boy/person and worked their way up.  I don't have a college degree but w/overtime I'm pulling $60K - $65K a year.  I work hard.  Entry level jobs are just that and they deserve entry level pay.  That doesn't always have to mean min. wage but to the person working a McDonalds counter complaining they can't feed their family of two kids on it I say "no shiat".  It's a competitive world in both the white and blue collar arena.  If you don't do something to stand out and get noticed in a positive manner you'll get passed by again and again.  And the bottom line is not everybody deserves to get promoted.
 
2013-07-30 07:30:41 PM  

fusillade762: Debeo Summa Credo: You don't own McDonald's. It's none of your farking business what they decide to offer in wages or salary to ANY of their workers.

It is if they pay their workers so little that MY tax dollars end up having to provide food stamps and welfare for them.

Though you probably want to eliminate those, too.


You don't support the freedom to fail?
 
2013-07-30 07:30:45 PM  
I don't eat fast food so I don't care what the employees earn.
 
2013-07-30 07:31:00 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Pray 4 Mojo:
/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

because everybody can be a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company if they just work hard enough!

/that anybody can become a huge success regardless of their circumstances is probably the biggest lie of the "American Dream"


Because those are the only two choices, right?

/ Self-taught programmer who still hasn't finished a college degree. $78k, a month's paid vacation, full benefits, and a couple free trips to Manhattan every year while living in a cheap Rust Belt town.
 
2013-07-30 07:31:05 PM  
That's some retard logic in that article.
 
2013-07-30 07:31:11 PM  
Pray 4 Mojo:
If my minimum wage employees are crappy employees BECAUSE I'm paying them minimum wage... then they are crappy employees. Show up early, be smart, work hard and learn... you will get more responsibility and income.

But that's not how it works in the majority of min wage work places.  Take walmart for example - you work your best...you get shiat on.  you show up and do the bare minimum...you get shiat on.  there's no incentive to work hard because you won't ever be rewarded for it.  in fact there's every reason to believe you'll actually be punished for it.
 
2013-07-30 07:31:15 PM  
What's wrong with getting an education and then a higher paying, more fulfilling career?
 
2013-07-30 07:31:24 PM  
Yes, jobs like working the fryer at McDonald's is supposed to be an entry-level position in the workforce. The holy Job Creators™ are supposed to be creating jobs to advance into, but we haven't seen much of that in the last 10 years, and all the while their share of income has skyrocketed.

Don't be surprised when people start looking into more coercive options when it comes to improving their lot when the monied classes aren't holding up their end of the social contract.
 
2013-07-30 07:31:32 PM  
Hardly anyone works for McDonalds.  Those persons work for franchisees
 
2013-07-30 07:31:39 PM  

The_Original_Roxtar: the big mac is a rip-off anyway. too much bread.

double quarter pounders are where it's at... or, if you're a man, you can drive up the street to BK and get a triple whopper with cheese and bacon.

/i sound fat
//i'm thinner than you
/// 6'2", 155 lbs


Look up skinnyfat.
 
2013-07-30 07:32:13 PM  
And no link to the original research. Or did I miss it?
 
2013-07-30 07:32:29 PM  
Getting paid anything for working at McDonalds is a blessing for people who cannot achieve anything more in life than working at McDonalds.

/That blessing, you uneducated, unskilled, ability lacking degenerates.
//Count it if you can.
 
2013-07-30 07:32:42 PM  
If we accept that we will continue to need fast food workers and we will continue to have un-/under-educated folks who fill fast food positions, would you rather:

a) see their wages go up so they stop needing welfare;
b) continue to have your tax dollars go to the welfare assistance that makes up the difference in their wages, and subsidizes McDonald's payroll; or
c) keep their wages low and abolish welfare, so that they either end up in jail, die of starvation, and/or come murder you in the middle of the night?

I don't see an option d).
 
2013-07-30 07:32:51 PM  

freewill: Voiceofreason01: Pray 4 Mojo:
/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

because everybody can be a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company if they just work hard enough!

/that anybody can become a huge success regardless of their circumstances is probably the biggest lie of the "American Dream"

Because those are the only two choices, right?

/ Self-taught programmer who still hasn't finished a college degree. $78k, a month's paid vacation, full benefits, and a couple free trips to Manhattan every year while living in a cheap Rust Belt town.


*snarky remark about bootstraps and privilege*
 
2013-07-30 07:33:20 PM  
I think that we should DROP the price of a Big Mac so it's cheaper like it should be.
And then let them drop the wages to reflect that drop.

Why is no one offering this? I want to pay LESS for craptacular poison food.
 
2013-07-30 07:33:21 PM  
freewill:
An alternate way of looking at this would be that they would have more bargaining power if they actually had skills that gave them other viable options. In other words, it's an education problem.

Until you do something about the teeming horde of replacements who also have no hope of earning more anywhere else, this will never work. They'll just slave-drive the poor bastards twice as hard and hire half as many, knowing they have nowhere else to go.


except that isn't the way it works. At a lot of companies(unless you have a particular combination of rare and valuable skills or through nepotism) you get paid a "market average" that's basically a lowball number that includes what the "value firm" down the roads pays their peons workers and doesn't(or just barely) takes in to account any experience or other skills you bring to the job.

And I know everybody on FARK either owns their own successful company or is a technology genius but the vast majority of people in this country get paid that way. And with more States passing laws making it difficult for workers to organize there's really nothing to stop companies from paying (especially low level) employees anything they want.

The idea that the market magically pays workers what they are worth is a myth.
 
2013-07-30 07:33:47 PM  

BgJonson79: Weaver95: BgJonson79: Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.

Who decides what a CEO is worth?

well, basically the CEO stacks the board of directors with his buddies, then tells them that he will give them raises if they make sure he gets a ton of money.  then they vote themselves a ton of money, fire half their workers and move their core business production overseas to take advantage of chinese slave labor and zero environmental protection laws.  sure, they end up with a crappy product and the chinese steal their proprietary manufacturing data but f*ck dude, they're making OODLES of cash!

And shareholders bring nothing to the table?


non-binding resolutions only.  no joke either - shareholders don't have any direct input on what a CEO gets paid, or what their compensation package looks like.  In many cases a CEO can stack a board of directors with his buddies or yes men and get away with quite a lot of economic perversions of math and money.  shareholders can try to force a CEO out but in a lot of cases most either don't care enough to try (because they're getting a decent return on their investment) or they really don't know what's going on with the company they're invested in at the time.
 
2013-07-30 07:33:47 PM  

Cabbages: What's wrong with getting an education and then a higher paying, more fulfilling career?


Dude, wtf kind of question is this?

You are on Fark.

A 'career' here means you have an IT job where you handle the support desk for 50 pc's and 7 ipads.
 
2013-07-30 07:34:04 PM  

MBrady: Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.

Or you can go to college and get a degree so you can get a better job and get good wages.

Most people don't make working in fast food a career move (unless it involves management).   If you do,  you might just be a liberal arts college student (or graduate) living in your mom's basement - and you deserve it.

If you chose to stay at a minimum wage job for 24 years (like the idiot on cnn today), then you deserve to live in your mom's basement.  In those 24 years, did you ever think of trying to better yourself?


Except, one must get a degree in a major that sets them apart from everyone else.  Which means it's more than likely significantly more difficult to achieve.  My guess is that someone working fast food for twenty-four years simply doesn't have the ability to progress further.
 
2013-07-30 07:34:11 PM  

taoistlumberjak: keylock71: Weaver95: Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: you're another one who failed economics, aren't you?


MY business is doing just fine... so I guess I passed.

well of course it is, you special little snowflake you....

Funny how so many successful small businessmen with thriving businesses spend hours on Fark everyday spouting political bullshiat, isn't it?

Even funnier that they're all always right wing assholes.

I'm starting to think that Fark Independent Businessmen all trade in gold and/or hoverounds.


There's also a lucrative market in angel figurines and teddybears dressed as soldiers... Oh, and 9/11 commemorative coins (with a certificate of authenticity!)
 
2013-07-30 07:34:23 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.


This as close to the actual words, "I got mine, fark you" I have ever seen.
 
2013-07-30 07:34:43 PM  
Well every item would cost more. You don't just get one thing like a Big Mac. It adds up fast.
 
2013-07-30 07:34:43 PM  

keylock71: Weaver95: Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: you're another one who failed economics, aren't you?


MY business is doing just fine... so I guess I passed.

well of course it is, you special little snowflake you....

Funny how so many successful small businessmen with thriving businesses spend hours on Fark everyday spouting political bullshiat, isn't it?

Even funnier that they're all always right wing assholes.


Yeah, the only thing more prevalent than successful entreprenuers on Fark is people who are absolutely sure about how to run a business and that they would be successful, despite having no experience due to the man keeping them down.

Anyway, I just want to know how raising minimum wage to $15/hr doesn't result in commensurate increases in the cost of everything until $15/hr is no different than $7.25/hr in terms of purchasing power. Minimum wage earners suddenly have a lot more money, they are suddenly buying a lot more stuff, but the stuff...stays the same price? Increased demand leads to stagnant prices right?
 
2013-07-30 07:35:11 PM  

BgJonson79: And the shareholders have no say at all?

 


Those are the shareholders.

 
2013-07-30 07:35:25 PM  

Weaver95: BgJonson79: Weaver95: BgJonson79: Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.

Who decides what a CEO is worth?

well, basically the CEO stacks the board of directors with his buddies, then tells them that he will give them raises if they make sure he gets a ton of money.  then they vote themselves a ton of money, fire half their workers and move their core business production overseas to take advantage of chinese slave labor and zero environmental protection laws.  sure, they end up with a crappy product and the chinese steal their proprietary manufacturing data but f*ck dude, they're making OODLES of cash!

And shareholders bring nothing to the table?

non-binding resolutions only.  no joke either - shareholders don't have any direct input on what a CEO gets paid, or what their compensation package looks like.  In many cases a CEO can stack a board of directors with his buddies or yes men and get away with quite a lot of economic perversions of math and money.  shareholders can try to force a CEO out but in a lot of cases most either don't care enough to try (because they're getting a decent return on their investment) or they really don't know what's going on with the company they're invested in at the time.


I think you've nailed it right there when you talked about the good ROI.  Very few people or institutional investors aim for crappy ROIs.
 
2013-07-30 07:35:49 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: I think that we should DROP the price of a Big Mac so it's cheaper like it should be.
And then let them drop the wages to reflect that drop.

Why is no one offering this? I want to pay LESS for craptacular poison food.


Rands Paladin arrives at last!

Fight the good fight! Show them takers!
 
2013-07-30 07:36:18 PM  

generallyso: BgJonson79: And the shareholders have no say at all? 
Those are the shareholders.


So all those large public-sector investment programs mentioned on NPR's Market Place are what... figments of Kai's imagination?
 
2013-07-30 07:36:49 PM  

Warthog: If we accept that we will continue to need fast food workers and we will continue to have un-/under-educated folks who fill fast food positions, would you rather:

a) see their wages go up so they stop needing welfare;
b) continue to have your tax dollars go to the welfare assistance that makes up the difference in their wages, and subsidizes McDonald's payroll; or
c) keep their wages low and abolish welfare, so that they either end up in jail, die of starvation, and/or come murder you in the middle of the night?

I don't see an option d).


I'll take c because I don't see them coming to murder me.
 
2013-07-30 07:36:56 PM  

Weaver95: Pray 4 Mojo:
If my minimum wage employees are crappy employees BECAUSE I'm paying them minimum wage... then they are crappy employees. Show up early, be smart, work hard and learn... you will get more responsibility and income.

But that's not how it works in the majority of min wage work places.  Take walmart for example - you work your best...you get shiat on.  you show up and do the bare minimum...you get shiat on.  there's no incentive to work hard because you won't ever be rewarded for it.  in fact there's every reason to believe you'll actually be punished for it.


Then get some skills and work experience at Walmart... and take them somewhere else.
 
2013-07-30 07:37:11 PM  
McDonalds pays what it pays because it can.

If only there were a way to get millions of people to work cheap and not complain.
Perhaps even come here to America to do it.

Nah, that's crazy talk.
 
2013-07-30 07:37:18 PM  

Deep Contact: Debeo Summa Credo: Deep Contact: They should have 3 scales for min. wage based on age.
15 to 17 would be $3/hr
17 to 21 would be $7/hr
21+ would be $15/hr
Now go do the math.

The math is companies would hire as many teenagers as possible, and avoid hiring adults who have actual financial responsibilities.

Yeah, they'd hire some kids and some 21+'s for experience. So what.


The damned job was intended for teenagers.  To give them part time experience while in school  and money for movies/dating.  Let them have that entry level, no skills niche back, so they can find and learn how to work again .  Unless your management it should be off limits to anyone out of high school .  period.
 
2013-07-30 07:37:19 PM  
The entire economic system is a thinly disguised rouse meant to keep people from seeing that we're all shuffling around intangible numbers to "break even" when it comes to consuming the rough equivalent of our production potential.
 
2013-07-30 07:37:19 PM  

wee: Does that 17% account for FICA, payroll tax, unemployment insurance, etc?  I don't know how they report their numbers.  Still, 17% seems pretty low.  I think retail is like 25% or there abouts.


Don't forget disability, fmla and workman compensation.
 
2013-07-30 07:37:27 PM  

Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.


You're obviously a Democrat. If you thought like a Republican, you'd realize there is another choice: Fu*ck people on minimum wage. Don't raise it a penny. People who make minimum wage need to strive to improve themselves so that they will one day DESERVE to make more money. One way to give them incentive to do this is to remove the safety net: No more welfare. No more food stamps. No more subsidized housing. This is the kind of tough love necessary to rebuild our economy. It's called "compassionate conservatism." It's a win-win for everybody, because it also allows us to give bigger tax cuts to the people with money -- aka the "job creators" -- who will show their generosity and beneficence by using that tax savings to hire more people... at minimum wage, of course.

/yes, they really do think like this
//if you don't believe me, watch Fox News for a while
 
2013-07-30 07:37:33 PM  

BgJonson79: Weaver95: BgJonson79: Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.

Who decides what a CEO is worth?

well, basically the CEO stacks the board of directors with his buddies, then tells them that he will give them raises if they make sure he gets a ton of money.  then they vote themselves a ton of money, fire half their workers and move their core business production overseas to take advantage of chinese slave labor and zero environmental protection laws.  sure, they end up with a crappy product and the chinese steal their proprietary manufacturing data but f*ck dude, they're making OODLES of cash!

And shareholders bring nothing to the table?


Little known fact but the majority of shareholders in publicly listed companies are fund managers for pensions who are supposed to represent the investors.  However, they of course are looking for good dividends which no matter what their investors personal wishes are is their required responsibility to ensure the growth of the pension funds.

Pension fund managers will OK anything that will increase the dividends and/or share values so as to protect their investors.
 
2013-07-30 07:37:46 PM  

Marine1: 7th Son of a 7th Son: basemetal: new study provided to The Huffington Post by a University of Kansas student.

So says a student.

A KU student at that. Equivalent to 3rd grade everywhere else.

You know, it's rare that I call out someone like this, but your outright slander of the intellect of the third-grade community... it's... it's just uncalled for. These third-graders are a good, proud people who have enriched the lives of millions... and here you are, comparing these good individuals to such dastardly and uneducated scum as KU student.

Shame on you, sir. Shame on you.


You're right. I owe the 9 year olds of the world an apology. :(
 
2013-07-30 07:37:52 PM  

Shostie: scottydoesntknow: In addition, every item on the Dollar Menu would go up by 17 cents.

If everything on the Dollar Menu costs $1.17, it's no longer a Dollar Menu

Call it a "Super Value Menu."

PROBLEM SOLVED


meh it's already $1.99 here.  There was not a $5 foot long like everyone else has
 
2013-07-30 07:38:55 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Weaver95: Pray 4 Mojo:
If my minimum wage employees are crappy employees BECAUSE I'm paying them minimum wage... then they are crappy employees. Show up early, be smart, work hard and learn... you will get more responsibility and income.

But that's not how it works in the majority of min wage work places.  Take walmart for example - you work your best...you get shiat on.  you show up and do the bare minimum...you get shiat on.  there's no incentive to work hard because you won't ever be rewarded for it.  in fact there's every reason to believe you'll actually be punished for it.

Then get some skills and work experience at Walmart... and take them somewhere else.


where, exactly?  walmart undermines and destroys the competition.  again - you could try to start your own competing business but...with what money?
 
2013-07-30 07:39:02 PM  
Ohai gais, I can haz what's going on in this thread?
pics.blameitonthevoices.com
 
2013-07-30 07:39:18 PM  

jst3p: Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

This as close to the actual words, "I got mine, fark you" I have ever seen.


It's true though. Those crappy jobs are on the same tier as newspaper delivery boy and Chuck-e-Cheese ball pit attendant. They are generally for teenagers.

A 30-something year old really shouldn't be looking at serious employment in these positions.
 
2013-07-30 07:39:38 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.

Again, when you start your business, pay the CEO no more than he's worth. With paying only fair wages to everyone, you should be able to offer a quality product at a fair price, crushing the inefficient corporations who waste all their money on executive pay.

You don't own McDonald's. It's none of your farking business what they decide to offer in wages or salary to ANY of their workers.


It does when they get tax credits and breaks for creating jobs and we get the tax bill to make sure their employees have luxuries like food and heat because their CEO can't make a budget that corresponds to real farking life.
 
2013-07-30 07:39:43 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

More people earning more money will allow them to spend more in their local economies supporting other businesses that will then earn more profits and be able to expand hiring more employees and creating more jobs.


Increase wages and increase unit cost by 15% across the board everyone will get rich!
 
2013-07-30 07:39:44 PM  
one the crappiest jobs i ever had the misfortune to hold was working for that farkin' clown off an exit of I80 in the summer of 1991

fark that place and all who eat their swill
 
2013-07-30 07:39:51 PM  
there is too godanm many people on the planet, everybody  can't have everything they want all the time. Do your goddanm job and make do with what you get. You don't like your job get  another mother farking job and quit your whinning, pussys
 
2013-07-30 07:39:52 PM  
encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com

ONE MILLION DOLLARS!
 
2013-07-30 07:40:35 PM  

js34603: Yeah, the only thing more prevalent than successful entreprenuers on Fark is people who are absolutely sure about how to run a business and that they would be successful, despite having no experience due to the man keeping them down.


You must be visiting a different Fark than me...
 
2013-07-30 07:41:05 PM  
I propose a minimum wage of $25.00 per hour.

What the hell, I'm not paying for it.
 
2013-07-30 07:41:06 PM  

scottydoesntknow: In addition, every item on the Dollar Menu would go up by 17 cents.

If everything on the Dollar Menu costs $1.17, it's no longer a Dollar Menu


Call it the Fartbongo Menu since he's driving us all to ruin!!!!11elventy!!
 
2013-07-30 07:41:08 PM  

super_grass: *snarky remark about bootstraps and privilege*


The worst thing is that my personal story actually involves seeing a $9/hour job in the classified ads for a town 1,000 miles away that I'd never seen before, getting on a train with less than $1,000 to my name, and living in a seedy motel until I could afford my first apartment, unfurnished, because I didn't want to turn 22 unemployed, living in my dad's basement, in my rural hometown.

If Amtrak weren't SOOOOOOOOOOCIALISM, it'd be the bootstrappiest thing that ever happened outside of wartime. Or something.
 
2013-07-30 07:41:16 PM  

BgJonson79: taoistlumberjak: I don't think people realize that, someday down the road (probably on the order of decades, but who knows),  CONservative policies are going to end up getting a lot of people lined up on the wall and shot.

Some of those people probably deserve it, but it's a direction nobody wants to go in the long run.  CONservatives must be okay with the eventual communist revolution that our country is headed towards.

Why do you say that?


Because at some point, people aren't going to put up with being marginalized by their own government and the people who own the government.
It really is not a road we want to go down.  That's why the CONservatives have to realize that giving everything to the corporations who pay them and nothing to their constituents is bad policy, and try to balance the needs of both.
 
2013-07-30 07:41:32 PM  
Yeah right like I am going to NOT supersize my meal just so the people who made it can live normally.
 
2013-07-30 07:41:33 PM  

super_grass: jst3p: Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

This as close to the actual words, "I got mine, fark you" I have ever seen.

It's true though. Those crappy jobs are on the same tier as newspaper delivery boy and Chuck-e-Cheese ball pit attendant. They are generally for teenagers.

A 30-something year old really shouldn't be looking at serious employment in these positions.


The problem is that we lost a shiat ton of jobs in the last recession and the jobs being created are mostly this type of job. Yelling "get a better job!' at them isn't a viable solution.
 
2013-07-30 07:41:34 PM  
rolladuck:
That has nothing to do with minimum wage and everything to do with the fact that every year, innovation and technological developments increase the per capita production, energy and food harvesting capabilities of our society. That drives an increase in wages and a corresponding inflation. If you are not productive, you either live off social or personal charity. Some people have welfare, some are married or live with family/friends. Be content that we don't let poor people starve anymore, and get on with struggling to survive like everyone else who doesn't work for the government, or have Congress in their pockets.

the real wage in the USA is not any higher now than it was in the 1960's despite average productivity per worker and GDP having risen considerably.

/and people like Mitt Romney use rent seeking "investment" strategies to become multi-millionaires
 
2013-07-30 07:41:34 PM  
Riiight. I'll take huff po's advice on economics.

I'd be broke by Thursday.
 
2013-07-30 07:42:24 PM  

WhyteRaven74: ReapTheChaos: After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.

If that was the case then it would be impossible for purchasing power to ever increase. Only thing is between 1947 and 1980 real purchasing power doubled.


It did not - and would not - do so because of forced market manipulation.
 
2013-07-30 07:42:49 PM  
I'm not a business major, but I remember reading somewhere about payroll taxes paid by employers. You pay a tax based on how much you pay your employees. The more they get paid, the higher your payroll tax.

I think the student needs to crunch those numbers again.
 
2013-07-30 07:42:57 PM  

accelerus: without analyzing shiat....

ask yourself this.

Do you think someone has a GED from high school, wears his pants at the bottom of his ass, and really really sucks at math... do you think they are worth $15/hour?

The reason you are paid minimum wage is because you are more than likely a person who always achieved the minimum in life. Grades/savings/common sense. I'd be willing to bet a sizeable sum that even if you put all that extra money into the hands of "those people" they wouldn't know to handle is properly.  They wouldn't pay off their credit cards, or student loans, it would be spent on dumb crap that dumb people like to buy.  Rims, booze, cigarettes, partying, eating out, a new car you (still) really can't afford.

In case you haven't noticed -- increasing the minimum wage does nothing in the long run to give anyone a better life.


Yes, they are worth that. You also sound like a closet racist with that dog whistle.

Food for thought - your "middle class" job with an income of 50k/year is basically what a minimum wage job was back in the early '60s.
 
2013-07-30 07:43:49 PM  

Weaver95: Pray 4 Mojo:
If my minimum wage employees are crappy employees BECAUSE I'm paying them minimum wage... then they are crappy employees. Show up early, be smart, work hard and learn... you will get more responsibility and income.

But that's not how it works in the majority of min wage work places.  Take walmart for example - you work your best...you get shiat on.  you show up and do the bare minimum...you get shiat on.  there's no incentive to work hard because you won't ever be rewarded for it.  in fact there's every reason to believe you'll actually be punished for it.


You are a farking moron if you really believe that.

The correct statement is  there's no incentive to work hard because I don't know how to ever be rewarded for it.

There is a reason why MANY people start jobs at WalMart and work their way up to decent salaries - because they are worth more than you. Get used to it.
 
2013-07-30 07:44:16 PM  

BgJonson79: So all those large public-sector investment programs mentioned on NPR's Market Place are what... figments of Kai's imagination?


Those are called table scraps. Virtually all stock is owned by 20% of the population: See the bottom of this page from the Census
 
2013-07-30 07:44:42 PM  

Warthog: If we accept that we will continue to need fast food workers and we will continue to have un-/under-educated folks who fill fast food positions, would you rather:

a) see their wages go up so they stop needing welfare;
b) continue to have your tax dollars go to the welfare assistance that makes up the difference in their wages, and subsidizes McDonald's payroll; or
c) keep their wages low and abolish welfare, so that they either end up in jail, die of starvation, and/or come murder you in the middle of the night?

I don't see an option d).


d) I grill my own superior burger
 
2013-07-30 07:44:47 PM  

Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.


Technically, you could pay half the poor to kill the other half. Sometimes it seems like we're not all that far from there.
 
2013-07-30 07:45:21 PM  

keylock71: js34603: Yeah, the only thing more prevalent than successful entreprenuers on Fark is people who are absolutely sure about how to run a business and that they would be successful, despite having no experience due to the man keeping them down.

You must be visiting a different Fark than me...


I have personally run a failed business, learned from it and run a successful business, learned from that and got into a job that paid far more than I could earn running my own business.  Yes I am in IT, no I am not Gen Y or Z, yes I learned assembler for my first project.  Now I spend most of my time in meetings, conference calls, and recovering from issues in delivery.   In my practice shiat rolls uphill.  I am accountable if anything goes wrong and I protect my guys and gals.
 
2013-07-30 07:45:41 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

More people earning more money will allow them to spend more in their local economies supporting other businesses that will then earn more profits and be able to expand hiring more employees and creating more jobs.


Not even remotely that simple.  More pay = Higher costs.  Companies will not lessen their profits.  That higher pay will also make those who already make more than minimum wage poorer due to the fact they are also paying more.  The only people who benefit are those on the top like always.

The only way to do this properly is to enact a tax against companies that covers any government assistance for the employee.  So if the employee is entitled to a combined 500 dollars of government assistance a month that company pays 500 dollars in additional tax.  They can raise their prices as high as they want and make EVERYONE poor but they still will not be able to maintain their profit margins and all workers would be adequately able to survive.

This is the only way I can think of that has any possibility of working.  Any other method results in company greed winning because they control all of the pieces.  We have to remove their control of the pieces.
 
2013-07-30 07:45:54 PM  

freewill: super_grass: *snarky remark about bootstraps and privilege*

The worst thing is that my personal story actually involves seeing a $9/hour job in the classified ads for a town 1,000 miles away that I'd never seen before, getting on a train with less than $1,000 to my name, and living in a seedy motel until I could afford my first apartment, unfurnished, because I didn't want to turn 22 unemployed, living in my dad's basement, in my rural hometown.

If Amtrak weren't SOOOOOOOOOOCIALISM, it'd be the bootstrappiest thing that ever happened outside of wartime. Or something.


Haha you made me spit out some Miller High Life. I like you.
 
2013-07-30 07:45:57 PM  
If that kind of thinking was applied to all of America and we experienced 17% inflation on all prices across the board overnight there would be blood in the streets as our economy collapsed.
 
2013-07-30 07:45:59 PM  

super_grass: A 30-something year old really shouldn't be looking at serious employment in these positions.


Yeah, in a perfect world, maybe, but in case you haven't noticed, we don't live in one of those... How about a 30 year old mill worker who got laid off and still has a family to support? How about the 30 year old rural resident with very few career opportunities? How about the 30 year old single mother who has to support her children?

Sometimes that minimum wage job is all that some people have available to them. it's real easy to pontificate on the internet when you're not in that position yourself.
 
2013-07-30 07:46:13 PM  

OnlyM3: Riiight. I'll take huff po's advice on economics.

I'd be broke by Thursday.


Your brokitude will mean that you will consume more social services, requiring more government spending, and thus stimulating the economy.

It makes perfect sense if you think about it.
 
2013-07-30 07:46:45 PM  

basemetal: new study provided to The Huffington Post by a University of Kansas student.

So says a student.


I would just like you to stop and think about how dumb that statement is. You may be unaware of this but some of the greatest discoveries in the history of science and medicine were made by grad students. But hey why should facts get in the way of your apathetic, greedy, self centered world view.

Sorry you dumb as fark anti-intellutaulists really piss me off.
 
2013-07-30 07:46:46 PM  
Forty cents
DNRTFA
 
2013-07-30 07:47:44 PM  
You all sound really really fat. And that makes me angry, because I'm really really hungry.

/Could use a hot apple
 
2013-07-30 07:47:47 PM  

OregonVet: Just raise minimum wage to $12 and index it to inflation. Since McD employees already earn more than minimum, according TFA, it will be a bonus for everyone. Problem solved. We'll do ourselves a favor by not having to hear about this crap every year or so....


Have to add that, or else we're just delaying the problem.
 
2013-07-30 07:48:07 PM  

Tourney3p0: puddleonfire: FTA: " would cause the price of a Big Mac to increase just 68 cents, from $3.99 to $4.67"

Who in their right mind would pay $4 for a Big Mac alone when you can get a Double-Double AND fresh-cut fries for a fiver from In n Out?
WHAT A STEAMING PILE.

It sure is.  They both are, actually.  How do you people even eat that crap?   It barely even qualifies as food at that point.


Poison really is a better term. That shiat will kill you.
 
2013-07-30 07:48:14 PM  
Fast Food is where you work when you are figuring out where you want to work.

It's a starting point. It's a highly competitive business. They are not likely to raise prices at the expense of losing business.
 
2013-07-30 07:48:53 PM  
assets.diylol.com
 
2013-07-30 07:49:00 PM  
m.img.brothersoft.com

Yes, by all means let's pay these highly educated and skilled executive chefs a wage more in line with their extensive training and unique abilities.
 
2013-07-30 07:49:35 PM  

marsoft: BgJonson79: Weaver95: BgJonson79: Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.

Who decides what a CEO is worth?

well, basically the CEO stacks the board of directors with his buddies, then tells them that he will give them raises if they make sure he gets a ton of money.  then they vote themselves a ton of money, fire half their workers and move their core business production overseas to take advantage of chinese slave labor and zero environmental protection laws.  sure, they end up with a crappy product and the chinese steal their proprietary manufacturing data but f*ck dude, they're making OODLES of cash!

And shareholders bring nothing to the table?

Little known fact but the majority of shareholders in publicly listed companies are fund managers for pensions who are supposed to represent the investors.  However, they of course are looking for good dividends which no matter what their investors personal wishes are is their required responsibility to ensure the growth of the pension funds.

Pension fund managers will OK anything that will increase the dividends and/or share values so as to protect their investors.


That's how I understand it to work as well.  People don't go to their stockbrokers and say, "Get me a shiatty return on investment!"
 
2013-07-30 07:50:40 PM  

jst3p: Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

This as close to the actual words, "I got mine, fark you" I have ever seen.


Thanks!

In 1992... I was working for a general contractor as a shovel operator for 6 bucks an hour (which I think was CA minimum wage... if not... it was damn close). You know what I did? I worked hard. I didn't complain. I showed up every day. I learned everything I could. I asked for more responsibility. I didn't have kids when I couldn't afford them.

I make a shiatload more than 6 bucks an hour now... and I still work for a GC (a different GC though). And you know what? I still work hard. I still don't complain... etc...

So yeah... fark you. I got mine because I WORK for it. Go get your own... it's not impossible.

Life doesn't owe anybody a farking thing.
 
2013-07-30 07:50:46 PM  

Mrbogey: If that kind of thinking was applied to all of America and we experienced 17% inflation on all prices across the board overnight there would be blood in the streets as our economy collapsed.


Everybody's pay increases by 100%, cost of living increases 17%.  Meaning everybody still has 83% more buying power than before.  And you think people would be upset?
 
2013-07-30 07:51:31 PM  

keylock71: super_grass: A 30-something year old really shouldn't be looking at serious employment in these positions.

Yeah, in a perfect world, maybe, but in case you haven't noticed, we don't live in one of those... How about a 30 year old mill worker who got laid off and still has a family to support? How about the 30 year old rural resident with very few career opportunities? How about the 30 year old single mother who has to support her children?

Sometimes that minimum wage job is all that some people have available to them. it's real easy to pontificate on the internet when you're not in that position yourself.


That still doesn't make 30-year olds depending on these jobs any less wrong. There are people who have been reduced to picking cans too, this doesn't mean that can picking suddenly should be the new middle class job. It just means that there's not enough non-shiatty jobs around.
 
2013-07-30 07:51:42 PM  

pueblonative: Debeo Summa Credo: Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.

Again, when you start your business, pay the CEO no more than he's worth. With paying only fair wages to everyone, you should be able to offer a quality product at a fair price, crushing the inefficient corporations who waste all their money on executive pay.

You don't own McDonald's. It's none of your farking business what they decide to offer in wages or salary to ANY of their workers.

It does when they get tax credits and breaks for creating jobs and we get the tax bill to make sure their employees have luxuries like food and heat because their CEO can't make a budget that corresponds to real farking life.


I can't believe people still actually respond to this shiatstain.........
 
2013-07-30 07:52:40 PM  

generallyso: BgJonson79: So all those large public-sector investment programs mentioned on NPR's Market Place are what... figments of Kai's imagination?

Those are called table scraps. Virtually all stock is owned by 20% of the population: See the bottom of this page from the Census


Are large public-sector investors considered population?
 
2013-07-30 07:53:12 PM  

HeartBurnKid: OregonVet: Just raise minimum wage to $12 and index it to inflation. Since McD employees already earn more than minimum, according TFA, it will be a bonus for everyone. Problem solved. We'll do ourselves a favor by not having to hear about this crap every year or so....

Have to add that, or else we're just delaying the problem.


Of course the real problem is not the minimum wage or such is it money as debt.

Most of the money in the economy is not real.  If everyone was debt free the whole system would crash.  As things stand the only way the system can work is for debt to increase.  This will of course hit a limit where the supply is not sufficient to service the existing debt.  Some say this has already happened and the 2008 crash is the first indication of the collapse.

Read up on how the monetary system actually works, you will be shocked.  Nope I am not some conspiracy nut, I am someone who works in the FS industry and knows how stuff works.
 
2013-07-30 07:53:59 PM  
The author of that "study" doesn't seem to know the first thing about accounting or business finance.
 
2013-07-30 07:54:36 PM  

Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.


If our economy can't afford to raise the minimum wage, what makes you think we can afford welfare handouts?
 
2013-07-30 07:54:51 PM  
This is not how much more a Big Mac would cost the McDonalds corporation if all employee salaries were to double; this is how much more a Big Mac would cost the Mcdonalds corporation if all employee salaries were to double and McDonalds wanted to maintain the same level of profit. Products are not priced based on careful calculation of cost of labor, training, materials, facilities, etc., but those form the minimum to sustain a company whereas a company is willing to find the maximum a market will spend on a product. When cost of labor, materials, and so forth increase, products are priced higher, and when cost of labor, materials, and so forth decrease, products remain the same cost for longer because we know the market will spend this maximum on a product.

Being able to generate less of a profit is not a loss...
 
2013-07-30 07:54:59 PM  

Jon iz teh kewl: can't we raise it like HALF that.
i mean seriously.


Buy a McD franchise and pay the people who work there whatever you want.
 
2013-07-30 07:55:15 PM  

Bobbinsworth: The damned job was intended for teenagers. To give them part time experience while in school and money for movies/dating. Let them have that entry level, no skills niche back, so they can find and learn how to work again . Unless your management it should be off limits to anyone out of high school . period.


In the 70's - 80's  US, yes. Unfortunately, we've switched from a consumer based economy that was sustained by over a hundred million people with middle and lower class manufacturing jobs to a serviced based economy with few manufacturing jobs available.
 
2013-07-30 07:55:41 PM  
Hmmm.  How much would it cost if we cut their pay in half?  Let's look into that instead.
 
2013-07-30 07:55:56 PM  
Why not let employers pay what the job is worth and have the government just pay welfare to people that need it?  That way the cost of subsidizing low-value jobs doesn't fall entirely on the people providing those jobs and teenagers who aren't supporting a family aren't getting an artificially inflated wage.
 
2013-07-30 07:56:53 PM  

BgJonson79: Are large public-sector investors considered population?


Yes. See the footnote.
 
2013-07-30 07:56:58 PM  

Weaver95: I've always been puzzled by ayn rand cultists who get VERY upset when min wage workers start acting in their own rational self interest.

Rand Cult: 'go forth and screw over anyone/everyone to advance yourselves!'
workers: 'ok, lets form a powerful union, bring our corporate CEO to his knees, and make our lives better.'
Rand Cult: 'hey you can't DO that!?  it's WRONG!'


They aren't acting in their own interests. They want others (the government to).  I worked in retail once.  I used it to help pay my way in school and find greener fields.  I didn't expect the retailer to pay me what I make now. I went out and found a different job.
 
2013-07-30 07:57:12 PM  

generallyso: See the bottom of this page from the Census


Funny aside: There are a few places where the poorer bands have a higher % of their money in stocks, which I can't explain. (Maybe it's just me, but I've never had $20,000 in General Dynamics stock + living out on an abandoned pier off of Mississippi with no job for a whole year.)
 
2013-07-30 07:57:23 PM  

Mouser: Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.

If our economy can't afford to raise the minimum wage, what makes you think we can afford welfare handouts?


Macroeconomics doesn't work that way.

You can always borrow or release more dollars, always. And it rarely becomes unsustainable for reserve currencies such as the US$, if ever.
 
2013-07-30 07:57:46 PM  

Fark Me To Tears: Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.

You're obviously a Democrat. If you thought like a Republican, you'd realize there is another choice: Fu*ck people on minimum wage. Don't raise it a penny. People who make minimum wage need to strive to improve themselves so that they will one day DESERVE to make more money. One way to give them incentive to do this is to remove the safety net: No more welfare. No more food stamps. No more subsidized housing. This is the kind of tough love necessary to rebuild our economy. It's called "compassionate conservatism." It's a win-win for everybody, because it also allows us to give bigger tax cuts to the people with money -- aka the "job creators" -- who will show their generosity and beneficence by using that tax savings to hire more people... at minimum wage, of course.

/yes, they really do think like this
//if you don't believe me, watch Fox News for a while


I believe this is why most Fox News watchers own more than one high powered fire arm.  They know, deep in their hearts, that thanks to their policies of marginalizing the under class a revolution is coming.  I think on a certain level they welcome it, as they think GodTM will ensure that they're the ones who win the war.

Marie Antionette, when told there was no bread for the commoners, said "let them eat cake."  John Boehner (or his future equivalent), when told that the minimum wage is not enough to let them buy bread, will likely say something to the effect of, "let them get a second job."  What has happened before can easily happen again.  We as a society are not as smart as we think we are.
 
2013-07-30 07:57:49 PM  

Weaver95: Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: you special little snowflake you....


I'm new here, so I haven't 'met' you yet before today.  However, I can say that it hasn't been a pleasure.

oh i'm harmless.  please continue to thrall me with your acumen.  I'm atwitter with all the learning!

tell me more about how screwing over your employees improves performance.  I wish to know more.


New troll bra- dont feed it.
 
2013-07-30 07:57:51 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: jst3p: Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

This as close to the actual words, "I got mine, fark you" I have ever seen.

Thanks!

In 1992... I was working for a general contractor as a shovel operator for 6 bucks an hour (which I think was CA minimum wage... if not... it was damn close). You know what I did? I worked hard. I didn't complain. I showed up every day. I learned everything I could. I asked for more responsibility. I didn't have kids when I couldn't afford them.

I make a shiatload more than 6 bucks an hour now... and I still work for a GC (a different GC though). And you know what? I still work hard. I still don't complain... etc...

So yeah... fark you. I got mine because I WORK for it. Go get your own... it's not impossible.

Life doesn't owe anybody a farking thing.


I got mine too, I went from not being able to finish High School due to the disintegration of my family (drugs and San Quentin) to making a very good salary. I, on the other hand recognize that I didn't do it on my own, (and neither did you, although I am sure you think you did) and it is even harder to do now than when I did it because the wealth gap is getting larger and median wages have been frozen for some time. I am sure you have no problem sleeping at night, nor do I. The difference between us is that one of us realizes you are an ass who has no idea what he is talking about.
 
2013-07-30 07:58:06 PM  
When I read this, I was pissed. I was pissed because I had made less working with special needs clients and getting my ass punched on a daily basis. I could have made more. PLUS, burgers won't hit because they can't express their feelings.  *pout*
 
2013-07-30 07:58:07 PM  

Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.


t.qkme.me

/always wanted to post that, and look, they're all Mexicans, just like behind the counter at McDonalds.
 
2013-07-30 07:58:08 PM  
You are not entitled to anything, snowflake.  Fast food is a job a monkey could do.  You are a wage slave.  Fast Food and Retail are jobs that get you to learn the real world, then you get off your ass and get educated to get out of the doldrums.  If you decided to drop out of high school or you can't go to school because you decided to have 3 kids, that is what normal people call "poor life choices".
 
2013-07-30 07:58:11 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.


According to the sidebar article the average age of fast food workers is 28.  You think we should just write off those people as "failed" and not consider seeing to it they have a reasonable means to contribute back to society?
 
2013-07-30 07:58:31 PM  

keylock71: super_grass: A 30-something year old really shouldn't be looking at serious employment in these positions.

Yeah, in a perfect world, maybe, but in case you haven't noticed, we don't live in one of those... How about a 30 year old mill worker who got laid off and still has a family to support? How about the 30 year old rural resident with very few career opportunities? How about the 30 year old single mother who has to support her children?

Sometimes that minimum wage job is all that some people have available to them. it's real easy to pontificate on the internet when you're not in that position yourself.


Kinda like how easy it is to pontificate about what a CEO or business owner should pay his employees when you're not in that position yourself.

/why stop at $15/hr? Surely the laid off steel worker deserves more and the rural guy definitely needs $20 or $25 an hour, and the single mom at least $50, she's gotta pay for child care
 
2013-07-30 07:59:15 PM  

Rand's lacy underwear: Funny aside: There are a few places where the poorer bands have a higher % of their money in stocks, which I can't explain. (Maybe it's just me, but I've never had $20,000 in General Dynamics stock + living out on an abandoned pier off of Mississippi with no job for a whole year.)


Retirement accounts and other managed funds, as per the footnote.
 
2013-07-30 07:59:24 PM  

Aarontology: ferretman: If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

So when are you going to go ask your boss for a reduction in your pay in order to create jobs?


Probably as soon as Uncle Obama, and his fellow cretins in Congress do.
 
2013-07-30 07:59:26 PM  

DrPainMD: The author of that "study" doesn't seem to know the first thing about accounting or business finance.


Or have any common sense.
 
2013-07-30 07:59:28 PM  

Abox: Why not let employers pay what the job is worth and have the government just pay welfare to people that need it?  That way the cost of subsidizing low-value jobs doesn't fall entirely on the people providing those jobs and teenagers who aren't supporting a family aren't getting an artificially inflated wage.


Employers(mostly) don't pay low level employees what the job is worth, they pay the minimum that they can get away with.
 
2013-07-30 07:59:35 PM  

GORDON: Hmmm.  How much would it cost if we cut their pay in half?  Let's look into that instead.


Yeah cause there is no farking way the CEOs wouldn't just pocket the difference since the public is used to the price already.
 
2013-07-30 07:59:53 PM  
Anyway, I'm out. Bye all.
 
2013-07-30 08:00:35 PM  

jst3p: Pray 4 Mojo: jst3p: Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

This as close to the actual words, "I got mine, fark you" I have ever seen.

Thanks!

In 1992... I was working for a general contractor as a shovel operator for 6 bucks an hour (which I think was CA minimum wage... if not... it was damn close). You know what I did? I worked hard. I didn't complain. I showed up every day. I learned everything I could. I asked for more responsibility. I didn't have kids when I couldn't afford them.

I make a shiatload more than 6 bucks an hour now... and I still work for a GC (a different GC though). And you know what? I still work hard. I still don't complain... etc...

So yeah... fark you. I got mine because I WORK for it. Go get your own... it's not impossible.

Life doesn't owe anybody a farking thing.

I got mine too, I went from not being able to finish High School due to the disintegration of my family (drugs and San Quentin) to making a very good salary. I, on the other hand recognize that I didn't do it on my own, (and neither did you, although I am sure you think you did) and it is even harder to do now than when I did it because the wealth gap is getting larger and median wages have been frozen for some time. I am sure you have no problem sleeping at night, nor do I. The difference between us is that one of us realizes you are an ass who has no idea what he is talking about.


So, in other words, YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT.
 
2013-07-30 08:01:05 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Abox: Why not let employers pay what the job is worth and have the government just pay welfare to people that need it?  That way the cost of subsidizing low-value jobs doesn't fall entirely on the people providing those jobs and teenagers who aren't supporting a family aren't getting an artificially inflated wage.

Employers(mostly) don't pay low level employees what the job is worth, they pay the minimum that they can get away with.



Same thing.
 
2013-07-30 08:01:10 PM  

puddleonfire: [www.wayfaring.com image 190x190]


This guy gets it.
 
2013-07-30 08:01:11 PM  

Frederick: Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

According to the sidebar article the average age of fast food workers is 28.  You think we should just write off those people as "failed" and not consider seeing to it they have a reasonable means to contribute back to society?


Yes.  If you are 28 and working the McD's counter you probably deserve to be there.
 
2013-07-30 08:01:22 PM  
You raise the cost of minimum wage, you raise the asking price of skilled workers to be able to sustain livable conditions because the cost of EVERYTHING else goes up.  Gas, luxuries, food, etc, etc.  Raising minimum wage has a domino effect liberals don't seem to understand.  Because if you raise minimum wage, how many liberals will biatch about the cost of their lattes?
 
2013-07-30 08:01:48 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?


Liberals really believe someone just picks a price out of thin air and that every business has unlimited funds
 
2013-07-30 08:02:01 PM  

pueblonative: GORDON: Hmmm.  How much would it cost if we cut their pay in half?  Let's look into that instead.

Yeah cause there is no farking way the CEOs wouldn't just pocket the difference since the public is used to the price already.


I am willing to take that chance.
 
2013-07-30 08:02:20 PM  

Weaver95: Pray 4 Mojo: Weaver95: Pray 4 Mojo:
If my minimum wage employees are crappy employees BECAUSE I'm paying them minimum wage... then they are crappy employees. Show up early, be smart, work hard and learn... you will get more responsibility and income.

But that's not how it works in the majority of min wage work places.  Take walmart for example - you work your best...you get shiat on.  you show up and do the bare minimum...you get shiat on.  there's no incentive to work hard because you won't ever be rewarded for it.  in fact there's every reason to believe you'll actually be punished for it.

Then get some skills and work experience at Walmart... and take them somewhere else.

where, exactly?  walmart undermines and destroys the competition.  again - you could try to start your own competing business but...with what money?


So... the only places to work are McDonalds and Walmart? In-N-Out Burger and Costco both pay very well for that skill level... go work there.
 
2013-07-30 08:03:27 PM  

Aarontology: You can have good wages, or you can have welfare.

those are your choices.


Well no, we could dismantle the military and stop invading every country on the planet. Then we'd still have money for welfare. Have a wage cap as well of 500X minimum wage, you want to earn more money? pay your employees more.
 
2013-07-30 08:03:40 PM  

marsoft: HeartBurnKid: OregonVet: Just raise minimum wage to $12 and index it to inflation. Since McD employees already earn more than minimum, according TFA, it will be a bonus for everyone. Problem solved. We'll do ourselves a favor by not having to hear about this crap every year or so....

Have to add that, or else we're just delaying the problem.

Of course the real problem is not the minimum wage or such is it money as debt.

Most of the money in the economy is not real.  If everyone was debt free the whole system would crash.  As things stand the only way the system can work is for debt to increase.  This will of course hit a limit where the supply is not sufficient to service the existing debt.  Some say this has already happened and the 2008 crash is the first indication of the collapse.

Read up on how the monetary system actually works, you will be shocked.  Nope I am not some conspiracy nut, I am someone who works in the FS industry and knows how stuff works.


I was wondering when the gold bugs would show up, as if gold had intrinsic value.
 
2013-07-30 08:04:04 PM  

GORDON: jst3p: Pray 4 Mojo: jst3p: Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

This as close to the actual words, "I got mine, fark you" I have ever seen.

Thanks!

In 1992... I was working for a general contractor as a shovel operator for 6 bucks an hour (which I think was CA minimum wage... if not... it was damn close). You know what I did? I worked hard. I didn't complain. I showed up every day. I learned everything I could. I asked for more responsibility. I didn't have kids when I couldn't afford them.

I make a shiatload more than 6 bucks an hour now... and I still work for a GC (a different GC though). And you know what? I still work hard. I still don't complain... etc...

So yeah... fark you. I got mine because I WORK for it. Go get your own... it's not impossible.

Life doesn't owe anybody a farking thing.

I got mine too, I went from not being able to finish High School due to the disintegration of my family (drugs and San Quentin) to making a very good salary. I, on the other hand recognize that I didn't do it on my own, (and neither did you, although I am sure you think you did) and it is even harder to do now than when I did it because the wealth gap is getting larger and median wages have been frozen for some time. I am sure you have no problem sleeping at night, nor do I. The difference between us is that one of us realizes you are an ass who has no idea what he is talking about.

So, in other words, YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT.


Were either he or I born in Somalia we wouldn't have the comfortable lives we do.
 
2013-07-30 08:04:20 PM  

Vangor: This is not how much more a Big Mac would cost the McDonalds corporation if all employee salaries were to double; this is how much more a Big Mac would cost the Mcdonalds corporation if all employee salaries were to double and McDonalds wanted to maintain the same level of profit. Products are not priced based on careful calculation of cost of labor, training, materials, facilities, etc., but those form the minimum to sustain a company whereas a company is willing to find the maximum a market will spend on a product. When cost of labor, materials, and so forth increase, products are priced higher, and when cost of labor, materials, and so forth decrease, products remain the same cost for longer because we know the market will spend this maximum on a product.

Being able to generate less of a profit is not a loss...


You forgot a major thing.  The cost of employing someone is significantly higher than the salary or wages paid to that person.  People who have never run their own business do not realise this.  In a major business like McDonalds the cost of employing someone can be 2 to 3 times their actual salary/wages.

Oh, and to stockholders/shareholders less of a profit is as bad as a loss.  If a company publishes quarterly profits below expectations then often a run on selling shares occurs and that company can go out of business suddenly, even if it is still making a profit.
 
2013-07-30 08:04:21 PM  

Frederick: According to the sidebar article the average age of fast food workers is 28. You think we should just write off those people as "failed" and not consider seeing to it they have a reasonable means to contribute back to society?


yes.
these people have failed.
they provide no benefit to society.
they only serve to produce more leeches upon society.

McJobs are for students, mentally disabled people, and parolees.
 
2013-07-30 08:04:59 PM  

CaliNJGuy: Frederick: Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

According to the sidebar article the average age of fast food workers is 28.  You think we should just write off those people as "failed" and not consider seeing to it they have a reasonable means to contribute back to society?

Yes.  If you are 28 and working the McD's counter you probably deserve to be there.


Depends.

There are losers and there are motivated people down on their luck.

The problem is that there are naive people who think that everyone who works in fast food past 19 is some poor revolutionary put down by DA MAN. I don't have issues helping people find better employment while they bide their time flipping burgers, buy to say that burger flipping is some kind of career deserving of substantial compensation is nonsense.
 
2013-07-30 08:05:05 PM  

oren0: Morelix looked at McDonald's 2012 annual report and discovered that only 17.1 percent of the fast-food giant's revenue goes toward salaries and benefits. In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its more than 500,000 U.S. employees.

Thus, if McDonald's executives wanted to double the salaries of all of its employees and keep profits and other expenses the same, it would need to increase prices by just 17 cents per dollar, according to Morelix.

As has been pointed out above, this is a total failure of economics. Assuming that a 17% increase in prices would result in a 17% increase in revenue is idiocy, because the increased price will result in lower demand and therefore lower sales. If the original statement were true, McDonalds would just raise their prices 17% and earn that much more profit.


Not to mention that if you double the pay of the lowest paid, you're going to have to raise everybody's pay, as supervisors and managers aren't going to work for the same (or less) than the line cooks. And, it's going to increase the p/e ratio and lower the price of your stock (if it took a $1 investment to make $1.25, and now it takes a $1.17 investment to make the same $1.25, investors are going to flee). By the same token, your borrowing costs are going to skyrocket, as you make back much less on each borrowed dollar. The chain reaction goes on and on.

Short version: the person who conducted the "study" is an idiot. "Labor costs are 17 cents per dollar, so doubling wages will only add 17% to the price" is something that nobody who's taken even an intro to business, economics or finance would say.
 
2013-07-30 08:05:19 PM  

generallyso: BgJonson79: Are large public-sector investors considered population?

Yes. See the footnote.


Nice find, thank you!
 
2013-07-30 08:05:22 PM  
Marcus Aurelius: 
Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.


Wow, could you make it any more simplistic? Why not make it $45 an hour and triple the growth?

/libtardonomics
 
2013-07-30 08:05:31 PM  

Frederick: According to the sidebar article the average age of fast food workers is 28.  You think we should just write off those people as "failed" and not consider seeing to it they have a reasonable means to contribute back to society?


Just throwing this out there, but in the age of information services and automation, isn't there a case to be made that even employing these people at minimum wage doing such menial labor is, itself, a concession to unskilled laborers, distributing something to people who would otherwise be unemployed?

I was only partially kidding about the touchscreen and the robotic arm. Even Asian peasants are getting priced out of factory work by machines. Isn't giving them "a means to contribute back to society" more about giving them useful skills, instead of simply inflating the payoff for not having any?
 
2013-07-30 08:05:37 PM  

AllUpInYa: MrBallou: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

Yeah, your right to get cheap-ass food far outweighs those people's right to earn enough to lead a decent life.

FFS people, pay for what you get. People are trying to make a living, just like you.

Did someone force them to take those jobs?


You're funny.
 
2013-07-30 08:06:09 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Actually, another way to look at it would be to say that if you cut the average McDonald's worker's salary in half, to maybe $4.00 an hour or something like that, McDonald's would be able to CUT 68 cents from the price of their Big Macs. That would help make food much more affordable to other people, which might help reduce the almost universal dependency on Food Stamps that Obama has created.

Going even further, if McDonald's cut salaries to but cut the price of Big Macs by LESS than 68 cents, what would happen is that McDonald's would, overall, become more profitable. This, in turn, would give the corporation more money that would eventually find its way back to the very same workers who are supposedly now receiving "lower wages." It's not actually that their wages are getting lower, it's that they're getting less DIRECT money and more INDIRECT money. But it all works out the same in the end -- and, I'm not afraid to say, probably to the benefit of the employee. It's a well known fact that charitable donations are at their lowest ever now, after years of recession. But if profits were to start going up again? Why, it would be like Christmas year-round.

The reality is that life is not an Oprah show. McDonald's can't just walk into their restaurants tomorrow and point at everybody and say, "You get a raise, you get a raise, EVERYBODY GETS A RAISE." They'd love to, but they can't. Because, see, if they do that, everybody gets a raise, sure...but then the price of food goes up, which means even more people go on food stamps, which means profits drop, which means charitable donations drop as well -- and, in the end, everybody gets poorer. Everybody.

Have you ever watched lobsters, subby? A tank of them. Every now and then, one lobster will try to escape. He'll swim up to the top and be just about to get out of the tank. And do you know what those other lobsters will do? I'll tell you. They'll grab him and drag him back down. Right back down there with him.

Don't be a lobster, subby.


This reads like one of those "don't get cable" DirecTV commercials.
 
2013-07-30 08:06:26 PM  

Mrbogey: If that kind of thinking was applied to all of America and we experienced 17% inflation on all prices across the board overnight there would be blood in the streets as our economy collapsed.


You seem to be forgetting that the scenario included doubled salaries.
 
2013-07-30 08:07:03 PM  

yusuf69: Well no, we could dismantle the military and stop invading every country on the planet. Then we'd still have money for welfare.


Difficulty: millions of unemployed defense workers.
 
2013-07-30 08:07:31 PM  

HeartBurnKid: marsoft: HeartBurnKid: OregonVet: Just raise minimum wage to $12 and index it to inflation. Since McD employees already earn more than minimum, according TFA, it will be a bonus for everyone. Problem solved. We'll do ourselves a favor by not having to hear about this crap every year or so....

Have to add that, or else we're just delaying the problem.

Of course the real problem is not the minimum wage or such is it money as debt.

Most of the money in the economy is not real.  If everyone was debt free the whole system would crash.  As things stand the only way the system can work is for debt to increase.  This will of course hit a limit where the supply is not sufficient to service the existing debt.  Some say this has already happened and the 2008 crash is the first indication of the collapse.

Read up on how the monetary system actually works, you will be shocked.  Nope I am not some conspiracy nut, I am someone who works in the FS industry and knows how stuff works.

I was wondering when the gold bugs would show up, as if gold had intrinsic value.


Who said anything about gold?  Just pointing out that with a $1 dollar deposit at a central bank, another bank can lend $100 to someone and $99 just appears out of nowhere.  that money can then be re-lent by another bank and so on.  Gold is just another metal to me.  The problem with money as debt is it has to be repaid.
 
2013-07-30 08:07:32 PM  

super_grass: The problem is that there are naive people who think that everyone who works in fast food past 19 is some poor revolutionary put down by DA MAN. I don't have issues helping people find better employment while they bide their time flipping burgers, buy to say that burger flipping is some kind of career deserving of substantial compensation is nonsense.


Fair enough, but I don't see how the right can claim merit in "trickle down" economics, union busting, deregulation (among many other economic policies) and fight for tax cuts for the job creators, then biatch and moan about the number of food stamps. They see no correlation?
 
2013-07-30 08:07:58 PM  
I am sure they think it's a great idea but think of what happens when they realize that everywhere raised prices 17% to pay staff twice as much. After a 17% increase in rent, phone, electricity, water, car insurance, internet and food they end up finding they are making about just as much. Also as people accept the raise in price McDonalds would probably look at ways to cut cost and soon we have them opening up stores where you walk in and feed a machine dollars for a hamburger that has been under a heat lamp for a few hours but hey at least it's 68 cents cheaper.
 
2013-07-30 08:08:08 PM  

generallyso: Retirement accounts and other managed funds, as per the footnote.


OH I see now. The footnote didn't exactly say that but, of course, that makes sense.
 
2013-07-30 08:08:15 PM  
It would be more straightforward for the federal government to determine what a living wage should be for full-time workers, tax an amount sufficient to cover it, and just give it as a straight wage subsidy for every hour worked. Just restrict the subsidy to American citizens, limit the maximum subsidized time per week to 40 hours, and direct deposit it in an account in the each eligible person's name. Workers could negotiate any additional wages with their employer.

In addition to not needing an employer-mandated minimum wage, most immigration restrictions not related to crime and national security could be removed. Any immigrant who could "take yer jerb" without a subsidy would deserve it.
 
2013-07-30 08:08:56 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Thank God you are nowhere near reality.

Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.


Let me get this straight: you think that if you work all day for $X, and that money is taken from you and given to someone else, who then gives that money back to you on the condition that you work another day for it, that you're better off? Dude, you've just been suckered into working for free.

Economics, for the most part, isn't very complicated. Learn the law of supply and demand and learn Say's Law. That's really all you need to get started.
 
2013-07-30 08:09:04 PM  

ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


While you make a good point in general, the study was not about raising the wages of the suppliers, just McDonalds' employees. In the real world it would probably have a cascading effect. I would be happy to pay $2 extra for a Big Mac if it meant that people were being paid adequately.
 
2013-07-30 08:09:30 PM  

Frederick: Mrbogey: If that kind of thinking was applied to all of America and we experienced 17% inflation on all prices across the board overnight there would be blood in the streets as our economy collapsed.

You seem to be forgetting that the scenario included doubled salaries.


For a small fraction who happens to work in fast food.

Keep in mind that fast food is often the most economic sustenance there is for poor people who don't have the access or knowledge to prepare food that isn't chemistry set in a bun. Doubling the salaries of the few while increasing food costs by almost one fifth for the rest is not going to make things better for most people.
 
2013-07-30 08:10:23 PM  

GORDON: pueblonative: GORDON: Hmmm.  How much would it cost if we cut their pay in half?  Let's look into that instead.

Yeah cause there is no farking way the CEOs wouldn't just pocket the difference since the public is used to the price already.

I am willing to take that chance.


Given my subsidies of McDonalds and others I'm not so lets raise that minimum wage and get people off the welfare roles. And if they try to cut jobs and install robots...well, we've got less of a reason to give those tax cuts and goodies now, don't we?
 
2013-07-30 08:10:30 PM  
Morelix looked at McDonald's 2012 annual report and discovered that only 17.1 percent of the fast-food giant's revenue goes toward salaries and benefits. In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its more than 500,000 U.S. employees.

Some kid pulled down a 10-Q and did some bad math on the back of a napkin and that's what passes for a "study?"  The math does nothing to predict that actual marginal cost per item of raising wages would be.  Nor does it look at loss of revenue when consumers switch to other sources for fast food.  This is why I don't click on most huff-n-puff pieces, the stupidity there is toxic.
 
2013-07-30 08:12:07 PM  
 
2013-07-30 08:12:17 PM  

ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


Lets see... McDonald's spends 34% instead of 17%.  Dollar menu becomes 1.17 menu however their workers have all DOUBLED what they make going from 7.25 to 14.50, hm... in economics that would be called a fantastic deal.  Indeed I've seen companies spend more for less output on other projects.

So why not on their employees?  The inflation effect that is claimed as force such huge production raises is much less than the increase in wages meaning there is more spending power for the employee.  Heck that employee just might finally be able to feed his family at a McDonald's once a week now (meaning more business).
 
2013-07-30 08:13:18 PM  

HeartBurnKid: Mrbogey: If that kind of thinking was applied to all of America and we experienced 17% inflation on all prices across the board overnight there would be blood in the streets as our economy collapsed.

Everybody's pay increases by 100%, cost of living increases 17%.  Meaning everybody still has 83% more buying power than before.  And you think people would be upset?


That's not how it works, which is why there would be a lot of pissed off people.

Everyone's salaries couldn't possibly double and leave only a 17% increase in total cost.
 
2013-07-30 08:14:02 PM  
*raises hand

So if the wage is increased, then wouldn't McDonald's want to hire people who are worth that pay scale therefore shutting out the very people who supposedly need this pay raise? So the currently inept minimum wage workers would be out of work?
 
2013-07-30 08:14:07 PM  

Bumblefark: Weaver95: ferretman:
Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

you failed economics class, didn't you?

History, anyway.


Also English.

/it's fewer jobs, you dolt!
 
2013-07-30 08:14:12 PM  

jst3p: super_grass: The problem is that there are naive people who think that everyone who works in fast food past 19 is some poor revolutionary put down by DA MAN. I don't have issues helping people find better employment while they bide their time flipping burgers, buy to say that burger flipping is some kind of career deserving of substantial compensation is nonsense.

Fair enough, but I don't see how the right can claim merit in "trickle down" economics, union busting, deregulation (among many other economic policies) and fight for tax cuts for the job creators, then biatch and moan about the number of food stamps. They see no correlation?


Because they conflated actual competition and voluntary cooperation with supporting the status quo thanks to decades of politically charged innuendo.
 
2013-07-30 08:14:26 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Morelix looked at McDonald's 2012 annual report and discovered that only 17.1 percent of the fast-food giant's revenue goes toward salaries and benefits. In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its more than 500,000 U.S. employees.

Some kid pulled down a 10-Q and did some bad math on the back of a napkin and that's what passes for a "study?"  The math does nothing to predict that actual marginal cost per item of raising wages would be.  Nor does it look at loss of revenue when consumers switch to other sources for fast food.  This is why I don't click on most huff-n-puff pieces, the stupidity there is toxic.


And if we were only raising the minimum wage on McDs you might have a point. We aren't.
 
2013-07-30 08:14:33 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: So yeah... fark you. I got mine because I WORK for it. Go get your own... it's not impossible.

Life doesn't owe anybody a farking thing.


You sound lucky enough to have never been gravely injured or become terribly sick, or have close relatives who did.  Health and medical expenses are the biggest factors in personal wealth.

So that kid who was going to college until their parent got cancer and lost their job and income -had to quit school and is now working fast food.  Yeah fark him -you got yours.
 
2013-07-30 08:14:40 PM  

freewill: yusuf69: Well no, we could dismantle the military and stop invading every country on the planet. Then we'd still have money for welfare.

Difficulty: millions of unemployed defense workers.


With knowledge of how to build Doomsday weapons. It's a classic case of liberal thinking creating supervillains. If only they had read their Frank Miller.
 
2013-07-30 08:15:13 PM  

Kazrath: The only way to do this properly is to enact a tax against companies that covers any government assistance for the employee.


Like an unemployment benefit tax?
 
2013-07-30 08:15:17 PM  

laughin: *raises hand

So if the wage is increased, then wouldn't McDonald's want to hire people who are worth that pay scale therefore shutting out the very people who supposedly need this pay raise? So the currently inept minimum wage workers would be out of work?


At the McDonald's around here? I'd hope.

/ Once had the woman at the counter take a cell phone call and hand me my unfinished latte. "Here, stir this."
 
2013-07-30 08:15:40 PM  

laughin: *raises hand

So if the wage is increased, then wouldn't McDonald's want to hire people who are worth that pay scale therefore shutting out the very people who supposedly need this pay raise? So the currently inept minimum wage workers would be out of work?


They'd be given cushy jobs in Fiddler's Green or the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
 
2013-07-30 08:15:43 PM  

super_grass: CaliNJGuy: Frederick: Pray 4 Mojo: The Stealth Hippopotamus: 550 million Big Macs are sold in the US every year.

550,000,000 X .68 = 374,000,000.00

If McD thought they could just increase the price of their Big Mac and make an additional 374 million dollars don't you think they would have already done it?!?

This.

Pointless study is pointless.

/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

According to the sidebar article the average age of fast food workers is 28.  You think we should just write off those people as "failed" and not consider seeing to it they have a reasonable means to contribute back to society?

Yes.  If you are 28 and working the McD's counter you probably deserve to be there.

Depends.

There are losers and there are motivated people down on their luck.

The problem is that there are naive people who think that everyone who works in fast food past 19 is some poor revolutionary put down by DA MAN. I don't have issues helping people find better employment while they bide their time flipping burgers, buy to say that burger flipping is some kind of career deserving of substantial compensation is nonsense.


I agree w/the part I highlighted.  But what is the split on that?  95%/5%.  Problem is that the 95% losers all claim they are part of the 5%.  "We're all special".  Bullshiat.  And to PocketNinja's point if you raise the entry level job's salary what do you do about the shift supervisor?  What is their motivation to accept more responsibility if you do that?  Where do you stop?  That study is pointless because it is basically assuming if you just raise the salary of the min. wage jobs its problem solved. Not so.  And if you are a burger flipper then min. wage is proper compensation.  And if you say its not because some of them have BA's in Art History then I say they should have studied something else.  I had a neighbor who paid for one of his daughters to get a Masters in Art History from USC.  I have since moved and haven't seen them for years but last I saw her she was 3 yrs removed from that Masters and working at Kohls.
 
2013-07-30 08:15:56 PM  
LOL.... are they really referencing a "student study".
 
2013-07-30 08:16:17 PM  

pueblonative: GORDON: pueblonative: GORDON: Hmmm.  How much would it cost if we cut their pay in half?  Let's look into that instead.

Yeah cause there is no farking way the CEOs wouldn't just pocket the difference since the public is used to the price already.

I am willing to take that chance.

Given my subsidies of McDonalds and others I'm not so lets raise that minimum wage and get people off the welfare roles. And if they try to cut jobs and install robots...well, we've got less of a reason to give those tax cuts and goodies now, don't we?


SO, your logic is thus:

1.  Subsidize McD's employees by increasing minimum wage.  We now pay more for Big Macs.
2.  This enables McD's employees to "get off welfare."
3.  This encourages HQ McD's to develop robots and cut 75% of the labor force.
4.  The low skill McD's employees are now out of work, on welfare, and we are still paying more for Big Macs because robots cost about the same as a $15/hour employee, once health care and benefit savings are rolled in.

Brilliant plan.  Since robots will be less likely to fark up my order, I am willing to give that a shot.
 
2013-07-30 08:17:14 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Abox: Why not let employers pay what the job is worth and have the government just pay welfare to people that need it?  That way the cost of subsidizing low-value jobs doesn't fall entirely on the people providing those jobs and teenagers who aren't supporting a family aren't getting an artificially inflated wage.

Employers(mostly) don't pay low level employees what the job is worth, they pay the minimum that they can get away with.


The job is worth whatever it costs to get an employee to show up. The employer needs to operate at a profit. The law of supply and demand is in effect here. If there is a labour shortage, wages (and prices) go up. If there is a glut of labour, wages stagnate. The endless supply of poor, desperate (sometimes illegal) immigrants, young people entering the job market, and geezers in need of supplemental income combine to depress wages. Government should not subsidize an employer's decision to try to low-ball the prevailing market cost of labour.
 
2013-07-30 08:19:54 PM  

laughin: *raises hand

So if the wage is increased, then wouldn't McDonald's want to hire people who are worth that pay scale therefore shutting out the very people who supposedly need this pay raise? So the currently inept minimum wage workers would be out of work?


Well those people would all just be paid a non-working minimum wage. We could probably get the kid from Kansas to do up a little study that shows it would only cost and additional 17% of your taxes to pay them not to work.
 
2013-07-30 08:20:37 PM  
Let's face facts here people. Micky D's tastes like crap because it's been cost reduced to the extreme. Why? Because people like those of you reading this didn't want the price to go up as the value of the dollar drops. Micky D's 50 years ago was made from fresh ingredients on site. It was practically health food compared to today.

Wages have similarly suffered under the toll of inflation. Yet americans don't want to deal with the root cause problem. They want the fed being there for the too big to fails. They want the fed to print money for the wars and the social programs. So what's the answer? Double the wages of people who can't move beyond their high school job in fast food or retail. Of course they never say what to do with the people in jobs that require more skills and experience. But sometimes it's not their fault because the other thing the money masters have done, driven jobs out of the country.

It's always a battle to bring a product to market for a price people will pay. A battle not to raise that price on the shelf.

But I digress. What I really want to know is how much more people would pay for their various consumer goods so that engineers can regain in salary what they've lost to inflation and the market being flooded with immigrants on H1B visas. If you're willing to do it for your Big Mac, why not your cell phone, fridge, car, and countless other stuff that is still engineered in the USA. What are you going to do about the horrible way engineers are treated by corporations? Downsizings have made it a vagabond type career. Sure it's enough to live on but hardly worth the education and effort.... and everyone is saying how they have to get the kids into science and engineering for this country to get its competitive edge back... so do something about it... make it a career worth going into again.
 
2013-07-30 08:20:38 PM  

marsoft: You forgot a major thing.  The cost of employing someone is significantly higher than the salary or wages paid to that person.


Nope, didn't forget. The cost of employing someone starts high but decreases as training and assorted investments continue to be used and experience increases profitability of the employee for the company. Several associated costs, such as policies and facilities, decrease over time and have little relation to employing one person or another. Other costs, such as insurance, do not decrease. However, none of this is relevant since we are not speaking of employing additional people but paying those McDonalds is employing a higher wage; the cost of raising wages which is not strictly the cost of those wages is some meetings, paperwork, and data entry which is frankly paltry.

marsoft: Oh, and to stockholders/shareholders less of a profit is as bad as a loss.


Not sure why you told me this. Someone who mentions less profit does not equal a loss understands shareholders, markets, companies, etc., want to interpret this as such for all manner of reasons, else making this statement would be tautological because the reality is less profit is not a loss, this is lower than projected or comparative profit.

But please, continue to argue with my point which was companies do not operate at a zero profit margin.
 
2013-07-30 08:21:37 PM  

keylock71: super_grass: A 30-something year old really shouldn't be looking at serious employment in these positions.

Yeah, in a perfect world, maybe, but in case you haven't noticed, we don't live in one of those... How about a 30 year old mill worker who got laid off and still has a family to support? How about the 30 year old rural resident with very few career opportunities? How about the 30 year old single mother who has to support her children?

Sometimes that minimum wage job is all that some people have available to them. it's real easy to pontificate on the internet when you're not in that position yourself.


You kind of ignored his original statement. How did this 'hypothetical' 30 yr old ignore his or her financial situation for probably about 10 years?

Lets assume 'your 30 year old friend' got this job at age 20...he/she should have been saving at least half of his/her income for the past 10 years. That would give you (sorry, 'your friend') plenty of time to to find a job similar to his/her old income (5 years).

You have other problems if it takes more than 5 years to replace your lost income. Perhaps you were just really overpaid to start with?
 
2013-07-30 08:22:33 PM  

The_Original_Roxtar: Frederick: According to the sidebar article the average age of fast food workers is 28. You think we should just write off those people as "failed" and not consider seeing to it they have a reasonable means to contribute back to society?

yes.
these people have failed.
they provide no benefit to society.
they only serve to produce more leeches upon society.

McJobs are for students, mentally disabled people, and parolees.


You are a terrible human being.
 
2013-07-30 08:22:34 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Actually, another way to look at it would be to say that if you cut the average McDonald's worker's salary in half, to maybe $4.00 an hour or something like that, McDonald's would be able to CUT 68 cents from the price of their Big Macs. That would help make food much more affordable to other people, which might help reduce the almost universal dependency on Food Stamps that Obama has created.

Going even further, if McDonald's cut salaries to but cut the price of Big Macs by LESS than 68 cents, what would happen is that McDonald's would, overall, become more profitable. This, in turn, would give the corporation more money that would eventually find its way back to the very same workers who are supposedly now receiving "lower wages." It's not actually that their wages are getting lower, it's that they're getting less DIRECT money and more INDIRECT money. But it all works out the same in the end -- and, I'm not afraid to say, probably to the benefit of the employee. It's a well known fact that charitable donations are at their lowest ever now, after years of recession. But if profits were to start going up again? Why, it would be like Christmas year-round.

The reality is that life is not an Oprah show. McDonald's can't just walk into their restaurants tomorrow and point at everybody and say, "You get a raise, you get a raise, EVERYBODY GETS A RAISE." They'd love to, but they can't. Because, see, if they do that, everybody gets a raise, sure...but then the price of food goes up, which means even more people go on food stamps, which means profits drop, which means charitable donations drop as well -- and, in the end, everybody gets poorer. Everybody.

Have you ever watched lobsters, subby? A tank of them. Every now and then, one lobster will try to escape. He'll swim up to the top and be just about to get out of the tank. And do you know what those other lobsters will do? I'll tell you. They'll grab him and drag him back down. Right back down there with him.

Don't be ...


Marry me. Sure, I'm already married, but we can work something out.
 
2013-07-30 08:22:47 PM  
The question isn't "how much would I need to raise McDonald's prices in order to increase wages".

The question is "what date are McDonald's workers going to be replaced with robots".

The technology is there today, and getting cheaper all the time.  The cooking is half automated as it is.  Finish the job and use a modified call center AI for the drive through.  Then let people enter their own orders on kiosks with a token human or two to help as needed.

The higher you raise wages, the cheaper the tech looks, and the sooner that date is.
 
2013-07-30 08:22:49 PM  

kg2095: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

While you make a good point in general, the study was not about raising the wages of the suppliers, just McDonalds' employees. In the real world it would probably have a cascading effect. I would be happy to pay $2 extra for a Big Mac if it meant that people were being paid adequately.


If that makes you happy, why don't you tip the person at McDonalds $2 for the Big Mac you buy?
 
2013-07-30 08:22:51 PM  

ReapTheChaos: Marcus Aurelius: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

Thank God you are nowhere near reality.

Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.

While companies like Walmart and McDonald's probably could pay $15 and hour by only raising prices on each item they sell a few cents, most smaller businesses would go bankrupt if they had to pay that much. Not only that, but other people start demanding pay raises as well. People with skills and experience who were making $15-20 an hour before minimum wage went up are going to demand an appropriate raise as well, and by all rights they deserve it.

After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.


Exactly. Price floors and ceilings are just as undesirable as subsidies /welfare. To head anyone off undesirable things are sometimes needed. Most of the people in here fail to grasp a basic concept of elasticity. Things do not operate in a bubble. Even within the bubble this study creates its garbage. If you raise labor costs 50% and raise unit cost ~15-20% you will have to cut labor or some other cost to make up for the lost sales. If you look outside of this stupid study its easy to see that the market will go back to near the same position it was at. If minimum wage increases labor cost increase prices increase this would happen across the entire economy.

Working at a minimum wage job is not a life plan. This isn't bootstrappy that is a fact. If you've work a minimum wage job for over 10 years you have some problems that aren't economic. Adjusting the minimum wage is fine this study doesn't offer anything of substance to help with doing that.
 
2013-07-30 08:23:25 PM  
How much does a McD cheeseburger cost before we raise employees pay?
 
2013-07-30 08:24:54 PM  

Mrbogey: HeartBurnKid: Mrbogey: If that kind of thinking was applied to all of America and we experienced 17% inflation on all prices across the board overnight there would be blood in the streets as our economy collapsed.

Everybody's pay increases by 100%, cost of living increases 17%.  Meaning everybody still has 83% more buying power than before.  And you think people would be upset?

That's not how it works, which is why there would be a lot of pissed off people.

Everyone's salaries couldn't possibly double and leave only a 17% increase in total cost.


I was only indulging your fantasy scenario there.  You know, if "this kind of thinking" was applied across the board or whatever.
 
2013-07-30 08:25:20 PM  

ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


But those people aren't paid by McDonald's. They're paid by their respective companies. Maybe they should be paid more, but maybe they're paid well enough.
 
2013-07-30 08:25:48 PM  

Frederick: Pray 4 Mojo: So yeah... fark you. I got mine because I WORK for it. Go get your own... it's not impossible.

Life doesn't owe anybody a farking thing.

You sound lucky enough to have never been gravely injured or become terribly sick, or have close relatives who did.  Health and medical expenses are the biggest factors in personal wealth.

So that kid who was going to college until their parent got cancer and lost their job and income -had to quit school and is now working fast food.  Yeah fark him -you got yours.


You're right. Our Healthcare system is broken. Easiest solution... let's raise the minimum wage!!!

You may think you have my political beliefs pretty well pinned down because of 5 posts in one thread about McDonalds employees... but you don't.

I'm willing to help people that need help. However... I refuse to accept that I need to subsidize stupidity, laziness and poor decisions in order to help those people.

also... life hard... and it's not fair.
 
2013-07-30 08:26:55 PM  

GORDON: pueblonative: GORDON: pueblonative: GORDON: Hmmm.  How much would it cost if we cut their pay in half?  Let's look into that instead.

Yeah cause there is no farking way the CEOs wouldn't just pocket the difference since the public is used to the price already.

I am willing to take that chance.

Given my subsidies of McDonalds and others I'm not so lets raise that minimum wage and get people off the welfare roles. And if they try to cut jobs and install robots...well, we've got less of a reason to give those tax cuts and goodies now, don't we?

SO, your logic is thus:

1.  Subsidize McD's employees by increasing minimum wage.  We now pay more for Big Macs.
2.  This enables McD's employees to "get off welfare."
3.  This encourages HQ McD's to develop robots and cut 75% of the labor force.
4.  The low skill McD's employees are now out of work, on welfare, and we are still paying more for Big Macs because robots cost about the same as a $15/hour employee, once health care and benefit savings are rolled in.

Brilliant plan.  Since robots will be less likely to fark up my order, I am willing to give that a shot.


Sure they will, sweet cheeks. That's why Watson cleaned up on Chopped after winning big on jeopardy. As for all of these fast food companies suddenly developing amassive R & D budget: if they could have done it they would have, so please procede,sodomites. Oh, but don't expect any tax breaks for Johnny 5 short circuit order chef.
 
2013-07-30 08:27:08 PM  

SomeAmerican: The question isn't "how much would I need to raise McDonald's prices in order to increase wages".

The question is "what date are McDonald's workers going to be replaced with robots".

The technology is there today, and getting cheaper all the time.  The cooking is half automated as it is.  Finish the job and use a modified call center AI for the drive through.  Then let people enter their own orders on kiosks with a token human or two to help as needed.

The higher you raise wages, the cheaper the tech looks, and the sooner that date is.


You may not realize it, but you've actually made a cogent point.  More automation means less jobs are available for the same pool of workers.  We're going to have to confront the issue of what happens when you simply don't have enough jobs to go around.
 
2013-07-30 08:27:23 PM  

scottydoesntknow: In addition, every item on the Dollar Menu would go up by 17 cents.

If everything on the Dollar Menu costs $1.17, it's no longer a Dollar Menu


Just had to throw this in here: LINK
 
2013-07-30 08:29:20 PM  

DerpHerder: ReapTheChaos: Marcus Aurelius: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

Thank God you are nowhere near reality.

Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.

While companies like Walmart and McDonald's probably could pay $15 and hour by only raising prices on each item they sell a few cents, most smaller businesses would go bankrupt if they had to pay that much. Not only that, but other people start demanding pay raises as well. People with skills and experience who were making $15-20 an hour before minimum wage went up are going to demand an appropriate raise as well, and by all rights they deserve it.

After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.

Exactly. Price floors and ceilings are just as undesirable as subsidies /welfare. To head anyone off undesirable things are sometimes needed. Most of the people in here fail to grasp a basic concept of elasticity. Things do not operate in a bubble. Even within the bub ...


I missed the part where you proved that you immediately lose X sales if a product costs X amount more. In your own stupid words, "things do not operate in a bubble." You're just modeling the results based on how you're framing your bubble. I don't have to prove it either way, but your economic model is as brokenly simplistic as what you're trying to refute.
 
2013-07-30 08:30:19 PM  

Tumunga: scottydoesntknow: In addition, every item on the Dollar Menu would go up by 17 cents.

If everything on the Dollar Menu costs $1.17, it's no longer a Dollar Menu

Just had to throw this in here: LINK


That was worth it just for the comments section
 
2013-07-30 08:31:44 PM  

Kazrath: Companies will not lessen their profits.


This is false. Companies lessen their profits all the time as the value of the dollar drops and costs increase. It's the last step before increasing the price. People have in their minds what they will pay for something. People don't give two farks about how much people are being paid or how much raw materials cost or anything else. If people would pay $4.67 for a Big Mac, that's what it would be priced at right now. People only want to pay $3.99 for a Big Mac. So if you raise the costs of the big mac 68 cents then margin has to be reduced and/or other costs have to be cut to compensate. Otherwise if the price goes up and fewer people will buy them driving profits down.  The idea is maximize over all profits, not profits per unit.

Micky D's is a low margin, high volume business. They cannot lose volume. So if you want to increase labor costs then there will be less beef in the patties, the bun will be made with more cheap chemicals, more stuff will be premade in factories and warmed at the location to drive down the number of people needed to be working. They'll cut margins too so long as it is less of a hit than raising the price. Anything to take that cost back out and keep that Big Mac at the price in numerical dollars people are willing to pay.
 
2013-07-30 08:32:26 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Frederick: Pray 4 Mojo: So yeah... fark you. I got mine because I WORK for it. Go get your own... it's not impossible.

Life doesn't owe anybody a farking thing.

You sound lucky enough to have never been gravely injured or become terribly sick, or have close relatives who did.  Health and medical expenses are the biggest factors in personal wealth.

So that kid who was going to college until their parent got cancer and lost their job and income -had to quit school and is now working fast food.  Yeah fark him -you got yours.

You're right. Our Healthcare system is broken. Easiest solution... let's raise the minimum wage!!!

You may think you have my political beliefs pretty well pinned down because of 5 posts in one thread about McDonalds employees... but you don't.

I'm willing to help people that need help. However... I refuse to accept that I need to subsidize stupidity, laziness and poor decisions in order to help those people.

also... life hard... and it's not fair.


then enjoy the shiatty economy your thinking creates
 
2013-07-30 08:33:05 PM  

Aarontology: ferretman: If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

So when are you going to go ask your boss for a reduction in your pay in order to create jobs?


Successfully self employed, could hire but taxes on small businesses is 39.6% (Federal - thanks Obama), plus state taxes...also have mortgage costs and utility costs and other employe's costs plus their healthcare.
 
2013-07-30 08:33:30 PM  

howdoibegin: I missed the part where you proved that you immediately lose X sales if a product costs X amount more.


here

McDonalds was accused at the time of an assault on the homeless for this move.
 
2013-07-30 08:33:53 PM  

howdoibegin: DerpHerder: ReapTheChaos: Marcus Aurelius: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

Thank God you are nowhere near reality.

Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.

While companies like Walmart and McDonald's probably could pay $15 and hour by only raising prices on each item they sell a few cents, most smaller businesses would go bankrupt if they had to pay that much. Not only that, but other people start demanding pay raises as well. People with skills and experience who were making $15-20 an hour before minimum wage went up are going to demand an appropriate raise as well, and by all rights they deserve it.

After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.

Exactly. Price floors and ceilings are just as undesirable as subsidies /welfare. To head anyone off undesirable things are sometimes needed. Most of the people in here fail to grasp a basic concept of elasticity. Things do not operate in a bubble. Even wi ...


If doubling the wages of the McD's counter employee causes the price of a Big Mac to increase, but the salary of the Dollar store worker remains the same, do you propose that the number of Big Mac's purchased by the Dollar store employee will increase, decrease or remain the same?
 
2013-07-30 08:34:38 PM  

leadmetal: People only want to pay $3.99 for a Big Mac.


Am I the only one that was a little shocked to see that a Big Mac is $3.99?

Is that real? Or... is it like... $3.99 at a McD kiosk at LaGuardia or something?

Really... Who the fark would pay $3.99 for a Big Mac?
 
2013-07-30 08:34:53 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

More people earning more money will allow them to spend more in their local economies supporting other businesses that will then earn more profits and be able to expand hiring more employees and creating more jobs.


That argument is as full of magic and pixie dust as trickle-down economics.
 
2013-07-30 08:35:04 PM  

Tumunga: scottydoesntknow: In addition, every item on the Dollar Menu would go up by 17 cents.

If everything on the Dollar Menu costs $1.17, it's no longer a Dollar Menu

Just had to throw this in here: LINK


God dammit. There is not one thing I can say in relation to that video that won't get me a permanent vacation.
 
2013-07-30 08:35:07 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Warthog:

Marie Antionette, when told there was no bread for the commoners, said "let them eat cake."

No, that is a lie that the left likes to hang on to.

But did Marie-Antoinette really say those infuriating words? Not according to historians. Lady Antonia Fraser, author of a biography of the French queen, believes the quote would have been highly uncharacteristic of Marie-Antoinette, an intelligent woman who donated generously to charitable causes and, despite her own undeniably lavish lifestyle, displayed sensitivity towards the poor population of France.


So you're right. She's not a good example of the Modern Conservative at all.
 
2013-07-30 08:36:07 PM  

cowgirl toffee: When I read this, I was pissed. I was pissed because I had made less working with special needs clients and getting my ass punched on a daily basis. I could have made more. PLUS, burgers won't hit because they can't express their feelings.  *pout*


I did that for an amazing $4.92 an hour once upon time

builds character, don't it?

stop self-stemming!
 
2013-07-30 08:36:09 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Pray 4 Mojo: Frederick: Pray 4 Mojo: So yeah... fark you. I got mine because I WORK for it. Go get your own... it's not impossible.

Life doesn't owe anybody a farking thing.

You sound lucky enough to have never been gravely injured or become terribly sick, or have close relatives who did.  Health and medical expenses are the biggest factors in personal wealth.

So that kid who was going to college until their parent got cancer and lost their job and income -had to quit school and is now working fast food.  Yeah fark him -you got yours.

You're right. Our Healthcare system is broken. Easiest solution... let's raise the minimum wage!!!

You may think you have my political beliefs pretty well pinned down because of 5 posts in one thread about McDonalds employees... but you don't.

I'm willing to help people that need help. However... I refuse to accept that I need to subsidize stupidity, laziness and poor decisions in order to help those people.

also... life hard... and it's not fair.

then enjoy the shiatty economy your thinking creates


Are you saying the President shares this thinking or that P4M is responsible for the economy despite what the President does?
 
2013-07-30 08:37:10 PM  

ferretman: Successfully self employed, could hire but taxes on small businesses is 39.6% (Federal - thanks Obama), plus state taxes...also have mortgage costs and utility costs and other employe's costs plus their healthcare.


If increases in wages lead to fewer jobs, could you explain the 50s, when wages grew across the board and there weren't job losses? Also covers the 60s.
 
2013-07-30 08:39:03 PM  

Charles_Nelson_Reilly: That argument is as full of magic and pixie dust as trickle-down economics.


Except it's supported by history, unlike trickle down. Or how do you think small business growth happens without people having growing incomes?
 
2013-07-30 08:39:06 PM  

HeartBurnKid: SomeAmerican: The question isn't "how much would I need to raise McDonald's prices in order to increase wages".

The question is "what date are McDonald's workers going to be replaced with robots".

The technology is there today, and getting cheaper all the time.  The cooking is half automated as it is.  Finish the job and use a modified call center AI for the drive through.  Then let people enter their own orders on kiosks with a token human or two to help as needed.

The higher you raise wages, the cheaper the tech looks, and the sooner that date is.

You may not realize it, but you've actually made a cogent point.  More automation means less jobs are available for the same pool of workers.  We're going to have to confront the issue of what happens when you simply don't have enough jobs to go around.


For some people that point has been reached. There are families where no one has worked for three generations. These people are professional consumers. They are issued section 8 housing, food stamps, a cell phone, and, through native wit, come up with enough loose change for cigs, booze, and dope. It is an economy driven by entitlements and the redistribution of wealth. some are able by dint of hard work to escape from this cycle, but poor schools, low expectations, and bad examples conspire to keep them in a permanent underclass. Fall afoul of the law, and you are pretty much cooked - guaranteed to remain a professional consumer. As automation continues to erode the job market that used to beckon those with a strong bank and weak mind, there will be even fewer jobs to go around. What supervisor will miss a truculent, uneducated youth who (might) show up to work a shift at Mickey Dees, when a reliable 'bot is standing by 24-7 to do the work?
 
2013-07-30 08:40:50 PM  

WhyteRaven74: ferretman: Successfully self employed, could hire but taxes on small businesses is 39.6% (Federal - thanks Obama), plus state taxes...also have mortgage costs and utility costs and other employe's costs plus their healthcare.

If increases in wages lead to fewer jobs, could you explain the 50s, when wages grew across the board and there weren't job losses? Also covers the 60s.


Far less global competition and fewer products manufactured overseas with strong sales in the US.
 
2013-07-30 08:47:37 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: WhyteRaven74: ferretman: Successfully self employed, could hire but taxes on small businesses is 39.6% (Federal - thanks Obama), plus state taxes...also have mortgage costs and utility costs and other employe's costs plus their healthcare.

If increases in wages lead to fewer jobs, could you explain the 50s, when wages grew across the board and there weren't job losses? Also covers the 60s.

Far less global competition and fewer products manufactured overseas with strong sales in the US.


I think I remember something about a war too.
 
2013-07-30 08:47:42 PM  

Charles_Nelson_Reilly: TuteTibiImperes: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

More people earning more money will allow them to spend more in their local economies supporting other businesses that will then earn more profits and be able to expand hiring more employees and creating more jobs.

That argument is as full of magic and pixie dust as trickle-down economics.


Thornton Melon: Oh, you left out a bunch of stuff.
Dr. Phillip Barbay: Oh really? Like what for instance?
Thornton Melon: First of all you're going to have to grease the local politicians for the sudden zoning problems that always come up. Then there's the kickbacks to the carpenters, and if you plan on using any cement in this building I'm sure the teamsters would like to have a little chat with ya, and that'll cost ya. Oh and don't forget a little something for the building inspectors. Then there's long term costs such as waste disposal. I don't know if you're familiar with who runs that business but I assure you it's not the boyscouts.
Dr. Phillip Barbay: That will be quite enough, Mr. Melon! Maybe bribes, kickbacks and Mafia payoffs are how YOU do business! But they are NOT part of the legitimate business world! And they are certainly not part of anything I am doing in this class. Do I make myself clear, Mr. Melon!

Grow up
 
2013-07-30 08:47:46 PM  

Raharu: Rands Paladin arrives at last!

Fight the good fight! Show them takers!


You might want to adjust that sarcasm meter there, sparky.

/worked at McDonalds when minimum wage was less than $4, and a Big Mac was about $2
//I don't want to live in a world with a $7 BigMac.

leadmetal: Micky D's is a low margin, high volume business. They cannot lose volume. So if you want to increase labor costs then there will be less beef in the patties, the bun will be made with more cheap chemicals, more stuff will be premade in factories and warmed at the location to drive down the number of people needed to be working. They'll cut margins too so long as it is less of a hit than raising the price. Anything to take that cost back out and keep that Big Mac at the price in numerical dollars people are willing to pay.


And yet, the price of a BigMac continues to increase. In 25 years, it has MORE than doubled, though minimum wage has gone from 3.85 to 7.50 (less than double).
cwpub.com

Even with inflation, it is clear that despite cutting margins (?), the price is increasing, though presumably volume has not dropped.
 
2013-07-30 08:48:23 PM  

WhyteRaven74: If increases in wages lead to fewer jobs, could you explain the 50s, when wages grew across the board and there weren't job losses? Also covers the 60s.


I'm just throwing this out there off the top of my head, but as far as I know, that was organic wage growth driven by actual demand, not an artificial price floor for labor set by policy. In other words, it didn't lead to job losses because businesses actually needed the work done badly enough that they were willing to pay that much for it.

Whether or not that's true of someone who is primarily tasked with ferrying frozen potatoes to hot oil is up in the air.
 
2013-07-30 08:49:40 PM  
Are the McDonald's in question corporate stores or franchises.   It might make a huge difference if you demand the franchise owner to double the wages.
 
2013-07-30 08:50:37 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

More people earning more money will allow them to spend more in their local economies supporting other businesses that will then earn more profits and be able to expand hiring more employees and creating more jobs.

Not so. As the price rises, the demand decreases, and the facility responds with layoffs. More unemployed people results in fewer poor people being able to buy the product, thus yet another drop in sales, resulting in a second round of layoffs ad infinitum. In the end, say, two months later, everybody on earth will be unemployed and starving to death as the last restaurant closes. Mankind will go extinct, nature will be fully restored to pristine condition, and two horny apes in Africa will restart everything.

For the love of God, slash the wages NOW!

 
2013-07-30 08:52:07 PM  

DON.MAC: How about $15 minimum over the supply chain?
The minimum wage in Australia is about $15/hr and a big mac meal costs about $8.15 for a medium (small drink, small fries in US).  The version of Burger King won't give you much for $9 and KFC lunch box (chicken sandwich or two pieces, fries, small mashed potato and a can of soft drink) is $10 even.


So crap food is more expensive, which means people eat less of it. I don't see a problem here.
 
2013-07-30 08:52:15 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: tenpoundsofcheese: WhyteRaven74: ferretman: Successfully self employed, could hire but taxes on small businesses is 39.6% (Federal - thanks Obama), plus state taxes...also have mortgage costs and utility costs and other employe's costs plus their healthcare.

If increases in wages lead to fewer jobs, could you explain the 50s, when wages grew across the board and there weren't job losses? Also covers the 60s.

Far less global competition and fewer products manufactured overseas with strong sales in the US.

I think I remember something about a war too.


Odd that people don't understand the 50's and 60's.
The US had geared up a huge manufacturing machine due to the war and with many other countries in shambles or relatively embryonic in development (China, India), the US was the place for capital to be deployed.
 
2013-07-30 08:52:28 PM  

HoneyDog: Are the McDonald's in question corporate stores or franchises.   It might make a huge difference if you demand the franchise owner to double the wages.
You are the third person to mention that fact.

 
2013-07-30 08:52:46 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: In 1992... I was working for a general contractor as a shovel operator for 6 bucks an hour


Which is almost exactly $10/hour in 2013 dollars.  So you know.
 
2013-07-30 08:55:47 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: leadmetal: People only want to pay $3.99 for a Big Mac.

Am I the only one that was a little shocked to see that a Big Mac is $3.99?

Is that real? Or... is it like... $3.99 at a McD kiosk at LaGuardia or something?

Really... Who the fark would pay $3.99 for a Big Mac?


A decent burger and fries is like $9 now. Not a great one, just something decent. So by comparison the $3.99 didn't shock me at all.

/Haven't been to MD's in over a decade and only once in the last 20 years.
 
2013-07-30 08:56:15 PM  

vernonFL: If you eat at McDonald's more than once or twice a year,  you are a bad person and you should feel bad about yourself.

Shame on you.


This is for you...
 
2013-07-30 08:57:08 PM  

vernonFL: If you eat at McDonald's more than once or twice a year,  you are a bad person and you should feel bad about yourself.

Shame on you.


If you don't eat at McDonald's at least once per week, those marginal people will be sacked and will all starve and die. Do you really want those deaths on your hands?

Shame on you.
 
2013-07-30 08:57:47 PM  

ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


Well, I am guessing the distributors already pay their employees more than 7.25, and even if they do, they are under no obligation to follow McDonald's lead.   Few things

1)  Could likely meet somewhere in the middle, say 11-12 buchs
2)  the cost doesn't have to be passed directly to customers.  Can take it from the dividend payout, or
3)  slightly reduce the bonus packages for executives

I know #3 is an impossibility.  I am guessing those executives are bona-fide psychopaths that wouldn't dream of reducing their compensation for any reason.
 
2013-07-30 08:59:14 PM  
I don't know what a Big Mac, fries or any other item at that disgusting place costs now. Haven't eaten any from McD in at least ten years.
 
2013-07-30 08:59:38 PM  

WhyteRaven74: ferretman: Successfully self employed, could hire but taxes on small businesses is 39.6% (Federal - thanks Obama), plus state taxes...also have mortgage costs and utility costs and other employe's costs plus their healthcare.

If increases in wages lead to fewer jobs, could you explain the 50s, when wages grew across the board and there weren't job losses? Also covers the 60s.


Europe and Japan were bombed to oblivion, thus making the US. The only game in town in terms of industrialization?
 
2013-07-30 09:00:24 PM  

bojon: HoneyDog: Are the McDonald's in question corporate stores or franchises.   It might make a huge difference if you demand the franchise owner to double the wages.
You are the third person to mention that fact.


It probably won't make a huge difference to the customer. McD's strives to provide its errrr......diners with a consistent experience, and usually manages to pull it off even though that experience may be sub-prime compared to other fast food options. If the corporate store is forced to pay a labour surcharge,  the McDonalds end-user will not be likely to pay a premium to provide workers at the corporate store a salary supplement. they will gravitate to the lower cost option of the franchise
 
2013-07-30 09:01:29 PM  
I'll bet $99.99 the "analysis" didn't take into consideration the effect on market share.
 
2013-07-30 09:01:35 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

Well, I am guessing the distributors already pay their employees more than 7.25, and even if they do, they are under no obligation to follow McDonald's lead.

Nor

are their employees obligated to stay once they realize they can work at McDonalds for $15/hour and have an easier job than they have now (and free fries too!)
 
2013-07-30 09:03:40 PM  

dameron: Pray 4 Mojo: In 1992... I was working for a general contractor as a shovel operator for 6 bucks an hour

Which is almost exactly $10/hour in 2013 dollars.  So you know.


In that case I need a farking raise.
 
2013-07-30 09:04:18 PM  

Fusilier: HeartBurnKid: SomeAmerican: The question isn't "how much would I need to raise McDonald's prices in order to increase wages".

The question is "what date are McDonald's workers going to be replaced with robots".

The technology is there today, and getting cheaper all the time.  The cooking is half automated as it is.  Finish the job and use a modified call center AI for the drive through.  Then let people enter their own orders on kiosks with a token human or two to help as needed.

The higher you raise wages, the cheaper the tech looks, and the sooner that date is.

You may not realize it, but you've actually made a cogent point.  More automation means less jobs are available for the same pool of workers.  We're going to have to confront the issue of what happens when you simply don't have enough jobs to go around.

For some people that point has been reached. There are families where no one has worked for three generations. These people are professional consumers. They are issued section 8 housing, food stamps, a cell phone, and, through native wit, come up with enough loose change for cigs, booze, and dope. It is an economy driven by entitlements and the redistribution of wealth. some are able by dint of hard work to escape from this cycle, but poor schools, low expectations, and bad examples conspire to keep them in a permanent underclass. Fall afoul of the law, and you are pretty much cooked - guaranteed to remain a professional consumer. As automation continues to erode the job market that used to beckon those with a strong bank and weak mind, there will be even fewer jobs to go around. What supervisor will miss a truculent, uneducated youth who (might) show up to work a shift at Mickey Dees, when a reliable 'bot is standing by 24-7 to do the work?


You've never worked around technology, have you? Here's a hint: computers go down too. BTW, please remind me why that supervisor is employed? Unless robots need management. I'm guessing that supervisor will soon be joining that truculent uneducated youth on the unemployment line.
 
2013-07-30 09:06:20 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Raharu: Rands Paladin arrives at last!

Fight the good fight! Show them takers!

You might want to adjust that sarcasm meter there, sparky.

/worked at McDonalds when minimum wage was less than $4, and a Big Mac was about $2
//I don't want to live in a world with a $7 BigMac.

leadmetal: Micky D's is a low margin, high volume business. They cannot lose volume. So if you want to increase labor costs then there will be less beef in the patties, the bun will be made with more cheap chemicals, more stuff will be premade in factories and warmed at the location to drive down the number of people needed to be working. They'll cut margins too so long as it is less of a hit than raising the price. Anything to take that cost back out and keep that Big Mac at the price in numerical dollars people are willing to pay.

And yet, the price of a BigMac continues to increase. In 25 years, it has MORE than doubled, though minimum wage has gone from 3.85 to 7.50 (less than double).
[cwpub.com image 257x297]

Even with inflation, it is clear that despite cutting margins (?), the price is increasing, though presumably volume has not dropped.


1) every one of those price increases likely showed a blip downward in same store sales which probably recovered eventually as the market leveled out and everyone had been forced into price increases.
2) Correct for expansion into new markets. I neglected to make this point, declining margins can be compensated for by expansion into new markets to increase volume.

The last thing any decently run business does is increase the price on the shelf or menu. That's the last resort. Also nobody wants to be the first to raise prices. Customers will go elsewhere.

Again, if people were willing to pay $4.67, that would be the menu board price right now and MD's would be pocketing that 68 cents. The fact it is $3.99 means people aren't willing to pay more. MD's isn't run by idiots who don't understand this sort thing. They've done their research and know they have to keep that price under four bucks right now.
 
2013-07-30 09:08:05 PM  
They don't need to raise prices at all. Pay the people actually doing work, cut the lazy and completely pointless "executives" out of the picture. Someone whose entire job consists of worthless meetings, moronic buzzwords, and blowjobs from the secretary doesn't deserve any money at all, much less 200x what an actual worker makes. I bet they'd be surprised at how much money there is to spare without paying for private jets, houses large enough to bed an entire city's homeless population, fleets of "Look at me I'm a douchebag" cars, and bonus packages.
 
2013-07-30 09:10:26 PM  

Alexei Novikov: They don't need to raise prices at all. Pay the people actually doing work, cut the lazy and completely pointless "executives" out of the picture. Someone whose entire job consists of worthless meetings, moronic buzzwords, and blowjobs from the secretary doesn't deserve any money at all, much less 200x what an actual worker makes. I bet they'd be surprised at how much money there is to spare without paying for private jets, houses large enough to bed an entire city's homeless population, fleets of "Look at me I'm a douchebag" cars, and bonus packages.


I said "to go" numbnuts.  Listen next time!
 
2013-07-30 09:10:28 PM  

pueblonative: Fusilier: HeartBurnKid: SomeAmerican: The question isn't "how much would I need to raise McDonald's prices in order to increase wages".

The question is "what date are McDonald's workers going to be replaced with robots".

The technology is there today, and getting cheaper all the time.  The cooking is half automated as it is.  Finish the job and use a modified call center AI for the drive through.  Then let people enter their own orders on kiosks with a token human or two to help as needed.

The higher you raise wages, the cheaper the tech looks, and the sooner that date is.

You may not realize it, but you've actually made a cogent point.  More automation means less jobs are available for the same pool of workers.  We're going to have to confront the issue of what happens when you simply don't have enough jobs to go around.

For some people that point has been reached. There are families where no one has worked for three generations. These people are professional consumers. They are issued section 8 housing, food stamps, a cell phone, and, through native wit, come up with enough loose change for cigs, booze, and dope. It is an economy driven by entitlements and the redistribution of wealth. some are able by dint of hard work to escape from this cycle, but poor schools, low expectations, and bad examples conspire to keep them in a permanent underclass. Fall afoul of the law, and you are pretty much cooked - guaranteed to remain a professional consumer. As automation continues to erode the job market that used to beckon those with a strong bank and weak mind, there will be even fewer jobs to go around. What supervisor will miss a truculent, uneducated youth who (might) show up to work a shift at Mickey Dees, when a reliable 'bot is standing by 24-7 to do the work?

You've never worked around technology, have you? Here's a hint: computers go down too. BTW, please remind me why that supervisor is employed? Unless robots need management. I'm guessing that super ...


Eh, Gramps, you can't rely on those devil boxes that replace workers and steal men's souls.Yeah, i guess that is why automobiles are still assembled the way they were when Henry Ford ran Detroit. Actually, why have a "horseless carriage at all, when reliable old dobbin is just itching to haul your buckboard into town?
Here's a hint. even the most automated enterprise needs a few humans. Just not as many as it used to require.
 
2013-07-30 09:11:29 PM  
the best way to improve the plight of low wage workers (and all other workers too) is to curtail the supply of labor. I would end all almost all forms of immigration.
 
2013-07-30 09:11:42 PM  

aerojockey: I'll bet $99.99 the "analysis" didn't take into consideration the effect on market share.


Of course not, because it wasn't a study. A college student did two things:

1. Download McDonald's earnings report and calculate that 17% of their expenses are labor.
2. Calculate the cost of a Big Mac increased by 17%.

I sincerely hope this doesn't pass for academic study these days. The fact that HuffPo found this publishable is quite sad in and of itself.
 
2013-07-30 09:13:51 PM  
Does anybody else remember 39 Cent Sundays for McD cheeseburgers?

Sunday Ticket on Directv had just come out... man... so many Sundays eating crappy cheeseburgers, drinking crappy beer and watching out of market football games on my bad-ass rear projection TV.

/I'm old
 
2013-07-30 09:15:41 PM  
People who need a living wage shouldn't be working at McDonald's, except maybe as a supervisor or manager. These kinds of bottom-tier service jobs are what young teenagers and possibly the most destitute immigrants should be doing. Anyone providing for a family needs to have a real job, and we as a country should be doing whatever it takes to facilitate that, not trying to artificially enforce high wages on jobs that don't merit them.

The reality is, if you forced McDonald's to double its wages, it would simply halve its workforce (or give the same number of people half as many hours) and keep right on truckin'.
 
2013-07-30 09:16:08 PM  

GF named my left testicle thundercles: the best way to improve the plight of low wage workers (and all other workers too) is to curtail the supply of labor. I would end all almost all forms of immigration.


Fusilier: Eh, Gramps, you can't rely on those devil boxes that replace workers and steal men's souls.Yeah, i guess that is why automobiles are still assembled the way they were when Henry Ford ran Detroit. Actually, why have a "horseless carriage at all, when reliable old dobbin is just itching to haul your buckboard into town?
Here's a hint. even the most automated enterprise needs a few humans. Just not as many as it used to require.


Pleasure slaves. That's the answer.

I'll keep my highly educated, well-endowed wife, and also provide a minimum standard of living to a half dozen illiterate bimbos and two eunuchs drawn from the trailer parks of the realm.
 
2013-07-30 09:16:11 PM  

Fano: Voiceofreason01: Pray 4 Mojo:
/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

because everybody can be a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company if they just work hard enough!

/that anybody can become a huge success regardless of their circumstances is probably the biggest lie of the "American Dream"

Well yeah, the world needs ditch diggers, too.


Nope. Automation and robots will eventually make blue collar labor a thing of the past more so than it has already.
 
2013-07-30 09:16:50 PM  

howdoibegin: DerpHerder: ReapTheChaos: Marcus Aurelius: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

Thank God you are nowhere near reality.

Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.

While companies like Walmart and McDonald's probably could pay $15 and hour by only raising prices on each item they sell a few cents, most smaller businesses would go bankrupt if they had to pay that much. Not only that, but other people start demanding pay raises as well. People with skills and experience who were making $15-20 an hour before minimum wage went up are going to demand an appropriate raise as well, and by all rights they deserve it.

After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.

Exactly. Price floors and ceilings are just as undesirable as subsidies /welfare. To head anyone off undesirable things are sometimes needed. Most of the people in here fail to grasp a basic concept of elasticity. Things do not operate in a bubble. Even within the bub ...

I missed the part where you proved that you immediately lose X sales if a product costs X amount more. In your own stupid words, "things do not operate in a bubble." You're just modeling the results based on how you're framing your bubble. I don't have to prove it either way, but your economic model is as brokenly simplistic as what you're trying to refute.


Price is elastic. Presenting the laws underwhich these types of economic changes operate is not a "result". This research fails the most basic elements of economics. Im sorry my basic level of anlysis doesn't meet your standards of proof for the bubble you put what I said in. I'm right you are wrong feel free to do the math yourself. I proved exactly what I set out to "your economic model is as brokenly simplistic as what you're trying to refute." This overly simplistic research doesn't even meet the most overly simplistic analysis of someone with only basic economic knowledge. Im glad I didn't have to read any of your stupid opinions on this subject. Its probably best you don't contribute to this discussion.
 
2013-07-30 09:17:38 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Weaver95: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: But what if the increased cost resulted in a decrease in demand and thus lower sales? They may be able to pay employees more, but they'd have to cut costs somewhere else.

well, given that your average CEO makes 400% more than they're worth....you could start there.

Again, when you start your business, pay the CEO no more than he's worth. With paying only fair wages to everyone, you should be able to offer a quality product at a fair price, crushing the inefficient corporations who waste all their money on executive pay.

You don't own McDonald's. It's none of your farking business what they decide to offer in wages or salary to ANY of their workers.


No, it damn well is our business when companies like McDs (or, far better ex, Walmart) pay such low wages that everyone else's taxes are essentially making up at least some of the difference.

We subsidize these low wages in welfare and food stamps because they arent making a living wage and the corps and their board's rake in record profits.
 
2013-07-30 09:19:34 PM  

8Fingers: I don't know what a Big Mac, fries or any other item at that disgusting place costs now. Haven't eaten any from McD in at least ten years.


Well aren't you special and unique.
 
2013-07-30 09:20:03 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Does anybody else remember 39 Cent Sundays for McD cheeseburgers?

Sunday Ticket on Directv had just come out... man... so many Sundays eating crappy cheeseburgers, drinking crappy beer and watching out of market football games on my bad-ass rear projection TV.

/I'm old

Sheesh! I remember fries cost $.08.

 
2013-07-30 09:20:11 PM  

Shorelinefarker: So crap food is more expensive, which means people eat less of it. I don't see a problem here.


The difference between quality and crap probably remains the same. I would expect a decent burger and fries to then cost somewhere around $AUS 18-20. Provided of course that more experienced/skilled workers don't get screwed and end up being paid the same while the bottom is increased.

But what is a minimum wage anyway?
The first minimum wages were created to prevent lower skilled and less experienced workers from competing on price. A minimum wage serves to cut off the lower rungs of the job ladder for them. If they cannot find education, training, something to boost their skills they will be jobless.

The minimum wage also deals with a lack of economic opportunity. This is a natural consequence of corporatist and other economic systems that restrict and regulate markets for the advantage of existing and inside players. People just don't have as many opportunities to go out on their own, find better employment with competitors, or go into new businesses under these conditions.

In the end it's just an arbitrary figure. Why not pay MD's employees $200/hr?  Any arbitrary figure is as good as any other. Some people will benefit others will be hurt.
 
2013-07-30 09:20:20 PM  

dameron: Pray 4 Mojo: In 1992... I was working for a general contractor as a shovel operator for 6 bucks an hour

Which is almost exactly $10/hour in 2013 dollars.  So you know.


But he is bootstrappy!
 
2013-07-30 09:20:23 PM  

leadmetal: The last thing any decently run business does is increase the price on the shelf or menu. That's the last resort. Also nobody wants to be the first to raise prices. Customers will go elsewhere.


And yet, Almost EVERY SINGLE YEAR, the price of a Big Mac has gone up.
 
2013-07-30 09:20:37 PM  

seek3r: No, it damn well is our business when companies like McDs (or, far better ex, Walmart) pay such low wages that everyone else's taxes are essentially making up at least some of the difference.

We subsidize these low wages in welfare and food stamps because they arent making a living wage and the corps and their board's rake in record profits.


I'll point out again, though, that there are several unintended results that are possible, here:

1) The price of labor becomes high enough in these low-value, low-skill positions that they can be automated.
2) The price becomes high enough to attract more capable job candidates who supplant the current employees (and potentially worsen the shortage of skilled workers in some fields).
3) The labor is simply no longer worth doing and the business model changes or becomes unviable.

There's a plausible argument to be made that the flip side of us subsidizing McDonald's is that they're extending some minimal opportunity to people who would otherwise have no place in the economy whatsoever and would require total public support.
 
2013-07-30 09:22:02 PM  

doglover: 8Fingers: I don't know what a Big Mac, fries or any other item at that disgusting place costs now. Haven't eaten any from McD in at least ten years.

Well aren't you special and unique.


Exactly.  A Panera Bread customer that shops at Whole Foods.  A real caring person.
 
2013-07-30 09:22:37 PM  
seek3r:

We subsidize these low wages in welfare and food stamps because they arent making a living wage and the corps and their board's rake in record profits.

so where exactly do you think the record profits go?  (remember, profit is money left over after paying everyone)
 
2013-07-30 09:23:46 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Far less global competition and fewer products manufactured overseas with strong sales in the US.


And what drove those sales?
 
2013-07-30 09:24:06 PM  
McDonald's isn't a "living wage" job and increases in the minimum wage hurt poor people.
 
2013-07-30 09:24:35 PM  

ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


That's why items are the same price at Costco who pays its employees $45k on average versus SAMs Club who pays minimum wage.
 
2013-07-30 09:25:06 PM  
What if there was no hourly minimum wage at all?

Would you go for instead.... you get a percentage of the daily, or monthly, or whatever period you agree to... a percentage of the receipts (after certain expenses), or for certain amount of actual work done?

/When I was just out of high school, I worked at a job that switched from an hourly rate to a piece rate that paid per viable piece I constructed..... My pay almost tripled.
 
2013-07-30 09:25:35 PM  

ReapTheChaos: most smaller businesses would go bankrupt if they had to pay that much.


I agree! We shouldn't be increasing CEO pay as it is putting businesses out of business! We should be cutting their pay and removing their benefits!
 
2013-07-30 09:25:51 PM  
Well, obviously this means we should raise the price so we can double their salaries.  No harm in that, right?
 
2013-07-30 09:25:53 PM  

Alexei Novikov: They don't need to raise prices at all. Pay the people actually doing work, cut the lazy and completely pointless "executives" out of the picture. Someone whose entire job consists of worthless meetings, moronic buzzwords, and blowjobs from the secretary doesn't deserve any money at all, much less 200x what an actual worker makes. I bet they'd be surprised at how much money there is to spare without paying for private jets, houses large enough to bed an entire city's homeless population, fleets of "Look at me I'm a douchebag" cars, and bonus packages.


That wouldn't do a damn thing. As I pointed out in another thread on this subject, if you took the 8 million annual salary of McDonald's CEO and divided it among all its 440,000 employee's they would receive about $18 each, or about a .01 cent per hour pay raise. Even if you fired everyone who worked above the restaurant level you would only raise that to about .12 cents per hour.
 
2013-07-30 09:27:29 PM  

jst3p: dameron: Pray 4 Mojo: In 1992... I was working for a general contractor as a shovel operator for 6 bucks an hour

Which is almost exactly $10/hour in 2013 dollars.  So you know.

But he is bootstrappy!


It's an absolute shame that suggesting people better themselves and work hard for the things they want is ridiculed by so many.

Also says a lot.
 
2013-07-30 09:27:48 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: leadmetal: The last thing any decently run business does is increase the price on the shelf or menu. That's the last resort. Also nobody wants to be the first to raise prices. Customers will go elsewhere.

And yet, Almost EVERY SINGLE YEAR, the price of a Big Mac has gone up.


I always love the libs who say they support capitalism (like say, our president) yet endorse anti-business policies at every turn.  The primary responsibility of any publicly traded company is to enhance shareholder value.  If you don't support that idea you don't support capitalism.  So EVERY SINGLE YEAR the price of a Big Mac has gone up.  So what?  If I have to pay more for a Big Mac to offset the damage done to the ozone layer by the flatulence of the cows McDonalds raises to make my Big Mac then god dammit I'm willing to do it.
 
2013-07-30 09:27:52 PM  
 

GoSlash27: ncreases in the minimum wage hurt poor people.


Now if only there were any proof that's the case instead of proof to the contrary
 
2013-07-30 09:28:52 PM  

doglover: 8Fingers: I don't know what a Big Mac, fries or any other item at that disgusting place costs now. Haven't eaten any from McD in at least ten years.

Well aren't you special and unique.


Yes, yes I am!
 
2013-07-30 09:30:04 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: jst3p: dameron: Pray 4 Mojo: In 1992... I was working for a general contractor as a shovel operator for 6 bucks an hour

Which is almost exactly $10/hour in 2013 dollars.  So you know.

But he is bootstrappy!

It's an absolute shame that suggesting people better themselves and work hard for the things they want is ridiculed by so many.

Also says a lot.


It says a lot that you believe it is that simple.

/simple minds like simple solutions
//In case you missed it I am calling you simple, or kinda dumb
 
2013-07-30 09:31:03 PM  

stuhayes2010: That's why items are the same price at Costco who pays its employees $45k on average versus SAMs Club who pays minimum wage.


There are many factors. Costco could be hiring workers who are worth far more but fewer of them.  Furthermore Wally's pays more than minimum wage. That's one reason why there is line to apply every time they open new stores.  Now the union retail job I had as my first job, after union dues I made less than minimum wage at the time.

MrBentor: Would you go for instead.... you get a percentage of the daily, or monthly, or whatever period you agree to... a percentage of the receipts (after certain expenses), or for certain amount of actual work done?


If I could get a percentage say 5% of what I've done, I wouldn't be working any more.
 
2013-07-30 09:31:21 PM  
I haven't seen this broken down this way yet, so let me give it a shot.  I did some quick math the other day on the real numbers, so am going by memory here.

First, something like 85% of McDonald's are franchises, so however many millions the CEO makes, and basically any of the numbers used by this idiot student just aren't relevant.

The average McDonald's generates something like $2.5 million in revenue a year.  Labor runs between 22% and 25%. The average meal is about $5. The average per store profit, ie what goes to the franchise owner is about $150k.   So, clearly, doubling labor cost isn't possible.

For those who say "well, I'd pay a buck more...", as pointed out, it just doesn't work that way.  If McDonald's could be getting a buck more per customer right now, they would. If you want to pay more to justify decent working wages, then make sure you give your patronage to those places that do so.  If the market agrees with you, then problem solved.

But the fact remains that doubling wages, or even increasing by 50% would put most McDonald's stores out of business.  Maybe one day UNICEF will get into the burger as well as the impound business, but until then...

Quit talking about the corporate entity.  Its not where the conversation needs to be.
 
2013-07-30 09:31:24 PM  

stuhayes2010: That's why items are the same price at Costco who pays its employees $45k on average versus SAMs Club who pays minimum wage.


Why doesn't everyone at Sams Club go work at Costco then?
 
2013-07-30 09:31:35 PM  

CaliNJGuy: The primary responsibility of any publicly traded company is to enhance shareholder value. If you don't support that idea you don't support capitalism.


No it isn't. And you don't get capitalism either I see

.

Frank N Stein: Europe and Japan were bombed to oblivion, thus making the US. The only game in town in terms of industrialization?


Europe recovered by the time the 50s rolled around. Germany was back to exporting like crazy in just a few years. Japan actually had it easier since they were not so much starting over as really starting. Before the war they really weren't a factor as far exports. They decided they would be and very quickly became one.
 
2013-07-30 09:32:24 PM  
I'll say it:

Fark You.

I got mine.

Why should I care beyond that?

No, seriously.

Why. Should. I. Care? Tell me.

Why do YOU care, if you really do? Do you care? Really? What do you do about  it besides tell us what other people should do? How much do you really care?
 
2013-07-30 09:32:43 PM  

accelerus: without analyzing shiat....

ask yourself this.

Do you think someone has a GED from high school, wears his pants at the bottom of his ass, and really really sucks at math... do you think they are worth $15/hour?

The reason you are paid minimum wage is because you are more than likely a person who always achieved the minimum in life. Grades/savings/common sense. I'd be willing to bet a sizeable sum that even if you put all that extra money into the hands of "those people" they wouldn't know to handle is properly.  They wouldn't pay off their credit cards, or student loans, it would be spent on dumb crap that dumb people like to buy.  Rims, booze, cigarettes, partying, eating out, a new car you (still) really can't afford.


Wow, what an asshole you are. Writing off millions of Americans. Let them eat cake eh?
 
2013-07-30 09:33:13 PM  

WhyteRaven74: tenpoundsofcheese: Far less global competition and fewer products manufactured overseas with strong sales in the US.

And what drove those sales?


Very little drove those sales.  They were inferior products with poor marketing and distribution in the US.
That is why so few overseas products had strong sales in the US
 
2013-07-30 09:33:41 PM  

Delectatio Morosa: I'll say it:

Fark You.

I got mine.

Why should I care beyond that?

No, seriously.

Why. Should. I. Care? Tell me.

Why do YOU care, if you really do? Do you care? Really? What do you do about  it besides tell us what other people should do? How much do you really care?


Because a race to the bottom hurts all of us but the very elite, and you aren't in that group. You should care because over the long haul it will affect you.
 
2013-07-30 09:34:19 PM  

Delectatio Morosa: Why. Should. I. Care? Tell me.


Because if you don't you're just hurting yourself. Also you're a failure as a person if you don't.
 
2013-07-30 09:34:32 PM  

ScaryBottles: basemetal: new study provided to The Huffington Post by a University of Kansas student.

So says a student.

I would just like you to stop and think about how dumb that statement is. You may be unaware of this but some of the greatest discoveries in the history of science and medicine were made by grad students. But hey why should facts get in the way of your apathetic, greedy, self centered world view.

Sorry you dumb as fark anti-intellutaulists really piss me off.


You didn't read the article, did you?

/no
//dumbass
 
2013-07-30 09:35:21 PM  

Charles_Nelson_Reilly: TuteTibiImperes: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

More people earning more money will allow them to spend more in their local economies supporting other businesses that will then earn more profits and be able to expand hiring more employees and creating more jobs.

That argument is as full of magic and pixie dust as trickle-down economics.


On the contrary, it's exactly the opposite, it's grass roots 'trickle-up' economics, and it would be just as effective as trickle-down was ineffective.
 
2013-07-30 09:35:31 PM  

dccc: I haven't seen this broken down this way yet, so let me give it a shot.  I did some quick math the other day on the real numbers, so am going by memory here.

First, something like 85% of McDonald's are franchises, so however many millions the CEO makes, and basically any of the numbers used by this idiot student just aren't relevant.

The average McDonald's generates something like $2.5 million in revenue a year.  Labor runs between 22% and 25%. The average meal is about $5. The average per store profit, ie what goes to the franchise owner is about $150k.   So, clearly, doubling labor cost isn't possible.

For those who say "well, I'd pay a buck more...", as pointed out, it just doesn't work that way.  If McDonald's could be getting a buck more per customer right now, they would. If you want to pay more to justify decent working wages, then make sure you give your patronage to those places that do so.  If the market agrees with you, then problem solved.

But the fact remains that doubling wages, or even increasing by 50% would put most McDonald's stores out of business.  Maybe one day UNICEF will get into the burger as well as the impound business, but until then...

Quit talking about the corporate entity.  Its not where the conversation needs to be.


What's your opinion of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUvm9UgJBtg
 
2013-07-30 09:35:46 PM  
If you pay a McDonalds employee 22$ an hour CDN, you devalue every job in the mid-tier.

Anyone in the 50K a year range or less becomes about as valuable as a guy flipping burgers.
 
2013-07-30 09:35:48 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Very little drove those sales


so demand increased out of the ether? It had nothing to do with people being paid more and more year after year?
 
2013-07-30 09:36:12 PM  

Fusilier: pueblonative: Fusilier: For some people that point has been reached. There are families where no one has worked for three generations. These people are professional consumers. They are issued section 8 housing, food stamps, a cell phone, and, through native wit, come up with enough loose change for cigs, booze, and dope. It is an economy driven by entitlements and the redistribution of wealth. some are able by dint of hard work to escape from this cycle, but poor schools, low expectations, and bad examples conspire to keep them in a permanent underclass. Fall afoul of the law, and you are pretty much cooked - guaranteed to remain a professional consumer. As automation continues to erode the job market that used to beckon those with a strong bank and weak mind, there will be even fewer jobs to go around. What supervisor will miss a truculent, uneducated youth who (might) show up to work a shift at Mickey Dees, when a reliable 'bot is standing by 24-7 to do the work?

You've never worked around technology, have you? Here's a hint: computers go down too. BTW, please remind me why that supervisor is employed? Unless robots need management. I'm guessing that ...

Eh, Gramps, you can't rely on those devil boxes that replace workers and steal men's souls.Yeah, i guess that is why automobiles are still assembled the way they were when Henry Ford ran Detroit. Actually, why have a "horseless carriage at all, when reliable old dobbin is just itching to haul your buckboard into town?
Here's a hint. even the most automated enterprise needs a few humans. Just not as many as it used to require.


Case in point, manufacturing.  Despite all the talk of manufacturing having fled the country, there was no such event.  Manufacturing - as measured in current dollars - has steadily gone up year after year for decades, as seen below in a chart from the United Nations.

The real difference is the number of people needed to generate that output.  Case in point, China on that graph.  To reach that output, China has over 100 million people working in factories (from the same source, the UN).  The US only needs less than 12 million people to produce similar output.  Why?  Lots and lots of automation.

That's what people mean when they mean the death of manufacturing.  Manufacturing is doing great, we just produce more with far less people than before.  It's not the death of manufacturing, its the death of manufacturing jobs.

www.aei-ideas.org
 
2013-07-30 09:36:22 PM  

Cabbages: What's wrong with getting an education and then a higher paying, more fulfilling career?


Good if you can afford to I guess. Not everyone can. Not everyone had the chance to go to college after high school.
 
2013-07-30 09:37:24 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: you're another one who failed economics, aren't you?


MY business is doing just fine... so I guess I passed.


Ouch...

Funny how the Fark-libs are always the ones to criticize and denigrate others but when it comes to themselves taking some sort of action that they are preaching others to do .. There is always an excuse why they can't or couldn't..... shocked.
 
2013-07-30 09:37:45 PM  

bbfreak: Cabbages: What's wrong with getting an education and then a higher paying, more fulfilling career?

Good if you can afford to I guess. Not everyone can. Not everyone had the chance to go to college after high school.


Just borrow money from your parents like Mitt said, duh!
 
2013-07-30 09:37:53 PM  

WhyteRaven74: CaliNJGuy: The primary responsibility of any publicly traded company is to enhance shareholder value. If you don't support that idea you don't support capitalism.

No it isn't. And you don't get capitalism either I see

.Frank N Stein: Europe and Japan were bombed to oblivion, thus making the US. The only game in town in terms of industrialization?

Europe recovered by the time the 50s rolled around. Germany was back to exporting like crazy in just a few years. Japan actually had it easier since they were not so much starting over as really starting. Before the war they really weren't a factor as far exports. They decided they would be and very quickly became one.


Yes it is.  And if it isn't you should be asking yourself why at Tesco's latest AGM shareholders agitated loud and long for Tesco to shed itself of its US division Fresh & Easy sooner rather than later (F&E has cost Tesco billions thus far and never turned a profit).  I can't believe they aren't overjoyed to be losing that kind of money.
 
2013-07-30 09:39:54 PM  

Delectatio Morosa: I'll say it:

Fark You.

I got mine.

Why should I care beyond that?

No, seriously.

Why. Should. I. Care? Tell me.

Why do YOU care, if you really do? Do you care? Really? What do you do about  it besides tell us what other people should do? How much do you really care?


I care because an increase in the minimum wage will help push wages up for other jobs.  If unskilled labor is going for $15/hour companies will have to pay more for skilled labor.

As for what I'm going to do about it, I'll keep voting in the 'D' column because they're the best chance at sticking it to big business and helping the average Joe out.
 
2013-07-30 09:40:13 PM  

CaliNJGuy: So EVERY SINGLE YEAR the price of a Big Mac has gone up. So what?


So clearly there is a contradiction to leadmetal's assertion that large, high volume companies will do anything before they will raise the price of their product because of a perceived idea that consumers have an "ideal price" they are willing to pay and exceeding that will cause them to stop purchasing. Demonstrably, so long as the prices increases are nominal at each interval, they will be absorbed with little notice by the consumer.

If you roll up to Mickey D's to order that 24 oz. sugar water that was .87 cents, and the crackle voice tells you that it is now .94 cents, will you drive off in a huff? No. You will pay it because it's only less than a thin dime's difference, and next time you go that is the "normal" price.

I doubt McDonald's really, truly cares that much about the wage increases (although DOUBLING it all at once might be a bit much). I worked there for a year and a half and had three raises from 3.85 to 4.75. Labor costs can be absorbed as they inch those prices up. 20 years ago they started kids out at 3.85, now it's 7.50. They are doing just fine.

And we pay more than double what we used to, and the prices increased even when there was no increase in the minimum wage.
 
2013-07-30 09:41:23 PM  

Bartman66: Funny how the Fark-libs


You think weaver is a fark-lib.....excuse me I'll be spending the next five minutes howling in laughter

CaliNJGuy: Yes it is


so what exactly determines shareholder value?
 
2013-07-30 09:41:26 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: stuhayes2010: That's why items are the same price at Costco who pays its employees $45k on average versus SAMs Club who pays minimum wage.

Why doesn't everyone at Sams Club go work at Costco then?


More to the point, why doesn't everyone shop at Costco?
 
2013-07-30 09:42:49 PM  

dccc: I haven't seen this broken down this way yet, so let me give it a shot.  I did some quick math the other day on the real numbers, so am going by memory here.

First, something like 85% of McDonald's are franchises, so however many millions the CEO makes, and basically any of the numbers used by this idiot student just aren't relevant.

The average McDonald's generates something like $2.5 million in revenue a year.  Labor runs between 22% and 25%. The average meal is about $5. The average per store profit, ie what goes to the franchise owner is about $150k.   So, clearly, doubling labor cost isn't possible.

For those who say "well, I'd pay a buck more...", as pointed out, it just doesn't work that way.  If McDonald's could be getting a buck more per customer right now, they would. If you want to pay more to justify decent working wages, then make sure you give your patronage to those places that do so.  If the market agrees with you, then problem solved.

But the fact remains that doubling wages, or even increasing by 50% would put most McDonald's stores out of business.  Maybe one day UNICEF will get into the burger as well as the impound business, but until then...

Quit talking about the corporate entity.  Its not where the conversation needs to be.
Congratulations, you are the fourth person to mention that the owners of the stores (Franchisees)

are the ones who set wages based on demand.
 
2013-07-30 09:43:07 PM  

jst3p: It says a lot that you believe it is that simple.

/simple minds like simple solutions
//In case you missed it I am calling you simple, or kinda dumb


I know you are but what am I?

/seems to be about the appropriate level of discourse.
//I never said it was that simple.
 
2013-07-30 09:43:47 PM  

Bartman66: Neighborhood Watch: Weaver95: you're another one who failed economics, aren't you?


MY business is doing just fine... so I guess I passed.

Ouch...

Funny how the Fark-libs are always the ones to criticize and denigrate others but when it comes to themselves taking some sort of action that they are preaching others to do .. There is always an excuse why they can't or couldn't..... shocked.


And anyone can say whatever they like online with little way to fact check.  I could say I have a 12" wang, a Bentley, and a standing booty call arrangement with Olivia Munn, but that doesn't make any of that true.

It's not difficult to run a successful business if you've got money to start with and you don't mind treating your employees like a commodity, paying the lowest wages you can get away with while extracting the most output.
 
2013-07-30 09:45:08 PM  

Weaver95: its been my experience that if you underpay someone you get what you pay for.  if there isn't any incentive for an employee to actually participate, then yeah - you'll probably get crappy employees.  welcome to human nature 101.  offer someone a real wage increase for doing a good job and hey, i'll bet you get good employees.  not just an extra .60 cents either, I mean $25 bucks an hour if they show up and work for it.


That's because good employees have other options.  If someone is worth $25 an hour, they'll find a job that pays that.  Pay a crap wage and you settle for people who aren't worth more.  But giving someone a doctor's salary doesn't make them a doctor.
 
2013-07-30 09:46:06 PM  

bojon: dccc: I haven't seen this broken down this way yet, so let me give it a shot.  I did some quick math the other day on the real numbers, so am going by memory here.

First, something like 85% of McDonald's are franchises, so however many millions the CEO makes, and basically any of the numbers used by this idiot student just aren't relevant.

The average McDonald's generates something like $2.5 million in revenue a year.  Labor runs between 22% and 25%. The average meal is about $5. The average per store profit, ie what goes to the franchise owner is about $150k.   So, clearly, doubling labor cost isn't possible.

For those who say "well, I'd pay a buck more...", as pointed out, it just doesn't work that way.  If McDonald's could be getting a buck more per customer right now, they would. If you want to pay more to justify decent working wages, then make sure you give your patronage to those places that do so.  If the market agrees with you, then problem solved.

But the fact remains that doubling wages, or even increasing by 50% would put most McDonald's stores out of business.  Maybe one day UNICEF will get into the burger as well as the impound business, but until then...

Quit talking about the corporate entity.  Its not where the conversation needs to be.
Congratulations, you are the fourth person to mention that the owners of the stores (Franchisees)
are the ones who set wages based on demand.


If it puts some of the stores out of business, oh well.  Competitors will step in that are able to make the numbers work and can pay living wages while still earning a profit.  Maybe it won't be a $150K profit per store, and maybe they won't be able to pay the franchise fees that McDonalds charges, but there's still money to be made and someone will be willing to do it for the amount of profit that can still be made while paying a living wage.
 
2013-07-30 09:46:25 PM  
I'm confused, are my only options either complain that a minimum wage exists at all or the minimum wage must be doubled?
 
2013-07-30 09:46:28 PM  
The dollar menu double cheeseburger is probably worth $2, but the Big Mac just isn't as great a sandwich, it certainly doesn't look as big as a Whopper, so it isn't worth $4.
 
2013-07-30 09:48:17 PM  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=a01QQZyl-_I" >https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=a01QQZyl-_ I
 
2013-07-30 09:49:19 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: jst3p: It says a lot that you believe it is that simple.

/simple minds like simple solutions
//In case you missed it I am calling you simple, or kinda dumb

I know you are but what am I?

/seems to be about the appropriate level of discourse.
//I never said it was that simple.


Nice how you cut what you couldn't argue against. I don't hold it against you because I have shown that you are simple, or kind of dumb. But you did in fact do exactly what you claimed you didn't do. I don't really blame you, you know because of the "simple". The rest of us get it. It's OK.


/keep engaging in coitus with that fowl
 
2013-07-30 09:49:31 PM  
Solution:  Everyone works for tips and tips only.  The gov't pays McDonalds to hand out it's food instead of welfare
 
2013-07-30 09:49:48 PM  
If you chose not to go to school or learn a skilled trade, then why is it McDonalds problem if you chose to work for them at an agreed upon hourly wage that is common for an unskilled worker?
 
2013-07-30 09:49:52 PM  

CaliNJGuy: Yes it is. And if it isn't you should be asking yourself why at Tesco's latest AGM shareholders agitated loud and long for Tesco to shed itself of its US division Fresh & Easy sooner rather than later (F&E has cost Tesco billions thus far and never turned a profit). I can't believe they aren't overjoyed to be losing that kind of money.


He he he... awesome. I've had extensive experience interacting with Fresh and Easy on a business to business level.

They are a management disaster. Total, complete and unmitigated disaster... and still hemorrhaging money.

I would expect that their story is going to be taught in business schools some day as a cautionary example.
 
2013-07-30 09:50:12 PM  

Delectatio Morosa: I'll say it:

Fark You.

I got mine.

Why should I care beyond that?

No, seriously.

Why. Should. I. Care? Tell me.

Why do YOU care, if you really do? Do you care? Really? What do you do about  it besides tell us what other people should do? How much do you really care?


Why? Well, two things. 1: A wealth gap between the rich and the poor is bad for the economy. The economy grows faster, which is good for everyone. Duh. 2: Automation has already changed our world greatly, its about to change it even more and the rise of the robots is going to seriously change things more than ever. Eventually there will be very few blue collar jobs at all I can imagine, because robots/etc will replace a lot of them. Or at least make it so that there are fewer jobs.

In theory this is a good thing, because it frees humanity to be more innovative and work on the things that are worth while as a whole. It seems doubtful that we're ever going to have enough jobs for everyone again. That boat has sailed, and the future is something entirely different. How we will deal with that is a society I don't know, but it starts with treating minimum wage workers as human beings and not disrespecting them or thinking them scum like some of the people in this thread have communicated.

Lastly, I may be a godless heathen but I give a shiat about our species and my country. I see homeless people, people on welfare as examples of the governments failure to reach such people, people who fell between the cracks. I honestly believe we're better when we work together to enable each other to reach our fullest potential, but that isn't something we really do very well.
 
2013-07-30 09:51:35 PM  

trappedspirit: Solution:  Everyone works for tips and tips only.  The gov't pays McDonalds to hand out it's food instead of welfare


Would they charge more for dipping sauce? I love BBQ with my fries but those bastards want to charge me $.50 if I don't buy nuggets.
 
2013-07-30 09:53:55 PM  

bbfreak: accelerus: without analyzing shiat....

ask yourself this.

Do you think someone has a GED from high school, wears his pants at the bottom of his ass, and really really sucks at math... do you think they are worth $15/hour?

The reason you are paid minimum wage is because you are more than likely a person who always achieved the minimum in life. Grades/savings/common sense. I'd be willing to bet a sizeable sum that even if you put all that extra money into the hands of "those people" they wouldn't know to handle is properly.  They wouldn't pay off their credit cards, or student loans, it would be spent on dumb crap that dumb people like to buy.  Rims, booze, cigarettes, partying, eating out, a new car you (still) really can't afford.


Wow, what an asshole you are. Writing off millions of Americans. Let them eat cake eh?


So I return to my previous question. How much more are you willing to pay for all sorts of consumer goods to pay more to the people who bothered to go through all the difficult schooling and long hours on the job so you could buy them? People ask why so few americans go into engineering and science these days. But they rarely have the right answer. The work/reward ratio sucks.

Keep that work/reward idea in mind when making interventions like the minimum wage. If employers demand more work for the greater reward then people are going to be knocked off the job ladder. If the lower rung jobs just pay more and everyone else remains the same then more people will find these lower rung jobs good enough. If everyone is raised all that has been accomplished to shift the scale over and now all the people on the bottom rungs are just as poor as they were before while the numbers are larger.
 
2013-07-30 09:54:17 PM  

MatrixOutsider: If you chose not to go to school or learn a skilled trade, then why is it McDonalds problem if you chose to work for them at an agreed upon hourly wage that is common for an unskilled worker?


Well, it should be something you care about seeing as a taxpayer you pay for McDonalds/Wal-Mart employees to live off welfare to make up the difference.
 
2013-07-30 09:57:26 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: CaliNJGuy: Yes it is. And if it isn't you should be asking yourself why at Tesco's latest AGM shareholders agitated loud and long for Tesco to shed itself of its US division Fresh & Easy sooner rather than later (F&E has cost Tesco billions thus far and never turned a profit). I can't believe they aren't overjoyed to be losing that kind of money.

He he he... awesome. I've had extensive experience interacting with Fresh and Easy on a business to business level.

They are a management disaster. Total, complete and unmitigated disaster... and still hemorrhaging money.

I would expect that their story is going to be taught in business schools some day as a cautionary example.


I work for a company that has been a technology vendor to F&E since their inception and couldn't agree w/you more.  My first contact w/them was at the mock store they built in their El Segundo facility and the walls couldn't contain the hubris coming out of that place.  They are getting what they deserve.
 
2013-07-30 09:57:47 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: bojon: dccc: I haven't seen this broken down this way yet, so let me give it a shot.  I did some quick math the other day on the real numbers, so am going by memory here.

First, something like 85% of McDonald's are franchises, so however many millions the CEO makes, and basically any of the numbers used by this idiot student just aren't relevant.

The average McDonald's generates something like $2.5 million in revenue a year.  Labor runs between 22% and 25%. The average meal is about $5. The average per store profit, ie what goes to the franchise owner is about $150k.   So, clearly, doubling labor cost isn't possible.

For those who say "well, I'd pay a buck more...", as pointed out, it just doesn't work that way.  If McDonald's could be getting a buck more per customer right now, they would. If you want to pay more to justify decent working wages, then make sure you give your patronage to those places that do so.  If the market agrees with you, then problem solved.

But the fact remains that doubling wages, or even increasing by 50% would put most McDonald's stores out of business.  Maybe one day UNICEF will get into the burger as well as the impound business, but until then...

Quit talking about the corporate entity.  Its not where the conversation needs to be.
Congratulations, you are the fourth person to mention that the owners of the stores (Franchisees)
are the ones who set wages based on demand.

If it puts some of the stores out of business, oh well.  Competitors will step in that are able to make the numbers work and can pay living wages while still earning a profit.  Maybe it won't be a $150K profit per store, and maybe they won't be able to pay the franchise fees that McDonalds charges, but there's still money to be made and someone will be willing to do it for the amount of profit that can still be made while paying a living wage.
Most franchisees have invested their life savings and are mortgaged to the hilt. It is called "Taking a risk".

 
2013-07-30 10:00:26 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: It's not difficult to run a successful business if you've got money to start with and you don't mind treating your employees like a commodity, paying the lowest wages you can get away with while extracting the most output.


It's also not difficult to run a successful business if you had less than $500 in startup capital, you treat your employees with respect and pay them a modest wage with full health care, life insurance, and a 401K while getting quality work and high productivity in return.

Probably a lot easier, actually.
 
2013-07-30 10:01:40 PM  

jst3p: Nice how you cut what you couldn't argue against.


Ha ha ha... Jesus Farking Christ. Get over yourself Perry Mason. I section out the previous blah blah blah blah in most of my responses to avoid the wall of text.

Like I'm doing it to avoid some salient, argument busting comment you made... don't flatter yourself.

I'm gonna go pour used oil down a storm drain and club some baby seals now. I might even go across the street to the Welfare office and yell at all the smelly poor people. Wanna join me? You can hug them and give them your money.
 
2013-07-30 10:01:41 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: And it would be overpriced by $2.68


Holy crap, I thought you were constitutionally unable to say anything that made sense.

Good for you, sweetie!
 
2013-07-30 10:02:56 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: CaliNJGuy: So EVERY SINGLE YEAR the price of a Big Mac has gone up. So what?

So clearly there is a contradiction to leadmetal's assertion that large, high volume companies will do anything before they will raise the price of their product because of a perceived idea that consumers have an "ideal price" they are willing to pay and exceeding that will cause them to stop purchasing. Demonstrably, so long as the prices increases are nominal at each interval, they will be absorbed with little notice by the consumer.

If you roll up to Mickey D's to order that 24 oz. sugar water that was .87 cents, and the crackle voice tells you that it is now .94 cents, will you drive off in a huff? No. You will pay it because it's only less than a thin dime's difference, and next time you go that is the "normal" price.

I doubt McDonald's really, truly cares that much about the wage increases (although DOUBLING it all at once might be a bit much). I worked there for a year and a half and had three raises from 3.85 to 4.75. Labor costs can be absorbed as they inch those prices up. 20 years ago they started kids out at 3.85, now it's 7.50. They are doing just fine.

And we pay more than double what we used to, and the prices increased even when there was no increase in the minimum wage.


If people are willing to pay more why isn't the price higher now?
Are these corporations run by dumb farks who are leaving money on the table?
Those arguing with me on this point need to explain why profits are being left on the table. If the price can be raised and people just shrug, then the price has been too low to achieve maximum profits.

I've been developing product for many years now. The last thing to change is retail price. Never seen retail price just go up because costs went up. Only when it was thought people would pay the increase or there was no other choice but to cancel the product. I've seen products canceled because they simply could not be made for what people were willing to pay.

Also, labor isn't the only cost in a product. In fact it's often a small percentage of it. Inflation driving up material and energy costs is usually the big problem, not labor. But labor increases happen to and are dealt with the same way.
 
2013-07-30 10:03:59 PM  
Weaver95:

The employees should be welcome to try to form a union, and their employer should be free to fire them for beginning to organize. What's the problem again?

They should be free to start a union, but companies should be prevented by law from firing employ for attempts to unionize.


Unions are half of what's wrong with this country. We had a whole generation where tons of kids only aspired to get through high school so they could get a overpaid union job with their Dad, doing one simple task. The whole family's desire for higher education was curtailed by the promise of easy money. Daddy didn't finish 8th grade and he makes $90,000 a year at the Chrysler plant. So Johnny squeaks through high school to follow in his footsteps. When the rug was pulled out from under them we have generations of trenched in mediocrity. No one family member for three generations ever went to wanted to go to college. We're left with uneducated, unskilled worKers looking for $45 and hour jobs in cesspools like Detroit. Despite the fact that the only skill the have is bolting a bumper on a LeBaron.


Meanwhile in India and China parents are pushing their kids to learn because they knew its the of true way out of the rut they are stuck in making 15 cents and hour. Kids see this and are leaning. Leaving the US behind in learning and taking all our jerbs.
 
2013-07-30 10:04:48 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: TuteTibiImperes: It's not difficult to run a successful business if you've got money to start with and you don't mind treating your employees like a commodity, paying the lowest wages you can get away with while extracting the most output.

It's also not difficult to run a successful business if you had less than $500 in startup capital, you treat your employees with respect and pay them a modest wage with full health care, life insurance, and a 401K while getting quality work and high productivity in return.

Probably a lot easier, actually.


YOU are crazy. If you have $500 in startup capital, you have no employees. You have yourself. And that's it. No office, no nothing.
 
2013-07-30 10:05:34 PM  

WhyteRaven74: tenpoundsofcheese: Very little drove those sales

so demand increased out of the ether? It had nothing to do with people being paid more and more year after year?


Are you really that dense?
Eventually as those foreign products became good enough and at good enough prices and as they built up their marketing and distribution, people started buying those products.  They weren't buying cheaper foreign products because their wages were going up.
 
2013-07-30 10:06:47 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Close all the fast food places in those shiathole cities and everybody will be happy.


As opposed to all the non-shiathole cities where there is nary a McDonald's or a Panera to be found!
 
2013-07-30 10:07:14 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: If it puts some of the stores out of business, oh well. Competitors will step in that are able to make the numbers work and can pay living wages while still earning a profit. Maybe it won't be a $150K profit per store, and maybe they won't be able to pay the franchise fees that McDonalds charges, but there's still money to be made and someone will be willing to do it for the amount of profit that can still be made while paying a living wage.


That's some AWESOME logic by the way.

'So what if paying these wages drives established businesses with a proven business model out of business, leaving all the employees unemployed. Somehow (magically) some as yet undetermined magical mystery fast food chain will poof into existence offering an even higher wage (by serving unicorn burgers) and everyone will live happily ever after.'

Have you somehow not noticed that Burger King, Chik-Fil-A, Wendy's, Subway, Jack in the Box, Bojangles, Whataburger, Sonic, White Castle, etc. ALL follow the same basic wage levels? Surely if there was some heretofore amazing fast food business model that worked by paying high turnover unskilled workers double the prevailing wage, they would be a break-away success in the last 60 years of fast food?
 
2013-07-30 10:08:09 PM  
i1043.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-30 10:08:38 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: jst3p: Nice how you cut what you couldn't argue against.

Ha ha ha... Jesus Farking Christ. Get over yourself Perry Mason. I section out the previous blah blah blah blah in most of my responses to avoid the wall of text.

Like I'm doing it to avoid some salient, argument busting comment you made... don't flatter yourself.

I'm gonna go pour used oil down a storm drain and club some baby seals now. I might even go across the street to the Welfare office and yell at all the smelly poor people. Wanna join me? You can hug them and give them your money.


If that soothes your simple mind, go for it.

/bless your heart
 
2013-07-30 10:10:10 PM  

CaliNJGuy: Pray 4 Mojo: CaliNJGuy: Yes it is. And if it isn't you should be asking yourself why at Tesco's latest AGM shareholders agitated loud and long for Tesco to shed itself of its US division Fresh & Easy sooner rather than later (F&E has cost Tesco billions thus far and never turned a profit). I can't believe they aren't overjoyed to be losing that kind of money.

He he he... awesome. I've had extensive experience interacting with Fresh and Easy on a business to business level.

They are a management disaster. Total, complete and unmitigated disaster... and still hemorrhaging money.

I would expect that their story is going to be taught in business schools some day as a cautionary example.

I work for a company that has been a technology vendor to F&E since their inception and couldn't agree w/you more.  My first contact w/them was at the mock store they built in their El Segundo facility and the walls couldn't contain the hubris coming out of that place.  They are getting what they deserve.


Ha ha ha!! We should totally tell F&E stories! My company built a few of their stores in Vegas... that are now shuttered. One I built never even opened. Still sitting there last I checked. One of my colleagues said it best when asked WTF happened to F&E: "Four jackasses from England got on a plane to come over here and show us dumb Yanks how things really work. While they were swinging their big dicks around... America just chuckled and kicked 'em square in the balls."
 
2013-07-30 10:10:43 PM  

KeatingFive: YOU are crazy. If you have $500 in startup capital, you have no employees. You have yourself. And that's it. No office, no nothing.


And yet I did. Not all at once, of course, and dear lord was it hard, but not one paycheck was late or missed (though maybe a rent check here or there) and we've been doing fine for about a decade now.
 
2013-07-30 10:11:16 PM  

jst3p: 'm gonna go pour used oil down a storm drain and club some baby seals now. I might even go across the street to the Welfare office and yell at all the smelly poor people. Wanna join me? You can hug them and give them your money.


Fortunately, I live across the street from the Salvation Army soup kitchen, so I can just whip half-empty lattes at the poor from my home office window.
 
2013-07-30 10:12:29 PM  

leadmetal: bbfreak: accelerus: without analyzing shiat....

ask yourself this.

Do you think someone has a GED from high school, wears his pants at the bottom of his ass, and really really sucks at math... do you think they are worth $15/hour?

The reason you are paid minimum wage is because you are more than likely a person who always achieved the minimum in life. Grades/savings/common sense. I'd be willing to bet a sizeable sum that even if you put all that extra money into the hands of "those people" they wouldn't know to handle is properly.  They wouldn't pay off their credit cards, or student loans, it would be spent on dumb crap that dumb people like to buy.  Rims, booze, cigarettes, partying, eating out, a new car you (still) really can't afford.

Wow, what an asshole you are. Writing off millions of Americans. Let them eat cake eh?

So I return to my previous question. How much more are you willing to pay for all sorts of consumer goods to pay more to the people who bothered to go through all the difficult schooling and long hours on the job so you could buy them? People ask why so few americans go into engineering and science these days. But they rarely have the right answer. The work/reward ratio sucks.

Keep that work/reward idea in mind when making interventions like the minimum wage. If employers demand more work for the greater reward then people are going to be knocked off the job ladder. If the lower rung jobs just pay more and everyone else remains the same then more people will find these lower rung jobs good enough. If everyone is raised all that has been accomplished to shift the scale over and now all the people on the bottom rungs are just as poor as they were before while the numbers are larger.


To answer your question would mean accepting your faulty logic, so I'm not going to answer. I do have a question for you though. So its OK to you that there are so many homeless people, people who haven't been to a doctor in year, can't afford to send their kids to college, etc? Scrapping by is OK to you? That is the embodiment of a great nation that treats its poorest like moochers/worthless bums? I think not.
 
2013-07-30 10:15:34 PM  

stuhayes2010: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

That's why items are the same price at Costco who pays its employees $45k on average versus SAMs Club who pays minimum wage.


That really is an incomplete and stupid comparison.

The average profit per employee is $10k for Costco and 7,400 for Walmart.

So for every $1M in salary they pay, Costco gets $222k in profit and Walmart gets $423K.

That is just salary, so if they pay more for benefits, the Costco picture is far worse.