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(Huffington Post)   How much more would a Big Mac cost if McDonald's were to double employees' pay? Take a guess, then click the link   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 763
    More: Interesting, Big Macs, Mcdonald, Jimmy John Liautaud, living wages, University of Kansas, minimum wages, salary  
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39533 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jul 2013 at 6:53 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-31 12:53:43 AM

gameshowhost: bunner: Economies - are - wealth redistribution.  From whom, to whom and by what means is why there's a college course you can take that lets you condescend to people like you just had lunch with God.

People that have only taken one course tend to be the ones with the most comical misunderstanding.  Like Reason.com followers.

/am being generous when i assume that reason.com followers have any post-secondary education


Well, Christ Jesus man, you're like a post op Mother Theresa.  I don't know if you've noticed this but, um, the wise and mind pronouncements of economists have, at this point, not prevented us from arriving, precisely, here.
 
2013-07-31 12:53:49 AM

TuteTibiImperes: leadmetal: bbfreak: To answer your question would mean accepting your faulty logic, so I'm not going to answer. I do have a question for you though. So its OK to you that there are so many homeless people, people who haven't been to a doctor in year, can't afford to send their kids to college, etc? Scrapping by is OK to you? That is the embodiment of a great nation that treats its poorest like moochers/worthless bums? I think not.

More emoting and misdirection. My question is a practical and logical one. If government is going to make no effort result a rather good standard of living, what's the point of achieving marginally more or the same by putting in a shiat ton of effort?

Imagine for a moment you are working for a company and you're just working your ass off. You make them say, three million dollars. At the end of your first year you get the same bonus as everyone else in the company and the same raise. Imagine if this goes on for a couple three years. What do you do? Do you keep busting your ass or do you reduce your effort to the level of the other people knowing your raise won't change, your bonus won't change, and you won't get promoted just like in the years you busted your ass?

So what you're telling me is that a no effort, no skill job should make something that can minimally support a family, say $40K/yr. Now what's the motivation to get an engineering degree and start at $45K/yr when you can not work your ass off and make 40K? No 60 hour weeks, no trips to industrial china, no bullshiat. Just flip burgers or put tab a into slot b. No years of school and student loan debt either.

That's actually a great argument to raise the minimum wage.  If a burger flipper can earn $15 an hour, then engineering firms will have to pay significantly more to offset the cost of schooling that goes with the degree and whatever extra hours are required.  So if the lowest wage earns you $30K a year, jobs with more requirements will have to pay more to get the best peop ...


No company ever pays an offsetting wage for the cost of schooling.  Does an English teacher from Harvard make 10x the amount as an English teacher from South Dakota State?  For that matter, does any school offer a significant cachet in the form of higher salaries for their new graduates?
 
2013-07-31 12:54:33 AM

gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese: Supply demand how does that work?

You do realize that supply and demand is not some magical framework designed by Adam Smith, but is simply a result of human behavior, right?

That is to say, supply and demand applies in any economic system, from laissez-faire to pure communism.  Just because there's a dot where the two curves intersect doesn't mean it's the correct dot that meets the fundamental requirement of efficient economic transactions, such that price = cost to society.

Okay. There's your lesson for today. *pats you on your propeller beanie* Run along now.


You do realize that minimum wage laws are an externality that you said shouldn't exist for their to be a level playing field right?


Supply and demand will always create a difference in market power so that is the second bullet to your argument.
 
2013-07-31 12:54:45 AM
We should be more progressive like Zimbabwe and everyone can have a shiat load of cash for minimum wage. Here is a fries cook from McDonalds cashing his check in Zimbabwe. Now that's what we should have here. This is America damnit! I wanna live the dream!

economictimes.indiatimes.com
 
2013-07-31 12:56:44 AM

muck4doo: Teachers should also be payed like Major League Baseball players.


Well... *someone* has to teach you the difference between "payed" and "paid".  :-|
 
2013-07-31 12:58:22 AM
SCUBA_Archer: No company ever pays an offsetting wage for the cost of schooling.  Does an English teacher from Harvard make 10x the amount as an English teacher from South Dakota State?  For that matter, does any school offer a significant cachet in the form of higher salaries for their new graduates?

Doctors make more than nurses who make more than EMTs.  Tenured professors make more than high school teachers who make more than non-certificate-holding substitutes.  Engineers make more than fast food employees.

Employers don't directly compensate based on schooling, but professions that require more training and schooling typically pay higher wages because there are less people available in the applicant pool who qualify, and because they have to offer higher wages to given incentives for people to undergo the schooling in the first place.

If doctors only made $40,000 per year, no one would be willing to rack up $100,000+ in med school debt to become one.
 
2013-07-31 01:00:24 AM

TuteTibiImperes: tenpoundsofcheese: Engineering firms, like all others, pay for your output. They don't pay based on what it cost you to get your skills or based on what a burger flipper gets.

Exactly, and to get the highest output they'll need the most talented employees.  In order to motivate people to pay for the education and training to become the most talented engineers, they'll need to offer pay substantially greater than what one could get straight out of high school.


Or they can petition Congress to release more H1-B visas and hire a bunch of Indians and Pakistanis for pennies on the dollar, and let the Engineering graduates compete for the $15/hr jobs with the unschooled masses
 
2013-07-31 01:00:45 AM

Jormungandr: The real question here is "What is a human worth apart from what they can presently contribute?"

This bad boy, or its descendents are the future of fast food. The death knell for the McJob is tolling. So this whole argument is really moot.
The military is automating too, if burger flipping and gruntwork are out what then? That is the question! Answering the phones goes overseas or hell, automation is hitting there (call the Microsoft activation line: you never talk to a real person) too. What do you do with the grunts when all the grunt work is gone?

Here's a thought: Maybe the grunts aren't useless inherently (I have a hard time with the idea of someone being inherently worthless) education could be the problem, education isn't designed to foster creative thought and educating children in things that require a developed prefrontal cortex doesn't work. Could the answer just be educating adults to tutor children, that might take a couple generations to make significant change, but something must happen because the changes are coming and they will come quickly and they will not be something that can be ignored. Of course doing nothing will lead to legions of desperate people with no prospects. Desperate people do desperate things and none of us want that, except those who want to watch the world burn.


I think the point it to look forward to a world that will exist, not backward to a world that no longer exists and will never exist again (let's look at the 1950s, unions, Volkswagen. Or let's pretend that minimum wage laws are not an externality and that supply and demand doesn't affect labor markets)
 
2013-07-31 01:01:16 AM

TuteTibiImperes: If doctors only made $40,000 per year, no one would be willing to rack up $100,000+ in med school debt to become one.


Which explains a lot about both the end motivations of those who deign to say they are healers AND 120k Liberal Arts degrees.
 
2013-07-31 01:03:22 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: You think 25b is not a huge Payday for bezos?


That $25 billion is what he is worth, his actual salary doesn't even crack $80,000.
 
2013-07-31 01:03:28 AM
Did I forget to mention diploma mills as profit centers?
 
2013-07-31 01:04:35 AM

gameshowhost: muck4doo: Teachers should also be payed like Major League Baseball players.

Well... *someone* has to teach you the difference between "payed" and "paid".  :-|


gameshowhost: muck4doo: Teachers should also be payed like Major League Baseball players.

Well... *someone* has to teach you the difference between "payed" and "paid".  :-|


:->
 
2013-07-31 01:07:26 AM

WhyteRaven74: tenpoundsofcheese: You think 25b is not a huge Payday for bezos?

That $25 billion is what he is worth, his actual salary doesn't even crack $80,000.


So the 25b doesn't count at all?

That makes no sense even for you.
 
2013-07-31 01:07:38 AM

SCUBA_Archer: TuteTibiImperes: tenpoundsofcheese: Engineering firms, like all others, pay for your output. They don't pay based on what it cost you to get your skills or based on what a burger flipper gets.

Exactly, and to get the highest output they'll need the most talented employees.  In order to motivate people to pay for the education and training to become the most talented engineers, they'll need to offer pay substantially greater than what one could get straight out of high school.

Or they can petition Congress to release more H1-B visas and hire a bunch of Indians and Pakistanis for pennies on the dollar, and let the Engineering graduates compete for the $15/hr jobs with the unschooled masses


I'd be all for ending that program or at least severely reducing the number of those we give out.
 
2013-07-31 01:09:10 AM
The history of fiat money is the history of user application error and trying to convince people that your debt is more valuable than their rent receipt.
 
2013-07-31 01:09:59 AM
Well, if you own a business and think this is a great idea, go and try this and report back to the group how it went.

You can get your own franchise if you'd like, and try out all these great ideas that you have about how to make business run better. Then you can write a book about it showing everyone how easy it was and the great results you got.
 
2013-07-31 01:10:04 AM
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait until illegal immigrants get amnesty
 
2013-07-31 01:10:17 AM

bunner: TuteTibiImperes: If doctors only made $40,000 per year, no one would be willing to rack up $100,000+ in med school debt to become one.

Which explains a lot about both the end motivations of those who deign to say they are healers AND 120k Liberal Arts degrees.


Going that far into debt to get a degree that doesn't lead to a defined high paying career path is pretty insane.  Then again it's also insane IMO to attend a $30K per year school when you can get the same quality of an education at many state universities for a fraction of that amount.
 
2013-07-31 01:11:32 AM

TuteTibiImperes: SCUBA_Archer: No company ever pays an offsetting wage for the cost of schooling.  Does an English teacher from Harvard make 10x the amount as an English teacher from South Dakota State?  For that matter, does any school offer a significant cachet in the form of higher salaries for their new graduates?

Doctors make more than nurses who make more than EMTs.  Tenured professors make more than high school teachers who make more than non-certificate-holding substitutes.  Engineers make more than fast food employees.

Employers don't directly compensate based on schooling, but professions that require more training and schooling typically pay higher wages because there are less people available in the applicant pool who qualify, and because they have to offer higher wages to given incentives for people to undergo the schooling in the first place.

If doctors only made $40,000 per year, no one would be willing to rack up $100,000+ in med school debt to become one.


You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth.  Are doctors paid more because they have to rack up more debt in schooling or because there's a small, select group of people who have the qualifications to become doctors?

A dockworker/stevedore at Long Beach can make $200k+ a year unloading ships.  Most of these guys don't have any college educations.  Based on your logic, you must need several PhD's in order to run a dock crane moving containers off ships.  No employer needs to pay that much with just a GED.

And racking up huge debt is no indicator, either.  I know plenty of folks with $100k+ in college debt who are fighting to keep their barista job at Starbucks.  Shouldn't these people be fighting off recruiters wanting to hire such elite folks with their fancy diplomas?
 
2013-07-31 01:12:20 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: This is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait until illegal immigrants get amnesty


Yes, when they can start paying taxes into the system, when businesses will no longer be able to pay them below minimum wage (which depresses real wages), and when they'll be able to establish credit, get car/home loans and start contributing as full members of the economy.  That'll sure be a tragedy.
 
2013-07-31 01:14:22 AM

TuteTibiImperes: bunner: TuteTibiImperes: If doctors only made $40,000 per year, no one would be willing to rack up $100,000+ in med school debt to become one.

Which explains a lot about both the end motivations of those who deign to say they are healers AND 120k Liberal Arts degrees.

Going that far into debt to get a degree that doesn't lead to a defined high paying career path is pretty insane.  Then again it's also insane IMO to attend a $30K per year school when you can get the same quality of an education at many state universities for a fraction of that amount.


You are paying for pedigree, networking connections, a stamp of approval and snob appeal.  Education is largely a secondary consideration of the hallowed halls, much as the healing arts are a secondary consideration to hospital staffs.  It's all piece work and everybody involved is really interested in your bank statement.  Welcome to 19th century rules of thumb with 21st century population numbers and post economy economics.
 
2013-07-31 01:14:26 AM
I just love threads where republicans prove how much they hate the poor. Very christian indeed.
 
2013-07-31 01:15:03 AM

GF named my left testicle thundercles: the best way to improve the plight of low wage workers (and all other workers too) is to curtail the supply of labor. I would end all almost all forms of immigration.


this
 
2013-07-31 01:17:35 AM
According to a student... Wake me when someone with an associates degree agrees with her.
 
2013-07-31 01:19:22 AM

Z1P2: According to a student... Wake me when someone with an associates degree agrees with her.


Surely anybody's opinion worth considering in any such ostensibly high minded and lofty matters has a baccalaureate?  *snork*
 
2013-07-31 01:19:27 AM

Thunderpipes: My first job was at age 14. True Value Hardware in Swanton, VT. I think it was 1986? 2 bucks an hour under the table. Second job, minimum wage, at a full service gas station. Cold in the winter here. Worked all through high school at minimum wage, so could have gas for my car and to buy really cheap beer. Everyone did. It was how we got money.

Kids really don't even do this stuff any more do they? This is why we fail.


There's no real point, especially in a post Cash-for-clunkers world.  $8/hour at part time doesn't even pay for gas, much less a car payment or repairs on an affordable car.  And when you're blowing 45 hours a week between school and commutes, you've got 6 AP's dropping 1-3 hours a night of homework, and you're better off on your college application being involved in 3 clubs plus saving the orphans in Guatemala [or other socially liberal "doing well by doing good" activity] than working part-time just to try to have a hope in hell of affording your car, you're better off mooching off your richer friends then trying to own a car.

Then you go to college, and the campus bus system (or your own two feet) lets you get around OK, and parking is $600/semester to be a 15 minute walk from classes when the buses go from the dorms right to classes, so there's no bloody point.  And once again, you're BETTER OFF joining the "right" clubs, networking like hell, and building a resume so that you can hopefully have a job once you get out of college than getting part-time minimum wage jobs during college.  I knew a lot of people in Computer Science who were having trouble getting jobs because they hadn't been aggressively building a resume since freshman year.  (Mind you, they ALSO tended to be people I wouldn't trust near my code with a 20 foot pole, so I can't say that's entirely a bad thing).

So now you get out, but you're living in [insanely expensive city here] in downtown because the traffic sucks and even with mass transit, the only way to have a commute under an hour is to live within a 10 block radius of work in some bug-infested shiathole of an apartment in downtown for over half your takehome because the city planners wanted "Transit-Oriented Development"* (and given that you're making close to 6 figures, where the FARK are all the janitors living?).  So even if you wanted a car, you can't afford one or deal with the parking and traffic.

* For better or for worse, the only places I've seen average Americans be able to own their own homes with actual yards are the places where transit just didn't exist because of low density.  Even in Silicon Valley, the average senior programmer (making 150+K in base salary and another $50K in stocks) can't afford to actually purchase their own home because of all the multi-millionaires and billionaires dropping cash offers.
 
2013-07-31 01:19:37 AM

SCUBA_Archer: TuteTibiImperes: SCUBA_Archer: No company ever pays an offsetting wage for the cost of schooling.  Does an English teacher from Harvard make 10x the amount as an English teacher from South Dakota State?  For that matter, does any school offer a significant cachet in the form of higher salaries for their new graduates?

Doctors make more than nurses who make more than EMTs.  Tenured professors make more than high school teachers who make more than non-certificate-holding substitutes.  Engineers make more than fast food employees.

Employers don't directly compensate based on schooling, but professions that require more training and schooling typically pay higher wages because there are less people available in the applicant pool who qualify, and because they have to offer higher wages to given incentives for people to undergo the schooling in the first place.

If doctors only made $40,000 per year, no one would be willing to rack up $100,000+ in med school debt to become one.

You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth.  Are doctors paid more because they have to rack up more debt in schooling or because there's a small, select group of people who have the qualifications to become doctors?

A dockworker/stevedore at Long Beach can make $200k+ a year unloading ships.  Most of these guys don't have any college educations.  Based on your logic, you must need several PhD's in order to run a dock crane moving containers off ships.  No employer needs to pay that much with just a GED.

And racking up huge debt is no indicator, either.  I know plenty of folks with $100k+ in college debt who are fighting to keep their barista job at Starbucks.  Shouldn't these people be fighting off recruiters wanting to hire such elite folks with their fancy diplomas?


You're clearly not grasping the point here.  People who go deep into debt for degrees without a high paying career at the end are outliers, I'm not saying that the cost of your degree automatically means that you should get a high paying job after it.

On that same token, yes, there are certainly jobs that don't require degrees that can pay very well.  Those stevedores also have the benefit of a strong union fighting for them so that they can earn those wages.  Most unskilled laborers, especially those without union representation, don't come close to those figures.

I believe that almost anyone, given the motivation and desire, has the capability to become a doctor.  Obviously despite the high earning potential it's not a career path for everyone.  However, the high pay is certainly a motivating factor for many of those that do.

My point is - if you want people to invest heavily in specialized training or education, they typically need to see a reward at the end of it.  If I could work at McDonalds for $40K per year, or work at an engineering firm for $40K per year after investing in undergraduate and masters degree, I'd have to really love engineering to take that job for the same pay as I could get without incurring that educational debt (not considering scholarships).

Therefore, in a world where minimum wage employees can earn $40K per year, employers that require employees with specific educational backgrounds and training will have to pay considerably more to encourage those people to take the classes and earn the degrees to take those jobs.
 
2013-07-31 01:20:20 AM

bunner: gameshowhost: bunner: Economies - are - wealth redistribution.  From whom, to whom and by what means is why there's a college course you can take that lets you condescend to people like you just had lunch with God.

People that have only taken one course tend to be the ones with the most comical misunderstanding.  Like Reason.com followers.

/am being generous when i assume that reason.com followers have any post-secondary education

Well, Christ Jesus man, you're like a post op Mother Theresa.  I don't know if you've noticed this but, um, the wise and mind pronouncements of economists have, at this point, not prevented us from arriving, precisely, here.


Utter hogwash.

If you're speaking about the state of the economy over the past ~35 yrs, we've 'arrived where we' are due to following the economic philosophy of laissez-faire hacks who were proven incorrect both in theory, long before Thatcher/Reagan spread their b.s., and in reality ever since.   FFS, King Greenspan himself admitted such failure before congress.

Accepted, mainstream economics - as taught in accredited colleges around the United States - worked well before, would have worked better than the shiat policies we've adopted over the past 3+ decades, and still works. It wasn't ~perfect~ before, it isn't perfect now, but it had/has more explanatory (and predictive) power than the alternative theories attempting to explain the complex interactions of human beings as they attempt to best allocate limited resources.

It wasn't until idiot politicians (the direct result/product of idiot citizens) started worshiping at the laissez-faire golden calf -- presumably because it sounds so delightfully freedom-y -- that the shiat started hitting the fan.

Would you blame astronomers if policymakers took astrology seriously?  OMG WAIT REAGAN AGAIN LOL
 
2013-07-31 01:22:18 AM

TuteTibiImperes: tenpoundsofcheese: This is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait until illegal immigrants get amnesty

Yes, when they can start paying taxes into the system, when businesses will no longer be able to pay them below minimum wage (which depresses real wages), and when they'll be able to establish credit, get car/home loans and start contributing as full members of the economy.  That'll sure be a tragedy.


And yet you want to cut the number of h1-b visas or even get rid of that program? That makes no sense.
 
2013-07-31 01:22:31 AM

ferretman: If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.


So demand will go down if everyone has more money to spend?  You sir are a genius.
 
2013-07-31 01:23:33 AM

gameshowhost: If you're speaking about the state of the economy over the past ~35 yrs, we've 'arrived where we' are due to following the economic philosophy of laissez-faire hacks who were proven incorrect both in theory, long before Thatcher/Reagan spread their b.s., and in reality ever since.   FFS, King Greenspan himself admitted such failure before congress.


And yet.
 
2013-07-31 01:25:06 AM
tenpoundsofcheese:

You do realize that minimum wage laws are an externality that you said shouldn't exist for their to be a level playing field right?


Supply and demand will always create a difference in market power so that is the second bullet to your argument.


1) Minimum wage laws are price floors that *address* the market failure "not a level playing field".  Get your cause-effect in order.

2) i... wat... just, wat?
 
2013-07-31 01:25:11 AM
Cardinal cosmology does not a viable methodology make.  You just get to argue about the lack of it with all the approved nomenclature.
 
2013-07-31 01:26:41 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: TuteTibiImperes: tenpoundsofcheese: This is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait until illegal immigrants get amnesty

Yes, when they can start paying taxes into the system, when businesses will no longer be able to pay them below minimum wage (which depresses real wages), and when they'll be able to establish credit, get car/home loans and start contributing as full members of the economy.  That'll sure be a tragedy.

And yet you want to cut the number of h1-b visas or even get rid of that program? That makes no sense.


It makes perfect sense.  The illegals who are already here are a drain on resources without contributing back and depress wages through a willingness to work for less than minimum wage.  Legitimizing people who are already here makes great economic sense.  I'm not advocating for full open borders with Mexico and letting anyone in who wants to come in, I'm just saying that those who are already here should be brought out into the open so that they can become contributing tax paying members of society.

H1-B visa holders aren't illegals - they're just here taking skilled jobs from Americans at wages lower than what many Americans would demand.  Ending that program will allow skilled and educated American workers to earn more pay and stop corporations from cheaping out by hiring a guy from India just because he's willing to work for less.
 
2013-07-31 01:28:27 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: So the 25b doesn't count at all?


it's net worth, Bezos has no real say so in what that is. Indeed it's other people thinking Amazon is worth something thanks to the work he's done that determines it. Bezos could get his actual salary upped but as far as his net worth, that's just up to the opinions of other people. At the end of the day, stock prices are nothing but statements of opinion.
 
2013-07-31 01:28:51 AM

TuteTibiImperes: I'm not advocating for full open borders with Mexico and letting anyone in who wants to come in


So, if you start getting cocaine from people who are into mass open graves full of decapitated tourists, all the sudden it's "teh dirty Messkins"?  *snort*
 
2013-07-31 01:30:27 AM

WhyteRaven74: At the end of the day, stock prices are nothing but statements of opinion.


Hit Ctrl + P and tape this to your fridge.
 
2013-07-31 01:33:53 AM
All it would take is an ad, and a poster comment that this 17 cent increase per dollar doubles the employee wages.
Everyone would go for it.

But then, would they actually give the employees a wage increase?
I'd bet the answer is... "Ah hell, look at these profits!" (No farking way.)
 
2013-07-31 01:34:19 AM

BojanglesPaladin: why doesn't everyone shop at Costco?


s3.amazonaws.com
Oh, they will.
 
2013-07-31 01:35:27 AM

bunner: gameshowhost: If you're speaking about the state of the economy over the past ~35 yrs, we've 'arrived where we' are due to following the economic philosophy of laissez-faire hacks who were proven incorrect both in theory, long before Thatcher/Reagan spread their b.s., and in reality ever since.   FFS, King Greenspan himself admitted such failure before congress.

And yet.


My whole point was that you blamed the entire field of economics when it was the fringe nutbag theorists who were responsible.  Other nations that eschewed laissez-fail and instead utilized the metered, socially-balanced, empirically-justifiable approach of mainstream economics don't have the basic allocation problems that we have.  Consider Germany, the Nordic countries, Canada, etc.

Look -- econ is a social science. It's imperfect, but that doesn't mean it's invalid.
 
2013-07-31 01:36:41 AM

Stoker: All it would take is an ad, and a poster comment that this 17 cent increase per dollar doubles the employee wages.
Everyone would go for it.

But then, would they actually give the employees a wage increase?
I'd bet the answer is... "Ah hell, look at these profits!" (No farking way.)


I have an economics theory.  I call it the Bunne Rabb Greater Motherf*cker Theory.  It essentially states that, if you give somebody anything of value whatsoever, they tend to keep it.
 
2013-07-31 01:38:56 AM

gameshowhost: My whole point was that you blamed the entire field of economics


I'm not holding economics as a whole's feet the fire, I'm saying that the entire practice seems to be largely inconsequential, much like some fat f*ck in a Lay Z Boy telling you what you just saw happen in the football game on TeeVee.
 
2013-07-31 01:42:53 AM

gameshowhost: Look -- econ is a social science. It's imperfect, but that doesn't mean it's invalid.


It helps when you remember the social part. After all, economic activity is social activity.
 
2013-07-31 01:43:28 AM

bunner: gameshowhost: My whole point was that you blamed the entire field of economics

I'm not holding economics as a whole's feet the fire, I'm saying that the entire practice seems to be largely inconsequential, much like some fat f*ck in a Lay Z Boy telling you what you just saw happen in the football game on TeeVee.


*blink* ok, so you're just saying it's worthless...

Ok, I'll bite. Let's say it is. The next question is what's the alternative?  Remove economic analysis from everything.  What do you put in its place? If anything, that is.
 
2013-07-31 01:45:02 AM

WhyteRaven74: After all, economic activity is social activity.


Which usually requires a codified method of conduct, a contract, if you will, to keep from becoming irresponsible.
 
2013-07-31 01:46:05 AM

gameshowhost: What do you put in its place? If anything, that is.


Wouldn't the Invisible Hand® fill the void?   :  )
 
2013-07-31 01:46:24 AM

gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese:

You do realize that minimum wage laws are an externality that you said shouldn't exist for their to be a level playing field right?


Supply and demand will always create a difference in market power so that is the second bullet to your argument.

1) Minimum wage laws are price floors that *address* the market failure "not a level playing field".  Get your cause-effect in order.


You said:  "That underlying, rigid structure is predicated on 1) there being no externalities to the transaction" so floor or not,minimum wage laws are externalities that prevent efficient pricing.

2) i... wat... just, wat?

You also said there needs to be a level playing field.  Supply and demand influence pricing in the labor markets as well as who has the advantage on the playing field.
 
2013-07-31 01:46:41 AM

gameshowhost: What do you put in its place? If anything, that is.


I suspect returning to the field's origins, moral philosophy, is not going to be the answer.
 
2013-07-31 01:49:41 AM

WhyteRaven74: gameshowhost: What do you put in its place? If anything, that is.

I suspect returning to the field's origins, moral philosophy, is not going to be the answer.


"Moral philosophy?  You want moral philosophy?  My car costs more than your house because I am a winner!"  The people who move the most money around, I suspect, do not give a William nor Nilliam, polly wolly doo dah f*ck about morals or  economics
 
2013-07-31 01:50:12 AM

WhyteRaven74: gameshowhost: Look -- econ is a social science. It's imperfect, but that doesn't mean it's invalid.

It helps when you remember the social part. After all, economic activity is social activity.


Heh. Economics is the only "science" of human behavior I know of where you can specify a theory, and if/when the empirical evidence fails to demonstrate that theory, you can blame reality for being flawed.

/"When conditions X through Z are met, A will produce B in accordance with function F."
\"Ok, but conditions X through Z are never met in observable reality. That just not how people and their institutions actually operate. Ever. Anywhere."
/"STFU AND ADMIRE FUNCTION F! ADMIRE IT! MAAAAAATH!"
 
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