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(Huffington Post)   How much more would a Big Mac cost if McDonald's were to double employees' pay? Take a guess, then click the link   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 763
    More: Interesting, Big Macs, Mcdonald, Jimmy John Liautaud, living wages, University of Kansas, minimum wages, salary  
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39516 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jul 2013 at 6:53 PM (37 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-31 12:03:58 AM
This just in: people who simply hand you things don't add much value
 
2013-07-31 12:04:44 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: Am not RTFT but I wonder how many derpers are intentionally ignoring the fact that equal bargaining power is a prerequisite to an efficiently operating free market, and are resorting to every red herring in the book to avoid addressing said fact...

/doesn't mean that legislating 2x the wages is necessarily the solution
//buyers of labor (employers) and sellers of labor (employees) must be contracting wages/compensation on a level negotiating field
///does mean that equilibrium wages are artificially depressed due to the exorbitant leverage buyers of labor have over sellers of labor
//does mean that we aren't living in anything resembling an efficiently operating free market environment
/does mean that mcdonald's shareholders are the only ones winning this race to the bottom and that you dumbshiats should quit white knighting them

They must do it on a level negotiating field? Wtf does that mean?

You don't believe in the dynamics of supply and demand?


Are you an economics wizard?
 
2013-07-31 12:05:15 AM

gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: Am not RTFT but I wonder how many derpers are intentionally ignoring the fact that equal bargaining power is a prerequisite to an efficiently operating free market, and are resorting to every red herring in the book to avoid addressing said fact...

/doesn't mean that legislating 2x the wages is necessarily the solution
//buyers of labor (employers) and sellers of labor (employees) must be contracting wages/compensation on a level negotiating field
///does mean that equilibrium wages are artificially depressed due to the exorbitant leverage buyers of labor have over sellers of labor
//does mean that we aren't living in anything resembling an efficiently operating free market environment
/does mean that mcdonald's shareholders are the only ones winning this race to the bottom and that you dumbshiats should quit white knighting them

They must do it on a level negotiating field? Wtf does that mean?

You don't believe in the dynamics of supply and demand?

Are you an economics wizard?


Yes
 
2013-07-31 12:06:08 AM

ScaryBottles: Thunderpipes: My first job was at age 14. True Value Hardware in Swanton, VT. I think it was 1986? 2 bucks an hour under the table. Second job, minimum wage, at a full service gas station. Cold in the winter here. Worked all through high school at minimum wage, so could have gas for my car and to buy really cheap beer. Everyone did. It was how we got money.

Kids really don't even do this stuff any more do they? This is why we fail.

Go change your depends grampa


At least I work, Obama loving lazy guy.
 
2013-07-31 12:06:49 AM

leadmetal: bbfreak: To answer your question would mean accepting your faulty logic, so I'm not going to answer. I do have a question for you though. So its OK to you that there are so many homeless people, people who haven't been to a doctor in year, can't afford to send their kids to college, etc? Scrapping by is OK to you? That is the embodiment of a great nation that treats its poorest like moochers/worthless bums? I think not.

More emoting and misdirection. My question is a practical and logical one. If government is going to make no effort result a rather good standard of living, what's the point of achieving marginally more or the same by putting in a shiat ton of effort?

Imagine for a moment you are working for a company and you're just working your ass off. You make them say, three million dollars. At the end of your first year you get the same bonus as everyone else in the company and the same raise. Imagine if this goes on for a couple three years. What do you do? Do you keep busting your ass or do you reduce your effort to the level of the other people knowing your raise won't change, your bonus won't change, and you won't get promoted just like in the years you busted your ass?

So what you're telling me is that a no effort, no skill job should make something that can minimally support a family, say $40K/yr. Now what's the motivation to get an engineering degree and start at $45K/yr when you can not work your ass off and make 40K? No 60 hour weeks, no trips to industrial china, no bullshiat. Just flip burgers or put tab a into slot b. No years of school and student loan debt either.


That's actually a great argument to raise the minimum wage.  If a burger flipper can earn $15 an hour, then engineering firms will have to pay significantly more to offset the cost of schooling that goes with the degree and whatever extra hours are required.  So if the lowest wage earns you $30K a year, jobs with more requirements will have to pay more to get the best people.
 
2013-07-31 12:07:23 AM

PsiChick: Fano: Voiceofreason01: Pray 4 Mojo:
/If you work at Mcdonalds in an attempt to support anyone other than yourself, at some point, you failed at life.

because everybody can be a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company if they just work hard enough!

/that anybody can become a huge success regardless of their circumstances is probably the biggest lie of the "American Dream"

Well yeah, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

Isn't part of the point of the American Dream that the ditch diggers go home to a reasonable house and can make a better life for their children?


They are supposed to parley their moxie into something bigger. Or, like in the Horatio Alger stories, wait until money falls in your lap and then you get buggered by some rich fellow.
 
2013-07-31 12:08:05 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: Am not RTFT but I wonder how many derpers are intentionally ignoring the fact that equal bargaining power is a prerequisite to an efficiently operating free market, and are resorting to every red herring in the book to avoid addressing said fact...

/doesn't mean that legislating 2x the wages is necessarily the solution
//buyers of labor (employers) and sellers of labor (employees) must be contracting wages/compensation on a level negotiating field
///does mean that equilibrium wages are artificially depressed due to the exorbitant leverage buyers of labor have over sellers of labor
//does mean that we aren't living in anything resembling an efficiently operating free market environment
/does mean that mcdonald's shareholders are the only ones winning this race to the bottom and that you dumbshiats should quit white knighting them

They must do it on a level negotiating field? Wtf does that mean?

You don't believe in the dynamics of supply and demand?

Are you an economics wizard?

Yes


No, because you'd know that unequal bargaining power is, by economic definition, a market failure.

/you're so bad at this
//i mean, life, in general
 
2013-07-31 12:10:38 AM

TuteTibiImperes: leadmetal: bbfreak: To answer your question would mean accepting your faulty logic, so I'm not going to answer. I do have a question for you though. So its OK to you that there are so many homeless people, people who haven't been to a doctor in year, can't afford to send their kids to college, etc? Scrapping by is OK to you? That is the embodiment of a great nation that treats its poorest like moochers/worthless bums? I think not.

More emoting and misdirection. My question is a practical and logical one. If government is going to make no effort result a rather good standard of living, what's the point of achieving marginally more or the same by putting in a shiat ton of effort?

Imagine for a moment you are working for a company and you're just working your ass off. You make them say, three million dollars. At the end of your first year you get the same bonus as everyone else in the company and the same raise. Imagine if this goes on for a couple three years. What do you do? Do you keep busting your ass or do you reduce your effort to the level of the other people knowing your raise won't change, your bonus won't change, and you won't get promoted just like in the years you busted your ass?

So what you're telling me is that a no effort, no skill job should make something that can minimally support a family, say $40K/yr. Now what's the motivation to get an engineering degree and start at $45K/yr when you can not work your ass off and make 40K? No 60 hour weeks, no trips to industrial china, no bullshiat. Just flip burgers or put tab a into slot b. No years of school and student loan debt either.

That's actually a great argument to raise the minimum wage.  If a burger flipper can earn $15 an hour, then engineering firms will have to pay significantly more to offset the cost of schooling that goes with the degree and whatever extra hours are required.  So if the lowest wage earns you $30K a year, jobs with more requirements will have to pay more to get the best people.


That is exceptionally naive

Engineering firms, like all others, pay for your output. They don't pay based on what it cost you to get your skills or based on what a burger flipper gets.

They don't say our products should sell for more because we hired people who didnt get scholarships and took 6 years to graduate from a 4 year college.
 
2013-07-31 12:11:33 AM

ferretman: those great wages and pensions are no longer a viable option.


so that's why German auto workers are paid more than American ones. Also you may want to hit the history books a bit. Hell just hit wiki and look up when Germany started exporting the VW Beetle for a start.
 
2013-07-31 12:12:50 AM

TuteTibiImperes: leadmetal: bbfreak: To answer your question would mean accepting your faulty logic, so I'm not going to answer. I do have a question for you though. So its OK to you that there are so many homeless people, people who haven't been to a doctor in year, can't afford to send their kids to college, etc? Scrapping by is OK to you? That is the embodiment of a great nation that treats its poorest like moochers/worthless bums? I think not.

More emoting and misdirection. My question is a practical and logical one. If government is going to make no effort result a rather good standard of living, what's the point of achieving marginally more or the same by putting in a shiat ton of effort?

Imagine for a moment you are working for a company and you're just working your ass off. You make them say, three million dollars. At the end of your first year you get the same bonus as everyone else in the company and the same raise. Imagine if this goes on for a couple three years. What do you do? Do you keep busting your ass or do you reduce your effort to the level of the other people knowing your raise won't change, your bonus won't change, and you won't get promoted just like in the years you busted your ass?

So what you're telling me is that a no effort, no skill job should make something that can minimally support a family, say $40K/yr. Now what's the motivation to get an engineering degree and start at $45K/yr when you can not work your ass off and make 40K? No 60 hour weeks, no trips to industrial china, no bullshiat. Just flip burgers or put tab a into slot b. No years of school and student loan debt either.

That's actually a great argument to raise the minimum wage.  If a burger flipper can earn $15 an hour, then engineering firms will have to pay significantly more to offset the cost of schooling that goes with the degree and whatever extra hours are required.  So if the lowest wage earns you $30K a year, jobs with more requirements will have to pay more to get the best people.


That is exceptionally naive

Engineering firms, like all others, pay for your output. They don't pay based on what it cost you to get your skills or based on what a burger flipper gets.

They don't say our products should sell for more because we hired people who didnt get scholarships and took 6 years to graduate from a 4 year college.
 
2013-07-31 12:15:17 AM

Whiskey Dickens: This just in: people who simply hand you things don't add much value


In a related follow up, people who grab everything they can get their hands on and shove it up their ass, considerably less.
 
2013-07-31 12:17:06 AM

bunner: In a related follow up, people who grab everything they can get their hands on and shove it up their ass, considerably less.


What's funny is that CEOs who started the companies they run tend to not go for the huge paydays that hired guns go for. It's almost as if understanding what it is that has made the company what it is and actually invested their time into makes them see that it's not about them.
 
2013-07-31 12:17:11 AM

divx88: So ... some random student's research which more than likely has huge gaping holes of data is taken seriously?


If it tickles Farkers ears it does. The important thing is to have your opinion validated, no matter how asinine the source. In this case an anonymous student who did a study. What the student studies, and who they are doesn't matter. Huffington Post says they have it, then bye golly it must be true.
 
2013-07-31 12:18:29 AM

Thunderpipes: ScaryBottles: Thunderpipes: My first job was at age 14. True Value Hardware in Swanton, VT. I think it was 1986? 2 bucks an hour under the table. Second job, minimum wage, at a full service gas station. Cold in the winter here. Worked all through high school at minimum wage, so could have gas for my car and to buy really cheap beer. Everyone did. It was how we got money.

Kids really don't even do this stuff any more do they? This is why we fail.

Go change your depends grampa

At least I work, Obama loving lazy guy. at controlling my bodily functions.

 
2013-07-31 12:18:29 AM

WhyteRaven74: ferretman: those great wages and pensions are no longer a viable option.

so that's why German auto workers are paid more than American ones. Also you may want to hit the history books a bit. Hell just hit wiki and look up when Germany started exporting the VW Beetle for a start.


You mean the company that admitted they used 15000 slaves and concentration camp people to build cars? I don't think they had good pensions back then.
 
2013-07-31 12:19:16 AM

WhyteRaven74: It's almost as if understanding what it is that has made the company what it is and actually invested their time into makes them see that it's not about them.


You mean, like, investing your pride and ethics into creating something greater than the sum of the parts?  Nah, GTFO.
 
2013-07-31 12:20:13 AM
Assuming McDonald's doesn't decide to be ornery and make it a dollar
 
2013-07-31 12:20:40 AM
People who say we shouldn't do this have never been poor. It sucks and paying a buck more for a burger is not a big deal if it helps someone feed themselves or their kids.
 
2013-07-31 12:23:03 AM

WhyteRaven74: bunner: In a related follow up, people who grab everything they can get their hands on and shove it up their ass, considerably less.

What's funny is that CEOs who started the companies they run tend to not go for the huge paydays that hired guns go for. It's almost as if understanding what it is that has made the company what it is and actually invested their time into makes them see that it's not about them.


Citation?

Bill gates
Larry Ellison
Steve jobs
Michael dell


Would all laugh at you.
 
2013-07-31 12:23:03 AM

tzzhc4: People who say we shouldn't do this have never been poor. It sucks and paying a buck more for a burger is not a big deal if it helps someone feed themselves or their kids.


What if it's a poor person trying to eat and he only has a dollar?
 
2013-07-31 12:25:14 AM

ReapTheChaos: Marcus Aurelius: ferretman: FTA: "In other words, for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its <a data-cke-saved-href="http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/companies/mc donalds_jobs/index.ht m" target="_hplink">more than 500,000 U.S. employees."

Yes...there are no other costs besides employee pay and benefits. What the student hasn't taken into account, if minimum wage was doubled, the rising costs associated with the suppliers, the ones who manufacture the beef patties, chicken nuggets, soda syrup, shake mix, french fries, fish sandwiches, packaging suppliers, etc. These are all manufactured by other companies under contract to, in this case, McDonalds and are typically union-shops (at least on the east coast). If everyone's wages increase the product cost will increase and there will be less jobs.

Thank God you are nowhere near reality.

Setting the minimum wage close to the true living minimum wage floats all boats, and the economy grows much more quickly.

While companies like Walmart and McDonald's probably could pay $15 and hour by only raising prices on each item they sell a few cents, most smaller businesses would go bankrupt if they had to pay that much. Not only that, but other people start demanding pay raises as well. People with skills and experience who were making $15-20 an hour before minimum wage went up are going to demand an appropriate raise as well, and by all rights they deserve it.

After a year or two, when all the wage and price increases have finally settled down, the economy will be right back to where it was before, and $15 an hour minimum wage wont buy a damn thing more than it did at $7.25.


You are only doubling labour costs, not raw materials cost. Yes, raw material prices will increase due to their labour costs rising, but they won't double. You'll end up with wages doubling and overall prices going up by maybe 50%, to just toss a number out.

/hair bird, argument invalid, etc etc.
 
2013-07-31 12:26:11 AM

tzzhc4: People who say we shouldn't do this have never been poor. It sucks and paying a buck more for a burger is not a big deal if it helps someone feed themselves or their kids.


If corporations charged what stuff would actually cost after inflation, things would cost what they actually cost and they'd have to pay people enough to affo... to aff... wait a minute.  It's almost as if low prices keep people poor and entitled and turn every product into one more interchangeable mediocrity that you can unload on the public 39¢ profit at a time, 20,000,000 times a day!
 
2013-07-31 12:27:10 AM

gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: Am not RTFT but I wonder how many derpers are intentionally ignoring the fact that equal bargaining power is a prerequisite to an efficiently operating free market, and are resorting to every red herring in the book to avoid addressing said fact...

/doesn't mean that legislating 2x the wages is necessarily the solution
//buyers of labor (employers) and sellers of labor (employees) must be contracting wages/compensation on a level negotiating field
///does mean that equilibrium wages are artificially depressed due to the exorbitant leverage buyers of labor have over sellers of labor
//does mean that we aren't living in anything resembling an efficiently operating free market environment
/does mean that mcdonald's shareholders are the only ones winning this race to the bottom and that you dumbshiats should quit white knighting them

They must do it on a level negotiating field? Wtf does that mean?

You don't believe in the dynamics of supply and demand?

Are you an economics wizard?

Yes

No, because you'd know that unequal bargaining power is, by economic definition, a market failure.

/you're so bad at this
//i mean, life, in general


So a person who is interviewing for one job opening along with 100 other applicants has equal bargaining power as the interview? Uh no

Or do you think a star quarterback has equal bargaining power as the interviewer?

Supply demand how does that work?

Failure is you
 
2013-07-31 12:27:55 AM
How much more would a Big Mac cost if a Big Mac did cost more?

www.annerobertson.com
 
2013-07-31 12:29:18 AM

tzzhc4: People who say we shouldn't do this have never been poor. It sucks and paying a buck more for a burger is not a big deal if it helps someone feed themselves or their kids.


Meh. Go read what happened in San Fran when they got rid of the dollar menu

How much do you tip people at McDonald's? A dollar per item? What do you do if it isn't such a big deal?
 
2013-07-31 12:30:13 AM

Whiskey Dickens: This just in: people who simply hand you things don't add much value


But ~you~ don't get to determine what that value is.

Aggregates form supply and demand curves, an equilibrium price is found where those two curves intersect -- the whole idea behind the Invisible Hand.  Most importantly, there is an underlying, rigid structure that must be obeyed in order for said equilibrium price to be economically efficient -- that is to say, that it meets the fundamental requirement that the marginal price of the good/service in question equal the marginal cost to society of consuming said good in question.  That underlying, rigid structure is predicated on 1) there being no externalities to the transaction(s) and 2) that all market participants are price takers [no single participant can have any market power].

The market for labor in the fast food industry is decidedly *not* one where all market participants are price takers: sellers of labor are at a significant disadvantage to buyers of labor.

The current equilibrium price of wages are a product of market failure, not of the Invisible Hand.  That's an incorrect result, by economic definition.
 
2013-07-31 12:30:58 AM
Teachers should also be payed like Major League Baseball players.
 
2013-07-31 12:31:33 AM
Assuming we lived in some fantasy world where doubling the amount the employees make has no other effect on society I suppose.

By the way this is part of the effort by unions to make up for their flagging membership by getting more money for themselves. An effort supported by liberals since they know that money will then be spent on Democrat campaigns.
 
2013-07-31 12:31:55 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: Am not RTFT but I wonder how many derpers are intentionally ignoring the fact that equal bargaining power is a prerequisite to an efficiently operating free market, and are resorting to every red herring in the book to avoid addressing said fact...

/doesn't mean that legislating 2x the wages is necessarily the solution
//buyers of labor (employers) and sellers of labor (employees) must be contracting wages/compensation on a level negotiating field
///does mean that equilibrium wages are artificially depressed due to the exorbitant leverage buyers of labor have over sellers of labor
//does mean that we aren't living in anything resembling an efficiently operating free market environment
/does mean that mcdonald's shareholders are the only ones winning this race to the bottom and that you dumbshiats should quit white knighting them

They must do it on a level negotiating field? Wtf does that mean?

You don't believe in the dynamics of supply and demand?

Are you an economics wizard?

Yes

No, because you'd know that unequal bargaining power is, by economic definition, a market failure.

/you're so bad at this
//i mean, life, in general

So a person who is interviewing for one job opening along with 100 other applicants has equal bargaining power as the interview? Uh no

Or do you think a star quarterback has equal bargaining power as the interviewer?

Supply demand how does that work?

Failure is you


can't tell if trolling or brain damaged
 
2013-07-31 12:33:37 AM

muck4doo: Teachers should also be payed like Major League Baseball players.


Forsooth!
 
2013-07-31 12:33:43 AM

gameshowhost: That underlying, rigid structure is predicated on 1) there being no externalities to the transaction



blog.lakesregionhome.com
And that's why we're f*cked!
 
2013-07-31 12:33:47 AM

gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: tenpoundsofcheese: gameshowhost: Am not RTFT but I wonder how many derpers are intentionally ignoring the fact that equal bargaining power is a prerequisite to an efficiently operating free market, and are resorting to every red herring in the book to avoid addressing said fact...

/doesn't mean that legislating 2x the wages is necessarily the solution
//buyers of labor (employers) and sellers of labor (employees) must be contracting wages/compensation on a level negotiating field
///does mean that equilibrium wages are artificially depressed due to the exorbitant leverage buyers of labor have over sellers of labor
//does mean that we aren't living in anything resembling an efficiently operating free market environment
/does mean that mcdonald's shareholders are the only ones winning this race to the bottom and that you dumbshiats should quit white knighting them

They must do it on a level negotiating field? Wtf does that mean?

You don't believe in the dynamics of supply and demand?

Are you an economics wizard?

Yes

No, because you'd know that unequal bargaining power is, by economic definition, a market failure.

/you're so bad at this
//i mean, life, in general

So a person who is interviewing for one job opening along with 100 other applicants has equal bargaining power as the interview? Uh no

Or do you think a star quarterback has equal bargaining power as the interviewer?

Supply demand how does that work?

Failure is you

can't tell if trolling or brain damaged


Then you are probably brain damaged.

At least you recognize it.
 
2013-07-31 12:34:27 AM

divx88: So ... some random student's research which more than likely has huge gaping holes of data is taken seriously?


His research is consistent with everything else ever written on the subject .That it's a student who did it maters not at all. It's research anyone could do. A person's position or title does not grant authority to research nor does lack of same take that authority away.

tenpoundsofcheese: You mean the company that admitted they used 15000 slaves and concentration camp people to build cars? I don't think they had good pensions back then.


They sure weren't using those people in 1950. And one of the most iconic of German car companies was created in the aftermath of the war in circumstances that were to say the least a challenge. I trust though that you've heard of Porsche.
 
2013-07-31 12:35:46 AM

bunner: gameshowhost: That underlying, rigid structure is predicated on 1) there being no externalities to the transaction



And that's why we're f*cked!


Right. No externalities like a minimum wage law.
 
2013-07-31 12:38:10 AM
Not against raising the pay to get better workers, but honestly, some of the employees there now are overpaid even at minimum wage.  Took like 8 minutes last time I was in there to get handed a freakin coffee and pie, and there were 6 people behind the counter and only me and one customer in the drive thru.  Come the fark on, the reason your place exists is FAST FOOD.

At least the pie was warm, which is more than I can say for the shiat diner establishments that think serving cold goop out of the fridge is somehow acceptable.
 
2013-07-31 12:38:27 AM

WhyteRaven74: divx88: So ... some random student's research which more than likely has huge gaping holes of data is taken seriously?

His research is consistent with everything else ever written on the subject .That it's a student who did it maters not at all. It's research anyone could do. A person's position or title does not grant authority to research nor does lack of same take that authority away.

tenpoundsofcheese: You mean the company that admitted they used 15000 slaves and concentration camp people to build cars? I don't think they had good pensions back then.

They sure weren't using those people in 1950. And one of the most iconic of German car companies was created in the aftermath of the war in circumstances that were to say the least a challenge. I trust though that you've heard of Porsche.


If the slaves were used to also build the factories and prove in the manufacturing process they were certainly still benefiting from their non pension low wage work by 1950.
 
2013-07-31 12:39:15 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Supply demand how does that work?


You do realize that supply and demand is not some magical framework designed by Adam Smith, but is simply a result of human behavior, right?

That is to say, supply and demand applies in any economic system, from laissez-faire to pure communism.  Just because there's a dot where the two curves intersect doesn't mean it's the correct dot that meets the fundamental requirement of efficient economic transactions, such that price = cost to society.

Okay. There's your lesson for today. *pats you on your propeller beanie* Run along now.
 
2013-07-31 12:40:47 AM
this doesnt take into account the idle time when the store has no business, yet the employees must be paid.
 
2013-07-31 12:41:14 AM

WhyteRaven74: I trust though that you've heard of Porsche.


The vast majority of people can't afford one.
 
2013-07-31 12:42:29 AM
Economies - are - wealth redistribution.  From whom, to whom and by what means is why there's a college course you can take that lets you condescend to people like you just had lunch with God.
 
2013-07-31 12:42:40 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: So a person who is interviewing for one job opening along with 100 other applicants has equal bargaining power as the interview? Uh no


The person does if they have another 100 interviews for similar prospective jobs.

If you are suggesting a scenario where there is a constant 100 unemployed people for every 1 job, then you've got a much bigger problem.
 
2013-07-31 12:44:06 AM

randomjsa: Assuming we lived in some fantasy world where doubling the amount the employees make has no other effect on society I suppose.


Well increasing pay does have the effect of increasing economic growth. I guess we don't want that now do we?

tenpoundsofcheese: Citation?


Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet, James Sinegal and the list goes on and on.
 
2013-07-31 12:45:53 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Engineering firms, like all others, pay for your output. They don't pay based on what it cost you to get your skills or based on what a burger flipper gets.


Exactly, and to get the highest output they'll need the most talented employees.  In order to motivate people to pay for the education and training to become the most talented engineers, they'll need to offer pay substantially greater than what one could get straight out of high school.
 
2013-07-31 12:46:05 AM

muck4doo: The vast majority of people can't afford one.


Funny enough if income growth over the last 33 years had been like income growth over the 33 years before that the number of people who could afford a Porsche would be a lot greater. Likewise the number of people who could afford a Corvette would be a lot greater. This would likely benefit Chevrolet's bottom line.
 
2013-07-31 12:46:21 AM

muck4doo: WhyteRaven74: I trust though that you've heard of Porsche.

The vast majority of people can't afford one.


Yeah they started out with tanks and then used parts from Volkswagen. The company that used slave labor and concentration camp people to get started.

They produce about 100k cars a year. So they are a niche player.
 
2013-07-31 12:48:04 AM

sixfingers: this doesnt take into account the idle time when the store has no business, yet the employees must be paid.


*facepalm*
 
2013-07-31 12:49:15 AM

randomjsa: Assuming we lived in some fantasy world where doubling the amount the employees make has no other effect on society I suppose.

By the way this is part of the effort by unions to make up for their flagging membership by getting more money for themselves. An effort supported by liberals since they know that money will then be spent on Democrat campaigns.


Unions act in the interest of the union members.  If the members become dissatisfied with how the union management is running it, they can vote them out.  Sure, there are some corrupt unions just like there are some corrupt corporations, but by and large unions exist to fight for the little guy and level the playing field between management and labor.

They tend to support the Democrats more because the Democrats are the party of the working and middle class.  Why would they want to aid the GOP whose goal is to help the fat cats get even fatter at the expense of everyone else?
 
2013-07-31 12:49:48 AM

WhyteRaven74: randomjsa: Assuming we lived in some fantasy world where doubling the amount the employees make has no other effect on society I suppose.

Well increasing pay does have the effect of increasing economic growth. I guess we don't want that now do we?

tenpoundsofcheese: Citation?

Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet, James Sinegal and the list goes on and on.


You think 25b is not a huge Payday for bezos?
 
2013-07-31 12:50:56 AM

bunner: Economies - are - wealth redistribution.  From whom, to whom and by what means is why there's a college course you can take that lets you condescend to people like you just had lunch with God.


People that have only taken one course tend to be the ones with the most comical misunderstanding.  Like Reason.com followers.

/am being generous when i assume that reason.com followers have any post-secondary education
 
2013-07-31 12:52:48 AM
The real question here is "What is a human worth apart from what they can presently contribute?"
cdn.pocket-lint.com
This bad boy, or its descendents are the future of fast food. The death knell for the McJob is tolling. So this whole argument is really moot.
The military is automating too, if burger flipping and gruntwork are out what then? That is the question! Answering the phones goes overseas or hell, automation is hitting there (call the Microsoft activation line: you never talk to a real person) too. What do you do with the grunts when all the grunt work is gone?

Here's a thought: Maybe the grunts aren't useless inherently (I have a hard time with the idea of someone being inherently worthless) education could be the problem, education isn't designed to foster creative thought and educating children in things that require a developed prefrontal cortex doesn't work. Could the answer just be educating adults to tutor children, that might take a couple generations to make significant change, but something must happen because the changes are coming and they will come quickly and they will not be something that can be ignored. Of course doing nothing will lead to legions of desperate people with no prospects. Desperate people do desperate things and none of us want that, except those who want to watch the world burn.
 
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