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(Hartford Courant)   Parents want over $600,000 because summer camp director stopped their low self-esteem daughter from having underage summer camp sex   (courant.com) divider line 247
    More: Stupid, CHLOE MILLER, self-esteem, Sue Lein, executive directors, Westport, underage, emotional well-being  
•       •       •

23156 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Jul 2013 at 10:50 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-29 11:43:07 PM
According to the girl's lawyer, Rosemarie Arnold of Fort Lee, N.J., kissing is not against the rules at the camp.

and then

The code of conduct also prohibits "sexual relations or physical contact with another person (opposite or same sex)."

So... are news items not allowed to simply state that an interviewed person's statements are flat-out untrue?  This doesn't seem like some sort of grey area where the lawyer kind of has a point, he's just straight-up quantitatively lying.

//Though, if you kick someone out of your camp, a partial refund is appropriate.  Well, unless the contract specifically says something to the contrary... which it might, in which case the parents have no real argument here.

//Albeit, iirc, revealing personal medical records in the US without permission is a  criminal issue, so that part might be a big deal where the story's set as well.
 
2013-07-29 11:43:40 PM

doglover: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: her story as you frame it would not result in positive notoriety.

Says you.


I've dealt with 10,000s of people of all ages in my life. Yay social jobs! You could totally re-frame it and make it a positive thing. I've heard many similar stories of what seemed bad at the time but actually taught you to be a better person.

Hell, look at rock stars. Everyone loves the ones who break the rules, while we don't really care for the ones who play everything safe and by the book.

Who is Ozzy Osborne? I bet you know. But have you ever heard of Chester Bennington by name?


I shop at his coat factory all the time.
 
2013-07-29 11:44:29 PM

doglover: But have you ever heard of Chester Bennington by name?


I have but I listened to Linkin Park as a teenager.
 
2013-07-29 11:44:38 PM

digitalrain: Was the boy who participated in the kiss / make-out sesh / damn-near-sexy-time kicked out as
well? If he got off scott free (no pun intended ... ok, maybe a little bit intended) and the girl got
singled out for punishment and humiliation, I can see the parents getting their noses out of
joint.


Boys will be boys. He can't be blamed for her witchery.
 
2013-07-29 11:45:21 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Emotionally challenged teens aren't usually inventive enough to come up with such a cunning plan


Which is why mommy and daddy here should be facing child abuse charges for spending $12,000 for summer camps instead of therapy.

I still want to know how in god's green earth what $6,000 in summer camp fees gets your kids. Obviously it's overnight and co-ed. What else?
 
2013-07-29 11:45:23 PM
I've been to band camp, space camp, bible camp, and beyond. There is one goal. Get to at least second or third base. If you get lucky and hit a home run, you are a legend. That is all.
 
2013-07-29 11:46:47 PM

Harry_Seldon: digitalrain: Was the boy who participated in the kiss / make-out sesh / damn-near-sexy-time kicked out as
well? If he got off scott free (no pun intended ... ok, maybe a little bit intended) and the girl got
singled out for punishment and humiliation, I can see the parents getting their noses out of
joint.

Boys will be boys. He can't be blamed for her witchery.


Phbbbbbt
 
2013-07-29 11:47:26 PM

skinnycatullus: The lawsuit seeks a refund of camp tuition for both girls (over $12,000)...

Rich people problems.

 
2013-07-29 11:47:55 PM
Just posting to say i love all of the sleep away camp movies and force as many people as i can to watch them

/has the box set
 
2013-07-29 11:49:22 PM

digitalrain: the girl got
singled out for punishment and humiliation, I can see the parents getting their noses out of
join


The head counselor chewed her out in front of the entire camp, and she did it by insulting her with privileged, private medical information.

It'd be like if an adult were fired from their job, and HR started screaming about how they can't get their dick up because of their Viagra prescription and vasectomy.
 
2013-07-29 11:49:59 PM

Jabberwookiee: I've been to band camp, space camp, bible camp, and beyond. There is one goal. Get to at least second or third base. If you get lucky and hit a home run, you are a legend. That is all.


I've never been to space camp or band camp. I went to a quasi-bible camp for 3 summers and
a computer camp for 3 summers. I *wish* I'd found some guy to make out with on the sly. Nobody
wants to make out with the tall, gangly, socially awkward tomboy though. Sigh...

Even at computer camp, when I was the ONLY girl in my friggin' unit...still no joy. Sigh...

Still, had some great times at Summit Lake Camp and Camp Horizons.
 
2013-07-29 11:50:58 PM

Harry_Seldon: gonzoduke: Your snowflake is a slut

I believe she is technically a "skank."

//Are we gonna get sued?


When I was 12-13 years old, this stuff was considered normal for growing kids and nobody gave a shait.
In all reality, in a sane society, it would be called "being a teenager".  In this day and age, who the fark knows.
 
2013-07-29 11:51:43 PM
you know what happens at summer camp could wind up haunting you for 18.75 years

hi mom
 
2013-07-29 11:52:02 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: digitalrain: the girl got
singled out for punishment and humiliation, I can see the parents getting their noses out of
join

The head counselor chewed her out in front of the entire camp, and she did it by insulting her with privileged, private medical information.

It'd be like if an adult were fired from their job, and HR started screaming about how they can't get their dick up because of their Viagra prescription and vasectomy.


Don't misunderstand me. I think the camp was totally in the wrong regardless. Divulging private HIPAA protected
medical information?? Hoo-boy that's a no-no right there.
 
2013-07-29 11:53:52 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: The head counselor chewed her out in front of the entire camp, and she did it by insulting her with privileged, private medical information.


Wait, whut?
 
2013-07-29 11:54:35 PM
So, granted it doesn't really apply here, but sometimes you actually (as a counselor) need to share medical info with your wards. I had to take care of an autistic kid along with my other 12-13yo's and they HAD to know why little Jeremy was so different and difficult. What I'm saying is there isn't a hard line at share nothing of medical stuff, discretion is required.
 
2013-07-29 11:55:33 PM

doglover: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: The head counselor chewed her out in front of the entire camp, and she did it by insulting her with privileged, private medical information.

Wait, whut?


"
According to the suit, Lein allegedly "screamed and yelled" at the girl in front of other campers and accused her of being "loose" and a "danger" to the camp.

Arnold also said Lein shared confidential information about the girl, telling other campers she suffers from anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, and low self-esteem.
 "
 
2013-07-29 11:56:10 PM

ferretman: She was kissing his PENIS!!!!



It's his fault for having one.
 
2013-07-29 11:57:04 PM

digitalrain: Jabberwookiee: I've been to band camp, space camp, bible camp, and beyond. There is one goal. Get to at least second or third base. If you get lucky and hit a home run, you are a legend. That is all.

I've never been to space camp or band camp. I went to a quasi-bible camp for 3 summers and
a computer camp for 3 summers. I *wish* I'd found some guy to make out with on the sly. Nobody
wants to make out with the tall, gangly, socially awkward tomboy though. Sigh...

Even at computer camp, when I was the ONLY girl in my friggin' unit...still no joy. Sigh...

Still, had some great times at Summit Lake Camp and Camp Horizons.


Oh, I forgot about computer camp. Anyway, I wasn't very successful either. But it was still the goal. Hormones and what not...

Had fun, though.
 
2013-07-29 11:57:12 PM
Stay tuned for the newest episode of "Teen Mom".
 
2013-07-29 11:57:34 PM
 
2013-07-29 11:57:58 PM

A Terrible Human: That much money for a summer camp? http://fw.ky.gov/navigation.aspx?cid=301&NavPath=C117C147 I went to that one 2 years in a row. $230 that my mom saved and scrimped for,she's amazing and I had so much damned fun.


I went to camp there! I got the Outdoorsman Award because I used to be an outdoorsy badass type. Now I'm in indoorsy allergic to everything that has pollen type.
 
2013-07-29 11:58:42 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: doglover: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: The head counselor chewed her out in front of the entire camp, and she did it by insulting her with privileged, private medical information.

Wait, whut?

"
According to the suit, Lein allegedly "screamed and yelled" at the girl in front of other campers and accused her of being "loose" and a "danger" to the camp.



Well, she was right about that part.
 
2013-07-29 11:59:40 PM

Jim_Callahan: According to the girl's lawyer, Rosemarie Arnold of Fort Lee, N.J., kissing is not against the rules at the camp.

and then

The code of conduct also prohibits "sexual relations or physical contact with another person (opposite or same sex)."

So... are news items not allowed to simply state that an interviewed person's statements are flat-out untrue?  This doesn't seem like some sort of grey area where the lawyer kind of has a point, he's just straight-up quantitatively lying.


The news article is poorly written (as most are) so its not clear there is the contradiction you see in it. I doubt sincerely that the camp could function if it banned all physical contact between campers which is what physical contact with another person (opposite or same sex) literally says. The way I read that provision is a ban on both sexual relations and sexual contact.  It's also possible that the contract is simply vague, which would be counted against the camp because either they or their lawyers drafted it.
 
2013-07-30 12:01:46 AM
Silly camper. 15-year-old campers must obey the rules and be good little boys and girls.

16-year-old staff members, on the other hand, are free to fark each other every waking moment. Behind the mess hall. In the maintenance shed. In the walk-in freezer. Out in the woods. In the pool. Anywhere and everywhere. And they will. Oh, it's true--some of them are not terribly attractive, or suave, and some of them smell funny and haven't even managed to hold hands with a girl or boy their own age when they're away from camp. But the raw potential of dozens of teenagers working together and sleeping side by side, with virtually no adult supervision and a thousand exotic places to experiment in, means that even the least attractive of them will fumble his way to some regular third-base action.

Holy living fark, thank god for working at camp.

/to this day, I still get an erection from the sight of those diamond-shaped knickknacks you make with popsicle sticks and yarn
 
2013-07-30 12:02:10 AM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Divulging psychiatric / medical info gets your ass ultrasued in the US, doesn't it?

/I ask cos it's not like you have a lot of laws protecting people's rights to privacy down there


Honestly, at this point I need independent verification of the screaming and divulging of personal information (say, from other councilors or campers) before I'll believe the accusation.  Let's look at the credibility of the charges so far:

"According to the girl's lawyer, Rosemarie Arnold of Fort Lee, N.J., kissing is not against the rules at the camp."

"The camp's code of conduct states that, 'depending on the severity of the act, a camper can be sent home for the first strike.'  The code of conduct also prohibits 'sexual relations or physical contact with another person (opposite or same sex).'"

"Kissing isn't against the rules!!!"  ...except that it is, precious.  Unless this is some form of kissing that involves never actually making physical contact with your partner.

"Arnold said her client, who had attended the camp for four years, maintains that the incident did not warrant immediate expulsion."

"Lein, according to the suit, said the boy and girl had begun to undress and were 'making out.'"

...yeah, I'm sorry, I'm siding with the camp here.  If the kids are getting into it to the point that they're starting to take off clothing, send their asses home.

Oh, and then there's the fact that the mother is suing for (among other things) "negligent supervision," even though  they farking well caught the kids before they could finish taking each other's clothes off.

Yeah.  Definitely leery of the "they yelled at my precious snowflake in front of all the other kids and told them her personal problems!" charge here.  I'll need to hear it from more than a single source that seems to think kissing doesn't count as physical contact or that horny barely-teens actively trying to get each other naked isn't grounds to kick said teens out of camp.
 
2013-07-30 12:02:28 AM

Iggie: [upload.wikimedia.org image 220x294]


about time!
 
2013-07-30 12:03:22 AM
25.media.tumblr.com

What girls with low self-esteem might look like.
 
2013-07-30 12:04:30 AM

pgh9fan: Boy was kicked out as well
http://thenewsfortoday.net/teen-girl-booted-from-summer-camp-by-arme d- guard-for-kissing-boy-suit/


Well, they both broke the camp's rules. So, apparently, the camp may be uptight, shrill, and controlling, but they're equal opportunity assholes.
 
2013-07-30 12:05:42 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: So, granted it doesn't really apply here, but sometimes you actually (as a counselor) need to share medical info with your wards. I had to take care of an autistic kid along with my other 12-13yo's and they HAD to know why little Jeremy was so different and difficult. What I'm saying is there isn't a hard line at share nothing of medical stuff, discretion is required.


That's a different situation entirely and probably one where little Jeremy's parents would be told  ahead
of time "Look...we need to let the other campers know about Jeremy's autism so that they understand
what his mannerisms are stemming from and will hopefully be more tolerant..."

TFA made it sound like the sandy-vagged counselor caught the young lovers sucking face and dragged
the poor girl out by her ear, stood her in front of the other campers and berated her for her behavior.

Look-ee here, campers. Little Miss Hot Pants here was messing around behind the arts and crafts hut
with Jimmy. She has (air quotes) "self esteem issues" and doesn't feel good about herself so she let
him jam his tongue down her throat. The little JEZEBEL!

Adults shouldn't free the fark out over perfectly NORMAL emerging sexual urges in teenagers. Kids
should be taught that it is perfectly normal. They should be taught that some age appropriate level
of experimenting is  OK but a) both parties must be consenting, b) if one party puts on the brakes,
that's it. No coercion,and c) it isn't cool to fark with someone and lead them on only to drop them cold
(though item b stillapplies regardless).
 
2013-07-30 12:06:05 AM
I wonder if their daughter had not been caught and did have sex, which wound her up getting pregnant, would have these same parents sued the camp for not watching their daughter close enough?
 
2013-07-30 12:06:31 AM

cretinbob: Was she hot?


What could be hotter than low self-esteem?
 
2013-07-30 12:07:28 AM

Omahawg: are you ready for the summer?
[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x337]


Ah, the 70s.  When a girl could go from hardcore porn to a kids' movie and nobody batted an eye.
 
2013-07-30 12:09:29 AM

Lachwen: Yeah.  Definitely leery of the "they yelled at my precious snowflake in front of all the other kids and told them her personal problems!" charge here.


You're leery about the charge that completely defines the lawsuit and why it was brought in the first place?

Welcome to the jury, Ms. Lachwen.
 
2013-07-30 12:11:29 AM
Meanwhile - low self esteem guys have to wait till they have graduated college and are making bank before they can get laid. Who can they sue?
 
2013-07-30 12:15:40 AM

pgh9fan: Boy was kicked out as well
http://thenewsfortoday.net/teen-girl-booted-from-summer-camp-by-arme d- guard-for-kissing-boy-suit/


FTA :   "She quickly developed feelings for" the teen, fictitiously named "Dick," the suit says.

Someone's having some fun with this.
 
2013-07-30 12:17:06 AM

digitalrain: That's a different situation entirely and probably one where little Jeremy's parents would be told  ahead
of time "Look...we need to let the other campers know about Jeremy's autism so that they understand
what his mannerisms are stemming from and will hopefully be more tolerant..."


Actually little Jeremy's mom was a real piece of work. She ditched him at the staging point in Fountain Valley (for a Big Bear camp) with nothing beyond this is Jeremy and ran away. I didn't find out till two days later why this kid was so farked up. He required (literally) 24/7 care. and because of that I couldn't really do anything for my other 12 campers. for the first two days all I knew was this kid is messed up and I can't take my eyes off of him for a minute.
He wet the bed every night, he had severe difficulty communicating. mentally I'd put him at 6 or 7 (if that). the mom totally ditched him and ran as far and fast as she could. (And on the one hand, I can't blame her for wanting a week free of him).

The end result was he required my attention all day and night every day and I couldn't do anything for my other campers =(. Though I did get myself into the middle of a fist fight to break it up (a lot of these kids were troubled).

There were so many things wrong with that camp... the YMCA ran it, I was originally supposed to be a junior counselor, (as I was 17) but the night prior to our departure they had me white out my age and DOB on the forms to make me 18. I had 13 kids to take care of (instead of the legal max of 12 to 1) and I didn't get critical medical info for days. Including, allergies, autism and a badly ADD kid. It was a horrible cluster fark. =(
 
2013-07-30 12:19:54 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: digitalrain: That's a different situation entirely and probably one where little Jeremy's parents would be told  ahead
of time "Look...we need to let the other campers know about Jeremy's autism so that they understand
what his mannerisms are stemming from and will hopefully be more tolerant..."

Actually little Jeremy's mom was a real piece of work. She ditched him at the staging point in Fountain Valley (for a Big Bear camp) with nothing beyond this is Jeremy and ran away. I didn't find out till two days later why this kid was so farked up. He required (literally) 24/7 care. and because of that I couldn't really do anything for my other 12 campers. for the first two days all I knew was this kid is messed up and I can't take my eyes off of him for a minute.
He wet the bed every night, he had severe difficulty communicating. mentally I'd put him at 6 or 7 (if that). the mom totally ditched him and ran as far and fast as she could. (And on the one hand, I can't blame her for wanting a week free of him).

The end result was he required my attention all day and night every day and I couldn't do anything for my other campers =(. Though I did get myself into the middle of a fist fight to break it up (a lot of these kids were troubled).

There were so many things wrong with that camp... the YMCA ran it, I was originally supposed to be a junior counselor, (as I was 17) but the night prior to our departure they had me white out my age and DOB on the forms to make me 18. I had 13 kids to take care of (instead of the legal max of 12 to 1) and I didn't get critical medical info for days. Including, allergies, autism and a badly ADD kid. It was a horrible cluster fark. =(


Holy shiate, man. I don't envy you that. I have one son who is bipolar / ADHD and the other is high functioning
autistic / Asperger's. There are days I just want to curl up with a wine bottle and that's with just TWO of 'em. I
can't imagine being responsible for 13 troubled and / or special needs kids at the age of 17.
 
2013-07-30 12:20:03 AM

doglover: The lawsuit seeks a refund of camp tuition for both girls (over $12,000)

$6,000 for a summer camp? That's about six times more than you'd think it would cost for a week. Do they have caviar Wednesdays or hire active military units to fly in and pay for the Jet A.


No, they pay for security to keep their snowflakes virgins.  Camp Comandant knows what keeps her salary.  Otherwise, she's back as bandcamp supervisor.
 
2013-07-30 12:20:18 AM

digitalrain: Uchiha_Cycliste: So, granted it doesn't really apply here, but sometimes you actually (as a counselor) need to share medical info with your wards. I had to take care of an autistic kid along with my other 12-13yo's and they HAD to know why little Jeremy was so different and difficult. What I'm saying is there isn't a hard line at share nothing of medical stuff, discretion is required.

That's a different situation entirely and probably one where little Jeremy's parents would be told  ahead
of time "Look...we need to let the other campers know about Jeremy's autism so that they understand
what his mannerisms are stemming from and will hopefully be more tolerant..."

TFA made it sound like the sandy-vagged counselor caught the young lovers sucking face and dragged
the poor girl out by her ear, stood her in front of the other campers and berated her for her behavior.

Look-ee here, campers. Little Miss Hot Pants here was messing around behind the arts and crafts hut
with Jimmy. She has (air quotes) "self esteem issues" and doesn't feel good about herself so she let
him jam his tongue down her throat. The little JEZEBEL!

Adults shouldn't free the fark out over perfectly NORMAL emerging sexual urges in teenagers. Kids
should be taught that it is perfectly normal. They should be taught that some age appropriate level
of experimenting is  OK but a) both parties must be consenting, b) if one party puts on the brakes,
that's it. No coercion,and c) it isn't cool to fark with someone and lead them on only to drop them cold
(though item b stillapplies regardless).


BTW I pretty much agree with all you said. I just wanted to point out, never sharing medical info ever is not reasonable or responsible.
 
2013-07-30 12:21:22 AM
img163.imageshack.us
 
2013-07-30 12:23:38 AM
Meanwhile, the lawyer behind the lawsuit is an attention whore.

i1.ytimg.com

Well, at least she's not afraid of TV. Look up Rosemarie Arnold, she's done the rounds, ABC, CNN, Fox News.

Look at it from the camp director's side. Girl wanders off with boy, hanky panky or rapey wapey, ruined reputation and you can't charge $6k a head for summer camp next year. While kissing is allowed, wandering off to unsupervised areas was not. Now, publicly humiliating and expulsion was a bit much, but taking the teens aside for individual... dammit, every term I think of gets naughty. Well, take the teens aside and yell at them about the paranoid dangers envisioned by the directors and counselors, and tell the boy that he could become an accused rapist even if it was consensual.
 
2013-07-30 12:25:12 AM

cowgirl toffee: [img163.imageshack.us image 512x512]


farm6.staticflickr.com
 
2013-07-30 12:26:05 AM

digitalrain: Uchiha_Cycliste: digitalrain: That's a different situation entirely and probably one where little Jeremy's parents would be told  ahead
of time "Look...we need to let the other campers know about Jeremy's autism so that they understand
what his mannerisms are stemming from and will hopefully be more tolerant..."

Actually little Jeremy's mom was a real piece of work. She ditched him at the staging point in Fountain Valley (for a Big Bear camp) with nothing beyond this is Jeremy and ran away. I didn't find out till two days later why this kid was so farked up. He required (literally) 24/7 care. and because of that I couldn't really do anything for my other 12 campers. for the first two days all I knew was this kid is messed up and I can't take my eyes off of him for a minute.
He wet the bed every night, he had severe difficulty communicating. mentally I'd put him at 6 or 7 (if that). the mom totally ditched him and ran as far and fast as she could. (And on the one hand, I can't blame her for wanting a week free of him).

The end result was he required my attention all day and night every day and I couldn't do anything for my other campers =(. Though I did get myself into the middle of a fist fight to break it up (a lot of these kids were troubled).

There were so many things wrong with that camp... the YMCA ran it, I was originally supposed to be a junior counselor, (as I was 17) but the night prior to our departure they had me white out my age and DOB on the forms to make me 18. I had 13 kids to take care of (instead of the legal max of 12 to 1) and I didn't get critical medical info for days. Including, allergies, autism and a badly ADD kid. It was a horrible cluster fark. =(

Holy shiate, man. I don't envy you that. I have one son who is bipolar / ADHD and the other is high functioning
autistic / Asperger's. There are days I just want to curl up with a wine bottle and that's with just TWO of 'em. I
can't imagine being responsible for 13 troubled and / or special n ...


Now that I think of it, I think that was the last time I ever volunteered for anything. Which is sad, I used to volunteer all over the place through all sorts of organizations. But then there was this camp, and after a week of taking care of a dozen troubled kids and a 5'7'' 150 lb five year old my helpful spirit was broken.
I wanted to pursue some action after the Y, but my parents advised I back down, because I had little proof, and I HAD gone in and lied about my age after being told I had to. At the time I hadn't understood how that could reflect poorly on me, as I was on;y following orders. As I've grown I've learned that that is not a sufficient excuse.
 
2013-07-30 12:27:39 AM

wildcardjack: rapey wapey


Not sure if you said rape twice...
 
2013-07-30 12:28:38 AM

jtown: cowgirl toffee: [img163.imageshack.us image 512x512]

[farm6.staticflickr.com image 500x268]


:P
 
2013-07-30 12:30:33 AM
When did breaking the rules become something we sue over?

I would actually like to see other campers that said that the woman went all HIPPA violation on her ass. So far it is their side against the camp that is rightly so keeping their mouths shut.

She and a boy dodged out of the area and started to undress while making out. If I had been kicked out of camp for this my dad would have been angry if the camp didn't belittle me and tell me what a rule breaker I was. Anyone ever heard of an example being made, it could be the camp just told everyone why she was getting kicked out to make sure the kids knew better next time the occasion arose.

She broke the rules. She got caught. She got kicked out. Parents sue. We wonder why the Millennials are for the most part entitled, now you know.
 
2013-07-30 12:32:06 AM
To be fair, when you have OCD, three strike rules are a problem.  Once you get that first strike it's only a matter of time before you get the other two, just to complete the set, so she was doomed anyway.
 
2013-07-30 12:34:23 AM
It's not $6000 a week you idiots.

2 weeks $3250
4 weeks $6450
6 weeks $9250
 
2013-07-30 12:36:25 AM
There's a certain strata of society that abhors the thought of spending any time with their own children. They shuffle them off to boarding school and then spend tens of thousands more to dump them in the right camp for the summer.

There was a completely nonironic article in Town and Country magazine rating summer camps by how accessible they were to airports that could land private jets so hedge fund managers wouldn't have to spend hours with their kids driving up from NYC. I'm sure the $600,000 is completely justified to them for having to put up with not one but 2 kids for the summer.
 
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