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(Social Reader)   "If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?" - Pope Francis the Fierce   (socialreader.com) divider line 160
    More: Cool, good wills, Catholic Social  
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3714 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Jul 2013 at 11:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-29 09:58:23 AM  
I'm not Catholic, but I like this guy.  I think he's about as radical as a Pope could be and still get elected.  They said a Jesuit Pope would be something entirely different, and they weren't just whistling Dixie.
 
2013-07-29 09:58:37 AM  
First Archbishop Tutu and now the Pope?

Well then.
 
2013-07-29 09:59:47 AM  

nekom: I think he's about as radical as a Pope could be and still get elected.


Yeah, he needs to watch those bombs and snipers, this guy has got to be marked.
 
2013-07-29 10:03:48 AM  
who am I to judge?

He added, "what am I, the Pope?"
 
2013-07-29 10:04:41 AM  

nekom: They said a Jesuit Pope would be something entirely different, and they weren't just whistling Dixie.


Yep. And I like this guy, too.

/recovering Catholic
 
2013-07-29 10:09:05 AM  
No wonder this guy is the "last of the Popes".  He doesn't even know how to hate.  The whole institution is going to come crumbling down at this rate.
 
2013-07-29 10:10:00 AM  
Looks like I woke up in Bizarro World this morning. I could get used to it.
 
2013-07-29 10:11:32 AM  

I_C_Weener: He doesn't even know how to hate.


If you take out the supernatural stuff, the message of Jesus is surprisingly socialist and progressive.  Don't let the Christian right know this, but Jesus himself never said anything about homosexuality.  He said plenty on love, tolerance and helping each other.  I consider the J man to be one of the world's great philosophers, and this Pope seems to "get it".
 
2013-07-29 10:11:54 AM  
What's next, a stand against child molestation?
 
2013-07-29 10:17:38 AM  
I'm not trying to be "that guy," but hasn't he in the past said something along the lines of gay couples adopting children is a form of child abuse or something of the like? I seem to remember some form of gay bashing. Might this just be recovery P.R.?
 
2013-07-29 10:19:45 AM  

I_C_Weener: No wonder this guy is the "last of the Popes".  He doesn't even know how to hate.  The whole institution is going to come crumbling down at this rate.


It's funny - half the reaction is "Yeah, that's pretty much what Catholics have always said" and the other half is "GRAAAAAR POPE PROGRESSIVE THE LIBBYFIFTH IS UNDOING GAWD'S HOLY WORD! BRIMSTONE! FIRE! SKYDEATHRAIN!"

The pope hasn't really broken new ground (after all, gay sex is still "morally wrong" in the Church's eyes), he's just framing the message for all audiences rather than just Catholics, but it's fun to see the same debate over inclusion vs exclusion raging ever on.
 
2013-07-29 10:22:29 AM  

AnotherBluesStringer: I'm not trying to be "that guy," but hasn't he in the past said something along the lines of gay couples adopting children is a form of child abuse or something of the like? I seem to remember some form of gay bashing. Might this just be recovery P.R.?


He's only been the Pope a couple of months. When are you thinking of?
 
2013-07-29 10:26:47 AM  
I still think this Pope is going to turn up slumped over his tea cup one morning, if he keeps pushing this 'reformist' agenda.
I hope I'm wrong.
 
2013-07-29 10:32:49 AM  

Confabulat: He's only been the Pope a couple of months. When are you thinking of?


I believe he made that comment while Archbishop of Buenos Aires.
 
2013-07-29 10:33:06 AM  
 I just decided to baptize my one year old - the new Holy Father gives me hope that there might be good in the Catholic church.  I left when the nazi tried to return to the dark ages. I like the new guy. He seems to believe in the church instead of power, with the church being the people, not the institution
 
2013-07-29 10:33:09 AM  

Confabulat: AnotherBluesStringer: I'm not trying to be "that guy," but hasn't he in the past said something along the lines of gay couples adopting children is a form of child abuse or something of the like? I seem to remember some form of gay bashing. Might this just be recovery P.R.?

He's only been the Pope a couple of months. When are you thinking of?


I did some light Googling and found this:
http://www.businessinsider.com/pope-francis-comments-on-gay-marriage -a nd-gay-adoption-2013-3
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-a nt i_n_2869221.html
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_wor st _quotes/

These are just a few of the first links that popped up. Don't get me wrong, this guy seems great by most accounts. And, hey, there is always the chance he changed his opinion. I hope he really is in tune with the whole "who am I to judge" instead of the "gay adoption is discrimination against children."  I just think something here smells like a PR move.
 
2013-07-29 10:35:37 AM  

Confabulat: AnotherBluesStringer: I'm not trying to be "that guy," but hasn't he in the past said something along the lines of gay couples adopting children is a form of child abuse or something of the like? I seem to remember some form of gay bashing. Might this just be recovery P.R.?

He's only been the Pope a couple of months. When are you thinking of?


When he was a Cardinal in Argentina. He was pretty anti-gay as a Cardinal. I'm hoping at the very least this means there won't be direct opposition to marriage equality from the Church anymore. He and the church don't need to support it, but he shouldn't be directly opposing it anymore either.
 
2013-07-29 10:36:23 AM  

Confabulat: AnotherBluesStringer: I'm not trying to be "that guy," but hasn't he in the past said something along the lines of gay couples adopting children is a form of child abuse or something of the like? I seem to remember some form of gay bashing. Might this just be recovery P.R.?

He's only been the Pope a couple of months. When are you thinking of?


In 2010, talking about a proposal to allow gay marriage:

In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family...At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God's law engraved in our hearts.Let's not be naive: This is not a simple political fight; it is a destructive proposal to God's plan. This is not a mere legislative proposal (that's just its form), but a move by the father of lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God... Let's look to St. Joseph, Mary, and the Child to ask fervently that they defend the Argentine family in this moment... May they support, defend, and accompany us in this war of God.

For all that he's talking about treating homosexuals with some decency, the official Catholic position is still that they're "intrinsically morally disordered", and yet Bernard Law is still quite happily living in the Vatican
 
2013-07-29 10:37:28 AM  

scottydoesntknow: Confabulat: AnotherBluesStringer: I'm not trying to be "that guy," but hasn't he in the past said something along the lines of gay couples adopting children is a form of child abuse or something of the like? I seem to remember some form of gay bashing. Might this just be recovery P.R.?

He's only been the Pope a couple of months. When are you thinking of?

When he was a Cardinal in Argentina. He was pretty anti-gay as a Cardinal. I'm hoping at the very least this means there won't be direct opposition to marriage equality from the Church anymore. He and the church don't need to support it, but he shouldn't be directly opposing it anymore either.


In all fairness, just because the church doesn't oppose it, doesn't mean the religious right won't.
 
2013-07-29 10:38:22 AM  
Well I'm not surprised about the anti-gay remarks but that's always been the status quo for Roman Catholicism. What is surprising is NOT saying something like that.

Has he said anything about condoms yet?
 
2013-07-29 10:38:50 AM  

AnotherBluesStringer: scottydoesntknow: Confabulat: AnotherBluesStringer: I'm not trying to be "that guy," but hasn't he in the past said something along the lines of gay couples adopting children is a form of child abuse or something of the like? I seem to remember some form of gay bashing. Might this just be recovery P.R.?

He's only been the Pope a couple of months. When are you thinking of?

When he was a Cardinal in Argentina. He was pretty anti-gay as a Cardinal. I'm hoping at the very least this means there won't be direct opposition to marriage equality from the Church anymore. He and the church don't need to support it, but he shouldn't be directly opposing it anymore either.

In all fairness, just because the church doesn't oppose it, doesn't mean the religious right won't.


Ohhh I know, but it would be a lot harder for them to argue against it when their institution doesn't even suppor them anymore.
 
2013-07-29 10:43:53 AM  
As I said in an earlier red thread, I have to admit this is significant.  But on the same trip he basically told women to keep quiet and know their place.

All in all, I think he's pretty good.  He hasn't been on the job all that long, and the Vatican has been a megalithic, corrupt institution for centuries.  So his pace is impressive.
 
2013-07-29 10:50:28 AM  

Diogenes: As I said in an earlier red thread, I have to admit this is significant.  But on the same trip he basically told women to keep quiet and know their place.

All in all, I think he's pretty good.  He hasn't been on the job all that long, and the Vatican has been a megalithic, corrupt institution for centuries.  So his pace is impressive.


Yeah, it's all relative.  Nobody expects one Pope to change the entire institution overnight, but this is a promising development.  While it has no real effect on anyone's life, it is a sign of the cultural dynamic's shift toward acceptance.  Keep in mind that only 13 short years ago, gay marriage didn't exist anywhere.  Now it exists in, what a dozen or so countries and 1/5 of U.S. states?  The Catholic church, or any institution or person can back down kicking and screaming, but they are going to have to back down just the same.  Some people are gay.  It's just not that big of a deal.
 
2013-07-29 10:53:22 AM  

nekom: Some people are gay.  It's just not that big of a deal.


I'm not sure if it's intentional on his part or not, but it starts to separate the pedophilia issues in the church from the existence of homosexuals in the church.  As opposed to his predecessors and some church underlings who blame the former on the latter.
 
2013-07-29 11:12:06 AM  

Confabulat: nekom: I think he's about as radical as a Pope could be and still get elected.

Yeah, he needs to watch those bombs and snipers, this guy has got to be marked.


I am quite positive the Vatican institution is looking at the college of cardinals right now and sneering at them while muttering "why the fark did you do this" and mean while the college is looking over smugly and answers "Because we're saving you from yourself"
 
2013-07-29 11:12:42 AM  
he's-a tha freakin' pope!

/family guy
 
2013-07-29 11:12:45 AM  
farm5.staticflickr.com
 
2013-07-29 11:13:16 AM  

tallguywithglasseson: who am I to judge?

He added, "what am I, the Pope?"


He seems to remember that line that many Christians etc seem to frequently and conveniently forget...
Judge not lest ye be judged. Just saying is seems like good policy not to cast stones.. oops there goes another one.
 
2013-07-29 11:13:20 AM  

nekom: I'm not Catholic, but I like this guy.  I think he's about as radical as a Pope could be and still get elected.  They said a Jesuit Pope would be something entirely different, and they weren't just whistling Dixie.


The Jesuits are awesome.  Science minded, tolerant, anti-bureaucracy, believe they should live modestly.  The Jesuits should be put in charge of the Catholic Church
 
2013-07-29 11:13:33 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: Confabulat: nekom: I think he's about as radical as a Pope could be and still get elected.

Yeah, he needs to watch those bombs and snipers, this guy has got to be marked.

I am quite positive the Vatican institution is looking at the college of cardinals right now and sneering at them while muttering "why the fark did you do this" and mean while the college is looking over smugly and answers "Because we're saving you from yourself"


What is the "Vatican Institution"?

/not catholic
 
2013-07-29 11:14:25 AM  
Here is a more detailed report including other questions from the flight.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1303260.htm
 
2013-07-29 11:14:32 AM  
Why do I have the feeling that the Vatican is looking into doing a recount?
 
2013-07-29 11:16:05 AM  

Netrngr: He seems to remember that line that many Christians etc seem to frequently and conveniently forget...
Judge not lest ye be judged.


i1.ytimg.com
Eff that!  Sometimes things are wrong and people need to say so.  I agree with this issue, but the "judge not" thing is a cop out.

/Don't bring Paulie to an intervention.  It will not go well for anyone.
 
2013-07-29 11:16:30 AM  
This guy's hired Obama's PR department, didn't he?
 
2013-07-29 11:16:59 AM  
Well, after all of the alter boys have been molested by the priests, how can they really have any ammo against gay marriage anyway?

This pope seems to have a pretty good sense of self.  Hope the rest of the Catholic beaurocrats don't have him killed because of it..
 
2013-07-29 11:17:39 AM  

Diogenes: As I said in an earlier red thread, I have to admit this is significant.  But on the same trip he basically told women to keep quiet and know their place.

All in all, I think he's pretty good.  He hasn't been on the job all that long, and the Vatican has been a megalithic, corrupt institution for centuries.  So his pace is impressive.


You gotta crawl before you can walk.
 
2013-07-29 11:17:57 AM  
If a Priest has vowed to remain celibate, who cares who he wants to bone? He can't have anyone. Is homosexual temptation somehow worse than heterosexual temptation?

STOP THINKING ABOUT WHICH FLAVOR WOULD BE TASTIEST, PRIEST-O. YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY.
 
mhd
2013-07-29 11:17:59 AM  
What he also said:
"The problem is not having this orientation. We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem."

Has the pope been to Russia lately?

/"Masonic lobbies"?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-29 11:18:09 AM  

nekom: I_C_Weener: He doesn't even know how to hate.

If you take out the supernatural stuff, the message of Jesus is surprisingly socialist and progressive.  Don't let the Christian right know this, but Jesus himself never said anything about homosexuality.  He said plenty on love, tolerance and helping each other.  I consider the J man to be one of the world's great philosophers, and this Pope seems to "get it".


You're doing it wrong.
 
2013-07-29 11:18:44 AM  

Confabulat: nekom: I think he's about as radical as a Pope could be and still get elected.

Yeah, he needs to watch those bombs and snipers, this guy has got to be marked.


As long as he stays away from the Southern United States, he should be fine.
 
2013-07-29 11:18:49 AM  

nekom: If you take out the supernatural stuff, the message of Jesus is surprisingly socialist and progressive


No it isn't.  Jesus compelled people to help one another out of the goodness of their hearts.  Socialism/progressivism implies the government conscripting the citizens into serving one another by force.

Also, "Be fruitful and multiply" implies you are first fruitful and have built a solid foundation for yourself.  Then enrich your life with children.  Not, have 5 kids and then complain that Wal-Mart is keeping you down because your job as a bagger cant support them.

Progressives have a deluded sense of what charity actually is and paying taxes alone doesn't make one charitable.
 
Biv
2013-07-29 11:19:08 AM  

Diogenes: ... on the same trip he basically told women to keep quiet and know their place.


Like everyone is saying, great pope.

/will subscribe to his newsletter.
 
2013-07-29 11:19:34 AM  
Translation:  "I will not judge you, but this book right here which is the basis of my entire life condemns you to hell for being an evil sinner."

The pope's words are completely meaningless without the church as a whole changes its stance on homosexuality.
 
2013-07-29 11:19:41 AM  

AnotherBluesStringer: These are just a few of the first links that popped up. Don't get me wrong, this guy seems great by most accounts. And, hey, there is always the chance he changed his opinion. I hope he really is in tune with the whole "who am I to judge" instead of the "gay adoption is discrimination against children." I just think something here smells like a PR move.


I don't think it's a PR move, more of a practical move.

While priests are nominally celibate, last Pope said people with deep rooted homosexual tendencies (read: gay) couldn't be priests, even if they're not acting on their orientation/desires/urges/tendencies whatever.
I believe the original decision had something to do with priest boy-touching, and the idea that the offenders were offending because they were gay.

New Pope is backing that down, my guess because it would affect a lot of people who either want to become priests or are priests already, but I suppose if you're an optimist you might think he's rejecting the homosexual+abstinence=pedophilia theory.

At the same time he's saying people who've had consensual, adult homosex (and presumably have repented) should be forgiven and the sin forgotten. It also just so happens a senior aide is being accused of having had a homosexual relationship some years ago.

Homosex, of course, remains a sin for which you must ask forgiveness. He's still judging that. And he's judged it to be bad.
 
2013-07-29 11:19:49 AM  

skinink: Why do I have the feeling that the Vatican is looking into doing a recount?


election results = lies, lets recount
 
2013-07-29 11:21:42 AM  

AnotherBluesStringer: I'm not trying to be "that guy," but hasn't he in the past said something along the lines of gay couples adopting children is a form of child abuse or something of the like? I seem to remember some form of gay bashing. Might this just be recovery P.R.?


Maybe his opinion has "Evolved".

Like somebody else famous..
 
2013-07-29 11:22:09 AM  
Why the sudden change? I still don't trust him, or anything else he stands for.
 
2013-07-29 11:22:42 AM  

graeth: skinink: Why do I have the feeling that the Vatican is looking into doing a recount?

election results = lies, lets recount


or have a military coup and call it a popular uprising
 
2013-07-29 11:24:04 AM  
In context, it seems more like he's not advocating acceptance of homosexuality, but acceptance of homosexual celibacy - the same "hate the sin, not the sinner" stuff they've been preaching forever:
"But if a person, whether a layperson, priest or sister, goes to confession and converts, the Lord forgives. And when the Lord forgives, he forgets. This is important," he said, because those who want the Lord to forget their sins should forget those of others.

"St. Peter committed one of the biggest sins ever -- he denied Christ -- and he made him pope," Pope Francis said.

Addressing the issue of the gay lobby, Pope Francis said it was important to "distinguish between a person who is gay and someone who makes a gay lobby," he said. "A gay lobby isn't good."

"A gay person who is seeking God, who is of good will -- well, who am I to judge him?" the pope said. "The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well. It says one must not marginalize these persons, they must be integrated into society. The problem isn't this (homosexual) orientation -- we must be like brothers and sisters. The problem is something else, the problem is lobbying either for this orientation or a political lobby or a Masonic lobby."


So, if someone is gay and confesses their sinful desires and repents, then the Catholic Church should accept them. But that doesn't extend to considering homosexuality acceptable, advocating for (or even tolerating) gay marriage, etc.

This is also consistent with his "gay people shouldn't be allowed to adopt children" position.
 
2013-07-29 11:24:21 AM  

fireclown: Netrngr: He seems to remember that line that many Christians etc seem to frequently and conveniently forget...
Judge not lest ye be judged.

[i1.ytimg.com image 480x360]
Eff that!  Sometimes things are wrong and people need to say so.  I agree with this issue, but the "judge not" thing is a cop out.

/Don't bring Paulie to an intervention.  It will not go well for anyone.

Ok if you believe in God and say The Bible is his holy word... then how can quoting it directly be a cop out? Also I never said you had to agree with anything you see as wrong just that you shouldn't judge you should minister to them. Its kinda what the book says to do.
All of the divergent ones Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all basically say the same thing if you read the literal words and leave emotion and personal feelings out of it
 
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