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(NBC News)   There's a new star rising in French politics and she's giving the old boys club a run for their money. How does one say it in french? Ah yes, C'est la vie   (worldnews.nbcnews.com) divider line 51
    More: Interesting, French government, National Assembly, digital economy, female politicians, President Nicolas Sarkozy, Fillon, military trains, Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet  
•       •       •

3472 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Jul 2013 at 6:32 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-28 01:58:00 PM  
Well at least they won't have to pay her as much as a man.
 
2013-07-28 02:29:34 PM  
Think they'd do a lot better using Melissa Theuriau.
Or Alizee.
 
2013-07-28 06:35:55 PM  

cwick: Think they'd do a lot better using Melissa Theuriau.
Or Alizee.


Good picks. I'd go with Lea Seydoux, Marion Cotillard, or Clemence Poesy.
 
2013-07-28 06:53:00 PM  
just goes to show you never can tell
 
2013-07-28 06:56:18 PM  
"I am a killer ... everybody is a killer in politics. Some know how to shoot, some do not. Some do that [shoot] in your face, most of them do that in your back. I do that in the face," she said.
 
2013-07-28 06:58:22 PM  
A lot of people make work sacrifices for family and visa versa... It isn't sexism just because you're making these sacrifices and happen to be female.
 
2013-07-28 07:01:30 PM  
So a woman is running for mayor of Paris and maybe someday possibly conceivably might run for president of France.

This is big news for some reason?
 
2013-07-28 07:01:34 PM  
Being Fark, I guess it's not Marine Le Pen . Yep.
 
2013-07-28 07:07:53 PM  
It's, "French" subby, not french.
"That's life?" Is that what they say?
I have my doubts.
 
2013-07-28 07:17:55 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: It's, "French" subby, not french.
"That's life?" Is that what they say?
I have my doubts.


When they put on their big boy pants and stop surrendering every other day, they can have a capital letter.
 
2013-07-28 07:25:14 PM  
does she have hairy armpits?
 
2013-07-28 07:32:43 PM  
C'est la vie?

I was gonna go with "Cherchez la femme".
 
2013-07-28 07:47:26 PM  
"""She was twice told by two of her own party's leaders that she'd missed out on becoming a government minister because she was pregnant. """

The article calls this sexism.  Which is part of the reason why words like sexism and racism mean almost nothing today.

Being told you missed an opportunity because you were pregnant is, at worst, cynical on the part of that person, but it is not sexist.  That is, if sexism still means hatred/distrust of a given gender.  Or has it come to mean, "Anytime you say something to someone and it hurts their feelings, no matter what the circumstances."

And besides that, has no one been taught what 'opportunity cost' is?

"""When first elected, staff at the entrance to the National Assembly used to assume her male assistant was in fact the lawmaker, instead of her. """

This is stereotyping, not sexism.  While stereotyping might be a way of acting on sexism, it is not necessarily sexist.  In this case, the guy was probably just used to seeing only men in politics, and I see no indication that he hates women because he made an assumption based on prior experience.  Again, the more the word gets watered down, the less it actually means anything.  Sexism - the word - is becoming a joke... just a word thrown out whenever you want to make someone feel bad for something they said.

"""Kosciusko-Morizet, now 40 and married to a former Socialist politician, said her gender had played a part when she twice missed out on jobs as a government minister.

"I have two children and on each occasion, on each pregnancy, I lost an opportunity for being a minister," she said. "And I was told that, which is strange." """


Yes...gender does tend to determine whether or not you're capable of getting pregnant, that is true.

This part cracks me up too:

""""They have managed to remain a boys' club for a very long time, much longer than in Anglo-Saxon countries," she said. "We're a Latin country with a really hard, male-domination tradition. As soon as any kind of profession becomes more female, it's valued less, it's paid less." """

This is probably the harshest thing I've heard said about women in the entire article.  According to the logic in this quote, women are capable of debasing and devaluing a profession just by working in it.  Ouch.

If that's the case, perhaps we should seriously consider not letting women into any important professions, since they'll just ruin it anyway.  Way to preach, MSNBC.

Please don't bother getting mad at me for saying that.  I'm not trolling you, and I also never said I agreed that wages drop when women go into a career field.  The "journalists" who wrote this article just quoted someone who blurted it out likely without having any proof beyond conjecture and ran with it hoping people would accept it uncritically.  I'm just taking the logic of the article to its conclusion.

Also, the theory that women would get paid less the more of them there are in a given field because of sexism is dubious at best.  I don't remember the price for labor being calculated at the intersection of the supply, demand, and sexism curves from my economics classes.  How do you even measure sexism?  Or do you first assume there's sexism and then find the difference between real wages and your assumed non-sexist wages to prove that there's sexism?

It's strange for me to read articles like this, which are just so blatantly biased with an agenda (despite being passed off as "news") that you can scarcely find an impartial word.  The only reason I can imagine stuff like this is written is to encourage more women to get into "positions of power" in politics and stuff.  Like a, "You can do it too!" sort of thing.

Which strikes me as a somewhat useless endeavor.  I'm sure it will work to an extent, but women don't need power to get laid*, so they'll never be as motivated to bother with crap careers like politics.

[*Interpret loosely]
 
2013-07-28 07:55:06 PM  
This is the place that made paternity tests illegal right?  Yeah, good luck.
 
2013-07-28 08:26:09 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: It's, "French" subby, not french.
"That's life?" Is that what they say?
I have my doubts.


That was to keep you awake, you fry.
 
2013-07-28 09:35:18 PM  
In what way does C'est la vie fit in any meaningful way in this headline? Did subby want to seem cultural and sophisticated by throwing in the only french phrase he/she knows?
 
2013-07-28 09:36:49 PM  
How about, non.
 
2013-07-28 09:49:25 PM  
Politics in France has long been a "boys' club" where the few women who dare to enter soon discover they are unwelcome.

Errr...whatever happen to France being the bastion of liberalism?  Being sexist isn't very liberal.
 
2013-07-28 09:53:33 PM  
if Morizet can avoid becoming a derpy, partisan demagogue like the women that came before her (such as Segolene Royal or Marine Le Pen), she should stand a chance in national elections.
 
2013-07-28 09:56:56 PM  

blue_2501: Politics in France has long been a "boys' club" where the few women who dare to enter soon discover they are unwelcome.

Errr...whatever happen to France being the bastion of liberalism?  Being sexist isn't very liberal.


when was that ever the case?
 
2013-07-28 10:03:32 PM  
i126.photobucket.com

/seems fitting for the thread
 
2013-07-28 10:09:32 PM  
What the fark is an "old boys club?"  All male anything doesn't exist anymore.  (Strangely enough, all female groups are A-OK - see how Title IX affected colleges [hint: no men only schools while women's schools are still allowed])
 
2013-07-28 10:15:28 PM  

ramblinwreck: What the fark is an "old boys club?"  All male anything doesn't exist anymore.  (Strangely enough, all female groups are A-OK - see how Title IX affected colleges [hint: no men only schools while women's schools are still allowed])


Yes, there are no all male fraternities at colleges, or private clubs that only allow men.  It's always those wimmen's messing up our supper clubs.
 
2013-07-28 10:30:35 PM  
"Politics in France has long been a "boys' club" where the few women who dare to enter soon discover they are unwelcome"

That's not what the black maids say...
 
2013-07-28 10:48:23 PM  
Isn't the head of their far-right nationalist party female... sorta like how Michelle Bachmann is the head of the American far right nationalist party.
 
2013-07-28 10:49:13 PM  

ramblinwreck: What the fark is an "old boys club?"


media.npr.org
President George W. Bush signs the Partial Birth Abortion Bill surrounded by
high ranking Republican Congressmen LINK
 
2013-07-28 10:58:59 PM  

IrishFarmer: if sexism still means hatred/distrust of a given gender.


 
Merriam-Webster Definition of SEXISM1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women 2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex - sex·ist adjective or noun
 
2013-07-28 11:31:32 PM  

Piizzadude: HotIgneous Intruder: It's, "French" subby, not french.
"That's life?" Is that what they say?
I have my doubts.

When they put on their big boy pants and stop surrendering every other day, they can have a capital letter.


I've never understood the hatred for France when it comes to war. Yes, I understand the meme but lots of real people actually take it seriousy (freedom fries, anyone?). And I'd like to remind you that without the cheese-eaters, this country might not exist.

The French have a long history of whooping ass. So they weren't on board with Iraq. Now they're pussies because Fox said so?
 
2013-07-28 11:32:15 PM  
And did you forget Libya?
 
2013-07-28 11:40:20 PM  

dickfreckle: Now they're pussies because Fox said so?


Fox viewers believe we were recently at war against France.
 
2013-07-29 12:10:27 AM  

Philbb: IrishFarmer: if sexism still means hatred/distrust of a given gender.

 
Merriam-Webster Definition of SEXISM1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women 2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex - sex·ist adjective or noun


prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against white women

FTFY

Phew.  That definition couldn't  possiblybe abused and applied to anything and everything.  You could even accuse me of sexism for stereotyping women as strong and independent, with that thing.

\The definition is just vague enough that whoever wants to use it as a tool of social manipulation can feel free to do it with ease.  And if we're being honest with each other, which we should be because we're both probably adults here, that's exactly what the word is used for these days.  I don't care how many dictionaries you pull up, actions speak much louder than words.
 
2013-07-29 12:11:21 AM  

Philbb: IrishFarmer: if sexism still means hatred/distrust of a given gender.

 
Merriam-Webster Definition of SEXISM1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women 2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex - sex·ist adjective or noun


imaguitarist.files.wordpress.com

What's wrong with being sexy?
 
2013-07-29 12:15:26 AM  
C'est la vie, c'est la vie
That's just the way it goes
That's life!
 
2013-07-29 01:07:35 AM  
Is she related to American hero Tadeusz Kosciuszko?
 
2013-07-29 01:23:25 AM  

IrishFarmer: Philbb: IrishFarmer: if sexism still means hatred/distrust of a given gender.


Merriam-Webster Definition of SEXISM1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women 2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex - sex·ist adjective or noun

prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against white women

FTFY

Phew.  That definition couldn't  possiblybe abused and applied to anything and everything.  You could even accuse me of sexism for stereotyping women as strong and independent, with that thing.

\The definition is just vague enough that whoever wants to use it as a tool of social manipulation can feel free to do it with ease.  And if we're being honest with each other, which we should be because we're both probably adults here, that's exactly what the word is used for these days.  I don't care how many dictionaries you pull up, actions speak much louder than words.


The word for hatred/disgust of females is "misogyny" and the word for hatred/disgust of males is "misandry". I realize that some people include those definitions when using the word "sexism", but they are technically incorrect. You claim that this is the actual definition so you are completely wrong.

You then go on to say, "This is stereotyping, not sexism ..." and "I see no indication that he hates women because he made an assumption based on prior experience...." The actual definition of "sexism" includes stereotyping and prejudice (assumptions) and has nothing to do with hatred.

After that you say, "... gender does tend to determine whether or not you're capable of getting pregnant,.." which you seem to think has some sort of meaning, but has nothing at all to do with why a woman should lose "an opportunity for being a minister"  just because she is pregnant.
 
2013-07-29 05:08:26 AM  
Chirac reportedly called her "l'emmerdeuse" - meaning troublemaker or "pain in the neck."

Try "shiat slinger" instead.
 
2013-07-29 06:44:08 AM  

blue_2501: Politics in France has long been a "boys' club" where the few women who dare to enter soon discover they are unwelcome.

Errr...whatever happen to France being the bastion of liberalism?  Being sexist isn't very liberal.


 I think you're confusing France with the Nordic countries.
 
2013-07-29 08:35:23 AM  

IrishFarmer: Being told you missed an opportunity because you were pregnant is, at worst, cynical on the part of that person, but it is not sexist. That is, if sexism still means hatred/distrust of a given gender. Or has it come to mean, "Anytime you say something to someone and it hurts their feelings, no matter what the circumstances."


You are confusing misogyny for sexism.
 
2013-07-29 08:37:19 AM  
I thought Cheley camps were in Colorado, not Pittsburgh.
 
2013-07-29 09:04:03 AM  
I like how she's running against another woman but she's the one breaking barriers, not the other one.
 
2013-07-29 10:24:03 AM  

ramblinwreck: What the fark is an "old boys club?"


farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2013-07-29 10:30:02 AM  
Political analyst Nicole Bacharan, a fellow at the Fondation Nationale des Sciences Politiques, said that male politicians were "having a very hard time making room for women."
"They have managed to remain a boys' club for a very long time, much longer than in Anglo-Saxon countries," she said. "We're a Latin country with a really hard, male-domination tradition. As soon as any kind of profession becomes more female, it's valued less, it's paid less."
But she said sexism in politics was diminishing with the younger generation considering such attitudes unacceptable.
Bacharan said Kosciusko-Morizet and Hidalgo, currently deputy mayor, were "physically attractive, beautiful women" who "manage to be taken seriously."


France has a long way to go if even other women still view the physical appearance of a female politician their most important characteristic.
 
2013-07-29 10:39:12 AM  

Flab: Political analyst Nicole Bacharan, a fellow at the Fondation Nationale des Sciences Politiques, said that male politicians were "having a very hard time making room for women."
"They have managed to remain a boys' club for a very long time, much longer than in Anglo-Saxon countries," she said. "We're a Latin country with a really hard, male-domination tradition. As soon as any kind of profession becomes more female, it's valued less, it's paid less."
But she said sexism in politics was diminishing with the younger generation considering such attitudes unacceptable.
Bacharan said Kosciusko-Morizet and Hidalgo, currently deputy mayor, were "physically attractive, beautiful women" who "manage to be taken seriously."

France has a long way to go if even other women still view the physical appearance of a female politician their most important characteristic.


You're kidding yourself if you think that physical appearance isn't viewed as important to any politician, regardless of gender.
 
2013-07-29 10:51:46 AM  

Frank N Stein: Flab: Political analyst Nicole Bacharan, a fellow at the Fondation Nationale des Sciences Politiques, said that male politicians were "having a very hard time making room for women."
"They have managed to remain a boys' club for a very long time, much longer than in Anglo-Saxon countries," she said. "We're a Latin country with a really hard, male-domination tradition. As soon as any kind of profession becomes more female, it's valued less, it's paid less."
But she said sexism in politics was diminishing with the younger generation considering such attitudes unacceptable.
Bacharan said Kosciusko-Morizet and Hidalgo, currently deputy mayor, were "physically attractive, beautiful women" who "manage to be taken seriously."

France has a long way to go if even other women still view the physical appearance of a female politician their most important characteristic.

You're kidding yourself if you think that physical appearance isn't viewed as important to any politician, regardless of gender.


I understand that politicans need to have a good image, but no one - apart from cartoonists - would have said "Sarkozy's a midget who managed to be taken seriously".

Likewise, the people who made fun of Clinton's cankles or pantsuits were usually people deriding her, not people praising her wit.
 
2013-07-29 11:13:53 AM  

Philbb: IrishFarmer: if sexism still means hatred/distrust of a given gender.


Merriam-Webster Definition of SEXISM1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women 2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex - sex·ist adjective or noun


There is no such thing as "discrimination against". Discrimination is the opposite of incrimination - it means to find someone free of criminalty, so, there's no "against". The reason most people bark about being "discriminated against" is that they simply do not wish to be inspected and held accountable for the idiocy they perpetuate.

Now, there is a pair of very good words which have use in these discussions. They are "bias" and "prejudice".

I just wish that people who post on the internet would remember that the past tense of the former has the letters "ed" at the end. The past tense seems to be broken on the internet. Might have something to do with dinkyphone autocomplete, but I would bet it's just teh stupid.

/Your so bias!
 
2013-07-29 11:28:18 AM  

barefoot in the head: There is no such thing as "discrimination against". Discrimination is the opposite of incrimination - it means to find someone free of criminalty


cdn-3.lifehack.org

To discriminiate
1620s, from Latin discriminatus, past participle of discriminare "to divide, separate," from discrimen (genitive discriminis) "interval, distinction, difference," derived noun from discernere. The adverse (usually racial) sense is first recorded 1866, American English.
Source
 
2013-07-29 12:22:02 PM  

Frank N Stein: You're kidding yourself if you think that physical appearance isn't viewed as important to any politician, regardless of gender.


Yes, that's why Boris is always so meticulous regarding his appearance.

www.psa.ac.uk
mundabor.files.wordpress.com
Oh, and in all fairness politically and geographically and in football I have not forgotten George Galloway.

blogs.guardian.co.uk
 
2013-07-29 01:08:16 PM  

Flab: barefoot in the head: There is no such thing as "discrimination against". Discrimination is the opposite of incrimination - it means to find someone free of criminalty

[cdn-3.lifehack.org image 500x333]

To discriminiate
1620s, from Latin discriminatus, past participle of discriminare "to divide, separate," from discrimen (genitive discriminis) "interval, distinction, difference," derived noun from discernere. The adverse (usually racial) sense is first recorded 1866, American English.
Source


My etymology was mistaken, but the original meaning did not impose a negative connotation on the act of making distinctions, such as occurs today. That is my point.

"The adverse (usually racial) sense is first recorded 1866, American English".
What a surprise. By the way, there is no such thing as American English. There is English, and then there is hooked on phonics.

What is the purpose of a discriminating mind? In dividing and separating do we find the negative exclusively? Of course not. But there are those who take offense at the very act of examination.
 
2013-07-29 01:23:11 PM  

HighOnCraic: C'est la vie, c'est la vie
That's just the way it goes
That's life!


yeah, so i got this reference and went to find a pic just for such an occasion and then i stumbled upon this.

thesmokingnun.files.wordpress.com

Seriously, you don't have to keep the same hair all this time.  Just let it go, man. I mean, that's life.
 
2013-07-29 02:20:19 PM  

Philbb: The word for hatred/disgust of females is "misogyny" and the word for hatred/disgust of males is "misandry". I realize that some people include those definitions when using the word "sexism", but they are technically incorrect. You claim that this is the actual definition so you are completely wrong.


I stand corrected.  I've often seen them used interchangeably and so that's how I tend to use it.

Philbb: You then go on to say, "This is stereotyping, not sexism ..." and "I see no indication that he hates women because he made an assumption based on prior experience...." The actual definition of "sexism" includes stereotyping and prejudice (assumptions) and has nothing to do with hatred.


This still feeds back into my original point, then.  Sexism is used as a bludgeon, when in fact the way it's defined it...isn't really that bad in most cases.  Sexism goes on all of the time with regards to men and women and even in a lot of cases where it's directed at women no one blinks an eye, despite the fact that (imo) we're pretty cognizant of cases of sexism against women.

To see how ridiculous this word is, you'd only have to read the article and see how much it applies sexism despite being apparently anti-sexism.

Politics in France has long been a "boys' club" where the few women who dare to enter soon discover they are unwelcome.

Sexism.  Stereotyping all men in the political field as being unwelcoming and hostile.

"It is still more difficult to speak up when one is a female politician because of numerous prejudices that unfortunately still exist in French society," she said.

Sexism.  Portraying men as prejudicial.

Political analyst Nicole Bacharan, a fellow at the Fondation Nationale des Sciences Politiques, said that male politicians were "having a very hard time making room for women."

Sexism.

We're a Latin country with a really hard, male-domination tradition.

Sexism.  Also, heh.

But she said sexism in politics was diminishing with the younger generation considering such attitudes unacceptable.

Ageism.  ;)

Bacharan said Kosciusko-Morizet and Hidalgo, currently deputy mayor, were "physically attractive, beautiful women" who "manage to be taken seriously."

Female-on-female sexism.  Giggity.

The last two...those are a joke, but you get my point.

So an article, implicitly shaming sexist attitudes, relies on those very same attitudes.  And this is why, to me (and I'm sure many others) accusations of "sexism" mean almost nothing.  If everything can be sexism, then it might as well be the case that nothing is.

Now, the word can be redeemed by incorporating consequences, I suppose.  So, like sexism is only sexism if it harms someone in some way.  And I mean more than just hurting their feelings a little bit by pointing out something that's likely to be true (and I would note that the female politician's feelings seemed to be intact).  Of course, this would preclude almost everything in that article, as well as most other instances of IRL sexism, because you're not going to harm someone just by assuming there are no women in politics because up to that point you haven't seen any.  But if that were considered harm, then I would also consider the stereotypes of men as prejudicial, hostile, etc. to be harmful to men and thus sexist and thus bringing us right back to my original point.  Unless we assume men are just stronger than women and can handle it, but...well sexism.

Also...These victim glorifying articles are the antithesis of female empowerment.  By overstating, or at least narrowly focusing on, how unwelcome women will be and how hostile it will be for them, women will either avoid these professions despite being able to make it in them, or they'll enter it with more of a victim mentality, or self-conscious mentality than they would otherwise.  I'm not a feminist, and as far as I'm concerned I see no benefit to women entering these career fields, but so long as they are going to I also don't think it should be made worse for them under the guise of empowerment.

I've had people "bring me down" from the moment I started my first career, and it would have done me absolutely no good to go into it feeling sorry for myself.

But really, the article is just hypocritical and stupid.  That's all I'm trying to say.
 
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