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(San Antonio Express)   15 months in the brig and a dishonorable discharge awarded to GI after reporting sexual assault. "The military is intent on sending a message that sexual assault victims should not come forward"   (expressnews.com) divider line 98
    More: Asinine, dishonorable discharges, sex crimes, Air Force Lt, fraternization, right to silence, self-incriminations, court martial, Georgia Institute of Technology  
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12773 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2013 at 5:00 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-28 05:02:11 PM  
There is a loooot more of it going on than people know, methinks.
 
2013-07-28 05:02:47 PM  
its like they can't even protect their Boobies
 
2013-07-28 05:03:30 PM  
If the military is dead set against bad PR from rapes, then fine.  There just need to be some "training accidents" for the rapists.
 
2013-07-28 05:04:13 PM  
With homosexuals openly serving, a huge concern for veterans and soldiers is fraternization.  It has been said, accurately, that our homosexual soldiers can be expected to behave responsibly and professionally and not fraternize (particularly from officers to enlisted).

This is not a minor thing.  I've seen straight couples fraternize in ways that utterly ruin unit cohesion and morale and actually get people hurt.

In those cases, for sure I want the officer booted from the military, and I feel that gays should be treated that way too.

The harassment of a potential sexual assaulter... I do not find that to be such a problem.  People have to fight for justice.  However, this person was never convicted and never got a trial, and the officer's actions show a lack of integrity (because he promised he would uphold the rules when he accepted his military commission).
 
2013-07-28 05:04:17 PM  

phillydrifter: its like they can't even protect their Boobies

penises
FTFY
 
2013-07-28 05:06:56 PM  
But is this ghey rape real rape?
 
2013-07-28 05:08:09 PM  
>And investigators say they discovered that some of the threats Cohen said were directed against him were actually created by him. OK, but many of the harassing incidents were quite real.

Not sure what I should believe here, but it looks like a case of boy who cried wolf too many times and muddied the evidence, so who knows what happened.
 
2013-07-28 05:10:52 PM  

malfist: >And investigators say they discovered that some of the threats Cohen said were directed against him were actually created by him. OK, but many of the harassing incidents were quite real.

Not sure what I should believe here, but it looks like a case of boy who cried wolf too many times and muddied the evidence, so who knows what happened.


It does raise the possibility that this guy might be a bit of a flake, I think. Really hard to tell without knowing more.

Hopefully now that gays can serve openly and attention is beginning to be paid to the issue of sexual assault in the military, things like this will quickly become less likely
 
2013-07-28 05:12:23 PM  

darth_badger: But is this ghey rape real rape?


Well, the body has was of just shutting that down.

What are the details on the wire fraud? Unless the wire fraud is for transmitting the details of a rapey rapist who they conclude didn't do rapey rapey because no one prosecuted him. I'm seeing a lot of Kafka in the world.
 
2013-07-28 05:15:05 PM  
I think they're sending a message that they shouldn't come.  Period.
 
2013-07-28 05:15:42 PM  

darth_badger: But is this ghey rape real rape?


You said "rape" twice.
 
2013-07-28 05:16:20 PM  

puffy999: There is a loooot more of it going on than people know, methinks.


CptFormerMrs.MFAWG says it's almost unbelievable how bad it's gotten in the last 10 years. She has close to 30 in, so I'm trusting her judgement.

It always tended to get swept under the rug, but her take is that it now tends to be a witchhunt on the victim, especially if they are female.

That said, I see alot of weasel words involved with this dude.
 
2013-07-28 05:20:20 PM  
"Investigators deliberately used Lt. Cohen's belief that he was being helped as a victim to collect evidence against him,"

Does this come in Olive Drab?

rlv.zcache.com

/or would that be Air Force light blue...
 
2013-07-28 05:23:40 PM  
On another board, a female prostitute joined the Army and let her former clients know what was going on.  She said male on male rape was quite prevalent in Pakistan and nothing was done.  She thought the ratio of male rape v female rape was something like 4:1 to 10:1 but few men came forward.  She even got married while in the service and was turning tricks while the hubby was away.

Supposedly she was honorably discharged.
 
2013-07-28 05:27:26 PM  
I had to read TFA twice, and I'm still not exactly sure what happened, because it's vague as hell.

At first glance it looks like the assault occurred in college before he even joined the military, but when I read it again, I guess it was while he was in the military, but before he applied for a commission. The author really doesn't make it clear when he joined the military, nor whether the assault happened when he was on duty.

Then there's this:

And investigators say they discovered that some of the threats Cohen said were directed against him were actually created by him. OK, but many of the harassing incidents were quite real.

Meaning he made up the threats? Or threatened his accuser? Or something else? Are they saying that it's OK that he lied on "some" things?

This was written by the paper's editorial board? REALLY? BOOOOO!
 
2013-07-28 05:27:44 PM  
So Cohen accuses some of the rapist's friends of harassing him and provided investigators with threatening emails that they sent to Cohen.  The investigation discovered that Cohen had hacked into those friend's accounts and sent the fake emails to himself.  In addition, he was discovered having sex with lower-ranking servicemen.

So, regardless of the merits or handling of the rape claim Cohen made, these were crimes that he did commit.  His rape and the bungled investigation does not excuse his crimes.

"I was raped by an officer in the past, so I had sex with that sergeant and, therefore, it's not fraternization."  Nope, not how it works.
 
2013-07-28 05:31:33 PM  
This whole thing is disturbing.  There was a Frontline or Bill Moyers episode about rape in the military a couple months ago.  This just echoes that.   Silence the victim and hide the perpetrator.
 
2013-07-28 05:31:54 PM  
In the end, Cohen pleaded guilty, including to fraternization involving sexual relationships with lower-ranking personnel.

It's this.

The UCMJ still has some VERY archaic crimes on the books--among them adultery (sex between a married individual and an unmarried individual) and fraternization (sex between officers and enlisted personnel). These are crimes which can be prosecuted regardless of the gender of the individuals involved.

While it's both sad and horrifying that such things even exist--and even worse that they should be used in cases of sexual assault and alleged sexual assault--I have to point out that it was a charge of adultery in part which was used to (correctly) bring down Donald Petraeus. It's because senior officers in sensitive positions can't keep it in their pants that guys like this have to face such awful prosecutions even today.
 
2013-07-28 05:32:28 PM  
He says he was raped in college by an Army guy. Five years later he joins the Air Force and this somehow makes that man angry (how did he even know) and he starts threatening him? That story doesn't quite add up.
 
2013-07-28 05:36:32 PM  

Ender's: darth_badger: But is this ghey rape real rape?

You said "rape" twice.


Well, he likes ghey rape and real rape.

Hey, wait--I said "rape" twice, too.  Okay.  Let me just say that I like real rape.  No, wait--!  I mean, gay rape.  !!!  Hold on.  Okay.  I meant real ghey rape.

/wait!
 
2013-07-28 05:37:42 PM  
"Don't ask, don't tell" has a different meaning these days.
 
2013-07-28 05:37:53 PM  

gnadfly: On another board, a female prostitute joined the Army and let her former clients know what was going on.  She said male on male rape was quite prevalent in Pakistan and nothing was done.  She thought the ratio of male rape v female rape was something like 4:1 to 10:1 but few men came forward.  She even got married while in the service and was turning tricks while the hubby was away.

Supposedly she was honorably discharged.


More like someone discharged inside her. Heyy-O!
 
2013-07-28 05:38:55 PM  
Military law ain't like civilian law. A lot of the rights you'd normally have in a civilian court don't figure into military law.
 
2013-07-28 05:43:08 PM  
HA-HA! This horseshiat will go on and on as long as we keep telling ourselves it's perfectly alright to mix genders and sexualities in military units. It's like throwing raw meat into a lions pen and telling the lions not to touch it.

The military IS NOT regular society. It is a society trained and given the task of aggression. The kind of people who are GOOD at this WILL have the proclivity to be aggressive, risk taking personalities that WILL grab da booty whenever they think they can get away with it.

Fill the military with well behaved metrosexual wusses and you end up with a military not fit for purpose.

Choose. One or the other. An effective military. Or a well behaved, rainbow military.
 
2013-07-28 05:44:33 PM  

bigwf2007: He says he was raped in college by an Army guy. Five years later he joins the Air Force and this somehow makes that man angry (how did he even know) and he starts threatening him? That story doesn't quite add up.


That's what I thought when I read it for the first time. This column would fail a Journalism 101 class in community college, and it was written by the editorial board of the paper. Even for an "Opinion" column.
 
2013-07-28 05:45:27 PM  
If anyone in power were to fire every one in the chain of command down to the person most responsible change will happen.  Until they clean the whole chain of command out those who don't care one way of the other will continue to not care one way or the other.  As soon as their paycheck their money is at risk they will care.
 
2013-07-28 05:50:18 PM  

Revek: If anyone in power were to fire every one in the chain of command down to the person most responsible change will happen.  Until they clean the whole chain of command out those who don't care one way of the other will continue to not care one way or the other.  As soon as their paycheck their money is at risk they will care.


Why do you hate freedom?
 
2013-07-28 05:51:28 PM  
Terribly vague article.  Glad I don't pay to subscribe to this rag anymore.  "Et tu Brute" seems to be the moral of this story. Either that or "military justice is to justice what military music is to music"
 
2013-07-28 05:58:53 PM  
FTFA "And investigators say they discovered that some of the threats Cohen said were directed against him were actually created by him. OK, but many of the harassing incidents were quite real."

And we're done.  He instantly becomes non-credible.
 
2013-07-28 06:00:20 PM  
Sounds like an application of Sharia law where the victim is guilty.
 
2013-07-28 06:05:02 PM  
It would be nice if there was some real evidence of higher up people ordering this. Otherwise, no one knows what is true.
 
2013-07-28 06:06:13 PM  
People who don't understand how the UCMJ and military justice works are often outraged when this sort of thing happens. When you report a crime, the investigation will look into both the suspect and the victims actions. Often times the victim ends up doing more shiat wrong than the alleged suspect did. Often these crimes may have nothing to do with the actual crime they originally reported, they will just come out in the course of the investigation.

People in the military live under a far more restrictive set of rules (UCMJ) than what normal people are used to, what some may think are minor infractions are actually pretty serious in the military.

Something that confuses even experts in civilian law is the way in which the UCMJ is written.  There are no misdemeanors or felonies. There's no first degree this or third degree that, everything is just a crime and how serious it's taken depends on many factors. Officers are often held more accountable than enlisted. Having an outstanding service record versus a poor one will determine a lot too. It's not like civilian trials where stuff can be ruled inadmissible, you get court martialed in the military and everything you've ever done is on the table.
 
2013-07-28 06:08:45 PM  

tbeatty: FTFA "And investigators say they discovered that some of the threats Cohen said were directed against him were actually created by him. OK, but many of the harassing incidents were quite real."

And we're done.  He instantly becomes non-credible.


Thinking this as well. Non-credible indeed...
 
2013-07-28 06:08:52 PM  
Interesting when rape in the military is broken down by RACE.

"Sadler surveyed female veterans (49% Army, 23% Air Force, and 22% Navy) asking about their histories of sexual assault and found familiar patterns:
Sixty-six percent of victims in her sample were white and 27% of victims were black.  Black perps were overrepresented having been involved in 43% of all sexual assaults.  Forty-three percent of all sexual assaults involved a white perp as well.  So the white-black ratio for victims is 2.4:1 whereas that for perpetrators is 1:1.
The racial demographics of each branch of the military are as follows:
Army, 74% white, 22% black; Air Force, 78% white, 16% black; Navy, 66% white, 19% black.
A composite given the sample used in Sadler's study suggests a pool of military men which is 18.6% black and 68.7% white.  So blacks commit rape at 2.3 times what would be expected given their demographic representation."

I once read a comment that white Rangers worried about females left behind at the base when they went out on patrol and left them alone with black support personnel.

People shouldn't join the military, period. There are no U.S. freedoms to protect out there.
 
2013-07-28 06:13:56 PM  

iheartscotch: Military law ain't like civilian law. A lot of the rights you'd normally have in a civilian court don't figure into military law.


For instance...?
 
2013-07-28 06:15:40 PM  
It's like Islam. For the same reasons.
 
2013-07-28 06:18:07 PM  

Gyrfalcon: The UCMJ still has some VERY archaic crimes on the books--among them adultery (sex between a married individual and an unmarried individual) and fraternization (sex between officers and enlisted personnel). These are crimes which can be prosecuted regardless of the gender of the individuals involved.


You can't have a unit commander farking an enlisted member because he may be one the deciding on sending that person into harms way.  I'll let you figure out why that's a bad idea.

It's good that more sane and intelligent people make the rules here...thousands of years of history and precedent surround even the most contemporary of military forces.
 
2013-07-28 06:18:30 PM  

Vectron: Interesting when rape in the military is broken down by RACE.

"Sadler surveyed female veterans (49% Army, 23% Air Force, and 22% Navy) asking about their histories of sexual assault and found familiar patterns:
Sixty-six percent of victims in her sample were white and 27% of victims were black.  Black perps were overrepresented having been involved in 43% of all sexual assaults.  Forty-three percent of all sexual assaults involved a white perp as well.  So the white-black ratio for victims is 2.4:1 whereas that for perpetrators is 1:1.
The racial demographics of each branch of the military are as follows:
Army, 74% white, 22% black; Air Force, 78% white, 16% black; Navy, 66% white, 19% black.
A composite given the sample used in Sadler's study suggests a pool of military men which is 18.6% black and 68.7% white.  So blacks commit rape at 2.3 times what would be expected given their demographic representation."

I once read a comment that white Rangers worried about females left behind at the base when they went out on patrol and left them alone with black support personnel.

People shouldn't join the military, period. There are no U.S. freedoms to protect out there.


Thanks for the example of how to misuse statistics.
 
2013-07-28 06:18:44 PM  

RickN99: So Cohen accuses some of the rapist's friends of harassing him and provided investigators with threatening emails that they sent to Cohen.  The investigation discovered that Cohen had hacked into those friend's accounts and sent the fake emails to himself.  In addition, he was discovered having sex with lower-ranking servicemen.

So, regardless of the merits or handling of the rape claim Cohen made, these were crimes that he did commit.  His rape and the bungled investigation does not excuse his crimes.

"I was raped by an officer in the past, so I had sex with that sergeant and, therefore, it's not fraternization."  Nope, not how it works.


That's what I got from this too.  The things that happened to him in the past are no excuse for what he did afterward.  Most criminals are farked up for a reason, but we can't give them all a pass for it.  It sounds like both Cohen and his attacker should be punished for different things.
 
2013-07-28 06:19:51 PM  
The main problem with homosexuality in the forces is the adverse effect it has upon esprit de corps and morale of the troops. Left on his own, a homosexual is capable almost anything that a normal man could achieve. Job performance is not the issue; rather, it is the natural bonding of soldiers.

If homosexuals are led to believe enlistment leads to some sort of safe haven for sodomy, the forces run the risk of having an over-subscription of homosexuals in the ranks.
 
2013-07-28 06:20:54 PM  

Gyrfalcon: In the end, Cohen pleaded guilty, including to fraternization involving sexual relationships with lower-ranking personnel.

It's this.

The UCMJ still has some VERY archaic crimes on the books--among them adultery (sex between a married individual and an unmarried individual) and fraternization (sex between officers and enlisted personnel). These are crimes which can be prosecuted regardless of the gender of the individuals involved.

While it's both sad and horrifying that such things even exist--and even worse that they should be used in cases of sexual assault and alleged sexual assault--I have to point out that it was a charge of adultery in part which was used to (correctly) bring down Donald Petraeus. It's because senior officers in sensitive positions can't keep it in their pants that guys like this have to face such awful prosecutions even today.


While adultery is a stupid thing to actually face criminal charges for, fraternization is something that NEEDS to be prosecuted, and prosecuted harder than it is.  I've seen that shiat just destroy units.  When the Colonel is banging his Captain secretary, and writing her OER, and ranking her against the other Captains in the brigade who AREN'T sucking his dick on a regular basis, it causes friction when she's rated top block.  Or when the company commander is nailing a Lance Corporal.  I was infantry, so it didn't happen in my unit, but some friends of mine said it was a nightmare.  The girls would get attitudes with NCOs and other officers, because the company commander would let her get away with it.  As for the sexual assault cases, my wife is a serving officer, and has been forced to investigate more than a few cases, because they like to make female officers do it so no one can say a male swept it under a rug.  Over half of the cases she's dealt with have been either "they were both massively farking drunk, and it seemed like she wanted it Saturday night, but Monday she decided she had been raped", or "First Sergeant made me stand duty for 3 Saturdays in a row because I farked up at work, so now I'm claiming he touched me, and I actually told other soldiers about my brilliant plan".
 
2013-07-28 06:22:06 PM  
Americans have a fetish with their armed servicemen and worship them like gods. This issue of rape being a major problem in the military... I wouldnt hold my breath of it ever being solved.
 
2013-07-28 06:24:59 PM  

Milo Minderbinder: iheartscotch: Military law ain't like civilian law. A lot of the rights you'd normally have in a civilian court don't figure into military law.

For instance...?


Here's a couple:

Higher or lower penalties for committing certain crimes based on the rank of the victim and perpetrator
Cheating on your spouse
"Failure to go" (not showing up for work)

Miranda rules actually apply when your under mere suspicion of committing a crime per the UCMJ vs civilian laws.
 
2013-07-28 06:34:01 PM  
Subby, ya forgot the ellipsis.
 
2013-07-28 06:37:06 PM  

devildog123: Gyrfalcon: In the end, Cohen pleaded guilty, including to fraternization involving sexual relationships with lower-ranking personnel.

It's this.

The UCMJ still has some VERY archaic crimes on the books--among them adultery (sex between a married individual and an unmarried individual) and fraternization (sex between officers and enlisted personnel). These are crimes which can be prosecuted regardless of the gender of the individuals involved.

While it's both sad and horrifying that such things even exist--and even worse that they should be used in cases of sexual assault and alleged sexual assault--I have to point out that it was a charge of adultery in part which was used to (correctly) bring down Donald Petraeus. It's because senior officers in sensitive positions can't keep it in their pants that guys like this have to face such awful prosecutions even today.

While adultery is a stupid thing to actually face criminal charges for, fraternization is something that NEEDS to be prosecuted, and prosecuted harder than it is.  I've seen that shiat just destroy units.  When the Colonel is banging his Captain secretary, and writing her OER, and ranking her against the other Captains in the brigade who AREN'T sucking his dick on a regular basis, it causes friction when she's rated top block.  Or when the company commander is nailing a Lance Corporal.  I was infantry, so it didn't happen in my unit, but some friends of mine said it was a nightmare.  The girls would get attitudes with NCOs and other officers, because the company commander would let her get away with it.  As for the sexual assault cases, my wife is a serving officer, and has been forced to investigate more than a few cases, because they like to make female officers do it so no one can say a male swept it under a rug.  Over half of the cases she's dealt with have been either "they were both massively farking drunk, and it seemed like she wanted it Saturday night, but Monday she decided she had been raped", ...


Preaching to the choir. I just happen to know a lot about fraternization--why it's both a good thing and a bad thing in the UCMJ--due to some events in my family. Like a lot of military laws, and laws in general, it is very unevenly applied, and seems often to be used, as in this case, to get rid of undesirable officers and enlisted personnel when some unpalatable facts come to light: "Yeah, he's guilty but so are you, so we'll agree not to prosecute you if you agree to drop the charges against him and everyone gets an other than honorable so we can all ignore the real problems."

It's not the need to prosecute, it's the unevenness that seems to become an issue. As you rightly observe, very often a senior officer will be nailing a junior officer or NCO and everyone knows about it, and it corrodes unit morale, and nobody will do anything right away because we can't get the Colonel (or Major or whoever) in trouble until someone absolutely has to say something because things are SO bad--then careers are ruined, or lives. Or, in a case like this, until something else comes along and "fraternization" is a handy way to brush aside other issues--like rape and falsifying reports.
 
2013-07-28 06:44:30 PM  
He looks like a weasley little lieutenant.
 
2013-07-28 06:53:04 PM  

mark12A: HA-HA! This horseshiat will go on and on as long as we keep telling ourselves it's perfectly alright to mix genders and sexualities in military units. It's like throwing raw meat into a lions pen and telling the lions not to touch it.

The military IS NOT regular society. It is a society trained and given the task of aggression. The kind of people who are GOOD at this WILL have the proclivity to be aggressive, risk taking personalities that WILL grab da booty whenever they think they can get away with it.

Fill the military with well behaved metrosexual wusses and you end up with a military not fit for purpose.

Choose. One or the other. An effective military. Or a well behaved, rainbow military.


Bingo bango ready to go go.

Armies are ment to crush kill and destroy. Followed up by enjoying the spoils of war such as rape, pillage and plunder.

it's just the way it is. Always has been and always will be.

Human nature and all that good stuff.
 
2013-07-28 07:02:53 PM  

Milo Minderbinder: iheartscotch: Military law ain't like civilian law. A lot of the rights you'd normally have in a civilian court don't figure into military law.

For instance...?


For one; the military has a much higher conviction rate than civilian courts. That is because, the burden of proof required to substantiate a charge is less. That's why some people wanted the guys in Guantanamo tried in military court.
 
2013-07-28 07:08:00 PM  
Gyrfalcon:

The UCMJ still has some VERY archaic crimes on the books--among them adultery (sex between a married individual and an unmarried individual) and fraternization (sex between officers and enlisted personnel).

On the contrary, they're not archaic at all, especially in a military context.

For adultery, there's a very real problem with being deployed for long stretches - you're not home. It's useful to have "and if you diddle your neighbor's wife while he's away and get caught, your career is over" to check that up a bit. As my old first sgt used to say, that and a quarter pay phone call on the way home saves a lot of military marriages.

As for fraternization, there's few things that are worse for unit discipline, cohesion and morale than that. You just can't have that going on. In the larger context of things, the general rule was that you didn't fool around with anyone more than one grade higher or lower, nor in your chain of command.
 
2013-07-28 07:11:13 PM  

mark12A: HA-HA! This horseshiat will go on and on as long as we keep telling ourselves it's perfectly alright to mix genders and sexualities in military units. It's like throwing raw meat into a lions pen and telling the lions not to touch it.
The military IS NOT regular society. It is a society trained and given the task of aggression. The kind of people who are GOOD at this WILL have the proclivity to be aggressive, risk taking personalities that WILL grab da booty whenever they think they can get away with it.
Fill the military with well behaved metrosexual wusses and you end up with a military not fit for purpose.
Choose. One or the other. An effective military. Or a well behaved, rainbow military.


Your concept of the military is rather outdated.

Today's military, first and foremost, seeks discipline. Discipline to do what they're told and to not do what they're told not to do. Discipline to follow the rules of engagement. Discipline to act appropriately sexually.
 
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