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(The Verge)   Ballmer admits Microsoft built too many surface tablets while nailing them to his roof as cheap shingle substitutes   (theverge.com) divider line 148
    More: Obvious, Ballmer, Microsoft, Windows, Windows Store, Microsoft built, Ballmer admits, Surface RT, roofs  
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3277 clicks; posted to Business » on 28 Jul 2013 at 1:48 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



148 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-07-28 08:16:09 AM  
I think their problem is multifold:

1) Ballmer wanted to become a "tablet and application" company.  In other words, he wanted to be Apple, which is a mistake I think.  I mean, if you want an Apple, you can already buy that, and they kind of have the market on that.  He wanted to get away from just being an operating system company, which I get, but unifying your device operation across platforms just made everyone angry on your established base.  Windows 8, for all the good it has, pisses off a lot of people with the lack of familiar desktop start menu in order to try to homogenize the experience with your portable devices.  You didn't really increase your mobile usage at the expense of irritating your traditional base.

2) While the Surface Pro is by all accounts an awesome system that everyone I know that has one absolutely loves (see also:   Mike Krahulik of Penny Arcade's self review of the thing).  If I hadn't JUST bought a new ultrabook for editing my photos right before it was announced, I would have held out for that.  Everything I read says that while it's storage is limited (nothing that can't be fixed with a portable hard drive full of DNGs), it's more than powerful enough and has all the features of a Waccom visual tablet. for editing.

That said, the fact that they released an identical looking but intensely inferior Surface RT really confused the market.  The Pro runs a full version of Windows 8, whose "Metro" menu is infinitely less frustrating on a touch screen/tablet like device, and capable of running anything a normal laptop can run.  The RT, however, is like Microsoft's answer to the iPad, and can only run what you'd find on any mobile platform equivalent.  I think it confused the market, and people that would have heard about how awesome the Surface Pro is instead heard from a friend or a news site how stupid the RT was, and couldn't really tell the difference between the two.  And I can't really blame the average, non-techy person.  
3) Most markets usually end up boiling down to two companies.  Right now, the mobile market that Microsoft is desperate to get a piece of is dominated by Android and IOS.  And while they've made huge strides in that direction, it's going to be tough to get people used to the idea of a third major choice.  It may take an epic mistake on the part of one or the other, pissing off a large amount of customers, to allow enough breathing room for MS to flourish.  And since Android is so fragmented among devices (Samsung being the current king, but a lot their own having multiple variants and having of other companies' phones out there too), you probably won't piss off a lot of people at once for one defective device. So that leaves Apple to screw the pooch with a bad product, but for all of their shortcomings they do make a pretty solid product and don't have to program around a thousand different variants.  

And, let's face it, customer loyalty to them is pretty high among the Apple faithful.  They could announce the next iPhone would give you electric shocks every time in rings instead of vibrating, and a very large amount of their customers would laud it as revolutionary and burn another tribute to Steve Jobs.

This doesn't leave for a lot of room for MS to come in, so it's going to take a lot more than "Look, it's just like that versin of Windows you didn't like on your new laptop, only on your phone!  Great, right?!" to sell it.

/nerd
 
2013-07-28 08:19:38 AM  
Please excuse the spelling and formatting mistakes.  Had a bit much to drink last night with the family, and woke up far too early.
 
2013-07-28 10:38:15 AM  
seriesaddict.fr

"well, that's ballmer for you."
 
2013-07-28 12:06:43 PM  
Bundle them free with an iPad?

I don't know why Microsoft is having trouble, they came out with some of the first tablet computers way back in the day.  Clearly, their market research should be the oldest.
 
2013-07-28 12:12:30 PM  

Shadowknight: I think their problem is multifold:

1) Ballmer wanted to become a "tablet and application" company.  In other words, he wanted to be Apple, which is a mistake I think.  I mean, if you want an Apple, you can already buy that, and they kind of have the market on that.  He wanted to get away from just being an operating system company, which I get, but unifying your device operation across platforms just made everyone angry on your established base.  Windows 8, for all the good it has, pisses off a lot of people with the lack of familiar desktop start menu in order to try to homogenize the experience with your portable devices.  You didn't really increase your mobile usage at the expense of irritating your traditional base.

2) While the Surface Pro is by all accounts an awesome system that everyone I know that has one absolutely loves (see also:   Mike Krahulik of Penny Arcade's self review of the thing).  If I hadn't JUST bought a new ultrabook for editing my photos right before it was announced, I would have held out for that.  Everything I read says that while it's storage is limited (nothing that can't be fixed with a portable hard drive full of DNGs), it's more than powerful enough and has all the features of a Waccom visual tablet. for editing.

That said, the fact that they released an identical looking but intensely inferior Surface RT really confused the market.  The Pro runs a full version of Windows 8, whose "Metro" menu is infinitely less frustrating on a touch screen/tablet like device, and capable of running anything a normal laptop can run.  The RT, however, is like Microsoft's answer to the iPad, and can only run what you'd find on any mobile platform equivalent.  I think it confused the market, and people that would have heard about how awesome the Surface Pro is instead heard from a friend or a news site how stupid the RT was, and couldn't really tell the difference between the two.  And I can't really blame the average, non-techy person.
3) Most ...


as a microsoft employee who doesn't work in the mobile or tablets, etc divisions....

i think your analysis is largely what everyone in my team thinks.


Makh: I don't know why Microsoft is having trouble, they came out with some of the first tablet computers way back in the day. Clearly, their market research should be the oldest.


we're not good at "we're cool and hip". or marketing.
 
2013-07-28 12:26:08 PM  

Shadowknight: I think their problem is multifold:

1) Ballmer wanted to become a "tablet and application" company.  In other words, he wanted to be Apple, which is a mistake I think.  I mean, if you want an Apple, you can already buy that, and they kind of have the market on that.  He wanted to get away from just being an operating system company, which I get, but unifying your device operation across platforms just made everyone angry on your established base.  Windows 8, for all the good it has, pisses off a lot of people with the lack of familiar desktop start menu in order to try to homogenize the experience with your portable devices.   You didn't really increase your mobile usage at the expense of irritating your traditional base.


As I am currently posting from a Windows 8 Laptop, I can attest to this line in particular. I wanted a farking laptop computer - not a Tablet with a built in keyboard and USB capability. I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps". I hate when it opens up into a new entire-window app to view a photo or a movie, unless I specifically tell it to use VLC media player. I hate when it flips over to the Tiled view randomly and takes 10 seconds to go to the Start icon and then the Desktop tile. I hate having to install a third-party program to get a regular Start Menu. I hate how many hoops I have to jump through to remove passwords on user accounts, to add user accounts and to generally deal with user accounts. I hate when my cursor goes over the edge of the screen and menu's come up - I've got a shiatty mouse that sometimes freezes, then jumps. That's fine on my Windows 7 machine, but drives me nuts on Windows 8, and I hate that the only real fix is to buy a new farking mouse. I hate that it doesn't come with the basic games I've actually grown to love quite a bit - which is a rather petty hate, I know. But you add it all together and I'm not likely to buy a Windows Tablet in the future. Or any Windows products.

The Windows 8 interface may be fabulous on a Tablet, but my experience with a Windows 8 laptop has removed my like for Windows in general. I'm not likely to buy a new PC with a Windows 8 type OS on it, nor am I likely to get a Windows phone when my current Android phone bites the dust. If I'm going to be asked to learn how to run a new OS for my next computer then I'll get a brand new OS, like Linux or if I can afford it, go to Apple. Windows has lost me as an automatic customer.
 
2013-07-28 12:44:25 PM  

Techhell: Windows has lost me as an automatic customer


There's millions of you out there, and it didn't have to be this way.  They threw the baby out with the bath water.  It's exactly like New Coke.
 
2013-07-28 12:54:06 PM  

Kazan: we're not good at "we're cool and hip". or marketing.


I also think not that good with leaving well enough alone and just giving people what they want. I can imagine there were more than a few cringing faces around MS when it was announced that Metro would be on the desktop.
 
2013-07-28 12:55:16 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Techhell: Windows has lost me as an automatic customer

There's millions of you out there, and it didn't have to be this way.  They threw the baby out with the bath water.  It's exactly like New Coke.


I'm sort of hoping it's exactly like New Coke, and we'll get a Windows Classic as Windows 9. I'm actually expecting M$ to double down on the Metro style for all of it's OS's, and losing a large part of the market in people like me; experienced enough to be able to adapt to a new OS but if we're going to be asked to learn a new OS... we're going to want a NEW OS.
 
2013-07-28 12:58:52 PM  

Techhell: we're going to want a NEW OS.


If MS really had it together they'd just let people decide what UI they want to use, just make it an option the first time you run Windows and then have it be something you can change in a control panel any time thereafter. There's zero reason why they couldn't let people do that. Hell there's no reason they couldn't let people just customize the UI to their liking.
 
2013-07-28 01:19:51 PM  

Techhell: I'm sort of hoping it's exactly like New Coke, and we'll get a Windows Classic as Windows 9. I'm actually expecting M$ to double down on the Metro style for all of it's OS's, and losing a large part of the market in people like me; experienced enough to be able to adapt to a new OS but if we're going to be asked to learn a new OS... we're going to want a NEW OS.


What will impact MS's decision I believe is corporate America.  Corp IT is just now moving to Win7 from XP having completely skipped Vista.  We don't want to have to support two radically different OS's and we don't upgrade all of the PC's at once.  Hell it's tough ensuring that all of the legacy apps support the new OS.
 
wee
2013-07-28 01:51:17 PM  

Kazan: we're not good at "we're cool and hip". or marketing.


As long as you have Monkey Boy for a CEO there's little you'll be good at.  Except for maybe embrace, extend and extinguish.

(Seriously: Did anyone see Windows 8 before it shipped?!  That is a farking awful UI...)
 
2013-07-28 01:53:30 PM  
Microsoft's focus on securing Instagram for Windows Phone

i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-28 01:57:07 PM  

wee: Kazan: we're not good at "we're cool and hip". or marketing.

As long as you have Monkey Boy for a CEO there's little you'll be good at.  Except for maybe embrace, extend and extinguish.

(Seriously: Did anyone see Windows 8 before it shipped?!  That is a farking awful UI...)


My bet is that there was someone at M$ who was in charge of screening the replies to the Beta testers of the Win8 UI, and anyone who said "This is awful!" found their input screened out.
 
2013-07-28 01:58:01 PM  
So, they made too many, yet sold them at what, like $699?  These pretentious arseholes deserve to suffer.  They really don't understand that the movie 'antitrust' was about them do they?  You cant bully indy devs into working for you or being sued out of existence, then release things like windows ME and vista, and still expect people to swallow the one thing that kept your insufferable arse alive;  the familiarity of the GUI.

Microsoft is like an abusive husband.  They just aren't going to get it until they are alone and miserable.
 
2013-07-28 02:01:17 PM  
Ignorant son a fa biatchs who pushed out the 'RT' model that without hacking it to be standard windows8, you can only install apps from the app store.

/Its just like the low cost Linux netbooks, that morons couldn't comprehend, all over again.
 
2013-07-28 02:08:24 PM  

Shadowknight: the fact that they released an identical looking but intensely inferior Surface RT really confused the market.


What's confusing? I thought everyone knew the "RT" was short for "retard."

/What was confusing was using the same name as the big-ass table.
 
2013-07-28 02:08:30 PM  

Shadowknight: I think their problem is multifold:

1) Ballmer wanted to become a "tablet and application" company. In other words, he wanted to be Apple, which is a mistake I think. I mean, if you want an Apple, you can already buy that, and they kind of have the market on that. He wanted to get away from just being an operating system company, which I get, but unifying your device operation across platforms just made everyone angry on your established base. Windows 8, for all the good it has, pisses off a lot of people with the lack of familiar desktop start menu in order to try to homogenize the experience with your portable devices. You didn't really increase your mobile usage at the expense of irritating your traditional base.


The sad thing is, a company with an 80% marketshare is desperately trying to follow a company with a 10% marketshare.

That said, Apple did post a gross profit higher than Microsoft last year, so maybe that is what has them freaking out.
 
2013-07-28 02:09:08 PM  

Shadowknight: I think their problem is multifold:

1) Ballmer wanted to become a "tablet and application" company.  In other words, he wanted to be Apple, which is a mistake I think.  I mean, if you want an Apple, you can already buy that, and they kind of have the market on that.  He wanted to get away from just being an operating system company, which I get, but unifying your device operation across platforms just made everyone angry on your established base.   Windows 8, for all the good it has, pisses off a lot of people with the lack of familiar desktop start menu in order to try to homogenize the experience with your portable devices.  You didn't really increase your mobile usage at the expense of irritating your traditional base.

2) While the Surface Pro is by all accounts an awesome system that everyone I know that has one absolutely loves (see also:   Mike Krahulik of Penny Arcade's self review of the thing).  If I hadn't JUST bought a new ultrabook for editing my photos right before it was announced, I would have held out for that.  Everything I read says that while it's storage is limited (nothing that can't be fixed with a portable hard drive full of DNGs), it's more than powerful enough and has all the features of a Waccom visual tablet. for editing.

That said, the fact that they released an identical looking but intensely inferior Surface RT really confused the market.  The Pro runs a full version of Windows 8, whose "Metro" menu is infinitely less frustrating on a touch screen/tablet like device, and capable of running anything a normal laptop can run.  The RT, however, is like Microsoft's answer to the iPad, and can only run what you'd find on any mobile platform equivalent.  I think it confused the market, and people that would have heard about how awesome the Surface Pro is instead heard from a friend or a news site how stupid the RT was, and couldn't really tell the difference between the two.  And I can't really blame the average, non-techy person.  
3) Most ...


I think they would have been better off marketing it differently.  Make it 7.5, and sell it concurrently with 7.  Give people a choice, and continue it: 8 with 8.5, and so forth.
 
2013-07-28 02:11:28 PM  

Techhell: Shadowknight: I think their problem is multifold:

1) Ballmer wanted to become a "tablet and application" company.  In other words, he wanted to be Apple, which is a mistake I think.  I mean, if you want an Apple, you can already buy that, and they kind of have the market on that.  He wanted to get away from just being an operating system company, which I get, but unifying your device operation across platforms just made everyone angry on your established base.  Windows 8, for all the good it has, pisses off a lot of people with the lack of familiar desktop start menu in order to try to homogenize the experience with your portable devices.   You didn't really increase your mobile usage at the expense of irritating your traditional base.

As I am currently posting from a Windows 8 Laptop, I can attest to this line in particular. I wanted a farking laptop computer - not a Tablet with a built in keyboard and USB capability. I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps". I hate when it opens up into a new entire-window app to view a photo or a movie, unless I specifically tell it to use VLC media player. I hate when it flips over to the Tiled view randomly and takes 10 seconds to go to the Start icon and then the Desktop tile. I hate having to install a third-party program to get a regular Start Menu. I hate how many hoops I have to jump through to remove passwords on user accounts, to add user accounts and to generally deal with user accounts. I hate when my cursor goes over the edge of the screen and menu's come up - I've got a shiatty mouse that sometimes freezes, then jumps. That's fine on my Windows 7 machine, but drives me nuts on Windows 8, and I hate that the only real fix is to buy a new farking mouse. I hate that it doesn't come with the basic games I've actually grown to love quite a bit - which is a rather petty hate, I know. But you add it all together and I'm not likely to buy a Windows Tablet in the future. Or any Windows products.

The Windows 8 inte ...


Ahhem. Stardock has you covered. Downloaded Stardock's Start8 and a couple of other apps, most notably one that forces full-screen apps to run just like every other app, and couldn't be happier. And I switched TO this from a Mac.
 
2013-07-28 02:15:04 PM  
The most hilarious part is their announcement of bringing back the start menu but it just opens the Metro screen instead and not the classic start menu.. Maximum Trolling
 
2013-07-28 02:16:38 PM  

Bravo Two: Techhell: Shadowknight: I think their problem is multifold:

1) Ballmer wanted to become a "tablet and application" company.  In other words, he wanted to be Apple, which is a mistake I think.  I mean, if you want an Apple, you can already buy that, and they kind of have the market on that.  He wanted to get away from just being an operating system company, which I get, but unifying your device operation across platforms just made everyone angry on your established base.  Windows 8, for all the good it has, pisses off a lot of people with the lack of familiar desktop start menu in order to try to homogenize the experience with your portable devices.   You didn't really increase your mobile usage at the expense of irritating your traditional base.

As I am currently posting from a Windows 8 Laptop, I can attest to this line in particular. I wanted a farking laptop computer - not a Tablet with a built in keyboard and USB capability. I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps". I hate when it opens up into a new entire-window app to view a photo or a movie, unless I specifically tell it to use VLC media player. I hate when it flips over to the Tiled view randomly and takes 10 seconds to go to the Start icon and then the Desktop tile. I hate having to install a third-party program to get a regular Start Menu. I hate how many hoops I have to jump through to remove passwords on user accounts, to add user accounts and to generally deal with user accounts. I hate when my cursor goes over the edge of the screen and menu's come up - I've got a shiatty mouse that sometimes freezes, then jumps. That's fine on my Windows 7 machine, but drives me nuts on Windows 8, and I hate that the only real fix is to buy a new farking mouse. I hate that it doesn't come with the basic games I've actually grown to love quite a bit - which is a rather petty hate, I know. But you add it all together and I'm not likely to buy a Windows Tablet in the future. Or any Windows products.

The Wind ...


There are a ton of free ones.. I prefer this one:  http://www.classicshell.net/
 
2013-07-28 02:19:28 PM  

styckx: There are a ton of free ones.. I prefer this one: http://www.classicshell.net/


Yeah, I just prefer the Stardock app bundle because I already owned it for WindowBlinds and Fences back on Win 7 on my Mac's bootcamp part.
 
2013-07-28 02:20:54 PM  

Bravo Two: styckx: There are a ton of free ones.. I prefer this one: http://www.classicshell.net/

Yeah, I just prefer the Stardock app bundle because I already owned it for WindowBlinds and Fences back on Win 7 on my Mac's bootcamp part.


I'd love to know the revenue Stardock made on Start8..  It's like Microsoft just said "Here you go Stardock.. Free money"
 
2013-07-28 02:21:10 PM  

Kazan: Shadowknight: I think their problem is multifold:

1) Ballmer wanted to become a "tablet and application" company.  In other words, he wanted to be Apple, which is a mistake I think.  I mean, if you want an Apple, you can already buy that, and they kind of have the market on that.  He wanted to get away from just being an operating system company, which I get, but unifying your device operation across platforms just made everyone angry on your established base.  Windows 8, for all the good it has, pisses off a lot of people with the lack of familiar desktop start menu in order to try to homogenize the experience with your portable devices.  You didn't really increase your mobile usage at the expense of irritating your traditional base.

2) While the Surface Pro is by all accounts an awesome system that everyone I know that has one absolutely loves (see also:   Mike Krahulik of Penny Arcade's self review of the thing).  If I hadn't JUST bought a new ultrabook for editing my photos right before it was announced, I would have held out for that.  Everything I read says that while it's storage is limited (nothing that can't be fixed with a portable hard drive full of DNGs), it's more than powerful enough and has all the features of a Waccom visual tablet. for editing.

That said, the fact that they released an identical looking but intensely inferior Surface RT really confused the market.  The Pro runs a full version of Windows 8, whose "Metro" menu is infinitely less frustrating on a touch screen/tablet like device, and capable of running anything a normal laptop can run.  The RT, however, is like Microsoft's answer to the iPad, and can only run what you'd find on any mobile platform equivalent.  I think it confused the market, and people that would have heard about how awesome the Surface Pro is instead heard from a friend or a news site how stupid the RT was, and couldn't really tell the difference between the two.  And I can't really blame the average, non-techy pers ...


I'm not going to pile on you for the Windows 8 fiasco, the underlying OS is great, and the Metro GUI is nice enough for tablets and phones, but we desktop users really, really, need Microsoft to listen to us and get back to the efficient desktop UI that Microsoft evolved and refined for 30 years.

As an enterprise developer (and somebody with apps in the mobile markets and also has over a decade of embedded systems experience), I understand the reasoning behind force-feeding its base the Metro "experience" - but it was a misguided failure to create a walled garden and universal ecosystem. Tablets and phones are not consoles, and those are not desktops... three different worlds require three different UIs.

/Words cannot express the wailing and gnashing of teeth by our sys admins over the latest Windows Server OSes.
 
2013-07-28 02:23:42 PM  

styckx: Bravo Two: styckx: There are a ton of free ones.. I prefer this one: http://www.classicshell.net/

Yeah, I just prefer the Stardock app bundle because I already owned it for WindowBlinds and Fences back on Win 7 on my Mac's bootcamp part.

I'd love to know the revenue Stardock made on Start8..  It's like Microsoft just said "Here you go Stardock.. Free money"


yeah. I've actually gotten to where I like the Windows start page, with the appropriate tweaks. However, Fences 2 and ModernMix are necessary apps for Win8.
 
2013-07-28 02:24:51 PM  

styckx: The most hilarious part is their announcement of bringing back the start menu but it just opens the Metro screen instead and not the classic start menu.. Maximum Trolling


Yup, just a terrible way for Microsoft to announce to the world that they have their ears firmly plugged, yelling " LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!! LA LA LA"
 
wee
2013-07-28 02:26:27 PM  

LesserEvil: the Metro GUI is nice enough for tablets and phones


No, it is not.  It's a farking retarded abomination on any device.

Every time I have to use Windows Server 2012 I think about updating my resume...
 
2013-07-28 02:30:39 PM  
Again since last week. Sorry but fark Instagram. WP have Instance and Hipsamatic which Instgram 3rd party apps that are better than Instgram on other mobile OS's. They should focus on getting rid of the "Other" bug in WP and in W8 making the damn Start screen lock/pin to a second monitor when using dual monitors. The Surface RT should have been $249 with the touch or type cover from the farking get go.
 
2013-07-28 02:35:09 PM  
Having used Win 8 for a while and now Win 8.1, I kind of like Metro now (even for desktop). With Surface RT I think they never really gave people enough compelling reason to buy one over an iPad. The people who would want Office on their tablet probably already had a laptop or could buy a Surface Pro, and these people also would need Outlook (which is part of the 8.1 update, but wasn't available in original Surface RT).
 
2013-07-28 02:35:52 PM  

wee: No, it is not. It's a farking retarded abomination on any device.


I disagree. If they put Metro on devices slowly no one would complain e.g Xbox 360
 
2013-07-28 02:42:08 PM  
Shadowknight:

And, let's face it, customer loyalty to them is pretty high among the Apple faithful.  They could announce the next iPhone would give you electric shocks every time in rings instead of vibrating, and a very large amount of their customers would laud it as revolutionary and burn another tribute to Steve Jobs.

A pretty good analysis until you got lazy or tired at the end there, and trotted out the old "Apple fans will buy anything" line. This lame propaganda comes straight from the marketing department of another company. Here's a hint: it's a company that's so bad at creating customer loyalty that they think there's something strange going on when people who bought an Apple product actually want to go back and buy another!
 
2013-07-28 02:53:50 PM  
Has anyone figured a way to keep that annoying side menu on Windows 8 from sliding out randomly? There are days I want to throw my laptop through a wall for doing that. And Start8 doesn't help.
 
2013-07-28 02:57:37 PM  
Does anyone know of a program that allows me to remap keyboard shortcuts in Windows? I hate the fact that some tasks are Ctrl+, some are Alt+, and some are Win+.
 
2013-07-28 02:58:03 PM  

SCUBA_Archer: Has anyone figured a way to keep that annoying side menu on Windows 8 from sliding out randomly? There are days I want to throw my laptop through a wall for doing that. And Start8 doesn't help.


Are you serious ? You might want to save all your shiat and do a factory reset or a clean install.
 
2013-07-28 02:59:49 PM  

bingethinker: Shadowknight:

And, let's face it, customer loyalty to them is pretty high among the Apple faithful.  They could announce the next iPhone would give you electric shocks every time in rings instead of vibrating, and a very large amount of their customers would laud it as revolutionary and burn another tribute to Steve Jobs.

A pretty good analysis until you got lazy or tired at the end there, and trotted out the old "Apple fans will buy anything" line. This lame propaganda comes straight from the marketing department of another company. Here's a hint: it's a company that's so bad at creating customer loyalty that they think there's something strange going on when people who bought an Apple product actually want to go back and buy another!


What do you mean "Apple fans will buy anything"?  Apple fans CAN'T buy anything - their credit cards are already maxxed out.
 
2013-07-28 03:05:20 PM  
Look, a huge part of the problem is that a vast section of the market regards MS as wildly incompetent -- because they've never turned out a really good version of Windows. With every new version, they change things that weren't broken, fail to fix things that were broken, and add a ton of chrome and glass that no one particularly wanted.

Most of those customers kept buying Windows because they didn't want to try switching to Apple or Linux, which they didn't see as realistic, palatable alternatives. They hated MS, hated Windows every day, but figured they were stuck.

MS cannot lure those people to a new product that has competition that the customers will see as palatable. So they can't launch something into the tablet market and hope to capture them. A huge proportion of MS customers have no faith in MS. MS earned that position, and now they're suffering for it.

Believe me, I know a TON of people who will never 'upgrade' from XP. Never. They will jump to Apple or give in and do the work to switch to Mint or something rather than suffer through Windows 8. Windows 9, even if by some miracle it's decent, will probably arrive too late to grab those people. Win 3.1 was pretty good, and XP was pretty good, and they don't think MS will even top them -- because they think MS is generally going to turn out crap and claim it's cupcakes.

So MS is not going to sell them Surface tablets, no. They'll buy something else because there are attractive alternatives. IBM went through this a long time ago, and it's just plainly stupid that MS acts like they couldn't have seen it coming. Many people simply feel like they no longer have to buy MS products -- and they won't.
 
2013-07-28 03:05:47 PM  

drjekel_mrhyde: SCUBA_Archer: Has anyone figured a way to keep that annoying side menu on Windows 8 from sliding out randomly? There are days I want to throw my laptop through a wall for doing that. And Start8 doesn't help.

Are you serious ? You might want to save all your shiat and do a factory reset or a clean install.


I've got the exact same problem; often it's my mouse that farks up, but regularly the right-side and bottom menus will pop out randomly. It's so common with my laptop that I've actually stopped noticing it and just move my mouse unconsciously when the menus pop out. It's part of my hatred for those damned pop-out menus.
 
2013-07-28 03:15:19 PM  

wee: LesserEvil: the Metro GUI is nice enough for tablets and phones

No, it is not.  It's a farking retarded abomination on any device.

Every time I have to use Windows Server 2012 I think about updating my resume...


I have training coming up for win 2012. Not looking forward to it. Can't think of a single benefit from the metro ui on a freaking server. I don't even like short cuts on server dtops. Tiles are going to make my blood boil. But I'm still pissed off that I'm forced to have a Web browser on a server OS.
 
2013-07-28 03:17:07 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Kazan: we're not good at "we're cool and hip". or marketing.

I also think not that good with leaving well enough alone and just giving people what they want. I can imagine there were more than a few cringing faces around MS when it was announced that Metro would be on the desktop.


cringing? we were raging.

wee: Kazan: we're not good at "we're cool and hip". or marketing.

As long as you have Monkey Boy for a CEO there's little you'll be good at.  Except for maybe embrace, extend and extinguish.

(Seriously: Did anyone see Windows 8 before it shipped?!  That is a farking awful UI...)


on touch is a pretty nice UI. on anything else i hate it with the intensity of a thousand stars.

LesserEvil: /Words cannot express the wailing and gnashing of teeth by our sys admins over the latest Windows Server OSes.


just use powershell. again it is a bad UI on a great great upgrade. I work on Failover Clustering.
 
2013-07-28 03:20:59 PM  
Every tablet that's gone up against the iPad for the same price has been a failure. Motorola, Samsung, Blackberry and HTC have all found out the people with iPad money buy iPads*. Now Microsoft can be added to the list.

The only way to sell tablets is to be cheaper than the iPad. Amazon knows this and google knows this and they had sold container loads of tablets. If Microsoft had priced the entry RT at £300 and used it as a way of locking people into the Windows 8 ecosystem then they would have sold lots of them as well. Break even on the hardware and make the money from apps and phones as you can charge higher prices for phones as the price is hidden in the contract.


*only people with specialist demands like geeks will buy other tablets at iPad money and they are a tiny market.
 
2013-07-28 03:28:33 PM  

wee: LesserEvil: the Metro GUI is nice enough for tablets and phones

No, it is not. It's a farking retarded abomination on any device.


On a phone Metro is good. The tiles idea works very well as a way to have information updated live onscreen without having to open the app. I think it works better than Andriods widgets and far ahead of iOS6. The only issue i have is not being able to set a wallpaper.

/Nokia Lumia, iPad and Windows 7 laptop
//Used to have a HTC Desire S
 
2013-07-28 03:30:02 PM  

jso2897: bingethinker: Shadowknight:

And, let's face it, customer loyalty to them is pretty high among the Apple faithful.  They could announce the next iPhone would give you electric shocks every time in rings instead of vibrating, and a very large amount of their customers would laud it as revolutionary and burn another tribute to Steve Jobs.

A pretty good analysis until you got lazy or tired at the end there, and trotted out the old "Apple fans will buy anything" line. This lame propaganda comes straight from the marketing department of another company. Here's a hint: it's a company that's so bad at creating customer loyalty that they think there's something strange going on when people who bought an Apple product actually want to go back and buy another!

What do you mean "Apple fans will buy anything"?  Apple fans CAN'T buy anything - their credit cards are already maxxed out.


Sorry, this meme does not allow for reality. The iHaters aren't big on logic or common sense.
 
2013-07-28 03:34:52 PM  

wee: LesserEvil: the Metro GUI is nice enough for tablets and phones

No, it is not.  It's a farking retarded abomination on any device.

Every time I have to use Windows Server 2012 I think about updating my resume...


*backhands wee*

Seriously. Enough whining about an interface change. If you can't manage the enlargement of some buttons or a slight change in UI paradigm, you don't deserve to be working in the IT/CS field. You just. farking. don't. Slide on your damn big boy pants.

That being said, they should have priced the Surface RT cheaper, and introduced a "mid-line" Surface based on the Atom processor at about $500-$700. My girlfriend just received one of the Surface RT's cousins, an Asus VivoTab RT, as a gift from her parents. After spending the better part of the last year trying to make her 2010-vintage Dell Studio laptop work again (she managed to crack the hinges, wear out a trackpad button, and drop a book on the "v" key... LOTS of hardware surgery on that unit), I'm glad she gets a dumbed-down version of Windows. No longer will I have to look at her "Programs and Features" list, ask her how (x) piece of malware got on the machine, and hear "I wanted to watch (y) show so I downloaded that from site (z)." Not only does she have the Windows Store (which has bulked up over the last few months), but the binaries for all of that crapware won't even run on the machine.

It's beautiful, really. Half-tempted to get my father to get one for my mother, who often has the same lack of pure common sense problems. Takes some responsibility off of my shoulders. If they had offered the RT tablets for the $350 they are now at the beginning, they'd have had a real success on their hands.
 
2013-07-28 03:35:58 PM  
nor am I likely to get a Windows phone

my son loves his Windows phone and how it syncs with our PC and his XBox
 
2013-07-28 03:35:58 PM  

Norfolking Chance: Every tablet that's gone up against the iPad for the same price has been a failure. Motorola, Samsung, Blackberry and HTC have all found out the people with iPad money buy iPads*. Now Microsoft can be added to the list.

The only way to sell tablets is to be cheaper than the iPad. Amazon knows this and google knows this and they had sold container loads of tablets. If Microsoft had priced the entry RT at £300 and used it as a way of locking people into the Windows 8 ecosystem then they would have sold lots of them as well. Break even on the hardware and make the money from apps and phones as you can charge higher prices for phones as the price is hidden in the contract.


*only people with specialist demands like geeks will buy other tablets at iPad money and they are a tiny market.


You forgot to mention HP's Touchpad fiasco. Part of that was Leo Apotheker's own mental blockage with his hatred towards hardware, but in large part it was due to HP's delay in launching their cellular-based version (with GPS and 64GB) to get a bump from subsidized sales. The expectation was to match Apple's iPad sales numbers (laughable goal, really), and Leo put the kibash on it quickly - too quickly; it was clear it was doomed form the start.

Still, the lesson was there - nobody could compete with the iPad at the same price point with similar hardware. Little things, like SD slots and true USB ports also matter. Reality is that price matters the most. Apple fans are willing to spend an 60% price premium for the brand. They trust the build quality and service, and they have much deeper loyalty. What loyalty did HP have? They spent most of it by churning out lackluster printers with spotty quality, and creating an "economy" brand out of Compaq with the same quality issues, for a decade.

Except for the Zune Tattoo Guy, Microsoft doesn't have nearly the same fanatical fan base as Apple. Actually, "fanatical" is not how I'd describe even their most loyal users. They are more likely just used to the software and sticking with it - which is why Vista, and even more so, Win8 has pushed so many away. The base customers loyal to Microsoft don't like seeing things change drastically - mess with that aspect and they'll have no reason to stick around, particularly if there is something else that is more popular (as in, the iPad for tablet computing or the iPhone for mobile) obtainable for the same money or even less.

/Yes, I do work for HP... getting kick and all that.
 
2013-07-28 03:39:52 PM  
Marine1: Enough whining about an interface change.

You don't really understand the concept of 'the customer', much less the point of 'the user'.
 
2013-07-28 03:43:37 PM  

Norfolking Chance: Every tablet that's gone up against the iPad for the same price has been a failure. Motorola, Samsung, Blackberry and HTC have all found out the people with iPad money buy iPads*. Now Microsoft can be added to the list.

The only way to sell tablets is to be cheaper than the iPad. Amazon knows this and google knows this and they had sold container loads of tablets. If Microsoft had priced the entry RT at £300 and used it as a way of locking people into the Windows 8 ecosystem then they would have sold lots of them as well. Break even on the hardware and make the money from apps and phones as you can charge higher prices for phones as the price is hidden in the contract.


*only people with specialist demands like geeks will buy other tablets at iPad money and they are a tiny market.

 
2013-07-28 03:46:15 PM  

RandomAxe: Marine1: Enough whining about an interface change.

You don't really understand the concept of 'the customer', much less the point of 'the user'.


And they don't understand the concept of 'progress', much less 'development headaches'. They're the same people who will ask, 'Why do I need to upgrade my Windows XP laptop? It does everything I need just fine", then come to you whining about how it won't run the latest programs and is full of more security holes than Swiss cheese.

If Apple had introduced it, people would hail it as a major advancement. I've been using it on my desktop since launch day. There's nothing wrong with it. If you can figure out managing a computer from the CLI, you have the mental horsepower to adjust to Windows 8. If you don't, quit your job and start cleaning bathrooms at the local hourly-rate motel. I'm far from the most capable power user I know, and if I can figure it out as an undergrad in an IT program, anyone can.
 
2013-07-28 03:52:42 PM  

RandomAxe: Marine1: Enough whining about an interface change.

You don't really understand the concept of 'the customer', much less the point of 'the user'.


Metro was tested on the "customer" in 2011 with the Xbox dash board update and it was no big OMG what is that
 
2013-07-28 04:05:21 PM  
I'd get the Pro, but it's not in my price range. I'm more interested in a barebones PC for Linux.

If they made more of the RTs, and priced them lower, then people would have bought them.

/we make it up in volume!
 
2013-07-28 04:16:12 PM  
acousticmonster.com

/runs
 
2013-07-28 04:23:51 PM  

blue_2501: [acousticmonster.com image 400x425]

/runs


What's the real joke is that Android(HTC One) and Apple mobile OS's are now getting that same flat design
 
2013-07-28 04:26:44 PM  
Marine1: And they don't understand the concept of 'progress', much less 'development headaches'.

I don't think the problem isn't that they don't understand 'progress' but that they want 'progress' to be a good thing, not just whatever's next. And development ought to benefit the user according to the user's preferences, not merely against their will. Sometimes developers know what's good for the user better than the user does. Often, developers don't. The user interface is the province of the user. It's right in the name.

If Apple had introduced it, people would hail it as a major advancement.

Some people would, sure. That has no bearing on whether or not it was actually an improvement.
 
2013-07-28 04:28:25 PM  

sammyk: But I'm still pissed off that I'm forced to have a Web browser on a server OS.


You've had over 10 years to switch to Linux.  It's your fault (or your company's) that you're still using Windows for all of this crap.

Windows Server - Slower because of the GUI, not as effective, less scripting involved to make life easier, Remote Desktop sucks in comparison to SSH, less open-source applications (which force you to pay for everything through the nose), many of the apps (like IIS) are inferior to the OSS versions (like Apache).

Linux Server - Solves all of that.

About the only thing Windows Server really has going for it is Exchange + Sharepoint, and Google is slowly chipping away that advantage away with cloud services.  (Not saying that it's better, but it's slowly getting there.)
 
2013-07-28 04:28:28 PM  
drjekel_mrhyde: Metro was tested on the "customer" in 2011 with the Xbox dash board update and it was no big OMG what is that

And my car operates using a steering wheel instead of a keyboard. Neither of these facts has anything to do with a good user interface for a personal computer. Of course, since MS seems to think a desktop computer is the same as a phone, I can imagine them getting an Xbox and a PC confused, too.
 
2013-07-28 04:31:21 PM  

Techhell: drjekel_mrhyde: SCUBA_Archer: Has anyone figured a way to keep that annoying side menu on Windows 8 from sliding out randomly? There are days I want to throw my laptop through a wall for doing that. And Start8 doesn't help.

Are you serious ? You might want to save all your shiat and do a factory reset or a clean install.

I've got the exact same problem; often it's my mouse that farks up, but regularly the right-side and bottom menus will pop out randomly. It's so common with my laptop that I've actually stopped noticing it and just move my mouse unconsciously when the menus pop out. It's part of my hatred for those damned pop-out menus.


With Classic Shell you go to Settings, Windows 8 Settings and under Disable Active Corners tick All. Done.
 
2013-07-28 04:32:37 PM  

SCUBA_Archer: Has anyone figured a way to keep that annoying side menu on Windows 8 from sliding out randomly? There are days I want to throw my laptop through a wall for doing that. And Start8 doesn't help.


Replied to the wrong person. See reply above with Classic Shell. Which is free BTW.
 
2013-07-28 04:34:24 PM  
I think it's so dumb that this won't work using RT.

connect.customer.mcgraw-hill.com
 
2013-07-28 04:37:57 PM  

Marine1: RandomAxe: Marine1: Enough whining about an interface change.

You don't really understand the concept of 'the customer', much less the point of 'the user'.

And they don't understand the concept of 'progress', much less 'development headaches'. They're the same people who will ask, 'Why do I need to upgrade my Windows XP laptop? It does everything I need just fine", then come to you whining about how it won't run the latest programs and is full of more security holes than Swiss cheese.

If Apple had introduced it, people would hail it as a major advancement. I've been using it on my desktop since launch day. There's nothing wrong with it. If you can figure out managing a computer from the CLI, you have the mental horsepower to adjust to Windows 8. If you don't, quit your job and start cleaning bathrooms at the local hourly-rate motel. I'm far from the most capable power user I know, and if I can figure it out as an undergrad in an IT program, anyone can.


"Progress" isn't taking 30 years of UI research and throwing it out in favor of one unifying UI across desktop, touch and game systems.

There are some very established and respected experts in the user interface field who will tell you the Metro UI on the desktop is a disaster.

I don't really need that, though, I have fellow developers on my team, and my own personal experience with Windows 8 to know it is far less productive than standard desktop UIs for THAT form of computing.

As I said before, Metro is fine as a mobile platform, but it fails when the primary input device is not touch*. Gestures have no place in non-touch computing. Good user interface design takes into account the primary means of input, and Microsoft violated that in the rush to push an agenda.... As I also stated, I understand their reasons for doing so, but it was a bad gamble that has not paid off. Marine1, you are in the minority of Windows 8 users - there will always be people who will "like" something most people don't - NTTAWWT (Bronies, Furries, fetishists, etc...) - most of us who spend 12~15 hours a day pounding out work on a PC find the Modern/Metro UI makes us less effective and less productive, no matter how long we tried to stick with it. Some of my fellow developers even started out liking the "freshness" of the Metro UI, and now loathe it.

I'm not even delving into the budget needed to train users and support personnel in large enterprise environments for the completely different UI, or all the gotchas associated with administrating Windows 8 and the walled garden (which if done RIGHT, could have been worthwhile)

Desktop UIs should not rely (primarily) on gestures or hidden controls (popouts when 'hovering'). Metro starts out of the gate breaking those two inviolate commandments. Yes, we know there are those funky key commands... but what is the point of a GUI if we are back to keyboard shortcuts for everything? I might as well as fire up DOS and compose documents in WordStar. Maybe dig out a keyboard overlay so I can remember yet more unintuitive nonsense to get my daily work done?

img2u.info

*I'll qualify that to say that touch could include Kinect
 
2013-07-28 04:38:06 PM  

SCUBA_Archer: Has anyone figured a way to keep that annoying side menu on Windows 8 from sliding out randomly? There are days I want to throw my laptop through a wall for doing that. And Start8 doesn't help.


Don't mouse into the upper right hand corner?
 
2013-07-28 04:38:35 PM  

Kazan: cringing? we were raging.


That actually doesn't surprise me. Nor does the fact that no one really listened.
 
2013-07-28 04:40:15 PM  

LesserEvil: Marine1: RandomAxe: Marine1: Enough whining about an interface change.

You don't really understand the concept of 'the customer', much less the point of 'the user'.

And they don't understand the concept of 'progress', much less 'development headaches'. They're the same people who will ask, 'Why do I need to upgrade my Windows XP laptop? It does everything I need just fine", then come to you whining about how it won't run the latest programs and is full of more security holes than Swiss cheese.

If Apple had introduced it, people would hail it as a major advancement. I've been using it on my desktop since launch day. There's nothing wrong with it. If you can figure out managing a computer from the CLI, you have the mental horsepower to adjust to Windows 8. If you don't, quit your job and start cleaning bathrooms at the local hourly-rate motel. I'm far from the most capable power user I know, and if I can figure it out as an undergrad in an IT program, anyone can.

"Progress" isn't taking 30 years of UI research and throwing it out in favor of one unifying UI across desktop, touch and game systems.

There are some very established and respected experts in the user interface field who will tell you the Metro UI on the desktop is a disaster.

I don't really need that, though, I have fellow developers on my team, and my own personal experience with Windows 8 to know it is far less productive than standard desktop UIs for THAT form of computing.

As I said before, Metro is fine as a mobile platform, but it fails when the primary input device is not touch*. Gestures have no place in non-touch computing. Good user interface design takes into account the primary means of input, and Microsoft violated that in the rush to push an agenda.... As I also stated, I understand their reasons for doing so, but it was a bad gamble that has not paid off. Marine1, you are in the minority of Windows 8 users - there will always be people who will "like" something most people don't - NTTA ...




Metro is great for kids.

Netflix is great for kids.

Kids, kids, kids.
 
2013-07-28 04:45:15 PM  

Bravo Two: SCUBA_Archer: Has anyone figured a way to keep that annoying side menu on Windows 8 from sliding out randomly? There are days I want to throw my laptop through a wall for doing that. And Start8 doesn't help.

Don't mouse into the upper right hand corner?


Where the close button for an app is.....

Microsoft should have a means of changing this, like the stupid "auto-docking" feature in Windows 7, where you can at least go into the control panel and turn it off (which is the first thing I do when installing Win7).
 
2013-07-28 04:45:20 PM  
LesserEvil: Desktop UIs should not rely (primarily) on gestures or hidden controls (popouts when 'hovering').

Yes, exactly. Frankly, the Windows interface's functionality has gone downhill since the disappearance of Program Manager. And keyboard support has gotten worse continually since Win95. Customizability of the UI has gone downhill for several versions now, too. It's flat-out amateurish and embarrassing.

This from the company that used to mock other software companies for non-WYSIWYG interfaces.
 
2013-07-28 04:46:46 PM  
I loved my mac, but I hated that apple, once making excellent hardware with fairly cutting edge equipment, was way behind where I could get an equivalent PC at, for much less (yes, I know that Apple has a huge name tax on it).

Right now, Windows neither helps, nor hinders, save for a fairly awkward system for which it switches between the NVidia GPU and the Intel integrated GPU.

If I could get Linux to run as smoothly as Mac OS X, and run all the Apps and Games I have for Windows, I'd be happy.
 
2013-07-28 04:48:14 PM  

LesserEvil: Bravo Two: SCUBA_Archer: Has anyone figured a way to keep that annoying side menu on Windows 8 from sliding out randomly? There are days I want to throw my laptop through a wall for doing that. And Start8 doesn't help.

Don't mouse into the upper right hand corner?

Where the close button for an app is.....

Microsoft should have a means of changing this, like the stupid "auto-docking" feature in Windows 7, where you can at least go into the control panel and turn it off (which is the first thing I do when installing Win7).


So, you could just google and turn off the hot corners...

http://www.askvg.com/how-to-disable-hot-corners-charms-bar-start-scr ee n-thumbnail-app-switch-list-in-windows-8/
 
wee
2013-07-28 04:50:50 PM  

sammyk: Tiles are going to make my blood boil


Or you move the mouse to the left and get some bullshiat menu that does nothing.  Or move your mouse too far right and get the exact same bullshiat menu that does nothing.  Or you click Server Manager ALL THE GODDAM TIME. Or a hundred other reasons why the UI sucks giant donkey nuts.

Windows 8/Server 2012 is giant pile of steaming shiat and the high-functioning moron who decided to put that absolutely awful UI on a friggin' server out to be banned from ever holding a job involving computers.

blue_2501: You've had over 10 years to switch to Linux. It's your fault (or your company's) that you're still using Windows for all of this crap.


We develop stats applications for linux and windows.  Some of customers have no clue and decide to use windows as a server OS, so we get the joy of supporting that.  It sucks switching the kvm from Xfce to Server 2012 and seeing that FIsher Price garbage.
 
2013-07-28 04:58:28 PM  

Bravo Two: LesserEvil: Bravo Two: SCUBA_Archer: Has anyone figured a way to keep that annoying side menu on Windows 8 from sliding out randomly? There are days I want to throw my laptop through a wall for doing that. And Start8 doesn't help.

Don't mouse into the upper right hand corner?

Where the close button for an app is.....

Microsoft should have a means of changing this, like the stupid "auto-docking" feature in Windows 7, where you can at least go into the control panel and turn it off (which is the first thing I do when installing Win7).

So, you could just google and turn off the hot corners...

http://www.askvg.com/how-to-disable-hot-corners-charms-bar-start-scr ee n-thumbnail-app-switch-list-in-windows-8/


I could. Heh.

One more setting the default needs to be changed on to make the OS functional. I also activate the "QuickLaunch" toolbar when I do a new install. Who needs a Start Screen? I have 64 pixels along the bottom of my desktop that gives me access to 40+ of my most used apps, and pins on my task bar for the 10 or 15 top apps.

Much like VisualStudio 2012, with their dumbass "ALL CAPS MENUS" screaming at me, which demands a registry edit to fix, and the missing Macro Explorer (I haven't the foggiest idea why MS removed that, but our group had to create our own macro processor to get it "back")... oh, and let's not forget monochrome toolbar icons, because we Windows users really HATE beautiful colored icons that we have grown used to over last decade. I just love it when you can't tell if an icon is disabled or just "bleh" and I prefer not having additional visual clues to let me locate the icon quickly.
 
2013-07-28 05:10:21 PM  
Ultimately, technology companies don't grow by pissing off their core geek audiences.
 
2013-07-28 05:11:31 PM  

RandomAxe: drjekel_mrhyde: Metro was tested on the "customer" in 2011 with the Xbox dash board update and it was no big OMG what is that

And my car operates using a steering wheel instead of a keyboard. Neither of these facts has anything to do with a good user interface for a personal computer. Of course, since MS seems to think a desktop computer is the same as a phone, I can imagine them getting an Xbox and a PC confused, too.


Xbox and PS3 are pretty much PCs
They next gen of both are in fact PC's so I can't wait for "OMG this  puter" from the slow folks
/For shiats and giggles Microsoft should throw a Office app on the Xbox One
 
2013-07-28 05:22:12 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Kazan: cringing? we were raging.

That actually doesn't surprise me. Nor does the fact that no one really listened.


its what happens when execs hold on to an idea like a dog with a bone
 
2013-07-28 05:43:56 PM  
There is more than one answer to Windows 8. All of them superior.

1. Windows 7
2. OS X
3. Android
4. Windows XP
 
2013-07-28 05:45:48 PM  
Everyone biatches about getting to the desktop being too difficult.  Is Windows-M too hard for everyone to do?
 
2013-07-28 06:11:38 PM  

mjbok: Everyone biatches about getting to the desktop being too difficult.  Is Windows-M too hard for everyone to do?


Nobody says "too difficult to do" and I already addressed the stupid keyboard shortcut thing.

People that hate Windows 8 base that on the fact that it is LESS PRODUCTIVE. Part of that it the counter-intuitive UI cues that, while needed on a small mobile screen and somewhat useful on a touch input device, make no sense whatsoever on a desktop PC.

Mobile devices are not desktop PCs. This is a very simple concept, and I'm amazed at the apologists that come out of the woodwork to defend Microsoft (and not surprised at all that Microsoft's own developers were not happy with Metro on the desktop). Maybe Microsoft does have some fanatics.... mjbok, you don't happen to have a Zune tattoo, do you?
 
2013-07-28 06:12:08 PM  
this is my start screen

i.imgur.com

this is my desktop

i.imgur.com

This is the worst shiat I have ever seen. It's so hard to use. It sucks so farking bad that I am going to go sit in the corner and slit my kneecaps.

I can't take it anymore.
 
2013-07-28 06:14:21 PM  

Techhell: I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps"... blah blah blah



You might have a better argument going for you if you could do me a small favor and explain to me why I have never had ANY of the farking problems that you are having with Windows 8.
 
2013-07-28 06:33:18 PM  

RandomAxe: Look, a huge part of the problem is that a vast section of the market regards MS as wildly incompetent -- because they've never turned out a really good version of Windows. With every new version, they change things that weren't broken, fail to fix things that were broken, and add a ton of chrome and glass that no one particularly wanted.


This. It's as if they never bother to ask users "What would you like to see in the next version?" and follow through on the items that most users seem to want. They also haven't figured out that Apple is a hardware company (albeit with proprietary software) and MS is a hardware company. Copying Apple is not the way to go.


/I did find you a copy of Windows highly-interactive "Really Good Edition" edition, though.
 
2013-07-28 06:54:51 PM  

SCUBA_Archer: Has anyone figured a way to keep that annoying side menu on Windows 8 from sliding out randomly? There are days I want to throw my laptop through a wall for doing that. And Start8 doesn't help.


You may have an issue with your trackpad drivers.  The ones for Windows 8 suck on my Lenovo--I had the exact same problem you did and it drove me farking nuts.  Once I reverted to the Windows 7 version of the drivers every one of my problems went away and Start8 works exactly like it should.  I haven't seen that stupid charms menu for months.
 
2013-07-28 07:01:42 PM  

styckx: The most hilarious part is their announcement of bringing back the start menu but it just opens the Metro screen instead and not the classic start menu.. Maximum Trolling


I've heard this complaint a lot, but I don't really understand it.  The start menu is AWFUL.  Digging through that monstrosity to find what you want? Ugh.  Using the start search is so much better.

I was reminded of this when fixing a friend's computer recently.  Like I do on both Win7 and Win8, I pressed start and started typing to search (which is by far faster, and the search on 8 is even faster than on 7), and was reminded that automatic search wasn't in XP.  It took so much longer to find the programs I wanted it's unreal.

Anyway, your solution to both start screen (and menu) woes is just start typing and save yourself the time.  Works on 7.  Works even better on 8.
 
2013-07-28 07:06:11 PM  

fisker: Techhell: I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps"... blah blah blah


You might have a better argument going for you if you could do me a small favor and explain to me why I have never had ANY of the farking problems that you are having with Windows 8.


He can't. What you fail to understand is that the adaptive personality and the reactionary personality don't speak the same perceptive "language" - they don't observe the world in the same terms.
Like you, I fail to see what the fuss is with Win8 - but then, I have gone through this with every change in technology that has gone down in my lifetime, and I know other people who uniformly hate every change.
Adaptive personalities don't perceive technology as "territory". We don't feel "invaded" when the way we do something gets arbitrarily changed - we just do it the new way without really reacting on it.
The reactionary personality feels violated when some gadget he uses suddenly works differently - it's perception and perspective, and you can't argue with it because it ISN'T WRONG.
That is all.
 
2013-07-28 07:25:32 PM  

jso2897: it ISN'T WRONG.


I stand corrected... or something.
 
2013-07-28 07:29:15 PM  
Microsoft is on her way out the Window.

Open Source Software is the Future.  the only place Open Source isn't kicking everyone's ass is the PC Desktop.  and that is because Billy Gates has OEM balls in his tight grasp.

even the Military is switching to Linux/Open Source.

Google and Learn.
 
2013-07-28 07:30:38 PM  

jso2897: fisker: Techhell: I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps"... blah blah blah


You might have a better argument going for you if you could do me a small favor and explain to me why I have never had ANY of the farking problems that you are having with Windows 8.

He can't. What you fail to understand is that the adaptive personality and the reactionary personality don't speak the same perceptive "language" - they don't observe the world in the same terms.
Like you, I fail to see what the fuss is with Win8 - but then, I have gone through this with every change in technology that has gone down in my lifetime, and I know other people who uniformly hate every change.
Adaptive personalities don't perceive technology as "territory". We don't feel "invaded" when the way we do something gets arbitrarily changed - we just do it the new way without really reacting on it.
The reactionary personality feels violated when some gadget he uses suddenly works differently - it's perception and perspective, and you can't argue with it because it ISN'T WRONG.
That is all.


You're both morons.

I can't answer <b>fisker</b>'s question because it's a stupid question. "I'm not having trouble with this therefore you're a moron." is essentially what his question is saying.

<b>jso2897</b> is saying essentially the same thing, "Oh, he doesn't like change ergo he's just dumb. Oh, sorry, he's a "reactionary personality". Which I can diagnose because he doesn't like this one change in technology that I happen to have no problems with, ergo he's got a "reactive" personality and feels like Win8 is violating his sense of territory."

I'm sorry, gentlemen - I'm not buying Windows so I can "adapt" to new technology and new software. If I want to adapt to new software, I'll buy a farking Mac or farking Linux. I have expectations of Windows OS's, and they aren't being met by Win8. I don't have a choice in buying Win8 for my farking computers because you can't farking buy Windows 7 preinstalled on a PC anymore. Places like Best Buy don't knock off any money to uninstall Win8 - it would actually make the computer cost more because I'd have to pay them to uninstall it. Even though I don't farking want it.

This isn't a situation where there's a reasonable choice in the matter - I can't walk into Best Buy or Futuershop and say "I'd like a PC with Windows 7" because they don't do it. If I want to get away from Win8, I have to find one of the remaining small computer stores that will build a PC for me without Win8 being preloaded, have them put the PC together for me and then install an OS that I buy. And contrary to Moron2897's assertions, if I'm going to have to go to that length to get away from Win8 then I'm going to farking get an entirely new OS that I have to radically adapt to, like Linux. Because if I'm going to have to unlearn what I've spent 15+ years learning how to do before I'm going to need to learn how it's being done now, then I'm just going to go for something completely new, and not something sort of new but sort of looks like it used to be, and sometimes works the way it used to but sometimes doesn't.

Fark that with a porcupine.

/UPIA, Microsoft.
 
2013-07-28 07:34:17 PM  

Bravo Two: Linux



Linux runs better than the Apple.   alot less 'walled garden' to deal with.
 
2013-07-28 07:36:29 PM  

wee: sammyk: Tiles are going to make my blood boil

Or you move the mouse to the left and get some bullshiat menu that does nothing.  Or move your mouse too far right and get the exact same bullshiat menu that does nothing.  Or you click Server Manager ALL THE GODDAM TIME. Or a hundred other reasons why the UI sucks giant donkey nuts.

Windows 8/Server 2012 is giant pile of steaming shiat and the high-functioning moron who decided to put that absolutely awful UI on a friggin' server out to be banned from ever holding a job involving computers.

blue_2501: You've had over 10 years to switch to Linux. It's your fault (or your company's) that you're still using Windows for all of this crap.

We develop stats applications for linux and windows.  Some of customers have no clue and decide to use windows as a server OS, so we get the joy of supporting that.  It sucks switching the kvm from Xfce to Server 2012 and seeing that FIsher Price garbage.



Linux has a way of opening eyes and turning on the lights.  i can't really use Windows anymore.  Linux has spoiled me with speed and reliability and not trying to run my life.
 
2013-07-28 07:37:20 PM  

Techhell: jso2897: fisker: Techhell: I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps"... blah blah blah


You might have a better argument going for you if you could do me a small favor and explain to me why I have never had ANY of the farking problems that you are having with Windows 8.

He can't. What you fail to understand is that the adaptive personality and the reactionary personality don't speak the same perceptive "language" - they don't observe the world in the same terms.
Like you, I fail to see what the fuss is with Win8 - but then, I have gone through this with every change in technology that has gone down in my lifetime, and I know other people who uniformly hate every change.
Adaptive personalities don't perceive technology as "territory". We don't feel "invaded" when the way we do something gets arbitrarily changed - we just do it the new way without really reacting on it.
The reactionary personality feels violated when some gadget he uses suddenly works differently - it's perception and perspective, and you can't argue with it because it ISN'T WRONG.
That is all.

You're both morons.

I can't answer <b>fisker</b>'s question because it's a stupid question. "I'm not having trouble with this therefore you're a moron." is essentially what his question is saying.

<b>jso2897</b> is saying essentially the same thing, "Oh, he doesn't like change ergo he's just dumb. Oh, sorry, he's a "reactionary personality". Which I can diagnose because he doesn't like this one change in technology that I happen to have no problems with, ergo he's got a "reactive" personality and feels like Win8 is violating his sense of territory."

I'm sorry, gentlemen - I'm not buying Windows so I can "adapt" to new technology and new software. If I want to adapt to new software, I'll buy a farking Mac or farking Linux. I have expectations of Windows OS's, and they aren't being met by Win8. I don't have a choice in buying Win8 for my farking computers because you can't fa ...


You're the guy with the problem, pal - not me. So, really - who's the "moron"?
 
2013-07-28 07:43:27 PM  

Techhell: jso2897: fisker: Techhell: I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps"... blah blah blah


You might have a better argument going for you if you could do me a small favor and explain to me why I have never had ANY of the farking problems that you are having with Windows 8.

He can't. What you fail to understand is that the adaptive personality and the reactionary personality don't speak the same perceptive "language" - they don't observe the world in the same terms.
Like you, I fail to see what the fuss is with Win8 - but then, I have gone through this with every change in technology that has gone down in my lifetime, and I know other people who uniformly hate every change.
Adaptive personalities don't perceive technology as "territory". We don't feel "invaded" when the way we do something gets arbitrarily changed - we just do it the new way without really reacting on it.
The reactionary personality feels violated when some gadget he uses suddenly works differently - it's perception and perspective, and you can't argue with it because it ISN'T WRONG.
That is all.

You're both morons.

I can't answer <b>fisker</b>'s question because it's a stupid question. "I'm not having trouble with this therefore you're a moron." is essentially what his question is saying.

<b>jso2897</b> is saying essentially the same thing, "Oh, he doesn't like change ergo he's just dumb. Oh, sorry, he's a "reactionary personality". Which I can diagnose because he doesn't like this one change in technology that I happen to have no problems with, ergo he's got a "reactive" personality and feels like Win8 is violating his sense of territory."

I'm sorry, gentlemen - I'm not buying Windows so I can "adapt" to new technology and new software. If I want to adapt to new software, I'll buy a farking Mac or farking Linux. I have expectations of Windows OS's, and they aren't being met by Win8. I don't have a choice in buying Win8 for my farking computers because you can't fa ...


Do you have a Skype account?

Give it to me.

My totalfark email is in my profile.

I will do a 'screen share' with you right now and run circles on you're farking ass on why and how Windows 8 is a better OS than any other that has ever been made.

I'm tired of dropping screen shots of what I am using and expecting you guys to actually be capable of understanding the differences and why you suck at computers in the first place.

This is a PC. A desktop. It is not a tablet or a phone. I have 7 farking computers running multiple operating systems and this computer is the best and it is a running the evaluation copy of Windows 8.1.

It is flawless. They have scrubbed out so much shiat making it incredibly fast and very powerful.
 
2013-07-28 07:45:22 PM  

fisker: this is my start screen

[i.imgur.com image 850x478]

this is my desktop

[i.imgur.com image 850x479]

This is the worst shiat I have ever seen. It's so hard to use. It sucks so farking bad that I am going to go sit in the corner and slit my kneecaps.

I can't take it anymore.



and this is your solution.  i use the MATE desktop but cinnamon is also great.

http://www.linuxmint.com/screenshots.php
 
2013-07-28 07:48:18 PM  

Kazan: Shadowknight: I think their problem is multifold:

1) Ballmer wanted to become a "tablet and application" company.  In other words, he wanted to be Apple, which is a mistake I think.  I mean, if you want an Apple, you can already buy that, and they kind of have the market on that.  He wanted to get away from just being an operating system company, which I get, but unifying your device operation across platforms just made everyone angry on your established base.  Windows 8, for all the good it has, pisses off a lot of people with the lack of familiar desktop start menu in order to try to homogenize the experience with your portable devices.  You didn't really increase your mobile usage at the expense of irritating your traditional base.

2) While the Surface Pro is by all accounts an awesome system that everyone I know that has one absolutely loves (see also:   Mike Krahulik of Penny Arcade's self review of the thing).  If I hadn't JUST bought a new ultrabook for editing my photos right before it was announced, I would have held out for that.  Everything I read says that while it's storage is limited (nothing that can't be fixed with a portable hard drive full of DNGs), it's more than powerful enough and has all the features of a Waccom visual tablet. for editing.

That said, the fact that they released an identical looking but intensely inferior Surface RT really confused the market.  The Pro runs a full version of Windows 8, whose "Metro" menu is infinitely less frustrating on a touch screen/tablet like device, and capable of running anything a normal laptop can run.  The RT, however, is like Microsoft's answer to the iPad, and can only run what you'd find on any mobile platform equivalent.  I think it confused the market, and people that would have heard about how awesome the Surface Pro is instead heard from a friend or a news site how stupid the RT was, and couldn't really tell the difference between the two.  And I can't really blame the average, non-techy pers ...


I think you both hit the nail on the head.

Microsoft needs to,stop trying to be Apple 2.0, The Surface Pro is fantastic, it is a tablet that can do anything a laptop can, that has fully functional Windows 8, USB ports etc. It is a professional tablet that outstrips the iPad in every way for professional application.

Microsoft needs to stop trying to be hip and market to serious people, brand the iPad as a toy for kids and the Surface as a tool for adults.
 
2013-07-28 07:49:43 PM  

fisker: Do you have a Skype account?

Give it to me.

My totalfark email is in my profile.

I will do a 'screen share' with you right now and run circles on you're farking ass on why and how Windows 8 is a better OS than any other that has ever been made.

I'm tired of dropping screen shots of what I am using and expecting you guys to actually be capable of understanding the differences and why you suck at computers in the first place.

This is a PC. A desktop. It is not a tablet or a phone. I have 7 farking computers running multiple operating systems and this computer is the best and it is a running the evaluation copy of Windows 8.1.

It is flawless. They have scrubbed out so much shiat making it incredibly fast and very powerful.


I do believe we have found the techno-geek equivalent of "I'll come to your house and kick your ass."
 
2013-07-28 07:50:58 PM  

Linux_Yes: fisker: this is my start screen

[i.imgur.com image 850x478]

this is my desktop

[i.imgur.com image 850x479]

This is the worst shiat I have ever seen. It's so hard to use. It sucks so farking bad that I am going to go sit in the corner and slit my kneecaps.

I can't take it anymore.


and this is your solution.  i use the MATE desktop but cinnamon is also great.

http://www.linuxmint.com/screenshots.php


That looks cool.
 
2013-07-28 07:51:29 PM  
If Microsoft hadn't locked down RT, companies could have ported their software directly to RT without too much trouble.  I've ported stuff to jailbroken RT - it's pretty straightforward.

Microsoft wants a walled garden like Apple's, and doesn't want programs that aren't optimized for Touch flooding the platform.  They don't get it - they're too late.  Their advantage is having Windows applications, and without that, they're just releasing another tablet that'll fail like HP did.

That Surface Pro is doing so much better shows that people love the tablet concept that can also be used like a PC when needed.  Microsoft could have done the same with RT.

So withy the bad sales of RT, you'd think that they'd improve things with Windows 8.1, right?  Well, the opposite is true - they spent a significant engineering effort to lock down RT against the jailbreaks that were used on 8.0.  Their kernel team could have spent that time doing something more useful, but nope.  I'm in the RT jailbreak project, so I can give you details if you want, but they're quite technical.
 
2013-07-28 08:04:32 PM  

MightyPez: I do believe we have found the techno-geek equivalent of "I'll come to your house and kick your ass."


Do you think I am scared?

Windows 8.1 is Windows 7 without the performance and tools indicator and everything else that never made any sense in the first place.

Who gives a fark about windows or programs fading in or out in some fancy bullshiat way? OPEN THE FARKING PROGRAM.

That and MANY other things this OS has taken care of. I don't give a fark about my performance score or aero bullshiat.
 
2013-07-28 08:20:20 PM  
All the people complaining about W8 are forgetting the cardinal rule of Microsoft OS: Don't adopt (at least not on your primary machine) until the first major update/service pack (8.1 in this case) is released.
 
2013-07-28 08:42:04 PM  

fisker: MightyPez: I do believe we have found the techno-geek equivalent of "I'll come to your house and kick your ass."

Do you think I am scared?

Windows 8.1 is Windows 7 without the performance and tools indicator and everything else that never made any sense in the first place.

Who gives a fark about windows or programs fading in or out in some fancy bullshiat way? OPEN THE FARKING PROGRAM.

That and MANY other things this OS has taken care of. I don't give a fark about my performance score or aero bullshiat.


Huh? Scared of what? I run Windows 8, and none of what you are blathering about changes my premise that you're pulling a childish ITG over a piece of software.
 
2013-07-28 08:42:23 PM  

Linux_Yes: Bravo Two: Linux


Linux runs better than the Apple.   alot less 'walled garden' to deal with.


I never really cared about the walled garden. In fact, I kind of liked it for most things. And, in my experience, Linux on a PC ran as well as Mac on a Mac, though it was far less integrated and put together given the fragmentation of people building software and GUI elements and not following any kind of uniform standard of where to put what and how it all works together.

But. Here I am arguing with a known troll. Silly me.
 
2013-07-28 08:45:22 PM  

MightyPez: I run Windows 8


I'm running Windows 8.1.

Try again.
 
2013-07-28 08:47:03 PM  

fisker: MightyPez: I run Windows 8

I'm running Windows 8.1.

Try again.


Bully for you, what does that have to do with what I was saying? I'm running 8.1 in a VM for testing. Do I get accolades now too?
 
2013-07-28 08:49:12 PM  

MightyPez: fisker: MightyPez: I run Windows 8

I'm running Windows 8.1.

Try again.

Bully for you, what does that have to do with what I was saying? I'm running 8.1 in a VM for testing. Do I get accolades now too?


This is better.

What are you having problems with?
 
2013-07-28 08:51:23 PM  

fisker: MightyPez: fisker: MightyPez: I run Windows 8

I'm running Windows 8.1.

Try again.

Bully for you, what does that have to do with what I was saying? I'm running 8.1 in a VM for testing. Do I get accolades now too?

This is better.

What are you having problems with?


I haven't had any. I also was, at no point, disparaging either in this thread. Are you schizophrenic?
 
2013-07-28 08:53:42 PM  

MightyPez: fisker: MightyPez: fisker: MightyPez: I run Windows 8

I'm running Windows 8.1.

Try again.

Bully for you, what does that have to do with what I was saying? I'm running 8.1 in a VM for testing. Do I get accolades now too?

This is better.

What are you having problems with?

I haven't had any. I also was, at no point, disparaging either in this thread. Are you schizophrenic?


No.

I am dealing with multiple personalities on a discussion board and I am wiping them out because I anti-schizoid.
 
2013-07-28 08:53:45 PM  

Bravo Two: Linux_Yes: Bravo Two: Linux


Linux runs better than the Apple.   alot less 'walled garden' to deal with.

I never really cared about the walled garden. In fact, I kind of liked it for most things. And, in my experience, Linux on a PC ran as well as Mac on a Mac, though it was far less integrated and put together given the fragmentation of people building software and GUI elements and not following any kind of uniform standard of where to put what and how it all works together.

But. Here I am arguing with a known troll. Silly me.


Also, Linux suffers from one other major flaw: it still doesn't have the software library that works as well as Mac or pc. Want exchange email on Linux? Sorry, you're SOL. Need ready support for all the features of a printer? Good luck. Have a laptop or desktop that uses something not quite standard? Good luck!

I have an MSI notebook that has both the intel integrated and an NVIDIA discreet GPU. In windows, it smartly switches between them for power savings. In Linux, good luck getting it to use the discreet card.

And, I find the Linux method of installing software esoteric and annoying. I want to download a package, double click, and let it go. I don't want to fark around in the terminal or have to worry about dependencies and custom tweaks to get things working.

This is what I like about apple: it just works as I can be lazy. It looks nice, it does what I want, and it has the unix shell and apps when I want/need them.

Pity that apple's hardware is A gen or two behind the average PC these days, with less options. Hence I switched to windows. And so far, I really like most things about 8 after learning my way around.
 
2013-07-28 09:03:50 PM  

MightyPez: Are you schizophrenic?


Trust me.

If there was something actually wrong with Windows 8 (8.1) I would be screaming about it in the same manner that I scream about people thinking that The Avengers was a good movie.

You are all farked in the head.

You never decide for yourselves.
 
2013-07-28 09:11:05 PM  

fisker: MightyPez: Are you schizophrenic?

Trust me.

If there was something actually wrong with Windows 8 (8.1) I would be screaming about it in the same manner that I scream about people thinking that The Avengers was a good movie.

You are all farked in the head.

You never decide for yourselves.


At this point I have to think you're trolling. I haven't said a thing about Windows 8 or 8.1, good or bad. I run both. You're just itching for a fight, for some reason.
 
2013-07-28 09:11:41 PM  
Ugh, I need to stop engaging crazy people on the internet.
 
2013-07-28 09:15:49 PM  

MightyPez: fisker: MightyPez: Are you schizophrenic?

Trust me.

If there was something actually wrong with Windows 8 (8.1) I would be screaming about it in the same manner that I scream about people thinking that The Avengers was a good movie.

You are all farked in the head.

You never decide for yourselves.

At this point I have to think you're trolling. I haven't said a thing about Windows 8 or 8.1, good or bad. I run both. You're just itching for a fight, for some reason.


It gets better. It far exceeds your ability to understand because I am a farking master at this.
 
2013-07-28 09:31:21 PM  
Steve Balmer demonstrates the new Microsoft Oral Computer and Light Source, powered by Windows RT
 
2013-07-28 09:33:17 PM  
WTF?  It "threw away" the image?

washingtonisbroke.com
 
2013-07-28 09:40:23 PM  
I am a 43 year old sysadmin with many years in the game, and I will say that Win8 is a pretty decent os once you run stardock.

The majority of Apple users would not know a command line if it bit them in the ass.
 
2013-07-28 09:40:51 PM  
In name, Microsoft will be around maybe 20 more years. They'll never release any more hardware, and their next attempt at an OS will be their deathknell.

Zynga will last perhaps another 5 years. Someone will buy them based on their terrible valuation and name recognition (hopefully EA), and it will go down in the annals as among the worst capital investments of all time. Careers of reasonably intelligent people will be destroyed by it. And justly so.
 
2013-07-28 10:12:52 PM  

theflatline: The majority of Apple users would not know a command line if it bit them in the ass.


My 75 year old mother has zero need to even know that Command Line exists.  For that matter, neither does 98% of the world's population.

/god I hate techies who assume that everyone needs to know technical minutiae they have no use for.
 
2013-07-28 10:35:21 PM  
How are poorly documented, hidden preferences and a CLI straight from the late 80s an acceptable response to today's market? It's like saying that I can have the customizability of an X11 interface on my mac if I download Xcode, do into preferences, download command-line coding libraries, and then the thing's source code, then compile it in the terminal (guess what I had to do to get Zangband working?). I get a vastly inferior product after a lot of pointless hassle.

There is absolutely no excuse for ever asking the vast majority of users (say, 99.9% of them) to ever go to a command line. Any interface which requires that throws out forty years of UI development and every user's expectations.

Please, please defend using a command line for me. How does that suit the average person's needs, ESPECIALLY on a UI which encourages touch interface?

/Got me an OEM version of Windows 7 since OS10.8 won't allow XP anymore. Thank God I got it when I did.
 
2013-07-28 10:44:29 PM  

Marine1: RandomAxe: Marine1: Enough whining about an interface change.

You don't really understand the concept of 'the customer', much less the point of 'the user'.

And they don't understand the concept of 'progress', much less 'development headaches'. They're the same people who will ask, 'Why do I need to upgrade my Windows XP laptop? It does everything I need just fine", then come to you whining about how it won't run the latest programs and is full of more security holes than Swiss cheese.

If Apple had introduced it, people would hail it as a major advancement. I've been using it on my desktop since launch day. There's nothing wrong with it. If you can figure out managing a computer from the CLI, you have the mental horsepower to adjust to Windows 8. If you don't, quit your job and start cleaning bathrooms at the local hourly-rate motel. I'm far from the most capable power user I know, and if I can figure it out as an undergrad in an IT program, anyone can.


What problems that previously existed were fixed by the UI changes in Windows 8 / Server 2012?

I won't hold my breath waiting, but I'll give you a hint: you're the one who should stay out of or leave the IT industry.
 
2013-07-28 11:01:51 PM  

Funbags: In name, Microsoft will be around maybe 20 more years. They'll never release any more hardware, and their next attempt at an OS will be their deathknell.


Their next piece of hardware comes out in a few months.  As long as their are "fat" programs that business use Microsoft will exist with an OS.  Honestly the biggest competitor long-term for MS is not Apple, certainly not Linux, but rather it is Chrome.

In a connected world where nearly everything exists in the cloud and is accessed from a browser a full-fledged OS is not necessary for 90% of what people do.
 
2013-07-28 11:07:59 PM  

Carousel Beast: Marine1: RandomAxe: Marine1: Enough whining about an interface change.

You don't really understand the concept of 'the customer', much less the point of 'the user'.

And they don't understand the concept of 'progress', much less 'development headaches'. They're the same people who will ask, 'Why do I need to upgrade my Windows XP laptop? It does everything I need just fine", then come to you whining about how it won't run the latest programs and is full of more security holes than Swiss cheese.

If Apple had introduced it, people would hail it as a major advancement. I've been using it on my desktop since launch day. There's nothing wrong with it. If you can figure out managing a computer from the CLI, you have the mental horsepower to adjust to Windows 8. If you don't, quit your job and start cleaning bathrooms at the local hourly-rate motel. I'm far from the most capable power user I know, and if I can figure it out as an undergrad in an IT program, anyone can.

What problems that previously existed were fixed by the UI changes in Windows 8 / Server 2012?

I won't hold my breath waiting, but I'll give you a hint: you're the one who should stay out of or leave the IT industry.


From a lazy user's perspective: The start screen makes it a hell of a lot easier to see your apps and organize them than does the start menu. Having the ability to configure "apps" such that they display useful information there, like current appointment for Exchange Calendar or weather info, makes it about as useful to me as having such abilities in Dashboard on a mac. win key, bam, i have quick updated information. Plus I get the same ability as I get in apple's Launch pad to see my favorite apps, search through all apps, and have a simple Winkey--> Start typing --> Find ap/hit return--> Launch app which saves a few steps.

where Win 8 fell on its face for me was not immediately putting things like the control panel and "Advanced user" items right out in front easily. Having "Settings" take you to a page that has nothing to do with either the Control Panel or anything else related to configuration of the US is unintuitive. Having the OS on a PC not have the option to default to a desktop view with some means of accessing the start screen without a keyboard input or a hot corner is unintuitive. Having a separate bar with "charms" that should be part of the start screen is unintuitive.

Now me, I hated the start menu. Having either a crapton of icons in the start menu, or on the task bar, or having to root through folders to get to apps was a pain in the ass (and that assumes that the apps were ones that installed something in the start menu and not just dropping a standalone EXE on the machine.   The start screen is neater, easier, and more apt to be useful "at a glance" since I can now arrange apps into columns that make sense to me and they're all right there.

As a SysAdmin, it's a tossup. I *like* any OS that treats my server as an appliance for first-blush access. I don't *want* to go straight to a desktop all the time. i want a five-icon "launcher" that goes either to the server center, the power shell, or the consoles for services like Exchange, AD, GP, etc.  Unless I'm doing something that requires the desktop, I'm not going to spend a heck of a lot of time dinking around in it, and on a server, I could be just as comfortable with the desktop not even running to save on the minimal resources it requires.  I have managed Linux servers that never even had a GUI, and that was fine with me, too.
 
2013-07-28 11:10:51 PM  

mjbok: In a connected world where nearly everything exists in the cloud and is accessed from a browser a full-fledged OS is not necessary for 90% of what people do.


Save for the issue of how you make sure that traffic to and from the cloud is secure, and there are no means by which people can gain unauthorized access. Unless it exists in my data center where I can simply cut the cord to the outside if there's a concern, then depending on a trans-internet connection for data and apps is a huge security hole.

In enterprise, there must remain some way to host the "cloud" internally, much like Citrix and VMWare provide for virtual desktops and virtual apps that are hosted from a local server. No, the end user may not need a full PC for basic use, but the datacenter still needs to be in-house without some extremely secure alternative like a secure point to point connection.
 
2013-07-28 11:11:17 PM  

fisker: MightyPez: Are you schizophrenic?

Trust me.

If there was something actually wrong with Windows 8 (8.1) I would be screaming about it in the same manner that I scream about people thinking that The Avengers was a good movie.

You are all farked in the head.

You never decide for yourselves.


i.qkme.me
 
2013-07-28 11:24:04 PM  

Gleeman: fisker: MightyPez: Are you schizophrenic?

Trust me.

If there was something actually wrong with Windows 8 (8.1) I would be screaming about it in the same manner that I scream about people thinking that The Avengers was a good movie.

You are all farked in the head.

You never decide for yourselves.

[i.qkme.me image 625x483]


i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-28 11:36:24 PM  

jso2897: fisker: Techhell: I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps"... blah blah blah


You might have a better argument going for you if you could do me a small favor and explain to me why I have never had ANY of the farking problems that you are having with Windows 8.

He can't. What you fail to understand is that the adaptive personality and the reactionary personality don't speak the same perceptive "language" - they don't observe the world in the same terms.
Like you, I fail to see what the fuss is with Win8 - but then, I have gone through this with every change in technology that has gone down in my lifetime, and I know other people who uniformly hate every change.
Adaptive personalities don't perceive technology as "territory". We don't feel "invaded" when the way we do something gets arbitrarily changed - we just do it the new way without really reacting on it.
The reactionary personality feels violated when some gadget he uses suddenly works differently - it's perception and perspective, and you can't argue with it because it ISN'T WRONG.
That is all.


Pointing out how un-worldly you are and how incapable you are of understanding other users' needs only serves to make you look both arrogant and incredibly stupid.
 
2013-07-28 11:37:07 PM  

theflatline: The majority of Apple users would not know a command line if it bit them in the ass.


lol, wut?
pssst: it is no longer the 90s.
 
2013-07-28 11:51:20 PM  

nytmare: jso2897: fisker: Techhell: I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps"... blah blah blah


You might have a better argument going for you if you could do me a small favor and explain to me why I have never had ANY of the farking problems that you are having with Windows 8.

He can't. What you fail to understand is that the adaptive personality and the reactionary personality don't speak the same perceptive "language" - they don't observe the world in the same terms.
Like you, I fail to see what the fuss is with Win8 - but then, I have gone through this with every change in technology that has gone down in my lifetime, and I know other people who uniformly hate every change.
Adaptive personalities don't perceive technology as "territory". We don't feel "invaded" when the way we do something gets arbitrarily changed - we just do it the new way without really reacting on it.
The reactionary personality feels violated when some gadget he uses suddenly works differently - it's perception and perspective, and you can't argue with it because it ISN'T WRONG.
That is all.

Pointing out how un-worldly you are and how incapable you are of understanding other users' needs only serves to make you look both arrogant and incredibly stupid.


And yet here you are, lashing out at me verbally, because you are so indifferent to my "stupidity".
Pushing fanbois buttons is fun.
 
2013-07-29 12:01:24 AM  

Linux_Yes: Open Source Software is the Future.


...and has been for twenty-plus years.

2014 is the year of the Linux desktop. I feel it in my bones.
 
2013-07-29 12:02:44 AM  

nytmare: jso2897: fisker: Techhell: I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps"... blah blah blah


You might have a better argument going for you if you could do me a small favor and explain to me why I have never had ANY of the farking problems that you are having with Windows 8.

He can't. What you fail to understand is that the adaptive personality and the reactionary personality don't speak the same perceptive "language" - they don't observe the world in the same terms.
Like you, I fail to see what the fuss is with Win8 - but then, I have gone through this with every change in technology that has gone down in my lifetime, and I know other people who uniformly hate every change.
Adaptive personalities don't perceive technology as "territory". We don't feel "invaded" when the way we do something gets arbitrarily changed - we just do it the new way without really reacting on it.
The reactionary personality feels violated when some gadget he uses suddenly works differently - it's perception and perspective, and you can't argue with it because it ISN'T WRONG.
That is all.

Pointing out how un-worldly you are and how incapable you are of understanding other users' needs only serves to make you look both arrogant and incredibly stupid.


The entire geek thread on this website does nothing but fark the ass of everything they think every other grandmother or typical asshole thinks about anything.

Everyone in this thread thinks that they have the perfect idea for the best operating system and they are doing nothing but tongue lashing.

I playtest for Microsoft and I give actual input to their developers because I figured I would step up and actually do something about it.

There are people here saying that Microsoft doesn't ask what others think or ask what they want and they are wrong.

These people sit you in a room and they watch your reaction. They build on that. Your reaction is what they are developing. Not what you think you want. It always changes and when they release something it is identical to the experience when Hollywood releases a movie. You already hate it even when you asked for it and didn't realize it.
 
2013-07-29 12:06:59 AM  

Techhell: wee: Kazan: we're not good at "we're cool and hip". or marketing.

As long as you have Monkey Boy for a CEO there's little you'll be good at.  Except for maybe embrace, extend and extinguish.

(Seriously: Did anyone see Windows 8 before it shipped?!  That is a farking awful UI...)

My bet is that there was someone at M$ who was in charge of screening the replies to the Beta testers of the Win8 UI, and anyone who said "This is awful!" found their input screened out.


When I beta tested it I even went out of my way to reference my ergonomics textbooks from college in my feedback.

The list of infractions was pretty impressive. And I'm positive my time was completely wasted.

/if they were forums, Linux would be stackoverflow and Microsoft would be freerepublic
 
2013-07-29 12:12:11 AM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Techhell: wee: Kazan: we're not good at "we're cool and hip". or marketing.

As long as you have Monkey Boy for a CEO there's little you'll be good at.  Except for maybe embrace, extend and extinguish.

(Seriously: Did anyone see Windows 8 before it shipped?!  That is a farking awful UI...)

My bet is that there was someone at M$ who was in charge of screening the replies to the Beta testers of the Win8 UI, and anyone who said "This is awful!" found their input screened out.

When I beta tested it I even went out of my way to reference my ergonomics textbooks from college in my feedback.

The list of infractions was pretty impressive. And I'm positive my time was completely wasted.

/if they were forums, Linux would be stackoverflow and Microsoft would be freerepublic


i18.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-29 12:30:40 AM  
jso2897

Nice!
 
2013-07-29 12:35:11 AM  

Bravo Two: As a SysAdmin, it's a tossup. I *like* any OS that treats my server as an appliance for first-blush access. I don't *want* to go straight to a desktop all the time. i want a five-icon "launcher" that goes either to the server center, the power shell, or the consoles for services like Exchange, AD, GP, etc. Unless I'm doing something that requires the desktop, I'm not going to spend a heck of a lot of time dinking around in it, and on a server, I could be just as comfortable with the desktop not even running to save on the minimal resources it requires. I have managed Linux servers that never even had a GUI, and that was fine with me, too.


See, this is where I disagree. When you're in large environments, they're not homogeneous; we have flavors of Windows from 2000 on up, and exactly what we *don't* need is an oddball group of servers that you have to completely change both your mindset and practical steps to administrate for the exact same applications. I've spent 15 years getting my administrative setups the way I like them; I don't need Microsoft to turn around and dictate that it's now useless, when previously there was no artificial limitation on the OS. If SMB 3 wasn't the bee's knees, I wouldn't be deploying it in my SQL environment at all, solely for that reason.

Now, philosophically, I agree, the new UI in Win 8/Server 201 have some nice positives, but there needed to be a transition with an option on the switch and then the CATs putting out some white papers with examples of the new hotness available to admins. Instead, we got a hamfisted clusterfark.
 .
 
2013-07-29 12:35:57 AM  
I'll never forgive Microsoft for removing deltree from the command line interface years back. Seriously a dick move.
 
2013-07-29 12:47:33 AM  

Gotfire: I'll never forgive Microsoft for removing deltree from the command line interface years back. Seriously a dick move.


Now you have to del /s /q *

There might be a powershell way to do it, but powershell strikes me as a weird way of tricking admins into writing C# programs as a script. Might as well compile an exe with the potential for a GUI if you're going to go through the trouble.

Currently my favorite Microsoft dick move is in regards to diagnosing POP3 issues for Exchange: "Use telnet."

Which reminds me, I totally need to flip the guy who ported OpenSSL to Windows a buck or twenty.
 
2013-07-29 01:32:06 AM  

fisker: nytmare: jso2897: fisker: Techhell: I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps"... blah blah blah


You might have a better argument going for you if you could do me a small favor and explain to me why I have never had ANY of the farking problems that you are having with Windows 8.

He can't. What you fail to understand is that the adaptive personality and the reactionary personality don't speak the same perceptive "language" - they don't observe the world in the same terms.
Like you, I fail to see what the fuss is with Win8 - but then, I have gone through this with every change in technology that has gone down in my lifetime, and I know other people who uniformly hate every change.
Adaptive personalities don't perceive technology as "territory". We don't feel "invaded" when the way we do something gets arbitrarily changed - we just do it the new way without really reacting on it.
The reactionary personality feels violated when some gadget he uses suddenly works differently - it's perception and perspective, and you can't argue with it because it ISN'T WRONG.
That is all.

Pointing out how un-worldly you are and how incapable you are of understanding other users' needs only serves to make you look both arrogant and incredibly stupid.

The entire geek thread on this website does nothing but fark the ass of everything they think every other grandmother or typical asshole thinks about anything.

Everyone in this thread thinks that they have the perfect idea for the best operating system and they are doing nothing but tongue lashing.

I playtest for Microsoft and I give actual input to their developers because I figured I would step up and actually do something about it.

There are people here saying that Microsoft doesn't ask what others think or ask what they want and they are wrong.

These people sit you in a room and they watch your reaction. They build on that. Your reaction is what they are developing. Not what you think you want. It always changes and when ...


I amost gave up when people in the GEEK tab didn't know jack shiat about the Nokia 808(which been out a year) when talking about MP on the Lumia 1020
 
2013-07-29 02:32:35 AM  
"Look, a huge part of the problem is that a vast section of the market regards MS as wildly incompetent -- because they've never turned out a really good version of Windows. "

I still can't figure out if this statement is a troll or not. If not for the fact that a lot of newer programs just wouldn't support Windows 2000, I'd still be using it. I rarely had any issues with it and that OS ran fast. Win7 is also a great OS, created out of the disaster that was Vista. Until software support starts dying out for 7 I'll keep using it.

And "wildly incompetent"? No, that would be a company like Zynga or Groupon. MS still makes a healthy profit (unlike some companies like Amazon) and they can turn out decent products. That Microsoft tent to make a few really boneheaded decisions doesn't make them incompetent.
 
2013-07-29 03:49:18 AM  

Linux_Yes: Microsoft is on her way out the Window.

Open Source Software is the Future.  the only place Open Source isn't kicking everyone's ass is the PC Desktop.  and that is because Billy Gates has OEM balls in his tight grasp.

even the Military is switching to Linux/Open Source.

Google and Learn.


emotibot.net

I'd love to hear examples of all these markets where open source is dominating.

The reality is that open source is getting clobbered nearly everywhere, as it has been essentially forever. The only major exceptions to this are web server (Apache) and smartphone OS (Android). Off the top of my head, the following software industries are dominated by closed source: client OS (Windows), gaming (Xbox, PS3, Steam), cloud (Amazon), productivity (Office), content management (SharePoint), enterprise server (Win Server), search (Google), Email (GMail, Exchange) social media (Facebook, Twitter), music (iPod, iTunes), image editing (Photoshop), etc. Each of these things has open source equivalents and they're all flailing for share because entering any of these spaces in a serious way takes billions of dollars. Android's funding is a rare exception, but as we've seen it doesn't make Google any money.

But maybe next year the entire landscape of the market will change...
 
2013-07-29 03:57:01 AM  

oren0: The reality is that open source is getting clobbered nearly everywhere, as it has been essentially forever. The only major exceptions to this are web server (Apache) and smartphone OS (Android).


You could also include web browsers here, but I didn't, both because web browser market share is a matter of debate (see this Wikipedia page) and because Chrome is not fully open source.
 
2013-07-29 04:33:05 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Techhell: Windows has lost me as an automatic customer

There's millions of you out there, and it didn't have to be this way.  They threw the baby out with the bath water.  It's exactly like New Coke.


Same here. I switched to a Mac in 2006 and actually would've installed Windows 7 on it via boot camp if I'd had space. But then my laptop finally died and I ended up having to use my mom's Windows 8 laptop, and it just makes me mad. And why the HELL doesn't the escape button get me out of anything in the Metro interface? It's so jarring and pointless.

If I can't afford a Mac soon I may try to build a hackintosh. I didn't have to work much with OS X. Work just let me customize it extra, it already worked great. I also can't get used to the Windows versions of Photoshop and Illustrator for some reason.
 
2013-07-29 06:27:29 AM  
I remember when it was a sin to have 'mystery meat' navigation.  Then it became "discoverable".  All the browsers have gone that way.  Hello, most of us have giant screens, we don't need to save every centimeter of space.  Then MS went full retard and made important parts of the OS discoverable.

RandomAxe: Believe me, I know a TON of people who will never 'upgrade' from XP. Never. They will jump to Apple or give in and do the work to switch to Mint or something rather than suffer through Windows 8.


Three giant computer/electronics sellers near me still use XP on their cash wraps.  Think about that a sec: businesses that mainly make money by selling computers and software use a 10 year old OS for a critical mission.  XP is also all over industrial systems.  For my work, Windows 7 works fine and is close enough to XP in operation that there usually aren't usability problems.   In fact, I just picked up a new notebook to support a client.  Didn't have time to order one with W7, none of the ones in stock were quite right, so I just got a good one, wiped out Windows 8 and put on W7 and loaded the drivers.  So much better.  If I had loaded up our company's stuff onto the stock W8 and handed it to the client they would have been farking pissed.   And no, Start8 or 8.1 with all the mods are still nowhere near good enough.
 
2013-07-29 06:41:58 AM  

Techhell: Oh, sorry, he's a "reactionary personality".


I think the post you're referring to wins for idiocy in this thread.  My job is to innovate, I in fact love change a little too much.  But that means I've experienced cases (some by my own hand, some embarrassingly involving customers) where the change is for shiat.  So you, as the innovator go, welp, that sucked, sorry, let's go back to the old way or try something totally different.   In creative contexts, it's called "killing your babies", being willing to acknowledge when something you labored over just doesn't fit the bill and needs to be chucked.

For the next couple years there won't be a shortage of MS dick suckers who think everyone calling 8 out on its bullshiat UI "fear change".
 
2013-07-29 07:11:58 AM  

Bacontastesgood: Techhell: Oh, sorry, he's a "reactionary personality".

I think the post you're referring to wins for idiocy in this thread.  My job is to innovate, I in fact love change a little too much.  But that means I've experienced cases (some by my own hand, some embarrassingly involving customers) where the change is for shiat.  So you, as the innovator go, welp, that sucked, sorry, let's go back to the old way or try something totally different.   In creative contexts, it's called "killing your babies", being willing to acknowledge when something you labored over just doesn't fit the bill and needs to be chucked.

For the next couple years there won't be a shortage of MS dick suckers who think everyone calling 8 out on its bullshiat UI "fear change".


Heh. Another sensitive nerve touched. Let the hate flow through you. But if you think it's the well-adjusted adults who don't obsess about these things who look like the "idiots" in these discussions, you are self deluded.
 
2013-07-29 10:28:06 AM  

Techhell: Shadowknight: I think their problem is multifold:

1) Ballmer wanted to become a "tablet and application" company.  In other words, he wanted to be Apple, which is a mistake I think.  I mean, if you want an Apple, you can already buy that, and they kind of have the market on that.  He wanted to get away from just being an operating system company, which I get, but unifying your device operation across platforms just made everyone angry on your established base.  Windows 8, for all the good it has, pisses off a lot of people with the lack of familiar desktop start menu in order to try to homogenize the experience with your portable devices.   You didn't really increase your mobile usage at the expense of irritating your traditional base.

As I am currently posting from a Windows 8 Laptop, I can attest to this line in particular. I wanted a farking laptop computer - not a Tablet with a built in keyboard and USB capability. I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps". I hate when it opens up into a new entire-window app to view a photo or a movie, unless I specifically tell it to use VLC media player. I hate when it flips over to the Tiled view randomly and takes 10 seconds to go to the Start icon and then the Desktop tile. I hate having to install a third-party program to get a regular Start Menu. I hate how many hoops I have to jump through to remove passwords on user accounts, to add user accounts and to generally deal with user accounts. I hate when my cursor goes over the edge of the screen and menu's come up - I've got a shiatty mouse that sometimes freezes, then jumps. That's fine on my Windows 7 machine, but drives me nuts on Windows 8, and I hate that the only real fix is to buy a new farking mouse. I hate that it doesn't come with the basic games I've actually grown to love quite a bit - which is a rather petty hate, I know. But you add it all together and I'm not likely to buy a Windows Tablet in the future. Or any Windows products.

The Windows 8 inte ...


From 1991, I used Windows up until 2012. What finally turned me off to Windows was when my folks got a Compaq Presario 9232, with Windows 95 on it. That was the buggiest most unstable piece of crap I have EVER encountered in my life. Compaq Tech Support knew me by name and created a frequent flyer program just for me because I regularly called them up to figure out just what the heck was wrong with Windows this time and how to fix it. Once, (maybe cause they were getting so tired of having to fix Microsoft's crap) they sent me to Microsoft, and I don't recall getting much help there. After that experience, I went to Windows XP. I was sick and tired of the same old issues popping up. Sure, the serious crap I had with Compaq disappeared with the XP computer I got, but over time the same issues would crop up necessitating a complete reformat. (Gets slower, buggier, unstable). I wanted to jump to Apple, but Mr. Budget refused to let me, so instead I took the plunge and went full on Linux. I can't recall a time I was happier with an OS (well, wait, I can. My IBM PS/1 with Windows 3.1. Man, was that thing stable.). I was so pleased I had finally escaped from the Microsoft plantation!


...then my Linux laptop "died" (my tech friends say it sounds more like the video card is overheating and I need to apply new thermal paste to the heat sink). I needed a laptop so I bought a Lenovo (cool) with Windows 8 on it.


....

If I had bought a tablet, I'd say Windows 8 was awesome.
If my new laptop had a touchscreen, I'd have a better opinion of Windows 8.
But I didn't and my laptop doesn't.

Windows 8 is the most annoying and user-UNfriendly OS I have ever encountered in my life. Once I can figure out how to get Linux Mint to type in Japanese, I'm sending Windows 8 straight to reformat hell.

/end rant
//I still have my IBM PS/1, Windows 3.1 PC.
///Still works like a charm. Stable too.
www.old-computers.com
 
2013-07-29 10:34:32 AM  
jso2897:Heh. Another sensitive nerve touched. Let the hate flow through you. But if you think it's the well-adjusted adults who don't obsess about these things who look like the "idiots" in these discussions, you are self deluded.

It was a terrible post, and your sorting of "everyone who hates bad UI decisions" into some bullshiat "reactionary personality" category was without grounding and entirely stupid. It was more embarrassing than <b>fisker</b>'s breakdown - at least he has the excuse of being seriously mentally ill and attached to reality by only a thin thread. You're just a baselessly self-important and wrong dick.
 
2013-07-29 11:49:08 AM  

captainktainer: jso2897:Heh. Another sensitive nerve touched. Let the hate flow through you. But if you think it's the well-adjusted adults who don't obsess about these things who look like the "idiots" in these discussions, you are self deluded.

It was a terrible post, and your sorting of "everyone who hates bad UI decisions" into some bullshiat "reactionary personality" category was without grounding and entirely stupid. It was more embarrassing than <b>fisker</b>'s breakdown - at least he has the excuse of being seriously mentally ill and attached to reality by only a thin thread. You're just a baselessly self-important and wrong dick.


You're trying to have an argument with somebody who isn't taking an opposing position. Makes for a dull argument. You need to convince yourself that I am "a self-important and wrtong dick". I don't need for you to be "wrong". It's perfectly OK with me if you want to soak your pillow with tears every night because somebody made a piece of hardware or software that doesn't suit your personal, subjective taste. I just recommend tryng to remember that subjective, personal taste is all there really is in all this gadgetry - there are no objective standards for what technologies will come and go, and when. I am not trying to insult anyone, but neither can I fake caring about something that I find inherently trivial - you may think I'm a jerk, but do you really think I'd be an improvement as a phoney?
People read too much into it when somebody doesn'y buy into a value judgement - it doesn't mean that the person dismisses all value judgments, and it doesn't mean you should feel insulted because they don't make the same value judgments you do. Sometimes I suspect that people on this forum go out of their way to gin up points of diagreement and friction with others just so they can quarrel angrily and say things they can't get away with saying to the people they really hate - their boss, their co-workers, their creepy, so-called "friends", their lying, cheating spouse, etc. I'm sorry, but the emptiness of your life is not my fault, or my problem. Grow up and take responsibility for yourself - you're a big girl now.
 
2013-07-29 11:54:17 AM  

jso2897: You're trying to have an argument with somebody who isn't taking an opposing position. Makes for a dull argument. You need to convince yourself that I am "a self-important and wrtong dick". I don't need for you to be "wrong". It's perfectly OK with me if you want to soak your pillow with tears every night because somebody made a piece of hardware or software that doesn't suit your personal, subjective taste. I just recommend tryng to remember that subjective, personal taste is all there really is in all this gadgetry - there are no objective standards for what technologies will come and go, and when. I am not trying to insult anyone, but neither can I fake caring about something that I find inherently trivial - you may think I'm a jerk, but do you really think I'd be an improvement as a phoney?
People read too much into it when somebody doesn'y buy into a value judgement - it doesn't mean that the person dismisses all value judgments, and it doesn't mean you should feel insulted because they don't make the same value judgments you do. Sometimes I suspect that people on this forum go out of their way to gin up points of diagreement and friction with others just so they can quarrel angrily and say things they can't get away with saying to the people they really hate - their boss, their co-workers, their creepy, so-called "friends", their lying, cheating spouse, etc. I'm sorry, but the emptiness of your life is not my fault, or my problem. Grow up and take responsibility for yourself - you're a big girl now.


That's a lot of marginally pretty words for "Everyone who likes something I don't like is immature" and "everyone who doesn't immediately like something I like is a reactive personality." For "not trying to insult anyone," you've done virtually nothing else, and for all your present bullshiat about "subjective, personal taste," you were mighty quick to sort everyone who hated Windows 8 into a negative pile on the basis of nothing more than your claim that it was easy to use for you.
 
2013-07-29 11:59:18 AM  

captainktainer: jso2897: You're trying to have an argument with somebody who isn't taking an opposing position. Makes for a dull argument. You need to convince yourself that I am "a self-important and wrtong dick". I don't need for you to be "wrong". It's perfectly OK with me if you want to soak your pillow with tears every night because somebody made a piece of hardware or software that doesn't suit your personal, subjective taste. I just recommend tryng to remember that subjective, personal taste is all there really is in all this gadgetry - there are no objective standards for what technologies will come and go, and when. I am not trying to insult anyone, but neither can I fake caring about something that I find inherently trivial - you may think I'm a jerk, but do you really think I'd be an improvement as a phoney?
People read too much into it when somebody doesn'y buy into a value judgement - it doesn't mean that the person dismisses all value judgments, and it doesn't mean you should feel insulted because they don't make the same value judgments you do. Sometimes I suspect that people on this forum go out of their way to gin up points of diagreement and friction with others just so they can quarrel angrily and say things they can't get away with saying to the people they really hate - their boss, their co-workers, their creepy, so-called "friends", their lying, cheating spouse, etc. I'm sorry, but the emptiness of your life is not my fault, or my problem. Grow up and take responsibility for yourself - you're a big girl now.

That's a lot of marginally pretty words for "Everyone who likes something I don't like is immature" and "everyone who doesn't immediately like something I like is a reactive personality." For "not trying to insult anyone," you've done virtually nothing else, and for all your present bullshiat about "subjective, personal taste," you were mighty quick to sort everyone who hated Windows 8 into a negative pile on the basis of nothing more than your claim that ...



It is easy to use.
 
2013-07-29 12:10:46 PM  

oren0: Linux_Yes: .


ignore that user - he is a troll who's schtick is making Linux supporters look like moronic zealots.

Operating system fanbois - no matter who they're adoring - are all annoying.
 
2013-07-29 12:29:31 PM  

bingethinker: jso2897: bingethinker: Shadowknight:

And, let's face it, customer loyalty to them is pretty high among the Apple faithful.  They could announce the next iPhone would give you electric shocks every time in rings instead of vibrating, and a very large amount of their customers would laud it as revolutionary and burn another tribute to Steve Jobs.

A pretty good analysis until you got lazy or tired at the end there, and trotted out the old "Apple fans will buy anything" line. This lame propaganda comes straight from the marketing department of another company. Here's a hint: it's a company that's so bad at creating customer loyalty that they think there's something strange going on when people who bought an Apple product actually want to go back and buy another!

What do you mean "Apple fans will buy anything"?  Apple fans CAN'T buy anything - their credit cards are already maxxed out.

Sorry, this meme does not allow for reality. The iHaters aren't big on logic or common sense.



And Apple isn't big on standard features like a USB or SD slot unless thay can make money off it.

But do go on about 'common sense'.
 
2013-07-29 01:31:44 PM  

fisker: Techhell: jso2897: fisker: Techhell: I hate Windows 8. I hate having to install "apps"... blah blah blah


You might have a better argument going for you if you could do me a small favor and explain to me why I have never had ANY of the farking problems that you are having with Windows 8.

He can't. What you fail to understand is that the adaptive personality and the reactionary personality don't speak the same perceptive "language" - they don't observe the world in the same terms.
Like you, I fail to see what the fuss is with Win8 - but then, I have gone through this with every change in technology that has gone down in my lifetime, and I know other people who uniformly hate every change.
Adaptive personalities don't perceive technology as "territory". We don't feel "invaded" when the way we do something gets arbitrarily changed - we just do it the new way without really reacting on it.
The reactionary personality feels violated when some gadget he uses suddenly works differently - it's perception and perspective, and you can't argue with it because it ISN'T WRONG.
That is all.

You're both morons.

I can't answer <b>fisker</b>'s question because it's a stupid question. "I'm not having trouble with this therefore you're a moron." is essentially what his question is saying.

<b>jso2897</b> is saying essentially the same thing, "Oh, he doesn't like change ergo he's just dumb. Oh, sorry, he's a "reactionary personality". Which I can diagnose because he doesn't like this one change in technology that I happen to have no problems with, ergo he's got a "reactive" personality and feels like Win8 is violating his sense of territory."

I'm sorry, gentlemen - I'm not buying Windows so I can "adapt" to new technology and new software. If I want to adapt to new software, I'll buy a farking Mac or farking Linux. I have expectations of Windows OS's, and they aren't being met by Win8. I don't have a choice in buying Win8 for my farking computers because yo ...


What, did you design that retarded crap or something?  We get it, you like Win8.  That doesn't mean everyone else is going to just because you say so.  I work in an office full of old women.  The switch from XP to Win 7 has been bad enough, you think I want to go through 10x that if we got new computers with Win8?  NOPE.  We are sticking with Win 7 until pretty much hell freezes over at this point.
 
2013-07-29 02:31:39 PM  

Faith Logic Passion: Once, (maybe cause they were getting so tired of having to fix Microsoft's crap) they sent me to Microsoft, and I don't recall getting much help there.


I had that problem with Windows 7 of all things. Kept getting a failure to boot with one of those error codes coming up on the screen, and even the Indian dude following his flowchart on the other end of my call to Microsoft couldn't figure out what the problem was even with the error code available.

(After some extensive troubleshooting and part swapping I figured out it was an intermittent hardware fault that wasn't showing up on diagnostic sweeps.)
 
2013-07-29 09:21:31 PM  

captainktainer: You're just a baselessly self-important and wrong dick.


Yes he is.  I think maybe he thinks this is good trollin, but no, it's just sad and lame.

Thing is, I could sortof somehow see the Steve Jobs dick sucking, not for me but he's charismatic and all that, and Apple does UI really really well.  But sucking Ballmer/Sinofsky dick?  Just how low does your self-esteem have to be??
 
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