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(Knowlege Nuts)   This man was a card carrying Nazi. He was a hero, saving as many as 250,000 Chinese during the Japanese invasion of Nanking. Not a story you'd expect   (knowledgenuts.com) divider line 16
    More: Interesting, Nanjing, Nazis, Oskar Schindler  
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9833 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2013 at 9:29 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-28 02:48:43 PM  
2 votes:

Slartibartfaster: PainfulItching: If the Gestapo was involved, and he was speaking out against one of Germany's allies, I have very strong suspicions he was either forced to stop what he was doing or risk "re-education" in some camp in Poland.

1938

prior to the illegal invasion of poland.. and WAY prior to the japs invading singapore

WW2 started before Dec 7 1941 the date that will on in infamy... to some

//3 years before America started helping
/ thanks for your help we needed you
// and you were not there


Sorry  I was late to the party (I was born 30 years later), but the overwhelming sentiment at the time in the US was that it wasn't our war. A lot of people felt we got dragged into WWI without our shores being threatened, so it was a mistake. The thoughts on Japan, Germany, and Italy doing what they were doing were the same, but Churchill had Roosevelt's ear. Americans were aware of it, but it took Pearl Harbor to flip the coin and really make things happen. That was American troops on American soil.

Previous to that, Lend-Lease was providing planes and other supplies to England so they could hold out as long as possible while President Roosevelt tried to get us into this thing, knowing that Europe was being overrun, as was SE Asia. The issue was, which one to pick. Dodge had stopped producing automobiles in 1941, before December, and was making Jeeps and tanks. The major manufacturers, and many of the smaller ones were gearing up for this, and it did not take them long for everything from ships to uniforms to come flying off the assembly line. Volunteers for all services were lined up at recruiting stations December 8th.

4 months after Pearl Harbor Col. Jimmy Doolittle led an aircraft carrier based bombing run on 6 Japanese cities. Didn't do much damage, but showed Japan that they were not untouchable and pulled their ships back 1000 miles.

No, we did not jump in at the first sign of trouble. Hitler claimed to be reclaiming what was rightfully Germany's to begin with. And he had built up his army and munitions in secret, remember. No one knew his strength. The Japanese had been taking small bites, again in secret. With both of these, it wasn't until they did something bold, like invading Poland or bombing Pearl Harbor that anyone but the top brass knew for sure what their intentions were.

We were not caught flat footed, but due to the neutrality pacts and non-aggression treaties we had in place, The US could not come out swinging, rolling out tanks we hadn't built yet, onto ships we hadn't laid the hulls for yet. But the groundwork was there. In less than a month, most industries were on a wartime footing, and pumping out equipment as fast as men could get through boot camp.
2013-07-28 02:32:24 PM  
2 votes:
We tend to concentrate on the atrocities committed during the war, which were ordered primarily by the nearly psychotic military leaders.

Especially Hitler's crew of merry psychopaths and sadists.

Japan had a long history of extremely strict military discipline, taught soldiers that any enemy who surrendered was weak, not a warrior and not a person and could be treated accordingly. That's one reason why most Japanese soldiers fought to the death. They were taught enemy armies were nearly inhuman, which is why, during one major battle on a Japanese owned island, as the troops fought to the death against the Americans, women and children jumped to their deaths from cliffs rather than face occupation. That had a major demoralizing effect on the astonished US troops.

After WW2, the Japanese government deliberately eliminated it's nefarious acts from the history taught in their schools. The resulting generations of Japanese actually did not know of the war crimes their ancestors did. The Japanese educational system did it's best for years to down play accusations as deliberate misinformation, especially from China, with which they had problems with for centuries.

It's only been within the last decade or so that the truth has been coming out for them, probably due to the overwhelming documentaries on the Internet and changing attitudes.

Not every Nazi soldier was anti-Semitic. The soldiers who staffed the death camps were specifically chosen. Even the Nazi's discovered that taking the average soldier and having him line up and kill unarmed civilians and bury them in mass graves day after day tended to f**k them up badly.

It was an entirely different thing when facing down seasoned armed troops to shooting helpless men, woman and children. The Nazi's started selecting essentially psychopaths as the main guards and administrators of the camps.

Hitler had discovered the advantages of massive propaganda, reinforced by the actions of specially selected believers, killing off rivals and intelligent people who did not agree with him. The limited technology of the time actually worked to his advantage.

You can see comparisons in Stalin, the brutal regime in Vietnam just prior to the Vietcong, Sadaam Hussein and several Chinese Emperors prior to WW1. Even Rome employed some similar techniques. On his own, the average Roman soldier was not interested in conquering every square foot of the then known world just for the ego of the reigning Caser.

In Japan and Germany, recruitment for soldiers was done after an intensive patriotic campaign and as the war went on, the recruits were basically brainwashed into hating anything relating to the enemy. Japan, with it's unique history of Shoguns and Samurai Warriors, the structured way in which it's civilians lived socially, an Emperor who was considered basically a God -- yet curiously enough without the major bad attitude Chinese Emperors tended to have -- along with the centuries long feuds with China, was primed to produce a ruthless military.

Disagreeing with the established propaganda, for a German or Japanese soldier, could produce nasty repercussions not only for him, but his family.

You also need to consider the times and the cultures. In the USA, after the Civil War, the South was basically brutalized and taken advantage of, which did nothing to smooth over the effects of the war. A lack of general education above 4th grade plus medical care with few if any anesthetics or antibiotics meant your average person was used to pain and suffering. Also, education tended to be primarily limited and local.

Look at Teddy Roosevelt. A great president, but also a determined hunter, an aggressive personality with the physical prowess to defend it, which led to him not being willing to turn away from a fight, a previous Rough Rider used to living hard off the land but having had the family means to achieve a quality education.

People looked at things differently because of their environment of the time.

By the time WW2 came about, the world was feeling the effects of the Great Depression, which started in the USA. Banks were throwing folks out of their homes daily and the wealthy were capitalizing by buying up previously expensive properties for a song.

It was a prime time for the criminally psychotic and politically adept to foment war. The average citizen basically got sucked in.

Remember WW1? There are famous tales of the German and US armies ceasing fire during Christmas, coming out of the trenches, exchanging little gifts, food, booze, cigarettes, sharing packages of goodies from home, singing Christmas songs and swapping stories of home.

Just like regular folks.

A day or two later, under orders, guys who had admired pictures of each others kids, drank from the same cup of wine, shared home made cookies and sausages and smoked cigarettes together were back slaughtering each other.

A lot of your regular German soldiers did good things during the war that they will never be recognized for. Many a Nazi chose not to shoot an enemy solder he had lined up in his sights for various reasons. Maybe the soldier was taking a dump. Maybe he was young and scared. Maybe he was just dirty, exhausted and smoking a cigarette and the Nazi empathized.

We'll never know how many average Nazi soldiers declined to follow orders and slaughter anyone they found in houses, knowing their commander would deal with them harshly if he ever found out.

The humane things they did will never be known.
2013-07-28 12:22:34 PM  
2 votes:

instantwin: EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.

In Germany on the other hand, that part of history is teached in a way as to embarass and instill guilt into kids born decades after the fact. Seems the flow of German tax money to the eternal victims will go on for quite a while.

So it seems like the Japanese are better off, doesn't it?


Let's see...The Japanese are almost universally hated by all their neighbors and are only treated with the barest of non-hostility due to their extremely close connection to the U.S...

Meanwhile, the Germans are all but leading the EU and are looked upon as a nation to admire and treated with a great deal of respect, even by those nations that they once conquered and nearly destroyed less than a century ago.

You tell me.
2013-07-28 03:24:42 PM  
1 votes:

indarwinsshadow: It's 11 years since 9/11. I doubt most of you have gotten past the point where you'd like to see most of Al-Qaeda dead or forgiven the perpetrators and their host countries,



I would hope that MOST of us are bright enough to realize that the attacks were planned and executed by a relatively small number of people, and that the vast majority of those that dwell in their "host countries" had no foreknowledge of and no participation in the attacks of 9-11.


indarwinsshadow: or for that matter have got past your deep dislike and mistrust of Muslims.


The notion that "Muslims", as a whole, were responsible for 9-11 is a vicious propaganda myth pumped out to stir up inter-ethnic hatred and whip-up popular support for unjust wars. That so many of us were gullible to fall for these lies reflects poorly on us as a nation.


indarwinsshadow:  I don't blame you in the slightest, since so many died that day and since, in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.


As tragic and evil as the attacks of 9-11 were, those losses pale in comparison to the evil and unjust wars that were prosecuted under the guise of retribution and to "protect us from Terr-rism" - not to mention the collapse of the Rule of Law and loss of our civil liberties domestically. And need I remind you that the allegations that Iraq was somehow involved in 9-11 AND that they possessed WMD's were pernicious LIES that were fed to us to "justify" that totally unjust war?

indarwinsshadow: So, I don't get how the Chinese (or Israelis) could get past the fact that 70 years ago, an entire country of people tried really really hard to exterminate both of them in the most heinous and violent ways possible. I'm not sure I'd have it in me to forgive and move on. I'd still have a lot of hatred in me and want revenge.

Yeah, you go on ahead and writhe in your seething hatred. We've had enough trouble thanks to the lies and hateful, divisive propaganda put out by you and your ilk to serve your own, selfish, manipulate agenda.

Here's a Benjamin Netanyahu quote worth remembering:

"We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," Ma'ariv quoted the former prime minister as saying. He reportedly added that these events "swung American public opinion in our favor."

Well, it's nice to see that the 9-11 attacks and the war in Iraq benefited SOMEONE, because they sure as hell didn't benefit the Iraqis or the Americans, did they?

Keep you hatred, your lies and your manipulative propaganda to yourself, indarwinsshadow.
2013-07-28 02:53:25 PM  
1 votes:

Slartibartfaster: PainfulItching: If the Gestapo was involved, and he was speaking out against one of Germany's allies, I have very strong suspicions he was either forced to stop what he was doing or risk "re-education" in some camp in Poland.

1938

prior to the illegal invasion of poland.. and WAY prior to the japs invading singapore

WW2 started before Dec 7 1941 the date that will on in infamy... to some

//3 years before America started helping
/ thanks for your help we needed you
// and you were not there


Sure we were, we bailed your asses out for the second time in thirty years and did it again after the war was over because you folks were flat broke.

Without the US bankrolling, then joining, the Allies in WW I, Paris would have become a provincial capital in the western reaches of the German Empire and Britain would be a slightly more populated version of Denmark.

Without the US bankrolling, then joining, the Allies in WWII, Germany would still be manning the Atlantic Wall and Britain wouldn't be able to fart without permission from Berlin.

Without the US bankrolling the economies of Europe after WWII, the Red Army would be operating soldiers' resorts on the Atlantic and Mediterranean coasts. If you think FDR dawdled, imagine what would have happened had Willkie won the 1940 election. We would have ignored Europe and finished off Japan by the end of 1944.

We got into Europe's 20th century civil wars as early as politically possible; it's a shame that your interests haven't always lined up with ours, but them's the breaks in a democratic society.
2013-07-28 01:43:24 PM  
1 votes:

Ender's: Wait... there were Nazi cards?


i.telegraph.co.uk
2013-07-28 01:16:09 PM  
1 votes:
It's like being a white southerner in a way. I can't help that I was born in Louisiana. That's just where my parents are from. I've been able to trace back one branch (my dad's side) all the way back to France, no slaveowners there. But I'm white and from the south. My mom's side is a little hazier (spelling of the name could have changed over the years, French thing - yeah, I'm a Cajun) Some of that side may have had farms large enough to own slaves. Not sure though.

I'm not saying it's the same thing, but it's similar. I don't think the way even one or two generations back did. But read the story of the Cajuns. We got kicked around a bit as well. Some are still pissed off about it. Young people too. Even managed to harass the Queen of England for an apology for kicking the original Acadians out of Nova Scotia a few years back. This happened in 1755. Some people can't let stuff go.
2013-07-28 12:45:56 PM  
1 votes:

instantwin: Infernalist: instantwin: EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.

In Germany on the other hand, that part of history is teached in a way as to embarass and instill guilt into kids born decades after the fact. Seems the flow of German tax money to the eternal victims will go on for quite a while.
So it seems like the Japanese are better off, doesn't it?

Let's see...The Japanese are almost universally hated by all their neighbors and are only treated with the barest of non-hostility due to their extremely close connection to the U.S...
Meanwhile, the Germans are all but leading the EU and are looked upon as a nation to admire and treated with a great deal of respect, even by those nations that they once conquered and nearly destroyed less than a century ago.
You tell me.

In circles of economic leaders and well educated people you're probably right. But the economic troubles of the recent years have shown that the press, politicians and general populations of the EU countries continue to see the Germans as the root of all evil. There's no apparent problem as long as Germany continues to finance the Euro. But the behaviour of Greek politicians shows what will happen once that money stops flowing. Because of the indoctrination I mentioned above, German politicians never defend or argue back. For them, Political Correctness means to suck it up.

So yes, I think the Japanese way to ignore the past has advantages, at least for how they feel about themselves.


So, social ego is more important than maintaining a position of world power and authority?  lol  Sorry, but if your nation is more concerned with how they view themselves, as opposed to the pecking order of global power and control, your nation has some farked up priorities.

I'll take Germany over the Japanese six days a week and twice on Sunday.

Also, fark the Greek.  Their idiocy and financial irresponsibility completely disqualifies them as being used an example for anything other than national stupidity and a cultural childishness.
2013-07-28 12:17:17 PM  
1 votes:
Most people really don't grasp just how farked up the whole asian situation is and will be for the foreseeable future.

Especially if the Japanese get out from underneath our thumb and start thinking mostly for themselves again, especially when it comes to their military.
2013-07-28 11:59:48 AM  
1 votes:

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Inquisitive Inquisitor: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: . . . and then he went home to Germany and cavorted merrily as his idol the Fuhrer slaughtered millions of innocents."

THE END

Actually he went home to Germany with evidence of the massacre in order to exert political pressure on the Japanese and prevent future atrocities.  That landed him in the loving hands of the Gestapo.

Oh, I thought he just went home and was questioned by the Gestapo, then released after intervention by influential Nazi officials working for Siemens AG, whereupon he continued to maintain his Nazi party membership and worked during WWII at Siemens, a strong supporter of Hitler and part of the concentration camp labor industry.


To be fair, Siemens stashed him in Afghanistan for a while, then probably had him hiding under a desk at the company HQ until the end of the war. Siemens got him out of China, and with the Gestapo on his ass, he would have never survived had Siemens not kept him on the payroll.

As it is, once the war ended, he was so broke, the survivors in Nanking were sending HIM food and money.
2013-07-28 11:23:36 AM  
1 votes:
2013-07-28 11:14:24 AM  
1 votes:

ronaprhys: Read "The Rape of Nanking".  From what I can tell, it's an even-handed accounting of the atrocities.


I've read that book (and it's excellent and I recommend it), which is what immediately made me click on the link, because I remembered this man, and calling him a "card carrying Nazi," is just a misnomer for someone who was truly an exceptional human being.
2013-07-28 11:08:09 AM  
1 votes:

Arkanaut: Oh, and let's not forget the Bataan Death March -- maybe the Japanese think they just took the American POW's out for an afternoon stroll?


The Japanese military leadership at the time believed that surrendering was an act of cowardice. They were expected to take their own lives to avoid falling into enemy hands. So the order down the line was to treat any surrendering forces (of any nationality) as sub-human. Starvation rations, inhuman living conditions. little to no medical treatment, forced/slave labor, and mass executions. Very much as the nazis saw the Jews. If you were captured while fighting, you were treated better. Not by much, but better. Unless you were an officer. The Japanese had very effective torture, and I do mean torture, techniques.
2013-07-28 11:06:47 AM  
1 votes:
2013-07-28 10:41:56 AM  
1 votes:
At this point in history, the Nazis had not yet set up the Death Camps.  My guess is that there were a lot of guys in the Nazi party who were like, "you know the Nazism party teaches so much what I agree with 90 percent of the time.  I just wish Hitler would shut up about the Jews though.  Well, he doesn't like them, it isn't like he is planning on killing them all or something."  By the time the death camps went into business, too many good Germans probably found themselves in a position where they were powerless to object.
2013-07-28 10:14:58 AM  
1 votes:

miss diminutive: In university I met a Japanese exchange student who claimed that the massacre had never taken place, or in his words "the number of dead and events were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes" or something to that effect.


That attitude may be widespread in Japanese culture. At least, you can see a lot of surprisingly obtuse historical revisionism creep into anime and video games from Japan.
 
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