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(Knowlege Nuts)   This man was a card carrying Nazi. He was a hero, saving as many as 250,000 Chinese during the Japanese invasion of Nanking. Not a story you'd expect   (knowledgenuts.com) divider line 193
    More: Interesting, Nanjing, Nazis, Oskar Schindler  
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9830 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2013 at 9:29 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-28 12:38:37 PM

theMagni: vygramul: ronaprhys: Read "The Rape of Nanking".  From what I can tell, it's an even-handed accounting of the atrocities.

The Japanese object to it. But, then, they have a problem when their desire to ignore everything from about 1930 to 8:14am on August 6, 1945 is trampled upon by reality.

"The Japanese Army was famous for its savagery until we nuked them, and suddenly they remembered they were pacifists."


That's about right, in all honesty.    They love to play victim and hold ceremonies for Hiroshima, but they don't teach their kids about the millions and millions they killed throughout Asia, about Unit 731, about the Rape of Nanking, the Korean Comfort Women, Bataan Death March, etc.

They raped, killed and slaughtered for years.   Their public was given accounts of a beheading contest between two soldiers in China.

But the only thing that apparently matters is Hiroshima, which was a legitimate military target, btw, as was Nagasaki.
 
2013-07-28 12:40:26 PM

proteus_b: fact is, we should have dropped the atomic bombs on tokyo...


Bombing civilians is justified? I'm sure Al Qaeda will be happy to know that.
 
2013-07-28 12:41:39 PM

vygramul: Oldiron_79: Well in all fairness Nazi Germany was one of the biggest backers of China in thier struggle against the Japs prior to the US entering the war.

The Japanese pretty much sent a, "WTF, dude!?" to Hitler early on, and Germany ceased providing all the training and some equipment.


Yeah but the Nazis and the Imperial Chinese where still buds for years.
 
2013-07-28 12:42:33 PM

Infernalist: instantwin: EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.

In Germany on the other hand, that part of history is teached in a way as to embarass and instill guilt into kids born decades after the fact. Seems the flow of German tax money to the eternal victims will go on for quite a while.
So it seems like the Japanese are better off, doesn't it?

Let's see...The Japanese are almost universally hated by all their neighbors and are only treated with the barest of non-hostility due to their extremely close connection to the U.S...
Meanwhile, the Germans are all but leading the EU and are looked upon as a nation to admire and treated with a great deal of respect, even by those nations that they once conquered and nearly destroyed less than a century ago.
You tell me.


In circles of economic leaders and well educated people you're probably right. But the economic troubles of the recent years have shown that the press, politicians and general populations of the EU countries continue to see the Germans as the root of all evil. There's no apparent problem as long as Germany continues to finance the Euro. But the behaviour of Greek politicians shows what will happen once that money stops flowing. Because of the indoctrination I mentioned above, German politicians never defend or argue back. For them, Political Correctness means to suck it up.

So yes, I think the Japanese way to ignore the past has advantages, at least for how they feel about themselves.
 
2013-07-28 12:45:56 PM

instantwin: Infernalist: instantwin: EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.

In Germany on the other hand, that part of history is teached in a way as to embarass and instill guilt into kids born decades after the fact. Seems the flow of German tax money to the eternal victims will go on for quite a while.
So it seems like the Japanese are better off, doesn't it?

Let's see...The Japanese are almost universally hated by all their neighbors and are only treated with the barest of non-hostility due to their extremely close connection to the U.S...
Meanwhile, the Germans are all but leading the EU and are looked upon as a nation to admire and treated with a great deal of respect, even by those nations that they once conquered and nearly destroyed less than a century ago.
You tell me.

In circles of economic leaders and well educated people you're probably right. But the economic troubles of the recent years have shown that the press, politicians and general populations of the EU countries continue to see the Germans as the root of all evil. There's no apparent problem as long as Germany continues to finance the Euro. But the behaviour of Greek politicians shows what will happen once that money stops flowing. Because of the indoctrination I mentioned above, German politicians never defend or argue back. For them, Political Correctness means to suck it up.

So yes, I think the Japanese way to ignore the past has advantages, at least for how they feel about themselves.


So, social ego is more important than maintaining a position of world power and authority?  lol  Sorry, but if your nation is more concerned with how they view themselves, as opposed to the pecking order of global power and control, your nation has some farked up priorities.

I'll take Germany over the Japanese six days a week and twice on Sunday.

Also, fark the Greek.  Their idiocy and financial irresponsibility completely disqualifies them as being used an example for anything other than national stupidity and a cultural childishness.
 
2013-07-28 12:47:33 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: There's still a billion of them.


count again

1.3 in this country, Im gussing (totally uneducated but based on living in San Francisco and Vancouver, Canada.... at least half a billion elsewhere.

I recently went to Nanjing (the western spelling of Nanking is a touch ignorant) and visited their museum on the massacre and rape ... the thing that shocked me (I had already learned about that Japanese atrocity previously and the admriable work the Germans, Americans, and British did to try to help ... oh and some Dutch etc) was how many OTHER massacres the Japanese commited during the same period.

They made the nazis look like pussies.

Hard to walk out of that exhibit without hating the Japs... but I did it and realized that my Japanese friends were not alive when this crap happened.
 
2013-07-28 12:49:56 PM

Likwit: Infernalist: Likwit: miss diminutive: In university I met a Japanese exchange student who claimed that the massacre had never taken place, or in his words "the number of dead and events were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes" or something to that effect.

I was essentially speechless. I guess every country has a few people who just don't believe in moon landings/Holocausts/gravity.

Nope. In Japan, it's nearly the whole country. And if they don't deny it, they probably just don't know about it. It's a silly place.

It's getting worse, too, the further we get from the actual events.  There used to be a deep-ingrained shame over their war atrocities, something forced onto them by the occupying Allied forces for a few generations, but that's fading away.

They're increasingly more in favor of having their own military again, too, and 'that' little development might well be the root cause of WWIII.

I'm actually in school over here studying Brazilian immigrants. It's pretty brutal.

Anyways, I came across an interesting study on nationalism when I was dicking around in the school archives. They looked at patriotism (defined by a series of 12 quesions asking about love for one's nation, people, democracy, immigration, and confidence in the political system) and the correlation it had to ethnic exclusionism (determined through further questioning). There were a lot of surprising things, like European countries having little correlation between education level and ethnic exclusionism, or patriotism having no correlation or even negative correlation with exclusionism in many cases. Japan was by far the worst. They had the most disagree and strongly disagree answers to "political refugees should be allowed to remain in your country." They had the most agree and strongly agree answers to "people should support the government even if it is in the wrong." It was also one of only 2 countries (the other being our old pal Germany) where patriotism was positively correlat ...


Pre-war. the Japanese described themselves as a pure race (Yamato), No woman was to marry a foreigner, (Some claim that even though Okinawa is part of Japan, the people who live there are not Japanese, and are therefore, foreign). There are indigenous cultures there that have all but been eradicated (Ainu). These things are going on currently.

Japan, for a non Japanese, seems to be one of those "A nice place to visit but you wouldn't want to live there" type of places. Custom requires hospitality, but you probably don't want to wear out your welcome.

So I don't know if it's patriotism, or plain old xenophobia that's been passed down through families.
 
2013-07-28 12:50:04 PM

Slartibartfaster: AverageAmericanGuy: There's still a billion of them.

count again

1.3 in this country, Im gussing (totally uneducated but based on living in San Francisco and Vancouver, Canada.... at least half a billion elsewhere.

I recently went to Nanjing (the western spelling of Nanking is a touch ignorant) and visited their museum on the massacre and rape ... the thing that shocked me (I had already learned about that Japanese atrocity previously and the admriable work the Germans, Americans, and British did to try to help ... oh and some Dutch etc) was how many OTHER massacres the Japanese commited during the same period.

They made the nazis look like pussies.

Hard to walk out of that exhibit without hating the Japs... but I did it and realized that my Japanese friends were not alive when this crap happened.


Imagine how much harder it'd be if your older relatives were some of the victims of those atrocities.

I don't condone national hatred, but I can certainly comprehend it in the case of Japan and its atrocities.
 
2013-07-28 12:52:52 PM

Pacfanweb: they don't teach their kids about the millions and millions they killed throughout Asia


yes they do

It is propaganda (from several sides) that says they do not

Many of them are VERY aware (and sorry) for what their asshole grandparents did... ask one
But realize that it was not the ones alive that did it (mostly)
 
2013-07-28 01:02:30 PM
John Rabe also had a Japanese equivalent, Chiune Sugihara, who saved thousands of Jews (it's not sure how many, since many of the passports he wrote were for entire families). He lived longer than Raabe, but eked out a pretty meager existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_Sugihara

From my understanding, whether or not you learn about Japanese atrocities in textbooks largely depends on where you go to school. Some discuss them, others do not.
 
2013-07-28 01:03:51 PM

Infernalist: bikkurikun: miss diminutive: In university I met a Japanese exchange student who claimed that the massacre had never taken place, or in his words "the number of dead and events were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes" or something to that effect.

I was essentially speechless. I guess every country has a few people who just don't believe in moon landings/Holocausts/gravity.

Well it is true. The Chinese claim 200.000 dead, while in reality it were probably only a meagre 100.000 or so.

I lived in both Japan and Nanjing/Nanking, and I had a few Japanese friends visiting me while I was there, and of course the first thing I did was to take them to the memorial museum. They were in complete shock afterwards since they had never thought it might be true.

Oh, only 100k dead?  Is that all?


It's China. They can lose that many on any given weekend and not even notice.
 
2013-07-28 01:09:04 PM

Slartibartfaster: yes they do

It is propaganda (from several sides) that says they do not

Many of them are VERY aware (and sorry) for what their asshole grandparents did... ask one
But realize that it was not the ones alive that did it (mostly)


Uhm. Okay.

The Japanese have done nothing worthy of respect when dealing with their war criminals. When they died, they were enshrined with full military honors. Many high ranking officers who participated in such had active roles in the post-war society. Japanese nationalist politicians, businessmen, and entertainment companies regularly make mention of such "western lies" and incorporate it into their works and products (on the entertainment side, Manga and Anime are very guilty of this).

War crime apologetics and denial is a way the Japanese have been able to snub the west for years.
 
2013-07-28 01:09:30 PM

Slartibartfaster: Pacfanweb: they don't teach their kids about the millions and millions they killed throughout Asia

yes they do

It is propaganda (from several sides) that says they do not

Many of them are VERY aware (and sorry) for what their asshole grandparents did... ask one
But realize that it was not the ones alive that did it (mostly)


No, they really don't.  Most of the events are glossed over.   There might be some exceptions, but for the most part, it is true.
 
2013-07-28 01:11:53 PM
The attack on Pearl Harbor is treated in much the same way.  It's explained as a logical and natural response to the illegal efforts by Western powers to deny them the oil that they needed for their legitimate national defense program.
 
2013-07-28 01:14:04 PM

Infernalist: Oh, only 100k dead? Is that all?


Decapitation contests took a while. The Chinamen also were valuable for bayonet training. You can only do so much training in a day. It also took a while to rape & massacre the women and girls.

/The International Military Tribunal for the Far East says 200K+ (according to wikipedia)
 
2013-07-28 01:14:19 PM

vygramul: ronaprhys: Read "The Rape of Nanking".  From what I can tell, it's an even-handed accounting of the atrocities.

The Japanese object to it. But, then, they have a problem when their desire to ignore everything from about 1930 to 8:14am on August 6, 1945 is trampled upon by reality.


We were all on vacation in china!

Punch was served; ask china!
 
2013-07-28 01:16:09 PM
It's like being a white southerner in a way. I can't help that I was born in Louisiana. That's just where my parents are from. I've been able to trace back one branch (my dad's side) all the way back to France, no slaveowners there. But I'm white and from the south. My mom's side is a little hazier (spelling of the name could have changed over the years, French thing - yeah, I'm a Cajun) Some of that side may have had farms large enough to own slaves. Not sure though.

I'm not saying it's the same thing, but it's similar. I don't think the way even one or two generations back did. But read the story of the Cajuns. We got kicked around a bit as well. Some are still pissed off about it. Young people too. Even managed to harass the Queen of England for an apology for kicking the original Acadians out of Nova Scotia a few years back. This happened in 1755. Some people can't let stuff go.
 
2013-07-28 01:28:15 PM
PainfulItching:
To be fair, Siemens stashed him in Afghanistan for a while, then probably had him hiding under a desk at the company HQ until the end of the war. Siemens got him out of China, and with the Gestapo on his ass, he would have never survived had Siemens not kept him on the payroll.

As it is, once the war ended, he was so broke, the survivors in Nanking were sending HIM food and money.


Granted, the Gestapo interrogated him over his speeches about Nanking, but I don't see any evidence that he was in danger of losing his life over it, particularly considering that they didn't even make him turn over his materials documenting the Nanking atrocities when he was released.

And I'm sure that Rabe is an admirable person for what he did in Nanking, but he's certainly a very flawed hero.  He remained a loyal Nazi upon his return to Germany, was a company officer for Siemens, and worked in Berlin through most of the war.  It's quite unlikely that he wasn't very aware of the extent of the Final Solution and Siemens' role in it.  Maybe he wasn't fully privy to knowledge of Siemens involvement in the death camps, but he was an upper level part of a organization that strongly supported Hitler and the Nazi pogrom.  I can understand why even a man of courage would find it difficult to stand up to the widespread evil perpetrated by Hitler and the Nazis, but I don't think the story of John Rabe ends when he left Nanking.  The reality is that he enjoyed his party status during the Holocaust and benefited from Siemens' support of Hitler and use of concentration camp labor.  He didn't denounce his Nazi party membership until after the war, as required by the allies during the de-Nazification process.

He's a hero for his acts in Nanking, but I think the whole picture of Rabe must include his less than heroic conduct after Nanking.  I don't think it's reason to condemn him or ignore his selfless acts to protect the Chinese, but it's not like he returned to Germany and became a champion of human rights in spite of persecution by the Gestapo.  They just told him to keep his mouth shut about Japan's atrocities and GBTW.  So he shut up and went back to work for a major Nazi supporter of Hitler.
 
2013-07-28 01:30:18 PM

Pacfanweb: Slartibartfaster: Pacfanweb: they don't teach their kids about the millions and millions they killed throughout Asia

yes they do

It is propaganda (from several sides) that says they do not

Many of them are VERY aware (and sorry) for what their asshole grandparents did... ask one
But realize that it was not the ones alive that did it (mostly)

No, they really don't.  Most of the events are glossed over.   There might be some exceptions, but for the most part, it is true.


where are you getting this information from ?
 
2013-07-28 01:31:23 PM

Infernalist: instantwin: Infernalist: instantwin: EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.

In Germany on the other hand, that part of history is teached in a way as to embarass and instill guilt into kids born decades after the fact. Seems the flow of German tax money to the eternal victims will go on for quite a while.
So it seems like the Japanese are better off, doesn't it?

Let's see...The Japanese are almost universally hated by all their neighbors and are only treated with the barest of non-hostility due to their extremely close connection to the U.S...
Meanwhile, the Germans are all but leading the EU and are looked upon as a nation to admire and treated with a great deal of respect, even by those nations that they once conquered and nearly destroyed less than a century ago.
You tell me.

In circles of economic leaders and well educated people you're probably right. But the economic troubles of the recent years have shown that the press, politicians and general populations of the EU countries continue to see the Germans as the root of all evil. There's no apparent problem as long as Germany continues to finance the Euro. But the behaviour of Greek politicians shows what will happen once that money stops flowing. Because of the indoctrination I mentioned above, German politicians never defend or argue back. For them, Political Correctness means to suck it up.
So yes, I think the Japanese way to ignore the past has advantages, at least for how they feel about themselves.

So, social ego is more important than maintaining a position of world power and authority?


No, but neither Japan nor Germany have "a position of world power and authority". They're both still under control of the US and only partially sovereign. They both prospered despite losing WW2. The only difference is that the latter still pay the price for what their grandparents did, morally AND with money.
 
2013-07-28 01:37:38 PM

instantwin: Infernalist: instantwin: Infernalist: instantwin: EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.

In Germany on the other hand, that part of history is teached in a way as to embarass and instill guilt into kids born decades after the fact. Seems the flow of German tax money to the eternal victims will go on for quite a while.
So it seems like the Japanese are better off, doesn't it?

Let's see...The Japanese are almost universally hated by all their neighbors and are only treated with the barest of non-hostility due to their extremely close connection to the U.S...
Meanwhile, the Germans are all but leading the EU and are looked upon as a nation to admire and treated with a great deal of respect, even by those nations that they once conquered and nearly destroyed less than a century ago.
You tell me.

In circles of economic leaders and well educated people you're probably right. But the economic troubles of the recent years have shown that the press, politicians and general populations of the EU countries continue to see the Germans as the root of all evil. There's no apparent problem as long as Germany continues to finance the Euro. But the behaviour of Greek politicians shows what will happen once that money stops flowing. Because of the indoctrination I mentioned above, German politicians never defend or argue back. For them, Political Correctness means to suck it up.
So yes, I think the Japanese way to ignore the past has advantages, at least for how they feel about themselves.

So, social ego is more important than maintaining a position of world power and authority?

No, but neither Japan nor Germany have "a position of world power and authority". They're both still under control of the US and only partially sovereign. They both prospered despite losing WW2. The only difference is that the latter still pay the price for what their grandparents did, morally AND with money.


They're not the world's only Superpower, but there are quite a few nations that'll listen to the Germans before they listen to the U.S.  And their influence grows every year, not marginally because they're 'not the US'.

Japan, on the other hand, has influence, but not the positive kind, especially in the Asian sphere.  They sit at the center of quite a bit of long-term quiet animosity directed toward them by nearly every neighbor.
 
2013-07-28 01:42:58 PM

leevis: Readers Digest had a good article about him several years ago. He came across as a pretty decent person.


Nazi =/= life hating evil full-time murder fan. A lot of Germans were Nazis like a lot of Americans are Republicans.
 
2013-07-28 01:43:17 PM

legion_of_doo: Decapitation contests took a while. The Chinamen also were valuable for bayonet training. You can only do so much training in a day. It also took a while to rape & massacre the women and girls.

/The International Military Tribunal for the Far East says 200K+ (according to wikipedia)


The decapitation contest took one day, they were seating, the rapes too several days.

There was more than one decapitation contest but harder to prove so I wont claim it

The bayonet training was recorded for at least one day (by the nazis) but in some (unrecorded cases) was performed on pregnant women before necrophelia ... could be the fog of war so again I will NOT claim this one but there were photos of the foetuses ... These ones I will not claim

With regards to the millitary tribunal though, 200k ... please research the unrecorded burials. It was a priority to bury quickly (as demonstrated during previous massacres) There is at least a 50% consideration available. The Japanese and the Chinese were quickly burning bodies to avoid water contamination (and international law) this is well documented,

The conservative estimations are 300k
Which makes it worse (on a daily per capita) than the jewish holocaust.
I dont mean to say that the nazis were cool (they were not) but even they said "dude really ?"

// The japs have the record for being the most racist assholes ever - and they are generally sorry for that
/ the nazis and their racist and genetic and homophobic experiments were TERRIBLE but second for what the japs did
 
2013-07-28 01:43:24 PM

Ender's: Wait... there were Nazi cards?


i.telegraph.co.uk
 
2013-07-28 01:51:25 PM

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: PainfulItching:
To be fair, Siemens stashed him in Afghanistan for a while, then probably had him hiding under a desk at the company HQ until the end of the war. Siemens got him out of China, and with the Gestapo on his ass, he would have never survived had Siemens not kept him on the payroll.

As it is, once the war ended, he was so broke, the survivors in Nanking were sending HIM food and money.

Granted, the Gestapo interrogated him over his speeches about Nanking, but I don't see any evidence that he was in danger of losing his life over it, particularly considering that they didn't even make him turn over his materials documenting the Nanking atrocities when he was released.

And I'm sure that Rabe is an admirable person for what he did in Nanking, but he's certainly a very flawed hero.  He remained a loyal Nazi upon his return to Germany, was a company officer for Siemens, and worked in Berlin through most of the war.  It's quite unlikely that he wasn't very aware of the extent of the Final Solution and Siemens' role in it.  Maybe he wasn't fully privy to knowledge of Siemens involvement in the death camps, but he was an upper level part of a organization that strongly supported Hitler and the Nazi pogrom.  I can understand why even a man of courage would find it difficult to stand up to the widespread evil perpetrated by Hitler and the Nazis, but I don't think the story of John Rabe ends when he left Nanking.  The reality is that he enjoyed his party status during the Holocaust and benefited from Siemens' support of Hitler and use of concentration camp labor.  He didn't denounce his Nazi party membership until after the war, as required by the allies during the de-Nazification process.

He's a hero for his acts in Nanking, but I think the whole picture of Rabe must include his less than heroic conduct after Nanking.  I don't think it's reason to condemn him or ignore his selfless acts to protect the Chinese, but it's not like he returned to Germany and became ...


If the Gestapo was involved, and he was speaking out against one of Germany's allies, I have very strong suspicions he was either forced to stop what he was doing or risk "re-education" in some camp in Poland.
 
2013-07-28 01:56:47 PM

Gyrfalcon: Nazi =/= life hating evil full-time murder fan. A lot of Germans were Nazis like a lot of Americans are Republicans.


Thanks?
 
2013-07-28 01:59:30 PM

PainfulItching: If the Gestapo was involved, and he was speaking out against one of Germany's allies, I have very strong suspicions he was either forced to stop what he was doing or risk "re-education" in some camp in Poland.


1938

prior to the illegal invasion of poland.. and WAY prior to the japs invading singapore

WW2 started before Dec 7 1941 the date that will on in infamy... to some

//3 years before America started helping
/ thanks for your help we needed you
// and you were not there
 
2013-07-28 02:23:28 PM
shindrer's rist?
 
2013-07-28 02:23:35 PM

Gyrfalcon: leevis: Readers Digest had a good article about him several years ago. He came across as a pretty decent person.

Nazi =/= life hating evil full-time murder fan. A lot of Germans were Nazis like a lot of Americans are Republicans.


LOL@Godwin
 
2013-07-28 02:28:03 PM

indarwinsshadow: It's 11 years since 9/11. I doubt most of you have gotten past the point where you'd like to see most of Al-Qaeda dead or forgiven the perpetrators and their host countries, or for that matter have got past your deep dislike and mistrust of Muslims. I don't blame you in the slightest, since so many died that day and since, in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. So, I don't get how the Chinese (or Israelis) could get past the fact that 70 years ago, an entire country of people tried really really hard to exterminate both of them in the most heinous and violent ways possible. I'm not sure I'd have it in me to forgive and move on. I'd still have a lot of hatred in me and want revenge.


That's why I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah.
 
2013-07-28 02:32:24 PM
We tend to concentrate on the atrocities committed during the war, which were ordered primarily by the nearly psychotic military leaders.

Especially Hitler's crew of merry psychopaths and sadists.

Japan had a long history of extremely strict military discipline, taught soldiers that any enemy who surrendered was weak, not a warrior and not a person and could be treated accordingly. That's one reason why most Japanese soldiers fought to the death. They were taught enemy armies were nearly inhuman, which is why, during one major battle on a Japanese owned island, as the troops fought to the death against the Americans, women and children jumped to their deaths from cliffs rather than face occupation. That had a major demoralizing effect on the astonished US troops.

After WW2, the Japanese government deliberately eliminated it's nefarious acts from the history taught in their schools. The resulting generations of Japanese actually did not know of the war crimes their ancestors did. The Japanese educational system did it's best for years to down play accusations as deliberate misinformation, especially from China, with which they had problems with for centuries.

It's only been within the last decade or so that the truth has been coming out for them, probably due to the overwhelming documentaries on the Internet and changing attitudes.

Not every Nazi soldier was anti-Semitic. The soldiers who staffed the death camps were specifically chosen. Even the Nazi's discovered that taking the average soldier and having him line up and kill unarmed civilians and bury them in mass graves day after day tended to f**k them up badly.

It was an entirely different thing when facing down seasoned armed troops to shooting helpless men, woman and children. The Nazi's started selecting essentially psychopaths as the main guards and administrators of the camps.

Hitler had discovered the advantages of massive propaganda, reinforced by the actions of specially selected believers, killing off rivals and intelligent people who did not agree with him. The limited technology of the time actually worked to his advantage.

You can see comparisons in Stalin, the brutal regime in Vietnam just prior to the Vietcong, Sadaam Hussein and several Chinese Emperors prior to WW1. Even Rome employed some similar techniques. On his own, the average Roman soldier was not interested in conquering every square foot of the then known world just for the ego of the reigning Caser.

In Japan and Germany, recruitment for soldiers was done after an intensive patriotic campaign and as the war went on, the recruits were basically brainwashed into hating anything relating to the enemy. Japan, with it's unique history of Shoguns and Samurai Warriors, the structured way in which it's civilians lived socially, an Emperor who was considered basically a God -- yet curiously enough without the major bad attitude Chinese Emperors tended to have -- along with the centuries long feuds with China, was primed to produce a ruthless military.

Disagreeing with the established propaganda, for a German or Japanese soldier, could produce nasty repercussions not only for him, but his family.

You also need to consider the times and the cultures. In the USA, after the Civil War, the South was basically brutalized and taken advantage of, which did nothing to smooth over the effects of the war. A lack of general education above 4th grade plus medical care with few if any anesthetics or antibiotics meant your average person was used to pain and suffering. Also, education tended to be primarily limited and local.

Look at Teddy Roosevelt. A great president, but also a determined hunter, an aggressive personality with the physical prowess to defend it, which led to him not being willing to turn away from a fight, a previous Rough Rider used to living hard off the land but having had the family means to achieve a quality education.

People looked at things differently because of their environment of the time.

By the time WW2 came about, the world was feeling the effects of the Great Depression, which started in the USA. Banks were throwing folks out of their homes daily and the wealthy were capitalizing by buying up previously expensive properties for a song.

It was a prime time for the criminally psychotic and politically adept to foment war. The average citizen basically got sucked in.

Remember WW1? There are famous tales of the German and US armies ceasing fire during Christmas, coming out of the trenches, exchanging little gifts, food, booze, cigarettes, sharing packages of goodies from home, singing Christmas songs and swapping stories of home.

Just like regular folks.

A day or two later, under orders, guys who had admired pictures of each others kids, drank from the same cup of wine, shared home made cookies and sausages and smoked cigarettes together were back slaughtering each other.

A lot of your regular German soldiers did good things during the war that they will never be recognized for. Many a Nazi chose not to shoot an enemy solder he had lined up in his sights for various reasons. Maybe the soldier was taking a dump. Maybe he was young and scared. Maybe he was just dirty, exhausted and smoking a cigarette and the Nazi empathized.

We'll never know how many average Nazi soldiers declined to follow orders and slaughter anyone they found in houses, knowing their commander would deal with them harshly if he ever found out.

The humane things they did will never be known.
 
2013-07-28 02:39:24 PM

Slartibartfaster: I recently went to Nanjing (the western spelling of Nanking is a touch ignorant) [...]


Is it, now.  When you're speaking about Florence do you call it Firenze? What about Japan--do you call it Nihon?  "Japan" is just an ignorant Dutch rendition of the Portuguese "Japao", which was an ignoration rendition of chinese "jih hun". Nihon.  And what about the French (who still call Bejing Pékin).

People need to stop being butthurt when foreigners decide not to use the exact naming and pronunciation of the natives.  It's allowed, and it's okay.
 
2013-07-28 02:45:01 PM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: At this point in history, the Nazis had not yet set up the Death Camps.  My guess is that there were a lot of guys in the Nazi party who were like, "you know the Nazism party teaches so much what I agree with 90 percent of the time.  I just wish Hitler would shut up about the Jews though.  Well, he doesn't like them, it isn't like he is planning on killing them all or something."  By the time the death camps went into business, too many good Germans probably found themselves in a position where they were powerless to object.


Basically. Never forget, there's a  reason people get sucked into this sort of shiat--it  looks reasonable on the surface. And if you grow up in a culture where, I kid you not, math class is propaganda time, it'll look even more normal.

We don't need to worry about someone coming in and screaming 'Heil Hitler' to bring fascism around again. We need to worry about the folks who look sane and in practice really aren't.
 
2013-07-28 02:45:22 PM

Rik01: We'll never know how many average Nazi soldiers declined to follow orders and slaughter anyone they found in houses, knowing their commander would deal with them harshly if he ever found out.


Actually, of the thousands of diaries, personal accounts, interviews, and so on that have been conducted, not a single instance of a soldier being punished for refusing to kill a Jew has come up. It's an interesting psychological thing, you see. It's not that they were bloodthirsty villains. It's that they mostly did it for the same reason a G.I. got into the landing-craft: all his buddies were doing it. They didn't want to let them down, let them suffer alone. And many specialized units for slaughtering Jews were plied with metric assloads of alcohol afterwards, because the higher-ups knew damn well it was crushing morale and they needed a way to medicate the pain away.

Were there evil, sadistic farks? You bet. Entire units of 'em. But a lot of these young men were terribly traumatized by what the regime had them doing.
 
2013-07-28 02:46:23 PM
Rik01: .....Remember WW1? There are famous tales of the German and USBritish armies ceasing fire during Christmas, coming out of the trenches, exchanging little gifts, food, booze, cigarettes, sharing packages of goodies from home, singing Christmas songs and swapping stories of home.....

FTFY. Important to point out that this famous incident happened a full 3 years before the US joined the war effort.

/doesn't change you basic point.
 
2013-07-28 02:48:43 PM

Slartibartfaster: PainfulItching: If the Gestapo was involved, and he was speaking out against one of Germany's allies, I have very strong suspicions he was either forced to stop what he was doing or risk "re-education" in some camp in Poland.

1938

prior to the illegal invasion of poland.. and WAY prior to the japs invading singapore

WW2 started before Dec 7 1941 the date that will on in infamy... to some

//3 years before America started helping
/ thanks for your help we needed you
// and you were not there


Sorry  I was late to the party (I was born 30 years later), but the overwhelming sentiment at the time in the US was that it wasn't our war. A lot of people felt we got dragged into WWI without our shores being threatened, so it was a mistake. The thoughts on Japan, Germany, and Italy doing what they were doing were the same, but Churchill had Roosevelt's ear. Americans were aware of it, but it took Pearl Harbor to flip the coin and really make things happen. That was American troops on American soil.

Previous to that, Lend-Lease was providing planes and other supplies to England so they could hold out as long as possible while President Roosevelt tried to get us into this thing, knowing that Europe was being overrun, as was SE Asia. The issue was, which one to pick. Dodge had stopped producing automobiles in 1941, before December, and was making Jeeps and tanks. The major manufacturers, and many of the smaller ones were gearing up for this, and it did not take them long for everything from ships to uniforms to come flying off the assembly line. Volunteers for all services were lined up at recruiting stations December 8th.

4 months after Pearl Harbor Col. Jimmy Doolittle led an aircraft carrier based bombing run on 6 Japanese cities. Didn't do much damage, but showed Japan that they were not untouchable and pulled their ships back 1000 miles.

No, we did not jump in at the first sign of trouble. Hitler claimed to be reclaiming what was rightfully Germany's to begin with. And he had built up his army and munitions in secret, remember. No one knew his strength. The Japanese had been taking small bites, again in secret. With both of these, it wasn't until they did something bold, like invading Poland or bombing Pearl Harbor that anyone but the top brass knew for sure what their intentions were.

We were not caught flat footed, but due to the neutrality pacts and non-aggression treaties we had in place, The US could not come out swinging, rolling out tanks we hadn't built yet, onto ships we hadn't laid the hulls for yet. But the groundwork was there. In less than a month, most industries were on a wartime footing, and pumping out equipment as fast as men could get through boot camp.
 
2013-07-28 02:53:25 PM

Slartibartfaster: PainfulItching: If the Gestapo was involved, and he was speaking out against one of Germany's allies, I have very strong suspicions he was either forced to stop what he was doing or risk "re-education" in some camp in Poland.

1938

prior to the illegal invasion of poland.. and WAY prior to the japs invading singapore

WW2 started before Dec 7 1941 the date that will on in infamy... to some

//3 years before America started helping
/ thanks for your help we needed you
// and you were not there


Sure we were, we bailed your asses out for the second time in thirty years and did it again after the war was over because you folks were flat broke.

Without the US bankrolling, then joining, the Allies in WW I, Paris would have become a provincial capital in the western reaches of the German Empire and Britain would be a slightly more populated version of Denmark.

Without the US bankrolling, then joining, the Allies in WWII, Germany would still be manning the Atlantic Wall and Britain wouldn't be able to fart without permission from Berlin.

Without the US bankrolling the economies of Europe after WWII, the Red Army would be operating soldiers' resorts on the Atlantic and Mediterranean coasts. If you think FDR dawdled, imagine what would have happened had Willkie won the 1940 election. We would have ignored Europe and finished off Japan by the end of 1944.

We got into Europe's 20th century civil wars as early as politically possible; it's a shame that your interests haven't always lined up with ours, but them's the breaks in a democratic society.
 
2013-07-28 02:54:57 PM

Slartibartfaster: //3 years before America started helping
/ thanks for your help we needed you
// and you were not there


I keep getting confused. Are we supposed to be world cop or not?

/I guess feeding and arming don't count as help unless it's to Israel
 
2013-07-28 03:05:36 PM
And I stand corrected. In 1938, the re-education camps were still only in Germany.
 
2013-07-28 03:13:13 PM

Slartibartfaster: PainfulItching: If the Gestapo was involved, and he was speaking out against one of Germany's allies, I have very strong suspicions he was either forced to stop what he was doing or risk "re-education" in some camp in Poland.

1938

prior to the illegal invasion of poland.. and WAY prior to the japs invading singapore

WW2 started before Dec 7 1941 the date that will on in infamy... to some

//3 years before America started helping
/ thanks for your help we needed you
// and you were not there


You're welcome. Thanks for paying your bills for all the pre-1941 help we provided. If you're English. Pretty sure everyone else still owes.

You know, we could have sat it out. Yeah, the Philippines was an embarrassment, but we didn't really need them. We could have just held Japan at Midway and gone "neener-neener" to Hitler and Mussolini from across three thousand miles of ocean. We didn't have to help you at all.
 
2013-07-28 03:14:40 PM

Rik01: the brutal regime in Vietnam just prior to the Vietcong


After the Vietcong was pretty brutal too. Ho Chi didn't hesitate to start throwing a shiatload of people into camps for "reeducation".

Rik01: and several Chinese Emperors prior to WW1


I don't think they compare to what Mao put the country through.
 
2013-07-28 03:16:13 PM

fastbow: Slartibartfaster: PainfulItching: If the Gestapo was involved, and he was speaking out against one of Germany's allies, I have very strong suspicions he was either forced to stop what he was doing or risk "re-education" in some camp in Poland.

1938

prior to the illegal invasion of poland.. and WAY prior to the japs invading singapore

WW2 started before Dec 7 1941 the date that will on in infamy... to some

//3 years before America started helping
/ thanks for your help we needed you
// and you were not there

You're welcome. Thanks for paying your bills for all the pre-1941 help we provided. If you're English. Pretty sure everyone else still owes.

You know, we could have sat it out. Yeah, the Philippines was an embarrassment, but we didn't really need them. We could have just held Japan at Midway and gone "neener-neener" to Hitler and Mussolini from across three thousand miles of ocean. We didn't have to help you at all.


Yeah, that's about the dumbest comment of the thread.  Congratulations.
 
2013-07-28 03:18:43 PM

fastbow: Slartibartfaster: PainfulItching: If the Gestapo was involved, and he was speaking out against one of Germany's allies, I have very strong suspicions he was either forced to stop what he was doing or risk "re-education" in some camp in Poland.

1938

prior to the illegal invasion of poland.. and WAY prior to the japs invading singapore

WW2 started before Dec 7 1941 the date that will on in infamy... to some

//3 years before America started helping
/ thanks for your help we needed you
// and you were not there

You're welcome. Thanks for paying your bills for all the pre-1941 help we provided. If you're English. Pretty sure everyone else still owes.

You know, we could have sat it out. Yeah, the Philippines was an embarrassment, but we didn't really need them. We could have just held Japan at Midway and gone "neener-neener" to Hitler and Mussolini from across three thousand miles of ocean. We didn't have to help you at all.


b b b bbbut.... NASA? How would we have beaten the Ruskies to the moon and have all the neat satellite stuff?
 
2013-07-28 03:24:42 PM

indarwinsshadow: It's 11 years since 9/11. I doubt most of you have gotten past the point where you'd like to see most of Al-Qaeda dead or forgiven the perpetrators and their host countries,



I would hope that MOST of us are bright enough to realize that the attacks were planned and executed by a relatively small number of people, and that the vast majority of those that dwell in their "host countries" had no foreknowledge of and no participation in the attacks of 9-11.


indarwinsshadow: or for that matter have got past your deep dislike and mistrust of Muslims.


The notion that "Muslims", as a whole, were responsible for 9-11 is a vicious propaganda myth pumped out to stir up inter-ethnic hatred and whip-up popular support for unjust wars. That so many of us were gullible to fall for these lies reflects poorly on us as a nation.


indarwinsshadow:  I don't blame you in the slightest, since so many died that day and since, in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.


As tragic and evil as the attacks of 9-11 were, those losses pale in comparison to the evil and unjust wars that were prosecuted under the guise of retribution and to "protect us from Terr-rism" - not to mention the collapse of the Rule of Law and loss of our civil liberties domestically. And need I remind you that the allegations that Iraq was somehow involved in 9-11 AND that they possessed WMD's were pernicious LIES that were fed to us to "justify" that totally unjust war?

indarwinsshadow: So, I don't get how the Chinese (or Israelis) could get past the fact that 70 years ago, an entire country of people tried really really hard to exterminate both of them in the most heinous and violent ways possible. I'm not sure I'd have it in me to forgive and move on. I'd still have a lot of hatred in me and want revenge.

Yeah, you go on ahead and writhe in your seething hatred. We've had enough trouble thanks to the lies and hateful, divisive propaganda put out by you and your ilk to serve your own, selfish, manipulate agenda.

Here's a Benjamin Netanyahu quote worth remembering:

"We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," Ma'ariv quoted the former prime minister as saying. He reportedly added that these events "swung American public opinion in our favor."

Well, it's nice to see that the 9-11 attacks and the war in Iraq benefited SOMEONE, because they sure as hell didn't benefit the Iraqis or the Americans, did they?

Keep you hatred, your lies and your manipulative propaganda to yourself, indarwinsshadow.
 
2013-07-28 03:25:29 PM

PainfulItching: b b b bbbut.... NASA? How would we have beaten the Ruskies to the moon and have all the neat satellite stuff?


We knew how to make sound stages in Hollywood just fine without Leni Riefenstahl.

/Oh, you mean Wernher von Braun or something? Hahaha. That's what they want you to think!
 
2013-07-28 03:25:44 PM
I am not going to allow that their actions were okay but the main problem with the Japanese is that their military was still stuck in the 1400's (European time frame) mentality.  If you remember your history, the actions of the European armies and leaders (as well as Ghenghis Khan, Tamerlane, Atilla the Hun) were similar.  At that time whole cities were annialliated.  Also remember that until Commodore Perry opened Japan up to Trade in 1856, Japan was closed to all interaction with outsiders.  After 1856 Japan began to modernize but while their industry and military tools were equal to or superior to the West by the 1930's, their thinking was not and they waged war as the Europeans did in the 13-1400's and later.  Unfortunately for them, the West won the war and they suffered for it.  Hopefully they have learned from their mistake but probably not much as they are still a segregated society (white people are barred from entering many clubs by the bouncers who tell us "Japanese only").  They would probably go nuts if we began exporting our surplus Mexican labor there and they had to learn Spanish!  lol

I am not excusing their barbarism but you need to look upon it in a historical context.  They, like the Europeans and others of the 13-1400's and later, just didn't know any better.  They were 5-600 years behind the West in that respect and expecting them to be equal to the West in less than 100 years is a bit much.  Look at what Vlad the Impaler did to the Turks in Transilvania to get an idea of the European butchery towards humans.
 
2013-07-28 03:36:23 PM

legion_of_doo: PainfulItching: b b b bbbut.... NASA? How would we have beaten the Ruskies to the moon and have all the neat satellite stuff?

We knew how to make sound stages in Hollywood just fine without Leni Riefenstahl.

/Oh, you mean Wernher von Braun or something? Hahaha. That's what they want you to think!


Oy vey. People like you make my brain hurt.
 
2013-07-28 03:44:26 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment for those who want to talk about how these sorts of things happen. Then take a closer look at climatology.
 
2013-07-28 04:04:23 PM

THE GREAT NAME: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment for those who want to talk about how these sorts of things happen. Then take a closer look at climatology.



Propaganda meant to demonize and dehumanize an enemy helps.
 
2013-07-28 04:27:58 PM

phojo1946: Also remember that until Commodore Perry opened Japan up to Trade in 1856, Japan was closed to all interaction with outsiders.


Not entirely.  They were trading with the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, and England from about 1560 to 1630 or so before paranoia set in and they ceased trade with all but the Dutch, and very restricted trade with China until the 1860's which was the start of westernization in Japan, and opening trade and political relations with the rest of the world, and the beginnings of Japanese Imperialism.
 
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