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(Knowlege Nuts)   This man was a card carrying Nazi. He was a hero, saving as many as 250,000 Chinese during the Japanese invasion of Nanking. Not a story you'd expect   (knowledgenuts.com) divider line 193
    More: Interesting, Nanjing, Nazis, Oskar Schindler  
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9830 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2013 at 9:29 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-28 11:23:36 AM  
 
2013-07-28 11:24:01 AM  

Arthur Jumbles: Lucky none of them were Jewish.


He excluded Me Sum Ju?
 
2013-07-28 11:24:40 AM  

Bravo Two: Well, I admit, I did nazi that coming.


What's all the fuhrer about, though?
 
2013-07-28 11:26:35 AM  

EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.


我々は戦争に言及していない
 
2013-07-28 11:29:24 AM  

indarwinsshadow: So, I don't get how the Chinese (or Israelis) could get past the fact that 70 years ago, an entire country of people tried really really hard to exterminate both of them in the most heinous and violent ways possible. I'm not sure I'd have it in me to forgive and move on. I'd still have a lot of hatred in me and want revenge.


Who said they got past it?
 
2013-07-28 11:30:38 AM  
FYI, there is a good movie about this guy on netflix
 
2013-07-28 11:32:08 AM  

skinink: And people say the bombs didn't need to be dropped on Japan.


Interesting factoid, The Purple Heart medals the US are giving our forces now are from the 1940's. They made so many of them when it looked like we would have to take Japan by ground forces that we are still using them. New ribbons, same medals. That's how hard the fighting would have been, and would not have been a slam dunk. That's Korea, Vietnam, Iraq 1 and 2, Afghanistan, and other skirmishes like Grenada, and we still have not used that supply.
 
2013-07-28 11:32:23 AM  

PainfulItching: The Japanese had very effective torture, and I do mean torture, techniques.


Well, they waterboarded some people.
 
2013-07-28 11:32:42 AM  

LrdPhoenix: indarwinsshadow: So, I don't get how the Chinese (or Israelis) could get past the fact that 70 years ago, an entire country of people tried really really hard to exterminate both of them in the most heinous and violent ways possible. I'm not sure I'd have it in me to forgive and move on. I'd still have a lot of hatred in me and want revenge.

Who said they got past it?


Got that right.  The Chinese have never let Nanking go and they're not likely to do so, either.

Of course, coming from a state where the state motto might as well be 'Remember The Alamo!', I don't think many cultures can say that they're mature enough to let go of old wounds.
 
2013-07-28 11:32:47 AM  

MooseUpNorth: miss diminutive: In university I met a Japanese exchange student who claimed that the massacre had never taken place, or in his words "the number of dead and events were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes" or something to that effect.

That attitude may be widespread in Japanese culture. At least, you can see a lot of surprisingly obtuse historical revisionism creep into anime and video games from Japan.


It's more than widespread, it's the national belief. To today's Japanese, their grandparents brought civilization, and culture to a backward nation. In their eyes, they did nothing wrong. they believe that they treated the Chinese and Koreans like a firm but benevolent father would.  Korean and European comfort women were volunteers, POWs died because jungle conditions were harsh and Westerners were too soft and delicate, and since it's hard to gloss over the sheer bestiality of the events following the occupation of Nanking, they revert to simply denying it ever happened. And it is a strong belief, never try to argue this with a Japanese. Let's not forget that they see themselves as the innocent victims of WWII. It is what they have been teaching their children for a couple of generations. Perhaps not surprisingly then, they seem to have a mental block that prevents them from even countenancing the idea that they, or at least their grandparents, were the bad guys.

This national attitude is often the rule, not the exception. For example, Italians, deny, or at least minimize, atrocities they committed in Somalia and Ethiopia, instead they see themselves as a civilizing influence. Turks deny the Armenian genocide. Americans from the South deny that the US civil war was fought  over slavery. Russians deny that their troops raped and murdered hundreds of thousands (!) of German women well into the late 40s, or the animalistic way they behaved when they entered East Prussia before erasing it from existence, etc... In fact, Germany seems to be one of the very few countries that has come to grips with its dark past and then only in what used to be the old West Germany, the old East Germany did not consider itself responsible for atrocities committed during WWII since at the time it did not exist as a country.
 
2013-07-28 11:38:34 AM  
Also  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0893356/
It's essentially a bunch of actors reading letters, diaries and dispatches from that time in some studio, but it's very powerful. Highly recommended.
 
2013-07-28 11:43:12 AM  

capt.hollister: MooseUpNorth: miss diminutive: In university I met a Japanese exchange student who claimed that the massacre had never taken place, or in his words "the number of dead and events were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes" or something to that effect.

That attitude may be widespread in Japanese culture. At least, you can see a lot of surprisingly obtuse historical revisionism creep into anime and video games from Japan.

It's more than widespread, it's the national belief. To today's Japanese, their grandparents brought civilization, and culture to a backward nation. In their eyes, they did nothing wrong. they believe that they treated the Chinese and Koreans like a firm but benevolent father would.  Korean and European comfort women were volunteers, POWs died because jungle conditions were harsh and Westerners were too soft and delicate, and since it's hard to gloss over the sheer bestiality of the events following the occupation of Nanking, they revert to simply denying it ever happened. And it is a strong belief, never try to argue this with a Japanese. Let's not forget that they see themselves as the innocent victims of WWII. It is what they have been teaching their children for a couple of generations. Perhaps not surprisingly then, they seem to have a mental block that prevents them from even countenancing the idea that they, or at least their grandparents, were the bad guys.

This national attitude is often the rule, not the exception. For example, Italians, deny, or at least minimize, atrocities they committed in Somalia and Ethiopia, instead they see themselves as a civilizing influence. Turks deny the Armenian genocide. Americans from the South deny that the US civil war was fought  over slavery. Russians deny that their troops raped and murdered hundreds of thousands (!) of German women well into the late 40s, or the animalistic way they behaved when they entered East Prussia before erasing it from existence, etc... In fact, Germany seems to be one ...


Painted with a bit of a wide brush, but point well made. The Soviets taught generations of kids that the west was evil, and now there are many Muslim extremists teaching their children the same. Then again, we have the Westboro Baptist Church and other fringe elements, so The US is not immune either.
 
2013-07-28 11:43:23 AM  
So how many is that in white people?
 
2013-07-28 11:45:27 AM  

Primitive Screwhead: EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.

我々は戦争に言及していない


What should we talk about, grandpa ?

Infernalist: LrdPhoenix: indarwinsshadow: So, I don't get how the Chinese (or Israelis) could get past the fact that 70 years ago, an entire country of people tried really really hard to exterminate both of them in the most heinous and violent ways possible. I'm not sure I'd have it in me to forgive and move on. I'd still have a lot of hatred in me and want revenge.

Who said they got past it?

Got that right.  The Chinese have never let Nanking go and they're not likely to do so, either.

Of course, coming from a state where the state motto might as well be 'Remember The Alamo!', I don't think many cultures can say that they're mature enough to let go of old wounds.


There comes a point, though, where you have to accept that the descendants of the people who wronged your grandparents are not personally responsible for those actions. If you cannot do this, you are condemned to forever live a poisoned life of retaliation bringing more retaliation. Think of the muslims who want to avenge the Crusades. It is possible to not forget the suffering of those who came before without reverting to hatred and violence towards those who weren't even born.
 
2013-07-28 11:47:50 AM  

capt.hollister: Primitive Screwhead: EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.

我々は戦争に言及していない

What should we talk about, grandpa ?

Infernalist: LrdPhoenix: indarwinsshadow: So, I don't get how the Chinese (or Israelis) could get past the fact that 70 years ago, an entire country of people tried really really hard to exterminate both of them in the most heinous and violent ways possible. I'm not sure I'd have it in me to forgive and move on. I'd still have a lot of hatred in me and want revenge.

Who said they got past it?

Got that right.  The Chinese have never let Nanking go and they're not likely to do so, either.

Of course, coming from a state where the state motto might as well be 'Remember The Alamo!', I don't think many cultures can say that they're mature enough to let go of old wounds.

There comes a point, though, where you have to accept that the descendants of the people who wronged your grandparents are not personally responsible for those actions. If you cannot do this, you are condemned to forever live a poisoned life of retaliation bringing more retaliation. Think of the muslims who want to avenge the Crusades. It is possible to not forget the suffering of those who came before without reverting to hatred and violence towards those who weren't even born.


Just as an aside, as I remember it, the root causes for the 90s Serbian/Croatian civil war were based back in the Dark Ages, if I'm not mistaken.

Human beings have a very hard time letting go of perceived injustices, no matter how old they are.
 
2013-07-28 11:47:56 AM  

Sandelaphon: PainfulItching: The Japanese had very effective torture, and I do mean torture, techniques.

Well, they waterboarded some people.


You mean tied weights to downed pilots or sailors and threw them overboard, I take it. Cause they did.

If they captured say three guys in a liferaft, they would just weight one down and chuck him overboard so the other two would talk.
 
2013-07-28 11:51:16 AM  

miss diminutive: In university I met a Japanese exchange student who claimed that the massacre had never taken place, or in his words "the number of dead and events were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes" or something to that effect.

I was essentially speechless. I guess every country has a few people who just don't believe in moon landings/Holocausts/gravity.


Well it is true. The Chinese claim 200.000 dead, while in reality it were probably only a meagre 100.000 or so.

I lived in both Japan and Nanjing/Nanking, and I had a few Japanese friends visiting me while I was there, and of course the first thing I did was to take them to the memorial museum. They were in complete shock afterwards since they had never thought it might be true.
 
2013-07-28 11:54:58 AM  
Here is a good educational video on the different kind of Nazis:
Smith&Jones "Nazi Generals"
 
2013-07-28 11:55:43 AM  

bikkurikun: miss diminutive: In university I met a Japanese exchange student who claimed that the massacre had never taken place, or in his words "the number of dead and events were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes" or something to that effect.

I was essentially speechless. I guess every country has a few people who just don't believe in moon landings/Holocausts/gravity.

Well it is true. The Chinese claim 200.000 dead, while in reality it were probably only a meagre 100.000 or so.

I lived in both Japan and Nanjing/Nanking, and I had a few Japanese friends visiting me while I was there, and of course the first thing I did was to take them to the memorial museum. They were in complete shock afterwards since they had never thought it might be true.


Oh, only 100k dead?  Is that all?
 
2013-07-28 11:55:56 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: . . . and then he went home to Germany and cavorted merrily as his idol the Fuhrer slaughtered millions of innocents."

THE END


Actually, he didn't. But don't let that stop you.
 
2013-07-28 11:59:48 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Inquisitive Inquisitor: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: . . . and then he went home to Germany and cavorted merrily as his idol the Fuhrer slaughtered millions of innocents."

THE END

Actually he went home to Germany with evidence of the massacre in order to exert political pressure on the Japanese and prevent future atrocities.  That landed him in the loving hands of the Gestapo.

Oh, I thought he just went home and was questioned by the Gestapo, then released after intervention by influential Nazi officials working for Siemens AG, whereupon he continued to maintain his Nazi party membership and worked during WWII at Siemens, a strong supporter of Hitler and part of the concentration camp labor industry.


To be fair, Siemens stashed him in Afghanistan for a while, then probably had him hiding under a desk at the company HQ until the end of the war. Siemens got him out of China, and with the Gestapo on his ass, he would have never survived had Siemens not kept him on the payroll.

As it is, once the war ended, he was so broke, the survivors in Nanking were sending HIM food and money.
 
2013-07-28 12:02:22 PM  

PainfulItching: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Inquisitive Inquisitor: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: . . . and then he went home to Germany and cavorted merrily as his idol the Fuhrer slaughtered millions of innocents."

THE END

Actually he went home to Germany with evidence of the massacre in order to exert political pressure on the Japanese and prevent future atrocities.  That landed him in the loving hands of the Gestapo.

Oh, I thought he just went home and was questioned by the Gestapo, then released after intervention by influential Nazi officials working for Siemens AG, whereupon he continued to maintain his Nazi party membership and worked during WWII at Siemens, a strong supporter of Hitler and part of the concentration camp labor industry.

To be fair, Siemens stashed him in Afghanistan for a while, then probably had him hiding under a desk at the company HQ until the end of the war. Siemens got him out of China, and with the Gestapo on his ass, he would have never survived had Siemens not kept him on the payroll.

As it is, once the war ended, he was so broke, the survivors in Nanking were sending HIM food and money.


It should also be noted that the Germans thought that the Japanese were a barbaric subhuman race, but they were allies all the same.
 
2013-07-28 12:04:37 PM  

miss diminutive: In university I met a Japanese exchange student who claimed that the massacre had never taken place, or in his words "the number of dead and events were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes" or something to that effect.

I was essentially speechless. I guess every country has a few people who just don't believe in moon landings/Holocausts/gravity.


Nope. In Japan, it's nearly the whole country. And if they don't deny it, they probably just don't know about it. It's a silly place.
 
2013-07-28 12:05:41 PM  

PainfulItching: Painted with a bit of a wide brush, but point well made. The Soviets taught generations of kids that the west was evil... Then again, we have the Westboro Baptist Church


So this:

upload.wikimedia.org

Equals this:

www.core.org.cn

I'd call that painting with a continental sized brush.
 
2013-07-28 12:05:58 PM  
fact is, we should have dropped the atomic bombs on tokyo...
 
2013-07-28 12:07:18 PM  

Likwit: miss diminutive: In university I met a Japanese exchange student who claimed that the massacre had never taken place, or in his words "the number of dead and events were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes" or something to that effect.

I was essentially speechless. I guess every country has a few people who just don't believe in moon landings/Holocausts/gravity.

Nope. In Japan, it's nearly the whole country. And if they don't deny it, they probably just don't know about it. It's a silly place.


It's getting worse, too, the further we get from the actual events.  There used to be a deep-ingrained shame over their war atrocities, something forced onto them by the occupying Allied forces for a few generations, but that's fading away.

They're increasingly more in favor of having their own military again, too, and 'that' little development might well be the root cause of WWIII.
 
2013-07-28 12:07:57 PM  

ronaprhys: Read "The Rape of Nanking". From what I can tell, it's an even-handed accounting of the atrocities.


Good news for all the Japs.
The author committed suicide a few years ago.
 
2013-07-28 12:11:04 PM  
What Japanese history lessons leave out
From Homo erectus to the present day - more than a million years of history in just one year of lessons. That is how, at the age of 14, I first learned of Japan's relations with the outside world.

For three hours a week - 105 hours over the year - we edged towards the 20th Century.

It's hardly surprising that some classes, in some schools, never get there, and are told by teachers to finish the book in their spare time.


And of course, when your intellectual opponent is the Chinese government, good luck trying to get the truth out.
 
2013-07-28 12:12:27 PM  

proteus_b: fact is, we should have dropped the atomic bombs on tokyo...


Meh, the firebombing of Tokyo took more lives than the atomic bomb of Hiroshima.
 
2013-07-28 12:13:22 PM  

PainfulItching: Painted with a bit of a wide brush, but point well made. The Soviets taught generations of kids that the west was evil, and now there are many Muslim extremists teaching their children the same. Then again, we have the Westboro Baptist Church and other fringe elements, so The US is not immune either.


You can't really compare an entire government propaganda machine to a minuscule fringe group that is a joke even in its own country. Like comparing a giant to an ant.
 
2013-07-28 12:14:03 PM  

indarwinsshadow: It's 11 years since 9/11. I doubt most of you have gotten past the point where you'd like to see most of Al-Qaeda dead or forgiven the perpetrators and their host countries, or for that matter have got past your deep dislike and mistrust of Muslims. I don't blame you in the slightest, since so many died that day and since, in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. So, I don't get how the Chinese (or Israelis) could get past the fact that 70 years ago, an entire country of people tried really really hard to exterminate both of them in the most heinous and violent ways possible. I'm not sure I'd have it in me to forgive and move on. I'd still have a lot of hatred in me and want revenge.


I dated a Korean. She grew up in the US from birth, but vehemently hated the Japanese. Lots of them are not over it, they just don't talk about it.
 
2013-07-28 12:14:13 PM  
Well in all fairness Nazi Germany was one of the biggest backers of China in thier struggle against the Japs prior to the US entering the war.
 
2013-07-28 12:16:00 PM  

legion_of_doo: The author committed suicide a few years ago.


I only recently stumbled across that fact.  Really too bad.

Her description of the invasion from the perspective of a family (I believe her grandmothers) in a suburban home on the outskirts of Nanking was incredibly vivid.

The rest of the book convinced me the Japanese earned their fate.
 
2013-07-28 12:16:12 PM  

ronaprhys: Read "The Rape of Nanking".  From what I can tell, it's an even-handed accounting of the atrocities.


The Japanese object to it. But, then, they have a problem when their desire to ignore everything from about 1930 to 8:14am on August 6, 1945 is trampled upon by reality.
 
2013-07-28 12:17:07 PM  

Oldiron_79: Well in all fairness Nazi Germany was one of the biggest backers of China in thier struggle against the Japs prior to the US entering the war.


The Japanese pretty much sent a, "WTF, dude!?" to Hitler early on, and Germany ceased providing all the training and some equipment.
 
2013-07-28 12:17:17 PM  
Most people really don't grasp just how farked up the whole asian situation is and will be for the foreseeable future.

Especially if the Japanese get out from underneath our thumb and start thinking mostly for themselves again, especially when it comes to their military.
 
2013-07-28 12:17:17 PM  

vygramul: The Japanese object to it. But, then, they have a problem when their desire to ignore everything from about 1930 to 8:14am on August 6, 1945 is trampled upon by reality.


This.
 
2013-07-28 12:17:36 PM  

EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.


In Germany on the other hand, that part of history is teached in a way as to embarass and instill guilt into kids born decades after the fact. Seems the flow of German tax money to the eternal victims will go on for quite a while.

So it seems like the Japanese are better off, doesn't it?
 
2013-07-28 12:18:35 PM  

Infernalist: PainfulItching: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Inquisitive Inquisitor: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: . . . and then he went home to Germany and cavorted merrily as his idol the Fuhrer slaughtered millions of innocents."

THE END

Actually he went home to Germany with evidence of the massacre in order to exert political pressure on the Japanese and prevent future atrocities.  That landed him in the loving hands of the Gestapo.

Oh, I thought he just went home and was questioned by the Gestapo, then released after intervention by influential Nazi officials working for Siemens AG, whereupon he continued to maintain his Nazi party membership and worked during WWII at Siemens, a strong supporter of Hitler and part of the concentration camp labor industry.

To be fair, Siemens stashed him in Afghanistan for a while, then probably had him hiding under a desk at the company HQ until the end of the war. Siemens got him out of China, and with the Gestapo on his ass, he would have never survived had Siemens not kept him on the payroll.

As it is, once the war ended, he was so broke, the survivors in Nanking were sending HIM food and money.

It should also be noted that the Germans thought that the Japanese were a barbaric subhuman race, but they were allies all the same.


They were allies because the Japanese were willing to take on the Americans. And hopefully keep the Americans occupied and out of the European theater so the Germans could have a sporting chance at taking England. But then came Lend-Lease and a bunch of Canadian pilots that stopped them at the channel and the North Sea. Then they had the Russians to deal with. Suddenly Hitler had a 2 front war, and did not want the Americans involved. I personally think the bombing of Pearl Harbor was a "suggestion" by Hitler. He probably promised the Japanese part of the Asian mainland and the islands after victory. I think their main job was to take out the US Pacific fleet, it would have been foolhardy to try to take the US by force with the Japanese population.

They weren't expecting us to be able to supply two fronts on opposite sides of the world at the same time. That was the major miscalculation.
 
2013-07-28 12:21:17 PM  

mekki: PainfulItching: Painted with a bit of a wide brush, but point well made. The Soviets taught generations of kids that the west was evil, and now there are many Muslim extremists teaching their children the same. Then again, we have the Westboro Baptist Church and other fringe elements, so The US is not immune either.

You can't really compare an entire government propaganda machine to a minuscule fringe group that is a joke even in its own country. Like comparing a giant to an ant.


But you know what I mean. Propaganda is propaganda. If it's 15 people or 150 million.
 
2013-07-28 12:22:34 PM  

instantwin: EdNortonsTwin: Nanking and orher atrocities, events like Pearl Harbor and such are glazed over in Japanese schools.

In Germany on the other hand, that part of history is teached in a way as to embarass and instill guilt into kids born decades after the fact. Seems the flow of German tax money to the eternal victims will go on for quite a while.

So it seems like the Japanese are better off, doesn't it?


Let's see...The Japanese are almost universally hated by all their neighbors and are only treated with the barest of non-hostility due to their extremely close connection to the U.S...

Meanwhile, the Germans are all but leading the EU and are looked upon as a nation to admire and treated with a great deal of respect, even by those nations that they once conquered and nearly destroyed less than a century ago.

You tell me.
 
2013-07-28 12:23:29 PM  
The Japanese have yet to truly acknowledge and show remorse for what they did to the other Asian people.

They were every bit as brutal and inhuman as the Nazis, maybe even worse.
 
2013-07-28 12:25:45 PM  

Ilmarinen: proteus_b: fact is, we should have dropped the atomic bombs on tokyo...

Meh, the firebombing of Tokyo took more lives than the atomic bomb of Hiroshima.


Yep, but somehow people think the A-bomb was worse because it didn't take hundreds of B-29's and thousands of bombs to do it.

But the people that died in the fire bombing are just as dead.
 
2013-07-28 12:27:18 PM  

Pacfanweb: The Japanese have yet to truly acknowledge and show remorse for what they did to the other Asian people.

They were every bit as brutal and inhuman as the Nazis, maybe even worse.


The German soul was temporarily corrupted.

The Japanese have no soul.

/ slight generalization
 
2013-07-28 12:27:32 PM  

Infernalist: Most people really don't grasp just how farked up the whole asian situation is and will be for the foreseeable future.

Especially if the Japanese get out from underneath our thumb and start thinking mostly for themselves again, especially when it comes to their military.


That's what happened last time. They weren't supposed to have all those toys. Neither was Germany, in fact. Nobody to keep an eye on them. There were people so hellbent on peace after the mess that was WWi, that they didn't want to risk pissing anyone off by looking over their shoulder. So Japan built a navy, and Germany tripled it's army, and started making planes and tanks in secret.
 
2013-07-28 12:27:46 PM  

Pacfanweb: Ilmarinen: proteus_b: fact is, we should have dropped the atomic bombs on tokyo...

Meh, the firebombing of Tokyo took more lives than the atomic bomb of Hiroshima.

Yep, but somehow people think the A-bomb was worse because it didn't take hundreds of B-29's and thousands of bombs to do it.

But the people that died in the fire bombing are just as dead.


Oh, but it was 'atomic' fire, which is worse, or something.

Honestly, people are retarded.  Atomic weapons, and the nukes that followed, actually helped prevent millions of deaths.  Unless, of course, you think the USSR and the US wouldn't have gone to war if the nukes hadn't been there to keep us all from going bat-shiat stupid with conventional forces...
 
2013-07-28 12:31:50 PM  

vygramul: ronaprhys: Read "The Rape of Nanking".  From what I can tell, it's an even-handed accounting of the atrocities.

The Japanese object to it. But, then, they have a problem when their desire to ignore everything from about 1930 to 8:14am on August 6, 1945 is trampled upon by reality.


"The Japanese Army was famous for its savagery until we nuked them, and suddenly they remembered they were pacifists."
 
2013-07-28 12:33:13 PM  

Infernalist: Likwit: miss diminutive: In university I met a Japanese exchange student who claimed that the massacre had never taken place, or in his words "the number of dead and events were greatly exaggerated for propaganda purposes" or something to that effect.

I was essentially speechless. I guess every country has a few people who just don't believe in moon landings/Holocausts/gravity.

Nope. In Japan, it's nearly the whole country. And if they don't deny it, they probably just don't know about it. It's a silly place.

It's getting worse, too, the further we get from the actual events.  There used to be a deep-ingrained shame over their war atrocities, something forced onto them by the occupying Allied forces for a few generations, but that's fading away.

They're increasingly more in favor of having their own military again, too, and 'that' little development might well be the root cause of WWIII.


I'm actually in school over here studying Brazilian immigrants. It's pretty brutal.

Anyways, I came across an interesting study on nationalism when I was dicking around in the school archives. They looked at patriotism (defined by a series of 12 quesions asking about love for one's nation, people, democracy, immigration, and confidence in the political system) and the correlation it had to ethnic exclusionism (determined through further questioning). There were a lot of surprising things, like European countries having little correlation between education level and ethnic exclusionism, or patriotism having no correlation or even negative correlation with exclusionism in many cases. Japan was by far the worst. They had the most disagree and strongly disagree answers to "political refugees should be allowed to remain in your country." They had the most agree and strongly agree answers to "people should support the government even if it is in the wrong." It was also one of only 2 countries (the other being our old pal Germany) where patriotism was positively correlated with ethnic exclusionism.
 
2013-07-28 12:34:12 PM  

Infernalist: Pacfanweb: Ilmarinen: proteus_b: fact is, we should have dropped the atomic bombs on tokyo...

Meh, the firebombing of Tokyo took more lives than the atomic bomb of Hiroshima.

Yep, but somehow people think the A-bomb was worse because it didn't take hundreds of B-29's and thousands of bombs to do it.

But the people that died in the fire bombing are just as dead.

Oh, but it was 'atomic' fire, which is worse, or something.

Honestly, people are retarded.  Atomic weapons, and the nukes that followed, actually helped prevent millions of deaths.  Unless, of course, you think the USSR and the US wouldn't have gone to war if the nukes hadn't been there to keep us all from going bat-shiat stupid with conventional forces...


Agreed.  If people think the atomic bombs were bad, they'd be truly shocked if they saw how many people would have been killed in an invasion of the Japanese homeland.

The Japanese had over a million soldiers on the homeland.   They fought to the last man everywhere.   Okinawa cost Japan over 100k, with probably that number of civilians killed, too.    Imagine them defending the home island, plus they were arming women and children and teaching them to fight.
 
2013-07-28 12:37:53 PM  

Pacfanweb: Infernalist: Pacfanweb: Ilmarinen: proteus_b: fact is, we should have dropped the atomic bombs on tokyo...

Meh, the firebombing of Tokyo took more lives than the atomic bomb of Hiroshima.

Yep, but somehow people think the A-bomb was worse because it didn't take hundreds of B-29's and thousands of bombs to do it.

But the people that died in the fire bombing are just as dead.

Oh, but it was 'atomic' fire, which is worse, or something.

Honestly, people are retarded.  Atomic weapons, and the nukes that followed, actually helped prevent millions of deaths.  Unless, of course, you think the USSR and the US wouldn't have gone to war if the nukes hadn't been there to keep us all from going bat-shiat stupid with conventional forces...

Agreed.  If people think the atomic bombs were bad, they'd be truly shocked if they saw how many people would have been killed in an invasion of the Japanese homeland.

The Japanese had over a million soldiers on the homeland.   They fought to the last man everywhere.   Okinawa cost Japan over 100k, with probably that number of civilians killed, too.    Imagine them defending the home island, plus they were arming women and children and teaching them to fight.


That's putting it lightly.  They were training kids and women and old people to fight to the death with sticks, rocks and grenades.  The general population quite seriously and honestly thought that Americans were 'white devils'.  Not an insult.  They thought that the Americans were REAL DEMONS and were planning to kill everyone and eat people alive and all that jazz.

Nearly the entirety of the civilian population would have died in a conventional invasion and an ungodly amount of Allied forces would have died pacifying the islands.  The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki not only saved those Allied lives, but probably saved the Japanese people from a near genocidal event.
 
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