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(STLToday)   If you live to be 95 and die at home, you win. If you die at the hospital after fighting the cops with a cane, shoehorn and butcher knife, you get on Fark, which is still kind of a win   (stltoday.com) divider line 28
    More: Strange, butcher knife, bean bags, Taser, canes, shoehorn  
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8159 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2013 at 12:12 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-07-28 12:17:18 AM
14 votes:
I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people
2013-07-28 12:26:58 AM
6 votes:

you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people


Yes. They were originally only to be used when you WERE going to shoot someone; not as a compliance tool.
2013-07-28 12:38:41 AM
5 votes:
The linked 'article' says that:  The Chicago Sun-Times reports the man became upset after an ambulance crew in Park Forest tried to take him to a medical facility.


Well for goodness sakes, if he doesn't want to go then he doesn't want to go.  If your patient is uncooperative or refuses treatment, you can't force them into an ambulance.  That's kidnapping.

Just leave, if that's what he wants.
2013-07-28 12:26:19 AM
5 votes:
Man, when I'm 95, I want to be seen by the cops as that kind of threat.

"She was coming right at us with a shoehorn! We had no choice!"

I would die a happy, happy woman.
2013-07-28 12:53:58 AM
4 votes:

lewismarktwo: Meh, police have devolved into an armed gang of taxmen, but if some old coot pulls a knife on me I wouldn't try to wrestle with him ifin I had me a taser.

/he probably didn't pull a knife


What you SHOULD do is LEAVE.  They had no reason to do anythign at all to the old dude.  He didn't want to go to the hospital.  Not wanting to go to the hospital is not a crime.  Forcing him to defend himself, then tasering him because he does so is not allowed.  Leave him the fark alone.
2013-07-28 12:30:32 AM
4 votes:
Cops killed (great)grandpa.  Way to instill trust in the police across a few generations at once.

God bless our courageous brave boys in blue.
2013-07-28 12:28:12 AM
4 votes:
How is it that the more militarized the police become, the bigger pussies they are? I would think it would be embarrassing that you were defeated by a (95 year old man, 8 year old girl, sleeping elderly woman).
2013-07-28 12:36:11 AM
3 votes:
That's actually how I wanna go out!

Srsly, over 90, opinionated, fighting the machine. Can't really top that.
2013-07-28 12:32:13 AM
3 votes:
Tasering a 95 year old? Pussies.
2013-07-28 12:14:54 AM
3 votes:
Cops had to use a tazer!  No time to wait until he fell asleep in 10 minutes.  There are speed traps to get back to!
2013-07-28 09:35:15 AM
2 votes:

enderthexenocide: i hate cops just as much as the rest of you, but in this case it seems like a lose-lose situation.  how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?  honestly, this is exactly the kind of situation where a tazer is the right course of action.  of course it sounds like a terrible idea to tazer an old man, but if my options are "tazer an old man" or "get stabbed in the chest with a butcher knife" i'm gonna go with the tazer.  the old guy was dangerous and the cops had to do something to restrain him.  a sad story all around, but i don't think the cops are to blame for his death.


I was in LE decades ago when the level of force depended on the circumstance. This was so long ago a cop could make judgement calls. My basic gear was a handgun, night stick, cuffs and a radio. I don't know how many times I went on calls like the one in the article. I would have pretty much classified this as a domestic. You've got the staff on one side of the argument and the old man on the other in a place where they all live together. Step one is to get the staff and everyone else around out of earshot. People tend to talk crap in these kind of calls - just like the passenger on a traffic stop always wants their two cents. I don't need that. Step two is make sure there isn't any other threat around, other than the visible ones. If you aren't sure, move the discussion to a place that is clear. In my day we couldn't pull a gun on a defensive knife, that was night stick level. A cane and a shoe horn? Lol. Even if the old guy is standing there waving a knife around - you just stand back and talk to the guy. I'll kind big and tall, so if I can sit someplace and just talk to people about things that have nothing to do about the incident to get them calmed down, it works for me. If a half hour of talking about his old career didn't calm him, I'd make him lunge at me, move out of the way, and down he would go.

The point is there was a reason the guy felt threatened enough to feel he needed to drop the shoe horn and cane and resort to the knife. The cops need to look back on that moment and see where they made a mistake during this time. I think cops having tasers is an easy way to get out of training for the job. Police work is hard, you have to learn how to do the job with the least amount of paperwork. It's done the right way every day, all day long. When it isn't - Fark.
2013-07-28 01:51:40 AM
2 votes:

hardinparamedic: However, at the point you grab a butcher knife and try to stab someone?


That's the point where someone is defending himself. It matters not if they were cops or not when someone who has committed no crime against anyone is being forced out of his home against his will.

What should have happened is when he did not want to go, they should have left him the fark alone. What's the worst that could happen to him if he doesn't go to the hospital? He could die. Well, what happened to him when he was hit with a taser? He died. Likely someone of his age it's a pretty high probability that he would die from the application of such force. What would have happened if they just waited until he agreed to go? Not a whole hell of a lot considering he was in good enough shape to put up significant resistance.
2013-07-28 12:42:37 AM
2 votes:
Subby, you got your headline from the Iliad:

"For my mother the goddess, silver-footed Thetis, telleth me that twofold fates are bearing me toward the doom of death: if I abide here and fight off the cops with a cane, then lost is my home-return, but my renown shall be imperishable on Fark.com; but if I stay in bed, lost then is my glorious Fark renown, yet shall my life long endure"
- Achilles (Iliad, 9.410-15)
2013-07-28 06:24:38 PM
1 votes:

tbeatty: PsiChick: eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.

...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?

You didn't read the part where he was 95 and attacking paramedics trying helping him?  There's this thing called 'dementia'.  He's irrational and the safest thing for him AND everyone else around him is to get him under control as soon as possible.   What rational conversation did you think you can have with armed people with mental illness that makes them prone to violence?  Did you think the paramedics with health care and mental health care training, who had neither Tasers or guns weren't trying to verbally convince him to get treated and were still attacked?   Are you usually this detached from reality?


As someone else suggested in the thread: "Okay, well, you don't have to go, buddy, but we need you to sign this...GRAB HIM!". Failing that, use the beanbags first. Hell,  make equipment for dealing with elderly dementia patients.

Normally, I'm all for using the quickest means necessary to get violently mentally ill people under control. Normally, we aren't talking about people who die after breaking a hip. If there isn't a means to deal with this already, that doesn't mean there never will be, it means we need to  start creating those means.
2013-07-28 09:54:18 AM
1 votes:
Murdering senior citizens with "non-lethal" weapons while they're having Anzio flashbacks is no way to go through life, officer.
2013-07-28 08:59:29 AM
1 votes:
In frail, elderly, people, an infection or an electrolyte imbalance can be devastating mentally.  Most of the time when an elderly person goes batshiat, it's an infection.  If he were crazy all the time, he wouldn't be allowed shoe horns, canes and butcher knives in his room.  The facility or the ambulance crew calling the cops is super stupid and someone should notify the state protective agency.  Backing off, letting him calm down while preparing whatever PRN the old guy has ordered to settle him down (haldol, ativan)  would be the prudent course.  A little patience and he would still be alive.  It was their job to keep him safe, and they failed.
2013-07-28 03:14:18 AM
1 votes:
farking assholes
No, he ca't be forced to go to the hospital if he doesn't want to. He has every right to refuse. Sure, you can try talking him in to it, and if you do it correctly, ina non-confrontational way, you have an excellent chance of compliance.
"You're coming with us" and calling the cops in is not the way to do it. I farking hate cowboy farking medics with no farking skills.
2013-07-28 02:59:52 AM
1 votes:
lesson learned: when you get shuffled off to an assisted living center, pack and hide heat.
2013-07-28 02:07:02 AM
1 votes:

redmid17: but I'm pretty sure trauma from being tazed and being hit by a bean bag round when you're 95 don't exactly help.


True. But all the articles I'm finding with google-fu seem to indicate that not all the information is being shared. Particularly why he was being transported for an involuntary commitment.
2013-07-28 01:36:57 AM
1 votes:
I suspect the state is going to be very interested in why a nursing home doesn't know how to deal with an uncooperative 95 year old.
2013-07-28 01:06:09 AM
1 votes:

Joliebleu: RepoManTSM: I'd just like to get greenlit once. Feel like I have a better chance to be the subject of an article at this point.

That is kinda sad. I mean really. A greenlit gets you nothing in the long run. So what does it matter? Nothing.


It's its own reward.  Keep reaching for the stars, greenlight chaser man.
2013-07-28 01:01:50 AM
1 votes:

Emposter: He didn't want to go to the hospital.  Not wanting to go to the hospital is not a crime.


Something tells me you don't know as much as you think you know about the topic. FTFA, the Ambulance Crew on scene tried to take him to the hospital when he became violent with them. I'm willing to more than bet that if they were taking him against his will, he either had someone who was his POA directing him, or they felt he was not in his right mind.

Ambulance Crews are not in the habit of forcing people to go against their will. Those lawsuits get expensive, and they don't have the protection police have to involuntarily commit someone. The police tend to be hesitant to do it as well, since they're going to pay for the first 12-24 hours of an involuntary commitment and the medical care he receives as he's technically in custody for the hold.

However, at the point you grab a butcher knife and try to stab someone? Yeah. You stop being grandpa.

/I've seen 80 year old psych and dementia patients seriously mess up LPNs and CNAs.
2013-07-28 12:57:23 AM
1 votes:

Emposter: lewismarktwo: Meh, police have devolved into an armed gang of taxmen, but if some old coot pulls a knife on me I wouldn't try to wrestle with him ifin I had me a taser.

/he probably didn't pull a knife

What you SHOULD do is LEAVE.  They had no reason to do anythign at all to the old dude.  He didn't want to go to the hospital.  Not wanting to go to the hospital is not a crime.  Forcing him to defend himself, then tasering him because he does so is not allowed.  Leave him the fark alone.


Pretty much this. What a shiatty way to go.
2013-07-28 12:55:22 AM
1 votes:

Neighborhood Watch: The linked 'article' says that:  The Chicago Sun-Times reports the man became upset after an ambulance crew in Park Forest tried to take him to a medical facility.


Well for goodness sakes, if he doesn't want to go then he doesn't want to go.  If your patient is uncooperative or refuses treatment, you can't force them into an ambulance.  That's kidnapping.

Just leave, if that's what he wants.


I was wondering about that too so I went searching for more info.

Apparently he was a resident at a nursing home (or may have been more like assisted living), and the facility staff had called the ambulance to have him taken for treatment "involuntarily", and it says he was also threatening facility staff with the cane and (2 foot metal) shoehorn.  It's not clear from the article if the ambulance was called to take him because he was being combative, or if he became combative because of the ambulance (it doesn't say what they were having him taken for treatment of).
  However, I can see where the police couldn't just leave him there if he was threatening facility staff and he could have been a threat to other residents

"According to an e-mailed press release from Park Forest police, officers were sent to 101 Main Street in Park Forest about 8:42 p.m. to help a private ambulance company with a "combative" resident of the home there. The Victory Centre of Park Forest, a supportive living community for adults 65 and older according to its website, is at that address.
 The resident of the faculty was being "involuntarily" committed for medical treatment by staff at the Victory Centre, the release said."
2013-07-28 12:50:35 AM
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: Man, when I'm 95, I want to be seen by the cops as that kind of threat.

"She was coming right at us with a shoehorn! We had no choice!"

I would die a happy, happy woman.


I like the way you think.
Lets go to Payless for some weaponry.
2013-07-28 12:31:58 AM
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: Man, when I'm 95, I want to be seen by the cops as that kind of threat.

"She was coming right at us with a shoehorn! We had no choice!"

I would die a happy, happy woman.


Replace "she" and "woman" with "he" and "old coot" and I have to say;
THIS!!!!!
2013-07-28 12:27:41 AM
1 votes:

Joliebleu: So our live long dream is to get on Fark?


I'd just like to get greenlit once. Feel like I have a better chance to be the subject of an article at this point.
2013-07-28 12:21:24 AM
1 votes:
Those poor patrolmen.

I hope the very best remediation assets are mustered, no expense spared, to assuage their damaged feelings.
 
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