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(STLToday)   If you live to be 95 and die at home, you win. If you die at the hospital after fighting the cops with a cane, shoehorn and butcher knife, you get on Fark, which is still kind of a win   (stltoday.com) divider line 138
    More: Strange, butcher knife, bean bags, Taser, canes, shoehorn  
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8178 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2013 at 12:12 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-28 08:50:30 AM  
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-28 08:59:29 AM  
In frail, elderly, people, an infection or an electrolyte imbalance can be devastating mentally.  Most of the time when an elderly person goes batshiat, it's an infection.  If he were crazy all the time, he wouldn't be allowed shoe horns, canes and butcher knives in his room.  The facility or the ambulance crew calling the cops is super stupid and someone should notify the state protective agency.  Backing off, letting him calm down while preparing whatever PRN the old guy has ordered to settle him down (haldol, ativan)  would be the prudent course.  A little patience and he would still be alive.  It was their job to keep him safe, and they failed.
 
2013-07-28 09:10:28 AM  

kinkkerbelle: In frail, elderly, people, an infection or an electrolyte imbalance can be devastating mentally.  Most of the time when an elderly person goes batshiat, it's an infection.  If he were crazy all the time, he wouldn't be allowed shoe horns, canes and butcher knives in his room.  The facility or the ambulance crew calling the cops is super stupid and someone should notify the state protective agency.  Backing off, letting him calm down while preparing whatever PRN the old guy has ordered to settle him down (haldol, ativan)  would be the prudent course.  A little patience and he would still be alive.  It was their job to keep him safe, and they failed.




1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-28 09:35:15 AM  

enderthexenocide: i hate cops just as much as the rest of you, but in this case it seems like a lose-lose situation.  how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?  honestly, this is exactly the kind of situation where a tazer is the right course of action.  of course it sounds like a terrible idea to tazer an old man, but if my options are "tazer an old man" or "get stabbed in the chest with a butcher knife" i'm gonna go with the tazer.  the old guy was dangerous and the cops had to do something to restrain him.  a sad story all around, but i don't think the cops are to blame for his death.


I was in LE decades ago when the level of force depended on the circumstance. This was so long ago a cop could make judgement calls. My basic gear was a handgun, night stick, cuffs and a radio. I don't know how many times I went on calls like the one in the article. I would have pretty much classified this as a domestic. You've got the staff on one side of the argument and the old man on the other in a place where they all live together. Step one is to get the staff and everyone else around out of earshot. People tend to talk crap in these kind of calls - just like the passenger on a traffic stop always wants their two cents. I don't need that. Step two is make sure there isn't any other threat around, other than the visible ones. If you aren't sure, move the discussion to a place that is clear. In my day we couldn't pull a gun on a defensive knife, that was night stick level. A cane and a shoe horn? Lol. Even if the old guy is standing there waving a knife around - you just stand back and talk to the guy. I'll kind big and tall, so if I can sit someplace and just talk to people about things that have nothing to do about the incident to get them calmed down, it works for me. If a half hour of talking about his old career didn't calm him, I'd make him lunge at me, move out of the way, and down he would go.

The point is there was a reason the guy felt threatened enough to feel he needed to drop the shoe horn and cane and resort to the knife. The cops need to look back on that moment and see where they made a mistake during this time. I think cops having tasers is an easy way to get out of training for the job. Police work is hard, you have to learn how to do the job with the least amount of paperwork. It's done the right way every day, all day long. When it isn't - Fark.
 
2013-07-28 09:42:34 AM  
Since everyone is pulling scenario's of what happened out of their ass, here's mine:

The person who dispenses the pills at the nursing home went on vacation. Since Warna is feisty enough to fight with the police, he would have been feisty enough so that the place where he lived would have had him SEVERELY tranked, to make him easier to deal with. So the replacement guy comes in and says "whoa, this guy is tranked into oblivion" and cuts way back on the dosage. Grandpappy Warna goes apecrap and the cops are called. They shoot him with a taser and it has little effect because Warna is used to being tranked. Then they shoot him with a beanbag and it kills him.
 
2013-07-28 09:51:55 AM  

varmitydog: Since everyone is pulling scenario's of what happened out of their ass, here's mine:

The person who dispenses the pills at the nursing home went on vacation. Since Warna is feisty enough to fight with the police, he would have been feisty enough so that the place where he lived would have had him SEVERELY tranked, to make him easier to deal with. So the replacement guy comes in and says "whoa, this guy is tranked into oblivion" and cuts way back on the dosage. Grandpappy Warna goes apecrap and the cops are called. They shoot him with a taser and it has little effect because Warna is used to being tranked. Then they shoot him with a beanbag and it kills him.


In that case you call for backup, dog pile him, and the problem is over in under a minute. Everyone goes home alive.
 
2013-07-28 09:54:18 AM  
Murdering senior citizens with "non-lethal" weapons while they're having Anzio flashbacks is no way to go through life, officer.
 
2013-07-28 10:03:57 AM  

Johnny_Canuck: Tasering a 95 year old? Pussies.


Agreed. They should've shot him in self-defense. That's the American way.
 
2013-07-28 10:07:29 AM  

OgreMagi: Answer me this. What legal authority do they have to force him to go to the hospital?  Perhaps the old guy knew he was close to dying and preferred to do that at home instead of bankrupting his family by going to a hospital.


Obviously I don't know what was going on in his head, but it could have been good old-fashioned old coot cantankerousness.

My great-grandmother was 90+ and being cared for in my grandparents home when she came down with a fever.  She was ill and being very difficult (which was par for the course...no dementia she was just an evil old woman) and had some mobility issues so they called an ambulance.  The got her outside, but when the ambulance approached and my grandmother went to brief the paramedics, the old coot got into my grandfather's car and refused to get out.  Paramedics couldn't talk her out and eventually called the police (she needed medical treatment and was in my grandparent's care). As soon as the police got there she became quite compliant and got out of the car and into the ambulance, having apparently enjoyed the game of making life difficult and embarrassing for my grandparents and all-around wasting the time of people who had more important things to do.

/end CSB
 
2013-07-28 10:20:38 AM  
What I don't get is the persistent need for law enforcement to contribute to escalation in scenarios like this.   What would've happened if they simply walked away and left this guy alone?   Back off and let him calm down a little maybe...not everything has to follow "escalation of force."
 
2013-07-28 10:21:45 AM  

pedrop357: Yeah, you're a guy who doesn't want to be taken somewhere against his will.


Sometimes you don't have a choice legally. But something tells me you know this.
 
2013-07-28 10:23:14 AM  

Ficoce: In that case you call for backup, dog pile him, and the problem is over in under a minute. Everyone goes home alive.


You don't "dogpile" anyone. If you're going to wrestle with a psych patient, you do a four extremity take down using four+ people. That doesn't happen when someone is swinging a butcher knife around trying to cut people.

/christ. Next you know they'll be asking why didn't they just  tranquilize him like they see on the TV movies.
 
2013-07-28 10:24:28 AM  
No way the cops could have talked to a 95 year old man with a knife to calm him down.  95 year old men can move at nearly 2 miles an hour.
 
2013-07-28 10:27:51 AM  
When 95 years old YOU become, be still conscious after taking a taser and beanbag rounds you will not!
 
2013-07-28 10:33:20 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: No way the cops could have talked to a 95 year old man with a knife to calm him down.


Your assumption is that the man was in a state that he could have been talked down to begin with.
 
2013-07-28 10:33:51 AM  

hardinparamedic: Ficoce: In that case you call for backup, dog pile him, and the problem is over in under a minute. Everyone goes home alive.

You don't "dogpile" anyone. If you're going to wrestle with a psych patient, you do a four extremity take down using four+ people. That doesn't happen when someone is swinging a butcher knife around trying to cut people.

/christ. Next you know they'll be asking why didn't they just  tranquilize him like they see on the TV movies.


Lol, isn't that what I said? Sometimes four isn't enough with mental cases with knives. With a personality type that gets pissed off just thinking about this kind of thing, maybe a "people person" career isn't for you.
 
2013-07-28 10:38:45 AM  

Ficoce: With a personality type that gets pissed off just thinking about this kind of thing, maybe a "people person" career isn't for you.


"Pissed"?

I get "pissed" far less than you assume, correcting your misconceptions about handling violent people is not "being pissed".  And, just so you know, I've never had one complaint about my attitude or personality from a patient or family. So since you know nothing about me, how about you stick to the situation at hand rather than making thinly veiled character insults?

This personwas being transported on an involuntary hold from an assisted living facility where he was originally - apparantly - livingindependently.

Ficoce: Sometimes four isn't enough with mental cases with knives.


Uh, no. At the point someone is swinging a knife around, they stop being a patient, and start being a life threat. There IS a line you cross there.
 
2013-07-28 10:55:14 AM  
Wonder if they aimed for the pacemaker?
 
2013-07-28 11:17:43 AM  

hardinparamedic: Ficoce: With a personality type that gets pissed off just thinking about this kind of thing, maybe a "people person" career isn't for you.

"Pissed"?

I get "pissed" far less than you assume, correcting your misconceptions about handling violent people is not "being pissed".  And, just so you know, I've never had one complaint about my attitude or personality from a patient or family. So since you know nothing about me, how about you stick to the situation at hand rather than making thinly veiled character insults?

This personwas being transported on an involuntary hold from an assisted living facility where he was originally - apparantly - livingindependently.

Ficoce: Sometimes four isn't enough with mental cases with knives.

Uh, no. At the point someone is swinging a knife around, they stop being a patient, and start being a life threat. There IS a line you cross there.


I'm sorry, I wasn't looking at it from your point of view. Yes, as a paramedic you need to get the hell out of the way and let the police handle the 95 year old cane waving men at assisted living facilities. Some people don't want your help and sometimes it's best to let the people that don't care handle it - it's too bad when tazers are the easy way out. Lots of other options.
 
2013-07-28 11:35:22 AM  

hardinparamedic: Ficoce: With a personality type that gets pissed off just thinking about this kind of thing, maybe a "people person" career isn't for you.

"Pissed"?

I get "pissed" far less than you assume, correcting your misconceptions about handling violent people is not "being pissed".  And, just so you know, I've never had one complaint about my attitude or personality from a patient or family. So since you know nothing about me, how about you stick to the situation at hand rather than making thinly veiled character insults?

This personwas being transported on an involuntary hold from an assisted living facility where he was originally - apparantly - livingindependently.

Ficoce: Sometimes four isn't enough with mental cases with knives.

Uh, no. At the point someone is swinging a knife around, they stop being a patient, and start being a life threat. There IS a line you cross there.


You may be right about all the procedure stuff you spew about but the bottom line is if this was handled better the old man would still be alive.

In my opinion, your still a piece of shiat for tasering and beaning a 95 year old man.

You always come in to these threads spewing "but procedure allows cops to do this" bullshiat and miss the entire point.
 
2013-07-28 11:40:22 AM  

Lego_Addict: In my opinion, your still a piece of shiat for tasering and beaning a 95 year old man.

You always come in to these threads spewing "but procedure allows cops to do this" bullshiat and miss the entire point.


You seem to miss the point yourself. He was threatening to kill someone with a knife. No one is under any obligation to get stabbed by someone, let alone by someone who is not in his right mind and more than likely CANNOT be reasoned with.

Maybe they should have just gotten knifed in the chest while wrestling with him. I'm sure that's in their job description SOMEWHERE. Or shot him? You know, at least if they had shot him, we'd know he died because of them. Not have the question of why he died two days later after being wheeled out while conscious and talking.

Ficoce: I'm sorry, I wasn't looking at it from your point of view. Yes, as a paramedic you need to get the hell out of the way and let the police handle the 95 year old cane waving men at assisted living facilities. Some people don't want your help and sometimes it's best to let the people that don't care handle it - it's too bad when tazers are the easy way out. Lots of other options.


He wasn't waving a cane around. He was waving a 12-inch long knife around.

What other options were there, in the case of someone who was being involuntarily transported (I.e. He does not have the right or choice to refus) and who is not in their right mind and is armed with a knife? Again, should they have just shot him and been done with it?

Leaving him alone was not an option.
 
2013-07-28 11:51:39 AM  

Lego_Addict: but the bottom line is if this was handled better the old man would still be alive.


You know nothing about what was going on with him. At all. He had a sudden and acute mental status change far beyond what was normal for him PRIOR to the altercation, and had to be transferred from the hospital he was taken to to a tertiary care facility where he died 5 hours later after losing consciousness at the hospital.

Something else was going on that had NOTHING to do with the fact he got stabby and got beaned for it.
 
2013-07-28 12:47:00 PM  
Puncing out at 95 in a violent confrontation with the cops?  Dying......LIKE A BOSS.
 
2013-07-28 01:01:20 PM  

Ficoce: I was in LE decades ago when the level of force depended on the circumstance. This was so long ago a cop could make judgement calls. My basic gear was a handgun, night stick, cuffs and a radio. I don't know how many times I went on calls like the one in the article. I would have pretty much classified this as a domestic. You've got the staff on one side of the argument and the old man on the other in a place where they all live together. Step one is to get the staff and everyone else around out of earshot. People tend to talk crap in these kind of calls - just like the passenger on a traffic stop always wants their two cents. I don't need that. Step two is make sure there isn't any other threat around, other than the visible ones. If you aren't sure, move the discussion to a place that is clear. In my day we couldn't pull a gun on a defensive knife, that was night stick level. A cane and a shoe horn? Lol. Even if the old guy is standing there waving a knife around - you just stand back and talk to the guy. I'll kind big and tall, so if I can sit someplace and just talk to people about things that have nothing to do about the incident to get them calmed down, it works for me. If a half hour of talking about his old career didn't calm him, I'd make him lunge at me, move out of the way, and down he would go.

The point is there was a reason the guy felt threatened enough to feel he needed to drop the shoe horn and cane and resort to the knife.


Yeah, the cops are on the way.
 
2013-07-28 01:10:07 PM  

hardinparamedic: Lego_Addict: but the bottom line is if this was handled better the old man would still be alive.

You know nothing about what was going on with him. At all. He had a sudden and acute mental status change far beyond what was normal for him PRIOR to the altercation, and had to be transferred from the hospital he was taken to to a tertiary care facility where he died 5 hours later after losing consciousness at the hospital.

Something else was going on that had NOTHING to do with the fact he got stabby and got beaned for it.


You know nothing John Snow!

Seriously, that article helps prove my point as much as it does your point.

Your reasoning is real neat and all but fact still remains tasering and beaning a 95 year old man who has had an acute change in mental status is a dumb move. I mean by human standards, not what ever standards you seem to adhere to.

If I was first on scene, I would have probably picked up a cane and dueled him. Swashbuckle style. Knocked any knife out of his hand. I'd probably be invited back for the matinee.
 
2013-07-28 01:28:08 PM  

Lego_Addict: Your reasoning is real neat and all but fact still remains tasering and beaning a 95 year old man who has had an acute change in mental status is a dumb move. I mean by human standards, not what ever standards you seem to adhere to.


At the point he grabbed a knife, it was either that or shoot him. Which one, in your mind, has the greater chance of allowing him to survive the encounter?

Lego_Addict: If I was first on scene, I would have probably picked up a cane and dueled him. Swashbuckle style. Knocked any knife out of his hand. I'd probably be invited back for the matinee.


Real life is not a comedy movie.

Also, this.

www.aboyandhiscomputer.com
 
2013-07-28 02:35:07 PM  

eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.


...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?
 
2013-07-28 04:13:20 PM  

hardinparamedic: pedrop357: Yeah, you're a guy who doesn't want to be taken somewhere against his will.

Sometimes you don't have a choice legally. But something tells me you know this.


Yes, but the factors that lead to that legal issue should also alter how they respond to him.

It's total bullshiat to say that a person isn't mentally capable of saying NO, but then react to their behavior as if they're of sound mind.

You don't get to tase or shoot your 5 year old because they pick up wiffle ball bat and say "No" they're not going to the dentist.  The same thing that makes them unable to legally make that decision should also require that a response to their defiance be different than if they were 25 and of sound mind.
 
2013-07-28 04:16:25 PM  

hardinparamedic: Lego_Addict: In my opinion, your still a piece of shiat for tasering and beaning a 95 year old man.

You always come in to these threads spewing "but procedure allows cops to do this" bullshiat and miss the entire point.

You seem to miss the point yourself. He was threatening to kill someone with a knife. No one is under any obligation to get stabbed by someone, let alone by someone who is not in his right mind and more than likely CANNOT be reasoned with.

Maybe they should have just gotten knifed in the chest while wrestling with him. I'm sure that's in their job description SOMEWHERE. Or shot him? You know, at least if they had shot him, we'd know he died because of them. Not have the question of why he died two days later after being wheeled out while conscious and talking.

Ficoce: I'm sorry, I wasn't looking at it from your point of view. Yes, as a paramedic you need to get the hell out of the way and let the police handle the 95 year old cane waving men at assisted living facilities. Some people don't want your help and sometimes it's best to let the people that don't care handle it - it's too bad when tazers are the easy way out. Lots of other options.

He wasn't waving a cane around. He was waving a 12-inch long knife around.

What other options were there, in the case of someone who was being involuntarily transported (I.e. He does not have the right or choice to refus) and who is not in their right mind and is armed with a knife? Again, should they have just shot him and been done with it?

Leaving him alone was not an option.


You're still carrying on? He didn't pull the knife until after the cops got there. So here he is, 95 year old guy that needs a cane to walk, slowly hobbling toward you with a knife in an aggressive manner. You slowly back through the doorway and close the door. What does he do? He needs the cane to stand up and can't open the door with that huge knife in the other hand. He just stands there thinking. It's possible in his prime he was an assassin for the French underground during WWII,  but at this point he has about had it. He gets the door open and you throw a pillow at him - falls down, breaks a hip, and you perform your medical magic.
 
2013-07-28 04:19:06 PM  

hardinparamedic: Lego_Addict: Your reasoning is real neat and all but fact still remains tasering and beaning a 95 year old man who has had an acute change in mental status is a dumb move. I mean by human standards, not what ever standards you seem to adhere to.

At the point he grabbed a knife, it was either that or shoot him. Which one, in your mind, has the greater chance of allowing him to survive the encounter?

Lego_Addict: If I was first on scene, I would have probably picked up a cane and dueled him. Swashbuckle style. Knocked any knife out of his hand. I'd probably be invited back for the matinee.

Real life is not a comedy movie.

Also, this.


What used to happen before tasers? Certainly the cops we'ren't shooting every combatitive person they came across, knife wielders included.

You really think it would work as a comedy movie or are you just being nice?
 
2013-07-28 06:07:58 PM  

PsiChick: eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.

...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?


You didn't read the part where he was 95 and attacking paramedics trying helping him?  There's this thing called 'dementia'.  He's irrational and the safest thing for him AND everyone else around him is to get him under control as soon as possible.   What rational conversation did you think you can have with armed people with mental illness that makes them prone to violence?  Did you think the paramedics with health care and mental health care training, who had neither Tasers or guns weren't trying to verbally convince him to get treated and were still attacked?   Are you usually this detached from reality?
 
2013-07-28 06:24:38 PM  

tbeatty: PsiChick: eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.

...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?

You didn't read the part where he was 95 and attacking paramedics trying helping him?  There's this thing called 'dementia'.  He's irrational and the safest thing for him AND everyone else around him is to get him under control as soon as possible.   What rational conversation did you think you can have with armed people with mental illness that makes them prone to violence?  Did you think the paramedics with health care and mental health care training, who had neither Tasers or guns weren't trying to verbally convince him to get treated and were still attacked?   Are you usually this detached from reality?


As someone else suggested in the thread: "Okay, well, you don't have to go, buddy, but we need you to sign this...GRAB HIM!". Failing that, use the beanbags first. Hell,  make equipment for dealing with elderly dementia patients.

Normally, I'm all for using the quickest means necessary to get violently mentally ill people under control. Normally, we aren't talking about people who die after breaking a hip. If there isn't a means to deal with this already, that doesn't mean there never will be, it means we need to  start creating those means.
 
2013-07-28 06:27:26 PM  

tbeatty: PsiChick: eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.

...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?

You didn't read the part where he was 95 and attacking paramedics trying helping him?  There's this thing called 'dementia'.  He's irrational and the safest thing for him AND everyone else around him is to get him under control as soon as possible.   What rational conversation did you think you can have with armed people with mental illness that makes them prone to violence?  Did you think the paramedics with health care and mental health care training, who had neither Tasers or guns weren't trying to verbally convince him to get treated and were still attacked?   Are you usually this detached from reality?


He was "attacking" the paramedics with a 2 ft shoehorn and a metal cane. He didn't pick up the knife until police came. Frankly this was handled pretty poorly.
 
2013-07-28 06:48:20 PM  
Go out fighting. Always a win.
 
2013-07-28 08:34:21 PM  
themiserablesblog.files.wordpress.com

Hey, at least he died with his boots on...
 
2013-07-28 11:01:44 PM  

redmid17: tbeatty: PsiChick: eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.

...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?

You didn't read the part where he was 95 and attacking paramedics trying helping him?  There's this thing called 'dementia'.  He's irrational and the safest thing for him AND everyone else around him is to get him under control as soon as possible.   What rational conversation did you think you can have with armed people with mental illness that makes them prone to violence?  Did you think the paramedics with health care and mental health care training, who had neither Tasers or guns weren't trying to verbally convince him to get treated and were still attacked?   Are you usually this detached from reality?

He was "attacking" the paramedics with a 2 ft shoehorn and a metal cane. He didn't pick up the knife until police came. Frankly this was handled pretty poorly.


He attacked paramedics.  Think about the rational reason for doing that (hint: there isn't one).  Not sure what kind of Unicorn dust and fairy magic you carry, but the paramedics were not able to calm, or subdue him or they would have.  Paramedics deal with the elderly and dementia routinely.   The police used the least amount of physical force.  Stop pretending that speaking louder will make him understand he is being unreasonable.  You obviously have little or no experience dealing with dementia or the elderly.   Let's start by understanding that the knife or cane must be physically removed from him.  Contracting  his own 95 year old muscles with a Taser will inflict a lot less stress on his bones than tackling him or performing a joint lock by a police officer or paramedic.  The Taser only applies the force his own muscles can generate.  Falling is his biggest danger with a Taser.  The paramedic's could have subdued him, but probably not without more severe injury and is why they called police.  He was alert and talking after the Taser and the paramedics were called for a reason.   Now when you look at a 95 year old's death and learn that someone called 911 the day before for a medical emergency, it's probably a good bet that the medical condition is life threatening which someone recognized before paramedics or police arrived
 
2013-07-28 11:20:43 PM  
Egads, how much of colossal pussy does someone have to be to need to a taser & a beanbag to take down a 95 year old man?

Oh that's right...
 
2013-07-28 11:27:24 PM  

you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people


I was talking about non-lethal force used by cops with a friend a couple of years ago and I remember him saying the exact same thing.  You really hit it on the nail.
 
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  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

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