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(STLToday)   If you live to be 95 and die at home, you win. If you die at the hospital after fighting the cops with a cane, shoehorn and butcher knife, you get on Fark, which is still kind of a win   (stltoday.com) divider line 138
    More: Strange, butcher knife, bean bags, Taser, canes, shoehorn  
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8167 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2013 at 12:12 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-28 01:46:02 AM
24.media.tumblr.com

Eat Hickory!
 
2013-07-28 01:50:53 AM
Buzz off!

www.wrestlecrap.com
 
2013-07-28 01:51:40 AM

hardinparamedic: However, at the point you grab a butcher knife and try to stab someone?


That's the point where someone is defending himself. It matters not if they were cops or not when someone who has committed no crime against anyone is being forced out of his home against his will.

What should have happened is when he did not want to go, they should have left him the fark alone. What's the worst that could happen to him if he doesn't go to the hospital? He could die. Well, what happened to him when he was hit with a taser? He died. Likely someone of his age it's a pretty high probability that he would die from the application of such force. What would have happened if they just waited until he agreed to go? Not a whole hell of a lot considering he was in good enough shape to put up significant resistance.
 
2013-07-28 01:59:48 AM
"I once killed 20 Gerries while armed with just a pocket shoe horn and a picture of Betty Grable, so bring it on you pig bastards!"
I hope he went out yelling something along those lines. He was a Christopher Lee badass 95 year old for all we know.
 
2013-07-28 01:59:53 AM
Answer me this. What legal authority do they have to force him to go to the hospital?  Perhaps the old guy knew he was close to dying and preferred to do that at home instead of bankrupting his family by going to a hospital.
 
2013-07-28 02:02:41 AM

leadmetal: What should have happened is when he did not want to go, they should have left him the fark alone. What's the worst that could happen to him if he doesn't go to the hospital? He could die.


And then everyone involved would have been held professionally and civilly liable for the death. In addition, the transport was for an involuntary commitment in the first place from a senior living center. Not a nursing home, but similar to an assisted living community.

leadmetal: What would have happened if they just waited until he agreed to go?


Real life is not as black and white as you seem to have the idealized view of the world of. In addition, this article presents NO information. Had you actually spent five minutes on google, you would realize that he did not have a choice in the matter of going.

FTFAThe man was threatening facility staff and paramedics with a metal cane and a 2-foot metal shoehorn when officers arrived, police said.He refused to drop the items when commanded and instead grabbed a 12-inch butcher knife, police said.

Considering the case is still under investigation and he's pending an autopsy, I'd reserve your judgement. The fact he was wheeled out of there talking and responsive, but died two days later should make you step away from tunnel vision, and look at other causes.
 
2013-07-28 02:03:19 AM

OgreMagi: The paramedics can not force someone to go to the hospital.  They were committing assault on the old dude.  He had every right to defend himself.


www.supermanofsteel.com
 
2013-07-28 02:05:55 AM

hardinparamedic: FTFA:  The man was threatening facility staff and paramedics with a metal cane and a 2-foot metal shoehorn when officers arrived, police said.He refused to drop the items when commanded and instead grabbed a 12-inch butcher knife, police said.

Considering the case is still under investigation and he's pending an autopsy, I'd reserve your judgement. The fact he was wheeled out of there talking and responsive, but died two days later should make you step away from tunnel vision, and look at other causes.


Withholding judgment is the prudent thing to do, but I'm pretty sure trauma from being tazed and being hit by a bean bag round when you're 95 don't exactly help.
 
2013-07-28 02:07:02 AM

redmid17: but I'm pretty sure trauma from being tazed and being hit by a bean bag round when you're 95 don't exactly help.


True. But all the articles I'm finding with google-fu seem to indicate that not all the information is being shared. Particularly why he was being transported for an involuntary commitment.
 
2013-07-28 02:11:09 AM

Emposter: lewismarktwo: Meh, police have devolved into an armed gang of taxmen, but if some old coot pulls a knife on me I wouldn't try to wrestle with him ifin I had me a taser.

/he probably didn't pull a knife

What you SHOULD do is LEAVE.  They had no reason to do anythign at all to the old dude.  He didn't want to go to the hospital.  Not wanting to go to the hospital is not a crime.  Forcing him to defend himself, then tasering him because he does so is not allowed.  Leave him the fark alone.


Yeah, cause when Gramps doesn't know what day of the week it is, what year it is, or where he is, he can definitely make a decision on whether he needs to go to the hospital or not.
 
2013-07-28 02:12:21 AM

hardinparamedic: redmid17: but I'm pretty sure trauma from being tazed and being hit by a bean bag round when you're 95 don't exactly help.

True. But all the articles I'm finding with google-fu seem to indicate that not all the information is being shared. Particularly why he was being transported for an involuntary commitment.


I mean given how he reacted, I just assumed it was something psychiatric related. The staff probably felt he was a danger to others, not just himself. I can't really think of much that would be immediately life threatening and let a 95 year old remain combative enough to resist a tazing. Then again I'm not a doctor.

Either way, it really doesn't look good.
 
2013-07-28 02:14:17 AM

redmid17: I mean given how he reacted, I just assumed it was something psychiatric related. The staff probably felt he was a danger to others, not just himself. I can't really think of much that would be immediately life threatening and let a 95 year old remain combative enough to resist a tazing. Then again I'm not a doctor.

Either way, it really doesn't look good.


Given the fact that he's living in an assisted living facility, and not a nursing home, I'm going to speculate here and state he was being transported under a doctor's order and with his family's knowledge for acute delirium, especially given his behavior.

But I'll be interested to see the autopsy findings. I'm going to follow this case. I'll be especially interested in his urine/blood culture.
 
2013-07-28 02:16:31 AM

OgreMagi: Under very limited conditions, "danger to self or others" being an example.  "For a checkup" is not on the list.


Actually, not under very limited conditions.

1) Minor with guardian/parent consent, even if 1 day away from 18.
2) Not of sound mind by court order or by legal documentation provided by POA.
3) Suspected acute delirium or psychiatric episode where patient is a danger to themselves or others.
4) Altered Mental Status where the patient is unable to give informed consent or refusal - especially if they cannot pass a Mini-Mental Status Exam.
5) Intoxication or Drug Ingestion which alters mentation.
6) In custody of Police Department.
 
2013-07-28 02:17:54 AM

thatboyoverthere: What everyone seems to ignore is that the guy grabbed a butcher knife. At that point you can't just tackle the guy like with a shoehorn and/or a cane as it's a blade. Yes a tazer and a beanbag were the reasonable options. It's that or having an extended standoff in the old's folks home which could be bad as they would have to evacuate it and a lot of them you can't have them walk out. Or shooting the person.


They're pretty old. You could probably just wait for them to die.
 
2013-07-28 02:27:09 AM
It's a mathematical relationship, the fewer the facts of the case, the greater the numbers of evolutionist cop haters.
 
2013-07-28 02:30:08 AM

trappedspirit: It's a mathematical relationship, the fewer the facts of the case, the greater the numbers of evolutionist cop haters.


I don't want to be Captain Obvious here, but generally the reason why there are fewer facts available is because the cops don't release them. People don't respond well when it looks like people are deliberately hiding things from them, whether or not that it's true or fair.
 
2013-07-28 02:39:43 AM
i hate cops just as much as the rest of you, but in this case it seems like a lose-lose situation.  how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?  honestly, this is exactly the kind of situation where a tazer is the right course of action.  of course it sounds like a terrible idea to tazer an old man, but if my options are "tazer an old man" or "get stabbed in the chest with a butcher knife" i'm gonna go with the tazer.  the old guy was dangerous and the cops had to do something to restrain him.  a sad story all around, but i don't think the cops are to blame for his death.
 
2013-07-28 02:46:42 AM

enderthexenocide: i hate cops just as much as the rest of you, but in this case it seems like a lose-lose situation.  how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?  honestly, this is exactly the kind of situation where a tazer is the right course of action.  of course it sounds like a terrible idea to tazer an old man, but if my options are "tazer an old man" or "get stabbed in the chest with a butcher knife" i'm gonna go with the tazer.  the old guy was dangerous and the cops had to do something to restrain him.  a sad story all around, but i don't think the cops are to blame for his death.


I don't hate cops. Just the bad ones, which are the ones we always hear about. The majority of good cops don't make the news very often.
 
2013-07-28 02:47:32 AM

Xanlexian: Cops killed (great)grandpa.  Way to instill trust in the police across a few generations at once.

God bless our courageous brave boys in blue.


OTOH it is pretty much the best way to confuse the hell out anyone who cares about you.

A: "I'm sorry for your loss... he lived a long life."
B: "Oh, he didn't die of old age, he was killed by the police."
A: "Wat"
 
2013-07-28 02:50:48 AM
God forbid you deescalate the situation.

And by that I do not mean 'kill the old man threatening you'

Yeah yeah, those poor cops. They had no choice but to kill the guy. He was a threat against  A POLICE OFFICER SERVING IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THAT HAD A DUTY TO GO HOME TO HIS FAMILY blah blah blah

You are a shiatty cop if you can't subdue a person nearing 100 years of age without killing them. Period. If the guy was half out of his mind you have even more of a duty to resolve the issue without killing someone.

Lick them badges and boots a bit more guys.

Some people might think the cops were justified, but unless the guy was holding a locked and loaded firearm they over reacted and should be held accountable.

/can someone tell me why I should hold any respect for an officer that doesn't place any personal sacrifice or risk in the line of duty? Isn't that what we pay them for? Isn't that why they are supposed to garner our respect?

enderthexenocide: . how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?


Very carefully. That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.
 
2013-07-28 02:51:39 AM

thatboyoverthere: What everyone seems to ignore is that the guy grabbed a butcher knife. At that point you can't just tackle the guy like with a shoehorn and/or a cane as it's a blade. Yes a tazer and a beanbag were the reasonable options. It's that or having an extended standoff in the old's folks home which could be bad as they would have to evacuate it and a lot of them you can't have them walk out. Or shooting the person.


Is it unreasonable to simply ask our LEOs to tell Gramps that he can drop the knife or have his head caved in by a billy club? If he won't, seems like a good knock to the melon would have gotten grandpa's attention and he'd have had a shot at making 96. Don't they teach stickhandling in cop school?

/ Submitter I think this is my HOTY.
 
2013-07-28 02:57:07 AM
Old person CSB: My great-grandfather, who smoked all his life, was 94 when he was in hospital for pneumonia. The first day he was there, he (a frail, small man) was restrained to his bed because he wanted a cigarette and staff wouldn't let him go out to smoke. He was thrashing about and screaming at them for a cig in four languages - English, Spanish, German, and French. This went on for three days. He died a week later. Most people in my family think that had he been able to have a damn smoke, he'd still be with us today.

/started at age 13
//Camel non-filters
///RIP, Grandpa Cecil
 
2013-07-28 02:59:13 AM

Smock Pot: Old person CSB: My great-grandfather, who smoked all his life, was 94 when he was in hospital for pneumonia. The first day he was there, he (a frail, small man) was restrained to his bed because he wanted a cigarette and staff wouldn't let him go out to smoke. He was thrashing about and screaming at them for a cig in four languages - English, Spanish, German, and French. This went on for three days. He died a week later. Most people in my family think that had he been able to have a damn smoke, he'd still be with us today.

/started at age 13
//Camel non-filters
///RIP, Grandpa Cecil


Yeah but cigarettes can kill you
 
2013-07-28 02:59:52 AM
lesson learned: when you get shuffled off to an assisted living center, pack and hide heat.
 
2013-07-28 03:14:18 AM
farking assholes
No, he ca't be forced to go to the hospital if he doesn't want to. He has every right to refuse. Sure, you can try talking him in to it, and if you do it correctly, ina non-confrontational way, you have an excellent chance of compliance.
"You're coming with us" and calling the cops in is not the way to do it. I farking hate cowboy farking medics with no farking skills.
 
2013-07-28 03:15:30 AM

MurphyMurphy: God forbid you deescalate the situation.

And by that I do not mean 'kill the old man threatening you'

Yeah yeah, those poor cops. They had no choice but to kill the guy. He was a threat against  A POLICE OFFICER SERVING IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THAT HAD A DUTY TO GO HOME TO HIS FAMILY blah blah blah

You are a shiatty cop if you can't subdue a person nearing 100 years of age without killing them. Period. If the guy was half out of his mind you have even more of a duty to resolve the issue without killing someone.

Lick them badges and boots a bit more guys.

Some people might think the cops were justified, but unless the guy was holding a locked and loaded firearm they over reacted and should be held accountable.

/can someone tell me why I should hold any respect for an officer that doesn't place any personal sacrifice or risk in the line of duty? Isn't that what we pay them for? Isn't that why they are supposed to garner our respect?

enderthexenocide: . how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?

Very carefully. That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.


So the fact that the old man was in the hospital, awake and talking, for two days after the incident before dying doesn't even make you THINK of backing off the accusation that the cops killed him? You know, 95-year olds can kind of go at any time, and a sudden change in mental status isn't a good sign as far as longevity goes. It's not like they zapped him and he went into cardiac arrest right there. Perhaps we should wait for stuff like investigations and autopsy results before we accuse the cops of killing him.

I don't love cops (or hate them, really) but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that the tasing had anything to do with the death, and I'm not going to criticize a cop for tasing a man waving a butcher knife around. That's exactly what the taser was made for; a less lethal alternative to using a firearm. Cops using a taser as a compliance device ("Get up or I'll tase you!") makes me angry, cops tasing a crazy man with a weapon makes me glad they didn't have to shoot him.
 
2013-07-28 03:22:59 AM

cretinbob: farking assholes
No, he ca't be forced to go to the hospital if he doesn't want to. He has every right to refuse. Sure, you can try talking him in to it, and if you do it correctly, ina non-confrontational way, you have an excellent chance of compliance.
"You're coming with us" and calling the cops in is not the way to do it. I farking hate cowboy farking medics with no farking skills.


He didn't have "every right" to refuse. He was in a long-term assisted living facility that had control over his medical care. They said he was going, so he was going.

Why is it hard to imagine that a 95-year old has dementia and does not have the capacity to refuse?
 
2013-07-28 03:24:33 AM

MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.


You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion. These officers used "non-lethal" force against the subject in the form of a TASER, which failed to subdue the old man. The LEOs then escalated to another non-lethal take-down method, the beanbag round. That caused the old man to drop the knife and he was taken into custody, conscious and communicating. He was taken to the hospital where he died...almost six hours later.

The LEOs used "this shiat called training" and, though unlikely, it is possible that the old man died later from being 95 years old. We won't know until the autopsy is complete.

The article linked is incomplete and stupid, really. Read the original article for more of a whole-story article.
 
2013-07-28 03:39:46 AM

lizyrd: So the fact that the old man was in the hospital, awake and talking, for two days after the incident before dying


eldritch2k4: He was taken to the hospital where he died...almost six hours later.


Which is it?

eldritch2k4: The LEOs used "this shiat called training"


I'd say they "used this training called shiat" personally.

lizyrd: don't love cops (or hate them, really) but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that the tasing had anything to do with the death, and I'm not going to criticize a cop for tasing a man waving a butcher knife around. That's exactly what the taser was made for; a less lethal alternative to using a firearm.


first, "less lethal" is complete bullshiat if in fact it ends up killing someone.

I have no problem conceding that perhaps this guy just magically happened to die after the confrontation, because he was in fact old. What my real problem is, is that people (like you) seem to see nothing wrong with a cop using a taser and then a beanbag round on a person almost 100 years of age.

If you can't disarm a 95 year old man wielding a knife without deploying high tech "less than lethal" *cough bullshiat cough* technologies, you have no business being a cop.

If you can't align with that, then we will have to agree to disagree.

/have any of you seen actually seen a 95 year old man?

//my uncle louis is that old, he fought nazi's and still rides a horse. Tough old coot, but he's not going to kill anyone with a knife unless they are asleep.
 
2013-07-28 03:57:43 AM

MurphyMurphy: lizyrd: So the fact that the old man was in the hospital, awake and talking, for two days after the incident before dying

eldritch2k4: He was taken to the hospital where he died...almost six hours later.

Which is it?

eldritch2k4: The LEOs used "this shiat called training"

I'd say they "used this training called shiat" personally.

lizyrd: don't love cops (or hate them, really) but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that the tasing had anything to do with the death, and I'm not going to criticize a cop for tasing a man waving a butcher knife around. That's exactly what the taser was made for; a less lethal alternative to using a firearm.

first, "less lethal" is complete bullshiat if in fact it ends up killing someone.

I have no problem conceding that perhaps this guy just magically happened to die after the confrontation, because he was in fact old. What my real problem is, is that people (like you) seem to see nothing wrong with a cop using a taser and then a beanbag round on a person almost 100 years of age.

If you can't disarm a 95 year old man wielding a knife without deploying high tech "less than lethal" *cough bullshiat cough* technologies, you have no business being a cop.

If you can't align with that, then we will have to agree to disagree.

/have any of you seen actually seen a 95 year old man?

//my uncle louis is that old, he fought nazi's and still rides a horse. Tough old coot, but he's not going to kill anyone with a knife unless they are asleep.


Per the article linked in my previous statement, the LEOs were called at 8:42PM Friday evening and he died around 2:30 AM Saturday morning.

Additionally, your Uncle Louis and most other people would probably go down after a TASER strike. This guy didn't, hence the beanbag round. Anyone who can take a TASER strike and not go down is fully capable of killing a person with a 12" knife. I do have a problem with TASERing or beanbagging a 95 year old man who is barely able to stand with a walker. However, that's not what happened here. The LEOs assessed and responded to a threat and did not respond with enough force, initially. Again, the 95 year old man stayed on his feet and combative after a TASER strike. Even if we concede that a TASER should not have been the initial go to application of force, the result (95 year old man not going to the floor) justified that use of force and more.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE (don't care if it is a 2569 year old cookie baking midget), who can withstand a TASER strike is not someone I want to get into hand to hand combat with. Basically, I don't care how old a person is, a TASER can be a justified application of force depending on the situation.
 
2013-07-28 04:16:11 AM

eldritch2k4: Additionally, your Uncle Louis and most other people would probably go down after a TASER strike. This guy didn't, hence the beanbag round. Anyone who can take a TASER strike and not go down is fully capable of killing a person with a 12" knife. I do have a problem with TASERing or beanbagging a 95 year old man who is barely able to stand with a walker. However, that's not what happened here. The LEOs assessed and responded to a threat and did not respond with enough force, initially. Again, the 95 year old man stayed on his feet and combative after a TASER strike. Even if we concede that a TASER should not have been the initial go to application of force, the result (95 year old man not going to the floor) justified that use of force and more.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE (don't care if it is a 2569 year old cookie baking midget), who can withstand a TASER strike is not someone I want to get into hand to hand combat with. Basically, I don't care how old a person is, a TASER can be a justified application of force depending on the situation.


It's amazing that someone can simultaneously presume

-that an old person didn't die after receiving a taser and a beanbag round but instead just coincidentally happened to die of old age

and

-cops, instead of having used too much force and maybe stretching a few details afterwards to cover their asses, had apparently stumbled upon the most herculean and resilient 95 year old man on the planet

/like I said, I don't think you've actually seen many people that are 95 years of age
 
2013-07-28 04:19:29 AM

eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: lizyrd: So the fact that the old man was in the hospital, awake and talking, for two days after the incident before dying

eldritch2k4: He was taken to the hospital where he died...almost six hours later.

Which is it?

eldritch2k4: The LEOs used "this shiat called training"

I'd say they "used this training called shiat" personally.

lizyrd: don't love cops (or hate them, really) but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that the tasing had anything to do with the death, and I'm not going to criticize a cop for tasing a man waving a butcher knife around. That's exactly what the taser was made for; a less lethal alternative to using a firearm.

first, "less lethal" is complete bullshiat if in fact it ends up killing someone.

I have no problem conceding that perhaps this guy just magically happened to die after the confrontation, because he was in fact old. What my real problem is, is that people (like you) seem to see nothing wrong with a cop using a taser and then a beanbag round on a person almost 100 years of age.

If you can't disarm a 95 year old man wielding a knife without deploying high tech "less than lethal" *cough bullshiat cough* technologies, you have no business being a cop.

If you can't align with that, then we will have to agree to disagree.

/have any of you seen actually seen a 95 year old man?

//my uncle louis is that old, he fought nazi's and still rides a horse. Tough old coot, but he's not going to kill anyone with a knife unless they are asleep.

Per the article linked in my previous statement, the LEOs were called at 8:42PM Friday evening and he died around 2:30 AM Saturday morning.

Additionally, your Uncle Louis and most other people would probably go down after a TASER strike. This guy didn't, hence the beanbag round. Anyone who can take a TASER strike and not go down is fully capable of killing a person with a 12" knife. I do have a problem with TASERing or beanbagging a 95 year old man who is barely able to stand with ...


Tasers can be misapplied. There's no guarantee the old guy actually received the "taze"
 
2013-07-28 04:30:25 AM

MurphyMurphy: It's amazing that someone can simultaneously presume

-that an old person didn't die after receiving a taser and a beanbag round but instead just coincidentally happened to die of old age

and

-cops, instead of having used too much force and maybe stretching a few details afterwards to cover their asses, had apparently stumbled upon the most herculean and resilient 95 year old man on the planet

/like I said, I don't think you've actually seen many people that are 95 years of age


I bolded, underlined and italicized the portion of my original statement where I noted that it was extremely unlikely that he died of anything other than complication from the application of force. I said it was possible, what with the ride in the ambulance being the reason for all the fighting. I also tend to believe statements that have EMTs, RNs and other witnesses on hand. Had this been an old man in an alley with only the LEOs' around to tell the story afterward, I would be calling bullshiat on their statements faster than you. And, after all of that, I said that we won't know what killed him until the autopsy report is released.

I've seen plenty of people who are 95 years old, but I've seen enough people to know that outliers exist. I've seen 80+ year old body builders and all manner of other outliers. What I have is the ability to recognize that just because most people can't doesn't mean no one can.

redmid17: Tasers can be misapplied. There's no guarantee the old guy actually received the "taze"


True, but in a situation where a man is waving a knife and just took a TASER, are you going to take the time to administer the exam to determine if he felt the TASER or are you going to continue attempting to stop him from waving the knife around?
 
2013-07-28 04:39:57 AM

eldritch2k4: redmid17: Tasers can be misapplied. There's no guarantee the old guy actually received the "taze"

True, but in a situation where a man is waving a knife and just took a TASER, are you going to take the time to administer the exam to determine if he felt the TASER or are you going to continue attempting to stop him from waving the knife around?


Frankly I would have taken his cane and shoehorn before he had a chance to pick up the knife, but that is just me and hindsight talking. To be honest, no matter what the situation is, it's extremely embarrassing that cops had to resort to a taser and beanbag round to subdue a 95 year old man. It's even more sad that he eventually died, and it was likely from the trauma that occurred from the aforementioned conflict.
 
2013-07-28 04:42:20 AM
You kick the old guy or trip him and he goes down. Then you pick up the knife or shoehorn and you take him to the hospital with hopefully no broken bones. I think I could pull that off, why can't this cop?
 
2013-07-28 04:58:25 AM
If you can't figure out how to subdue a 95 year old man without using a taser, you're a huge pussy and shouldn't be a cop.

Besides which, he could simply have been outsmarted.  Say, "ok, you win, we aren't taking you to the hospital.  Now, I have to fill out such and such a form and have you sign it, blah blah blah", and eventually he lets go of the knife.
 
2013-07-28 05:19:44 AM

you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people


Hmmm, 95 y/o starts off by attacking paramedics with a knife.  Let's just say A) the ambulance might just be indicative of a urgent health issue and B) attacking paramedics might just mean his rational thought elevator doesn't reach all the floors.

/He was conscious and talking after Taser subdued him.  It was not cause of death or even contributory.
//Let's go out on a limb and say maybe he died because of the thing they called the ambulance,
///Tasers were never meant to be used instead of shooting people.  They are usually the same level of force as hands-on or baton or pepper spray or other less-than-lethal methods.  It's true that shootings have gone done but not nearly as much as pepper spray and baton use.  Shootings go down because the taser allows the officer to apply force at a distance whereas a close proximity method like baton or hands-on  can escalate to lethal force very quickly or may be impractical..   Injuries and deaths related to taking people into custody are also way down
 
2013-07-28 05:25:18 AM

tbeatty: you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people

Hmmm, 95 y/o starts off by attacking paramedics with a knife.  Let's just say A) the ambulance might just be indicative of a urgent health issue and B) attacking paramedics might just mean his rational thought elevator doesn't reach all the floors.

/He was conscious and talking after Taser subdued him.  It was not cause of death or even contributory.
//Let's go out on a limb and say maybe he died because of the thing they called the ambulance,
///Tasers were never meant to be used instead of shooting people.  They are usually the same level of force as hands-on or baton or pepper spray or other less-than-lethal methods.  It's true that shootings have gone done but not nearly as much as pepper spray and baton use.  Shootings go down because the taser allows the officer to apply force at a distance whereas a close proximity method like baton or hands-on  can escalate to lethal force very quickly or may be impractical..   Injuries and deaths related to taking people into custody are also way down


It helps if you actually read the article and/or know anything about the situation.
 
2013-07-28 05:28:18 AM
He was 95. It would be easy to just walk up and casually disarm him.
 
2013-07-28 05:35:12 AM
I saw an 86 year old guy in the ER with a knife stuck in his rib over his heart. His 87 year old wife found him in bed with a younger, 66 year old, woman and did her damnedest to kill the old bastard but she hit the rib so hard she couldn't pull out the knife for a second stab. The old guy, who was brought in completely naked, dismissed the event as a misunderstanding and refused to press charges. I'm not sure how you can misunderstand 2 people being naked in bed together but he'd made up his mind and the cops couldn't dissuade him.
 
2013-07-28 05:54:06 AM

hardinparamedic: However, at the point you grab a butcher knife and try to stab someone? Yeah. You stop being grandpa.


Yeah, you're a guy who doesn't want to be taken somewhere against his will.
 
2013-07-28 05:55:49 AM
Don't taze me, sonny!
 
2013-07-28 06:16:17 AM

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Neighborhood Watch: The linked 'article' says that:  The Chicago Sun-Times reports the man became upset after an ambulance crew in Park Forest tried to take him to a medical facility.


Well for goodness sakes, if he doesn't want to go then he doesn't want to go.  If your patient is uncooperative or refuses treatment, you can't force them into an ambulance.  That's kidnapping.

Just leave, if that's what he wants.

I was wondering about that too so I went searching for more info.

Apparently he was a resident at a nursing home (or may have been more like assisted living), and the facility staff had called the ambulance to have him taken for treatment "involuntarily", and it says he was also threatening facility staff with the cane and (2 foot metal) shoehorn.  It's not clear from the article if the ambulance was called to take him because he was being combative, or if he became combative because of the ambulance (it doesn't say what they were having him taken for treatment of).
  However, I can see where the police couldn't just leave him there if he was threatening facility staff and he could have been a threat to other residents

"According to an e-mailed press release from Park Forest police, officers were sent to 101 Main Street in Park Forest about 8:42 p.m. to help a private ambulance company with a "combative" resident of the home there. The Victory Centre of Park Forest, a supportive living community for adults 65 and older according to its website, is at that address.
 The resident of the faculty was being "involuntarily" committed for medical treatment by staff at the Victory Centre, the release said."


Well, this will certainly teach the rest of the residents a lesson. If they can remember it.

I just can't believe there was no one that said FFS and took the old guy's 'weapons' away. How does a 95 yo nursing home resident acquire a butcher knife anyway? Did it come baked in a cake his girlfriend brought to the home?
 
2013-07-28 07:02:46 AM
hardinparamedic:  I'll be especially interested in his urine/blood culture.

Anything to beat off to, huh? Pervert!
 
2013-07-28 07:30:21 AM

redmid17: tbeatty: you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people

Hmmm, 95 y/o starts off by attacking paramedics with a knife.  Let's just say A) the ambulance might just be indicative of a urgent health issue and B) attacking paramedics might just mean his rational thought elevator doesn't reach all the floors.

/He was conscious and talking after Taser subdued him.  It was not cause of death or even contributory.
//Let's go out on a limb and say maybe he died because of the thing they called the ambulance,
///Tasers were never meant to be used instead of shooting people.  They are usually the same level of force as hands-on or baton or pepper spray or other less-than-lethal methods.  It's true that shootings have gone done but not nearly as much as pepper spray and baton use.  Shootings go down because the taser allows the officer to apply force at a distance whereas a close proximity method like baton or hands-on  can escalate to lethal force very quickly or may be impractical..   Injuries and deaths related to taking people into custody are also way down

It helps if you actually read the article and/or know anything about the situation.


I know.  He should have done that.  Now try reading more than the 1st paragraph.  Actually you can skip the first paragraph in this article.and go to the narrative in chronological order starting with the second paragraph.
 
2013-07-28 07:38:52 AM
I am guessing senile agitation, with a shoe horn.
 
2013-07-28 07:43:37 AM

OscarTamerz: I saw an 86 year old guy in the ER with a knife stuck in his rib over his heart. His 87 year old wife found him in bed with a younger, 66 year old, woman and did her damnedest to kill the old bastard but she hit the rib so hard she couldn't pull out the knife for a second stab. The old guy, who was brought in completely naked, dismissed the event as a misunderstanding and refused to press charges. I'm not sure how you can misunderstand 2 people being naked in bed together but he'd made up his mind and the cops couldn't dissuade him.


And give his wife a second chance of getting it right?  That is why some areas have changed DV laws to take assailants to jail without victim cooperation.  Also, I am surprised they didn't haul him off to jail for getting with such a young girl, she's young enough to be his daughter.  Now she'll grow up all damaged and emotionally confused.
 
2013-07-28 07:47:22 AM
Not so sure about that headline. Fark is the reason I never want to be famous or make headlines in any way like ever
 
2013-07-28 08:36:39 AM

you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people


Do you have the idea that there's a certain age in which attacking people with butcher knives isn't a life threatening situation?

Without tazers, the officer would have to get within striking distance of the butcher knife, or shoot him dead.

Granted, the taser shot him dead, but that's what they're for. A step between a billy club and a 9 mm.

Now, if it comes out that the geezer was in his wheelchair, flinging the knife around for a show, then it is indeed over-reacting to a non-threat.
 
2013-07-28 08:39:49 AM
was he standing his ground though?

depends.
 
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