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(STLToday)   If you live to be 95 and die at home, you win. If you die at the hospital after fighting the cops with a cane, shoehorn and butcher knife, you get on Fark, which is still kind of a win   (stltoday.com) divider line 138
    More: Strange, butcher knife, bean bags, Taser, canes, shoehorn  
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8178 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2013 at 12:12 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



138 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-07-28 12:14:54 AM  
Cops had to use a tazer!  No time to wait until he fell asleep in 10 minutes.  There are speed traps to get back to!
 
2013-07-28 12:17:18 AM  
I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people
 
2013-07-28 12:18:55 AM  
The only thing that can stop a 95 year old man with a shoehorn is a 95 year old shoehorn with an old man.
 
2013-07-28 12:20:53 AM  
A shoehorn is a deadly weapon!
 
2013-07-28 12:21:24 AM  
Those poor patrolmen.

I hope the very best remediation assets are mustered, no expense spared, to assuage their damaged feelings.
 
2013-07-28 12:23:45 AM  
So our live long dream is to get on Fark?
 
2013-07-28 12:26:19 AM  
Man, when I'm 95, I want to be seen by the cops as that kind of threat.

"She was coming right at us with a shoehorn! We had no choice!"

I would die a happy, happy woman.
 
2013-07-28 12:26:58 AM  

you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people


Yes. They were originally only to be used when you WERE going to shoot someone; not as a compliance tool.
 
2013-07-28 12:27:41 AM  

Joliebleu: So our live long dream is to get on Fark?


I'd just like to get greenlit once. Feel like I have a better chance to be the subject of an article at this point.
 
2013-07-28 12:28:12 AM  
How is it that the more militarized the police become, the bigger pussies they are? I would think it would be embarrassing that you were defeated by a (95 year old man, 8 year old girl, sleeping elderly woman).
 
2013-07-28 12:28:59 AM  
What do you mean, you don't want to go to the hospital, old man? Here... Let me give you a reason to go! BZZZZAAAAPPPPP
 
2013-07-28 12:30:32 AM  
Cops killed (great)grandpa.  Way to instill trust in the police across a few generations at once.

God bless our courageous brave boys in blue.
 
2013-07-28 12:31:42 AM  

RepoManTSM: I'd just like to get greenlit once. Feel like I have a better chance to be the subject of an article at this point.


That is kinda sad. I mean really. A greenlit gets you nothing in the long run. So what does it matter? Nothing.
 
2013-07-28 12:31:58 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Man, when I'm 95, I want to be seen by the cops as that kind of threat.

"She was coming right at us with a shoehorn! We had no choice!"

I would die a happy, happy woman.


Replace "she" and "woman" with "he" and "old coot" and I have to say;
THIS!!!!!
 
2013-07-28 12:32:13 AM  
Tasering a 95 year old? Pussies.
 
2013-07-28 12:36:11 AM  
That's actually how I wanna go out!

Srsly, over 90, opinionated, fighting the machine. Can't really top that.
 
2013-07-28 12:38:41 AM  
The linked 'article' says that:  The Chicago Sun-Times reports the man became upset after an ambulance crew in Park Forest tried to take him to a medical facility.


Well for goodness sakes, if he doesn't want to go then he doesn't want to go.  If your patient is uncooperative or refuses treatment, you can't force them into an ambulance.  That's kidnapping.

Just leave, if that's what he wants.
 
2013-07-28 12:39:57 AM  

wildcardjack: That's actually how I wanna go out!

Srsly, over 90, opinionated, fighting the machine. Can't really top that.


On the downstroke.
 
2013-07-28 12:41:19 AM  
Meh, police have devolved into an armed gang of taxmen, but if some old coot pulls a knife on me I wouldn't try to wrestle with him ifin I had me a taser.

/he probably didn't pull a knife
 
2013-07-28 12:42:37 AM  
Subby, you got your headline from the Iliad:

"For my mother the goddess, silver-footed Thetis, telleth me that twofold fates are bearing me toward the doom of death: if I abide here and fight off the cops with a cane, then lost is my home-return, but my renown shall be imperishable on Fark.com; but if I stay in bed, lost then is my glorious Fark renown, yet shall my life long endure"
- Achilles (Iliad, 9.410-15)
 
2013-07-28 12:45:48 AM  

Johnny_Canuck: Tasering a 95 year old? Pussies.


this. i mean, really. just blow hard and grampa will fall over...giant farking pussies.
 
2013-07-28 12:50:35 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Man, when I'm 95, I want to be seen by the cops as that kind of threat.

"She was coming right at us with a shoehorn! We had no choice!"

I would die a happy, happy woman.


I like the way you think.
Lets go to Payless for some weaponry.
 
2013-07-28 12:53:58 AM  

lewismarktwo: Meh, police have devolved into an armed gang of taxmen, but if some old coot pulls a knife on me I wouldn't try to wrestle with him ifin I had me a taser.

/he probably didn't pull a knife


What you SHOULD do is LEAVE.  They had no reason to do anythign at all to the old dude.  He didn't want to go to the hospital.  Not wanting to go to the hospital is not a crime.  Forcing him to defend himself, then tasering him because he does so is not allowed.  Leave him the fark alone.
 
2013-07-28 12:55:22 AM  

Neighborhood Watch: The linked 'article' says that:  The Chicago Sun-Times reports the man became upset after an ambulance crew in Park Forest tried to take him to a medical facility.


Well for goodness sakes, if he doesn't want to go then he doesn't want to go.  If your patient is uncooperative or refuses treatment, you can't force them into an ambulance.  That's kidnapping.

Just leave, if that's what he wants.


I was wondering about that too so I went searching for more info.

Apparently he was a resident at a nursing home (or may have been more like assisted living), and the facility staff had called the ambulance to have him taken for treatment "involuntarily", and it says he was also threatening facility staff with the cane and (2 foot metal) shoehorn.  It's not clear from the article if the ambulance was called to take him because he was being combative, or if he became combative because of the ambulance (it doesn't say what they were having him taken for treatment of).
  However, I can see where the police couldn't just leave him there if he was threatening facility staff and he could have been a threat to other residents

"According to an e-mailed press release from Park Forest police, officers were sent to 101 Main Street in Park Forest about 8:42 p.m. to help a private ambulance company with a "combative" resident of the home there. The Victory Centre of Park Forest, a supportive living community for adults 65 and older according to its website, is at that address.
 The resident of the faculty was being "involuntarily" committed for medical treatment by staff at the Victory Centre, the release said."
 
2013-07-28 12:57:23 AM  

Emposter: lewismarktwo: Meh, police have devolved into an armed gang of taxmen, but if some old coot pulls a knife on me I wouldn't try to wrestle with him ifin I had me a taser.

/he probably didn't pull a knife

What you SHOULD do is LEAVE.  They had no reason to do anythign at all to the old dude.  He didn't want to go to the hospital.  Not wanting to go to the hospital is not a crime.  Forcing him to defend himself, then tasering him because he does so is not allowed.  Leave him the fark alone.


Pretty much this. What a shiatty way to go.
 
2013-07-28 12:57:30 AM  
It's better to burn out than to fade away. Hope I go out in a blaze of tabloid headlines.
 
2013-07-28 01:01:50 AM  

Emposter: He didn't want to go to the hospital.  Not wanting to go to the hospital is not a crime.


Something tells me you don't know as much as you think you know about the topic. FTFA, the Ambulance Crew on scene tried to take him to the hospital when he became violent with them. I'm willing to more than bet that if they were taking him against his will, he either had someone who was his POA directing him, or they felt he was not in his right mind.

Ambulance Crews are not in the habit of forcing people to go against their will. Those lawsuits get expensive, and they don't have the protection police have to involuntarily commit someone. The police tend to be hesitant to do it as well, since they're going to pay for the first 12-24 hours of an involuntary commitment and the medical care he receives as he's technically in custody for the hold.

However, at the point you grab a butcher knife and try to stab someone? Yeah. You stop being grandpa.

/I've seen 80 year old psych and dementia patients seriously mess up LPNs and CNAs.
 
2013-07-28 01:02:53 AM  
What everyone seems to ignore is that the guy grabbed a butcher knife. At that point you can't just tackle the guy like with a shoehorn and/or a cane as it's a blade. Yes a tazer and a beanbag were the reasonable options. It's that or having an extended standoff in the old's folks home which could be bad as they would have to evacuate it and a lot of them you can't have them walk out. Or shooting the person.
 
2013-07-28 01:03:23 AM  

Mambo Bananapatch: It's better to burn out than to fade away. Hope I go out in a blaze of tabloid headlines.


Planning on pulling a David Carradine, are you?

celebsview.info
 
2013-07-28 01:05:10 AM  

thatboyoverthere: What everyone seems to ignore is that the guy grabbed a butcher knife. At that point you can't just tackle the guy like with a shoehorn and/or a cane as it's a blade. Yes a tazer and a beanbag were the reasonable options. It's that or having an extended standoff in the old's folks home which could be bad as they would have to evacuate it and a lot of them you can't have them walk out. Or shooting the person.


My Sensei, ladies and gents, can we get a round of ... a few claps? Thank you madam!
 
2013-07-28 01:06:09 AM  

Joliebleu: RepoManTSM: I'd just like to get greenlit once. Feel like I have a better chance to be the subject of an article at this point.

That is kinda sad. I mean really. A greenlit gets you nothing in the long run. So what does it matter? Nothing.


It's its own reward.  Keep reaching for the stars, greenlight chaser man.
 
2013-07-28 01:06:33 AM  
I'm glad they included a stock photo of a taser with the article. Up until now I always thought it was a cross between a t-shirt and a blazer.
 
2013-07-28 01:07:26 AM  

BuckTurgidson: My Sensei, ladies and gents, can we get a round of ... a few claps? Thank you madam!


I honestly can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic.
 
2013-07-28 01:07:35 AM  

BuckTurgidson: thatboyoverthere: What everyone seems to ignore is that the guy grabbed a butcher knife. At that point you can't just tackle the guy like with a shoehorn and/or a cane as it's a blade. Yes a tazer and a beanbag were the reasonable options. It's that or having an extended standoff in the old's folks home which could be bad as they would have to evacuate it and a lot of them you can't have them walk out. Or shooting the person.

My Sensei, ladies and gents, can we get a round of ... a few claps? Thank you madam!


Really?  What kind of reflexes does a 95 year-old have?  I'd take a machete-wielding 95 year-old on any day with no body armor or weaponry.
 
2013-07-28 01:11:26 AM  

doyner: I'd take a machete-wielding 95 year-old on any day with no body armor or weaponry


Why weren't you there? You're the real monster here.
 
2013-07-28 01:13:55 AM  

hardinparamedic: doyner: I'd take a machete-wielding 95 year-old on any day with no body armor or weaponry

Why weren't you there? You're the real monster here.


Sorry.  I had to be at the gym in 16 minutes.
 
2013-07-28 01:14:39 AM  

doyner: BuckTurgidson: thatboyoverthere: What everyone seems to ignore is that the guy grabbed a butcher knife. At that point you can't just tackle the guy like with a shoehorn and/or a cane as it's a blade. Yes a tazer and a beanbag were the reasonable options. It's that or having an extended standoff in the old's folks home which could be bad as they would have to evacuate it and a lot of them you can't have them walk out. Or shooting the person.

My Sensei, ladies and gents, can we get a round of ... a few claps? Thank you madam!

Really?  What kind of reflexes does a 95 year-old have?  I'd take a machete-wielding 95 year-old on any day with no body armor or weaponry.


The real threat is that there would be a scuffle and now you're trying to get an angry 95 year old in handcuffs and there is a butcher knife who knows where. It's rather easy to cut a tendon or a major blood vesicle.
 
2013-07-28 01:15:35 AM  
Thank god he didn't have a walker or wheelchair! He probably would have had a true weapon platform then and posed a greater threat to the public!
 
2013-07-28 01:20:02 AM  

doyner: hardinparamedic: doyner: I'd take a machete-wielding 95 year-old on any day with no body armor or weaponry

Why weren't you there? You're the real monster here.

Sorry.  I had to be at the gym in 16 minutes.


LIAR! I know you went back in time to rape and murder a girl in 1990!

I'M ON TO YOU!

disinfo.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2013-07-28 01:20:06 AM  

RepoManTSM: Joliebleu: So our live long dream is to get on Fark?

I'd just like to get greenlit once. Feel like I have a better chance to be the subject of an article at this point.


I've been here nine years and I've got 15 greenlights to my name, which proves that the mod gods either have very good taste or very poor taste, I haven't yet decided which.  Either way, I feel your pain.
 
2013-07-28 01:23:50 AM  
I just want to say everytime I see a St. Louis article I'm proud to be from stl.

/moved to colorado
//happy to be here
///not going back
 
2013-07-28 01:26:00 AM  

thatboyoverthere: doyner: BuckTurgidson: thatboyoverthere: What everyone seems to ignore is that the guy grabbed a butcher knife. At that point you can't just tackle the guy like with a shoehorn and/or a cane as it's a blade. Yes a tazer and a beanbag were the reasonable options. It's that or having an extended standoff in the old's folks home which could be bad as they would have to evacuate it and a lot of them you can't have them walk out. Or shooting the person.

My Sensei, ladies and gents, can we get a round of ... a few claps? Thank you madam!

Really?  What kind of reflexes does a 95 year-old have?  I'd take a machete-wielding 95 year-old on any day with no body armor or weaponry.

The real threat is that there would be a scuffle and now you're trying to get an angry 95 year old in handcuffs and there is a butcher knife who knows where. It's rather easy to cut a tendon or a major blood vesicle.


Then approach your superior officer and request to be excused from the duties you signed up for, Offficer CandyPants.
 
2013-07-28 01:26:50 AM  
I talked to a 95 y/o guy yesterday, told him I hope to look as good at 65 as he does at 95.  He was spry enough to possibly survive a high velocity bean bag to the chest.  Most 95 year olds aren't, unfortunately.
 
2013-07-28 01:27:35 AM  

hardinparamedic: Something tells me you don't know as much as you think you know about the topic.


Like that matters in a Fark cop thread.
 
2013-07-28 01:31:06 AM  
weknowmemes.com
 
2013-07-28 01:34:11 AM  

Smirky the Wonder Chimp: RepoManTSM: Joliebleu: So our live long dream is to get on Fark?

I'd just like to get greenlit once. Feel like I have a better chance to be the subject of an article at this point.

I've been here nine years and I've got 15 greenlights to my name, which proves that the mod gods either have very good taste or very poor taste, I haven't yet decided which.  Either way, I feel your pain.


I've been here three years and have only one greenlight. One time they greenlit a second one but then redlit it again once I had already invited the neighbours over to celebrate. Awkward times followed.
 
2013-07-28 01:36:57 AM  
I suspect the state is going to be very interested in why a nursing home doesn't know how to deal with an uncooperative 95 year old.
 
2013-07-28 01:37:34 AM  

CruiserTwelve: hardinparamedic: Something tells me you don't know as much as you think you know about the topic.

Like that matters in a Fark cop thread.


Hi, CT!

I'm a long-time friend and supporter, I've always liked the cut of your jib .

What's your beef, my fellow citizen?
 
2013-07-28 01:41:16 AM  

Smirky the Wonder Chimp: RepoManTSM: Joliebleu: So our live long dream is to get on Fark?

I'd just like to get greenlit once. Feel like I have a better chance to be the subject of an article at this point.

I've been here nine years and I've got 15 greenlights to my name, which proves that the mod gods either have very good taste or very poor taste, I haven't yet decided which.  Either way, I feel your pain.


I've read Fark for over 9 years and been an active poster for 8+, and I only have 7 greenlights. I forgot about the last one I submitted that was greenlit, and it was got over 200 posts before I even saw it again. It's obviously a flaw in the system.
 
2013-07-28 01:43:44 AM  
The man deserves a memorial page on fark.  This is how i want to go.
 
2013-07-28 01:46:02 AM  
24.media.tumblr.com

Eat Hickory!
 
2013-07-28 01:50:53 AM  
Buzz off!

www.wrestlecrap.com
 
2013-07-28 01:51:40 AM  

hardinparamedic: However, at the point you grab a butcher knife and try to stab someone?


That's the point where someone is defending himself. It matters not if they were cops or not when someone who has committed no crime against anyone is being forced out of his home against his will.

What should have happened is when he did not want to go, they should have left him the fark alone. What's the worst that could happen to him if he doesn't go to the hospital? He could die. Well, what happened to him when he was hit with a taser? He died. Likely someone of his age it's a pretty high probability that he would die from the application of such force. What would have happened if they just waited until he agreed to go? Not a whole hell of a lot considering he was in good enough shape to put up significant resistance.
 
2013-07-28 01:59:48 AM  
"I once killed 20 Gerries while armed with just a pocket shoe horn and a picture of Betty Grable, so bring it on you pig bastards!"
I hope he went out yelling something along those lines. He was a Christopher Lee badass 95 year old for all we know.
 
2013-07-28 01:59:53 AM  
Answer me this. What legal authority do they have to force him to go to the hospital?  Perhaps the old guy knew he was close to dying and preferred to do that at home instead of bankrupting his family by going to a hospital.
 
2013-07-28 02:02:41 AM  

leadmetal: What should have happened is when he did not want to go, they should have left him the fark alone. What's the worst that could happen to him if he doesn't go to the hospital? He could die.


And then everyone involved would have been held professionally and civilly liable for the death. In addition, the transport was for an involuntary commitment in the first place from a senior living center. Not a nursing home, but similar to an assisted living community.

leadmetal: What would have happened if they just waited until he agreed to go?


Real life is not as black and white as you seem to have the idealized view of the world of. In addition, this article presents NO information. Had you actually spent five minutes on google, you would realize that he did not have a choice in the matter of going.

FTFAThe man was threatening facility staff and paramedics with a metal cane and a 2-foot metal shoehorn when officers arrived, police said.He refused to drop the items when commanded and instead grabbed a 12-inch butcher knife, police said.

Considering the case is still under investigation and he's pending an autopsy, I'd reserve your judgement. The fact he was wheeled out of there talking and responsive, but died two days later should make you step away from tunnel vision, and look at other causes.
 
2013-07-28 02:03:19 AM  

OgreMagi: The paramedics can not force someone to go to the hospital.  They were committing assault on the old dude.  He had every right to defend himself.


www.supermanofsteel.com
 
2013-07-28 02:05:55 AM  

hardinparamedic: FTFA:  The man was threatening facility staff and paramedics with a metal cane and a 2-foot metal shoehorn when officers arrived, police said.He refused to drop the items when commanded and instead grabbed a 12-inch butcher knife, police said.

Considering the case is still under investigation and he's pending an autopsy, I'd reserve your judgement. The fact he was wheeled out of there talking and responsive, but died two days later should make you step away from tunnel vision, and look at other causes.


Withholding judgment is the prudent thing to do, but I'm pretty sure trauma from being tazed and being hit by a bean bag round when you're 95 don't exactly help.
 
2013-07-28 02:07:02 AM  

redmid17: but I'm pretty sure trauma from being tazed and being hit by a bean bag round when you're 95 don't exactly help.


True. But all the articles I'm finding with google-fu seem to indicate that not all the information is being shared. Particularly why he was being transported for an involuntary commitment.
 
2013-07-28 02:11:09 AM  

Emposter: lewismarktwo: Meh, police have devolved into an armed gang of taxmen, but if some old coot pulls a knife on me I wouldn't try to wrestle with him ifin I had me a taser.

/he probably didn't pull a knife

What you SHOULD do is LEAVE.  They had no reason to do anythign at all to the old dude.  He didn't want to go to the hospital.  Not wanting to go to the hospital is not a crime.  Forcing him to defend himself, then tasering him because he does so is not allowed.  Leave him the fark alone.


Yeah, cause when Gramps doesn't know what day of the week it is, what year it is, or where he is, he can definitely make a decision on whether he needs to go to the hospital or not.
 
2013-07-28 02:12:21 AM  

hardinparamedic: redmid17: but I'm pretty sure trauma from being tazed and being hit by a bean bag round when you're 95 don't exactly help.

True. But all the articles I'm finding with google-fu seem to indicate that not all the information is being shared. Particularly why he was being transported for an involuntary commitment.


I mean given how he reacted, I just assumed it was something psychiatric related. The staff probably felt he was a danger to others, not just himself. I can't really think of much that would be immediately life threatening and let a 95 year old remain combative enough to resist a tazing. Then again I'm not a doctor.

Either way, it really doesn't look good.
 
2013-07-28 02:14:17 AM  

redmid17: I mean given how he reacted, I just assumed it was something psychiatric related. The staff probably felt he was a danger to others, not just himself. I can't really think of much that would be immediately life threatening and let a 95 year old remain combative enough to resist a tazing. Then again I'm not a doctor.

Either way, it really doesn't look good.


Given the fact that he's living in an assisted living facility, and not a nursing home, I'm going to speculate here and state he was being transported under a doctor's order and with his family's knowledge for acute delirium, especially given his behavior.

But I'll be interested to see the autopsy findings. I'm going to follow this case. I'll be especially interested in his urine/blood culture.
 
2013-07-28 02:16:31 AM  

OgreMagi: Under very limited conditions, "danger to self or others" being an example.  "For a checkup" is not on the list.


Actually, not under very limited conditions.

1) Minor with guardian/parent consent, even if 1 day away from 18.
2) Not of sound mind by court order or by legal documentation provided by POA.
3) Suspected acute delirium or psychiatric episode where patient is a danger to themselves or others.
4) Altered Mental Status where the patient is unable to give informed consent or refusal - especially if they cannot pass a Mini-Mental Status Exam.
5) Intoxication or Drug Ingestion which alters mentation.
6) In custody of Police Department.
 
2013-07-28 02:17:54 AM  

thatboyoverthere: What everyone seems to ignore is that the guy grabbed a butcher knife. At that point you can't just tackle the guy like with a shoehorn and/or a cane as it's a blade. Yes a tazer and a beanbag were the reasonable options. It's that or having an extended standoff in the old's folks home which could be bad as they would have to evacuate it and a lot of them you can't have them walk out. Or shooting the person.


They're pretty old. You could probably just wait for them to die.
 
2013-07-28 02:27:09 AM  
It's a mathematical relationship, the fewer the facts of the case, the greater the numbers of evolutionist cop haters.
 
2013-07-28 02:30:08 AM  

trappedspirit: It's a mathematical relationship, the fewer the facts of the case, the greater the numbers of evolutionist cop haters.


I don't want to be Captain Obvious here, but generally the reason why there are fewer facts available is because the cops don't release them. People don't respond well when it looks like people are deliberately hiding things from them, whether or not that it's true or fair.
 
2013-07-28 02:39:43 AM  
i hate cops just as much as the rest of you, but in this case it seems like a lose-lose situation.  how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?  honestly, this is exactly the kind of situation where a tazer is the right course of action.  of course it sounds like a terrible idea to tazer an old man, but if my options are "tazer an old man" or "get stabbed in the chest with a butcher knife" i'm gonna go with the tazer.  the old guy was dangerous and the cops had to do something to restrain him.  a sad story all around, but i don't think the cops are to blame for his death.
 
2013-07-28 02:46:42 AM  

enderthexenocide: i hate cops just as much as the rest of you, but in this case it seems like a lose-lose situation.  how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?  honestly, this is exactly the kind of situation where a tazer is the right course of action.  of course it sounds like a terrible idea to tazer an old man, but if my options are "tazer an old man" or "get stabbed in the chest with a butcher knife" i'm gonna go with the tazer.  the old guy was dangerous and the cops had to do something to restrain him.  a sad story all around, but i don't think the cops are to blame for his death.


I don't hate cops. Just the bad ones, which are the ones we always hear about. The majority of good cops don't make the news very often.
 
2013-07-28 02:47:32 AM  

Xanlexian: Cops killed (great)grandpa.  Way to instill trust in the police across a few generations at once.

God bless our courageous brave boys in blue.


OTOH it is pretty much the best way to confuse the hell out anyone who cares about you.

A: "I'm sorry for your loss... he lived a long life."
B: "Oh, he didn't die of old age, he was killed by the police."
A: "Wat"
 
2013-07-28 02:50:48 AM  
God forbid you deescalate the situation.

And by that I do not mean 'kill the old man threatening you'

Yeah yeah, those poor cops. They had no choice but to kill the guy. He was a threat against  A POLICE OFFICER SERVING IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THAT HAD A DUTY TO GO HOME TO HIS FAMILY blah blah blah

You are a shiatty cop if you can't subdue a person nearing 100 years of age without killing them. Period. If the guy was half out of his mind you have even more of a duty to resolve the issue without killing someone.

Lick them badges and boots a bit more guys.

Some people might think the cops were justified, but unless the guy was holding a locked and loaded firearm they over reacted and should be held accountable.

/can someone tell me why I should hold any respect for an officer that doesn't place any personal sacrifice or risk in the line of duty? Isn't that what we pay them for? Isn't that why they are supposed to garner our respect?

enderthexenocide: . how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?


Very carefully. That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.
 
2013-07-28 02:51:39 AM  

thatboyoverthere: What everyone seems to ignore is that the guy grabbed a butcher knife. At that point you can't just tackle the guy like with a shoehorn and/or a cane as it's a blade. Yes a tazer and a beanbag were the reasonable options. It's that or having an extended standoff in the old's folks home which could be bad as they would have to evacuate it and a lot of them you can't have them walk out. Or shooting the person.


Is it unreasonable to simply ask our LEOs to tell Gramps that he can drop the knife or have his head caved in by a billy club? If he won't, seems like a good knock to the melon would have gotten grandpa's attention and he'd have had a shot at making 96. Don't they teach stickhandling in cop school?

/ Submitter I think this is my HOTY.
 
2013-07-28 02:57:07 AM  
Old person CSB: My great-grandfather, who smoked all his life, was 94 when he was in hospital for pneumonia. The first day he was there, he (a frail, small man) was restrained to his bed because he wanted a cigarette and staff wouldn't let him go out to smoke. He was thrashing about and screaming at them for a cig in four languages - English, Spanish, German, and French. This went on for three days. He died a week later. Most people in my family think that had he been able to have a damn smoke, he'd still be with us today.

/started at age 13
//Camel non-filters
///RIP, Grandpa Cecil
 
2013-07-28 02:59:13 AM  

Smock Pot: Old person CSB: My great-grandfather, who smoked all his life, was 94 when he was in hospital for pneumonia. The first day he was there, he (a frail, small man) was restrained to his bed because he wanted a cigarette and staff wouldn't let him go out to smoke. He was thrashing about and screaming at them for a cig in four languages - English, Spanish, German, and French. This went on for three days. He died a week later. Most people in my family think that had he been able to have a damn smoke, he'd still be with us today.

/started at age 13
//Camel non-filters
///RIP, Grandpa Cecil


Yeah but cigarettes can kill you
 
2013-07-28 02:59:52 AM  
lesson learned: when you get shuffled off to an assisted living center, pack and hide heat.
 
2013-07-28 03:14:18 AM  
farking assholes
No, he ca't be forced to go to the hospital if he doesn't want to. He has every right to refuse. Sure, you can try talking him in to it, and if you do it correctly, ina non-confrontational way, you have an excellent chance of compliance.
"You're coming with us" and calling the cops in is not the way to do it. I farking hate cowboy farking medics with no farking skills.
 
2013-07-28 03:15:30 AM  

MurphyMurphy: God forbid you deescalate the situation.

And by that I do not mean 'kill the old man threatening you'

Yeah yeah, those poor cops. They had no choice but to kill the guy. He was a threat against  A POLICE OFFICER SERVING IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THAT HAD A DUTY TO GO HOME TO HIS FAMILY blah blah blah

You are a shiatty cop if you can't subdue a person nearing 100 years of age without killing them. Period. If the guy was half out of his mind you have even more of a duty to resolve the issue without killing someone.

Lick them badges and boots a bit more guys.

Some people might think the cops were justified, but unless the guy was holding a locked and loaded firearm they over reacted and should be held accountable.

/can someone tell me why I should hold any respect for an officer that doesn't place any personal sacrifice or risk in the line of duty? Isn't that what we pay them for? Isn't that why they are supposed to garner our respect?

enderthexenocide: . how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?

Very carefully. That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.


So the fact that the old man was in the hospital, awake and talking, for two days after the incident before dying doesn't even make you THINK of backing off the accusation that the cops killed him? You know, 95-year olds can kind of go at any time, and a sudden change in mental status isn't a good sign as far as longevity goes. It's not like they zapped him and he went into cardiac arrest right there. Perhaps we should wait for stuff like investigations and autopsy results before we accuse the cops of killing him.

I don't love cops (or hate them, really) but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that the tasing had anything to do with the death, and I'm not going to criticize a cop for tasing a man waving a butcher knife around. That's exactly what the taser was made for; a less lethal alternative to using a firearm. Cops using a taser as a compliance device ("Get up or I'll tase you!") makes me angry, cops tasing a crazy man with a weapon makes me glad they didn't have to shoot him.
 
2013-07-28 03:22:59 AM  

cretinbob: farking assholes
No, he ca't be forced to go to the hospital if he doesn't want to. He has every right to refuse. Sure, you can try talking him in to it, and if you do it correctly, ina non-confrontational way, you have an excellent chance of compliance.
"You're coming with us" and calling the cops in is not the way to do it. I farking hate cowboy farking medics with no farking skills.


He didn't have "every right" to refuse. He was in a long-term assisted living facility that had control over his medical care. They said he was going, so he was going.

Why is it hard to imagine that a 95-year old has dementia and does not have the capacity to refuse?
 
2013-07-28 03:24:33 AM  

MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.


You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion. These officers used "non-lethal" force against the subject in the form of a TASER, which failed to subdue the old man. The LEOs then escalated to another non-lethal take-down method, the beanbag round. That caused the old man to drop the knife and he was taken into custody, conscious and communicating. He was taken to the hospital where he died...almost six hours later.

The LEOs used "this shiat called training" and, though unlikely, it is possible that the old man died later from being 95 years old. We won't know until the autopsy is complete.

The article linked is incomplete and stupid, really. Read the original article for more of a whole-story article.
 
2013-07-28 03:39:46 AM  

lizyrd: So the fact that the old man was in the hospital, awake and talking, for two days after the incident before dying


eldritch2k4: He was taken to the hospital where he died...almost six hours later.


Which is it?

eldritch2k4: The LEOs used "this shiat called training"


I'd say they "used this training called shiat" personally.

lizyrd: don't love cops (or hate them, really) but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that the tasing had anything to do with the death, and I'm not going to criticize a cop for tasing a man waving a butcher knife around. That's exactly what the taser was made for; a less lethal alternative to using a firearm.


first, "less lethal" is complete bullshiat if in fact it ends up killing someone.

I have no problem conceding that perhaps this guy just magically happened to die after the confrontation, because he was in fact old. What my real problem is, is that people (like you) seem to see nothing wrong with a cop using a taser and then a beanbag round on a person almost 100 years of age.

If you can't disarm a 95 year old man wielding a knife without deploying high tech "less than lethal" *cough bullshiat cough* technologies, you have no business being a cop.

If you can't align with that, then we will have to agree to disagree.

/have any of you seen actually seen a 95 year old man?

//my uncle louis is that old, he fought nazi's and still rides a horse. Tough old coot, but he's not going to kill anyone with a knife unless they are asleep.
 
2013-07-28 03:57:43 AM  

MurphyMurphy: lizyrd: So the fact that the old man was in the hospital, awake and talking, for two days after the incident before dying

eldritch2k4: He was taken to the hospital where he died...almost six hours later.

Which is it?

eldritch2k4: The LEOs used "this shiat called training"

I'd say they "used this training called shiat" personally.

lizyrd: don't love cops (or hate them, really) but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that the tasing had anything to do with the death, and I'm not going to criticize a cop for tasing a man waving a butcher knife around. That's exactly what the taser was made for; a less lethal alternative to using a firearm.

first, "less lethal" is complete bullshiat if in fact it ends up killing someone.

I have no problem conceding that perhaps this guy just magically happened to die after the confrontation, because he was in fact old. What my real problem is, is that people (like you) seem to see nothing wrong with a cop using a taser and then a beanbag round on a person almost 100 years of age.

If you can't disarm a 95 year old man wielding a knife without deploying high tech "less than lethal" *cough bullshiat cough* technologies, you have no business being a cop.

If you can't align with that, then we will have to agree to disagree.

/have any of you seen actually seen a 95 year old man?

//my uncle louis is that old, he fought nazi's and still rides a horse. Tough old coot, but he's not going to kill anyone with a knife unless they are asleep.


Per the article linked in my previous statement, the LEOs were called at 8:42PM Friday evening and he died around 2:30 AM Saturday morning.

Additionally, your Uncle Louis and most other people would probably go down after a TASER strike. This guy didn't, hence the beanbag round. Anyone who can take a TASER strike and not go down is fully capable of killing a person with a 12" knife. I do have a problem with TASERing or beanbagging a 95 year old man who is barely able to stand with a walker. However, that's not what happened here. The LEOs assessed and responded to a threat and did not respond with enough force, initially. Again, the 95 year old man stayed on his feet and combative after a TASER strike. Even if we concede that a TASER should not have been the initial go to application of force, the result (95 year old man not going to the floor) justified that use of force and more.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE (don't care if it is a 2569 year old cookie baking midget), who can withstand a TASER strike is not someone I want to get into hand to hand combat with. Basically, I don't care how old a person is, a TASER can be a justified application of force depending on the situation.
 
2013-07-28 04:16:11 AM  

eldritch2k4: Additionally, your Uncle Louis and most other people would probably go down after a TASER strike. This guy didn't, hence the beanbag round. Anyone who can take a TASER strike and not go down is fully capable of killing a person with a 12" knife. I do have a problem with TASERing or beanbagging a 95 year old man who is barely able to stand with a walker. However, that's not what happened here. The LEOs assessed and responded to a threat and did not respond with enough force, initially. Again, the 95 year old man stayed on his feet and combative after a TASER strike. Even if we concede that a TASER should not have been the initial go to application of force, the result (95 year old man not going to the floor) justified that use of force and more.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE (don't care if it is a 2569 year old cookie baking midget), who can withstand a TASER strike is not someone I want to get into hand to hand combat with. Basically, I don't care how old a person is, a TASER can be a justified application of force depending on the situation.


It's amazing that someone can simultaneously presume

-that an old person didn't die after receiving a taser and a beanbag round but instead just coincidentally happened to die of old age

and

-cops, instead of having used too much force and maybe stretching a few details afterwards to cover their asses, had apparently stumbled upon the most herculean and resilient 95 year old man on the planet

/like I said, I don't think you've actually seen many people that are 95 years of age
 
2013-07-28 04:19:29 AM  

eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: lizyrd: So the fact that the old man was in the hospital, awake and talking, for two days after the incident before dying

eldritch2k4: He was taken to the hospital where he died...almost six hours later.

Which is it?

eldritch2k4: The LEOs used "this shiat called training"

I'd say they "used this training called shiat" personally.

lizyrd: don't love cops (or hate them, really) but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that the tasing had anything to do with the death, and I'm not going to criticize a cop for tasing a man waving a butcher knife around. That's exactly what the taser was made for; a less lethal alternative to using a firearm.

first, "less lethal" is complete bullshiat if in fact it ends up killing someone.

I have no problem conceding that perhaps this guy just magically happened to die after the confrontation, because he was in fact old. What my real problem is, is that people (like you) seem to see nothing wrong with a cop using a taser and then a beanbag round on a person almost 100 years of age.

If you can't disarm a 95 year old man wielding a knife without deploying high tech "less than lethal" *cough bullshiat cough* technologies, you have no business being a cop.

If you can't align with that, then we will have to agree to disagree.

/have any of you seen actually seen a 95 year old man?

//my uncle louis is that old, he fought nazi's and still rides a horse. Tough old coot, but he's not going to kill anyone with a knife unless they are asleep.

Per the article linked in my previous statement, the LEOs were called at 8:42PM Friday evening and he died around 2:30 AM Saturday morning.

Additionally, your Uncle Louis and most other people would probably go down after a TASER strike. This guy didn't, hence the beanbag round. Anyone who can take a TASER strike and not go down is fully capable of killing a person with a 12" knife. I do have a problem with TASERing or beanbagging a 95 year old man who is barely able to stand with ...


Tasers can be misapplied. There's no guarantee the old guy actually received the "taze"
 
2013-07-28 04:30:25 AM  

MurphyMurphy: It's amazing that someone can simultaneously presume

-that an old person didn't die after receiving a taser and a beanbag round but instead just coincidentally happened to die of old age

and

-cops, instead of having used too much force and maybe stretching a few details afterwards to cover their asses, had apparently stumbled upon the most herculean and resilient 95 year old man on the planet

/like I said, I don't think you've actually seen many people that are 95 years of age


I bolded, underlined and italicized the portion of my original statement where I noted that it was extremely unlikely that he died of anything other than complication from the application of force. I said it was possible, what with the ride in the ambulance being the reason for all the fighting. I also tend to believe statements that have EMTs, RNs and other witnesses on hand. Had this been an old man in an alley with only the LEOs' around to tell the story afterward, I would be calling bullshiat on their statements faster than you. And, after all of that, I said that we won't know what killed him until the autopsy report is released.

I've seen plenty of people who are 95 years old, but I've seen enough people to know that outliers exist. I've seen 80+ year old body builders and all manner of other outliers. What I have is the ability to recognize that just because most people can't doesn't mean no one can.

redmid17: Tasers can be misapplied. There's no guarantee the old guy actually received the "taze"


True, but in a situation where a man is waving a knife and just took a TASER, are you going to take the time to administer the exam to determine if he felt the TASER or are you going to continue attempting to stop him from waving the knife around?
 
2013-07-28 04:39:57 AM  

eldritch2k4: redmid17: Tasers can be misapplied. There's no guarantee the old guy actually received the "taze"

True, but in a situation where a man is waving a knife and just took a TASER, are you going to take the time to administer the exam to determine if he felt the TASER or are you going to continue attempting to stop him from waving the knife around?


Frankly I would have taken his cane and shoehorn before he had a chance to pick up the knife, but that is just me and hindsight talking. To be honest, no matter what the situation is, it's extremely embarrassing that cops had to resort to a taser and beanbag round to subdue a 95 year old man. It's even more sad that he eventually died, and it was likely from the trauma that occurred from the aforementioned conflict.
 
2013-07-28 04:42:20 AM  
You kick the old guy or trip him and he goes down. Then you pick up the knife or shoehorn and you take him to the hospital with hopefully no broken bones. I think I could pull that off, why can't this cop?
 
2013-07-28 04:58:25 AM  
If you can't figure out how to subdue a 95 year old man without using a taser, you're a huge pussy and shouldn't be a cop.

Besides which, he could simply have been outsmarted.  Say, "ok, you win, we aren't taking you to the hospital.  Now, I have to fill out such and such a form and have you sign it, blah blah blah", and eventually he lets go of the knife.
 
2013-07-28 05:19:44 AM  

you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people


Hmmm, 95 y/o starts off by attacking paramedics with a knife.  Let's just say A) the ambulance might just be indicative of a urgent health issue and B) attacking paramedics might just mean his rational thought elevator doesn't reach all the floors.

/He was conscious and talking after Taser subdued him.  It was not cause of death or even contributory.
//Let's go out on a limb and say maybe he died because of the thing they called the ambulance,
///Tasers were never meant to be used instead of shooting people.  They are usually the same level of force as hands-on or baton or pepper spray or other less-than-lethal methods.  It's true that shootings have gone done but not nearly as much as pepper spray and baton use.  Shootings go down because the taser allows the officer to apply force at a distance whereas a close proximity method like baton or hands-on  can escalate to lethal force very quickly or may be impractical..   Injuries and deaths related to taking people into custody are also way down
 
2013-07-28 05:25:18 AM  

tbeatty: you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people

Hmmm, 95 y/o starts off by attacking paramedics with a knife.  Let's just say A) the ambulance might just be indicative of a urgent health issue and B) attacking paramedics might just mean his rational thought elevator doesn't reach all the floors.

/He was conscious and talking after Taser subdued him.  It was not cause of death or even contributory.
//Let's go out on a limb and say maybe he died because of the thing they called the ambulance,
///Tasers were never meant to be used instead of shooting people.  They are usually the same level of force as hands-on or baton or pepper spray or other less-than-lethal methods.  It's true that shootings have gone done but not nearly as much as pepper spray and baton use.  Shootings go down because the taser allows the officer to apply force at a distance whereas a close proximity method like baton or hands-on  can escalate to lethal force very quickly or may be impractical..   Injuries and deaths related to taking people into custody are also way down


It helps if you actually read the article and/or know anything about the situation.
 
2013-07-28 05:28:18 AM  
He was 95. It would be easy to just walk up and casually disarm him.
 
2013-07-28 05:35:12 AM  
I saw an 86 year old guy in the ER with a knife stuck in his rib over his heart. His 87 year old wife found him in bed with a younger, 66 year old, woman and did her damnedest to kill the old bastard but she hit the rib so hard she couldn't pull out the knife for a second stab. The old guy, who was brought in completely naked, dismissed the event as a misunderstanding and refused to press charges. I'm not sure how you can misunderstand 2 people being naked in bed together but he'd made up his mind and the cops couldn't dissuade him.
 
2013-07-28 05:54:06 AM  

hardinparamedic: However, at the point you grab a butcher knife and try to stab someone? Yeah. You stop being grandpa.


Yeah, you're a guy who doesn't want to be taken somewhere against his will.
 
2013-07-28 05:55:49 AM  
Don't taze me, sonny!
 
2013-07-28 06:16:17 AM  

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Neighborhood Watch: The linked 'article' says that:  The Chicago Sun-Times reports the man became upset after an ambulance crew in Park Forest tried to take him to a medical facility.


Well for goodness sakes, if he doesn't want to go then he doesn't want to go.  If your patient is uncooperative or refuses treatment, you can't force them into an ambulance.  That's kidnapping.

Just leave, if that's what he wants.

I was wondering about that too so I went searching for more info.

Apparently he was a resident at a nursing home (or may have been more like assisted living), and the facility staff had called the ambulance to have him taken for treatment "involuntarily", and it says he was also threatening facility staff with the cane and (2 foot metal) shoehorn.  It's not clear from the article if the ambulance was called to take him because he was being combative, or if he became combative because of the ambulance (it doesn't say what they were having him taken for treatment of).
  However, I can see where the police couldn't just leave him there if he was threatening facility staff and he could have been a threat to other residents

"According to an e-mailed press release from Park Forest police, officers were sent to 101 Main Street in Park Forest about 8:42 p.m. to help a private ambulance company with a "combative" resident of the home there. The Victory Centre of Park Forest, a supportive living community for adults 65 and older according to its website, is at that address.
 The resident of the faculty was being "involuntarily" committed for medical treatment by staff at the Victory Centre, the release said."


Well, this will certainly teach the rest of the residents a lesson. If they can remember it.

I just can't believe there was no one that said FFS and took the old guy's 'weapons' away. How does a 95 yo nursing home resident acquire a butcher knife anyway? Did it come baked in a cake his girlfriend brought to the home?
 
2013-07-28 07:02:46 AM  
hardinparamedic:  I'll be especially interested in his urine/blood culture.

Anything to beat off to, huh? Pervert!
 
2013-07-28 07:30:21 AM  

redmid17: tbeatty: you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people

Hmmm, 95 y/o starts off by attacking paramedics with a knife.  Let's just say A) the ambulance might just be indicative of a urgent health issue and B) attacking paramedics might just mean his rational thought elevator doesn't reach all the floors.

/He was conscious and talking after Taser subdued him.  It was not cause of death or even contributory.
//Let's go out on a limb and say maybe he died because of the thing they called the ambulance,
///Tasers were never meant to be used instead of shooting people.  They are usually the same level of force as hands-on or baton or pepper spray or other less-than-lethal methods.  It's true that shootings have gone done but not nearly as much as pepper spray and baton use.  Shootings go down because the taser allows the officer to apply force at a distance whereas a close proximity method like baton or hands-on  can escalate to lethal force very quickly or may be impractical..   Injuries and deaths related to taking people into custody are also way down

It helps if you actually read the article and/or know anything about the situation.


I know.  He should have done that.  Now try reading more than the 1st paragraph.  Actually you can skip the first paragraph in this article.and go to the narrative in chronological order starting with the second paragraph.
 
2013-07-28 07:38:52 AM  
I am guessing senile agitation, with a shoe horn.
 
2013-07-28 07:43:37 AM  

OscarTamerz: I saw an 86 year old guy in the ER with a knife stuck in his rib over his heart. His 87 year old wife found him in bed with a younger, 66 year old, woman and did her damnedest to kill the old bastard but she hit the rib so hard she couldn't pull out the knife for a second stab. The old guy, who was brought in completely naked, dismissed the event as a misunderstanding and refused to press charges. I'm not sure how you can misunderstand 2 people being naked in bed together but he'd made up his mind and the cops couldn't dissuade him.


And give his wife a second chance of getting it right?  That is why some areas have changed DV laws to take assailants to jail without victim cooperation.  Also, I am surprised they didn't haul him off to jail for getting with such a young girl, she's young enough to be his daughter.  Now she'll grow up all damaged and emotionally confused.
 
2013-07-28 07:47:22 AM  
Not so sure about that headline. Fark is the reason I never want to be famous or make headlines in any way like ever
 
2013-07-28 08:36:39 AM  

you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people


Do you have the idea that there's a certain age in which attacking people with butcher knives isn't a life threatening situation?

Without tazers, the officer would have to get within striking distance of the butcher knife, or shoot him dead.

Granted, the taser shot him dead, but that's what they're for. A step between a billy club and a 9 mm.

Now, if it comes out that the geezer was in his wheelchair, flinging the knife around for a show, then it is indeed over-reacting to a non-threat.
 
2013-07-28 08:39:49 AM  
was he standing his ground though?

depends.
 
2013-07-28 08:50:30 AM  
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-28 08:59:29 AM  
In frail, elderly, people, an infection or an electrolyte imbalance can be devastating mentally.  Most of the time when an elderly person goes batshiat, it's an infection.  If he were crazy all the time, he wouldn't be allowed shoe horns, canes and butcher knives in his room.  The facility or the ambulance crew calling the cops is super stupid and someone should notify the state protective agency.  Backing off, letting him calm down while preparing whatever PRN the old guy has ordered to settle him down (haldol, ativan)  would be the prudent course.  A little patience and he would still be alive.  It was their job to keep him safe, and they failed.
 
2013-07-28 09:10:28 AM  

kinkkerbelle: In frail, elderly, people, an infection or an electrolyte imbalance can be devastating mentally.  Most of the time when an elderly person goes batshiat, it's an infection.  If he were crazy all the time, he wouldn't be allowed shoe horns, canes and butcher knives in his room.  The facility or the ambulance crew calling the cops is super stupid and someone should notify the state protective agency.  Backing off, letting him calm down while preparing whatever PRN the old guy has ordered to settle him down (haldol, ativan)  would be the prudent course.  A little patience and he would still be alive.  It was their job to keep him safe, and they failed.




1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-28 09:35:15 AM  

enderthexenocide: i hate cops just as much as the rest of you, but in this case it seems like a lose-lose situation.  how exactly is a cop (or anyone else) supposed to handle a crazy old man swinging a butcher knife around?  honestly, this is exactly the kind of situation where a tazer is the right course of action.  of course it sounds like a terrible idea to tazer an old man, but if my options are "tazer an old man" or "get stabbed in the chest with a butcher knife" i'm gonna go with the tazer.  the old guy was dangerous and the cops had to do something to restrain him.  a sad story all around, but i don't think the cops are to blame for his death.


I was in LE decades ago when the level of force depended on the circumstance. This was so long ago a cop could make judgement calls. My basic gear was a handgun, night stick, cuffs and a radio. I don't know how many times I went on calls like the one in the article. I would have pretty much classified this as a domestic. You've got the staff on one side of the argument and the old man on the other in a place where they all live together. Step one is to get the staff and everyone else around out of earshot. People tend to talk crap in these kind of calls - just like the passenger on a traffic stop always wants their two cents. I don't need that. Step two is make sure there isn't any other threat around, other than the visible ones. If you aren't sure, move the discussion to a place that is clear. In my day we couldn't pull a gun on a defensive knife, that was night stick level. A cane and a shoe horn? Lol. Even if the old guy is standing there waving a knife around - you just stand back and talk to the guy. I'll kind big and tall, so if I can sit someplace and just talk to people about things that have nothing to do about the incident to get them calmed down, it works for me. If a half hour of talking about his old career didn't calm him, I'd make him lunge at me, move out of the way, and down he would go.

The point is there was a reason the guy felt threatened enough to feel he needed to drop the shoe horn and cane and resort to the knife. The cops need to look back on that moment and see where they made a mistake during this time. I think cops having tasers is an easy way to get out of training for the job. Police work is hard, you have to learn how to do the job with the least amount of paperwork. It's done the right way every day, all day long. When it isn't - Fark.
 
2013-07-28 09:42:34 AM  
Since everyone is pulling scenario's of what happened out of their ass, here's mine:

The person who dispenses the pills at the nursing home went on vacation. Since Warna is feisty enough to fight with the police, he would have been feisty enough so that the place where he lived would have had him SEVERELY tranked, to make him easier to deal with. So the replacement guy comes in and says "whoa, this guy is tranked into oblivion" and cuts way back on the dosage. Grandpappy Warna goes apecrap and the cops are called. They shoot him with a taser and it has little effect because Warna is used to being tranked. Then they shoot him with a beanbag and it kills him.
 
2013-07-28 09:51:55 AM  

varmitydog: Since everyone is pulling scenario's of what happened out of their ass, here's mine:

The person who dispenses the pills at the nursing home went on vacation. Since Warna is feisty enough to fight with the police, he would have been feisty enough so that the place where he lived would have had him SEVERELY tranked, to make him easier to deal with. So the replacement guy comes in and says "whoa, this guy is tranked into oblivion" and cuts way back on the dosage. Grandpappy Warna goes apecrap and the cops are called. They shoot him with a taser and it has little effect because Warna is used to being tranked. Then they shoot him with a beanbag and it kills him.


In that case you call for backup, dog pile him, and the problem is over in under a minute. Everyone goes home alive.
 
2013-07-28 09:54:18 AM  
Murdering senior citizens with "non-lethal" weapons while they're having Anzio flashbacks is no way to go through life, officer.
 
2013-07-28 10:03:57 AM  

Johnny_Canuck: Tasering a 95 year old? Pussies.


Agreed. They should've shot him in self-defense. That's the American way.
 
2013-07-28 10:07:29 AM  

OgreMagi: Answer me this. What legal authority do they have to force him to go to the hospital?  Perhaps the old guy knew he was close to dying and preferred to do that at home instead of bankrupting his family by going to a hospital.


Obviously I don't know what was going on in his head, but it could have been good old-fashioned old coot cantankerousness.

My great-grandmother was 90+ and being cared for in my grandparents home when she came down with a fever.  She was ill and being very difficult (which was par for the course...no dementia she was just an evil old woman) and had some mobility issues so they called an ambulance.  The got her outside, but when the ambulance approached and my grandmother went to brief the paramedics, the old coot got into my grandfather's car and refused to get out.  Paramedics couldn't talk her out and eventually called the police (she needed medical treatment and was in my grandparent's care). As soon as the police got there she became quite compliant and got out of the car and into the ambulance, having apparently enjoyed the game of making life difficult and embarrassing for my grandparents and all-around wasting the time of people who had more important things to do.

/end CSB
 
2013-07-28 10:20:38 AM  
What I don't get is the persistent need for law enforcement to contribute to escalation in scenarios like this.   What would've happened if they simply walked away and left this guy alone?   Back off and let him calm down a little maybe...not everything has to follow "escalation of force."
 
2013-07-28 10:21:45 AM  

pedrop357: Yeah, you're a guy who doesn't want to be taken somewhere against his will.


Sometimes you don't have a choice legally. But something tells me you know this.
 
2013-07-28 10:23:14 AM  

Ficoce: In that case you call for backup, dog pile him, and the problem is over in under a minute. Everyone goes home alive.


You don't "dogpile" anyone. If you're going to wrestle with a psych patient, you do a four extremity take down using four+ people. That doesn't happen when someone is swinging a butcher knife around trying to cut people.

/christ. Next you know they'll be asking why didn't they just  tranquilize him like they see on the TV movies.
 
2013-07-28 10:24:28 AM  
No way the cops could have talked to a 95 year old man with a knife to calm him down.  95 year old men can move at nearly 2 miles an hour.
 
2013-07-28 10:27:51 AM  
When 95 years old YOU become, be still conscious after taking a taser and beanbag rounds you will not!
 
2013-07-28 10:33:20 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: No way the cops could have talked to a 95 year old man with a knife to calm him down.


Your assumption is that the man was in a state that he could have been talked down to begin with.
 
2013-07-28 10:33:51 AM  

hardinparamedic: Ficoce: In that case you call for backup, dog pile him, and the problem is over in under a minute. Everyone goes home alive.

You don't "dogpile" anyone. If you're going to wrestle with a psych patient, you do a four extremity take down using four+ people. That doesn't happen when someone is swinging a butcher knife around trying to cut people.

/christ. Next you know they'll be asking why didn't they just  tranquilize him like they see on the TV movies.


Lol, isn't that what I said? Sometimes four isn't enough with mental cases with knives. With a personality type that gets pissed off just thinking about this kind of thing, maybe a "people person" career isn't for you.
 
2013-07-28 10:38:45 AM  

Ficoce: With a personality type that gets pissed off just thinking about this kind of thing, maybe a "people person" career isn't for you.


"Pissed"?

I get "pissed" far less than you assume, correcting your misconceptions about handling violent people is not "being pissed".  And, just so you know, I've never had one complaint about my attitude or personality from a patient or family. So since you know nothing about me, how about you stick to the situation at hand rather than making thinly veiled character insults?

This personwas being transported on an involuntary hold from an assisted living facility where he was originally - apparantly - livingindependently.

Ficoce: Sometimes four isn't enough with mental cases with knives.


Uh, no. At the point someone is swinging a knife around, they stop being a patient, and start being a life threat. There IS a line you cross there.
 
2013-07-28 10:55:14 AM  
Wonder if they aimed for the pacemaker?
 
2013-07-28 11:17:43 AM  

hardinparamedic: Ficoce: With a personality type that gets pissed off just thinking about this kind of thing, maybe a "people person" career isn't for you.

"Pissed"?

I get "pissed" far less than you assume, correcting your misconceptions about handling violent people is not "being pissed".  And, just so you know, I've never had one complaint about my attitude or personality from a patient or family. So since you know nothing about me, how about you stick to the situation at hand rather than making thinly veiled character insults?

This personwas being transported on an involuntary hold from an assisted living facility where he was originally - apparantly - livingindependently.

Ficoce: Sometimes four isn't enough with mental cases with knives.

Uh, no. At the point someone is swinging a knife around, they stop being a patient, and start being a life threat. There IS a line you cross there.


I'm sorry, I wasn't looking at it from your point of view. Yes, as a paramedic you need to get the hell out of the way and let the police handle the 95 year old cane waving men at assisted living facilities. Some people don't want your help and sometimes it's best to let the people that don't care handle it - it's too bad when tazers are the easy way out. Lots of other options.
 
2013-07-28 11:35:22 AM  

hardinparamedic: Ficoce: With a personality type that gets pissed off just thinking about this kind of thing, maybe a "people person" career isn't for you.

"Pissed"?

I get "pissed" far less than you assume, correcting your misconceptions about handling violent people is not "being pissed".  And, just so you know, I've never had one complaint about my attitude or personality from a patient or family. So since you know nothing about me, how about you stick to the situation at hand rather than making thinly veiled character insults?

This personwas being transported on an involuntary hold from an assisted living facility where he was originally - apparantly - livingindependently.

Ficoce: Sometimes four isn't enough with mental cases with knives.

Uh, no. At the point someone is swinging a knife around, they stop being a patient, and start being a life threat. There IS a line you cross there.


You may be right about all the procedure stuff you spew about but the bottom line is if this was handled better the old man would still be alive.

In my opinion, your still a piece of shiat for tasering and beaning a 95 year old man.

You always come in to these threads spewing "but procedure allows cops to do this" bullshiat and miss the entire point.
 
2013-07-28 11:40:22 AM  

Lego_Addict: In my opinion, your still a piece of shiat for tasering and beaning a 95 year old man.

You always come in to these threads spewing "but procedure allows cops to do this" bullshiat and miss the entire point.


You seem to miss the point yourself. He was threatening to kill someone with a knife. No one is under any obligation to get stabbed by someone, let alone by someone who is not in his right mind and more than likely CANNOT be reasoned with.

Maybe they should have just gotten knifed in the chest while wrestling with him. I'm sure that's in their job description SOMEWHERE. Or shot him? You know, at least if they had shot him, we'd know he died because of them. Not have the question of why he died two days later after being wheeled out while conscious and talking.

Ficoce: I'm sorry, I wasn't looking at it from your point of view. Yes, as a paramedic you need to get the hell out of the way and let the police handle the 95 year old cane waving men at assisted living facilities. Some people don't want your help and sometimes it's best to let the people that don't care handle it - it's too bad when tazers are the easy way out. Lots of other options.


He wasn't waving a cane around. He was waving a 12-inch long knife around.

What other options were there, in the case of someone who was being involuntarily transported (I.e. He does not have the right or choice to refus) and who is not in their right mind and is armed with a knife? Again, should they have just shot him and been done with it?

Leaving him alone was not an option.
 
2013-07-28 11:51:39 AM  

Lego_Addict: but the bottom line is if this was handled better the old man would still be alive.


You know nothing about what was going on with him. At all. He had a sudden and acute mental status change far beyond what was normal for him PRIOR to the altercation, and had to be transferred from the hospital he was taken to to a tertiary care facility where he died 5 hours later after losing consciousness at the hospital.

Something else was going on that had NOTHING to do with the fact he got stabby and got beaned for it.
 
2013-07-28 12:47:00 PM  
Puncing out at 95 in a violent confrontation with the cops?  Dying......LIKE A BOSS.
 
2013-07-28 01:01:20 PM  

Ficoce: I was in LE decades ago when the level of force depended on the circumstance. This was so long ago a cop could make judgement calls. My basic gear was a handgun, night stick, cuffs and a radio. I don't know how many times I went on calls like the one in the article. I would have pretty much classified this as a domestic. You've got the staff on one side of the argument and the old man on the other in a place where they all live together. Step one is to get the staff and everyone else around out of earshot. People tend to talk crap in these kind of calls - just like the passenger on a traffic stop always wants their two cents. I don't need that. Step two is make sure there isn't any other threat around, other than the visible ones. If you aren't sure, move the discussion to a place that is clear. In my day we couldn't pull a gun on a defensive knife, that was night stick level. A cane and a shoe horn? Lol. Even if the old guy is standing there waving a knife around - you just stand back and talk to the guy. I'll kind big and tall, so if I can sit someplace and just talk to people about things that have nothing to do about the incident to get them calmed down, it works for me. If a half hour of talking about his old career didn't calm him, I'd make him lunge at me, move out of the way, and down he would go.

The point is there was a reason the guy felt threatened enough to feel he needed to drop the shoe horn and cane and resort to the knife.


Yeah, the cops are on the way.
 
2013-07-28 01:10:07 PM  

hardinparamedic: Lego_Addict: but the bottom line is if this was handled better the old man would still be alive.

You know nothing about what was going on with him. At all. He had a sudden and acute mental status change far beyond what was normal for him PRIOR to the altercation, and had to be transferred from the hospital he was taken to to a tertiary care facility where he died 5 hours later after losing consciousness at the hospital.

Something else was going on that had NOTHING to do with the fact he got stabby and got beaned for it.


You know nothing John Snow!

Seriously, that article helps prove my point as much as it does your point.

Your reasoning is real neat and all but fact still remains tasering and beaning a 95 year old man who has had an acute change in mental status is a dumb move. I mean by human standards, not what ever standards you seem to adhere to.

If I was first on scene, I would have probably picked up a cane and dueled him. Swashbuckle style. Knocked any knife out of his hand. I'd probably be invited back for the matinee.
 
2013-07-28 01:28:08 PM  

Lego_Addict: Your reasoning is real neat and all but fact still remains tasering and beaning a 95 year old man who has had an acute change in mental status is a dumb move. I mean by human standards, not what ever standards you seem to adhere to.


At the point he grabbed a knife, it was either that or shoot him. Which one, in your mind, has the greater chance of allowing him to survive the encounter?

Lego_Addict: If I was first on scene, I would have probably picked up a cane and dueled him. Swashbuckle style. Knocked any knife out of his hand. I'd probably be invited back for the matinee.


Real life is not a comedy movie.

Also, this.

www.aboyandhiscomputer.com
 
2013-07-28 02:35:07 PM  

eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.


...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?
 
2013-07-28 04:13:20 PM  

hardinparamedic: pedrop357: Yeah, you're a guy who doesn't want to be taken somewhere against his will.

Sometimes you don't have a choice legally. But something tells me you know this.


Yes, but the factors that lead to that legal issue should also alter how they respond to him.

It's total bullshiat to say that a person isn't mentally capable of saying NO, but then react to their behavior as if they're of sound mind.

You don't get to tase or shoot your 5 year old because they pick up wiffle ball bat and say "No" they're not going to the dentist.  The same thing that makes them unable to legally make that decision should also require that a response to their defiance be different than if they were 25 and of sound mind.
 
2013-07-28 04:16:25 PM  

hardinparamedic: Lego_Addict: In my opinion, your still a piece of shiat for tasering and beaning a 95 year old man.

You always come in to these threads spewing "but procedure allows cops to do this" bullshiat and miss the entire point.

You seem to miss the point yourself. He was threatening to kill someone with a knife. No one is under any obligation to get stabbed by someone, let alone by someone who is not in his right mind and more than likely CANNOT be reasoned with.

Maybe they should have just gotten knifed in the chest while wrestling with him. I'm sure that's in their job description SOMEWHERE. Or shot him? You know, at least if they had shot him, we'd know he died because of them. Not have the question of why he died two days later after being wheeled out while conscious and talking.

Ficoce: I'm sorry, I wasn't looking at it from your point of view. Yes, as a paramedic you need to get the hell out of the way and let the police handle the 95 year old cane waving men at assisted living facilities. Some people don't want your help and sometimes it's best to let the people that don't care handle it - it's too bad when tazers are the easy way out. Lots of other options.

He wasn't waving a cane around. He was waving a 12-inch long knife around.

What other options were there, in the case of someone who was being involuntarily transported (I.e. He does not have the right or choice to refus) and who is not in their right mind and is armed with a knife? Again, should they have just shot him and been done with it?

Leaving him alone was not an option.


You're still carrying on? He didn't pull the knife until after the cops got there. So here he is, 95 year old guy that needs a cane to walk, slowly hobbling toward you with a knife in an aggressive manner. You slowly back through the doorway and close the door. What does he do? He needs the cane to stand up and can't open the door with that huge knife in the other hand. He just stands there thinking. It's possible in his prime he was an assassin for the French underground during WWII,  but at this point he has about had it. He gets the door open and you throw a pillow at him - falls down, breaks a hip, and you perform your medical magic.
 
2013-07-28 04:19:06 PM  

hardinparamedic: Lego_Addict: Your reasoning is real neat and all but fact still remains tasering and beaning a 95 year old man who has had an acute change in mental status is a dumb move. I mean by human standards, not what ever standards you seem to adhere to.

At the point he grabbed a knife, it was either that or shoot him. Which one, in your mind, has the greater chance of allowing him to survive the encounter?

Lego_Addict: If I was first on scene, I would have probably picked up a cane and dueled him. Swashbuckle style. Knocked any knife out of his hand. I'd probably be invited back for the matinee.

Real life is not a comedy movie.

Also, this.


What used to happen before tasers? Certainly the cops we'ren't shooting every combatitive person they came across, knife wielders included.

You really think it would work as a comedy movie or are you just being nice?
 
2013-07-28 06:07:58 PM  

PsiChick: eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.

...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?


You didn't read the part where he was 95 and attacking paramedics trying helping him?  There's this thing called 'dementia'.  He's irrational and the safest thing for him AND everyone else around him is to get him under control as soon as possible.   What rational conversation did you think you can have with armed people with mental illness that makes them prone to violence?  Did you think the paramedics with health care and mental health care training, who had neither Tasers or guns weren't trying to verbally convince him to get treated and were still attacked?   Are you usually this detached from reality?
 
2013-07-28 06:24:38 PM  

tbeatty: PsiChick: eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.

...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?

You didn't read the part where he was 95 and attacking paramedics trying helping him?  There's this thing called 'dementia'.  He's irrational and the safest thing for him AND everyone else around him is to get him under control as soon as possible.   What rational conversation did you think you can have with armed people with mental illness that makes them prone to violence?  Did you think the paramedics with health care and mental health care training, who had neither Tasers or guns weren't trying to verbally convince him to get treated and were still attacked?   Are you usually this detached from reality?


As someone else suggested in the thread: "Okay, well, you don't have to go, buddy, but we need you to sign this...GRAB HIM!". Failing that, use the beanbags first. Hell,  make equipment for dealing with elderly dementia patients.

Normally, I'm all for using the quickest means necessary to get violently mentally ill people under control. Normally, we aren't talking about people who die after breaking a hip. If there isn't a means to deal with this already, that doesn't mean there never will be, it means we need to  start creating those means.
 
2013-07-28 06:27:26 PM  

tbeatty: PsiChick: eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.

...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?

You didn't read the part where he was 95 and attacking paramedics trying helping him?  There's this thing called 'dementia'.  He's irrational and the safest thing for him AND everyone else around him is to get him under control as soon as possible.   What rational conversation did you think you can have with armed people with mental illness that makes them prone to violence?  Did you think the paramedics with health care and mental health care training, who had neither Tasers or guns weren't trying to verbally convince him to get treated and were still attacked?   Are you usually this detached from reality?


He was "attacking" the paramedics with a 2 ft shoehorn and a metal cane. He didn't pick up the knife until police came. Frankly this was handled pretty poorly.
 
2013-07-28 06:48:20 PM  
Go out fighting. Always a win.
 
2013-07-28 08:34:21 PM  
themiserablesblog.files.wordpress.com

Hey, at least he died with his boots on...
 
2013-07-28 11:01:44 PM  

redmid17: tbeatty: PsiChick: eldritch2k4: MurphyMurphy: That's why we give them this shiat called 'training'.

You do realize that LEO training indicates that a subject within 20 feet with a knife is considered an "imminent threat to police or others" and subject to lethal force at the LEO's discretion.

...And you don't see a problem with this? That they were trained to, instead of verbally talk the man down or use a less harmful option (no, he didn't die from it--do you really thing tazering people who aren't in the peak of health is  good for them or something?), tazer and\or shoot the man.

You  want LEOs trained that way?

You didn't read the part where he was 95 and attacking paramedics trying helping him?  There's this thing called 'dementia'.  He's irrational and the safest thing for him AND everyone else around him is to get him under control as soon as possible.   What rational conversation did you think you can have with armed people with mental illness that makes them prone to violence?  Did you think the paramedics with health care and mental health care training, who had neither Tasers or guns weren't trying to verbally convince him to get treated and were still attacked?   Are you usually this detached from reality?

He was "attacking" the paramedics with a 2 ft shoehorn and a metal cane. He didn't pick up the knife until police came. Frankly this was handled pretty poorly.


He attacked paramedics.  Think about the rational reason for doing that (hint: there isn't one).  Not sure what kind of Unicorn dust and fairy magic you carry, but the paramedics were not able to calm, or subdue him or they would have.  Paramedics deal with the elderly and dementia routinely.   The police used the least amount of physical force.  Stop pretending that speaking louder will make him understand he is being unreasonable.  You obviously have little or no experience dealing with dementia or the elderly.   Let's start by understanding that the knife or cane must be physically removed from him.  Contracting  his own 95 year old muscles with a Taser will inflict a lot less stress on his bones than tackling him or performing a joint lock by a police officer or paramedic.  The Taser only applies the force his own muscles can generate.  Falling is his biggest danger with a Taser.  The paramedic's could have subdued him, but probably not without more severe injury and is why they called police.  He was alert and talking after the Taser and the paramedics were called for a reason.   Now when you look at a 95 year old's death and learn that someone called 911 the day before for a medical emergency, it's probably a good bet that the medical condition is life threatening which someone recognized before paramedics or police arrived
 
2013-07-28 11:20:43 PM  
Egads, how much of colossal pussy does someone have to be to need to a taser & a beanbag to take down a 95 year old man?

Oh that's right...
 
2013-07-28 11:27:24 PM  

you are a puppet: I could have sworn tasers were originally meant to be used instead of shooting people, now they're used instead of talking to people


I was talking about non-lethal force used by cops with a friend a couple of years ago and I remember him saying the exact same thing.  You really hit it on the nail.
 
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