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(Daily Mail)   There are still a few Nazis out there, so take a good a look at that old man down the street. You never know   (dailymail.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Obvious, war criminals, Simon Wiesenthal Center, Nazis, Third Reich, accessory to murder, Holocaust victims, sobibor, Efraim Zuroff  
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8593 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jul 2013 at 10:11 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-28 12:56:49 AM  
Just once I'd like to see an obituary: Gerhardt Katzenjammer: beloved husband, father, and grandfather; fugitive war criminal. After all, what's he got to lose?
 
2013-07-28 01:01:05 AM  

Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???


Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

 
2013-07-28 01:03:29 AM  
If we're talking about someone who was 17 when they were drafted into the Wermacht and spent their tour unloading trucks, I say fine; leave them alone.  Chances are they weren't left with much choice.

But the idea that people who committed crimes against humanity shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes becuase of their age is complete horseshiat.  If they're the person responsible, hold them accountable.
 
2013-07-28 01:05:04 AM  
Bonus points if he's your grandpa.
 
2013-07-28 01:07:07 AM  

Gyrfalcon: But what justice is served, no matter how terrible the crime, by trying 90-year old men for crimes 70 years past, except an abstract sense that "justice must be done"?



70 years?

Hell, that's nothin'. Try 2,400.
 
2013-07-28 01:09:14 AM  
I hate it when a thread about WWII sends me curiously off to wikipedia and I spend like three hours looking up different Nazis and can't even remember where I started at.

Anyway, if they can find and positively ID real living Nazis and SS members who committed crimes and aren't in rest homes suffering from dementia then I say go after them. At this stage though, there aren't many living witnesses left to testify and corroborate, and ID the accused. Not that the SS left many alive to begin with, I just think this page is nearly turned.
 
2013-07-28 01:12:43 AM  

vygramul: Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???

Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable


Are you into "hate", vygramul?

Do you get a charge out of it? Like smoking the ol' crackpipe?
 
2013-07-28 01:19:41 AM  
I can see their point. Basically, they're trying to send a message, loud and clear, that after over a thousand years of pogroms, persecutions, expulsions, blood libels, anti-Semitic riots, genocides, and just general "Kill the Jewish guy because Christ something..." that anyone, repeat, ANYONE, starting that shiat again will get put on trial, if they're a hundred years old, if they're in a foreign country, if they're on the dark side of the friggin' moon, and their family and friends will know exactly what they did and when. If the guy's dead, hell, they'll put his zombie ass on trial, fark him over, and bury him and dig him up again just to make the frigging point: STOP farkING WITH THE JEWS.
 
2013-07-28 01:21:32 AM  

BokerBill: Just once I'd like to see an obituary: Gerhardt Katzenjammer: beloved husband, father, and grandfather; fugitive war criminal. After all, what's he got to lose?



www.nndb.com

Hey!

That Wiesenthal bunch is TOUGH!

After the sack the Nazi, they go after his family - to the third and fourth generation, even!
 
2013-07-28 01:25:16 AM  

baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.


I have been studying military history for many years, one thing I try to do is draw the line between right and wrong. I think those who are wasting time and energy hunting these men down have a right too. However in my opinion its a waste of time and money.
I once had this argument in a jewish thread and it was clear they will continue to hunt as long as there is money to do or they can declare them all dead. On an interesting twist the only reason they contacted me because I have one of the first 10 english printed copies of Mein Kampf, they were interested in buying it only to burn it. And people wonder why History repeats itself. Much as I would love to see these men sent to trial, hanged and bodies burned, but whose going to pay for it? Sure put a 90+ something yr old guy on trial, he won't care because he already had a family, grand kids if not great by now and is almost at death. No justice will be served, what they need to do is stop wasting money searching for guys who got away with it and make sure the history doesn't repeat itself.

/then again tyrants will always exist, some get away with it without anyone being able to charge them with a crime
 
2013-07-28 01:27:59 AM  

Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???

Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Are you into "hate", vygramul?

Do you get a charge out of it? Like smoking the ol' crackpipe?


I'm not really able to relate to your drug experiences, nor to your particular brand of hate.

But it comes as no surprise you get a rush out of it.
 
2013-07-28 01:41:12 AM  
I wish they'd at least catch the Nazis that ordered the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
 
2013-07-28 01:43:34 AM  

Matlock?Mi.dailymail.co.ukencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

 
2013-07-28 01:54:21 AM  

vygramul: Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???

Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Are you into "hate", vygramul?

Do you get a charge out of it? Like smoking the ol' crackpipe?

I'm not really able to relate to your drug experiences, nor to your particular brand of hate.

But it comes as no surprise you get a rush out of it.



Oh, no indeed, vygramul. Hate is a very self-destructive emotion - regardless of the target.

Here's an experiment you can try at home:

Pick someone - ANYONE that you hate, and think about them... old or young, dead or alive, doesn't matter.

Now, build all of that anger, all of that rage, all that FURY into a seething, frothing, drooling crescendo - and HOLD IT! Milk it for all it's worth - feel it sucking the life-force from your body...

Now, who do you think suffered the ill-effects of your HATE?

You, or the object of your hatred?
 
2013-07-28 01:56:27 AM  
They already got the major players in the holocaust, these people they're going after now seem like a stretch if you ask me. Some kid who was a guard at some detention camp was hardly in a position to do anything about what was going on there. War was different back then, civilians getting killed was pretty common, when you carpet bomb or lob artillery shells at a town, you're not just killing soldiers. These people need to learn how to let shiat go.
 
2013-07-28 01:56:42 AM  
CruiserTwelve
I wish they'd at least catch the Nazis that ordered the bombing of Pearl Harbor.


Is this a joke or an alternative history suggestion?
 
2013-07-28 02:05:29 AM  

Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???

Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Are you into "hate", vygramul?

Do you get a charge out of it? Like smoking the ol' crackpipe?

I'm not really able to relate to your drug experiences, nor to your particular brand of hate.

But it comes as no surprise you get a rush out of it.


Oh, no indeed, vygramul. Hate is a very self-destructive emotion - regardless of the target.

Here's an experiment you can try at home:

Pick someone - ANYONE that you hate, and think about them... old or young, dead or alive, doesn't matter.

Now, build all of that anger, all of that rage, all that FURY into a seething, frothing, drooling crescendo - and HOLD IT! Milk it for all it's worth - feel it sucking the life-force from your body...

Now, who do you think suffered the ill-effects of your HATE?

You, or the object of your hatred?


That's rich.
 
2013-07-28 02:10:03 AM  

hubiestubert: Smackledorfer: hubiestubert: For the folks who think that these are just poor old men...watch who comes out for their funerals...

In fairness, this goes for the monsters that my mother's people put in charge of things too. Genocide doesn't have a statute of limitations. It's not about revenge, it's about holding them responsible, and not making them creatures of pity. It's about making them face what they've done. Plain and simple. It won't reach some, but as a society and a circle of societies, how we face these horrors, drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Never again" is important. As important today as it was then. Ethnic cleansing is still an issue. It is still going on. And not just in Africa, not just in out of the way nations, but in Europe and the whole situation in Georgia, just recently, was based on folks who figured that if they just exterminated their neighbors, everything would be fine. Mind you, the Ossetians called on the Bolsheviks to help them NOT be exterminated way back, and again, after Georgia split, folks figured that it was still a good option.

Tell yourselves, O ye defenders of the poor downtrodden monsters, that it's been too long. Then look into the faces of those who survived. Look into the faces of their children, and their children's children, who would never have been if these pieces of kuso had their way.

We can ignore it, because it's more convenient. But sometimes, it's a matter of standing up and saying, "No. No more."

If you think busting a 90+ year old for ANY crime has some deterrant factor, you are sorely mistaken.

You say it is about holding people responsible and not revenge, but what other purpose does punishment here serve? I still see nothing but revenge.

Then you haven't ever had to deal with skinheads or other of their ilk then. I've got some lovely scars from a skin and a knife who thought he was doing his "duty." This is not just about the men who committed atrocity, it's about delivering a message to those who hold them as heroes.

These men are heroes to these folks. The Holocaust in their eyes was "a good start." It still is. The Ultranationalists in Japan have a similar mindset, and in my mother's land, it's JUST as disturbing, and more so, that the government in Japan glosses over the atrocities committed. At least Germany tries to come to grips with their history--even though, in all my time in Germany, I never met a single German who admitted that anyone in their family was a part of the regime, or even had family who fought. This is not just about justice for the families, to see the men and women who committed atrocities brought to court, and given their day in court. That is the difference. These monsters, who consigned so many to die in camps, to be killed in the streets, to be buried en mass, see their day in court. Because we are societies governed by law. This about serving the law. That justice. Not simply dragged out into the street and shot, not quietly assassinated, but to see them face the law, to see the faces of their accusers, and realize that they have failed.


That entire post, in addition to baseless assumptions, has nothing to do with what I said.

If your new logic is the 'rule of law' line, I think you may find yourself capable of thinking up dozens of areas in which strict enforcement doesn't serve the society of laws.

I am not saying what nazis did was not an atrocity, but if your only argument is the same one that people use in anti-drug discussions or anti-immigrant rants, then you have at the very least failed to make a good case. "it's the law" isn't good enough (well, at least not if you admit it isn't good enough in any other area).
 
2013-07-28 02:21:12 AM  

sillydragon: I'm shocked how long it took for an Apt Pupil reference to show up. Fark, you're slipping! Though, I suppose it is Saturday night, and most people are seriously drunk by now... :)


Ninth post says don't you forget about me...
 
2013-07-28 02:33:32 AM  

Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???

Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Are you into "hate", vygramul?

Do you get a charge out of it? Like smoking the ol' crackpipe?

I'm not really able to relate to your drug experiences, nor to your particular brand of hate.

But it comes as no surprise you get a rush out of it.


Oh, no indeed, vygramul. Hate is a very self-destructive emotion - regardless of the target.

Here's an experiment you can try at home:

Pick someone - ANYONE that you hate, and think about them... old or young, dead or alive, doesn't matter.

Now, build all of that anger, all of that rage, all that FURY into a seething, frothing, drooling crescendo - and HOLD IT! Milk it for all it's worth - feel it sucking the life-force from your body...

Now, who do you think suffered the ill-effects of your HATE?

You, or the object of your hatred?


Look, I'm not interested in your hobbies. I don't need to hate an entire group of people. My life doesn't revolve around spreading hate of someone else like some neo-nazi without the courage to stand for what he believes.

Nope. I got better things to do - like point and laugh. Laughter is much better than hate.
 
2013-07-28 02:41:47 AM  

Smackledorfer: Smackledorfer: hubiestubert: For the folks who think that these are just poor old men...watch who comes out for their funerals...

In fairness, this goes for the monsters that my mother's people put in charge of things too. Genocide doesn't have a statute of limitations. It's not about revenge, it's about holding them responsible, and not making them creatures of pity. It's about making them face what they've done. Plain and simple. It won't reach some, but as a society and a circle of societies, how we face these horrors, drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Never again" is important. As important today as it was then. Ethnic cleansing is still an issue. It is still going on. And not just in Africa, not just in out of the way nations, but in Europe and the whole situation in Georgia, just recently, was based on folks who figured that if they just exterminated their neighbors, everything would be fine. Mind you, the Ossetians called on the Bolsheviks to help them NOT be exterminated way back, and again, after Georgia split, folks figured that it was still a good option.

Tell yourselves, O ye defenders of the poor downtrodden monsters, that it's been too long. Then look into the faces of those who survived. Look into the faces of their children, and their children's children, who would never have been if these pieces of kuso had their way.

We can ignore it, because it's more convenient. But sometimes, it's a matter of standing up and saying, "No. No more."

If you think busting a 90+ year old for ANY crime has some deterrant factor, you are sorely mistaken.

You say it is about holding people responsible and not revenge, but what other purpose does punishment here serve? I still see nothing but revenge.

Then you haven't ever had to deal with skinheads or other of their ilk then. I've got some lovely scars from a skin and a knife who thought he was doing his "duty." This is not just about the men who committed atrocity, it's about delivering a message to those who hold them as heroes.

These men are heroes to these folks. The Holocaust in their eyes was "a good start." It still is. The Ultranationalists in Japan have a similar mindset, and in my mother's land, it's JUST as disturbing, and more so, that the government in Japan glosses over the atrocities committed. At least Germany tries to come to grips with their history--even though, in all my time in Germany, I never met a single German who admitted that anyone in their family was a part of the regime, or even had family who fought. This is not just about justice for the families, to see the men and women who committed atrocities brought to court, and given their day in court. That is the difference. These monsters, who consigned so many to die in camps, to be killed in the streets, to be buried en mass, see their day in court. Because we are societies governed by law. This about serving the law. That justice. Not simply dragged out into the street and shot, not quietly assassinated, but to see them face the law, to see the faces of their accusers, and realize that they have failed.

That entire post, in addition to baseless assumptions, has nothing to do with what I said.

If your new logic is the 'rule of law' line, I think you may find yourself capable of thinking up dozens of areas in which strict enforcement doesn't serve the society of laws.

I am not saying what nazis did was not an atrocity, but if your only argument is the same one that people use in anti-drug discussions or anti-immigrant rants, then you have at the very least failed to make a good case. "it's the law" isn't good enough (well, at least not if you admit it isn't good enough in any other area).


If you mean by "baseless assumptions" that you missed the point of addressing not just the rule of law, but the scores of those who hold these folks as heroes, then, yes, I will cop to making that assumption. It's not just about serving justice for those who were involved. It's not just for the families of those affected. It is about sending a message to those who still think it's not an entirely bad idea, because people have forgotten, and their cause is just enough.

Will it deter the most hardened? Not as well as one might hope, but the "faithful" aren't going to be swayed by simply the stick of hard time, as they see the glory in it. That is where the rule of law comes in. Not some awful crusade that elevates them to martyr status, as being so horrible, so much of a challenge that society must do terrible things to them. Nope. That is attractive to the faithful. They want the glory. Instead, it's a matter of simple justice, and locking them away, with no glory, no grand standing, but a simple matter of excising them the population, and letting them sit in their cells to ponder the "glory" in being left to be forgotten.

The assumptions on this issue are your own. It's not a matter of revenge, it's not a matter of nebulous justice, it's about removing the cancers from our society, and letting them starve on the vine. They want the glory. They want the martyrdom. They want to be so very special, so challenging, such powerful figures that they can attract even more attention. Locking them away, without much fanfare, that denies them that. Which in fairness is really what we should have done in the case of those attached to Al Qaida. Not given them a special prison, and all the attention, but simply tried them, locked them away, and let their movement die on the vine. Instead, we fed into the complex as being so special, so dangerous, so very unique, that we couldn't try them openly. THAT is the other extreme from simply ignoring them. Justice served, that is the middle road. Not special. Just something that needs to be excised from the body politic, and to move on.
 
2013-07-28 02:48:52 AM  

cretinbob: [500memes.com image 500x500]


Then he would have victimized Romans not Jews.
 
2013-07-28 02:50:27 AM  

vygramul: Because I can't agree those are reasonable. These people need to be hunted down and locked up at German expense. They shouldn't be allowed to live out their remaining 1-20 years in peace. (Seriously, how would you feel if one of them made it to 115? Likely, they have 1-7 years.) This serves multiple purposes, not the least of which is deterrence.


If they've made it to their 90s, they've as good as escaped. They probably won't know what's going on at the trial, nor that they're in jail (if they live long enough). The countless genocides, ethnic cleansings, and eugenics programs that have been carried out since the Nuremberg trials (some by Israel) prove that these trials have zero deterrence value.

This doesn't mean that war criminals shouldn't be put on trial, of course, but it gets a bit pointless when the crime in question was so long ago. I'd like to see the Wiesenthal centre go after people who've committed more recent atrocities, like the people involved in the massacres in Rwanda, Indonesia, or Yugoslavia. They could even look into that israeli eugenics program.
 
2013-07-28 02:58:20 AM  

Xanlexian: cretinbob:
[i112.photobucket.com image 500x500]


What if, indeed.

[i112.photobucket.com image 292x720]


Seen quietly leaving the area:
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-07-28 03:06:05 AM  
Stephen Lynch expresses most well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPPaKFJukDA
 
2013-07-28 03:20:03 AM  

vygramul: Amos Quito: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Who said they wanted "justice"?

/Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Glad to see you in another Israel thread.

Oh, wait...



I know you guys don't like him for impolitely pointing out all the ugly stuff that Israel is about, but I find him to be a nice offset for the shills and JIDF crazies that inevitably wind up in these threads.

He's right about the hate bit.  All the Zionists seem to have this hard on about being hated, and it translates to a lot of hate on their part, whether it is valid or not.
 
2013-07-28 03:29:45 AM  

kg2095: cretinbob: [500memes.com image 500x500]

Then he would have victimized Romans not Jews.



While it was the the local Roman authorities that (apparently somewhat reluctantly) carried out the actual execution, wasn't it the Jewish authorities (the Pharisees) who set him up, and a bloodthirsty crowd that drove Pilate to "wash his hands" in exasperation?

Not religious..  but it's a fairly well known story.  If the Gospels are inaccurate, it would be really interesting to learn how.
 
2013-07-28 03:49:15 AM  

frak21: kg2095: cretinbob: [500memes.com image 500x500]

Then he would have victimized Romans not Jews.


While it was the the local Roman authorities that (apparently somewhat reluctantly) carried out the actual execution, wasn't it the Jewish authorities (the Pharisees) who set him up, and a bloodthirsty crowd that drove Pilate to "wash his hands" in exasperation?

Not religious..  but it's a fairly well known story.  If the Gospels are inaccurate, it would be really interesting to learn how.


The Romans were they own masters. They chose to do the deed.
 
2013-07-28 04:08:29 AM  
fark, you disappoint me.
www.thetvcritic.org
/if you want something done right...
 
2013-07-28 04:26:26 AM  

kg2095: frak21: kg2095: cretinbob: [500memes.com image 500x500]

Then he would have victimized Romans not Jews.


While it was the the local Roman authorities that (apparently somewhat reluctantly) carried out the actual execution, wasn't it the Jewish authorities (the Pharisees) who set him up, and a bloodthirsty crowd that drove Pilate to "wash his hands" in exasperation?

Not religious..  but it's a fairly well known story.  If the Gospels are inaccurate, it would be really interesting to learn how.

The Romans were they own masters. They chose to do the deed.



I understand this, and I understand that Jesus being known as "King of the Jews" was reason enough for execution (because you don't want the Jews nationalizing and causing problems for the Romans), but as the story apparently goes, Pilate investigated, found Jesus to be no real threat, and went out of his way (including offering amnesty for one prisoner that the crowd picked) to avoid executing him.  Yet, the crowd cried out for Jesus's head and in doing so, Jesus's "own people" turned against him.

So, it looks like he would have been acquitted and gone on to institute reform in Judaism, but the Jewish authorities, in an effort to protect their own positions of privilege (which would have been threatened by reformation), wanted him out of the way and set him up so that the Romans really had no choice if they were going to keep the Jews placated.

Again, not religious or a bible scholar, but I've never gotten an adequate answer from any Jewish people I've had the opportunity to ask when the topic comes up.
 
2013-07-28 04:57:43 AM  
Since I really don't believe in an afterlife, I don't feel even slightly bad about a murderer getting theirs in the end where the world can see it. They're old and weak and helpless? Well some of those attributes were probably applicable to their victims. I like when what goes around comes around.
 
fdr
2013-07-28 05:01:34 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?


No. They do it to deliver justice and keep the memory of those that died alive. Or, I suppose, we could forget justice and all that and save taxpayers a few bucks.
 
2013-07-28 05:01:50 AM  
I am positive the old man who lives down the street from me was a nazi, but I live in Germany so there you go...
 
fdr
2013-07-28 05:26:42 AM  

baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.


So if I murder 500 innocent people the day before I'm 90, I get to walk because you just don't see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.
 
fdr
2013-07-28 05:35:33 AM  

Smackledorfer: NeedlesslyCanadian: baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.

Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Vengeance nothing. There isn't--and nor should there be--a statute of limitation on murder, crimes against humanity, etc. Just because they've eluded justice for 60-70 years, does not justify letting them off the hook.

So vengeance then?


No. Justice.
 
2013-07-28 05:37:43 AM  
Wait- you mean if I find an old Nazi and turn him in, I win $30,810!? Unlike the lottery which has better odds, I could actually work to win this prize.
 
2013-07-28 05:45:09 AM  
Meh.... When the people you're looking for are most likely drooling in a wheelchair in the corner of the dayroom at the local Old Folks Home, it's less about "justice", and more about people at the Simon Weisenthal Center realizing that they need to justify their own relevance if the paychecks are gonna keep rolling in.

There's a reason that movie themes quit using the 'Old Nazi Hiding in South America' thing back in the 80s, most people don't feel the need for "revenge" when there are almost no people left who even remember the events in question anymore...

Seriously everyone is either dead or has moved on.

Except the Jewish folk...

This seems to be their specialty.
 
2013-07-28 06:16:20 AM  
Your 12-year-old son, 15-year-old daughter, and your wife of 20 years have all been found murdered in your home that's been robbed, stabbed to death when they interrupted the home intruder.  The police work the case hard, but nothing turns up.  A year passes.  Two years.  Are you over it?  Do you ask the police to call off the investigation?  Of course not.  5 years pass.  10.  At what point do you tell the police to put away the file and forget all about it?

Never, of course.  You could live another 30 or 40 or even 50 years, and still never forget that the person who murdered your family was never caught.  If you're a mentally healthy person you've moved on and built a new life for yourself, but you'd never forget.  It's not about vengeance, and it's not about perennial victim hood.  It's about justice, or more specifically, closure.  You've been the victim of a terrible crime, and the loop has been left open.  Most normal, sane people need that loop closed.

Those of you advocating some kind of statute of limitations on murder and genocide haven't thought this through.  Simple as that.  Put yourself in a victim's shoes, and then ask yourself honestly if you'd still be advocating letting them off the hook.  There are good reasons why murder has no statute of limitations.  Justice is served whether the perp is 20 or 90.  Yes, at 90 it's too little too late, but a little is better than none at all.  The only people who would say it's worthless are those people who are seeking vengeance and not justice, so I guess that tells us a little about what worldview filter advocates of limitations are putting this situation through.
 
2013-07-28 06:31:06 AM  

Enemabag Jones: CruiserTwelve
I wish they'd at least catch the Nazis that ordered the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Is this a joke or an alternative history suggestion?


Forget it. He's rolling.
 
2013-07-28 06:59:38 AM  

vygramul: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

Wait - are you proposing a statute of limitations on murder, or an age limit on murder, or both?

Because I can't agree those are reasonable. These people need to be hunted down and locked up at German expense. They shouldn't be allowed to live out their remaining 1-20 years in peace. (Seriously, how would you feel if one of them made it to 115? Likely, they have 1-7 years.) This serves multiple purposes, not the least of which is deterrence.

I might be willing to offer up some kind of plea deal amnesty for people who turn themselves in right now, complete with confession and details about their compatriots, escape, and other relevant information. In exchange, they get 5 years. Who knows? It's a gamble and they might get out to enjoy a few before they go.


Israel did not extradite Salomon Morel due to statute of limitations.  I'm not sure how these would be any different.
 
2013-07-28 07:03:05 AM  

karmachameleon: Your 12-year-old son, 15-year-old daughter, and your wife of 20 years have all been found murdered in your home that's been robbed, stabbed to death when they interrupted the home intruder.  The police work the case hard, but nothing turns up.  A year passes.  Two years.  Are you over it?  Do you ask the police to call off the investigation?  Of course not.  5 years pass.  10.  At what point do you tell the police to put away the file and forget all about it?

Never, of course.  You could live another 30 or 40 or even 50 years, and still never forget that the person who murdered your family was never caught.  If you're a mentally healthy person you've moved on and built a new life for yourself, but you'd never forget.  It's not about vengeance, and it's not about perennial victim hood.  It's about justice, or more specifically, closure.  You've been the victim of a terrible crime, and the loop has been left open.  Most normal, sane people need that loop closed.

Those of you advocating some kind of statute of limitations on murder and genocide haven't thought this through.  Simple as that.  Put yourself in a victim's shoes, and then ask yourself honestly if you'd still be advocating letting them off the hook.  There are good reasons why murder has no statute of limitations.  Justice is served whether the perp is 20 or 90.  Yes, at 90 it's too little too late, but a little is better than none at all.  The only people who would say it's worthless are those people who are seeking vengeance and not justice, so I guess that tells us a little about what worldview filter advocates of limitations are putting this situation through.


I'm not saying they shouldn't be brought to justice, but if 40-50 years has gone by and you're still needing closure then I would argue that you have mental health issues. It's as bad as these cases where the killer is caught right away, and 20-30 years later their loved ones are still showing up to the persons parole hearings talking about how a day doesn't go by where they're not overcome with grief over their loss. Sorry but if you haven't gotten over the death of a loved one after 20+ years, then you need to be seeing a psychiatrist.
 
2013-07-28 07:21:54 AM  
Can they prove these guys committed atrocities just because they were Nazis? Our soldiers committed some pretty sick shiat when we were in Viet Nam. Should we round up all Viet Nam vets?
 
HKW
2013-07-28 07:35:43 AM  

NeedlesslyCanadian: baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.

Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Vengeance nothing. There isn't--and nor should there be--a statute of limitation on murder, crimes against humanity, etc. Just because they've eluded justice for 60-70 years, does not justify letting them off the hook.


Their "crimes" is what we say say they are --  since we won the war and all.   Lots of 'attrocities' occur in war, but since we won, we get to choose which ones are punishable.   For example, In 1943, in the pivotal Atlantic convoy battle of ONS-5 vs wolfpacks, U-125 was rammed by an escort in thick fog.   The crew of the sub scuttled and abandoned the ship.  The escort asked permission to retrieve the surviving crew bobbing in the cold water.   "Not approved to pick up survivors" was the reply.
Since 'we' won the war, Lieutenant Commander Robert Sherwood (the man who sent that order) gets to relax in his rocking chair and die an honorable & brave serviceman who was forced to make hard life & death decisions in critical times under combat conditions.
Had Germany won the war, the Max Fritzmann center would be issuing a bounty for the capture of war criminal Robert Sherwood who refused aid & allowed survivors to die contrary to customary international law.
Ironically, at the Nuremberg trials, This exact same charge - not picking up survivors of a shipwreck - was one of the many directed against Dornitz.
 
2013-07-28 07:54:02 AM  
ReapTheChaos: I'm not saying they shouldn't be brought to justice, but if 40-50 years has gone by and you're still needing closure then I would argue that you have mental health issues.

This sort of argument structure is generally used by people who are ashamed of what they believe. I'm not racist, but... I'm not homophobic, but... I don't support suicide bombing, but... I don't cheat on my taxes, but... I don't think it's ok to drink drive, but...

Be a little more honest. Don't use the 'but'. If your position is untenable or morally reprehensible, just let that be up-front and evident.

/I don't mean to be a jackass, but...
 
2013-07-28 08:25:14 AM  

ReapTheChaos: I'm not saying they shouldn't be brought to justice, but if 40-50 years has gone by and you're still needing closure then I would argue that you have mental health issues. It's as bad as these cases where the killer is caught right away, and 20-30 years later their loved ones are still showing up to the persons parole hearings talking about how a day doesn't go by where they're not overcome with grief over their loss. Sorry but if you haven't gotten over the death of a loved one after 20+ years, then you need to be seeing a psychiatrist.


Maybe so, but you know what?  It's never happened to me, so I can't imagine what it's like to walk in their shoes.  Hopefully, neither can you.  So until we have some solid ground to stand on regarding this topic, I'd rather not go around judging how people "should" handle their grief and loss, even decades later.

I'm betting both you and I would go to parole hearings ourselves.  It takes quite a saint to forgive the murderer of a loved one - I know there are people who do it, but from what I can tell they're few and far between.  More power to them, I'm sure it brings them peace (and that's what forgiveness is really for anyway; not for the offender but for the offended), but I doubt I could be that person.  Could you?
 
2013-07-28 08:50:08 AM  

karmachameleon: Your 12-year-old son, 15-year-old daughter, and your wife of 20 years have all been found murdered in your home that's been robbed, stabbed to death when they interrupted the home intruder.  The police work the case hard, but nothing turns up.  A year passes.  Two years.  Are you over it?  Do you ask the police to call off the investigation?  Of course not.  5 years pass.  10.  At what point do you tell the police to put away the file and forget all about it?


At some point, the guy who murdered this hypothetical family has become a doddering old man who can't even wipe his own ass and barely remembers his own name. The guy who killed that family is long gone. All that's left is an old relic.

What to do ...?
 
2013-07-28 08:55:34 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: So when are the Mossad assassins going to face trial? If we're serious about justice and all.


Approves:
gfx.dagbladet.no

/mossad is a terrorist group
//fark em
///with a toilet brush
 
2013-07-28 09:09:08 AM  

frak21: I know you guys don't like him for impolitely pointing out all the ugly stuff that Israel is about, but I find him to be a nice offset for the shills and JIDF crazies that inevitably wind up in these threads.

He's right about the hate bit.  All the Zionists seem to have this hard on about being hated, and it translates to a lot of hate on their part, whether it is valid or not.


No, I don't like him impolitely pointing out all the ugly things about Jews in threads that aren't about Israel and then claiming his only problem is with Israel.

As far as Israel goes, I may not be a big fan of israel - there is plenty objectively wrong with Israel. But deal with the reality of Israel and Fark will applaud you. Treat them as imaginary phantoms, evil in human fantasies, and Fark would have justified contempt for you.
 
2013-07-28 10:14:07 AM  
I'd feel better about this if there were ANY efforts in the US to prosecute high-level financial criminals for acts causing widespread distress, poverty, and stress-related death to millions, as well as prosecution for businessmen and scientists who sign off on unsafe food, drink, pharmaceuticals and other consumer products.

How about protecting people NOW, not just going after the pawns of a foreign regime brought down a lifetime ago?  But then isn't it so that power confers immunity, and the war criminal is someone who no longer has power, if they ever had it at all?
 
2013-07-28 10:39:38 AM  

karmachameleon: ReapTheChaos: I'm not saying they shouldn't be brought to justice, but if 40-50 years has gone by and you're still needing closure then I would argue that you have mental health issues. It's as bad as these cases where the killer is caught right away, and 20-30 years later their loved ones are still showing up to the persons parole hearings talking about how a day doesn't go by where they're not overcome with grief over their loss. Sorry but if you haven't gotten over the death of a loved one after 20+ years, then you need to be seeing a psychiatrist.

Maybe so, but you know what?  It's never happened to me, so I can't imagine what it's like to walk in their shoes.  Hopefully, neither can you.  So until we have some solid ground to stand on regarding this topic, I'd rather not go around judging how people "should" handle their grief and loss, even decades later.

I'm betting both you and I would go to parole hearings ourselves.  It takes quite a saint to forgive the murderer of a loved one - I know there are people who do it, but from what I can tell they're few and far between.  More power to them, I'm sure it brings them peace (and that's what forgiveness is really for anyway; not for the offender but for the offended), but I doubt I could be that person.  Could you?


So you're saying that people cant understand grief and loss unless they've had a loved one murdered? Death is death, whether it's murder, a heart attack or some kind of accident. I fail to see how they died really matters to the point I was making.
 
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