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(Daily Mail)   There are still a few Nazis out there, so take a good a look at that old man down the street. You never know   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 204
    More: Obvious, war criminals, Simon Wiesenthal Center, Nazis, Third Reich, accessory to murder, Holocaust victims, sobibor, Efraim Zuroff  
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8576 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jul 2013 at 10:11 PM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



204 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-07-27 07:09:15 PM
Others identified in The Sun are Gerhard Sommer, an SS man who is now aged 92, who helped massacre 560 people in an Italian village.

????!!

What about....
www.japanfocus.org
 
2013-07-27 07:20:51 PM
So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?
 
2013-07-27 07:24:03 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?


The best part is that the reward money requires arrest, conviction, and "years long" time spent in jail. How many will last even through a trial at this point?
 
2013-07-27 07:37:13 PM
Simon Wiesenthal Center is about the money. They have a cozy thing going but have to find a "Nazi" once in while to look legit.
 
2013-07-27 07:54:58 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?


Wait - are you proposing a statute of limitations on murder, or an age limit on murder, or both?

Because I can't agree those are reasonable. These people need to be hunted down and locked up at German expense. They shouldn't be allowed to live out their remaining 1-20 years in peace. (Seriously, how would you feel if one of them made it to 115? Likely, they have 1-7 years.) This serves multiple purposes, not the least of which is deterrence.

I might be willing to offer up some kind of plea deal amnesty for people who turn themselves in right now, complete with confession and details about their compatriots, escape, and other relevant information. In exchange, they get 5 years. Who knows? It's a gamble and they might get out to enjoy a few before they go.
 
2013-07-27 08:01:32 PM
Only Nazis think that apostrophes make plurals.
 
2013-07-27 08:02:15 PM
500memes.com
 
2013-07-27 08:04:12 PM
A few Nazi is what?
 
2013-07-27 08:09:22 PM
Sounds like we're in the middle of a Summer of Corruption.
 
2013-07-27 08:36:04 PM
Perhaps the old man's smile is out of place?
 
2013-07-27 08:40:32 PM
Tell me a story--Will ya, Will ya
A real good story, I won't leave till ya
Spill your guts old man
Leave out any secrets, Hiding in the..

Any skeletons, and all your other sins
Any skeletons, in the closet
Any skeletons, any misfortunes
Any skeletons, hiding in the closet
Any skeletons, Any skeletons
In the Closet!
 
2013-07-27 09:07:42 PM

Vectron: Others identified in The Sun are Gerhard Sommer, an SS man who is now aged 92, who helped massacre 560 people in an Italian village.

????!!

What about....
[www.japanfocus.org image 457x300]


Nanking is just Chinese Propaganda to make the Japanese people look bad. You're a racist gaijin for believing it.
 
2013-07-27 09:21:37 PM
Ivan Kalymon (right), 92, was tracked down to Michigan, USA, and ordered to be deported but no country has so far agreed to take him

Seriously?  Israel won't take him?
 
2013-07-27 09:25:05 PM
robsmovievault.files.wordpress.com

Do not be concerned. This guy looks legit.
 
2013-07-27 09:39:38 PM
www.innermind.com

This individual is not legit. Unfortunately, he seems to have disappeared. Unconfirmed rumours suggest suicide, however.

/Obscure?
 
2013-07-27 09:53:55 PM
Simon Wiesenthal Center reminds us to never lose a war.
 
2013-07-27 10:13:42 PM
Wow, I bet these fugitives did Nazi that coming
 
2013-07-27 10:15:58 PM
Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.
 
2013-07-27 10:16:14 PM
Are they going to come after my dad too?

Cos he bombed Dresden.

/too late he's dead already
 
2013-07-27 10:17:39 PM
If they wanna impress me find Heinrich Müller, highest ranking Nazi whose wherabouts is unknown.
 
2013-07-27 10:17:59 PM
Is it safe?
 
2013-07-27 10:20:22 PM

you are a puppet: Is it safe?


What's the frequency, Kenneth?
 
2013-07-27 10:22:06 PM

TheCheese: you are a puppet: Is it safe?

What's the frequency, Kenneth?


Stay out of Woolworths!

Oldiron_79: If they wanna impress me find Heinrich Müller, highest ranking Nazi whose wherabouts is unknown.


Hopefully burning in hell.
 
2013-07-27 10:24:42 PM

Dimensio: [robsmovievault.files.wordpress.com image 560x330]

Do not be concerned. This guy looks legit.


Came here to make Apt Pupil reference.

 *Internet High Five*
 
2013-07-27 10:28:03 PM

you are a puppet: Is it safe?


No.
 
2013-07-27 10:30:55 PM
2.bp.blogspot.com
Well we know where one former Nazi is for sure.....
 
2013-07-27 10:32:27 PM
I think they just need to take a shower and be given a pretty flower.
And maybe participate in lamp making.
 
2013-07-27 10:32:38 PM
There's an old woman who lives down the street who goes for daily walks and looks EXACTLY like that old woman on greeting cards.
Is she a Nazi?

Also, I wonder if you all share my conflict. On the one hand these people did horrible things 70 years ago, on the other hand they're all old frail people who society says we should respect and show mercy. Like, as a 20 year old who slaughtered a village you'd have no problem pushing them down, but as a 90 year old who's fallen, you'd pick them up. Like, the brain does not connect the two.
 
2013-07-27 10:33:00 PM
As long as we indulge the victims of crimes, we'll always have victims seeking revenge.

Once we divorce law and punishment from revenge, we'll have a just society.
 
2013-07-27 10:38:40 PM

baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.


Then we watch very different kinds of porn.
 
2013-07-27 10:39:17 PM
I heard about this the other day and thought "But the youngest of them are going to be 90. Why go through the trouble, it looks bad to harass a little old man"

Vectron: Simon Wiesenthal Center is about the money. They have a cozy thing going but have to find a "Nazi" once in while to look legit.


I think you have a point there. I carry a book on the holocaust memorial industry occasionally, and it feels like the same suggestion about cancer societies and MADD. There's a whole organization with a bunch of people making money, and there's cozy connections between non-profit event organizers and their supply contractors.

Although for the longest time it seemed like the Republicans were using abortion as a drum banger, but they're winning and now it's becoming a Democrat drum banger.
 
2013-07-27 10:40:07 PM
These guys need to hook up with Jesse and Al.
Suffering forever and ever and ever
BOOYA
 
2013-07-27 10:40:56 PM
img2.timeinc.net
The need to call the certified, circumcised, dick
 
2013-07-27 10:41:32 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?


I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.
 
2013-07-27 10:43:36 PM

hardinparamedic: TheCheese: you are a puppet: Is it safe?

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

Stay out of Woolworths!

Oldiron_79: If they wanna impress me find Heinrich Müller, highest ranking Nazi whose wherabouts is unknown.

Hopefully burning in hell.


Well If there is such a place Im sure hes going there, but yeah the head of the Farking Gestapo is a pretty high level guy to be unaccounted for, I mean if they had found him he would probably have been tried at Nüremburg.
 
2013-07-27 10:44:29 PM

Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Maybe for civil suit.
 
2013-07-27 10:45:24 PM

baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.


Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.



Vengeance nothing. There isn't--and nor should there be--a statute of limitation on murder, crimes against humanity, etc. Just because they've eluded justice for 60-70 years, does not justify letting them off the hook.
 
2013-07-27 10:48:19 PM

Bedstead Polisher: There's an old woman who lives down the street who goes for daily walks and looks EXACTLY like that old woman on greeting cards.
Is she a Nazi?

Also, I wonder if you all share my conflict. On the one hand these people did horrible things 70 years ago, on the other hand they're all old frail people who society says we should respect and show mercy. Like, as a 20 year old who slaughtered a village you'd have no problem pushing them down, but as a 90 year old who's fallen, you'd pick them up. Like, the brain does not connect the two.


I think it's rather pointless, but for slightly different reasons. These old farts have already lived the best years of their lives freely - what justice is there in locking them up now, when they hardly have any time left anyway? It's too late for true justice. I have to think if any of them died now, they'd feel they lived a full life anyway, something their victims didn't get to enjoy.
 
2013-07-27 10:49:12 PM
So when are the Mossad assassins going to face trial? If we're serious about justice and all.
 
2013-07-27 10:50:23 PM

Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


What's the statute of imitations on genocide?

Is it "justice" if served within X years, but "vengeance" if it's X+1 years?
 
2013-07-27 10:51:44 PM

Shenanigans!: Bedstead Polisher: There's an old woman who lives down the street who goes for daily walks and looks EXACTLY like that old woman on greeting cards.
Is she a Nazi?

Also, I wonder if you all share my conflict. On the one hand these people did horrible things 70 years ago, on the other hand they're all old frail people who society says we should respect and show mercy. Like, as a 20 year old who slaughtered a village you'd have no problem pushing them down, but as a 90 year old who's fallen, you'd pick them up. Like, the brain does not connect the two.

I think it's rather pointless, but for slightly different reasons. These old farts have already lived the best years of their lives freely - what justice is there in locking them up now, when they hardly have any time left anyway? It's too late for true justice. I have to think if any of them died now, they'd feel they lived a full life anyway, something their victims didn't get to enjoy.


Yeah putting a 90 year old in a prison hospital unit instead of a regular hospital the rest of thier life isn't gonna do shiat for justice for anyone. Maybe a good hanging would be some justice.
 
2013-07-27 10:52:53 PM
Elsewhere, Vladimir Katriuk, 93, allegedly killed the villagers of Khatyn, in Belaus, by setting fire to them in a barn in 1943. He is understood to currently be living in Canada, according to The Sun.


That must be the first time The Sun got a scoop on anything.
 
2013-07-27 10:54:08 PM
...Myself I kinda think that seeing an elderly Nazi in the dock,  facing justice even after all these years, might have a sobering effect on the next would-be conqueror who thinks he can get away with it.
 
2013-07-27 10:54:21 PM
I can see why the Simon Wiesenthal Center  has it in for this Danish SS guy Soren Kam.

Kam been basically thumbing his nose at them for years. The Danish courts want him tried for murder, the German courts have looked at the evidence and said at best, it's manslaughter, the statute of limitations on manslaughter have expired, the guy is now a German citizen, so no extradition for you!
 
2013-07-27 10:54:52 PM
a quick scan of the thread shows the usual prententious prattle about dresden and hiroshima

the amusing part is what this pretentious prattle would have gotten them in the regimes that were supported by the citizens of dresden and hiroshima

pity is a luxury
 
2013-07-27 10:55:35 PM

baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.


TFA mentions one was convicted but did not serve the sentence due to age.

Yes, some Nazis are still alive, though mainly just the lowest soldiers who were barely adults at the time, but if they're too old to be punished according to civilized standards then there's only so much justice that can be done.

It's also questionable if the example being set by war crimes trials is actually preventing war crimes. War crimes don't get prosecuted unless the government sponsoring them is overthrown.
 
2013-07-27 10:55:54 PM
I'm shocked how long it took for an Apt Pupil reference to show up. Fark, you're slipping! Though, I suppose it is Saturday night, and most people are seriously drunk by now... :)
 
2013-07-27 11:01:28 PM

NeedlesslyCanadian: A few Nazi is what?


Is Nazis
 
2013-07-27 11:02:38 PM

NeedlesslyCanadian: baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.

Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Vengeance nothing. There isn't--and nor should there be--a statute of limitation on murder, crimes against humanity, etc. Just because they've eluded justice for 60-70 years, does not justify letting them off the hook.


So vengeance then?
 
2013-07-27 11:03:16 PM
I preferred the burbs over the serious one. The burbs is a seriously underrated comedy.
 
2013-07-27 11:03:58 PM

Oldiron_79: If they wanna impress me find Heinrich Müller, highest ranking Nazi whose wherabouts is unknown.


He probably died in 1945, Berlin was a harsh place when war came back home with a shiatload of angry russians in its luggage.
And even if he didn't: He'd be 113 years old now, so it's highly unlikely that he's still alive.
 
2013-07-27 11:04:27 PM
So many graves of ex-Nazis, so much pissing to be done, so little time
 
2013-07-27 11:05:09 PM

NeedlesslyCanadian: A few Nazi is what?


In need of a dodge to clear them off a bridge?
 
2013-07-27 11:06:49 PM

Smackledorfer: So vengeance then?


If you accept the Nuremberg Doctrine towards "Superior Orders", then he is absolutely correct.
 
2013-07-27 11:09:14 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.

What's the statute of imitations on genocide?

Is it "justice" if served within X years, but "vengeance" if it's X+1 years?


Fwiw, picking someone who committed a crime and ignoring it after the fact as circumstances change is not the same as requesting a statute of limitations.

I don't see why I cannot be against pointless vengeance without being buried under strawmen.
 
2013-07-27 11:10:19 PM
vygramul:

These people need to be hunted down and locked up at German expense. They shouldn't be allowed to live out their remaining 1-20 years in peace. (Seriously, how would you feel if one of them made it to 115? Likely, they have 1-7 years.)

Unfortunately it also illustrates the claim that "the Jews are terribly vindictive." And ya gotta admit it is pretty vindictive. "We will hunt you to the ends of the Earth for the rest of your lives!"


This serves multiple purposes, not the least of which is deterrence.

Deterring what, exactly? Another "race"-based series of government-organized mass murders? Does the word "Rwanda" mean anything to you?

Or do you mean another "heroic challenge to Zionist domination?" The last big thing, the Yom Kippur War of 1973, didn't go so well thanks to the Nixon administration both arming Israel and protecting it with the US' "nuclear umbrella," and no subsequent US administration has said anything to indicate it's now okay to attack Israel. That does a lot more to protect "the Jews" than hunting down every doddering old Nazi.

What exactly do you hope to deter? "[The] evil that lurks in the hearts of men?"

Hunt them down and torment them if you must but don't pretend it serves any other purpose than revenge.

"Hello, my name is Shimon Rubinstein. You killed my great-grandfather 70 years ago. Prepare to be miserable for every remaining second of your drooling pants-shiatting life!"

Are there no more productive endeavors to be attempted?  Are there no widows and orphans who need protecting? Are there no more recent war crimes to be detected? Has world peace suddenly broken out?

If nothing else try a nice hobby. There's a lot to be said for stamp collecting.
 
2013-07-27 11:14:01 PM
Leave them alone.  They have all atoned for their sins and are doing a ton of good correcting grammar on the internet!
 
2013-07-27 11:16:33 PM
They should call it operation "it's over".
 
2013-07-27 11:17:34 PM

you are a puppet: Is it safe?


Yes it's safe. It's very safe. It's so safe you wouldn't believe it.
 
2013-07-27 11:18:42 PM

Mock26: Leave them alone.  They have all atoned for their sins and are doing a ton of good correcting grammar on the internet!


I just laughed so hard blew scotch through my nose
 
2013-07-27 11:20:18 PM

Cormee: NeedlesslyCanadian: A few Nazi is what?

Is Nazis


Was an apostrophe in it before it went to FarkLite.
 
2013-07-27 11:22:06 PM
i.crackedcdn.com
 
2013-07-27 11:22:08 PM

Smackledorfer: Lionel Mandrake: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.

What's the statute of imitations on genocide?

Is it "justice" if served within X years, but "vengeance" if it's X+1 years?

Fwiw, picking someone who committed a crime and ignoring it after the fact as circumstances change is not the same as requesting a statute of limitations.


to-MAY-to, to-MAH-to

I don't see why I cannot be against pointless vengeance without being buried under strawmen.

I hate to break it to you, princess, but you are not the universal arbiter of what constitutes "pointless."

You're free to forgive and forget if you wish.  I don't blame people for seeking justice however long it takes.  We're talking active, willful participation in genocide, here.  These guys aren't just your average Hans drafted into the Wehrmacht and sent to the front lines.
 
2013-07-27 11:23:42 PM
You can spend tons of money going after them and putting the last few in prison, but most of them won't know what's going on.  By the time a trial is over, if they make it through, they'll be completely gaga.  A 16 old kid who got pressed into the German army in 1944 would be 85 today.  Anybody who had any actual authority is going to be in their mid-90s at the youngest.
 
2013-07-27 11:26:20 PM

NeedlesslyCanadian: Cormee: NeedlesslyCanadian: A few Nazi is what?

Is Nazis

Was an apostrophe in it before it went to FarkLite.


Snobbery is an ugly thing
 
2013-07-27 11:26:24 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.

What's the statute of imitations on genocide?

Is it "justice" if served within X years, but "vengeance" if it's X+1 years?


Justice is not pointless retribution, regardless of the years.

Is something gained from punishing the few nazis left? I don't believe so. If you think there is, then explain that. Don't hide behind some catch all authoritarian shield like 'justice', especially not as a synonym for revenge.
 
2013-07-27 11:32:32 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Smackledorfer: Lionel Mandrake: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.

What's the statute of imitations on genocide?

Is it "justice" if served within X years, but "vengeance" if it's X+1 years?

Fwiw, picking someone who committed a crime and ignoring it after the fact as circumstances change is not the same as requesting a statute of limitations.

to-MAY-to, to-MAH-to

I don't see why I cannot be against pointless vengeance without being buried under strawmen.

I hate to break it to you, princess, but you are not the universal arbiter of what constitutes "pointless."

You're free to forgive and forget if you wish.  I don't blame people for seeking justice however long it takes.  We're talking active, willful participation in genocide, here.  These guys aren't just your average Hans drafted into the Wehrmacht and sent to the front lines.


"princess"? Oh come on mandrake, that is a quick sink to personal attacks. Thanks for supporting my argumemt though. You have no logical reason or purpose to the actions you call for. Actions that don't come without opportunity cost and possible superior alternatives with those resources.
 
2013-07-27 11:42:06 PM

Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


But this is not vengeance.  It is justice.  Justice must be ever vigilant, regardless of how much time has passed.
 
2013-07-27 11:48:56 PM
I thought they all work at the EPA
 
2013-07-27 11:50:06 PM

Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.



Who said they wanted "justice"?

/Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable
 
2013-07-27 11:52:30 PM
So go after every injustice in every war fought since WWII?

Soon the whole world will be blind.
 
2013-07-27 11:53:29 PM
So when does the world start punishing, you know, American war criminals?
 
2013-07-27 11:54:04 PM
What a Nazi may look like:
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-07-27 11:56:59 PM
Nazis are bad......but admit it, Detroit and Chicago could benefit from their presence for a few weeks.
 
2013-07-27 11:57:17 PM
Night of Glass was in 1938, Germany invaded Poland in 1939.  For Simplicity lets say the war started in 1940.  There were Brown shirt activities before, but 1938 to 1939 is when things started.

Assuming the person was twenty in 1940, then are at +73 years in 2013.

So we are look at a target age of 93 for those that might be considered responsible adults in Germany that may have considered war crimes.

If the evidence is more than just a grainy black and white photo of an alleged SS person comparing them to the 93 or older German or Austrian is just stupid.

If there was a child involved where DNA can be compared, light it up.  But I am tired of show trials with alleged claims to remind people of the Shoah.

/For the record, there has been the Khmer Rouge, Turks vs Armenians, Rwanda and others I forget off the top of my head.  I don't see a PR machine streaming pretty much the same movie about those events for decades on.  I have the deepest respect for the survivors and the children of them, but it is time to move on.

//Rephrased, you can't play victim forever.
 
2013-07-28 12:06:01 AM

puffy999: So when does the world start punishing, you know, American war criminals?


0/10
 
2013-07-28 12:06:36 AM

Enemabag Jones: Night of Glass was in 1938, Germany invaded Poland in 1939.  For Simplicity lets say the war started in 1940.  There were Brown shirt activities before, but 1938 to 1939 is when things started.

Assuming the person was twenty in 1940, then are at +73 years in 2013.

So we are look at a target age of 93 for those that might be considered responsible adults in Germany that may have considered war crimes.

If the evidence is more than just a grainy black and white photo of an alleged SS person comparing them to the 93 or older German or Austrian is just stupid.

If there was a child involved where DNA can be compared, light it up.  But I am tired of show trials with alleged claims to remind people of the Shoah.

/For the record, there has been the Khmer Rouge, Turks vs Armenians, Rwanda and others I forget off the top of my head.  I don't see a PR machine streaming pretty much the same movie about those events for decades on.  I have the deepest respect for the survivors and the children of them, but it is time to move on.

//Rephrased, you can't play victim forever.



Wanna bet?

Victimhood is necessary nutrient.
 
2013-07-28 12:08:39 AM

puffy999: So when does the world start punishing, you know, American war criminals?


"American war criminals" is an oxymoron.

God is on our side.
 
2013-07-28 12:11:15 AM

you are a puppet: Is it safe?


Came here for this line, leaving satisfied.
 
2013-07-28 12:11:52 AM
cretinbob:
i112.photobucket.com


What if, indeed.

i112.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-28 12:12:58 AM
puffy999: So when does the world start punishing, you know, American war criminals?

We won, we can't be war criminals.
 
2013-07-28 12:18:18 AM

Vectron: Simon Wiesenthal Center is about the money. They have a cozy thing going but have to find a "Nazi" once in while to look legit.


You mean there is a jewish group out there running a system with little practical benefit but rakes in tons of cash for themselves, and gets supporters by using guilt? I don't believe it!
 
2013-07-28 12:19:50 AM
I'll pay attention, subby. I'm quite an apt pupil.
 
2013-07-28 12:20:24 AM
True story. I guy I knew who's father was a post war German immigrant said that a group of them met regularly in a moderate sized Canadian city. Fairly large German community in said city.
The father went to one social gathering where an elderly woman was treated with great respect and honor. The woman was the wife of a high ranking Nazi officer in Hitlers inner circle.
The gossip was that it was either Himmler, Goering or Goebbels wife.

/just passing on what I was told by a fairly reliable source.
// also, a neighbour of mine in the same city and time period was a U-boat commander. He was proud of his war record. I did not judge him for being honest.
/// a teacher I had in the early 70's was a member of the Chech underground, dispatched several nazis with his knife. We only found this out by trying to distract him from teaching us geography
/// the more you know
 
2013-07-28 12:22:21 AM
For the folks who think that these are just poor old men...watch who comes out for their funerals...

In fairness, this goes for the monsters that my mother's people put in charge of things too. Genocide doesn't have a statute of limitations. It's not about revenge, it's about holding them responsible, and not making them creatures of pity. It's about making them face what they've done. Plain and simple. It won't reach some, but as a society and a circle of societies, how we face these horrors, drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Never again" is important. As important today as it was then. Ethnic cleansing is still an issue. It is still going on. And not just in Africa, not just in out of the way nations, but in Europe and the whole situation in Georgia, just recently, was based on folks who figured that if they just exterminated their neighbors, everything would be fine. Mind you, the Ossetians called on the Bolsheviks to help them NOT be exterminated way back, and again, after Georgia split, folks figured that it was still a good option.

Tell yourselves, O ye defenders of the poor downtrodden monsters, that it's been too long. Then look into the faces of those who survived. Look into the faces of their children, and their children's children, who would never have been if these pieces of kuso had their way.

We can ignore it, because it's more convenient. But sometimes, it's a matter of standing up and saying, "No. No more."
 
2013-07-28 12:25:23 AM
Jeebus. Reading my own post seems too bizarre to be true. But it is.
/ forgot the fourth slashy above.
 
2013-07-28 12:26:09 AM

The One True TheDavid: vygramul:

These people need to be hunted down and locked up at German expense. They shouldn't be allowed to live out their remaining 1-20 years in peace. (Seriously, how would you feel if one of them made it to 115? Likely, they have 1-7 years.)

Unfortunately it also illustrates the claim that "the Jews are terribly vindictive." And ya gotta admit it is pretty vindictive. "We will hunt you to the ends of the Earth for the rest of your lives!"


Of course, that's virtually the motto of any US law enforcement agency. But for some reason, this somehow reflect on Jews worse? Heck, we have "cold-case" files that are almost fetishized. Anyone who thinks that Jews are somehow unique in this regard is beyond saving to begin with.

This serves multiple purposes, not the least of which is deterrence.

Deterring what, exactly? Another "race"-based series of government-organized mass murders? Does the word "Rwanda" mean anything to you?


False dichotomy. You may as well say that the penalty for smoking marijuana doesn't deter anyone because there are some people who smoke marijuana. Yet I know people who WOULD smoke it IF it were legal to do so.

This is a fundamental economics concept: incentives matter. So, at the margins, SOMEONE is deterred, even if it wasn't someone in Rwanda.
 
2013-07-28 12:26:48 AM

Mock26: Leave them alone.  They have all atoned for their sins and are doing a ton of good correcting grammar on the internet!


www.bitlogic.com
 
2013-07-28 12:28:50 AM

Amos Quito: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Who said they wanted "justice"?

/Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable


Glad to see you in another Israel thread.

Oh, wait...
 
2013-07-28 12:33:29 AM

puffy999: So when does the world start punishing, you know, American war criminals?


There's a reason Dönitz didn't get sentenced for unrestricted submarine warfare.
 
2013-07-28 12:33:38 AM

hubiestubert: For the folks who think that these are just poor old men...watch who comes out for their funerals...

In fairness, this goes for the monsters that my mother's people put in charge of things too. Genocide doesn't have a statute of limitations. It's not about revenge, it's about holding them responsible, and not making them creatures of pity. It's about making them face what they've done. Plain and simple. It won't reach some, but as a society and a circle of societies, how we face these horrors, drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Never again" is important. As important today as it was then. Ethnic cleansing is still an issue. It is still going on. And not just in Africa, not just in out of the way nations, but in Europe and the whole situation in Georgia, just recently, was based on folks who figured that if they just exterminated their neighbors, everything would be fine. Mind you, the Ossetians called on the Bolsheviks to help them NOT be exterminated way back, and again, after Georgia split, folks figured that it was still a good option.

Tell yourselves, O ye defenders of the poor downtrodden monsters, that it's been too long. Then look into the faces of those who survived. Look into the faces of their children, and their children's children, who would never have been if these pieces of kuso had their way.

We can ignore it, because it's more convenient. But sometimes, it's a matter of standing up and saying, "No. No more."


If you think busting a 90+ year old for ANY crime has some deterrant factor, you are sorely mistaken.

You say it is about holding people responsible and not revenge, but what other purpose does punishment here serve? I still see nothing but revenge.
 
2013-07-28 12:35:37 AM

vygramul: Amos Quito: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Who said they wanted "justice"?

/Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Glad to see you in another Israel thread.

Oh, wait...



Wait for what, vygramul?
 
2013-07-28 12:35:40 AM

Dumski: True story. I guy I knew who's father was a post war German immigrant said that a group of them met regularly in a moderate sized Canadian city. Fairly large German community in said city.
The father went to one social gathering where an elderly woman was treated with great respect and honor. The woman was the wife of a high ranking Nazi officer in Hitlers inner circle.
The gossip was that it was either Himmler, Goering or Goebbels wife.

/just passing on what I was told by a fairly reliable source.
// also, a neighbour of mine in the same city and time period was a U-boat commander. He was proud of his war record. I did not judge him for being honest.
/// a teacher I had in the early 70's was a member of the Chech underground, dispatched several nazis with his knife. We only found this out by trying to distract him from teaching us geography
/// the more you know


Goebbels' wife died with Goebbels at the bunker. They didn't have sufficient fuel to burn them beyond recognition and were easily identified.
 
2013-07-28 12:39:20 AM
If your hobby is chasing mass murderers, go to Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Congo, Kosovo, China or Cambodia.
 
2013-07-28 12:42:50 AM

Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Who said they wanted "justice"?

/Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Glad to see you in another Israel thread.

Oh, wait...


Wait for what, vygramul?


Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?

/Wait for it...
 
2013-07-28 12:43:25 AM
vygramul
and that's why I said "either". Whomever she was, she was revered.
 
2013-07-28 12:45:35 AM

Smackledorfer: hubiestubert: For the folks who think that these are just poor old men...watch who comes out for their funerals...

In fairness, this goes for the monsters that my mother's people put in charge of things too. Genocide doesn't have a statute of limitations. It's not about revenge, it's about holding them responsible, and not making them creatures of pity. It's about making them face what they've done. Plain and simple. It won't reach some, but as a society and a circle of societies, how we face these horrors, drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Never again" is important. As important today as it was then. Ethnic cleansing is still an issue. It is still going on. And not just in Africa, not just in out of the way nations, but in Europe and the whole situation in Georgia, just recently, was based on folks who figured that if they just exterminated their neighbors, everything would be fine. Mind you, the Ossetians called on the Bolsheviks to help them NOT be exterminated way back, and again, after Georgia split, folks figured that it was still a good option.

Tell yourselves, O ye defenders of the poor downtrodden monsters, that it's been too long. Then look into the faces of those who survived. Look into the faces of their children, and their children's children, who would never have been if these pieces of kuso had their way.

We can ignore it, because it's more convenient. But sometimes, it's a matter of standing up and saying, "No. No more."

If you think busting a 90+ year old for ANY crime has some deterrant factor, you are sorely mistaken.

You say it is about holding people responsible and not revenge, but what other purpose does punishment here serve? I still see nothing but revenge.


Then you haven't ever had to deal with skinheads or other of their ilk then. I've got some lovely scars from a skin and a knife who thought he was doing his "duty." This is not just about the men who committed atrocity, it's about delivering a message to those who hold them as heroes.

These men are heroes to these folks. The Holocaust in their eyes was "a good start." It still is. The Ultranationalists in Japan have a similar mindset, and in my mother's land, it's JUST as disturbing, and more so, that the government in Japan glosses over the atrocities committed. At least Germany tries to come to grips with their history--even though, in all my time in Germany, I never met a single German who admitted that anyone in their family was a part of the regime, or even had family who fought. This is not just about justice for the families, to see the men and women who committed atrocities brought to court, and given their day in court. That is the difference. These monsters, who consigned so many to die in camps, to be killed in the streets, to be buried en mass, see their day in court. Because we are societies governed by law. This about serving the law. That justice. Not simply dragged out into the street and shot, not quietly assassinated, but to see them face the law, to see the faces of their accusers, and realize that they have failed.
 
2013-07-28 12:48:37 AM

Dumski: vygramul
and that's why I said "either". Whomever she was, she was revered.


I understood. I just wanted to eliminate one of the possibilities for you.
 
2013-07-28 12:48:52 AM

vygramul: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

Wait - are you proposing a statute of limitations on murder, or an age limit on murder, or both?

Because I can't agree those are reasonable. These people need to be hunted down and locked up at German expense. They shouldn't be allowed to live out their remaining 1-20 years in peace. (Seriously, how would you feel if one of them made it to 115? Likely, they have 1-7 years.) This serves multiple purposes, not the least of which is deterrence.

I might be willing to offer up some kind of plea deal amnesty for people who turn themselves in right now, complete with confession and details about their compatriots, escape, and other relevant information. In exchange, they get 5 years. Who knows? It's a gamble and they might get out to enjoy a few before they go.


Statute? No.
Age limit? No.
Statute in conjunction with age? Possibly.

Are you SERIOUSLY arguing deterrence when talking about aging concentration camp guards who are so old they likely can't remember what they ate for breakfast by the time sunset rolls around; and thinking "By god, we can't let these guys get away; it will set such a bad example for future concentration camp guards who might want to do likewise!!" Legality and illegality in the context of genocide is laughable--it only becomes illegal if your side loses AND if you get caught AND if the other side can prove you were in a position to be able to meaningfully refuse your orders. Do you really think that punishing an elderly Nazi prison camp executioner will deter someone convinced of the righteousness of killing all the Tutsis or Sunnis he can find in case someday he MIGHT be on the wrong side of history? Deterrence is the least, and worst, argument you could possibly make for tracking down and punishing these guys.

Sooner or later, the last of the Nazis will die, and some if not most will have escaped justice. Jews must accept this, much as survivors of the Armenian genocide must accept they will likely never see justice for their dead loved ones, and survivors of the Holodomor will never see complete justice, and survivors of the Rwandan genocide, and survivors of the Serbian genocide, and on and on and on. Nobody is suggesting (okay, I"m sure someone is, but it isn't me) that we say "Oh, these poor old men, let them die in peace," but at some point there must be a realization that time is not on the side of vengeance. At what point do the Jews become like the Inquisition of old, digging up defunct (i.e., dead) heretics and dispossessing their heirs because of past misdeeds?

If the fear is that "these guys will get away with heinous crimes"--guess what. They already did. It has been sixty or seventy years since their crimes against humanity and any "justice" exacted now is merely token justice exacted in the names of victims likewise seventy years in their graves. There is no way to un-write time and get justice for those victims; nor is there at this point in their lives a way to make these criminals pay in any meaningful way for what they did. Does that mean there is no justice in the world? Is that tantamount to letting all murderers get away with murder? Do we have to, as you suggest, create a statute of limitations on murder or an age limit on who can be prosecuted? If you feel that letting a few old men in highly unusual situations like this not be prosecuted is equivalent to letting ALL old men get away with murder, then I'm sorry for you.

There's no reason to let these men off the hook. The world should know what crimes they are alleged to have committed, if it can be shown. But what justice is served, no matter how terrible the crime, by trying 90-year old men for crimes 70 years past, except an abstract sense that "justice must be done"? And if that's not sufficient, then ask yourself this: there is no place they can be safely kept in prison, so they must be kept in a hospital. Is that justice, given the nature of their crime? There is no country willing in some cases to try them, so they must be tried in nations unrelated to their crime. Is that justice for the victims? IS this about justice, or is it only vengeance?
 
2013-07-28 12:50:29 AM

vygramul: Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Who said they wanted "justice"?

/Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Glad to see you in another Israel thread.

Oh, wait...


Wait for what, vygramul?

Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?



???


vygramul
:   /Wait for it...


Wait for what, vygramul?
 
2013-07-28 12:56:49 AM
Just once I'd like to see an obituary: Gerhardt Katzenjammer: beloved husband, father, and grandfather; fugitive war criminal. After all, what's he got to lose?
 
2013-07-28 01:01:05 AM

Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???


Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

 
2013-07-28 01:03:29 AM
If we're talking about someone who was 17 when they were drafted into the Wermacht and spent their tour unloading trucks, I say fine; leave them alone.  Chances are they weren't left with much choice.

But the idea that people who committed crimes against humanity shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes becuase of their age is complete horseshiat.  If they're the person responsible, hold them accountable.
 
2013-07-28 01:05:04 AM
Bonus points if he's your grandpa.
 
2013-07-28 01:07:07 AM

Gyrfalcon: But what justice is served, no matter how terrible the crime, by trying 90-year old men for crimes 70 years past, except an abstract sense that "justice must be done"?



70 years?

Hell, that's nothin'. Try 2,400.
 
2013-07-28 01:09:14 AM
I hate it when a thread about WWII sends me curiously off to wikipedia and I spend like three hours looking up different Nazis and can't even remember where I started at.

Anyway, if they can find and positively ID real living Nazis and SS members who committed crimes and aren't in rest homes suffering from dementia then I say go after them. At this stage though, there aren't many living witnesses left to testify and corroborate, and ID the accused. Not that the SS left many alive to begin with, I just think this page is nearly turned.
 
2013-07-28 01:12:43 AM

vygramul: Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???

Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable


Are you into "hate", vygramul?

Do you get a charge out of it? Like smoking the ol' crackpipe?
 
2013-07-28 01:19:41 AM
I can see their point. Basically, they're trying to send a message, loud and clear, that after over a thousand years of pogroms, persecutions, expulsions, blood libels, anti-Semitic riots, genocides, and just general "Kill the Jewish guy because Christ something..." that anyone, repeat, ANYONE, starting that shiat again will get put on trial, if they're a hundred years old, if they're in a foreign country, if they're on the dark side of the friggin' moon, and their family and friends will know exactly what they did and when. If the guy's dead, hell, they'll put his zombie ass on trial, fark him over, and bury him and dig him up again just to make the frigging point: STOP farkING WITH THE JEWS.
 
2013-07-28 01:21:32 AM

BokerBill: Just once I'd like to see an obituary: Gerhardt Katzenjammer: beloved husband, father, and grandfather; fugitive war criminal. After all, what's he got to lose?



www.nndb.com

Hey!

That Wiesenthal bunch is TOUGH!

After the sack the Nazi, they go after his family - to the third and fourth generation, even!
 
2013-07-28 01:25:16 AM

baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.


I have been studying military history for many years, one thing I try to do is draw the line between right and wrong. I think those who are wasting time and energy hunting these men down have a right too. However in my opinion its a waste of time and money.
I once had this argument in a jewish thread and it was clear they will continue to hunt as long as there is money to do or they can declare them all dead. On an interesting twist the only reason they contacted me because I have one of the first 10 english printed copies of Mein Kampf, they were interested in buying it only to burn it. And people wonder why History repeats itself. Much as I would love to see these men sent to trial, hanged and bodies burned, but whose going to pay for it? Sure put a 90+ something yr old guy on trial, he won't care because he already had a family, grand kids if not great by now and is almost at death. No justice will be served, what they need to do is stop wasting money searching for guys who got away with it and make sure the history doesn't repeat itself.

/then again tyrants will always exist, some get away with it without anyone being able to charge them with a crime
 
2013-07-28 01:27:59 AM

Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???

Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Are you into "hate", vygramul?

Do you get a charge out of it? Like smoking the ol' crackpipe?


I'm not really able to relate to your drug experiences, nor to your particular brand of hate.

But it comes as no surprise you get a rush out of it.
 
2013-07-28 01:41:12 AM
I wish they'd at least catch the Nazis that ordered the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
 
2013-07-28 01:43:34 AM
Matlock?Mi.dailymail.co.ukencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-28 01:54:21 AM

vygramul: Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???

Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Are you into "hate", vygramul?

Do you get a charge out of it? Like smoking the ol' crackpipe?

I'm not really able to relate to your drug experiences, nor to your particular brand of hate.

But it comes as no surprise you get a rush out of it.



Oh, no indeed, vygramul. Hate is a very self-destructive emotion - regardless of the target.

Here's an experiment you can try at home:

Pick someone - ANYONE that you hate, and think about them... old or young, dead or alive, doesn't matter.

Now, build all of that anger, all of that rage, all that FURY into a seething, frothing, drooling crescendo - and HOLD IT! Milk it for all it's worth - feel it sucking the life-force from your body...

Now, who do you think suffered the ill-effects of your HATE?

You, or the object of your hatred?
 
2013-07-28 01:56:27 AM
They already got the major players in the holocaust, these people they're going after now seem like a stretch if you ask me. Some kid who was a guard at some detention camp was hardly in a position to do anything about what was going on there. War was different back then, civilians getting killed was pretty common, when you carpet bomb or lob artillery shells at a town, you're not just killing soldiers. These people need to learn how to let shiat go.
 
2013-07-28 01:56:42 AM
CruiserTwelve
I wish they'd at least catch the Nazis that ordered the bombing of Pearl Harbor.


Is this a joke or an alternative history suggestion?
 
2013-07-28 02:05:29 AM

Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???

Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Are you into "hate", vygramul?

Do you get a charge out of it? Like smoking the ol' crackpipe?

I'm not really able to relate to your drug experiences, nor to your particular brand of hate.

But it comes as no surprise you get a rush out of it.


Oh, no indeed, vygramul. Hate is a very self-destructive emotion - regardless of the target.

Here's an experiment you can try at home:

Pick someone - ANYONE that you hate, and think about them... old or young, dead or alive, doesn't matter.

Now, build all of that anger, all of that rage, all that FURY into a seething, frothing, drooling crescendo - and HOLD IT! Milk it for all it's worth - feel it sucking the life-force from your body...

Now, who do you think suffered the ill-effects of your HATE?

You, or the object of your hatred?


That's rich.
 
2013-07-28 02:10:03 AM

hubiestubert: Smackledorfer: hubiestubert: For the folks who think that these are just poor old men...watch who comes out for their funerals...

In fairness, this goes for the monsters that my mother's people put in charge of things too. Genocide doesn't have a statute of limitations. It's not about revenge, it's about holding them responsible, and not making them creatures of pity. It's about making them face what they've done. Plain and simple. It won't reach some, but as a society and a circle of societies, how we face these horrors, drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Never again" is important. As important today as it was then. Ethnic cleansing is still an issue. It is still going on. And not just in Africa, not just in out of the way nations, but in Europe and the whole situation in Georgia, just recently, was based on folks who figured that if they just exterminated their neighbors, everything would be fine. Mind you, the Ossetians called on the Bolsheviks to help them NOT be exterminated way back, and again, after Georgia split, folks figured that it was still a good option.

Tell yourselves, O ye defenders of the poor downtrodden monsters, that it's been too long. Then look into the faces of those who survived. Look into the faces of their children, and their children's children, who would never have been if these pieces of kuso had their way.

We can ignore it, because it's more convenient. But sometimes, it's a matter of standing up and saying, "No. No more."

If you think busting a 90+ year old for ANY crime has some deterrant factor, you are sorely mistaken.

You say it is about holding people responsible and not revenge, but what other purpose does punishment here serve? I still see nothing but revenge.

Then you haven't ever had to deal with skinheads or other of their ilk then. I've got some lovely scars from a skin and a knife who thought he was doing his "duty." This is not just about the men who committed atrocity, it's about delivering a message to those who hold them as heroes.

These men are heroes to these folks. The Holocaust in their eyes was "a good start." It still is. The Ultranationalists in Japan have a similar mindset, and in my mother's land, it's JUST as disturbing, and more so, that the government in Japan glosses over the atrocities committed. At least Germany tries to come to grips with their history--even though, in all my time in Germany, I never met a single German who admitted that anyone in their family was a part of the regime, or even had family who fought. This is not just about justice for the families, to see the men and women who committed atrocities brought to court, and given their day in court. That is the difference. These monsters, who consigned so many to die in camps, to be killed in the streets, to be buried en mass, see their day in court. Because we are societies governed by law. This about serving the law. That justice. Not simply dragged out into the street and shot, not quietly assassinated, but to see them face the law, to see the faces of their accusers, and realize that they have failed.


That entire post, in addition to baseless assumptions, has nothing to do with what I said.

If your new logic is the 'rule of law' line, I think you may find yourself capable of thinking up dozens of areas in which strict enforcement doesn't serve the society of laws.

I am not saying what nazis did was not an atrocity, but if your only argument is the same one that people use in anti-drug discussions or anti-immigrant rants, then you have at the very least failed to make a good case. "it's the law" isn't good enough (well, at least not if you admit it isn't good enough in any other area).
 
2013-07-28 02:21:12 AM

sillydragon: I'm shocked how long it took for an Apt Pupil reference to show up. Fark, you're slipping! Though, I suppose it is Saturday night, and most people are seriously drunk by now... :)


Ninth post says don't you forget about me...
 
2013-07-28 02:33:32 AM

Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: vygramul: Amos Quito: Oh, we didn't have to wait long for you to white-knight Nazis. Poor things are hated. What did they ever do to deserve it?


???

Amos Quito: /Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Are you into "hate", vygramul?

Do you get a charge out of it? Like smoking the ol' crackpipe?

I'm not really able to relate to your drug experiences, nor to your particular brand of hate.

But it comes as no surprise you get a rush out of it.


Oh, no indeed, vygramul. Hate is a very self-destructive emotion - regardless of the target.

Here's an experiment you can try at home:

Pick someone - ANYONE that you hate, and think about them... old or young, dead or alive, doesn't matter.

Now, build all of that anger, all of that rage, all that FURY into a seething, frothing, drooling crescendo - and HOLD IT! Milk it for all it's worth - feel it sucking the life-force from your body...

Now, who do you think suffered the ill-effects of your HATE?

You, or the object of your hatred?


Look, I'm not interested in your hobbies. I don't need to hate an entire group of people. My life doesn't revolve around spreading hate of someone else like some neo-nazi without the courage to stand for what he believes.

Nope. I got better things to do - like point and laugh. Laughter is much better than hate.
 
2013-07-28 02:41:47 AM

Smackledorfer: Smackledorfer: hubiestubert: For the folks who think that these are just poor old men...watch who comes out for their funerals...

In fairness, this goes for the monsters that my mother's people put in charge of things too. Genocide doesn't have a statute of limitations. It's not about revenge, it's about holding them responsible, and not making them creatures of pity. It's about making them face what they've done. Plain and simple. It won't reach some, but as a society and a circle of societies, how we face these horrors, drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Never again" is important. As important today as it was then. Ethnic cleansing is still an issue. It is still going on. And not just in Africa, not just in out of the way nations, but in Europe and the whole situation in Georgia, just recently, was based on folks who figured that if they just exterminated their neighbors, everything would be fine. Mind you, the Ossetians called on the Bolsheviks to help them NOT be exterminated way back, and again, after Georgia split, folks figured that it was still a good option.

Tell yourselves, O ye defenders of the poor downtrodden monsters, that it's been too long. Then look into the faces of those who survived. Look into the faces of their children, and their children's children, who would never have been if these pieces of kuso had their way.

We can ignore it, because it's more convenient. But sometimes, it's a matter of standing up and saying, "No. No more."

If you think busting a 90+ year old for ANY crime has some deterrant factor, you are sorely mistaken.

You say it is about holding people responsible and not revenge, but what other purpose does punishment here serve? I still see nothing but revenge.

Then you haven't ever had to deal with skinheads or other of their ilk then. I've got some lovely scars from a skin and a knife who thought he was doing his "duty." This is not just about the men who committed atrocity, it's about delivering a message to those who hold them as heroes.

These men are heroes to these folks. The Holocaust in their eyes was "a good start." It still is. The Ultranationalists in Japan have a similar mindset, and in my mother's land, it's JUST as disturbing, and more so, that the government in Japan glosses over the atrocities committed. At least Germany tries to come to grips with their history--even though, in all my time in Germany, I never met a single German who admitted that anyone in their family was a part of the regime, or even had family who fought. This is not just about justice for the families, to see the men and women who committed atrocities brought to court, and given their day in court. That is the difference. These monsters, who consigned so many to die in camps, to be killed in the streets, to be buried en mass, see their day in court. Because we are societies governed by law. This about serving the law. That justice. Not simply dragged out into the street and shot, not quietly assassinated, but to see them face the law, to see the faces of their accusers, and realize that they have failed.


That entire post, in addition to baseless assumptions, has nothing to do with what I said.

If your new logic is the 'rule of law' line, I think you may find yourself capable of thinking up dozens of areas in which strict enforcement doesn't serve the society of laws.

I am not saying what nazis did was not an atrocity, but if your only argument is the same one that people use in anti-drug discussions or anti-immigrant rants, then you have at the very least failed to make a good case. "it's the law" isn't good enough (well, at least not if you admit it isn't good enough in any other area).


If you mean by "baseless assumptions" that you missed the point of addressing not just the rule of law, but the scores of those who hold these folks as heroes, then, yes, I will cop to making that assumption. It's not just about serving justice for those who were involved. It's not just for the families of those affected. It is about sending a message to those who still think it's not an entirely bad idea, because people have forgotten, and their cause is just enough.

Will it deter the most hardened? Not as well as one might hope, but the "faithful" aren't going to be swayed by simply the stick of hard time, as they see the glory in it. That is where the rule of law comes in. Not some awful crusade that elevates them to martyr status, as being so horrible, so much of a challenge that society must do terrible things to them. Nope. That is attractive to the faithful. They want the glory. Instead, it's a matter of simple justice, and locking them away, with no glory, no grand standing, but a simple matter of excising them the population, and letting them sit in their cells to ponder the "glory" in being left to be forgotten.

The assumptions on this issue are your own. It's not a matter of revenge, it's not a matter of nebulous justice, it's about removing the cancers from our society, and letting them starve on the vine. They want the glory. They want the martyrdom. They want to be so very special, so challenging, such powerful figures that they can attract even more attention. Locking them away, without much fanfare, that denies them that. Which in fairness is really what we should have done in the case of those attached to Al Qaida. Not given them a special prison, and all the attention, but simply tried them, locked them away, and let their movement die on the vine. Instead, we fed into the complex as being so special, so dangerous, so very unique, that we couldn't try them openly. THAT is the other extreme from simply ignoring them. Justice served, that is the middle road. Not special. Just something that needs to be excised from the body politic, and to move on.
 
2013-07-28 02:48:52 AM

cretinbob: [500memes.com image 500x500]


Then he would have victimized Romans not Jews.
 
2013-07-28 02:50:27 AM

vygramul: Because I can't agree those are reasonable. These people need to be hunted down and locked up at German expense. They shouldn't be allowed to live out their remaining 1-20 years in peace. (Seriously, how would you feel if one of them made it to 115? Likely, they have 1-7 years.) This serves multiple purposes, not the least of which is deterrence.


If they've made it to their 90s, they've as good as escaped. They probably won't know what's going on at the trial, nor that they're in jail (if they live long enough). The countless genocides, ethnic cleansings, and eugenics programs that have been carried out since the Nuremberg trials (some by Israel) prove that these trials have zero deterrence value.

This doesn't mean that war criminals shouldn't be put on trial, of course, but it gets a bit pointless when the crime in question was so long ago. I'd like to see the Wiesenthal centre go after people who've committed more recent atrocities, like the people involved in the massacres in Rwanda, Indonesia, or Yugoslavia. They could even look into that israeli eugenics program.
 
2013-07-28 02:58:20 AM

Xanlexian: cretinbob:
[i112.photobucket.com image 500x500]


What if, indeed.

[i112.photobucket.com image 292x720]


Seen quietly leaving the area:
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-07-28 03:06:05 AM
Stephen Lynch expresses most well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPPaKFJukDA
 
2013-07-28 03:20:03 AM

vygramul: Amos Quito: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Who said they wanted "justice"?

/Haters gonna' hate
//More hate for the Hate God
/// Insatiable

Glad to see you in another Israel thread.

Oh, wait...



I know you guys don't like him for impolitely pointing out all the ugly stuff that Israel is about, but I find him to be a nice offset for the shills and JIDF crazies that inevitably wind up in these threads.

He's right about the hate bit.  All the Zionists seem to have this hard on about being hated, and it translates to a lot of hate on their part, whether it is valid or not.
 
2013-07-28 03:29:45 AM

kg2095: cretinbob: [500memes.com image 500x500]

Then he would have victimized Romans not Jews.



While it was the the local Roman authorities that (apparently somewhat reluctantly) carried out the actual execution, wasn't it the Jewish authorities (the Pharisees) who set him up, and a bloodthirsty crowd that drove Pilate to "wash his hands" in exasperation?

Not religious..  but it's a fairly well known story.  If the Gospels are inaccurate, it would be really interesting to learn how.
 
2013-07-28 03:49:15 AM

frak21: kg2095: cretinbob: [500memes.com image 500x500]

Then he would have victimized Romans not Jews.


While it was the the local Roman authorities that (apparently somewhat reluctantly) carried out the actual execution, wasn't it the Jewish authorities (the Pharisees) who set him up, and a bloodthirsty crowd that drove Pilate to "wash his hands" in exasperation?

Not religious..  but it's a fairly well known story.  If the Gospels are inaccurate, it would be really interesting to learn how.


The Romans were they own masters. They chose to do the deed.
 
2013-07-28 04:08:29 AM
fark, you disappoint me.
www.thetvcritic.org
/if you want something done right...
 
2013-07-28 04:26:26 AM

kg2095: frak21: kg2095: cretinbob: [500memes.com image 500x500]

Then he would have victimized Romans not Jews.


While it was the the local Roman authorities that (apparently somewhat reluctantly) carried out the actual execution, wasn't it the Jewish authorities (the Pharisees) who set him up, and a bloodthirsty crowd that drove Pilate to "wash his hands" in exasperation?

Not religious..  but it's a fairly well known story.  If the Gospels are inaccurate, it would be really interesting to learn how.

The Romans were they own masters. They chose to do the deed.



I understand this, and I understand that Jesus being known as "King of the Jews" was reason enough for execution (because you don't want the Jews nationalizing and causing problems for the Romans), but as the story apparently goes, Pilate investigated, found Jesus to be no real threat, and went out of his way (including offering amnesty for one prisoner that the crowd picked) to avoid executing him.  Yet, the crowd cried out for Jesus's head and in doing so, Jesus's "own people" turned against him.

So, it looks like he would have been acquitted and gone on to institute reform in Judaism, but the Jewish authorities, in an effort to protect their own positions of privilege (which would have been threatened by reformation), wanted him out of the way and set him up so that the Romans really had no choice if they were going to keep the Jews placated.

Again, not religious or a bible scholar, but I've never gotten an adequate answer from any Jewish people I've had the opportunity to ask when the topic comes up.
 
2013-07-28 04:57:43 AM
Since I really don't believe in an afterlife, I don't feel even slightly bad about a murderer getting theirs in the end where the world can see it. They're old and weak and helpless? Well some of those attributes were probably applicable to their victims. I like when what goes around comes around.
 
fdr
2013-07-28 05:01:34 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?


No. They do it to deliver justice and keep the memory of those that died alive. Or, I suppose, we could forget justice and all that and save taxpayers a few bucks.
 
2013-07-28 05:01:50 AM
I am positive the old man who lives down the street from me was a nazi, but I live in Germany so there you go...
 
fdr
2013-07-28 05:26:42 AM

baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.


So if I murder 500 innocent people the day before I'm 90, I get to walk because you just don't see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.
 
fdr
2013-07-28 05:35:33 AM

Smackledorfer: NeedlesslyCanadian: baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.

Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Vengeance nothing. There isn't--and nor should there be--a statute of limitation on murder, crimes against humanity, etc. Just because they've eluded justice for 60-70 years, does not justify letting them off the hook.

So vengeance then?


No. Justice.
 
2013-07-28 05:37:43 AM
Wait- you mean if I find an old Nazi and turn him in, I win $30,810!? Unlike the lottery which has better odds, I could actually work to win this prize.
 
2013-07-28 05:45:09 AM
Meh.... When the people you're looking for are most likely drooling in a wheelchair in the corner of the dayroom at the local Old Folks Home, it's less about "justice", and more about people at the Simon Weisenthal Center realizing that they need to justify their own relevance if the paychecks are gonna keep rolling in.

There's a reason that movie themes quit using the 'Old Nazi Hiding in South America' thing back in the 80s, most people don't feel the need for "revenge" when there are almost no people left who even remember the events in question anymore...

Seriously everyone is either dead or has moved on.

Except the Jewish folk...

This seems to be their specialty.
 
2013-07-28 06:16:20 AM
Your 12-year-old son, 15-year-old daughter, and your wife of 20 years have all been found murdered in your home that's been robbed, stabbed to death when they interrupted the home intruder.  The police work the case hard, but nothing turns up.  A year passes.  Two years.  Are you over it?  Do you ask the police to call off the investigation?  Of course not.  5 years pass.  10.  At what point do you tell the police to put away the file and forget all about it?

Never, of course.  You could live another 30 or 40 or even 50 years, and still never forget that the person who murdered your family was never caught.  If you're a mentally healthy person you've moved on and built a new life for yourself, but you'd never forget.  It's not about vengeance, and it's not about perennial victim hood.  It's about justice, or more specifically, closure.  You've been the victim of a terrible crime, and the loop has been left open.  Most normal, sane people need that loop closed.

Those of you advocating some kind of statute of limitations on murder and genocide haven't thought this through.  Simple as that.  Put yourself in a victim's shoes, and then ask yourself honestly if you'd still be advocating letting them off the hook.  There are good reasons why murder has no statute of limitations.  Justice is served whether the perp is 20 or 90.  Yes, at 90 it's too little too late, but a little is better than none at all.  The only people who would say it's worthless are those people who are seeking vengeance and not justice, so I guess that tells us a little about what worldview filter advocates of limitations are putting this situation through.
 
2013-07-28 06:31:06 AM

Enemabag Jones: CruiserTwelve
I wish they'd at least catch the Nazis that ordered the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Is this a joke or an alternative history suggestion?


Forget it. He's rolling.
 
2013-07-28 06:59:38 AM

vygramul: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

Wait - are you proposing a statute of limitations on murder, or an age limit on murder, or both?

Because I can't agree those are reasonable. These people need to be hunted down and locked up at German expense. They shouldn't be allowed to live out their remaining 1-20 years in peace. (Seriously, how would you feel if one of them made it to 115? Likely, they have 1-7 years.) This serves multiple purposes, not the least of which is deterrence.

I might be willing to offer up some kind of plea deal amnesty for people who turn themselves in right now, complete with confession and details about their compatriots, escape, and other relevant information. In exchange, they get 5 years. Who knows? It's a gamble and they might get out to enjoy a few before they go.


Israel did not extradite Salomon Morel due to statute of limitations.  I'm not sure how these would be any different.
 
2013-07-28 07:03:05 AM

karmachameleon: Your 12-year-old son, 15-year-old daughter, and your wife of 20 years have all been found murdered in your home that's been robbed, stabbed to death when they interrupted the home intruder.  The police work the case hard, but nothing turns up.  A year passes.  Two years.  Are you over it?  Do you ask the police to call off the investigation?  Of course not.  5 years pass.  10.  At what point do you tell the police to put away the file and forget all about it?

Never, of course.  You could live another 30 or 40 or even 50 years, and still never forget that the person who murdered your family was never caught.  If you're a mentally healthy person you've moved on and built a new life for yourself, but you'd never forget.  It's not about vengeance, and it's not about perennial victim hood.  It's about justice, or more specifically, closure.  You've been the victim of a terrible crime, and the loop has been left open.  Most normal, sane people need that loop closed.

Those of you advocating some kind of statute of limitations on murder and genocide haven't thought this through.  Simple as that.  Put yourself in a victim's shoes, and then ask yourself honestly if you'd still be advocating letting them off the hook.  There are good reasons why murder has no statute of limitations.  Justice is served whether the perp is 20 or 90.  Yes, at 90 it's too little too late, but a little is better than none at all.  The only people who would say it's worthless are those people who are seeking vengeance and not justice, so I guess that tells us a little about what worldview filter advocates of limitations are putting this situation through.


I'm not saying they shouldn't be brought to justice, but if 40-50 years has gone by and you're still needing closure then I would argue that you have mental health issues. It's as bad as these cases where the killer is caught right away, and 20-30 years later their loved ones are still showing up to the persons parole hearings talking about how a day doesn't go by where they're not overcome with grief over their loss. Sorry but if you haven't gotten over the death of a loved one after 20+ years, then you need to be seeing a psychiatrist.
 
2013-07-28 07:21:54 AM
Can they prove these guys committed atrocities just because they were Nazis? Our soldiers committed some pretty sick shiat when we were in Viet Nam. Should we round up all Viet Nam vets?
 
HKW
2013-07-28 07:35:43 AM

NeedlesslyCanadian: baufan2005: Sorry, they may have committed unspeakable evil at one point but I just dont see the point in putting men in their 90's in prison.

Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.


Vengeance nothing. There isn't--and nor should there be--a statute of limitation on murder, crimes against humanity, etc. Just because they've eluded justice for 60-70 years, does not justify letting them off the hook.


Their "crimes" is what we say say they are --  since we won the war and all.   Lots of 'attrocities' occur in war, but since we won, we get to choose which ones are punishable.   For example, In 1943, in the pivotal Atlantic convoy battle of ONS-5 vs wolfpacks, U-125 was rammed by an escort in thick fog.   The crew of the sub scuttled and abandoned the ship.  The escort asked permission to retrieve the surviving crew bobbing in the cold water.   "Not approved to pick up survivors" was the reply.
Since 'we' won the war, Lieutenant Commander Robert Sherwood (the man who sent that order) gets to relax in his rocking chair and die an honorable & brave serviceman who was forced to make hard life & death decisions in critical times under combat conditions.
Had Germany won the war, the Max Fritzmann center would be issuing a bounty for the capture of war criminal Robert Sherwood who refused aid & allowed survivors to die contrary to customary international law.
Ironically, at the Nuremberg trials, This exact same charge - not picking up survivors of a shipwreck - was one of the many directed against Dornitz.
 
2013-07-28 07:54:02 AM
ReapTheChaos: I'm not saying they shouldn't be brought to justice, but if 40-50 years has gone by and you're still needing closure then I would argue that you have mental health issues.

This sort of argument structure is generally used by people who are ashamed of what they believe. I'm not racist, but... I'm not homophobic, but... I don't support suicide bombing, but... I don't cheat on my taxes, but... I don't think it's ok to drink drive, but...

Be a little more honest. Don't use the 'but'. If your position is untenable or morally reprehensible, just let that be up-front and evident.

/I don't mean to be a jackass, but...
 
2013-07-28 08:25:14 AM

ReapTheChaos: I'm not saying they shouldn't be brought to justice, but if 40-50 years has gone by and you're still needing closure then I would argue that you have mental health issues. It's as bad as these cases where the killer is caught right away, and 20-30 years later their loved ones are still showing up to the persons parole hearings talking about how a day doesn't go by where they're not overcome with grief over their loss. Sorry but if you haven't gotten over the death of a loved one after 20+ years, then you need to be seeing a psychiatrist.


Maybe so, but you know what?  It's never happened to me, so I can't imagine what it's like to walk in their shoes.  Hopefully, neither can you.  So until we have some solid ground to stand on regarding this topic, I'd rather not go around judging how people "should" handle their grief and loss, even decades later.

I'm betting both you and I would go to parole hearings ourselves.  It takes quite a saint to forgive the murderer of a loved one - I know there are people who do it, but from what I can tell they're few and far between.  More power to them, I'm sure it brings them peace (and that's what forgiveness is really for anyway; not for the offender but for the offended), but I doubt I could be that person.  Could you?
 
2013-07-28 08:50:08 AM

karmachameleon: Your 12-year-old son, 15-year-old daughter, and your wife of 20 years have all been found murdered in your home that's been robbed, stabbed to death when they interrupted the home intruder.  The police work the case hard, but nothing turns up.  A year passes.  Two years.  Are you over it?  Do you ask the police to call off the investigation?  Of course not.  5 years pass.  10.  At what point do you tell the police to put away the file and forget all about it?


At some point, the guy who murdered this hypothetical family has become a doddering old man who can't even wipe his own ass and barely remembers his own name. The guy who killed that family is long gone. All that's left is an old relic.

What to do ...?
 
2013-07-28 08:55:34 AM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: So when are the Mossad assassins going to face trial? If we're serious about justice and all.


Approves:
gfx.dagbladet.no

/mossad is a terrorist group
//fark em
///with a toilet brush
 
2013-07-28 09:09:08 AM

frak21: I know you guys don't like him for impolitely pointing out all the ugly stuff that Israel is about, but I find him to be a nice offset for the shills and JIDF crazies that inevitably wind up in these threads.

He's right about the hate bit.  All the Zionists seem to have this hard on about being hated, and it translates to a lot of hate on their part, whether it is valid or not.


No, I don't like him impolitely pointing out all the ugly things about Jews in threads that aren't about Israel and then claiming his only problem is with Israel.

As far as Israel goes, I may not be a big fan of israel - there is plenty objectively wrong with Israel. But deal with the reality of Israel and Fark will applaud you. Treat them as imaginary phantoms, evil in human fantasies, and Fark would have justified contempt for you.
 
2013-07-28 10:14:07 AM
I'd feel better about this if there were ANY efforts in the US to prosecute high-level financial criminals for acts causing widespread distress, poverty, and stress-related death to millions, as well as prosecution for businessmen and scientists who sign off on unsafe food, drink, pharmaceuticals and other consumer products.

How about protecting people NOW, not just going after the pawns of a foreign regime brought down a lifetime ago?  But then isn't it so that power confers immunity, and the war criminal is someone who no longer has power, if they ever had it at all?
 
2013-07-28 10:39:38 AM

karmachameleon: ReapTheChaos: I'm not saying they shouldn't be brought to justice, but if 40-50 years has gone by and you're still needing closure then I would argue that you have mental health issues. It's as bad as these cases where the killer is caught right away, and 20-30 years later their loved ones are still showing up to the persons parole hearings talking about how a day doesn't go by where they're not overcome with grief over their loss. Sorry but if you haven't gotten over the death of a loved one after 20+ years, then you need to be seeing a psychiatrist.

Maybe so, but you know what?  It's never happened to me, so I can't imagine what it's like to walk in their shoes.  Hopefully, neither can you.  So until we have some solid ground to stand on regarding this topic, I'd rather not go around judging how people "should" handle their grief and loss, even decades later.

I'm betting both you and I would go to parole hearings ourselves.  It takes quite a saint to forgive the murderer of a loved one - I know there are people who do it, but from what I can tell they're few and far between.  More power to them, I'm sure it brings them peace (and that's what forgiveness is really for anyway; not for the offender but for the offended), but I doubt I could be that person.  Could you?


So you're saying that people cant understand grief and loss unless they've had a loved one murdered? Death is death, whether it's murder, a heart attack or some kind of accident. I fail to see how they died really matters to the point I was making.
 
2013-07-28 10:47:14 AM

karmachameleon: Your 12-year-old son, 15-year-old daughter, and your wife of 20 years have all been found murdered in your home that's been robbed, stabbed to death when they interrupted the home intruder.  The police work the case hard, but nothing turns up.  A year passes.  Two years.  Are you over it?  Do you ask the police to call off the investigation?  Of course not.  5 years pass.  10.  At what point do you tell the police to put away the file and forget all about it?

Never, of course.  You could live another 30 or 40 or even 50 years, and still never forget that the person who murdered your family was never caught.  If you're a mentally healthy person you've moved on and built a new life for yourself, but you'd never forget.  It's not about vengeance, and it's not about perennial victim hood.  It's about justice, or more specifically, closure.  You've been the victim of a terrible crime, and the loop has been left open.  Most normal, sane people need that loop closed.

Those of you advocating some kind of statute of limitations on murder and genocide haven't thought this through.  Simple as that.  Put yourself in a victim's shoes, and then ask yourself honestly if you'd still be advocating letting them off the hook.  There are good reasons why murder has no statute of limitations.  Justice is served whether the perp is 20 or 90.  Yes, at 90 it's too little too late, but a little is better than none at all.  The only people who would say it's worthless are those people who are seeking vengeance and not justice, so I guess that tells us a little about what worldview filter advocates of limitations are putting this situation through.


Some of the farkers here would have you believe that 60+ years later they would all but hug the killer while forgiving him.
 
2013-07-28 10:55:22 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?


Yeah, how dare we pay to prosecute war criminals. I am sure they are totes sorry for what they did.
 
2013-07-28 11:12:30 AM

hubiestubert: Smackledorfer: Smackledorfer: hubiestubert: For the folks who think that these are just poor old men...watch who comes out for their funerals...

In fairness, this goes for the monsters that my mother's people put in charge of things too. Genocide doesn't have a statute of limitations. It's not about revenge, it's about holding them responsible, and not making them creatures of pity. It's about making them face what they've done. Plain and simple. It won't reach some, but as a society and a circle of societies, how we face these horrors, drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Never again" is important. As important today as it was then. Ethnic cleansing is still an issue. It is still going on. And not just in Africa, not just in out of the way nations, but in Europe and the whole situation in Georgia, just recently, was based on folks who figured that if they just exterminated their neighbors, everything would be fine. Mind you, the Ossetians called on the Bolsheviks to help them NOT be exterminated way back, and again, after Georgia split, folks figured that it was still a good option.

Tell yourselves, O ye defenders of the poor downtrodden monsters, that it's been too long. Then look into the faces of those who survived. Look into the faces of their children, and their children's children, who would never have been if these pieces of kuso had their way.

We can ignore it, because it's more convenient. But sometimes, it's a matter of standing up and saying, "No. No more."

If you think busting a 90+ year old for ANY crime has some deterrant factor, you are sorely mistaken.

You say it is about holding people responsible and not revenge, but what other purpose does punishment here serve? I still see nothing but revenge.

Then you haven't ever had to deal with skinheads or other of their ilk then. I've got some lovely scars from a skin and a knife who thought he was doing his "duty." This is not just about the men who committed atrocity, it's about delivering a message to those who hold them as heroes.

These men are heroes to these folks. The Holocaust in their eyes was "a good start." It still is. The Ultranationalists in Japan have a similar mindset, and in my mother's land, it's JUST as disturbing, and more so, that the government in Japan glosses over the atrocities committed. At least Germany tries to come to grips with their history--even though, in all my time in Germany, I never met a single German who admitted that anyone in their family was a part of the regime, or even had family who fought. This is not just about justice for the families, to see the men and women who committed atrocities brought to court, and given their day in court. That is the difference. These monsters, who consigned so many to die in camps, to be killed in the streets, to be buried en mass, see their day in court. Because we are societies governed by law. This about serving the law. That justice. Not simply dragged out into the street and shot, not quietly assassinated, but to see them face the law, to see the faces of their accusers, and realize that they have failed.

That entire post, in addition to baseless assumptions, has nothing to do with what I said.

If your new logic is the 'rule of law' line, I think you may find yourself capable of thinking up dozens of areas in which strict enforcement doesn't serve the society of laws.

I am not saying what nazis did was not an atrocity, but if your only argument is the same one that people use in anti-drug discussions or anti-immigrant rants, then you have at the very least failed to make a good case. "it's the law" isn't good enough (well, at least not if you admit it isn't good enough in any other area).

If you mean by "baseless assumptions" that you missed the point of addressing not just the rule of law, but the scores of those who hold these folks as heroes, then, yes, I will cop to making that assumption. It's not just about serving justice for those who were involved. It's not just for the families of those affected. It is about sending a message to those who still think it's not an entirely bad idea, because people have forgotten, and their cause is just enough.

Will it deter the most hardened? Not as well as one might hope, but the "faithful" aren't going to be swayed by simply the stick of hard time, as they see the glory in it. That is where the rule of law comes in. Not some awful crusade that elevates them to martyr status, as being so horrible, so much of a challenge that society must do terrible things to them. Nope. That is attractive to the faithful. They want the glory. Instead, it's a matter of simple justice, and locking them away, with no glory, no grand standing, but a simple matter of excising them the population, and letting them sit in their cells to ponder the "glory" in being left to be forgotten.

The assumptions on this issue are your own. It's not a matter of revenge, it's not a matter of nebulous justice, it's about removing the cancers from our society, and letting them starve on the vine. They want the glory. They want the martyrdom. They want to be so very special, so challenging, such powerful figures that they can attract even more attention. Locking them away, without much fanfare, that denies them that. Which in fairness is really what we should have done in the case of those attached to Al Qaida. Not given them a special prison, and all the attention, but simply tried them, locked them away, and let their movement die on the vine. Instead, we fed into the complex as being so special, so dangerous, so very unique, that we couldn't try them openly. THAT is the other extreme from simply ignoring them. Justice served, that is the middle road. Not special. Just something that needs to be excised from the body politic, and to move on.


If your argument wasn't about revenge you wouldn't have based your views on the personal damage racists have dealt to you. That screams revenge. You basically told me that my opinion doesn't count because I, by your baseless assumption, have never been one. Your default stance is that you have more right to an opinion than I, simply by way of our disagreeing; that anyone who disagrees with you cannot have your experiences and thus cannot hold their own views as valid.

You have that stance, but then you claim it is about justice and rule of law? Fine pair of blinders you have on.
 
2013-07-28 11:24:22 AM

BolshyGreatYarblocks: I'd feel better about this if there were ANY efforts in the US to prosecute high-level financial criminals for acts causing widespread distress, poverty, and stress-related death to millions, as well as prosecution for businessmen and scientists who sign off on unsafe food, drink, pharmaceuticals and other consumer products.


Hitler's mistake was in not forming a limited-liability corporation.
 
2013-07-28 11:43:22 AM
Smackledorfer: If your argument wasn't about revenge you wouldn't have based your views on the personal damage racists have dealt to you. That screams revenge. You basically told me that my opinion doesn't count because I, by your baseless assumption, have never been one. Your default stance is that you have more right to an opinion than I, simply by way of our disagreeing; that anyone who disagrees with you cannot have your experiences and thus cannot hold their own views as valid.

You have that stance, but then you claim it is about justice and rule of law? Fine pair of blinders you have on.


No, that was to put things into perspective. I have had dealings with the folks who revere the folks who we are talking about. Perspective, I know, is sometimes difficult, because it's easier to make broad generalizations, but sometimes you have to look at the larger picture, and understand the issue from more than simply one single angle.

Mind you, the shows where I have had to deal with skins and their ilk, were actually performed in a club where the owner was Jewish. The GM was Jewish. The floor manager was Jewish. And oddly enough, a quarter of the staff were African American. It sort of tickled us to take their money, because so few clubs would. Watching their discomfort with folks responsible for their safety being so low on their own personal genetic totem pole, that was sort to chucklesome. And in all honesty, despite really disliking these folks, it was a responsibility we took seriously. And while I managed to get stabbed one night, we garnered all manner of ill will and mild hurts defending these folks, because oddly enough, you don't pick and choose willy-nilly who you keep safe when they're under your roof.

Again, the assumptions thus far, are on your own end, and the blinders seem to be your own preconceptions. Justice and the law often are at odds. But if we want to call ourselves just societies, we don't toss out the rule of law, and concepts of justice because they get a bit irksome or difficult, and that really seems to be the thrust of things: it's just too long ago, and they're too old for it to matter. But it does matter. Not just to the families, not just to their progeny, or their communities, but also to the folks who revere these folks as heroes. It is sending a message that it will not stand, and that even though it was a while ago, folks have NOT forgotten. Those who forget the lessons of the past, are doomed to repeat them.

There are plenty of examples that folks are still willing to engage in just this sort of genocide, and, in fairness, we need to go after them as well. Not just in Eastern Europe, not just in Africa or Asia, but the message needs to be delivered that civilized folks will not stand for this. Sadly, this is not always the case, and often the UN seems content to think that strongly worded letters will suffice. Certainly in the case of Georgia, it took rolling out of tanks to get the message across, and still, the folks who instigated this particular pogrom won't even admit that they were carrying out a campaign started in the beginning decades of the last century.

It isn't just about Nazis. It comes down to addressing genocide, and ethnic cleansing, and holding folks accountable. To hold up their actions up not for the sake of revenge--which you seem obsessed with--but rather to show that these concepts have no place, and that they will not be allowed to prosper in simply killing off their "surplus" population, when those in excess are different and thus not rating standing as human in their minds. Reminding folks that they are indeed human and valued is part of that pesky law. Be that racial equality, religious equality, even those quirky homosexuals are all part of the human family, and that exterminating folks because they are different will not stand.

Revenge? I won't shed many a tear for many to be certain, but the important thing is to not simply to punish, but to set an example that society will not hold for this, and that those who revere these folks understand that. Understand that their time will not come again. We are failing at this in many places, but it is still the goal.
 
2013-07-28 11:48:29 AM

vygramul: BolshyGreatYarblocks: I'd feel better about this if there were ANY efforts in the US to prosecute high-level financial criminals for acts causing widespread distress, poverty, and stress-related death to millions, as well as prosecution for businessmen and scientists who sign off on unsafe food, drink, pharmaceuticals and other consumer products.

Hitler's mistake was in not forming a limited-liability corporation.


It really was a failing of the Fascists' assisted market model...
 
2013-07-28 11:57:39 AM

Tanukis_Parachute: I preferred the burbs over the serious one. The burbs is a seriously underrated comedy.


So much this.  Carrie Fisher's career did not tank after Star Wars as spectacularly as people say because she made this gem.
 
2013-07-28 12:03:04 PM

BroncoFan_17: Nazis are bad......but admit it, Detroit and Chicago could benefit from their presence for a few weeks.


fc06.deviantart.net

"I hate Illinois Nazis!"

 
2013-07-28 12:10:53 PM

hubiestubert: No, that was to put things into perspective.


Right, the perspective in which only those who have suffered pain equal or greater to yours can weigh in on a discussion about justice, and otherwise get dismissed entirely.

One minute you talk of justice and tell me that since I've never been stabbed like you I can't understand it.
Then you say it is justice because of the rule of law.
Now you admit that justice and rule of law are sometimes at odds, but that we as a nation cannot ever toss out rule of law.

You are all over the road, because you have replaced reason and logic with emotion.  I don't respect you any less for it, but it does nothing to bolster your argument.  Step back from this for a second.  Thus far you have failed to stick to a point; you respond to each of my posts by switching to a different tactic. You have made the discussion personal, about what you think my experiences are and why yours make your view somehow more valid.


If you honestly think a single wanna-be race criminal is deterred or shown whats-what by the continued nazi hunt, you are out of your mind.  For that to happen someone would have to thinking "gee, I'd like to murder some xxx, and I will definitely get away with it in the short term at least, but what will happen to me when I'm 95?" You aren't sending anyone any messages here.  Nobody thinks anyone has forgotten. Nobody thinks society will accept their potential fourth reich. What continued use of resources hunting 95 year old nazies does is waste resources that could be better applied elsewhere.

hubiestubert: revenge--which you seem obsessed with


The obsession is clearly yours. How can I be obsessed with revenge when by your own knowledge you are certain I've never been hurt by racism in my life? How can I be the one obsessed with revenge when I'm calling for the opposite of revenge, and you are calling for the spending of resources, no matter how great, to preserve the rule of law and justice, which you admit may or may not actually have meaning, in order to get justice for the victimized?  That is revenge if ever I looked at it. If you stopped filling your thoughts with emotions and assumptions about me, you might be capable of seeing that is all you've argued for in this thread, with the half-assed support of an extremely weak appeal to deterrence.
 
2013-07-28 12:40:23 PM

Smackledorfer: hubiestubert: No, that was to put things into perspective.

Right, the perspective in which only those who have suffered pain equal or greater to yours can weigh in on a discussion about justice, and otherwise get dismissed entirely.

One minute you talk of justice and tell me that since I've never been stabbed like you I can't understand it.
Then you say it is justice because of the rule of law.
Now you admit that justice and rule of law are sometimes at odds, but that we as a nation cannot ever toss out rule of law.

You are all over the road, because you have replaced reason and logic with emotion.  I don't respect you any less for it, but it does nothing to bolster your argument.  Step back from this for a second.  Thus far you have failed to stick to a point; you respond to each of my posts by switching to a different tactic. You have made the discussion personal, about what you think my experiences are and why yours make your view somehow more valid.

If you honestly think a single wanna-be race criminal is deterred or shown whats-what by the continued nazi hunt, you are out of your mind.  For that to happen someone would have to thinking "gee, I'd like to murder some xxx, and I will definitely get away with it in the short term at least, but what will happen to me when I'm 95?" You aren't sending anyone any messages here.  Nobody thinks anyone has forgotten. Nobody thinks society will accept their potential fourth reich. What continued use of resources hunting 95 year old nazies does is waste resources that could be better applied elsewhere.

hubiestubert: revenge--which you seem obsessed with


The obsession is clearly yours. How can I be obsessed with revenge when by your own knowledge you are certain I've never been hurt by racism in my life? How can I be the one obsessed with revenge when I'm calling for the opposite of revenge, and you are calling for the spending of resources, no matter how great, to preserve the rule of law and justice, which you admit may or may not actually have meaning, in order to get justice for the victimized?  That is revenge if ever I looked at it. If you stopped filling your thoughts with emotions and assumptions about me, you might be capable of seeing that is all you've argued for in this thread, with the half-assed support of an extremely weak appeal to deterrence.

The point is not my being stabbed, or suffered personally. The point is having dealt with the folks who revere this sort of symbol. And that's what they are at this point: symbols. This is where I think you've missed the point. Not the stabbing, not the suffering--cripes, it was nine stitches, and I've had worse trips to the hospital just from work related accidents. It is putting experience into perspective. Understanding these folks having dealt with them up close and personal. Conversations, and more.

You don't tear apart the symbol with revenge. That only makes those symbols stronger. More entrenched. Skins and their ilk LOVE to be special. They crave it. Their entire ethos is etched on that basis, and their scapegoats are the folks that they blame for not getting their due. They are willing to do terrible things in order to validate this, because otherwise they might have to admit that their own ills are of their own doing. The best way to do that is to NOT treat them as so special that they require extreme measures, but simple justice for their deeds. Their day in court, their day to defend their actions, and if found wanting, they serve their time for it.

Mind you, there ARE plenty of war criminals, and far more recent ones that also need to be addressed. And there is a particular lack of will on the part of many, because it's often difficult. Difficult and the law shouldn't be confused though.

That folks have harried and committed atrocity should be the issue. Not the age, nor the time passed. That we hold to the idea that their deeds are not acceptable, that they don't get a pass, and it comes down to not just deterrence--because skins and their ilk are not going to be swayed by the thought of hard time. Instead, you show that the basis of their uniqueness is false. Not them personally, but their actions are what have brought them down. They can claim that their cause is the issue, but you use the rule of law to address the actions. That the basis for their persecution is NOT simply their ideology or race, but that their actions are at the center.

People will hate. They will burn in their bellies for all sorts of reasons. The question is not about that hate, their ideology, but to hold their actions accountable. Man can hate for his entire life, preach all he wants about the terribleness of his particular bugbear, and you address each action. You disagree with their stand, then you address the speech in kind if so inclined. You address actions that harm with the rule of law, and take away their desperate cry that they are special, so special that they can ignore such petty concerns. Because that is the point. To take away these symbols, these rallying points. Not revenge, because these folks thrive on the thought. It only feeds into the thought that they are so special, so very right that they must be feared by those too weak to take the stand that they've chosen. You dismantle this idea that they are so special that they can act with impunity, and you, as in the societal you, do so to address that fact that their actions are the issue. Think what they want, but act upon it, and then society addresses those actions.
 
2013-07-28 12:49:50 PM
This entire mess should have been dealt with by 1950. Justice delayed is justice denied.
 
2013-07-28 12:54:26 PM
karmachameleon:
Those of you advocating some kind of statute of limitations on murder and genocide haven't thought this through.  Simple as that.  Put yourself in a victim's shoes, and then ask yourself honestly if you'd still be advocating letting them off the hook.  There are good reasons why murder has no statute of limitations.  Justice is served whether the perp is 20 or 90.  Yes, at 90 it's too little too late, but a little is better than none at all.  The only people who would say it's worthless are those people who are seeking vengeance and not justice, so I guess that tells us a little about what worldview filter advocates of limitations are putting this situation through.

Nobody is advocating anything, but something you don't understand is after the war was over there were organizations formed to collect as much information as possible. One man for example Simon Wiesenthal was a holocaust survivor and Jew. After the war he was one of the famous nazi hunters who tracked down quite a few and wrote numerous books. Now having read two of simon's books I later found out he has been discredited among other nazi hunters for having to many conflcting stories. Here's the problem, after WW2 evidence was collected not on a scale like we have today, back then records were destroyed by the germans in retreats and all you relied on were a few eye witnesses and testimony, most taken before the victims died.

Now look at the age, 90. When would he have been born? a typical nazi officer one who would give the orders to kill would of died around 1970s possibly 1980s at the very most. Just because the man is tied to the SS does not make him a cold bloody murder, in fact most fear the SS because they were some of the most fanatical and best combat troops in the world. While they took orders and performed them without question and many did kill civilians, war is war.

If you think most don't have any family effected think again, I lost more then half my family in Budapest during 1944/45.
 
2013-07-28 01:01:17 PM
Unless Hitler actually got away and is still around, at this point, I am perfectly willing to just let it go.  If we need any proof that these guys aren't really monsters, but just soldiers following orders, it is they have been able to lead productive lives abiding by the laws of whatever nation they ended up in for close to 70 years.

Besides, so much time has passed,  I think it would be impossible to give any of then a fair trial.
 
2013-07-28 01:01:42 PM

Mock26: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope:

So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.

But this is not vengeance.  It is justice.


Then please tell me what the difference is. Especially 68 years (and almost 3 months) later, after the Shoah definitively ended with the unconditional surrender of the Nazi regime, when the murderers you seek are 90-some years old.

And please don't hand me anything about "no statute of limitations for murder," unless you can prove that the law has never been used as an instrument of vengeance. Note that I'm not arguing that "justice" and revenge" can never coincide, only that hunting somebody to the ends of the Earth for almost 70 years sounds a bit too "dedicated" to be purely altruistic.

Nor am I saying that "the Jews" should not get revenge. I recognize revenge as valid in some cases where injury has been committed, and murdering millions of Jews for being Jews can hardly be construed as anything but. But don't be hypocritical: if justice were better served by letting them go free you still would not consider it. You don't hunt somebody down for 68 years to assure him that all is forgiven.

There's an old saying of varied attributions that "Revenge is a dish best served cold." 68 years is pretty cold alright. Such dedication!

The Nazis were also fanatically dedicated, in their case to the extermination of European Jewry: even when killing Jews proved to be a stupid diversion from the war effort, when the Soviet Army was well into the process of kicking the Nazis' asses back to Berlin and then some, they kept right ahead with what they called their just cause. They hated the Jews so much they kept hunting them down wherever they could reach for as long as they could; that they left any Jews alive when they cut and ran from the camps can only be an oversight, surely this was not done by the Führer's order. In the teeth of Stalin's army they kept murdering innocents. Surely anybody who calls hunting somebody down for 68 years "justice" has got to admire their dedication. "We will not rest until every last Enemy has been hunted down and 'treated appropriately,' even when there is no longer any practical benefit to doing so (if there ever was), even if our own friends stand back and shake their heads at what they call our insanity." At least unlike Hitler you see no need to hunt down every last Nazi even if it means the death of every last Jew, but then for 68 years you've been on the winning side.

Another thing: let's not forget that the Nazis too claimed their cause was just, that they were seeking justice on "the Jews" for all the alleged wrongs they'd committed against their people. (No I'm not saying they were correct, only pointing out that that's what they said.) Furthermore the Nazis said they aimed to deter any other (potential) enemy from committing injustice against the German nation and the Aryan race, that the signal example rendered unto the Jews should suffice. And yes I do mean to trace a faint family resemblance here, as I do elsewhere by pointing out that Zionism is a form of fascism. Granted I'd much rather live in today's Israel than Nazi Germany or even today's Iran, but that's just saying that I'd rather hammer my thumb than have my head bashed in.

And oh. I give you credit by assuming you're a Jew, with a just claim to revenge: someone who seeks to justify someone else's fanatical dedication to "justice" is mainly just nuts.


P.S. No I don't buy the "weak Hitler" theory. After swearing in print and in public for 25 years that he hated the Jews and wanted them all dead the Holocaust "just happened?" That's just plain silly, and Mommsen et al. should be ashamed of themselves. At least give that dedicated fanatic hate-filled creep credit where it's due: he swore to eliminate the Jews of Europe and he damn near did.
 
2013-07-28 01:16:35 PM

ACunningPlan: you are a puppet: Is it safe?

Yes it's safe. It's very safe. It's so safe you wouldn't believe it.


Came here for this exchange, left never wanting to go to the dentist again
 
2013-07-28 01:29:45 PM

Pumpernickel bread: Unless Hitler actually got away and is still around, at this point, I am perfectly willing to just let it go.  If we need any proof that these guys aren't really monsters, but just soldiers following orders, it is they have been able to lead productive lives abiding by the laws of whatever nation they ended up in for close to 70 years.

Besides, so much time has passed,  I think it would be impossible to give any of then a fair trial.


If you believe this, then there is no way you can enforce the Nuremberg Doctrine in the least. Following orders will become a legitimate defense to any inhuman act.
 
2013-07-28 01:46:25 PM

hardinparamedic: Pumpernickel bread: Unless Hitler actually got away and is still around, at this point, I am perfectly willing to just let it go.  If we need any proof that these guys aren't really monsters, but just soldiers following orders, it is they have been able to lead productive lives abiding by the laws of whatever nation they ended up in for close to 70 years.

Besides, so much time has passed,  I think it would be impossible to give any of then a fair trial.

If you believe this, then there is no way you can enforce the Nuremberg Doctrine in the least. Following orders will become a legitimate defense to any inhuman act.


Problem is following orders was the soldiers defense. Imagine if you are a soldier during ww2, and your commander says burn down this village or you will be shipped to the eastern front. You do what you have to do to survive. You cannot simply say no and to disobey orders is ground for mutiny and a general court marshal, during war time? you get hanged or sent to the eastern front which generally means you are dead either way. Who are you going to appeal to? Red cross? Nope. Everyone wants to blame everyone else, but if you are in command and give the orders if far different then having to be the peon who does the order.
 
2013-07-28 02:17:47 PM

Misconduc: hardinparamedic: Pumpernickel bread: Unless Hitler actually got away and is still around, at this point, I am perfectly willing to just let it go.  If we need any proof that these guys aren't really monsters, but just soldiers following orders, it is they have been able to lead productive lives abiding by the laws of whatever nation they ended up in for close to 70 years.

Besides, so much time has passed,  I think it would be impossible to give any of then a fair trial.

If you believe this, then there is no way you can enforce the Nuremberg Doctrine in the least. Following orders will become a legitimate defense to any inhuman act.

Problem is following orders was the soldiers defense. Imagine if you are a soldier during ww2, and your commander says burn down this village or you will be shipped to the eastern front. You do what you have to do to survive. You cannot simply say no and to disobey orders is ground for mutiny and a general court marshal, during war time? you get hanged or sent to the eastern front which generally means you are dead either way. Who are you going to appeal to? Red cross? Nope. Everyone wants to blame everyone else, but if you are in command and give the orders if far different then having to be the peon who does the order.


Ill take my chances with maybe getting hanged as a war criminal years down the road over getting lined up against the wall and shot today if Im ever in such a position.
 
2013-07-28 02:24:35 PM

Misconduc: Imagine if you are a soldier during ww2, and your commander says burn down this village or you will be shipped to the eastern front. You do what you have to do to survive. You cannot simply say no and to disobey orders is ground for mutiny and a general court marshal, during war time? you get hanged or sent to the eastern front which generally means you are dead either way.


This is actually incorrect. The people doing the killing in the SS were volunteers until the last year of the war, when conscription became the name of the game. People frequently were transferred out of concentration camps and death squads to other units willingly.
 
2013-07-28 02:51:47 PM

hardinparamedic: Misconduc: Imagine if you are a soldier during ww2, and your commander says burn down this village or you will be shipped to the eastern front. You do what you have to do to survive. You cannot simply say no and to disobey orders is ground for mutiny and a general court marshal, during war time? you get hanged or sent to the eastern front which generally means you are dead either way.

This is actually incorrect. The people doing the killing in the SS were volunteers until the last year of the war, when conscription became the name of the game. People frequently were transferred out of concentration camps and death squads to other units willingly.


There was still plenty of killing going on by the regular army. But Misconduc is also wrong because not a single account of a soldier being reprimanded or otherwise retaliated against for failing to obey such orders has been found, but they HAVE found instances of soldiers refusing and not having any penalty for doing so.

It's an understandable myth - we tend to have a cartoonish view of what it was like for Germans under Hitler. It was a lot less oppressive for proper Aryan folk than the movies make it look.
 
2013-07-28 03:15:38 PM

vygramul: hardinparamedic: Misconduc: Imagine if you are a soldier during ww2, and your commander says burn down this village or you will be shipped to the eastern front. You do what you have to do to survive. You cannot simply say no and to disobey orders is ground for mutiny and a general court marshal, during war time? you get hanged or sent to the eastern front which generally means you are dead either way.

There was still plenty of killing going on by the regular army. But Misconduc is also wrong because not a single account of a soldier being reprimanded or otherwise retaliated against for failing to obey such orders has been found, but they HAVE found instances of soldiers refusing and not having any penalty for doing so.



It depends on the officer in charge, the Wehrmacht was vastly different then the SS. There are numerous accounts of soldiers being sent to the firing squad or reprimanded for not following orders. The german army had one of the strictest disciplines of any army during world war two. When I say german army I mean the Wehrmacht not the SS. There were German Wehrmacht who gave orders to kill, but it was highly unlikely vs an SS officer.
 
2013-07-28 03:29:37 PM
The One True TheDavid: Mock26: Smackledorfer: Benevolent Misanthrope:

So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

I am with you on this.

Nothing is served by continuuing the hunt at this point. Vengeance isn't justice.

But this is not vengeance.  It is justice.

Then please tell me what the difference is. Especially 68 years (and almost 3 months) later, after the Shoah definitively ended with the unconditional surrender of the Nazi regime, when the murderers you seek are 90-some years old.

And please don't hand me anything about "no statute of limitations for murder," unless you can prove that the law has never been used as an instrument of vengeance. Note that I'm not arguing that "justice" and revenge" can never coincide, only that hunting somebody to the ends of the Earth for almost 70 years sounds a bit too "dedicated" to be purely altruistic.

Nor am I saying that "the Jews" should not get revenge. I recognize revenge as valid in some cases where injury has been committed, and murdering millions of Jews for being Jews can hardly be construed as anything but. But don't be hypocritical: if justice were better served by letting them go free you still would not consider it. You don't hunt somebody down for 68 years to assure him that all is forgiven.

There's an old saying of varied attributions that "Revenge is a dish best served cold." 68 years is pretty cold alright. Such dedication!

The Nazis were also fanatically dedicated, in their case to the extermination of European Jewry: even when killing Jews proved to be a stupid diversion from the war effort, when the Soviet Army was well into the process of kicking the Nazis' asses back to Berlin and then some, they kept right ahead with what they called their just cause. They hated the Jews so much they kept hunting them down wherever they could reach for as long as they could; that they left any Jews alive when they cut and ran from the camps can only be an oversight, surely this was not done by the Führer's order. In the teeth of Stalin's army they kept murdering innocents. Surely anybody who calls hunting somebody down for 68 years "justice" has got to admire their dedication. "We will not rest until every last Enemy has been hunted down and 'treated appropriately,' even when there is no longer any practical benefit to doing so (if there ever was), even if our own friends stand back and shake their heads at what they call our insanity." At least unlike Hitler you see no need to hunt down every last Nazi even if it means the death of every last Jew, but then for 68 years you've been on the winning side.

Another thing: let's not forget that the Nazis too claimed their cause was just, that they were seeking justice on "the Jews" for all the alleged wrongs they'd committed against their people. (No I'm not saying they were correct, only pointing out that that's what they said.) Furthermore the Nazis said they aimed to deter any other (potential) enemy from committing injustice against the German nation and the Aryan race, that the signal example rendered unto the Jews should suffice. And yes I do mean to trace a faint family resemblance here, as I do elsewhere by pointing out that Zionism is a form of fascism. Granted I'd much rather live in today's Israel than Nazi Germany or even today's Iran, but that's just saying that I'd rather hammer my thumb than have my head bashed in.

And oh. I give you credit by assuming you're a Jew, with a just claim to revenge: someone who seeks to justify someone else's fanatical dedication to "justice" is mainly just nuts.


P.S. No I don't buy the "weak Hitler" theory. After swearing in print and in public for 25 years that he hated the Jews and wanted them all dead the Holocaust "just happened?" That's just plain silly, and Mommsen et al. should be ashamed of themselves. At least give that dedicated fanatic hate-filled creep credit where it's due: he swore to eliminate the Jews of Europe and he damn near did.



Someone who cannot see the need to continue the hunt for those who contributed to the murder of nearly 6 million people is not mainly just nuts.  Such a person is completely nuts.  For whatever reason (though I am going with the theory that you are a white supremacist who thinks that 6 million was too low) you seem to think that just because 68 number of years have gone by that we should just forget about the atrocities that they committed and let them get away with it, so nothing I say will not make a difference to you.  Nor will my explaining the difference between justice and vengeance have any impact on you because you believe that they deserve to have gotten away with what they did, all because it was 68 years ago.

Out of curiosity, how many years should they have hunted before giving up?  1?  5?  10?

PS I am not a jew.  I do not have a stake in this, but in my opinion certain crimes should not have a statute of limitations, and murder is one of them.  But this is more than murder.  This was the attempted genocide of an entire group of people.  Hades, this was the attempted genocide of over a half doze groups of people.  The holocaust also targeted gypsies, ethnic poles (of whom almost 2 million were murdered), freemasons, disabled people, homosexuals, and jehovah's witnesses.  The Nazis were also responsible for the murder of over 10 million slavs.  Not to mention forced slavery of many of the people who were ultimately murdered.  So yeah, if you are OK with just letting that go because it was X number of years ago then there is no point in my trying to explain it to you, because your mind is completely closed.
 
2013-07-28 03:41:18 PM

Mugato: Can they prove these guys committed atrocities just because they were Nazis? Our soldiers committed some pretty sick shiat when we were in Viet Nam. Should we round up all Viet Nam vets?


But the victims were not Jews.
 
2013-07-28 03:53:15 PM

Vectron: Mugato: Can they prove these guys committed atrocities just because they were Nazis? Our soldiers committed some pretty sick shiat when we were in Viet Nam. Should we round up all Viet Nam vets?

But the victims were not Jews.


Neither were the europeans the Russians slaughtered across europe, the Hungarians and Poles. Mind the Chinese at the hands of the Japanese. How about George bush in his invasion of Iraq? Technology might of caught up enough we can put a single bomb through a window, however countless civilians have been slaughtered everywhere and just how many war criminals have been brought to court since WW2? A few bosnians?

Nazis were not the only bad guys.
 
2013-07-28 04:01:45 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?


They will be happy with the publicity, keeping everybody aware of a horrible piece of history which somehow justifies all the horrible history Israel, and her agents in other countries, are creating today. Which is why, right after 9/11, Discovery Times and the History Channel went to a 24/7 Nazi/Holocaust format. They kind of told on themselves with that.
 
2013-07-28 04:09:16 PM

Apik0r0s: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center want to do?  Jail them for the year they have left, on the taxpayer dime, to get vengeance?

They will be happy with the publicity, keeping everybody aware of how much MONEY they need to continue going.

<-fixed it for ya
 
2013-07-28 04:12:20 PM

Misconduc: There are numerous accounts of soldiers being sent to the firing squad or reprimanded for not following orders.


Not a single one for refusing to take part in genocide. Not one.
 
2013-07-28 04:13:22 PM

Mugato: Can they prove these guys committed atrocities just because they were Nazis? Our soldiers committed some pretty sick shiat when we were in Viet Nam. Should we round up all Viet Nam vets?


No one is trying to round up all members of the Wehrmacht. That's not an appropriate comparison.
 
2013-07-28 04:27:29 PM

hardinparamedic: Pumpernickel bread: Unless Hitler actually got away and is still around, at this point, I am perfectly willing to just let it go.  If we need any proof that these guys aren't really monsters, but just soldiers following orders, it is they have been able to lead productive lives abiding by the laws of whatever nation they ended up in for close to 70 years.

Besides, so much time has passed,  I think it would be impossible to give any of then a fair trial.

If you believe this, then there is no way you can enforce the Nuremberg Doctrine in the least. Following orders will become a legitimate defense to any inhuman act.


Then maybe there is a problem with the doctrine.  I think most people would do what was ordered, even the killing others,  when the punishment for not doing so is death.  Like most militaries in wartime, the Germans made an example of deserters and those challenging authority.

It is the monster that will do it without a gun to his head.
 
2013-07-28 04:33:03 PM

Pumpernickel bread: when the punishment for not doing so is death.


Except it wasn't. Not a single instance of a german soldier being retaliated against for refusing to kill Jews has been documented. Not by thousands of diaries, thousands of personal accounts, and thousands of witness testimony from perps and survivors alike. Not a one. Niente. Keine.
 
2013-07-28 04:38:56 PM

vygramul: Misconduc: There are numerous accounts of soldiers being sent to the firing squad or reprimanded for not following orders.

Not a single one for refusing to take part in genocide. Not one.



Dead men tell no tales?
 
2013-07-28 05:10:28 PM

Amos Quito: vygramul: Misconduc: There are numerous accounts of soldiers being sent to the firing squad or reprimanded for not following orders.

Not a single one for refusing to take part in genocide. Not one.


Dead men tell no tales?


Unless they agree with you?
 
2013-07-28 05:29:46 PM

Amos Quito: vygramul: Misconduc: There are numerous accounts of soldiers being sent to the firing squad or reprimanded for not following orders.

Not a single one for refusing to take part in genocide. Not one.


Dead men tell no tales?


Problem is Amos has no idea how many, Its not widely published how many soldiers get court marshaled, especially during war - one thing the germans were great at was keeping records and logs, problem is when the war was getting lost much of the paper work was destroyed to protect their asses.  I am a military historian and I deeply regret having a fanatical interest in this subject because its far more gruesome then I could imagine, no horror movie comes close to some of the things I've read.

But as you say, dead men tell no tales - exactly. Books don't get published by dead men, only those who live, there are extremely few accounts or eye witnesses to events such as this, in fact the problem of trying to piece the information together because the records were destroyed. Amos believes not one did, in fact I recount at least a dozen stories, but the problem with fact and fiction is trying to piece together the timeline, in many cases it can't be done.

Look at  Simon Wiesenthalfor example, he's a nazi hunter that wrote quite a few books, until recently people compared the books and information he has, and found out he basically took partial information and filled in the blanks with his own lies and hearsay. Now nothing he says is credible, unfortunately I am not allowed to cite any of his work in anything I do, which makes researching that much more complicated.
 
2013-07-28 06:37:02 PM

hubiestubert: Smackledorfer: hubiestubert: No, that was to put things into perspective.

Right, the perspective in which only those who have suffered pain equal or greater to yours can weigh in on a discussion about justice, and otherwise get dismissed entirely.

One minute you talk of justice and tell me that since I've never been stabbed like you I can't understand it.
Then you say it is justice because of the rule of law.
Now you admit that justice and rule of law are sometimes at odds, but that we as a nation cannot ever toss out rule of law.

You are all over the road, because you have replaced reason and logic with emotion.  I don't respect you any less for it, but it does nothing to bolster your argument.  Step back from this for a second.  Thus far you have failed to stick to a point; you respond to each of my posts by switching to a different tactic. You have made the discussion personal, about what you think my experiences are and why yours make your view somehow more valid.

If you honestly think a single wanna-be race criminal is deterred or shown whats-what by the continued nazi hunt, you are out of your mind.  For that to happen someone would have to thinking "gee, I'd like to murder some xxx, and I will definitely get away with it in the short term at least, but what will happen to me when I'm 95?" You aren't sending anyone any messages here.  Nobody thinks anyone has forgotten. Nobody thinks society will accept their potential fourth reich. What continued use of resources hunting 95 year old nazies does is waste resources that could be better applied elsewhere.

hubiestubert: revenge--which you seem obsessed with

The obsession is clearly yours. How can I be obsessed with revenge when by your own knowledge you are certain I've never been hurt by racism in my life? How can I be the one obsessed with revenge when I'm calling for the opposite of revenge, and you are calling for the spending of resources, no matter how great, to preserve the rule of law and justice, which you admit may or may not actually have meaning, in order to get justice for the victimized?  That is revenge if ever I looked at it. If you stopped filling your thoughts with emotions and assumptions about me, you might be capable of seeing that is all you've argued for in this thread, with the half-assed support of an extremely weak appeal to deterrence.

The point is not my being stabbed, or suffered personally. The point is having dealt with the folks who revere this sort of symbol. And that's what they are at this point: symbols. This is where I think you've missed the point. Not the stabbing, not the suffering--cripes, it was nine stitches, and I've had worse trips to the hospital just from work related accidents. It is putting experience into perspective. Understanding these folks having dealt with them up close and personal. Conversations, and more.

You don't tear apart the symbol with revenge. That only makes those symbols stronger. More entrenched. Skins and their ilk LOVE to be special. They crave it. Their entire ethos is etched on that basis, and their scapegoats are the folks that they blame for not getting their due. They are willing to do terrible things in order to validate this, because otherwise they might have to admit that their own ills are of their own doing. The best way to do that is to NOT treat them as so special that they require extreme measures, but simple justice for their deeds. Their day in court, their day to defend their actions, and if found wanting, they serve their time for it.

Mind you, there ARE plenty of war criminals, and far more recent ones that also need to be addressed. And there is a particular lack of will on the part of many, because it's often difficult. Difficult and the law shouldn't be confused though.

That folks have harried and committed atrocity should be the issue. Not the age, nor the time passed. That we hold to the idea that their deeds are not acceptable, that they don't get a pass, and it comes down to not just deterrence--because skins and their ilk are not going to be swayed by the thought of hard time. Instead, you show that the basis of their uniqueness is false. Not them personally, but their actions are what have brought them down. They can claim that their cause is the issue, but you use the rule of law to address the actions. That the basis for their persecution is NOT simply their ideology or race, but that their actions are at the center.

People will hate. They will burn in their bellies for all sorts of reasons. The question is not about that hate, their ideology, but to hold their actions accountable. Man can hate for his entire life, preach all he wants about the terribleness of his particular bugbear, and you address each action. You disagree with their stand, then you address the speech in kind if so inclined. You address actions that harm with the rule of law, and take away their desperate cry that they are special, so special that they can ignore such petty concerns. Because that is the point. To take away these symbols, these rallying points. Not revenge, because these folks thrive on the thought. It only feeds into the thought that they are so special, so very right that they must be feared by those too weak to take the stand that they've chosen. You dismantle this idea that they are so special that they can act with impunity, and you, as in the societal you, do so to address that fact that their actions are the issue. Think what they want, but act upon it, and then society addresses those actions.


That was pretty rambling snd incoherant, hubie.

It sounds like you agree with me now. You agree deterrance isn't there; except for specialness, which frankly by having the level of hunt we still maintain we are actually making these folks more special.

I am not asking to declare them innocent and pardoned. I am saying it is a waste thst accomplishes nothing beyond revenge. If they weren't special and if you weren't emotional, you might see that too.
 
2013-07-28 07:04:56 PM

ReapTheChaos: So you're saying that people cant understand grief and loss unless they've had a loved one murdered? Death is death, whether it's murder, a heart attack or some kind of accident. I fail to see how they died really matters to the point I was making.


Your statement is proof enough that you don't understand.  Ask the loved one of a murder victim if they think "death is death, it's all the same".  I don't mean this as a slam, but you honestly don't know what you're talking about.
 
2013-07-28 07:05:37 PM

Uncle Tractor: karmachameleon: Your 12-year-old son, 15-year-old daughter, and your wife of 20 years have all been found murdered in your home that's been robbed, stabbed to death when they interrupted the home intruder.  The police work the case hard, but nothing turns up.  A year passes.  Two years.  Are you over it?  Do you ask the police to call off the investigation?  Of course not.  5 years pass.  10.  At what point do you tell the police to put away the file and forget all about it?

At some point, the guy who murdered this hypothetical family has become a doddering old man who can't even wipe his own ass and barely remembers his own name. The guy who killed that family is long gone. All that's left is an old relic.

What to do ...?


Completely beside the point.
 
2013-07-28 07:07:44 PM

Misconduc: While they took orders and performed them without question and many did kill civilians, war is war.


Seriously?
 
2013-07-28 07:09:06 PM

Smackledorfer: It sounds like you agree with me now. You agree deterrance isn't there; except for specialness, which frankly by having the level of hunt we still maintain we are actually making these folks more special.

I am not asking to declare them innocent and pardoned. I am saying it is a waste thst accomplishes nothing beyond revenge. If they weren't special and if you weren't emotional, you might see that too.


It's not "coming around" to anything. It's been the point from the beginning. It's not about deterrence, or rather, it's about drawing a line in the sand, and saying, "No." It won't stop the "faithful" but it will declare what we hold important and keep that in the fore. As these folks die off the vine, they lose their heroes. They lose their uniqueness. At some point, we as a society have to declare not just what we are for, but also what we are against. What we will not hold to. As folks realize that they are further and further from the fold, oddly enough, that whole sociology of deviance thing does take hold.

Deviance is a natural part of our psychology. We reinforce that continually, albeit what we hold to, and what we find repugnant do often change over time, holding folks like this accountable, in a fashion that is legal and binding, and according to the rule of law, is part of that.

I disagree that it is a waste of time. It isn't about revenge, it is about defining what is important to us, as a society. This isn't a new wrinkle, it is parsing it down since you seem to have missed it the first few times. Implementation IS important in showing what we are for and what we are against, and if we use the rule of law, as opposed to simplifying things, we reinforce that rule of law, and what defines our mores.
 
2013-07-28 07:37:53 PM

karmachameleon: Misconduc: While they took orders and performed them without question and many did kill civilians, war is war.

Seriously?


Go wiki bombing of hamburg germany WW2 and get back to me.
 
2013-07-28 07:47:34 PM

Misconduc: Problem is Amos has no idea how many, Its not widely published how many soldiers get court marshaled, especially during war - one thing the germans were great at was keeping records and logs, problem is when the war was getting lost much of the paper work was destroyed to protect their asses.  I am a military historian and I deeply regret having a fanatical interest in this subject because its far more gruesome then I could imagine, no horror movie comes close to some of the things I've read.

But as you say, dead men tell no tales - exactly. Books don't get published by dead men, only those who live, there are extremely few accounts or eye witnesses to events such as this, in fact the problem of trying to piece the information together because the records were destroyed. Amos believes not one did, in fact I recount at least a dozen stories, but the problem with fact and fiction is trying to piece together the timeline, in many cases it can't be done.


So there are no accounts. Does that mean your earlier statement:

Misconduc: There are numerous accounts


Was, shall we say, inaccurate?

Look at  Simon Wiesenthalfor example, he's a nazi hunter that wrote quite a few books, until recently people compared the books and information he has, and found out he basically took partial information and filled in the blanks with his own lies and hearsay. Now nothing he says is credible, unfortunately I am not allowed to cite any of his work in anything I do, which makes researching that much more complicated.

You're NOT ALLOWED to cite his work? By whom, your employer? Because that's the only one who has any such authority over that.

So, again: there are no accounts of soldiers being punished for refusing, either formally or informally, despite thousands of diaries and interviews and records. Not a one. Not, "very few," not, "only a couple," zero, zilch, nada, niente, keine. In fact, were I to find such a record, I would consider it a bit of a holy grail. If you actually find one, please, share.
 
2013-07-28 07:52:28 PM

Misconduc: Amos Quito: vygramul: Misconduc: There are numerous accounts of soldiers being sent to the firing squad or reprimanded for not following orders.

Not a single one for refusing to take part in genocide. Not one.


Dead men tell no tales?

Problem is Amos has no idea how many, Its not widely published how many soldiers get court marshaled, especially during war - one thing the germans were great at was keeping records and logs, problem is when the war was getting lost much of the paper work was destroyed to protect their asses.  I am a military historian and I deeply regret having a fanatical interest in this subject because its far more gruesome then I could imagine, no horror movie comes close to some of the things I've read.

But as you say, dead men tell no tales - exactly. Books don't get published by dead men, only those who live, there are extremely few accounts or eye witnesses to events such as this, in fact the problem of trying to piece the information together because the records were destroyed. Amos believes not one did, in fact I recount at least a dozen stories, but the problem with fact and fiction is trying to piece together the timeline, in many cases it can't be done.



I think you may be confused about what "Amos believes".


Misconduc: Look at Simon Wiesenthalfor example, he's a nazi hunter that wrote quite a few books, until recently people compared the books and information he has, and found out he basically took partial information and filled in the blanks with his own lies and hearsay. Now nothing he says is credible, unfortunately I am not allowed to cite any of his work in anything I do, which makes researching that much more complicated.



Yeah, Wiesenthal was a fraud.

Of course, not many people would dare point to this fact out of fear of retribution - indeed, almost no one did until he died.

And of course he will retain his undeserved status as a god-like hero, in spite of this exposure.

And if you think that's bad, wait 'til Elie Wiesel dies.
 
2013-07-28 08:05:13 PM

vygramul: Misconduc: There are numerous accounts

Was, shall we say, inaccurate?

Look at Simon Wiesenthalfor example, he's a nazi hunter that wrote quite a few books, until recently people compared the books and information he has, and found out he basically took partial information and filled in the blanks with his own lies and hearsay. Now nothing he says is credible, unfortunately I am not allowed to cite any of his work in anything I do, which makes researching that much more complicated.

You're NOT ALLOWED to cite his work? By whom, your employer? Because that's the only one who has any such authority over that.



I would think that anyone who wishes their own work to be taken seriously would avoid citing the works of those that are known to have repeatedly lied and committed fraud for their own self aggrandizement:

For example:

"A United States Congressional Resolution lauded him as being "instrumental in the capture and conviction of more than 1,000 Nazi war criminals, including Adolf Eichmann, the architect of the Nazi plan to annihilate European Jewry." But Isser Harel, the mastermind who headed Israel's Security Services at the time of Eichmann's capture, insisted that Wiesenthal played no role in the operation. In fact, according to Harel, Wiesenthal almost sabotaged the whole effort when he shared information that had been given to him in strictest confidence. While Harel's account of this episode in The House on Garibaldi Street may be somewhat self-serving, he is by no means the only one to denounce Wiesenthal as a self-promoter and even a fraud. Other critics have accused him of falsely taking credit for finding criminals and repeatedly inventing information unsupported by any data."


So yeah, Wiesenthal is not exactly the best source to cite.
 
2013-07-28 08:07:42 PM

hubiestubert: Smackledorfer: It sounds like you agree with me now. You agree deterrance isn't there; except for specialness, which frankly by having the level of hunt we still maintain we are actually making these folks more special.

I am not asking to declare them innocent and pardoned. I am saying it is a waste thst accomplishes nothing beyond revenge. If they weren't special and if you weren't emotional, you might see that too.

It's not "coming around" to anything. It's been the point from the beginning. It's not about deterrence, or rather, it's about drawing a line in the sand, and saying, "No." It won't stop the "faithful" but it will declare what we hold important and keep that in the fore. As these folks die off the vine, they lose their heroes. They lose their uniqueness. At some point, we as a society have to declare not just what we are for, but also what we are against. What we will not hold to. As folks realize that they are further and further from the fold, oddly enough, that whole sociology of deviance thing does take hold.

Deviance is a natural part of our psychology. We reinforce that continually, albeit what we hold to, and what we find repugnant do often change over time, holding folks like this accountable, in a fashion that is legal and binding, and according to the rule of law, is part of that.

I disagree that it is a waste of time. It isn't about revenge, it is about defining what is important to us, as a society. This isn't a new wrinkle, it is parsing it down since you seem to have missed it the first few times. Implementation IS important in showing what we are for and what we are against, and if we use the rule of law, as opposed to simplifying things, we reinforce that rule of law, and what defines our mores.


Just to be clear, now it isn't about deterrance, but purely 'we are a state of laws' stuff?

Because wasn't it about deterrance before when you were sending those racists a message? Now it isn't anymore?

So now you have no argument of why we should do it except 'it is the law, and therefore must be done, or else our social moores will crumble'?

If so then we can agree to disagree.
 
2013-07-28 08:31:14 PM

Smackledorfer: Just to be clear, now it isn't about deterrance, but purely 'we are a state of laws' stuff?

Because wasn't it about deterrance before when you were sending those racists a message? Now it isn't anymore?

So now you have no argument of why we should do it except 'it is the law, and therefore must be done, or else our social moores will crumble'?

If so then we can agree to disagree.


Mores change. It used to be acceptable in polite society to talk about the dark folks that you were going to lynch in the evening, right after supper and maybe a chaw of tobacco or a decent cigar. How did they change? How did things move on?

It is about sending a message, not to the fervent, but dismantling the apparatus within our societies that says, "Those folks over there are less than we are, so it's OK if we just gas them." Or shoot them. Or drag them across the desert on a tow hitch. Or chuck them off a bridge. What do we stand for, and will that message be gotten by the bulk of the populace? Will we state what we are for? In fairness, the bulk of the German populace wasn't exactly in the loop for the Holocaust. Oh, they figured it out, they could parse it well enough with the rhetoric, and they accepted it, even while denying that they could be culpable to such horrors. Only when confronted with it, without any dissembling, without any excuse, could they move on--which is why I have some issue with my mother's people with how they treat their own record during WWII and leading up to it. It isn't facing the truth, it's simply burying it to be forgotten.

Therein is the rub. To confront folks with the truth of their actions. Not with the "defense of the white race" nonsense, or the "making the world safe for the Aryan race" crap, but with the truth of it, and even years later, to force folks to confront the reality of the deeds done in their name. It's, as I've repeatedly said, about responsibility. We have that responsibility as well.

At this point, it's going to be a cyclical argument, as at this point, it's a near willful obtuseness, but yes, let's agree to disagree.
 
2013-07-28 09:34:24 PM

hubiestubert: Smackledorfer: Just to be clear, now it isn't about deterrance, but purely 'we are a state of laws' stuff?

Because wasn't it about deterrance before when you were sending those racists a message? Now it isn't anymore?

So now you have no argument of why we should do it except 'it is the law, and therefore must be done, or else our social moores will crumble'?

If so then we can agree to disagree.

Mores change. It used to be acceptable in polite society to talk about the dark folks that you were going to lynch in the evening, right after supper and maybe a chaw of tobacco or a decent cigar. How did they change? How did things move on?

It is about sending a message, not to the fervent, but dismantling the apparatus within our societies that says, "Those folks over there are less than we are, so it's OK if we just gas them." Or shoot them. Or drag them across the desert on a tow hitch. Or chuck them off a bridge. What do we stand for, and will that message be gotten by the bulk of the populace? Will we state what we are for? In fairness, the bulk of the German populace wasn't exactly in the loop for the Holocaust. Oh, they figured it out, they could parse it well enough with the rhetoric, and they accepted it, even while denying that they could be culpable to such horrors. Only when confronted with it, without any dissembling, without any excuse, could they move on--which is why I have some issue with my mother's people with how they treat their own record during WWII and leading up to it. It isn't facing the truth, it's simply burying it to be forgotten.

Therein is the rub. To confront folks with the truth of their actions. Not with the "defense of the white race" nonsense, or the "making the world safe for the Aryan race" crap, but with the truth of it, and even years later, to force folks to confront the reality of the deeds done in their name. It's, as I've repeatedly said, about responsibility. We have that responsibility as well.

At this point, it's going to be a cyclical argument, as at this point, it's a near willful obtuseness, but yes, let's agree to disagree.


Discussing something with you here feels like talking to a pothead, when they just go on and without ever getting to their point in anything remotely concise. When you sober up, read how wandering your posts here. You aren't getting more across by going off on tangents like you have ADD.
 
2013-07-28 09:51:54 PM

Misconduc: karmachameleon: Misconduc: While they took orders and performed them without question and many did kill civilians, war is war.

Seriously?

Go wiki bombing of hamburg germany WW2 and get back to me.


Doubling down on the dumb.  Be gone.
 
2013-07-29 02:22:42 AM

hubiestubert: For the folks who think that these are just poor old men...watch who comes out for their funerals...

In fairness, this goes for the monsters that my mother's people put in charge of things too. Genocide doesn't have a statute of limitations. It's not about revenge, it's about holding them responsible, and not making them creatures of pity. It's about making them face what they've done. Plain and simple. It won't reach some, but as a society and a circle of societies, how we face these horrors, drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Never again" is important. As important today as it was then. Ethnic cleansing is still an issue. It is still going on. And not just in Africa, not just in out of the way nations, but in Europe and the whole situation in Georgia, just recently, was based on folks who figured that if they just exterminated their neighbors, everything would be fine. Mind you, the Ossetians called on the Bolsheviks to help them NOT be exterminated way back, and again, after Georgia split, folks figured that it was still a good option.

Tell yourselves, O ye defenders of the poor downtrodden monsters, that it's been too long. Then look into the faces of those who survived. Look into the faces of their children, and their children's children, who would never have been if these pieces of kuso had their way.

We can ignore it, because it's more convenient. But sometimes, it's a matter of standing up and saying, "No. No more."


I haven't read much of this thread, but THIS. This to me is a commitment from society that says "you commit this sort of crime, or are accessory to it, you will be hunted down for the rest of your life. There is no statute of limitations, we don't care what good you've done since then, you have to pay the piper for such actions."  It's the best way to discourage such things.
 
2013-07-29 02:49:01 AM

karmachameleon: At some point, the guy who murdered this hypothetical family has become a doddering old man who can't even wipe his own ass and barely remembers his own name. The guy who killed that family is long gone. All that's left is an old relic.

What to do ...?

Completely beside the point.


But it's on topic for the thread; bringing people to court for crimes committed so long ago that the accused are on the verge of dying of old age and probably don't even know what's going on.

Another point on the old nazi thing: These people lived to see the Third Reich crumble, their leaders (most of them) dragged through court, whether en masse at Nuremberg or one by one ever since, their leaders and their ideology dragged through the gutter, everything they once stood for has become a symbol of human evil, and everything they did in the prime of their lives has turned to ashes. Not only that, but they've had to live their entire lives with the possibility of being captured and dragged of to Israel.
 
2013-07-29 02:51:26 AM

Fano: I haven't read much of this thread, but THIS. This to me is a commitment from society that says "you commit this sort of crime, or are accessory to it, you will be hunted down for the rest of your life. There is no statute of limitations, we don't care what good you've done since then, you have to pay the piper for such actions."  It's the best way to discourage such things.


And yet hardly a decade has gone by since without exactly that sort of thing taking place.
 
2013-07-29 04:06:17 AM

Uncle Tractor: karmachameleon: At some point, the guy who murdered this hypothetical family has become a doddering old man who can't even wipe his own ass and barely remembers his own name. The guy who killed that family is long gone. All that's left is an old relic.

What to do ...?

Completely beside the point.

But it's on topic for the thread; bringing people to court for crimes committed so long ago that the accused are on the verge of dying of old age and probably don't even know what's going on.

Another point on the old nazi thing: These people lived to see the Third Reich crumble, their leaders (most of them) dragged through court, whether en masse at Nuremberg or one by one ever since, their leaders and their ideology dragged through the gutter, everything they once stood for has become a symbol of human evil, and everything they did in the prime of their lives has turned to ashes. Not only that, but they've had to live their entire lives with the possibility of being captured and dragged of to Israel.


None of this matters.  None of it.  It's truly sad that you and others don't seem to get this.
 
2013-07-29 04:47:24 AM

karmachameleon: None of this matters.  None of it.  It's truly sad that you and others don't seem to get this.


Then explain it to me and the others who don't get it. What are we missing?
 
2013-07-29 05:09:36 AM

Uncle Tractor: karmachameleon: None of this matters.  None of it.  It's truly sad that you and others don't seem to get this.

Then explain it to me and the others who don't get it. What are we missing?


What's to explain?  Murder (and accessory to it) has no statute of limitations, which is as it should be.  There's no controversy over this, no matter how hard to try to manufacture one.

Sometimes I think these arguments get started and go on and on because people try to over-analyze and make things too complicated.  But if you just go to the root of the issue, it's very simple.  These people are either murderers or accessories to murder, and participated in one of the most infamous cases of genocide in history, and they should be hunted until they are all gone.  It's just as simple as that.
 
2013-07-29 08:54:33 AM
karmachameleon: What's to explain?  Murder (and accessory to it) has no statute of limitations, which is as it should be.  There's no controversy over this, no matter how hard to try to manufacture one.

Here i Norway, it does, and IMO it should. IIRC the limit is 20 years. If you kill someone and don't get caught the next twenty years, you're free. The police will still want to talk with you for the sake of the paperwork, but that's it.

...And you know what? I kinda agree with this. Twenty years is a long time. You are not the person you were twenty years ago, and neither is anybody else. If one is looking for justice, it's probably too late. If one is looking for revenge, one should grow the fark up. If  one wants closure, well, I can understand that, but how's that going to work by sending some senile guy to jail?

Sometimes I think these arguments get started and go on and on because people try to over-analyze and make things too complicated.  But if you just go to the root of the issue, it's very simple.  These people are either murderers or accessories to murder, and participated in one of the most infamous cases of genocide in history, and they should be hunted until they are all gone.  It's just as simple as that.

Yeah, but that boat has sailed for the Holocaust. The guilty have lived their lives in freedom. They got away. Whether they spend their last days in a prison cell or a geriatric ward .. meh. Besides, there are plenty of more recent genocides to focus on.
 
2013-07-29 10:39:45 AM

Uncle Tractor: Fano: I haven't read much of this thread, but THIS. This to me is a commitment from society that says "you commit this sort of crime, or are accessory to it, you will be hunted down for the rest of your life. There is no statute of limitations, we don't care what good you've done since then, you have to pay the piper for such actions."  It's the best way to discourage such things.

And yet hardly a decade has gone by since without exactly that sort of thing taking place.


Deterrence isn't the same as elimination. I think you know that and let yourself say something rather silly.
 
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