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(The Daily Caller)   U.S. Army switches to "green" bullets made of copper instead of lead. Apparently the next time we invade a country to dispose of a leader who won't give us oil we'll at least do it in an environmentally friendly way   (dailycaller.com) divider line 132
    More: Interesting, U.S. Army  
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4309 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jul 2013 at 9:37 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-27 08:21:03 AM
I guess it's better than depleted uranium.
 
2013-07-27 08:56:25 AM
Sounds like a good idea until a crackhead breaks into an armory and steals an entire battalion's worth of ammo to sell for scrap.
 
2013-07-27 09:03:20 AM
Replace the tracer round with a battery and then zap 'em
 
2013-07-27 09:40:27 AM
Oh come on, copper's expensive enough as it is!
 
2013-07-27 09:43:11 AM

dfenstrate: Oh come on, copper's expensive enough as it is!


Like the government cares how much the Pentagon spends.
 
2013-07-27 09:44:51 AM
I bet Chile is getting a kick out of these news...
 
2013-07-27 09:46:01 AM
Since the two metals are roughly the same in price, i'm going to assume lead has recently become slightly more expensive than copper.
 
2013-07-27 09:46:01 AM
How many times do we have to address this crap? Most US ammunition expenditure occurs on American soil at firing ranges and exercise grounds, especially during peacetime. Those ranges see incredibly heavy use, often for decades at a time. That lead leeches out of the spent rounds into the soil and groundwater, and has turned more than a few military bases into environmental disasters.

This is absolutely the right thing to do for the country's future, and the opposition amounts to nothing more than "if the greenies are for it, I'm against it!". Grow up.
 
2013-07-27 09:46:51 AM
This sounds really expensive and really bad for the copper market. Not to mention it seems like a complete waste of copper, which is kind of a useful metal. Grrr.
 
2013-07-27 09:46:54 AM
www.theblindcard.com
 
2013-07-27 09:49:55 AM

dfenstrate: Oh come on, copper's expensive enough as it is!


I was thinking the same thing. Surely there is some iron alloy they could use, perhaps in a coilgun of some kind.
 
2013-07-27 09:53:50 AM

Wolf_Blitzer: ost US ammunition expenditure occurs on American soil at firing ranges and exercise grounds, especially during peacetime


US had a peacetime ? when ?
 
2013-07-27 09:54:01 AM

dfenstrate: Oh come on, copper's expensive enough as it is!


Indeed. But more seriously...wouldn't this make bullets lighter? Hmm...1/2mv^2....remind me, does this make this Cu bullet more capable, or less capable, compared to heaver versions?
 
2013-07-27 09:56:09 AM
How about we stop using pennies, melt them down and make bullets.

And next time we go to war for oil -- let's at least come home with it.
 
2013-07-27 09:56:25 AM
They used lead? Not in unjacketed form. Copper jackets are normal for hunting ammo.
 
2013-07-27 09:57:05 AM

Slartibartfaster: Wolf_Blitzer: ost US ammunition expenditure occurs on American soil at firing ranges and exercise grounds, especially during peacetime

US had a peacetime ? when ?


The carter administration.

That being said, I don't see how copper can perform as well as lead given it's lesser density
 
2013-07-27 09:57:16 AM

Slartibartfaster: US had a peacetime ? when ?


Sometime previous to the Spanish-American War.
 
2013-07-27 09:57:55 AM
Was Saddam Hussein not giving us oil? That doesn't quite seem to make sense. The molecules' fungibility and all.
 
2013-07-27 09:58:56 AM
Since copper has a higher melting point than lead, could we expect copper to require more energy to produce the same number of rounds?

Go green!!
 
2013-07-27 09:59:23 AM

Snarfangel: dfenstrate: Oh come on, copper's expensive enough as it is!

I was thinking the same thing. Surely there is some iron alloy they could use, perhaps in a coilgun of some kind.


Mr. Beck is so sad they didn't use gold.
 
2013-07-27 09:59:52 AM
We are so thoughtful like that. i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-27 10:00:31 AM
I'm surprised they haven't been practicing with frangible all along.

Not just contaminating the land, indoor ranges have to use ventilation systems to keep the lead out of the air -- which isn't necessary with frangible.  Safer, too -- no ricochets and less penetration power.
 
2013-07-27 10:01:20 AM

Four Horsemen of the Domestic Dispute: How about we stop using pennies, melt them down and make bullets.

And next time we go to war for oil -- let's at least come home with it.


While I am in full support of trashing the penny, they are made out of zinc not copper and would not make good bullets.

How about we cut back on the firing range war games?
 
2013-07-27 10:03:21 AM

uber humper: indoor ranges have to use ventilation systems to keep the lead out of the air -- which isn't necessary with frangible


Interesting, why?
 
2013-07-27 10:03:35 AM

Wolf_Blitzer: How many times do we have to address this crap? Most US ammunition expenditure occurs on American soil at firing ranges and exercise grounds, especially during peacetime. Those ranges see incredibly heavy use, often for decades at a time. That lead leeches out of the spent rounds into the soil and groundwater, and has turned more than a few military bases into environmental disasters.

This is absolutely the right thing to do for the country's future, and the opposition amounts to nothing more than "if the greenies are for it, I'm against it!". Grow up.


The best part is, they're against it because it's green, but it makes for better bullets.

Green bullets, like the M855A1, have been touted for their enhanced performance standards, such as  better hard-target penetration, more consistent performance against soft targets and significantly increased distances of these effects.

But none of this matters because the military is surrendering to the environmental wackos.
 
2013-07-27 10:05:40 AM

Slartibartfaster: Wolf_Blitzer: ost US ammunition expenditure occurs on American soil at firing ranges and exercise grounds, especially during peacetime

US had a peacetime ? when ?


I think there was a few years in the early 90's...
 
2013-07-27 10:05:47 AM

Slartibartfaster: Wolf_Blitzer: ost US ammunition expenditure occurs on American soil at firing ranges and exercise grounds, especially during peacetime

US had a peacetime ? when ?


there was a week of it in the 70s
 
2013-07-27 10:05:58 AM

Rand's lacy underwear: uber humper: indoor ranges have to use ventilation systems to keep the lead out of the air -- which isn't necessary with frangible

Interesting, why?


no lead. And they break apart on impact with anything hard. Made of copper and tin power.

A heavy leather jacket may break it apart.
 
2013-07-27 10:06:17 AM

stirfrybry: Since copper has a higher melting point than lead, could we expect copper to require more energy to produce the same number of rounds?


Did you factor in the energy costs of environmental cleanup of the firing ranges used by our military?

Hint: If you're going to do a total cost comparison, you don't get to leave out the parts that don't support your case.
 
2013-07-27 10:09:16 AM

BiffDangler: Slartibartfaster: Wolf_Blitzer: ost US ammunition expenditure occurs on American soil at firing ranges and exercise grounds, especially during peacetime

US had a peacetime ? when ?

The carter administration.

That being said, I don't see how copper can perform as well as lead given it's lesser density


It doesn't in standard hardball config. But it makes hollow points with great and reliable expansion, so the spec ops guys are probably liking it. It'll be intersting to see if any of the military issue stuff makes it to the civillian market cheaper than the high dollar all copper rounds.
 
2013-07-27 10:09:33 AM

uber humper: Rand's lacy underwear: uber humper: indoor ranges have to use ventilation systems to keep the lead out of the air -- which isn't necessary with frangible

Interesting, why?

no lead. And they break apart on impact with anything hard. Made of copper and tin power.

A heavy leather jacket may break it apart.


www.shootingillustrated.com
 
2013-07-27 10:10:14 AM

J. Frank Parnell: Since the two metals are roughly the same in price, i'm going to assume lead has recently become slightly more expensive than copper.


A few quick searches indicate that copper is about $3/lb while lead is only about $1/lb

http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/lead/

Seeing as how Cu is 3x the cost of Pb, would it be feasible to instead keep the lead but build firing ranges with a huge waterproof liner underneath them and install a water treatment system for the runoff? Some sort of electrolytic reclamation system like they have for silver at the dentist's office or old photo processing places. Or just add some sulfate to precipitate the Pb. PbSO4 is pretty darn insoluble.

That or use Cu bullets and every few years dig the place up, shake out the copper rounds, and sell them off for scrap.
 
2013-07-27 10:12:24 AM
Back to the bronze age with hoplites and everything?
 
2013-07-27 10:14:36 AM
I suspect some pork spending in progress.  Maybe a the senator's brother in law sold the lead cleanup business and recently invested in a copper mine?
 
2013-07-27 10:15:37 AM
Let's hope the medics make it to the wounded before the copper scrappers do.
 
2013-07-27 10:16:00 AM
the next time we invade a country to dispose of a leader who won't give us oil we'll at least do it in an environmentally friendly way


The next time?  When was the previous time?  It certainly wasn't Iraq, because America was importing billions of barrels of Iraqi oil through the Port of Houston before the war.

Oh, wait... you're a victim of the revisionist history crowd's "repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth" strategy.  Sorry.  I'm used to dealing with facts.
 
2013-07-27 10:17:02 AM

Wolf_Blitzer: This is absolutely the right thing to do for the country's future, and the opposition amounts to nothing more than "if the greenies are for it, I'm against it!". Grow up.


While I don't disagree that lead-free rounds are the way to go, M855A1, the Army's new lead-free replacement for the old 5.56 green tip rounds are not a step forward.

M855A1 is less accurate and has worse flash characteristics than the old M855.  And the old M855 weren't all that accurate to begin with (threshold for them was 4 MOA)

I only hope the M80A1 rounds don't have the same issues.  If they do, well, I know a lot of guys that will keep using MK319 ammo instead
 
2013-07-27 10:17:05 AM

uber humper: no lead


Ah ok, that was my confusion. I always assumed frangible was the same makeup but cast differently or something.
 
2013-07-27 10:18:48 AM

Evil Mackerel: Let's hope the medics make it to the wounded before the copper scrappers do.


Look at the bright side, the wounded get all the benefits of copper bracelets without having to look like a hippy.
 
2013-07-27 10:19:25 AM

tungub: This sounds really expensive and really bad for the copper market. Not to mention it seems like a complete waste of copper, which is kind of a useful metal. Grrr.


Yes. Of course, but that's not the issue. It makes people feel better about themselves. If we can't do everything possible to placate concern trolls then the terrorists win.
 
2013-07-27 10:19:59 AM

uber humper: Evil Mackerel: Let's hope the medics make it to the wounded before the copper scrappers do.

Look at the bright side, the wounded get all the benefits of copper bracelets without having to look like a hippy.


That made me smile, thank you.
 
2013-07-27 10:21:40 AM

Great_Milenko: Green bullets, like the M855A1, have been touted for their enhanced performance standards, such as better hard-target penetration, more consistent performance against soft targets and significantly increased distances of these effects.

But none of this matters because the military is surrendering to the environmental wackos.


That is a Picatinny sales pitch, btw.  In tests by actual operators, it performed worse.
 
2013-07-27 10:23:33 AM

Wolf_Blitzer: How many times do we have to address this crap? Most US ammunition expenditure occurs on American soil at firing ranges and exercise grounds, especially during peacetime. Those ranges see incredibly heavy use, often for decades at a time. That lead leeches out of the spent rounds into the soil and groundwater, and has turned more than a few military bases into environmental disasters.

This is absolutely the right thing to do for the country's future, and the opposition amounts to nothing more than "if the greenies are for it, I'm against it!". Grow up.


What about the damage to the environment that naturally occuring lead ore does just sitting in the ground?

We should probably dig up as much as we can in order to preserve the environment.

I can even devise a plan to dispose of all that lead somewhere else....overseas....preferably in a country that has resources we need.
 
2013-07-27 10:24:23 AM

Slartibartfaster: Wolf_Blitzer: ost US ammunition expenditure occurs on American soil at firing ranges and exercise grounds, especially during peacetime

US had a peacetime ? when ?


misprint.
 
2013-07-27 10:24:27 AM
I'm old enough to remember the bombing of Serbia and how it was sold as 'clean', good and humane.  At that time, I thought it would be appropriate if we detonated some night-time air bursts over Belgrade (or wherever) that become 'smiley-face' fireworks displays.  I can also remember the hilarious exchange between journalists/reporters and Donald Rumsfeld over Afghanistan, when he was asked, "Why are we using such large bullets against these poorly armed insurgents?"  Rumsfeld answer was priceless:  "We are trying to kill them."

The bottom line is that any war is a MESS and there's no such thing as a 'surgical strike' or environmentally friendly munitions.  Obama even has the air force using 'green fuel' now at hugely inflated prices, but it doesn't make any difference.  'Carbon emissions' are that very last thing anyone will remember amongst the ruins on the ground.

The jihadis certainly don't give a sh*t.
 
2013-07-27 10:24:28 AM

Shadowknight: Slartibartfaster: US had a peacetime ? when ?

Sometime previous to the Spanish-American War.


The military was on pause for a period of time between the Mayaguez Incident and Desert One.
 
2013-07-27 10:26:18 AM

Four Horsemen of the Domestic Dispute: How about we stop using pennies, melt them down and make bullets.

And next time we go to war for oil -- let's at least come home with it.


What next? We stick the bullets up our asses so we have leverage over everyone we shoot?
 
2013-07-27 10:27:52 AM
Someone help me out here, but i would have guessed that copper would make for an inferior bullet, what with it having a smaller specific gravity than lead (8.96 compared to 13.56).
 
2013-07-27 10:28:00 AM
The military claims vastly improved performance with the new round.
 
2013-07-27 10:29:07 AM

Mock26: Someone help me out here, but i would have guessed that copper would make for an inferior bullet, what with it having a smaller specific gravity than lead (8.96 compared to 13.56).


Never mind.  13.56 is for mercury.  Lead is 11.35, so it is not that much higher than copper.
 
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