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(BBC)   Archbishop Desmond Tutu would rather go to hell than to a homophobic heaven   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 202
    More: Hero, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, god, lesbian people, Nobel Peace, Navanethem Pillay, punishable by death, apartheid  
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8029 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jul 2013 at 5:19 AM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-27 07:00:34 AM

NewportBarGuy: Praise be upon him, a decent human being above most others.


You know, i've had a lot of respect for this guy for years now, and this just reinforced it for me. Awesome tutu.
 
2013-07-27 07:00:49 AM

ybishop: [cdn.stripersonline.com image 500x396]


Odd picture for the thread considering they have opposing views on teh gheys.
 
2013-07-27 07:06:25 AM
And not to threadjack any more than I already have, but it's nice to see a prominent religious leader come out (as it were) in support of homosexuality. It makes a pleasant change from the norm, and I hope more Africans start listening to him.
 
2013-07-27 07:16:29 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: I disapprove of people getting face tattoos


why? Just like someone being homosexual, it's non of your business.
 
2013-07-27 07:17:56 AM
I can't tell you how big of a deal this is. In the United Methodist church, at the national level we are pushing to move to support gay marriage, however we get a lot of push back at the international level from the African and Asian delegations. To have a major religious figure come out of Africa and say something like this, it's a frickin massive deal and I am damned excited!
 
2013-07-27 07:20:03 AM
Me too
 
2013-07-27 07:25:26 AM
Old Man Winter

lev·i·ty/ˈlevətē/ Noun
Humor or frivolity, esp. the treatment of a serious matter with humor or in a manner lacking due respect.
 
2013-07-27 07:26:30 AM
I'd rather go to hell than serve the whims of a god who acts like an omnipotent five-year-old child.

/he wants you to suffer for not believing in him.
//but he loves you!
 
2013-07-27 07:30:43 AM
Wonderful. Now if he could do something about the rampant rape and killing of Somali immigrants ( In 2009, 28 percent of men in South Africa admitted to committing rape) and the place becoming a possible powder keg once Mandela dies, that would be even nicer.
 
2013-07-27 07:37:46 AM

log_jammin: BraveNewCheneyWorld: I disapprove of people getting face tattoos

why? Just like someone being homosexual, it's non of your business.


Ah, so we can only disapprove of things that directly affect us?  I'm sure you have plenty of opinions on things that don't affect you, but let me guess, because this is a hot button issue these days, and you want to be PC.. this is "different".
 
2013-07-27 07:38:24 AM

Copper Spork: So he doesn't believe in the God that's in the bible, then?


Which one?
 
2013-07-27 07:47:32 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Ah, so we can only disapprove of things that directly affect us?


I asked why you would care since it is none of your business. are you claiming it is your business?

BraveNewCheneyWorld: but let me guess, because this is a hot button issue these days, and you want to be PC.. this is "different".


or it could be that I don't give a shiat if people get face tattoos or that gay people have sex with each other.
 
2013-07-27 07:52:58 AM

staplermofo: This is nice and all, but it seems odd that it's getting press now. I mean, it's been in their constitution for years, and they're legally doing great with LGBT stuff even by Euro standards.


It is not odd in the least. Did you think the UN Human Rights people were actually going to single out the countries where the really nasty shiat is happening?

South Africa is Provincetown compared to Saudi Arabia, to name one of dozens. Even the map in TFA from Amnesty doesn't bother trying to evaluate the state of rights for gays in northern Africa.

And Uganda...where curb-stomp the gays is close to official state policy...is on the UN Human Rights Council along with charming gay-friendly destinations like Pakistan, Libya, Mauritania, and Kazakhstan.
 
2013-07-27 07:57:16 AM

Shedim: wildcardjack: I've read Dante and I fail to understand the downside of hell. I've also come to devalue pain as never being any worse than a sign of over doing something, and if you no longer have a body to worry about then there's no worries about any amount of pain involved.

The painful punishment is only symbolic of their sin - Dante's depiction of Hell is the prime example of Ironic Hell. The actual punishment of Hell is not what's happening to them in the various Circles; it's the total isolation from God. You are in Hell because God does not give a shiat about you. There's no redemption, no forgiveness and no way out once you're in there. All the souls in Hell feel this isolation from the Divine, even those that don't understand it, and that is the true source of their pain; the punishments are symbolic but ultimately incidental to the actual torment of Hell.


tl;dr
 
2013-07-27 08:00:01 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: log_jammin: BraveNewCheneyWorld: I disapprove of people getting face tattoos

why? Just like someone being homosexual, it's non of your business.

Ah, so we can only disapprove of things that directly affect us?  I'm sure you have plenty of opinions on things that don't affect you, but let me guess, because this is a hot button issue these days, and you want to be PC.. this is "different".


'Hey, look at me! I fly in the face of convention and don't show empathy OR compassion even though they're basic human emotions!'

/Trollers gunna troll.
 
2013-07-27 08:05:14 AM
Easier to say when neither exists.
 
2013-07-27 08:18:32 AM

Shedim: wildcardjack: I've read Dante and I fail to understand the downside of hell. I've also come to devalue pain as never being any worse than a sign of over doing something, and if you no longer have a body to worry about then there's no worries about any amount of pain involved.

The painful punishment is only symbolic of their sin - Dante's depiction of Hell is the prime example of Ironic Hell. The actual punishment of Hell is not what's happening to them in the various Circles; it's the total isolation from God. You are in Hell because God does not give a shiat about you. There's no redemption, no forgiveness and no way out once you're in there. All the souls in Hell feel this isolation from the Divine, even those that don't understand it, and that is the true source of their pain; the punishments are symbolic but ultimately incidental to the actual torment of Hell.


Succinct and to the point, but  that's assuming one has a delusional feeling of connection to Harry Potter.
 
2013-07-27 08:21:54 AM

Mid_mo_mad_man: MorrisBird: staplermofo: For all its size, Africa still only has a billion people with a GDP of 2 trillion USD, so it's behind India and China in both.  India and China were both made of a bunch of other countries and brutally colonized.  And almost all of Africa is in the African Union, so, you know, it's not super unreasonable to lump them all in one.

Yeah, it kind of is.

CSB time. One of my coworkers was a white guy raised in Kenya. He would tell people he was from Africa and people would tell he wasn't because he was white.


i am white, born and raised in Namibia and South Africa. I think the clueless people would be amazed to see how many white people actually live in Africa. My ancestors are French Hugenots. But i speak Afrikaans, which is close to Dutch.

/ we are bit mongrelish...
 
2013-07-27 08:26:35 AM

wildcardjack: Succinct and to the point, but that's assuming one has a delusional feeling of connection to Harry Potter.


Thanks. I believe it would have had a lot more of an effect in the 14th century (when Dante wrote it) compared to now. It's main effect nowadays is being one of the two sources people go to for depictions of Hell (Milton being the other one).

On a vaguely related note, would any Catholics here know if the Catholic Church still considers suicide a mortal sin (i.e. go to Hell, go directly to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200)?
 
2013-07-27 08:26:42 AM
S. A might have the gay rights thing on their constitution but the homophobic violence against them is still very bad.
I have so much respect for Tutu for speaking out against bigotry and homophobia.
 
2013-07-27 08:32:27 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: log_jammin: BraveNewCheneyWorld: I disapprove of people getting face tattoos

why? Just like someone being homosexual, it's non of your business.

Ah, so we can only disapprove of things that directly affect us?  I'm sure you have plenty of opinions on things that don't affect you, but let me guess, because this is a hot button issue these days, and you want to be PC.. this is "different".


Hot button issue? PC? My god man, did you just beam here to Planet Earth? I'm 43 years old and this was a huge topic since I've been old enough to be aware of it. Have you lived your life in such a sheltered little world that homophobia crossed your mind until you read it on the news?

WOW. I think your opinions on anything need to be taken with a serious grain of salt. I dunno, maybe go make some friends or something.
 
2013-07-27 08:34:25 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Shedim: BraveNewCheneyWorld: You can disapprove of homosexuality without being homophobic.

How?

Look up the definition of homophobic.  It should be pretty damn apparent if you have an IQ above 80


'HomoPHOBIC', darlin', implies that you fear homosexuality, either your own or others'. It should be pretty apparent to anyone with an IQ above 80 that common usage of word has impact at least as great as strict dictionary definition.  Now go wipe your chin and and rephrase.
 
2013-07-27 08:34:46 AM
He's a conformist, not a hero.
 
2013-07-27 08:35:04 AM
And it's good to see Archbishop Tutu practices what Jesus preached. What a nicer world it would be if American Christians could do the same.

But they're too busy yelling at everyone for being PC (hehe how old is that term now anyway? I think the American Christians were screaming that in Reagan's first term).
 
2013-07-27 08:38:48 AM

gottagopee: It should be pretty apparent to anyone with an IQ above 80 that common usage of word has impact at least as great as strict dictionary definition.


Dictionary definitions usually come from societal use, not the other way around. Language is always changing. The homophobes like to claim the word still means what it did in psychology texts in 1950, but it's long gone past that, and Merriam-Webster backs that up.

They just don't like being called cowards, cause then maybe the other boys will think they are queer.
 
2013-07-27 08:48:32 AM

Confabulat: gottagopee: It should be pretty apparent to anyone with an IQ above 80 that common usage of word has impact at least as great as strict dictionary definition.

Dictionary definitions usually come from societal use, not the other way around. Language is always changing. The homophobes like to claim the word still means what it did in psychology texts in 1950, but it's long gone past that, and Merriam-Webster backs that up.

They just don't like being called cowards, cause then maybe the other boys will think they are queer.


On a somewhat related note, what does the word 'racist' actually mean these days (at least on fark)? ...because it gets tossed around like a completely generic insult with little regard for the dictionary-definition of the term.
 
2013-07-27 08:48:57 AM
Tutu seems to believe that the gays are going to hell. Odd theology. Hurry up Desmond Tutu. Send us a report upon arrival. I know the fun girls are there, so I'm already packed. See ya there, weirdo.
 
2013-07-27 08:49:26 AM
Tolerance does not equal Acceptance

It is more than a bit disingenuous to claim moral superiority because you accept or approve of something.

"Oh yeah, I think the things that I like are just nifty, and that makes me a good person", as it were.

The real moral winner is the fellow who does not approve, who does not accept, yet still tolerates the things that he does not approve or accept.

But the majority of the posters here would seem to demand that nothing short of full acceptance and approval of homosexuality will do. The amusing thing is that these posters don't view themselves as bigots -- they consider themselves quite open-minded.
 
2013-07-27 08:49:51 AM
I don't what kind of Hell his denomination believes in, but if it anything like what fundamentalist Southern Baptists believe in the U.S. then he would prefer homophobic heaven.  Indeed he would prefer racist heaven.  He would prefer Nazi heaven.
Pain, desire, despair, hopeless beyond anything any human has ever suffered without any let up lasting forever is what Hell is supposed to be.  It is not a mere a bad prison with no chance of parole.

Of course any God that set up such a system would be utterly unjust and immoral, but that is another issue.
 
2013-07-27 08:54:19 AM

jshine: On a somewhat related note, what does the word 'racist' actually mean these days (at least on fark)?


You got me. Something about a little black kid but I can't read lips.
 
2013-07-27 09:04:26 AM
dnra:
anybody Catholic that doesn't hate *the gays* is ok with me: transforming faith has to come from groundswell.  (not astroturf)
besides, i saw the Archbishop on PBS forever ago and he was fascinating.
2cents!
 
2013-07-27 09:07:09 AM
I'd rather go to Kiddie Fiddler's Green than Furry Valhalla, but you don't see anyone nominating me for sainthood.
 
2013-07-27 09:12:00 AM

gottagopee: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Shedim: BraveNewCheneyWorld: You can disapprove of homosexuality without being homophobic.

How?

Look up the definition of homophobic.  It should be pretty damn apparent if you have an IQ above 80

'HomoPHOBIC', darlin', implies that you fear homosexuality, either your own or others'. It should be pretty apparent to anyone with an IQ above 80 that common usage of word has impact at least as great as strict dictionary definition.  Now go wipe your chin and and rephrase.


Disapproval isn't a phobia.  But thanks for proving that the people on your side don't know what the hell they're talking about, even though you failed to follow the conversation and thought I was the one in need of correction.

Confabulat: gottagopee: It should be pretty apparent to anyone with an IQ above 80 that common usage of word has impact at least as great as strict dictionary definition.

Dictionary definitions usually come from societal use, not the other way around. Language is always changing. The homophobes like to claim the word still means what it did in psychology texts in 1950, but it's long gone past that, and Merriam-Webster backs that up.

They just don't like being called cowards, cause then maybe the other boys will think they are queer.


The webster definition AGAIN..  : irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against

Sorry, that doesn't mean disapproval.  You lose, now go take your derp and shiat all over some other thread with your ignorant twaddle.
 
2013-07-27 09:13:50 AM
it is more than the fear of homosexuals.  it's the fear of gay people in general
 
2013-07-27 09:13:59 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: jchuffyman: BraveNewCheneyWorld: You can disapprove of homosexuality without being homophobic.

I disapprove of homosexuality in the sense that I would never engage in homosexual acts...because I'm not gay. Disapproving of other people doing it? Yeah, you're a bigot and a homophobe

I disapprove of people getting face tattoos, but I don't hate them if they do, nor do I fear them.  But keep up that willful ignorance if it makes you feel like a better social justice warrior of the internet!



Do you "disapprove" of people being black?  Just curious.
 
2013-07-27 09:20:02 AM

Natsumi: Mid_mo_mad_man: MorrisBird: staplermofo: For all its size, Africa still only has a billion people with a GDP of 2 trillion USD, so it's behind India and China in both.  India and China were both made of a bunch of other countries and brutally colonized.  And almost all of Africa is in the African Union, so, you know, it's not super unreasonable to lump them all in one.

Yeah, it kind of is.

CSB time. One of my coworkers was a white guy raised in Kenya. He would tell people he was from Africa and people would tell he wasn't because he was white.

i am white, born and raised in Namibia and South Africa. I think the clueless people would be amazed to see how many white people actually live in Africa. My ancestors are French Hugenots. But i speak Afrikaans, which is close to Dutch.

/ we are bit mongrelish...




He was from a coffee farm in the Kenyan highlands.
 
2013-07-27 09:22:02 AM

log_jammin: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Ah, so we can only disapprove of things that directly affect us?

I asked why you would care since it is none of your business. are you claiming it is your business?


By your logic I am completely validated in my non-interest in the fact that last month a lesbian was found dead, having been sexually assaulted with a toilet brush. It is always good to know that people I do not see, hear or smell and thus do not affect me in any way do not matter. Thanks.
 
2013-07-27 09:47:12 AM
 
2013-07-27 09:47:20 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: The webster definition AGAIN..  : irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against

Sorry, that doesn't mean disapproval.  You lose, now go take your derp and shiat all over some other thread with your ignorant twaddle.


I haven't lost anything, dude. However, you've been a pretty interesting case subject on the backwards confused dimwits on the wrong side of history who never heard of gay rights until the read about it online. That's you, right? Never had any close gay friends in your life? Never seen the struggles they've been going through? Cause I'm straight, but I've grown up around gay people my whole life and for me, this is a very personal subject.

You really never had any gay friends, huh? Was that because they were too scared to tell you, or because you were busy beating them up?

You want to fight over the vague meanings of various words, when the fact is, you're still an really shocking example of American ignorance in 2013. I think I'll let you obsess over your little wordplay if it comforts you.
 
2013-07-27 10:00:32 AM
There's no buttsex in Heaven, so why would the gays be interested in it?

(Actually, there's no sex of any kind, so I could make the same argument for the rest of us.  Still, it is what it is.)
 
2013-07-27 10:01:12 AM
I'd still rather break bread with Dawkins than Desmond Tutu, to be honest.
 
2013-07-27 10:03:30 AM

hubiestubert: [infobeautiful2.s3.amazonaws.com image 550x614]


They should never have made a sequel to China.
 
2013-07-27 10:05:21 AM

DerAppie: log_jammin: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Ah, so we can only disapprove of things that directly affect us?

I asked why you would care since it is none of your business. are you claiming it is your business?

By your logic I am completely validated in my non-interest in the fact that last month a lesbian was found dead, having been sexually assaulted with a toilet brush. It is always good to know that people I do not see, hear or smell and thus do not affect me in any way do not matter. Thanks.


so a gay couple kissing is just like a person being sexually assaulted. got it.
 
2013-07-27 10:18:45 AM

Paris1127: [news.bbcimg.co.uk image 464x495]
Morocco, Western Sahara, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt are apparently not a part of Africa... Nor are the island nations generally listed as part of Africa (Madagascar, Comoros, etc).


www.dartmouth.edu

There's nothing especially weird about it.  They're in Africa geographically.  But Egypt, at the very least, is culturally and politically part of the Middle East.  It's not that different from México being part of North America geographically yet part of Latin America in all other regards.  Or the way Turkey both is and is not part of Europe.  Or Australia and New Zealand being "Western" nations.

 The mapping of sociopolitical/cultural regions to geographic ones just isn't that neat.
 
2013-07-27 10:21:37 AM

Confabulat: ginandbacon: I think homosexuality is illegal in all of those countries but I have a lot of gay friends that have had wonderful vacations in Morocco. (Admittedly not lately.) They are all predominantly Muslim I believe except for Ethiopia and Eritrea? It still seems odd to not include them in "a map of Africa."

I dunno though. The wording is poor but Africa is really really really big. At some point you have to scale in further or you may as well just put everything on there and call it Earth. It's not like the USA or Australia or Russia or China or Canada or other big places either, at least those places are united by a single government.


You could even say Africa was a big continent, if you're a geographer.
 
2013-07-27 10:27:11 AM
Shedim:
On a vaguely related note, would any Catholics here know if the Catholic Church still considers suicide a mortal sin (i.e. go to Hell, go directly to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200)?

I don't think they still believe you are sent directly to hell for that.  My understanding is that they believe you must have some sort of underlying mental illness going on to be considering suicide and are therefore not in total control of your own actions.  At least, this is what I was told by a priest several years ago and I know of one Catholic who committed suicide and there were no problems getting a priest to officiate at the funeral or with burial arrangements.

On topic, good to see Tutu speaking out about this.  I have always had respect for the man, but this has definitely increased it.
 
2013-07-27 10:39:45 AM
BraveNewCheneyWorld:
The webster definition AGAIN..  : irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against

Sorry, that doesn't mean disapproval.  You lose, now go take your derp and shiat all over some other thread with your ignorant twaddle.


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then chances are pretty good that it's a duck. The only person you're fooling with this kind of sophistry is yourself.
 
2013-07-27 10:40:45 AM

Kiwimann: BraveNewCheneyWorld: jchuffyman: BraveNewCheneyWorld: You can disapprove of homosexuality without being homophobic.

I disapprove of homosexuality in the sense that I would never engage in homosexual acts...because I'm not gay. Disapproving of other people doing it? Yeah, you're a bigot and a homophobe

I disapprove of people getting face tattoos, but I don't hate them if they do, nor do I fear them.  But keep up that willful ignorance if it makes you feel like a better social justice warrior of the internet!


Do you "disapprove" of people being black?  Just curious.


I imagine, Kiwimann, that BraveNewCheneyWorld does disapprove of idiots like you.  It never ceases to amaze me how (1) people equate behaviors with traits (perhaps you can be born homosexual, but we can all choose whether to act on our impulses, whatever they are) and (2) how so many people, even here, don't understand what a phobia is and how it differs from something they disagree with.  This goes to "hate" too.  I'm sorry, I also don't like it when people lie to me, but just because I disapprove of that doesn't mean I hate the person who lied to me.

I also find the double standard around this debate interesting.  No one can suggest that a homosexual is acting on choice, but anyone who does can be said to be "fearful", not simply "disapproving".  So, you can define us but we can't do the same to you?  Now I see what you really want approval for.  You want approval for your hypocrisy, idiocy, and intolerance for anyone who would disagree with you.  Great, thanks, nice to see that is cleared up.
 
2013-07-27 10:42:46 AM
One more thing; people always say "love is love".  So, when you say you love a family member, somehow, that isn't a different form of love?

Oh, that's right, another double standard.  Apparently love does differ, but only in the ways you say, right?
 
2013-07-27 10:44:27 AM

Ecaps: I'd still rather break bread with Dawkins than Desmond Tutu, to be honest.


because bigotry is OK when it's against Christians
 
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