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(Jerusalem Post)   Israeli official: Non-Jewish Israeli citizens shouldn't vote in any referendum on a peace agreement. They should be sent on trains to special camps instead   (jpost.com) divider line 402
    More: Asinine, Israeli government, Israelis, Israel's Jewish, peace treaties, Saeb Erekat, Golan Heights, Israeli citizen, Naftali Bennett  
•       •       •

2280 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Jul 2013 at 1:31 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-26 09:05:42 AM  
It's just one random guy's thought and not indicative of any official policy proposal.
 
2013-07-26 09:14:10 AM  
Minister Silvan Shalom said Friday that no Israeli prime minister would be able to implement a peace agreement with the Palestinians

Period.  Full stop.  Don't need to go on any further.
 
2013-07-26 09:20:56 AM  
And why do we support this theocracy again?
 
2013-07-26 09:28:38 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?


Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.
 
2013-07-26 09:33:45 AM  

bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.


Have you read Israeli law?  That's like saying non-Muslims are allowed to be citizens of Iran so Iran is not a theocracy.
 
2013-07-26 09:39:45 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.

Have you read Israeli law?  That's like saying non-Muslims are allowed to be citizens of Iran so Iran is not a theocracy.


I'm Israeli and live here.

I'm taking issue with your assumptions. You state that Israel is a theocracy, that would mean:

1.) Judaism is the official religion of the State of Israel
2.) Jewish religious authorities run the government

Neither one is true. Israel does not have an official religion (although the religion of Judaism informs some laws such as the closure of government-run transportation on Shabbat). It is a country based on Judaism as an ethnicity. The Chief Rabbinate is a parallel institution to the government and only has authority over religious-centric things such as marriage and conversion -- and only when an Israeli citizen chooses to deal with the Rabbinate (which is increasingly being ignored by more and more Israelis for various reasons). And, of course, the government is run by Benjamin Netanyahu, who is not a rabbi. The (symbolic) president, Shimon Peres, is not a rabbi.

Prove to me that 1) and 2) are true, and then I will concede that Israel is a theocracy. If you cannot prove that, then admit you are wrong.
 
2013-07-26 09:54:10 AM  

bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.

Have you read Israeli law?  That's like saying non-Muslims are allowed to be citizens of Iran so Iran is not a theocracy.

I'm Israeli and live here.

I'm taking issue with your assumptions. You state that Israel is a theocracy, that would mean:

1.) Judaism is the official religion of the State of Israel
2.) Jewish religious authorities run the government

Neither one is true. Israel does not have an official religion (although the religion of Judaism informs some laws such as the closure of government-run transportation on Shabbat). It is a country based on Judaism as an ethnicity. The Chief Rabbinate is a parallel institution to the government and only has authority over religious-centric things such as marriage and conversion -- and only when an Israeli citizen chooses to deal with the Rabbinate (which is increasingly being ignored by more and more Israelis for various reasons). And, of course, the government is run by Benjamin Netanyahu, who is not a rabbi. The (symbolic) president, Shimon Peres, is not a rabbi.

Prove to me that 1) and 2) are true, and then I will concede that Israel is a theocracy. If you cannot prove that, then admit you are wrong.


You do have to admit that some Jews are more equal than others.

/yes i am trolling
//mostly
 
2013-07-26 10:01:17 AM  

bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.

Have you read Israeli law?  That's like saying non-Muslims are allowed to be citizens of Iran so Iran is not a theocracy.

I'm Israeli and live here.

I'm taking issue with your assumptions. You state that Israel is a theocracy, that would mean:

1.) Judaism is the official religion of the State of Israel
2.) Jewish religious authorities run the government

Neither one is true. Israel does not have an official religion (although the religion of Judaism informs some laws such as the closure of government-run transportation on Shabbat). It is a country based on Judaism as an ethnicity. The Chief Rabbinate is a parallel institution to the government and only has authority over religious-centric things such as marriage and conversion -- and only when an Israeli citizen chooses to deal with the Rabbinate (which is increasingly being ignored by more and more Israelis for various reasons). And, of course, the government is run by Benjamin Netanyahu, who is not a rabbi. The (symbolic) president, Shimon Peres, is not a rabbi.

Prove to me that 1) and 2) are true, and then I will concede that Israel is a theocracy. If you cannot prove that, then admit you are wrong.


If that is your definition, then yes - I am wrong under those assumptions.
 
2013-07-26 10:04:13 AM  
"no Israeli prime minister would be able to implement a peace agreement with the Palestinians if a referendum on the issue showed that a majority of Israelis supported such a deal"

Translated to US politics:

"Congress would not be able to drum up enough support to pass a bill if it was shown that President Obama had ever supported any of its provisions."

// achi, you're not helping
// something like 80+% of the country identifies as Jewish, so any referendum that passes will necessarily have huge support from Israeli Jews
// aw, the chilonim are running the show now? Farking get used to it, dingleberry
 
2013-07-26 10:28:00 AM  

bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.

Have you read Israeli law?  That's like saying non-Muslims are allowed to be citizens of Iran so Iran is not a theocracy.

I'm Israeli and live here.

I'm taking issue with your assumptions. You state that Israel is a theocracy, that would mean:

1.) Judaism is the official religion of the State of Israel
2.) Jewish religious authorities run the government

Neither one is true. Israel does not have an official religion (although the religion of Judaism informs some laws such as the closure of government-run transportation on Shabbat). It is a country based on Judaism as an ethnicity. The Chief Rabbinate is a parallel institution to the government and only has authority over religious-centric things such as marriage and conversion -- and only when an Israeli citizen chooses to deal with the Rabbinate (which is increasingly being ignored by more and more Israelis for various reasons). And, of course, the government is run by Benjamin Netanyahu, who is not a rabbi. The (symbolic) president, Shimon Peres, is not a rabbi.

Prove to me that 1) and 2) are true, and then I will concede that Israel is a theocracy. If you cannot prove that, then admit you are wrong.


I could be wrong, but I think someone just got told.

[ohsnap.jpg]
 
2013-07-26 10:32:29 AM  

bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.


I agree that it's not entirely a theocracy, though Judaism as a religion does have substantial influence on the Israeli government (you refer to "religious-centric things such as marriage and conversion," but those "religious-centric" things have non-religious civic consequences, particularly with regard to the Law of Return).  Also, the bolded statement is not 100% true - if that was universally the case, then Oswald Rufeisen/Brother Daniel would have been granted citizenship under the Law of Return.
 
2013-07-26 11:41:09 AM  
And... we're going green soon for Shabbat!
 
2013-07-26 11:44:54 AM  
I think things would settle down if the Jewish state weren't chock full of these types:

a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com
 
2013-07-26 11:46:55 AM  

bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.


I'm not sure discriminating on ethnicity is much better.
 
2013-07-26 11:49:49 AM  

bostonguy: 1.) Judaism is the official religion of the State of Israel
2.) Jewish religious authorities run the government

Neither one is true. Israel does not have an official religion (although the religion of Judaism informs some laws such as the closure of government-run transportation on Shabbat).


So it's not so much a de jure theocracy, but rather a de facto theocracy.
 
2013-07-26 11:57:12 AM  
There is a word for this.

Apartheid
 
2013-07-26 12:06:48 PM  

Lsherm: bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.

I'm not sure discriminating on ethnicity is much better.


And what's wrong with that? Ireland was wrong to give preferential citizenship to descendents of Irish people worldwide i the 1990s? It's wrong for a nation of people to want to preserve themselves for the future? It's wrong for England to look out for the English and for France to look out for the Franks and for Israel to look out for the Jews? The United States is one of the rare non-ethnically based states in all of human history. (Empires controlled many different peoples.)
 
2013-07-26 12:09:36 PM  

impaler: bostonguy: 1.) Judaism is the official religion of the State of Israel
2.) Jewish religious authorities run the government

Neither one is true. Israel does not have an official religion (although the religion of Judaism informs some laws such as the closure of government-run transportation on Shabbat).

So it's not so much a de jure theocracy, but rather a de facto theocracy.


No, you're taking one specific example of making a judgement on a whole country. There are very few country-wide laws based on Jewish religion that are just the result of political compromise between the secular founders and the religious population in early Israeli history. The public-transportation thing is just one of a tiny few. There's private transportation on Shabbat. It's not illegal to eat or sell pork and shellfish. And so on. Israeli is officially a secular state for the Jewish people.
 
2013-07-26 12:10:03 PM  
Israel may not be a theocracy (in the same sense that Oklahoma and South Carolina aren't technically theocracies), but the idea that Jews are god's chosen people, who are special, and more equal than others, is at the very foundation of their government and legal system.

And they most certainly are an apartheid state that has undue influence on American politics.

/let the desert savages kill each other without our taxpayer dollars
 
2013-07-26 12:10:35 PM  

bostonguy: The United States is one of the rare non-ethnically based states in all of human history.


Ergo, non-ethnically based states are the best.

QED.

USA! USA! USA!
 
2013-07-26 12:13:59 PM  
Fark It:  the idea that Jews are god's chosen people, who are special, and more equal than others, is at the very foundation of their government and legal system.

No. David Ben Gurion and other secular founders of the modern state did not believe that at all. They thought religion, including the religion of Judaism, was antiquated and would soon disappear. They founded Israel simply as a state for the Jewish people. Full stop. Every other nation (people) had a state, so the Jews should have one, too.
 
2013-07-26 12:16:06 PM  
bostonguy

...and for France to look out for the Franks...

Nitpick, but most French people aren't descended from Franks. Most people of Frankish descent in Europe are German, Flemish or Dutch.

/back to your regularly scheduled debate
 
2013-07-26 12:17:15 PM  
You know who else supported the idea of ethnically homogenous states?
 
2013-07-26 12:17:37 PM  

bostonguy: Fark It:  the idea that Jews are god's chosen people, who are special, and more equal than others, is at the very foundation of their government and legal system.

No. David Ben Gurion and other secular founders of the modern state did not believe that at all. They thought religion, including the religion of Judaism, was antiquated and would soon disappear. They founded Israel simply as a state for the Jewish people. Full stop. Every other nation (people) had a state, so the Jews should have one, too.


static.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-26 12:18:29 PM  

bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.


Notsomuch.  My younger brother married an Israeli and in order for the marriage to be recognized by the state of Israel he would have had to undergo a "ritual" circumsion.  My dad (a survivor of the Holocaust) was not amused when his future daughter in law insisted he prove he was Jewish.
Obviously the tattoo from the camp was not enough.
/Happy ending, they got a divorce
//Dad's actual comment "The farking Nazi's didn't ask me to prove it"
 
2013-07-26 12:18:40 PM  

Fark It: bostonguy: Fark It:  the idea that Jews are god's chosen people, who are special, and more equal than others, is at the very foundation of their government and legal system.

No. David Ben Gurion and other secular founders of the modern state did not believe that at all. They thought religion, including the religion of Judaism, was antiquated and would soon disappear. They founded Israel simply as a state for the Jewish people. Full stop. Every other nation (people) had a state, so the Jews should have one, too.

[static.tumblr.com image 500x282]


Yes. Really.
 
2013-07-26 12:21:01 PM  

bostonguy: impaler: bostonguy: 1.) Judaism is the official religion of the State of Israel
2.) Jewish religious authorities run the government

Neither one is true. Israel does not have an official religion (although the religion of Judaism informs some laws such as the closure of government-run transportation on Shabbat).

So it's not so much a de jure theocracy, but rather a de facto theocracy.

No, you're taking one specific example of making a judgement on a whole country. There are very few country-wide laws based on Jewish religion that are just the result of political compromise between the secular founders and the religious population in early Israeli history. The public-transportation thing is just one of a tiny few. There's private transportation on Shabbat. It's not illegal to eat or sell pork and shellfish. And so on. Israeli is officially a secular state for the Jewish people.


Talk to me when the residents of Mea Shearim actually serve in the IDF and the rest of the Haredi do something useful other than act like they run things.
 
2013-07-26 12:22:04 PM  

Zunigene: bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.

Notsomuch.  My younger brother married an Israeli and in order for the marriage to be recognized by the state of Israel he would have had to undergo a "ritual" circumsion.  My dad (a survivor of the Holocaust) was not amused when his future daughter in law insisted he prove he was Jewish.
Obviously the tattoo from the camp was not enough.
/Happy ending, they got a divorce
//Dad's actual comment "The farking Nazi's didn't ask me to prove it"


Again, there's an important distinction. Religion in Israel is not administered by the government. It is administered by the Chief Rabbinate. The government just recognizes the marriages performed by the Rabbinate (or those performed abroad). So, to get married in Israel, you have to submit to the Rabbinate's rules (which, admittedly, are insane). Or fly to another country, get married, and then have the Israeli government recognize it out of international treaty obligations.

There is no civil marriage in Israel. But the current government, thankfully, is trying to get that going.
 
2013-07-26 12:23:23 PM  

Zunigene: Talk to me when the residents of Mea Shearim actually serve in the IDF and the rest of the Haredi do something useful other than act like they run things.


I hope they will -- the haredim anger me to no end. There's a bill working its way through the government right now that will address that (we hope). And the haredim are pissed off. (Good!)
 
2013-07-26 12:24:11 PM  

bostonguy: Zunigene: bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.

Notsomuch.  My younger brother married an Israeli and in order for the marriage to be recognized by the state of Israel he would have had to undergo a "ritual" circumsion.  My dad (a survivor of the Holocaust) was not amused when his future daughter in law insisted he prove he was Jewish.
Obviously the tattoo from the camp was not enough.
/Happy ending, they got a divorce
//Dad's actual comment "The farking Nazi's didn't ask me to prove it"

Again, there's an important distinction. Religion in Israel is not administered by the government. It is administered by the Chief Rabbinate. The government just recognizes the marriages performed by the Rabbinate (or those performed abroad). So, to get married in Israel, you have to submit to the Rabbinate's rules (which, admittedly, are insane). Or fly to another country, get married, and then have the Israeli government recognize it out of international treaty obligations.

There is no civil marriage in Israel. But the current government, thankfully, is trying to get that going.


The government of Israel will not recognize a marriage done outside of its borders unless its done according to the Chief Rabbinate.
Ask me how I know
 
2013-07-26 12:25:26 PM  

Zunigene: The government of Israel will not recognize a marriage done outside of its borders unless its done according to the Chief Rabbinate.
Ask me how I know


Tell that to my two friends who got married in Cyprus, came back to Israel, and are now legally married. Israel even recognizes same-sex marriages performed abroad.
 
2013-07-26 12:26:57 PM  
Tell that to my poor brother whose marriage was not recognized (a blessing in disguise).
 
2013-07-26 12:28:35 PM  

bostonguy: Fark It: bostonguy: Fark It:  the idea that Jews are god's chosen people, who are special, and more equal than others, is at the very foundation of their government and legal system.

No. David Ben Gurion and other secular founders of the modern state did not believe that at all. They thought religion, including the religion of Judaism, was antiquated and would soon disappear. They founded Israel simply as a state for the Jewish people. Full stop. Every other nation (people) had a state, so the Jews should have one, too.

[static.tumblr.com image 500x282]

Yes. Really.


You can't, in the same breath, claim that Israel is secular, and was founded on secular principles, and then say that Israel was founded "as a state for the Jewish people."
 
2013-07-26 12:28:36 PM  

Zunigene: Tell that to my poor brother whose marriage was not recognized (a blessing in disguise).


Maybe your brother tried to have the marriage get recognized before Israel started to recognize all weddings performed abroad? I'm not sure what year that started.
 
2013-07-26 12:30:50 PM  
Fark It

You can't, in the same breath, claim that Israel is secular, and was founded on secular principles, and then say that Israel was founded "as a state for the Jewish people."

Why not? Wasn't Zionism a largely-secular movement?
 
2013-07-26 12:31:47 PM  

Fark It: You can't, in the same breath, claim that Israel is secular, and was founded on secular principles, and then say that Israel was founded "as a state for the Jewish people."


Yes. I can. There are two aspects to Judaism:

1. Jewish by ethnicity
2. Jewish by religion

It overlaps. An ethnic Jew may or may not be religious. A person can choose to become Jewish by religion (via conversion) and then becomes "adopted" in ethnic terms. The secular founders of Israel were the first type -- they wanted to found a state for all Jews (ethnicity), whether or not they were religious.
 
2013-07-26 12:33:14 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: Fark It

You can't, in the same breath, claim that Israel is secular, and was founded on secular principles, and then say that Israel was founded "as a state for the Jewish people."

Why not? Wasn't Zionism a largely-secular movement?


Yes, and that's why there were very, very few religious Zionists until after 1967. Until then, most religious Jews thought it was sinful to try to recreate Israel before the Messiah had arrived to do it himself. Most of the ultra-Orthodox today still think it was (and is) sinful.
 
2013-07-26 12:34:10 PM  

bostonguy: 1. Jewish by ethnicity


OK, then you're an apartheid state.

So much better than a theocracy.....
 
2013-07-26 12:43:54 PM  

Fark It: bostonguy: 1. Jewish by ethnicity

OK, then you're an apartheid state.

So much better than a theocracy.....


Someone doesn't know what "apartheid" means. So England is an apartheid state (because it's English by ethnicity)? And so on for nearly every country in the world?
 
2013-07-26 12:44:01 PM  
This latest round of "negotiations" is because Israel figured out a new way to fark Palestinians over.

/has low expectations
 
2013-07-26 12:47:40 PM  

bostonguy: Zunigene: Tell that to my poor brother whose marriage was not recognized (a blessing in disguise).

Maybe your brother tried to have the marriage get recognized before Israel started to recognize all weddings performed abroad? I'm not sure what year that started.


Could be.  After the Rabbinate required my brother to get ritually recircumcised and wanted my Mom and Dad to prove they were Jewish (despite being registered at Yad Vashem) I gave up on Israel.
 
2013-07-26 12:50:05 PM  

bostonguy: Fark It: bostonguy: 1. Jewish by ethnicity

OK, then you're an apartheid state.

So much better than a theocracy.....

Someone doesn't know what "apartheid" means. So England is an apartheid state (because it's English by ethnicity)? And so on for nearly every country in the world?


Show me England's official policy of racial/ethnic segregation.
 
2013-07-26 12:50:34 PM  

themindiswatching: This latest round of "negotiations" is because Israel figured out a new way to fark Palestinians over.

/has low expectations


Nothing happened until John Kerry arrived, so I think he and/or Barak Obama really want to solve it and get known in the history books forever.

/also has low expectations
 
2013-07-26 12:54:29 PM  

Fark It: bostonguy: Fark It: bostonguy: 1. Jewish by ethnicity

OK, then you're an apartheid state.

So much better than a theocracy.....

Someone doesn't know what "apartheid" means. So England is an apartheid state (because it's English by ethnicity)? And so on for nearly every country in the world?

Show me England's official policy of racial/ethnic segregation.


Israel doesn't have an official, internal policy of racial and/or ethnic segregation. All citizens of Israel can live and work anywhere in Israel and live their lives as equally free as each other.

Is there discrimination between people? Sure. Just like anywhere else. There are Arab towns and villages partly because a lot of Jews won't rent to Arabs. But that is not official government policy -- that's just individual people being jerks.

Now, it is different in the West Bank -- that's just a crazy clusterfark. But I'm just talking about Israel proper.
 
2013-07-26 01:00:21 PM  

bostonguy: All citizens of Israel can live and work anywhere in Israel and live their lives as equally free as each other.


But they might not be able to vote for this measure.  That is what this is about.

And while Israel may "officially" not have a segregation policy, Arab Israelis are discriminated against and treated like second class citizens.

And what about the millions of people living in the West Bank under Israeli occupation? You're right, that isn't apartheid, that is occupation.
 
2013-07-26 01:00:30 PM  
By the way, I just rejoined TotalFark, and I like the civil discussion here before it goes full green. (Before trolls and whatnot.) Knew there was a reason I missed it!
 
2013-07-26 01:02:09 PM  
Yahweh Mit Uns! The settlers need Lebensraum!
 
2013-07-26 01:03:16 PM  

vernonFL: bostonguy: All citizens of Israel can live and work anywhere in Israel and live their lives as equally free as each other.

But they might not be able to vote for this measure.  That is what this is about.

And while Israel may "officially" not have a segregation policy, Arab Israelis are discriminated against and treated like second class citizens.

And what about the millions of people living in the West Bank under Israeli occupation? You're right, that isn't apartheid, that is occupation.


Oh, they'll get to vote for it. If the government actually tried to let only Jews vote in a referendum, the courts would strike it down in a heartbeat -- as they should.

Second: So are black people in America. So, is the United States an apartheid state? Apartheid is a systemic, official, government policy singling out an entire ethnic group to be treated differently in all aspects of life. Discrimination by individuals in everyday life is unfortunate and horrible, but it is not apartheid.

Third: I wasn't speaking about the West Bank, which is so complex and a gigantic clusterfark. I'm speaking only about Israel proper.
 
2013-07-26 01:04:03 PM  

bostonguy: Israel doesn't have an official, internal policy of racial and/or ethnic segregation. All citizens of Israel can live and work anywhere in Israel and live their lives as equally free as each other.



Moments ago:

bostonguy: Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.


bostonguy: It is a country based on Judaism as an ethnicity.


bostonguy: Lsherm: bostonguy: Benevolent Misanthrope: And why do we support this theocracy again?

Not a theocracy. Israeli defines itself as a Jewish state based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion. People who are only 1/4 Jewish and not Jews themselves are eligible for automatic citizenship.


(pay attention to this part)I'm not sure discriminating on ethnicity is much better.

And what's wrong with that? Ireland was wrong to give preferential citizenship to descendents of Irish people worldwide i the 1990s? It's wrong for a nation of people to want to preserve themselves for the future? It's wrong for England to look out for the English and for France to look out for the Franks and for Israel to look out for the Jews? The United States is one of the rare non-ethnically based states in all of human history. (Empires controlled many different peoples.)
 
2013-07-26 01:06:20 PM  

bostonguy: Second: So are black people in America. So, is the United States an apartheid state?


We were under Jim Crow.
 
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