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(Opposing Views)   Cops go to the wrong address, scare a 72-year-old man, and then shoot him dead. Their excuse? The lighting was bad and they couldn't see what was going on   (opposingviews.com) divider line 276
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14556 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Jul 2013 at 1:34 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-26 03:30:13 PM

PacManDreaming: LaughingRadish: I want to see blunders like this result in hard time being served by the sloppy cops.  Until we stop accepting "oops, sorry" and say "sorry's not enough", we will continue to see more of this.

It would be nice, but, until the police pull this kind of "accidental" crap on some politician's or other influential person's family, it probably won't ever lead to anything more than a slap on the wrist.


There was a mayor in MD who had pot planted at his house by the cops. They busted in, shot his dogs, and arrested everyone in the house. Not much came of that, a settlement and vague "SWAT reforms." The chief said the department would do it the same way again if the situation arose.
 
2013-07-26 03:30:27 PM
hardinparamedic
The last major attempt at trying to start a private police force was in Arizona in the 1980s by Rural/Metro Ambulance. They were basically told by the US DOJ that they were not allowed to do for-profit policing, and that they would not be recognized as a commissioned law enforcement authority, so they disbanded it.

I am 99% sure the city I am in uses the for-profit policing model.
 
2013-07-26 03:32:17 PM

hardinparamedic: redmid17: Aren't there some railway lines that employ their own police department? I thought Union Pacific did.

IIRC, they're actually US DOT cops in that capacity, or armed security guards.

The last major attempt at trying to start a private police force was in Arizona in the 1980s by Rural/Metro Ambulance. They were basically told by the US DOJ that they were not allowed to do for-profit policing, and that they would not be recognized as a commissioned law enforcement authority, so they disbanded it.


That makes sense. Streamlines where the police authority comes from. Having track in 50 states and lord knows how many cities and counties would probably lead to a few disputes.
 
2013-07-26 03:33:39 PM

AngryDragon: I'm aware of that. The militarization of the police force has led to incidents like this.  They are a direct result of the war on drugs.


There you go.
 
2013-07-26 03:33:48 PM

hardinparamedic: PacManDreaming: For-profit prison systems/"Tough on crime" Law enforcement agencies dependent on tax payer funds/Corporate influence

For profit prisons make up less than 9% of the American Prison System. There are no for-profit LE agencies in the United States.

I understand your issue with them, but pretending they're the reason why this situation exists is silly. The major factor in the overstep of law enforcement authority in the last 30 years has been directly related to the War on Drugs and War on Terror.


The prison itself may not be for profit but what about the companies that supply goods and services to the prison?  Clothing.  Food.  Toiletries.  Etc.  I'm asking more than I'm telling.  I'm guessing those services are for profit and benefit from a full prison.

And by the way... 9% is for all intents and purposes 1 out of 10.  That's a lot.
 
2013-07-26 03:34:06 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Well, I'm not calling for citizens to draw on cops erroneously responding to a burglary call. But you go ahead and shoot the FedEx guy, no sense in taking chances.


Do you realize that the armed civilian in this scenario is NOT the person who lost their shiat and killed an innocent human?

He attempted to take enough time to determine who the other people were.
Unfortunately this allowed the cops to fire first.
Rookie mistake


I guess not bothering with that "know your target" crap does give you a speed advantage.
 
2013-07-26 03:34:57 PM

redmid17: That makes sense. Streamlines where the police authority comes from. Having track in 50 states and lord knows how many cities and counties would probably lead to a few disputes.


DOT Cops and Game Wardens are two people you don't want to mess with. DOT Cops can take your car and everything in it on a whim. The Game Warden can do that to your house and everything you own on the guise of "poaching".

Enemabag Jones: I am 99% sure the city I am in uses the for-profit policing model.


I know you're being snarky, but there's a major difference between somewhere being a speed trap, and a corporation having the power to bring state and federal charges against someone for a crime they accused another person of.
 
2013-07-26 03:35:19 PM

Enemabag Jones: hardinparamedic
The last major attempt at trying to start a private police force was in Arizona in the 1980s by Rural/Metro Ambulance. They were basically told by the US DOJ that they were not allowed to do for-profit policing, and that they would not be recognized as a commissioned law enforcement authority, so they disbanded it.

I am 99% sure the city I am in uses the for-profit policing model.


Which Springfield?
 
2013-07-26 03:35:58 PM

sugardave: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: sugardave: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: sugardave: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: AngryDragon: hardinparamedic: phenn: They should probably stop worrying about disarming citizens and start disarming these farking idiot pigs instead.

You want unarmed police a la the UK? Start by giving up your second amendment rights to private ownership.

Not willing to do that? Then your request is not realistic in the least.

How about removing the need for no-knock drug warrants and citizens feeling they need to be armed to the teeth by ending the farking war on drugs already.

That's not what this was.

Nope, just a bunch of trigger-happy jack-booted thugs itching to put some holes in someone [who pointed a gun at them].  YEEHAW!

Yeah, so what you're saying here is that when a homeowner has groups of people invading their property they should NOT be able to defend themselves.  Might as well call for banning guns, I guess.  Way to go.

Well, I'm not calling for citizens to draw on cops erroneously responding to a burglary call. But you go ahead and shoot the FedEx guy, no sense in taking chances.

Where do you live that the FedEx guy shows up with his buddies armed to the teeth in the middle of the night?  Really, this is completely indefensible.


Good point.

If my FedEx guy shows up in the middle of the night with some buddies, all dressed in black and holding flashlights and rifles and then proceeds to work his way towards my back yard you BET I am gonna shoot his ass.

Fortunately me FedEx guy is not a complete moron like these cops.
 
2013-07-26 03:37:33 PM
redmid17
Which Springfield?


The one from the city the Simpsons is in.

/Sorry, not effectively giving up my real name online.
 
2013-07-26 03:39:11 PM

AngryDragon: The militarization of the police force has led to incidents like this. They are a direct result of the war on drugs.


I don't care how many people are killed as long as nobody is getting high.
 
2013-07-26 03:39:12 PM
The claim poor lighting, yet they were using flashlights?

At some point PDs need to change their practices to begin hiring the best and the brightest of the bunch
 
2013-07-26 03:41:27 PM

hardinparamedic: For profit prisons make up less than 9% of the American Prison System. There are no for-profit LE agencies in the United States.


OMG, you just made me laugh so hard I hurt myself. Private contractors supply state and federal prisons with services other than just detention. And yes, state and federal prisons can be for-profit, too. Law enforcement agencies routinely seize assets(property and money) from criminals. Of course, sometimes they forget to make sure the people they're stealing from are actually criminals.

And then they top it off with bullshiat like this.
 
2013-07-26 03:42:09 PM

kosherkow: At some point PDs need to change their practices to begin hiring the best and the brightest of the bunch


They'd have to start paying commensurate with the agony, in that case. People like to tout around figures of cops making 100+k as a beat cop, while leaving out the fact that incorporates less than 1% of the Nation, typically high income, high cost of living areas.

Hell. an NYPD cop makes 36k a year starting. They start out in my city at 32K.

Doesn't attract a lot of people who want to do it on the virtue of their civic responsibility.

/Although, there is something to be said that anecdotally, cities that hire from a volunteer reserve program for their paid cops tend to have a higher overall quality.
 
2013-07-26 03:43:59 PM

hardinparamedic: You got to admit a ZSU-23-4 would be an awesome ride.


I'm gonna have to agree with you on this. The Russians made some pretty amazing combat vehicles.

Tat'dGreaser: That would be pretty sweet


It'd be easier to get through traffic, here. Load it up with API and watch all your traffic problems disappear in a cloud of smoke.
 
2013-07-26 03:45:19 PM
kosherkow
The claim poor lighting, yet they were using flashlights?
At some point PDs need to change their practices to begin hiring the best and the brightest of the bunch


But then who will follow zero tolerance policies, arrest people who break the law regardless of context, because prosecuting people is up to the DA, tap down people in the street walking by, just because?

You want the brightest people to do that?
 
2013-07-26 03:45:48 PM

hardinparamedic: kosherkow: At some point PDs need to change their practices to begin hiring the best and the brightest of the bunch

They'd have to start paying commensurate with the agony, in that case. People like to tout around figures of cops making 100+k as a beat cop, while leaving out the fact that incorporates less than 1% of the Nation, typically high income, high cost of living areas.

Hell. an NYPD cop makes 36k a year starting. They start out in my city at 32K.

Doesn't attract a lot of people who want to do it on the virtue of their civic responsibility.

/Although, there is something to be said that anecdotally, cities that hire from a volunteer reserve program for their paid cops tend to have a higher overall quality.


I was trying to go with the "brightest" in a visual sense, you know, so they could see the house numbers :)

a human glowstick!
 
2013-07-26 03:46:02 PM

hardinparamedic: I understand your issue with them, but pretending they're the reason why this situation exists is silly. The major factor in the overstep of law enforcement authority in the last 30 years has been directly related to the War on Drugs and War on Terror.


Yes, but there is a deeper reason. There's money to be made  with these two "wars". That's where private companies come in.

/sorry, meant to address this in an earlier post.
 
2013-07-26 03:53:19 PM
The obvious solution is Night Vision Goggles for every member of the police force.
 
2013-07-26 03:55:16 PM

hardinparamedic: kosherkow: At some point PDs need to change their practices to begin hiring the best and the brightest of the bunch

They'd have to start paying commensurate with the agony, in that case. People like to tout around figures of cops making 100+k as a beat cop, while leaving out the fact that incorporates less than 1% of the Nation, typically high income, high cost of living areas.

Hell. an NYPD cop makes 36k a year starting. They start out in my city at 32K.

Doesn't attract a lot of people who want to do it on the virtue of their civic responsibility.

/Although, there is something to be said that anecdotally, cities that hire from a volunteer reserve program for their paid cops tend to have a higher overall quality.


Everything I found on nypd salary says they start at 44+
 
2013-07-26 03:57:09 PM

SpectroBoy: Maybe, just maybe, the risk doesn't justify blasting every innocent citizen that causes you a little concern.


On the other hand, you should be terrified of anyone with waders and a gaff in his hand. They're seething tornadoes of fury and fear.
 
2013-07-26 03:59:51 PM
The only good cop is a dead cop.
 
2013-07-26 04:00:07 PM

redmid17: Everything I found on nypd salary says they start at 44+


Control-F and type in "What are the Benefits". NYPD starts at 34K. In a city where an apartment is 1500/month for a studio.
 
2013-07-26 04:01:31 PM

kidgenius: Most fedex guys prefer to just ring the doorbell and leave the package on your doorstep. toss your new TV over the fence.


FTFY
 
2013-07-26 04:12:39 PM

hardinparamedic: Not really. Actual SWAT teams are smaller than people think.

What has happened, especially around Warrant/Fugitive Apprehension teams and Narcotics Squads, is that they have become tactical in nature due to the risk involved in these. It's not unusual to see a warrant served - especially in a known drug or gang area - by people dressed out in tactical gear and using heavy firepower.

You're only - usually - going to see a true SWAT operator in a situation such as an active shooter, barricade, hostage, or unusual situation.


Remind me again what the "T" in SWAT stands for.
 
2013-07-26 04:14:27 PM

Tat'dGreaser: After reading the news story that was linked in the link, sounds like a really horrible accident and the police are doing damage control.

Sounds like they went there expecting to run into people robbing a house. Man standing in the dark with a gun, he doesn't drop it so they have to shoot. He was just defending his property and was probably confused/scared. I'm guessing an investigation will show this but the only people who will be punished were whoever falsified the report.

Heh, these militarization comments always make me laugh like every street cop has a rocket launcher and a .50 cal on his tank.


Is there some reason it has to be  every police officer for you be alarmed?
i282.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-26 04:16:04 PM

TwowheelinTim: Maul555: Wangiss: vernonFL: Police were dispatched to 409 Havenwood Lane on May 28 because of a reported burglary. The problem was that they went to 404 Havenwood Lane instead of their intended destination.

If only there was some sort of global system that could be used to make sure you were at the correct address.

Maybe a system of satellites and receiving devices that map and plot your position across the globe?

No, you'd have to have some way to generate electricity in your car.  Cars are powered by burning light oils, not by electricity.

Uhh...  Hello... are you from the past?  We have these alternator things now...

Uhh... Hello... You're all missing a very rudimentary point here. Even the earliest gasoline burning cars had some sort of electrical generating device, be it a magneto, generator, or whatever. It won't fire without a spark. Period.


Are you continuing the joke?  We were all in on it except Maul555.  This is getting confusing.
 
2013-07-26 04:16:16 PM

indy_kid: Eisenhower warned us of the Military-Industrial Complex when leaving office. SWAT teams are simply part of that system. We have no one to blame but ourselves for putting up with this bullshiat for 60 years now.


The other option is trying to stand up to them.  But good luck with that, they have rigged the system so any honest person can't get elected to get to a postion high enough to legally do anything about it.  And even if you did, you'd be assassinated covertly and/or overtly.
 
2013-07-26 04:22:36 PM

flynn80: indy_kid: Eisenhower warned us of the Military-Industrial Complex when leaving office. SWAT teams are simply part of that system. We have no one to blame but ourselves for putting up with this bullshiat for 60 years now.

The other option is trying to stand up to them.  But good luck with that, they have rigged the system so any honest person can't get elected to get to a postion high enough to legally do anything about it.  And even if you did, you'd be assassinated covertly and/or overtly.


All you can do is keep your head down, spread dissent, and damage the system however you can without taking too much risk.  Eventually it will collapse, but probably not in our lifetime...which is good.  Life is still pretty damn good, when the SHTF, it's going to be pretty damn bad for a long time.
 
2013-07-26 04:27:28 PM
Aren't those addresses on opposite sides of the street? I know when I'm going someplace for the first time I start looking at addresses as soon as I'm on that street so I at least know if its going to be on the left or right.
 
2013-07-26 04:28:39 PM

This text is now purple: Remind me again what the "T" in SWAT stands for.


Calling someone SWAT implies that they are a member of an actual SWAT Team. SWAT is not what you, personally, want to define it as, but an actual established organization in a police department who is trained and equipped to handle situations beyond the scope and normal encounter of a beat cop.

Most departments follow the CALEA requirements for members to be a part of that, but people who are not a part of the SWAT team, but are in a high risk assignment may use additional tactical protective gear.

Even then, the definition of requirements to be in SWAT varies wildly from state to state, and city to city. In some, you have to have had X years on the police department and Y amount of additional training before even being able to go through the entry training, and they prefer military experience. In other small towns, you can just buy the patch yourself and slap it on.
 
2013-07-26 04:41:04 PM

Unoriginal_Username: Mock26: In defense of the cops, it can be very difficult to see the number on a house when the lighting is crappy or nonexistent.  Getting the wrong house because of bad lighting is understandable.

In defense of intelligence, though, they were on the wrong farking side of the street! Nearly every place I have ever been in this country has odd numbers on one side of the street and even on the other.  I imagine that the cops were looking the numbers as they drove by, and if they saw the numbers were 400 - 402 - 404 or 412 - 410 - 408 then why did they not turn their farking heads and start looking at the odd numbered houses?!?!?!?!?!?

So yeah, their stupidity completely cancels out any excuse for bad lighting and getting the wrong house.  This should be manslaughter charges for the shooter(s) and the firing of everyone else involved on the response.


Absolutely. If you can't see the numbers on the house, it is an understandable mistake.
It's not like the cop cars have any tool for high powered illumination on them right?...

[image.trucktrend.com image 749x469]
..oh.


Um, yeah, did you ever read the rest of my post?
 
2013-07-26 04:49:59 PM
FTFA : 409 Havenwood Lane on May 28 because of a reported burglary. The problem was that they went to 404 Havenwood Lane

In that case, they weren't even on the right side of the road.  One side is going to have odd house numbers, one side is going to have even.

kidgenius: Yeah, I know....only if those cops had a way of compensating for bad lighting


Cops can't be trued with flashlights.  There was a "cop kills man" story in the area (Plano, north of Dallas) a couple of years ago where the cops story was "I meant to turn on the flashlight, but I accidentally pulled the trigger and shot him dead".  In theory, the cops were staking out a suspected drug dealer.  In practice, no drugs were found, the guy just shot him.  Naturally, he got a few weeks of paid vacation, he's still a cop.

linky :http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Officer-Blames-Fatal-Shooting-on-Tr ig ger-Mistake-109336669.html
 
2013-07-26 04:52:05 PM

Godscrack: [imageshack.us image 646x426]

Were these the officers involved?


Nice touch.

'An Innocent Man' is a great and underrated film.
 
2013-07-26 04:55:35 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: orclover: Just a daily reminder everyone!  Cops will kill you and yer entire family and suffer no consequences.  And there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.  Oh just be innocent and cooperate?  Sorry, yer dead anyways, thanks for playing.

What if he was wearing a hoodie?


That's only okay when the person doing the shooting is a civilian.
 
2013-07-26 05:03:05 PM

hardinparamedic: redmid17: Everything I found on nypd salary says they start at 44+

Control-F and type in "What are the Benefits". NYPD starts at 34K. In a city where an apartment is 1500/month for a studio.


Jesus, it's that low? No f*cking way am I going there for it then.

Even if it is 44 that's ridiculously low
 
2013-07-26 05:08:19 PM
hardinparamedic:  In a city where an apartment is 1500/month for a studio.

There are plenty of places one can live in NYC for far far less.  You just don't get to live in Manhattan.
 
2013-07-26 05:28:27 PM

hardinparamedic: I'd still trust a cop more than half these idiots on here.


so would I

// perhaps not these particular cops, but cops overall tend to respect the weapon more
 
2013-07-26 05:37:01 PM
The fact that the cops aren't facing any kind of criminal charges is the bullsh*t here.  If a private citizen had done the same thing, it would have been at least manslaughter if not murder 2.  Even if they were acquitted, they would have rotted in jail for months, probably been fired from their job, and faced six-digit charges in mounting a legal defense.

The cops get a paid vacation, and then go back to work.  The department can and will be sued, but all the cops are going to get for punishment is a dismissal.  This is ridiculous.
 
2013-07-26 05:46:54 PM

Nofun: The fact that the cops aren't facing any kind of criminal charges is the bullsh*t here.  If a private citizen had done the same thing, it would have been at least manslaughter if not murder 2.  Even if they were acquitted, they would have rotted in jail for months, probably been fired from their job, and faced six-digit charges in mounting a legal defense.

The cops get a paid vacation, and then go back to work.  The department can and will be sued, but all the cops are going to get for punishment is a dismissal bupkiss.  This is ridiculous.


No way will they be dismissed.
 
2013-07-26 05:54:52 PM
Fark Cop Bootlickers Apologists to justify the cops' actions and blame the victim in 5... 4... 3...
 
2013-07-26 06:00:10 PM

hardinparamedic: thetubameister: Jesus Christ... when will this shiat STOP?!?!?

When do we - as a nation - stop allowing this?!?  When do they stop getting away with murder?

When we start licensing cops on a state/federal level, have independent oversight for cops separate from police departments, and we start providing in depth mental and psychiatric screening and support for people from the first day.


This may well be the smartest thing said in this thread, it should be repeated again and again, like so many bears.
 
2013-07-26 06:04:32 PM

buckeyebrain: Fark Cop Bootlickers Apologists to justify the cops' actions and blame the victim in 5... 4... 3...


Where has CruiserTwelve been?
 
2013-07-26 06:05:05 PM
They didn't realize they were on the even side of the street?
 
2013-07-26 06:05:51 PM

firefly212: hardinparamedic: thetubameister: Jesus Christ... when will this shiat STOP?!?!?

When do we - as a nation - stop allowing this?!?  When do they stop getting away with murder?

When we start licensing cops on a state/federal level, have independent oversight for cops separate from police departments, and we start providing in depth mental and psychiatric screening and support for people from the first day.

This may well be the smartest thing said in this thread, it should be repeated again and again, like so many bears.


I don't want state or federal problems to reach my sheriff.  Part of his job is to keeps the feds out.  But with the rest of it I agree.
 
2013-07-26 06:05:55 PM

hardinparamedic: PacManDreaming: If they did, I'd be a cop, too. Of course, I'd opt for the Quad 50.

You got to admit a ZSU-23-4 would be an awesome ride. Can you put spinners on a tracked vehicle?


Joe Friday would approve...   http://www.metacafe.com/watch/an-FIFU2bJnuh7mu/dragnet_1987_friday_an d _streebeck_attacking_the_milk_factory/
 
2013-07-26 06:11:44 PM
Peki: GPS thigamajig

You sound old.

I'm not that young, but damn man.  GPS navigation works fine the VAST majority of the time, especially if you use it on a device that is always up to date.  Toss that 5-year-old Garmin and get a smartphone.

I'm 30, so your call on the old part. The GPS apps on my fiance's Blackberry suck, and it's a 2-yr-old phone, so again, your call on how out of touch I am with the tech. I haven't seen one yet that does as good as job as taking 5 minutes before my trip to look up the directions on mapquest and use google maps to physically see the area. I also note the exits immediately prior so I don't get stuck in the fast lane and have to make a sudden move across four lanes of traffic. I live in Los Angeles, so again, my experience may be biased.

I'm fine with being a bit of a luddite. I don't have a phone, but as I'm self-employed and a volunteer, I find it's convenient for people to have to work a little bit harder to get a hold of me. Most people's phones have email and can type a short enough message for me to know what they need. *shrugs*
 
2013-07-26 06:21:09 PM
404 Error

/sorry if repeat, didn't see it in the first 50 and not gonna read 200+ comments
 
2013-07-26 06:22:26 PM

heili skrimsli: buckeyebrain: Fark Cop Bootlickers Apologists to justify the cops' actions and blame the victim in 5... 4... 3...

Where has CruiserTwelve been?


You said it, not me.
 
2013-07-26 07:00:55 PM

hardinparamedic: I can tell you exactly how this will end. This will disappear. The department will settle with the family for an undisclosed amount while having the family sign a binding NDA. And that will be it.


Where the undisclosed amount is probably $0 and agreeing to probably not kill the rest of the family the same way.
 
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