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(YouTube)   Cop fired for failing to do his job - which, nowadays, involves filling arrest quotas and handing out more tickets than people exist in a town. "Scary" tag stands in for lack of "Outrage" tag   (youtube.com) divider line 61
    More: Scary, Justin Hanners, Radley Balko, cops, misdemeanors, Auburn University  
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4547 clicks; posted to Video » on 25 Jul 2013 at 7:04 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



61 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-07-25 01:27:10 AM  
What's scary is that we have laws we don't want enforced to the letter.
We should be able to agree that speed limits should be higher.
That public intoxication shouldn't be illegal when "public nuisance" covers it.
Age of consent should be the average age of the people involved.  Adults help kids make choices all the time.
Red lights should be treated as stop signs if you wait a reasonable amount of time.  They do this for motorcycles already in some states.
 
2013-07-25 01:30:52 AM  
Almost as scary as cops becoming another revenue industry based on harassment, targeting and random screwing over of people for money that subverts the very notion of law enforcement.  It's like Amway meets the Hell's Angels with a dash of Scientology.  Cops are MLM thugs, now.
 
2013-07-25 01:36:03 AM  

bunner: Cops are MLM thugs, now.


I'm lucky to live in a high crime area and the police are fantastic.  The tail light on my motorcycle went out once and they were nice enough to ride behind for a bit without writing me a ticket or anything.
 
2013-07-25 01:37:48 AM  

staplermofo: bunner: Cops are MLM thugs, now.

I'm lucky to live in a high crime area and the police are fantastic.  The tail light on my motorcycle went out once and they were nice enough to ride behind for a bit without writing me a ticket or anything.


Well, hell, I say we give them all a nice slice of pie because, anecdotes.
 
2013-07-25 01:38:53 AM  

bunner: Well, hell, I say we give them all a nice slice of pie because, anecdotes.


The moral of my story was everyone should move to the ghetto, not that you were wrong.
 
2013-07-25 01:39:13 AM  

staplermofo: bunner: Cops are MLM thugs, now.

I'm lucky to live in a high crime area and the police are fantastic.  The tail light on my motorcycle went out once and they were nice enough to ride behind for a bit without writing me a ticket or anything.


you sound white.
 
2013-07-25 01:41:34 AM  

staplermofo: bunner: Well, hell, I say we give them all a nice slice of pie because, anecdotes.

The moral of my story was everyone should move to the ghetto, not that you were wrong.


The ghetto is how you live, not where you live.  Buildings and streets and parks are ideologically inert.  The ghetto is installed by lazy thugs.  Some of them have badges.
 
2013-07-25 01:43:28 AM  
I really thought I was going to be called a pedophile, not a white, lazy thug.
 
2013-07-25 01:45:10 AM  

staplermofo: I really thought I was going to be called a pedophile, not a white, lazy thug.


You seem to have a lot more invested into whatever you're fishing for than I.   :  )
 
2013-07-25 01:50:15 AM  

bunner: You seem to have a lot more invested into whatever you're fishing for than I. : )


4th line of my original post.
I am very grateful to the police here, joking aside.
 
2013-07-25 01:56:28 AM  
Bloomberg seen scratching his head and wondering, "Why didn't I think of that?"

/oh, who am I kidding? The NYPD use quotas all the time
//theirs are probably just more "implied" than "official"
 
2013-07-25 02:02:33 AM  

Hydra: The NYPD use quotas all the time


Can you imagine if they started issuing jaywalking tickets?  I'm tempted to fly to LA and get one just to have it on my wall.
 
2013-07-25 02:07:31 AM  

Hydra: //theirs are probably just more "implied" than "official"


"Global warming, employee internet surfing, sick days, fraud, wasteful mismanagement the difference between what we say we do and what we actually do is responsible for the loss of trillions of dollars our entire society every year forever.
 
2013-07-25 02:09:46 AM  
1. Buy automobile insurance company
2. Incentivize police to hang their ass out in the road .. who's MAKING' 'em to do this crazy shyt?
3. Insurance rates skyrocket .. police make a little while INS. CO. makes bank

/go figger
 
2013-07-25 02:11:07 AM  

some_beer_drinker: staplermofo: bunner: Cops are MLM thugs, now.

I'm lucky to live in a high crime area and the police are fantastic.  The tail light on my motorcycle went out once and they were nice enough to ride behind for a bit without writing me a ticket or anything.

you sound white.


I'm still trying to figure out what MLM stands for.....
 
2013-07-25 02:13:03 AM  

Frederick: I'm still trying to figure out what MLM stands for.....


I think means 1950, but doesn't understand roman numerals.
 
2013-07-25 02:20:43 AM  

staplermofo: bunner: You seem to have a lot more invested into whatever you're fishing for than I. : )

4th line of my original post.
I am very grateful to the police here, joking aside.


I was more confused by that line.  If the age of consent were determined as an average age of the people involved, there would always be at least one member of the encounter that would be below the age of consent.  15 year old and 30 year old, the average is 22.5, so the 15 year old is below the age of consent.  20 year old and 30 year old, the average is 25 and the 20 year old is below the age of consent.  16 year old, two 18 year olds, a 21 year old and two 28 year olds the average is 21.5 so all of them but the 28 year olds are below the age of consent.  That doesn't seem so much a pedofile-y system as one that's just going to get half or more of every sexual encounter arrested.
 
2013-07-25 02:22:35 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: I was more confused by that line.


Yes, yes you were.
 
2013-07-25 02:23:41 AM  

Frederick: some_beer_drinker: staplermofo: bunner: Cops are MLM thugs, now.

I'm lucky to live in a high crime area and the police are fantastic.  The tail light on my motorcycle went out once and they were nice enough to ride behind for a bit without writing me a ticket or anything.

you sound white.

I'm still trying to figure out what MLM stands for.....


Multi Level Marketing.
 
2013-07-25 02:47:23 AM  

staplermofo: We should be able to agree that speed limits should be higher.


Why should we agree with that? I think most speed limits are appropriate as they are now. Around here anyway, highway and interstates are 75 mph or 65 if you're within the city limits. Residential areas are 30, nonresidential areas within the city are 35-45 depending on conditions. I'm hard pressed to think of a reason any of those should be any higher. And don't give me some BS about how cars today are built better than cars of the past, speed limits aren't based on how fast a car can safely handle the road, they're based on how fast you can safely navigate the surrounding area without putting others at risk.
 
2013-07-25 03:27:33 AM  

ReapTheChaos: you can safely navigate the surrounding area without putting others at risk.


Or stopping people arbitrarily with a gun strapped to your ass on a revenue quota fishing spree.  There's a word for that.
 
2013-07-25 07:11:48 AM  
So...having a standard to compare to peers is a bad thing?  Many departments use a point system for comparison purposes.  Felony arrests, misdemeanor arrests, warrant arrests, DUIs, and moving violations each have a number of points assigned.  You'll have people that have a high number and a low number...if you're at the low end...you're not doing your job.

Without bashing cops over the War on Drugs (which I think is a total failure), arrest quotas aren't really a bad thing.  You want cops to get the bad guys off the streets.  Ticket quotas (especially as it relates to speeding) I'm not a big fan of...but a good cop can easily write two moving violations a shift (not necessarily speeding).  When I was a cop some 18 years ago...we were unofficially expected to write 2 moving violations as shift.  It was very easy to write someone for going 15 over as we had 2 roads with 30mph speed limits.  I may pull someone over for going 11 over...but you likely weren't going to get a ticket from me unless you were going 15+ over the limit because I'm a serial speeder.  I was always looking for arrests, not moving violations.
 
2013-07-25 07:22:22 AM  
DNRTFA

Slow news day? This kind of thing suprises people?
 
2013-07-25 07:28:21 AM  

slayer199: So...having a standard to compare to peers is a bad thing?  Many departments use a point system for comparison purposes.  Felony arrests, misdemeanor arrests, warrant arrests, DUIs, and moving violations each have a number of points assigned.  You'll have people that have a high number and a low number...if you're at the low end...you're not doing your job.

Without bashing cops over the War on Drugs (which I think is a total failure), arrest quotas aren't really a bad thing.  You want cops to get the bad guys off the streets.  Ticket quotas (especially as it relates to speeding) I'm not a big fan of...but a good cop can easily write two moving violations a shift (not necessarily speeding).  When I was a cop some 18 years ago...we were unofficially expected to write 2 moving violations as shift.  It was very easy to write someone for going 15 over as we had 2 roads with 30mph speed limits.  I may pull someone over for going 11 over...but you likely weren't going to get a ticket from me unless you were going 15+ over the limit because I'm a serial speeder.  I was always looking for arrests, not moving violations.


And we wonder why so many people these days are getting arrested for stupid shiat like public intoxication for just walking home from a party or teenagers getting busted for smoking a damn cigarette. To answer your question, yes, having a  standard to compare to your peers is a bad thing when it leads to a competition that does nothing but harm otherwise harmless people.

All quotas do is influence cops to go out and harass everyone they see making the slightest impropriety until they find something arrest worthy.
 
2013-07-25 07:28:54 AM  

slayer199: So...having a standard to compare to peers is a bad thing?


YES.

Crime exists. It happens when it happens and it doesn't happen when it doesn't. It's entirely possibly, although unlikely, to have no crime at all on a given day.

Rewarding officers who stop a crime over those that don't will encourage those officers who don't get the reward to find the crime or create it. There's multiple examples of policemen, firemen, and doctors who create tragedy on the sly to suddenly appear to save the day and claim the reward.

It's a terrible system used by evil people to set quotas on things like that.
 
2013-07-25 07:34:10 AM  
We don't want your kind in our town
www.moviefancentral.com

He drew first blood!
media.screened.com
 
2013-07-25 07:34:15 AM  
You'd have thought the Zimmerman case would've taught people to not circle back around...
 
2013-07-25 07:39:22 AM  

Hydra: Bloomberg seen scratching his head and wondering, "Why didn't I think of that?"

/oh, who am I kidding? The NYPD use quotas all the time
//theirs are probably just more "implied" than "official"


You should listen to this
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/414/right-to- re main-silent?act=2#play
 
2013-07-25 08:07:37 AM  
The guy in the video looks like Neil Lennon's beardy American brother.

news.bbcimg.co.uk
 
2013-07-25 08:34:52 AM  

slayer199: When I was a cop some 18 years ago...we were unofficially expected to write 2 moving violations as shift.


And if you don't do this, does the town descend into anarchy, violence and death?
 
2013-07-25 08:58:10 AM  
3:35 - JAYWALKING!  Give that guy a sobriety test, too; he clearly can't walk in a straight line, either.
 
2013-07-25 08:59:54 AM  
The police are very, very creepy at this point. The days of telling your kids they are to help you are gone. You see a cop steer clear.
 
2013-07-25 09:19:07 AM  
One of the few truly good and decent cops, and he get's fired for it. It's sad that I'm not surprised.
 
2013-07-25 09:53:08 AM  

ReapTheChaos: And we wonder why so many people these days are getting arrested for stupid shiat like public intoxication for just walking home from a party or teenagers getting busted for smoking a damn cigarette. To answer your question, yes, having a standard to compare to your peers is a bad thing when it leads to a competition that does nothing but harm otherwise harmless people.

All quotas do is influence cops to go out and harass everyone they see making the slightest impropriety until they find something arrest worthy.


I think that's in incorrect assumption.  In a busy city (excluding New York and their stupid frisk policy), a cop doesn't have time to harass people that aren't breaking the law.  A GOOD cop is looking for bad people...not messing with people for minor crap.

It really depends on the city.  The city I worked in bordered Detroit and had a pretty high crime rate (lots of bars, heroin, and prostitutes along 8 mile).  We were very busy (I'd have 20 runs on afternoons...compared to a middle-class suburban city that may have 5 runs in on an afternoon shift).

There really isn't a "quota" it's more of a "standard" so to speak.  Think of it  more like a bell curve.  You have the guys at the top, a bunch in the middle, and the ones at the bottom.  If you're at the bottom of a points system (NOT a quota) or any system, you're going to get your ass chewed.

I have a buddy that works in a city that borders Detroit.  Their points system used to be like this:

10  - Violent Crime Felony Arrest (murder, rape, armed robbery, etc)
7  - Property Crime Felony Arrest
5 - DUI
4 - Misdemeanor arrest/warrant arrest
3 - Major traffic violation (reckless driving, etc)
2 - Traffic tickets

I don't know if that system is still in place, but it's a FAIR system for comparison.  It's a shiatty job...high stress (most of it from departmental politics), and seriously depressing (which is why I quit after 2 years).  There has to be a way for cops to be rated...and the less subjective that rating system is, the better it is for the officer (otherwise a cop's career is entirely dependent upon departmental politics).

The bottom line is that some of you farkers are so stupidly anti-cop you detract from legitimate arguments to be made against law enforcement and law enforcement abuse (New York's stop-and-frisk, War on Drugs, Corey Maye, etc).  Having standards is NOT the argument to make.
 
2013-07-25 09:56:48 AM  

Relatively Obscure: And if you don't do this, does the town descend into anarchy, violence and death?


Do you know how easy it is to write a moving violation?  I guarantee every city has a street where people exceed the speed limit by more than 15mph or a corner where people run stop signs or an intersection where people run red lights.

So you'd rather traffic laws would not be enforced?
 
2013-07-25 10:25:00 AM  

bunner: ReapTheChaos: you can safely navigate the surrounding area without putting others at risk.

Or stopping people arbitrarily with a gun strapped to your ass on a revenue quota fishing spree.  There's a word for that.




Don't forget the armor and muscle car.

smhttp.14409.nexcesscdn.net
 
2013-07-25 10:27:51 AM  

Relatively Obscure: slayer199: When I was a cop some 18 years ago...we were unofficially expected to write 2 moving violations as shift.

And if you don't do this, does the town descend into anarchy, violence and death?


They have to fire some cops.
 
2013-07-25 01:20:20 PM  

slayer199: So you'd rather traffic laws would not be enforced?


False dichotomies made of straw are the worst sort.  I'd rather cops focused on something besides quotas cause eventually, some schmuck who wasn't dong a damn thing gets shafted out of a week's pay while his garage is being burgled.  If glorified meter maids vying for that steak dinner is the en toto  of law enforcement, we're boned.
 
2013-07-25 01:51:43 PM  
retail stores fire workers for not selling enough credit cards.

meet the quota or someone else will be hired that will do it.

quit using that brain thing and just do what we tell you to do.
 
2013-07-25 02:48:42 PM  
slayer199: The bottom line is that some of you farkers are so stupidly anti-cop you detract from legitimate arguments to be made against law enforcement and law enforcement abuse (New York's stop-and-frisk, War on Drugs, Corey Maye, etc).  Having standards is NOT the argument to make.

When they stop murdering dogs at every opportunity we'll start treating them like humans again.  Until then they're nothing but a heavily armed and armored gang of government sanctioned psychopaths.
 
2013-07-25 03:01:08 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: When they stop murdering dogs at every opportunity we'll start treating them like humans again. Until then they're nothing but a heavily armed and armored gang of government sanctioned psychopaths.


That is a legitimate argument.

Point is biatching over how cops should be rated is a stupid argument.  Blah, blah, blah...all cops suck.

There's plenty of things we CAN argue about when it comes to law enforcement...and what you mentioned is one of them.
 
2013-07-25 03:34:26 PM  

slayer199: Point is biatching over how cops should be rated is a stupid argument.  Blah, blah, blah...all cops suck.


Except when that rating system forces otherwise well-meaning cops to throw discretion to the wind and make mountains out of molehills - or, worse, fabricate crimes where one has not been committed and plant evidence to convict - just to get extra points on a payscale. It creates horrific economic incentives that I think even a Marxist could recognize.

On the issue of planting/destruction of evidence, as a former, cop, you KNOW that it happens ALL THE TIME in departments across the US, and it is about the absolute worst thing the police can do (short of blatantly murdering people they don't like and covering it up, ala, Kelly Thomas).

The reason it is so bad is that it destroys any crude notions we had of impartiality in the criminal justice system, a presumption of innocence, and a right to a fair trial. Revolutions were fought over this, and deservedly so.

The reason we grant the government a monopoly on the use of force is we don't trust "the public" to provide for their own defense adequately and not to use it belligerently against others (thus violating their natural right to life, liberty, property, etc.). Right or wrong, that's the argument for an existence of government in the first place.

How does this rant relate to quotas? Because this is EXACTLY the kind of behavior that is induced, encouraged, and exacerbated by quota systems. It leads to awful abuses of power and horrific outcomes for the public at large, some of whom eventually lose their faith in their police departments and decide to start taking matters into their own hands outside the law. Then, we have lawlessness, and we're right back in a Hobbesian state of nature.
 
2013-07-25 07:52:27 PM  

Hydra: Except when that rating system forces otherwise well-meaning cops to throw discretion to the wind and make mountains out of molehills - or, worse, fabricate crimes where one has not been committed and plant evidence to convict - just to get extra points on a payscale. It creates horrific economic incentives that I think even a Marxist could recognize.


I'll respond to the first point.  As I said, I don't know of any system that provides economic rewards on a per point basis.  It's only used as a way to compare officers (and the department that used that method did not have a target).

Hydra: slayer199: Point is biatching over how cops should be rated is a stupid argument.  Blah, blah, blah...all cops suck.

Except when that rating system forces otherwise well-meaning cops to throw discretion to the wind and make mountains out of molehills - or, worse, fabricate crimes where one has not been committed and plant evidence to convict - just to get extra points on a payscale. It creates horrific economic incentives that I think even a Marxist could recognize.

On the issue of planting/destruction of evidence, as a former, cop, you KNOW that it happens ALL THE TIME in departments across the US, and it is about the absolute worst thing the police can do (short of blatantly murdering people they don't like and covering it up, ala, Kelly Thomas).

The reason it is so bad is that it destroys any crude notions we had of impartiality in the criminal justice system, a presumption of innocence, and a right to a fair trial. Revolutions were fought over this, and deservedly so.

The reason we grant the government a monopoly on the use of force is we don't trust "the public" to provide for their own defense adequately and not to use it belligerently against others (thus violating their natural right to life, liberty, property, etc.). Right or wrong, that's the argument for an existence of government in the first place.

How does this rant relate to quotas? Because this is EXACTLY the kind of behavior that is induced, encouraged, and exacerbated by quota systems. It leads to awful abuses of power and horrific outcomes for the public at large, some of whom eventually lose their faith in their police departments and decide to start taking matters into their own hands outside the law. Then, we have lawlessness, and we're right back in a Hobbesian state of nature.


I don't disagree that planting of evidence happens.  My point is that your rationale that having a "quota" leads to planting of evidence is tenuous at best.

I'm critical of law enforcement when it's warranted...but in this case, I want some sort of objective scale to rate officers...otherwise it creates MORE problems with internal politics which leads to more corruption and abuse.
 
2013-07-25 08:21:52 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: Relatively Obscure: slayer199: When I was a cop some 18 years ago...we were unofficially expected to write 2 moving violations as shift.

And if you don't do this, does the town descend into anarchy, violence and death?

They have to fire some cops.


Ding.  Winner.

I'll give you an example:

1. Town is formed around an industry.  Population rises.
2. The industry fails, town gets poorer.  Alcoholism, joblessness, and crime rates soar.
3. Police force increases to handle the increase in crime.
4. New industries appear, gentrification occurs.  Crime rates plummet.
5. Less cops are needed because less crime is being committed.
6. Cops get laid off.  Hahahaha, I'm just kidding.  Cops lower standards for arrests and citations in order to justify and subsidize their own existence.
7. Unicycling home from microbrew tasting becomes DUI/public intoxication/terroristic threats.  Unmowed grass complaint gets the SWAT team.
8. STOP RESISTING!!!
 
2013-07-25 08:28:10 PM  

doglover: slayer199: So...having a standard to compare to peers is a bad thing?

YES.

Crime exists. It happens when it happens and it doesn't happen when it doesn't. It's entirely possibly, although unlikely, to have no crime at all on a given day.

Rewarding officers who stop a crime over those that don't will encourage those officers who don't get the reward to find the crime or create it. There's multiple examples of policemen, firemen, and doctors who create tragedy on the sly to suddenly appear to save the day and claim the reward.

It's a terrible system used by evil people to set quotas on things like that.


I agree.

The system, IMHO, is born out of the need to justify budgets.  If a precinct can show greater offenses, and infractions than the year before then they can successfully demonstrate a need at least for the current budget if not a greater one.
 
2013-07-25 09:28:25 PM  

staplermofo: I really thought I was going to be called a pedophile, not a white, lazy thug.


I'm surprised, too. But I guess coming out and saying it gets less hooks than "Uh, maybe we shouldn't be punishing people not at all involved with the pedophile."
 
2013-07-25 10:30:51 PM  
Freedom 2.0TM
 
2013-07-25 10:58:51 PM  

slayer199: ReapTheChaos: And we wonder why so many people these days are getting arrested for stupid shiat like public intoxication for just walking home from a party or teenagers getting busted for smoking a damn cigarette. To answer your question, yes, having a standard to compare to your peers is a bad thing when it leads to a competition that does nothing but harm otherwise harmless people.

All quotas do is influence cops to go out and harass everyone they see making the slightest impropriety until they find something arrest worthy.

I think that's in incorrect assumption.  In a busy city (excluding New York and their stupid frisk policy), a cop doesn't have time to harass people that aren't breaking the law.  A GOOD cop is looking for bad people...not messing with people for minor crap.

It really depends on the city.  The city I worked in bordered Detroit and had a pretty high crime rate (lots of bars, heroin, and prostitutes along 8 mile).  We were very busy (I'd have 20 runs on afternoons...compared to a middle-class suburban city that may have 5 runs in on an afternoon shift).

There really isn't a "quota" it's more of a "standard" so to speak.  Think of it  more like a bell curve.  You have the guys at the top, a bunch in the middle, and the ones at the bottom.  If you're at the bottom of a points system (NOT a quota) or any system, you're going to get your ass chewed.

I have a buddy that works in a city that borders Detroit.  Their points system used to be like this:

10  - Violent Crime Felony Arrest (murder, rape, armed robbery, etc)
7  - Property Crime Felony Arrest
5 - DUI
4 - Misdemeanor arrest/warrant arrest
3 - Major traffic violation (reckless driving, etc)
2 - Traffic tickets

I don't know if that system is still in place, but it's a FAIR system for comparison.  It's a shiatty job...high stress (most of it from departmental politics), and seriously depressing (which is why I quit after 2 years).  There has to be a way for cops to be rated...and the less s ...


What I got from the story was their quota system was based entirely upon revenue generating traffic tickets, so making a big violent felony arrest didn't help you one bit.  In small town like the one in the story, making a high quota can be extremely difficult and pretty much guarantees cops will arrest for shiat that they would normally let slide or write a ticket on questionable situations, e.g. ticket for a red light when it was actually yellow.

The cop in the story is the kind we need more of, but are quickly run out of the police force leaving the bad cops and bullies.
 
2013-07-25 11:58:29 PM  

staplermofo: bunner: Cops are MLM thugs, now.

I'm lucky to live in a high crime area and the police are fantastic.  The tail light on my motorcycle went out once and they were nice enough to ride behind for a bit without writing me a ticket or anything.


www.virginmedia.com
 
2013-07-26 12:04:39 AM  

OgreMagi: What I got from the story was their quota system was based entirely upon revenue generating traffic tickets, so making a big violent felony arrest didn't help you one bit. In small town like the one in the story, making a high quota can be extremely difficult and pretty much guarantees cops will arrest for shiat that they would normally let slide or write a ticket on questionable situations, e.g. ticket for a red light when it was actually yellow.

The cop in the story is the kind we need more of, but are quickly run out of the police force leaving the bad cops and bullies.


Hard quotas ARE BS....standards are not...if that clarifies my stance on things.  The problem with many small town cops is that don't have much to do but run traffic enforcement.
 
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