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(Ars Technica)   The Senator who previously warned us about the NSA's secret interpretation of the Patriot Act used to track your phone calls, emails and more is now warning us that everyone's cell phone has been turned into a 24/7 tracking device   (arstechnica.com) divider line 221
    More: Followup, Patriot Act, NSA, Senate Intelligence Committee, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, tracking system, Ron Wyden, surveillance state, Center for American Progress  
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8828 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jul 2013 at 6:35 PM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



221 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-07-24 05:18:10 PM
They'll turn it off when they find the Joker.
 
2013-07-24 05:40:53 PM
I'm behind 7 proxies. Good luck with that
 
2013-07-24 05:41:28 PM
This isn't news.
 
2013-07-24 05:45:54 PM
I was just ranting about this on Facebook......
 
2013-07-24 06:03:41 PM
Cage your damn phones.
 
2013-07-24 06:10:09 PM
I use passenger pigeons, no biggie
 
2013-07-24 06:25:54 PM

Captain Steroid: This isn't news.


That they can do this isn't really news, although it is something everyone should be aware is possible. If they are doing this without a warrant or with a blanket warrant though, that would be newsworthy. Of course I see no indications that they are doing so in the article, so I'm going to withhold my outrage for now.
 
2013-07-24 06:33:06 PM
How the hell do you think 911 calls are tracked so they can find you when you call?
 
2013-07-24 06:34:21 PM

HeadbangerSmurf: How the hell do you think 911 calls are tracked so they can find you when you call?


The cell phone fairy?
 
2013-07-24 06:38:17 PM
Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not. Yet this is the latest outrage. The government also has the ability to drop a nuclear warhead on your house, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
 
2013-07-24 06:38:39 PM
That's why I leave my cel phone in the other room.
 
2013-07-24 06:39:34 PM
That would explain why the battery doesn't last for more than 10 minutes
 
2013-07-24 06:39:58 PM
Um, they've been doing this for a while. If you call 9-1-1 your phone will even tell you it's uploading your GPS coordinates.
 
2013-07-24 06:39:58 PM

HeadbangerSmurf: How the hell do you think 911 calls are tracked so they can find you when you call?


They ask you?

Called 911 from my cell a handful of times because I ref/volunteer with youth sports leagues and there is at least 1 broken bone/season. They ALWAYS have to ask the address. 2 of the fields they can never find even with the address and directions. GPS beaconing would actually help in that situation.
 
2013-07-24 06:40:23 PM
farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2013-07-24 06:41:07 PM
That's why I pay cash for disposables
 
2013-07-24 06:41:20 PM
You have all been ingesting rfid tags since the nsa took over fritolay.
 
2013-07-24 06:41:29 PM

skinink: [farm3.staticflickr.com image 500x312]


Awesome, love that movie.
 
2013-07-24 06:42:10 PM

revrendjim: Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not. Yet this is the latest outrage. The government also has the ability to drop a nuclear warhead on your house, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.


That's pre-1/20/2009 thinking.

HeadbangerSmurf: How the hell do you think 911 calls are tracked so they can find you when you call?


That's pre-911 thi-

Aw, fark it.
 
2013-07-24 06:42:45 PM
I could have told you that.
I'm also willing to bet that they share the information with collection agencies and telemarketers.

It's awful funny how often your phone will ring from one of the above within mere seconds of your using the phone, or when you're on the move.
 
2013-07-24 06:43:00 PM
Big deal, I've seen call records. The next step, currently in development, is to tie your phone number to your demographic (Experian Mosiac classification) to display specific ads as you walk thru the mall or drive by outdoor displays.

See colorful chart near the end: http://www.experian.com/assets/marketing-services/brochures/mosaic-br o chure.pdf  Big brother meets Google.
 
2013-07-24 06:43:07 PM
This has been known for years.

Is the delay on this info the general public/media just going to be multiple years as a standard now? Kind of like locking your wireless internet. People are just so stupid they won't find something out until every news station is pretending like they've uncovered some secret?
 
2013-07-24 06:44:21 PM

revrendjim: Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not.


Um, have you not been paying attention?  Yes, THEY ARE.  Thats the whole point of these stories.  The government IS listening in on all phone calls and internet activity.  Since position of your phone is part of the meta data, it is recorded too.
Recorded forever.
I think people don't really grasp the magnitude of whats happening.  They know more about you than you do! They know more about you than you do, because they don't forget.
 
2013-07-24 06:45:06 PM
I do not see the problem with this.  However, I believe an exception needs to be made for the families of those making over 250,000 dollars a year.  The wealthy and the powerful are not a threat to the well-being of this country.  Only the terrorists, i.e. "people making under 250,000 dollars a year".  Now watch in amazement, as the terrorists label me a "troll".
 
2013-07-24 06:46:16 PM
Philip K. Dick is rolling in his grave.

www3.pcmag.com
 
2013-07-24 06:47:30 PM

new_york_monty: Of course I see no indications that they are doing so in the article


Senator Wyden, as a member of the Senate Intellegence Committee, is explicitly forbidden to say this is happening for sure, even if he knows it is true.

However, just as with the Senator's revelation that the Patriot Act was secretly being interpreted to allow spying on all Americans, he can hint like a mother farker.

For more than two years, a handful of Democrats on the Senate intelligence committee have warned that the government is secretly interpreting its surveillance powers under the Patriot Act in a way that would be alarming if the public - or even others in Congress - knew about it.

On Thursday, two of those senators - Ron Wyden of Oregon and Mark Udall of Colorado - went further. They said a top-secret intelligence operation that is based on that secret legal theory is not as crucial to national security as executive branch officials have maintained.


Senator Wyden has repeatedly warned us about cell phone tracking.

"Most of us here have a computer in our pocket that can potentially be used to track and monitor us 24/7," Wyden remarked early on, before vaguely warning of the prospect of "a surveillance state that cannot be reversed." Later he added: "Without additional protections in the law, every single one of us... may be and can be tracked and monitored anywhere we are at any time." And again: "Today, government officials openly tell the press that they have the authority to effectively turn America's cell phones and smartphones into location-enabled homing beacons."

He has sponsored legislation to make location tracking without a probable cause warrant explicitly illegal.

What more to you think he could do without landing in prison?
 
2013-07-24 06:47:43 PM
I've read about the roving bugs that supposedly can be activated on cell phones, but I have to wonder how that jibes with things like airplane mode. If the roving bugs truly work as advertised, then airplane mode does nothing because the cell radio is still active. For planes this isn't a huge issue, because the whole cell phone being off thing has largely been bullshiat, but there would be a very real safety impact in situations where lives actually DO depend on the phone truly being off and not broadcasting when you power it off or turn it into airplane mode (such as when you are at a hospital ward with sensitive equipment or you are on a job site with explosives wired to remote detonators).

If you have an airplane mode setting and it is not honored, you could have a major safety issue, and if the airplane mode setting IS honored, then you could just use that to sever the cell connection when you want to go off-grid.
 
2013-07-24 06:48:41 PM
I already leave my phone at home when I'm out committing crimes for this very reason.
 
2013-07-24 06:50:01 PM

new_york_monty: Captain Steroid: This isn't news.

That they can do this isn't really news, although it is something everyone should be aware is possible. If they are doing this without a warrant or with a blanket warrant though, that would be newsworthy. Of course I see no indications that they are doing so in the article, so I'm going to withhold my outrage for now.


I didn't read the article, but phones perform handoffs even while they are turned off.  So the towers know where you are, as long as there is a battery in your phone.  But I think anyone who watched the Bourne movies knew that.
 
2013-07-24 06:50:53 PM
upload.wikimedia.org

It's basically a documentary
 
2013-07-24 06:51:24 PM
Not if I forget and leave it at home all the time! Booya!

(This annoys my family quite a bit)
 
2013-07-24 06:51:43 PM
I'm posting this from my bunk in Fort Leavenworth so I'm getting ++++ CARRIER SIGNAL LOST++++
 
2013-07-24 06:54:24 PM

skinink: [farm3.staticflickr.com image 500x312]


Great movie. Maybe it's time to include it in the Saturday Cinema thread.
 
2013-07-24 06:54:34 PM
They know I play Candy Crush in the washroom while at work?

This madness must stop.
 
2013-07-24 06:54:51 PM
Is it too early to start stumping for a Wyden/Warren or Warren/Wyden electoral ticket?
 
2013-07-24 06:57:57 PM

new_york_monty: Captain Steroid: This isn't news.

That they can do this isn't really news, although it is something everyone should be aware is possible. If they are doing this without a warrant or with a blanket warrant though, that would be newsworthy. Of course I see no indications that they are doing so in the article, so I'm going to withhold my outrage for now.


Law enforcement has been obtaining cell phone location data without warrants for years.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/warrantless-cellphone-tracking-leg al -federal-court-rules-944452

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/exclusive-what-local-cops-learn-ca rr iers-earn-cellphone-records-721604?franchiseSlug=technolog
 
2013-07-24 07:00:04 PM

rkiller1: Big deal, I've seen call records. The next step, currently in development, is to tie your phone number to your demographic (Experian Mosiac classification) to display specific ads as you walk thru the mall or drive by outdoor displays.

See colorful chart near the end: http://www.experian.com/assets/marketing-services/brochures/mosaic-br o chure.pdf  Big brother meets Google.


Weirdly enough, I am really enthused by the idea of more targeted ads if that means I never again have to be given the mental image of two wrinkly old people farking from a Cialis ad or to never again be tortured by the Sarah McLaughlin sad kitties and puppies ads. If I'm going to be subjected to ads, it's actually a little less painful if they are ads that I actually might want to see.

That said, how would those mall ads or outdoor displays even work? If you have an outdoor display near a busy road there are so many people zipping by that you can't target any one specific person because you are going to miss out on the other 100 people who are also stuck in traffic near the same sign. The same goes for a sign in a high traffic mall corridor that can be seen by a couple dozen people at the same time. The logistics just doesn't work unless everyone has some sort of Google Glass style HUD.
 
2013-07-24 07:00:19 PM

LoneCraneFullMoon: I already leave my phone at home when I'm out committing crimes for this very reason.


Yeah.  Let's leave our phones at home and go get sushi and not pay!
 
2013-07-24 07:00:24 PM

bhcompy: It's basically a documentary


The funny thing is ever since I saw that movie I was convinced the government could do that in a sort of crazy conspiracy theory way.

Now, Gene Hackman looks like a prophet.
 
2013-07-24 07:00:50 PM

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: new_york_monty: Captain Steroid: This isn't news.

That they can do this isn't really news, although it is something everyone should be aware is possible. If they are doing this without a warrant or with a blanket warrant though, that would be newsworthy. Of course I see no indications that they are doing so in the article, so I'm going to withhold my outrage for now.

Law enforcement has been obtaining cell phone location data without warrants for years.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/warrantless-cellphone-tracking-leg al -federal-court-rules-944452

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/exclusive-what-local-cops-learn-ca rr iers-earn-cellphone-records-721604?franchiseSlug=technolog


It's also the position of the Obama administration.

The Obama administration told a federal court Tuesday that the public has no "reasonable expectation of privacy" in cellphone location data, and hence the authorities may obtain documents detailing a person's movements from wireless carriers without a probable-cause warrant.
 
2013-07-24 07:04:53 PM

caddisfly: LoneCraneFullMoon: I already leave my phone at home when I'm out committing crimes for this very reason.

Yeah.  Let's leave our phones at home and go get sushi and not pay!


Plate of shrimp.
 
2013-07-24 07:05:09 PM
But.. I don't have a cell phone.

/Yes, I'm a dinosaur, I know
 
2013-07-24 07:07:37 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: HeadbangerSmurf: How the hell do you think 911 calls are tracked so they can find you when you call?

They ask you?

Called 911 from my cell a handful of times because I ref/volunteer with youth sports leagues and there is at least 1 broken bone/season. They ALWAYS have to ask the address. 2 of the fields they can never find even with the address and directions. GPS beaconing would actually help in that situation.


Yeah, 911 isn't finding somebody via location tracking. Ever call 911 from somewhere that isn't your home area code? When I first moved to SF I still had a Maryland exchange...it wasn't until after I had to give my not-obscure intersection three times that I asked where I had been connected, and it was somewhere about 90 miles from San Francisco. They had no idea where I was.
 
2013-07-24 07:08:21 PM
I use Runkeeper to track my bike rides and runs.  I tell people the app doesn't track me, it just shows me the data the phone company is already collecting on me.
 
2013-07-24 07:09:12 PM
My Samsung 105 cost me $9.88 at Wal Mart.

A card was $19.95, and after taxes I was out the door for $33 and change.

You think you got a smart phone?  THAT is a smart phone!

Have fun tracking that one, Mr. FBI punk.
 
2013-07-24 07:11:08 PM
Of course they can track it.  This can be used to your advantage if need be.
 
2013-07-24 07:11:33 PM

Scrotastic Method: DoBeDoBeDo: HeadbangerSmurf: How the hell do you think 911 calls are tracked so they can find you when you call?

They ask you?

Called 911 from my cell a handful of times because I ref/volunteer with youth sports leagues and there is at least 1 broken bone/season. They ALWAYS have to ask the address. 2 of the fields they can never find even with the address and directions. GPS beaconing would actually help in that situation.

Yeah, 911 isn't finding somebody via location tracking. Ever call 911 from somewhere that isn't your home area code? When I first moved to SF I still had a Maryland exchange...it wasn't until after I had to give my not-obscure intersection three times that I asked where I had been connected, and it was somewhere about 90 miles from San Francisco. They had no idea where I was.


Enhanced 911 serves this purpose, but not every jurisdiction has it, and the ones that do are already worried about whatever is coming next(I forget the term)
 
wee [TotalFark]
2013-07-24 07:12:18 PM
Wait until people find out they can turn on the camera and microphone remotely, too.
 
2013-07-24 07:13:31 PM

Captain Steroid: This isn't news.


Alex Jones talked about this years ago.
 
2013-07-24 07:16:45 PM

Mad_Radhu: rkiller1: Big deal, I've seen call records. The next step, currently in development, is to tie your phone number to your demographic (Experian Mosiac classification) to display specific ads as you walk thru the mall or drive by outdoor displays.

See colorful chart near the end: http://www.experian.com/assets/marketing-services/brochures/mosaic-br o chure.pdf  Big brother meets Google.

Weirdly enough, I am really enthused by the idea of more targeted ads if that means I never again have to be given the mental image of two wrinkly old people farking from a Cialis ad or to never again be tortured by the Sarah McLaughlin sad kitties and puppies ads. If I'm going to be subjected to ads, it's actually a little less painful if they are ads that I actually might want to see.

That said, how would those mall ads or outdoor displays even work? If you have an outdoor display near a busy road there are so many people zipping by that you can't target any one specific person because you are going to miss out on the other 100 people who are also stuck in traffic near the same sign. The same goes for a sign in a high traffic mall corridor that can be seen by a couple dozen people at the same time. The logistics just doesn't work unless everyone has some sort of Google Glass style HUD.


The mobile devices nearby are voting.  As the call records are captured and collated, an algorithm chooses the next ad according to the predominate (or richest or whatever) demographic.  Keep in mind, today this is in beta-test in only one confidential indoor mall.  It's slated to go nationwide USA in 2014.
 
2013-07-24 07:16:56 PM

wee: Wait until people find out they can turn on the camera and microphone remotely, too.


I'm not paying the therapy bills for the NSA when they turn my camera on.
 
2013-07-24 07:17:34 PM
If they like watching me faping so much they should come over and watch me in person.

Because that would hot.

They could hold the camera and help me shoot some more videos.
 
2013-07-24 07:17:48 PM

RobertBruce: CageTurn off your damn phones.


Cheaper, just as effective.
 
2013-07-24 07:18:12 PM

Mija: Captain Steroid: This isn't news.

Alex Jones talked about this years ago.


Yeah, and at the time everyone denounced him as a crackpot.

Funny how times change.
 
2013-07-24 07:18:27 PM
So how about we use those hard spent tax dollars for a 'global' experiment.

What if someone organized everyone on the planet, or as many people as possible, with mobiles and ask them to do this on a select day:

1. Send text message to as many contacts as you can/want
2. The text message should contain the following text: NSA IS ____; my fav site is fark.com
3. Reply to each text with the same if you can, repeat

Then NSA could release the results and let us know exactly who's who in the Internet-sphere. I mean, it's already there, running, you might as well use the most available polling machine on earth to do something fun.

Anyone with me?
 
2013-07-24 07:22:22 PM
The government is way too busy to pay any attention to where you are going.

Holy shiat! Mr. Thinks-he's-way-more-important-than-he-is went to the grocery store again!  If you are managing to get on anyone's radar, you are doing some pretty hardcore shiat.  Just think of the people you are competing with for the Government's attention.

And no, just because you are maintaining a blog about gun rights doesn't mean the government gives a shiat about you.
 
2013-07-24 07:25:00 PM

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: new_york_monty: Captain Steroid: This isn't news.

That they can do this isn't really news, although it is something everyone should be aware is possible. If they are doing this without a warrant or with a blanket warrant though, that would be newsworthy. Of course I see no indications that they are doing so in the article, so I'm going to withhold my outrage for now.

Law enforcement has been obtaining cell phone location data without warrants for years.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/warrantless-cellphone-tracking-leg al -federal-court-rules-944452

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/exclusive-what-local-cops-learn-ca rr iers-earn-cellphone-records-721604?franchiseSlug=technolog


That's a shiatty ruling. I'd be interested to see how that turns out in SCOTUS, especially in light of US v Jones and GPS tracking. I was looking to see if there has been any further action in the case you linked, but can't find anything regarding whether the case has been taken up or not.

The truth is, I am pretty outraged about the erosion of the 4th and government overreaches of the Constitution in general. I'd love to see something done about it and will be paying close attention to the subject come election time. I just didn't think the article was quite as outrage inducing as the Fark headline indicated, even if that is the implication of Wyden's speech. I get that he can't come out and say it directly, but it still seems like nothing is really going to happen unless someone does.

I like what Wyden is doing here, but I want more. I would be thrilled to see the Patriot Act go away and the government's domestic spying capabilities hamstrung by stringent warranting requirements for any type of digital snooping on Americans. And not in FISA. In a real court.
 
2013-07-24 07:28:25 PM
Business associate: So you don't own a cell phone?
Me: Nope.

Business associate:  Why not?

Me: Would you let the government or a corporation put a microchip in your head that could track you?

Business associate:  Hell no.

Me: But you would carry one around willingly.

Business associate:  ...
 
2013-07-24 07:28:39 PM

outtatowner: So how about we use those hard spent tax dollars for a 'global' experiment.

What if someone organized everyone on the planet, or as many people as possible, with mobiles and ask them to do this on a select day:

1. Send text message to as many contacts as you can/want
2. The text message should contain the following text: NSA IS ____; my fav site is fark.com
3. Reply to each text with the same if you can, repeat

Then NSA could release the results and let us know exactly who's who in the Internet-sphere. I mean, it's already there, running, you might as well use the most available polling machine on earth to do something fun.

Anyone with me?


Sure, but you already made a few mistakes. Eip.
 
2013-07-24 07:29:04 PM

olddinosaur: Mija: Captain Steroid: This isn't news.

Alex Jones talked about this years ago.

Yeah, and at the time everyone denounced him as a crackpot.

Funny how times change.


A stopped brain is right twice a day. Or something.
 
2013-07-24 07:31:54 PM

caddisfly: LoneCraneFullMoon: I already leave my phone at home when I'm out committing crimes for this very reason.

Yeah.  Let's leave our phones at home and go get sushi and not pay!



Let's not get ahead of ourselves, here.  I was thinking more along the lines of putting quarters in other people's  parking meters and jaywalking(but only when it's absolutely safe, of course).
 
2013-07-24 07:32:43 PM

Captain Steroid: This isn't news.


I'll play. Here's the next one. Let's collect the whole set!

This is old news, so it's ok
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, so it's ok
 
2013-07-24 07:33:55 PM
They watch you when you're voting
They see when you're awake
They know if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake

They know where you've been shopping
They know what porn you love
They know your FICA scores now
But they're peace full as a dove

You better not snoop
You'd better not spy
You'd better not peek
I'm telling you why
Satan's claws are coming to town.
 
2013-07-24 07:34:56 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-24 07:37:11 PM

Hollie Maea: The government is way too busy to pay any attention to where you are going.

Holy shiat! Mr. Thinks-he's-way-more-important-than-he-is went to the grocery store again!  If you are managing to get on anyone's radar, you are doing some pretty hardcore shiat.  Just think of the people you are competing with for the Government's attention.

And no, just because you are maintaining a blog about gun rights doesn't mean the government gives a shiat about you.


That is humor. I recognize that.
 
2013-07-24 07:39:27 PM
Thanks, senator, but we all knew that already.
 
2013-07-24 07:42:36 PM
Nobody give a shiat where you are or where you're going. They don't really care about your phone calls or emails either. But, if your doing something criminal, and are suspected, they can track the shiat out of you. Everyone else can carry on as usual.
 
2013-07-24 07:49:41 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-24 07:51:02 PM
No, they cannot track my cellphone.

It is a seriously old clamshell dumbphone. No GPS, no WiFi. It is currently off. And the battery is probably dead. It lives in the glove compartment of my truck.

Why do I still have it? No idea.
 
2013-07-24 07:52:19 PM
Um. Duh?
 
2013-07-24 07:52:35 PM
I had already noticed when pulling up Google Maps that it not only showed that I was home, but it was placing the dot within 15 feet of my location inside the house (when zoomed in). Not news.
 
2013-07-24 07:54:10 PM

HeadbangerSmurf: How the hell do you think 911 calls are tracked so they can find you when you call?


Depends on where you are; here in Philly, the 911 system doesn't have that technology.  If you can't give them a street address when you call, you're boned.
 
2013-07-24 08:01:15 PM
What is it about governments that they must use every avenue available, and make incredible efforts to create new avenues, to know absolutely everything about its populace? Really what's the point? Nothing better to do?
 
2013-07-24 08:02:33 PM
I'm across the street from the NSA complex in Baltimore, so I'm getting a kick...
 
2013-07-24 08:06:05 PM
Doesn't really say anything that people with common sense don't already know. Don't what to be tracked? Keep your digital foot print to a minimum. Turn your phone off, or at least put it in airplane mode.
On a side note, why do you think broadcast tv went digital? They want you to purchase cable/satelite to track what you do in your home.
 
2013-07-24 08:06:39 PM
It's a sad day when there is a news article confirming that the U.S. government is using our cell phones to spy on us 24/7, and the response from the population is "yeah, we know."
 
2013-07-24 08:06:59 PM
Nothing new. Check out this article from 2006.

Only now we all have cameras too so they have video surveillance capabilities.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029-6140191.html
 
2013-07-24 08:07:14 PM
Awesome!
 
2013-07-24 08:09:44 PM

olddinosaur: Mija: Captain Steroid: This isn't news.

Alex Jones talked about this years ago.

Yeah, and at the time everyone denounced him as a crackpot.

Funny how times change.


This came up a couple of months ago on Fark and I was called a Ludite, a paranoid, and an old grump. I plead guilty to the latter.
 
2013-07-24 08:10:01 PM

queezyweezel: I was just ranting about this on Facebook......


Same here! Right after I acknowledged where I went to school. Then I posted pics of my first pet, Fluffy, and took Facebook up on their suggestion that I list my family members. I'm glad my mom includes her maiden name in her handle so people can find her.

I did that right after I Checked In at the corner cafe with the free internet.
 
2013-07-24 08:11:02 PM

DubtodaIll: What is it about governments that they must use every avenue available, and make incredible efforts to create new avenues, to know absolutely everything about its populace? Really what's the point? Nothing better to do?


business optimization? oh wait, no, the economy sux. so that isn't it.
 
2013-07-24 08:12:19 PM
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-24 08:13:25 PM

wee: Wait until people find out they can turn on the camera and microphone remotely, too.


Wait 'till people find out all calls are being recorded for future search and review.
 
2013-07-24 08:17:46 PM

utah dude: DubtodaIll: What is it about governments that they must use every avenue available, and make incredible efforts to create new avenues, to know absolutely everything about its populace? Really what's the point? Nothing better to do?

business optimization? oh wait, no, the economy sux. so that isn't it.


They are afraid. Everyone with power is afraid someone will come along and take it from them. That is why power corrupts.
 
2013-07-24 08:19:03 PM

vudukungfu: They know what porn you love


Again, no one finds your vanilla porn to be the least bit interesting or notable.  You have to be into some pretty sick shiat to get onto some poor bureaucrat's radar.  Remember, there are 300 million Americans and you are competing with the guy who gets off watching clowns mung with partial-birth aborted fetuses.  Your secret folder of tranny porn isn't nearly as exotic as you imagine.  Honestly, if your porn is weird enough to be noticed, probably someone SHOULD keep an eye on you.
 
2013-07-24 08:21:03 PM
So if I'm not doing anything wrong, why do I need to worry?
 
2013-07-24 08:21:40 PM
I like Wyden more and more every day.
 
2013-07-24 08:22:10 PM
FTA, "Wyden closed by invoking the warning of James Madison from Federalist No. 47 ("The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands [...] may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny"). He asked, "By allowing the executive to secretly follow a secret interpretation of the law under the supervision of a secret, non-adversarial court and occasional secret Congressional hearings, how close are we to James Madison's definition of tyranny?""

Ovens would have to be fired up before some would see the problem.

/Thunderous applause
 
2013-07-24 08:24:41 PM

TFerWannaBe: That would explain why the battery doesn't last for more than 10 minutes


By Jove, I think you've got it!
 
2013-07-24 08:25:51 PM

Hollie Maea: vudukungfu: They know what porn you love

Again, no one finds your vanilla porn to be the least bit interesting or notable.  You have to be into some pretty sick shiat to get onto some poor bureaucrat's radar.  Remember, there are 300 million Americans and you are competing with the guy who gets off watching clowns mung with partial-birth aborted fetuses.  Your secret folder of tranny porn isn't nearly as exotic as you imagine.  Honestly, if your porn is weird enough to be noticed, probably someone SHOULD keep an eye on you.


So, my hidden folder of jailbaits pics, and the videos of interracial lesbians wearing clown make-up and butt plugs designed to look like horse tails pissing into each other's mouths while calling each other racial slurs while asphyxiating their own personal gimps to the point of them passing out and then kicking them repeatedly with stiletto heel shoes really isn't going to cause any notice within the U.S. government.
 
2013-07-24 08:27:00 PM
By the way, I should point out that I am opposed to these things on principal.  Just don't delude yourself that you could do anything to really get the government's attention without it being something way beyond what most people would be ok with doing.
 
2013-07-24 08:27:43 PM
On the whole, I prefer a world with metrics instead of the self-annointed thumb of BS politician or expert claiming his "rule of thumb" is the best predictor there is for anything from public opinion to how soon you'll get lucky. They can stay on TV. In fact, they make a great distraction and diversion in a very serious business.

There's even the metric of 3.7 degrees of separation of two random Twitter users. That changes the playing field for Guilt by Association which is defined as 3.0 apparently.

Before grocery stores and libraries gathered and made use of data, just a few had the power to decide for many. Someone who'd been there forever had in his head what to order and when. Now there's more like an instant inventory, sometimes even you can view that at home.

It's not perfect. Of course, trying to buy catnip in a Target today was unsuccessful, even through there were three aisles of dog stuff and a 10 space for anything other than cat food. Apparently 1% of Target shoppers own cats and a real manager or committee makes decisions about cats.

Predicting danger by matching patterns and putting together millions of data points just wasn't doable before. Discovering the economies of focused enterprises of those who mean us harm are better served by technology combined with the human genius to interpret larger and larger mappings of data.

On the other hand, give a five year old a loaded gun as he walks into a day care center and you can bet someone will probably lose an eye at least.
 
2013-07-24 08:28:09 PM

RedVentrue: utah dude: DubtodaIll: What is it about governments that they must use every avenue available, and make incredible efforts to create new avenues, to know absolutely everything about its populace? Really what's the point? Nothing better to do?

business optimization? oh wait, no, the economy sux. so that isn't it.

They are afraid. Everyone with power is afraid someone will come along and take it from them. That is why power corrupts.


so let me re-state this: business optimization, please!. because if there's no US economy left, there will be no tax dollars, and with no tax dollars no multibillion dollar NSA funding. so, please: business optimization.
 
2013-07-24 08:30:01 PM

BullBearMS: Is it too early to start stumping for a Wyden/Warren or Warren/Wyden electoral ticket?


Why not Wyden/Udall? The Udall's are a storied western political family.
 
2013-07-24 08:32:10 PM

RobertBruce: Cage your damn phones.


If you're going to do that, you can't get incoming calls... in which case why bother taking the phone with you at all?  Leave it at home when not using it.
 
2013-07-24 08:32:45 PM

Great Janitor: Hollie Maea: vudukungfu: They know what porn you love

Again, no one finds your vanilla porn to be the least bit interesting or notable.  You have to be into some pretty sick shiat to get onto some poor bureaucrat's radar.  Remember, there are 300 million Americans and you are competing with the guy who gets off watching clowns mung with partial-birth aborted fetuses.  Your secret folder of tranny porn isn't nearly as exotic as you imagine.  Honestly, if your porn is weird enough to be noticed, probably someone SHOULD keep an eye on you.

So, my hidden folder of jailbaits pics, and the videos of interracial lesbians wearing clown make-up and butt plugs designed to look like horse tails pissing into each other's mouths while calling each other racial slurs while asphyxiating their own personal gimps to the point of them passing out and then kicking them repeatedly with stiletto heel shoes really isn't going to cause any notice within the U.S. government.


That's a good start, but you really are going to need to up your game.  How do goats surgically altered to look like Hello Kitty make you feel?
 
2013-07-24 08:33:18 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: So if I'm not doing anything wrong, why do I need to worry?


I'm pretty sure if you had someone go over your life in detail a good lawyer could find at least a crime or two you commit every day, the reason you think you aren't doing anything wrong is probably because you don't realize what you are doing is already a crime and that the police don't know you are doing it because they aren't aware of every detail of your activity each day, yet.  So worry or don't, but realize you have a stake in the state of our country's privacy policy.

I figure you were being sarcastic, but answering the question literally is informative as well.
 
2013-07-24 08:39:59 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: So if I'm not doing anything wrong, why do I need to worry?


It's all in how the government decides to define "wrong" and how tight law enforcement is with the for-profit prison industry.
 
2013-07-24 08:43:58 PM

Hollie Maea: vudukungfu: They know what porn you love

Again, no one finds your vanilla porn to be the least bit interesting or notable.  You have to be into some pretty sick shiat to get onto some poor bureaucrat's radar.  Remember, there are 300 million Americans and you are competing with the guy who gets off watching clowns mung with partial-birth aborted fetuses.  Your secret folder of tranny porn isn't nearly as exotic as you imagine.  Honestly, if your porn is weird enough to be noticed, probably someone SHOULD keep an eye on you.


Do you think that information can't be used to control you? What if someone threatens to expose your tastes to your colleagues, wife, grandmother....
 
2013-07-24 08:44:17 PM
no shiat
 
2013-07-24 08:46:50 PM

skinink:


Nice reference! Also proof of my theory that John Cazale is the actor that has had the highest ratio of great movies. Not one stinker.
 
2013-07-24 08:48:36 PM

UseLessHuman: HotIgneous Intruder: So if I'm not doing anything wrong, why do I need to worry?

I'm pretty sure if you had someone go over your life in detail a good lawyer could find at least a crime or two you commit every day, the reason you think you aren't doing anything wrong is probably because you don't realize what you are doing is already a crime and that the police don't know you are doing it because they aren't aware of every detail of your activity each day, yet.  So worry or don't, but realize you have a stake in the state of our country's privacy policy.

I figure you were being sarcastic, but answering the question literally is informative as well.


It's useful to have this seared into everyone's brain so that the next time some law and order type suggests another way to monitor us at all times, you know to tell him to sod off.
 
2013-07-24 08:51:28 PM

Hollie Maea: Great Janitor: Hollie Maea: vudukungfu: They know what porn you love

Again, no one finds your vanilla porn to be the least bit interesting or notable.  You have to be into some pretty sick shiat to get onto some poor bureaucrat's radar.  Remember, there are 300 million Americans and you are competing with the guy who gets off watching clowns mung with partial-birth aborted fetuses.  Your secret folder of tranny porn isn't nearly as exotic as you imagine.  Honestly, if your porn is weird enough to be noticed, probably someone SHOULD keep an eye on you.

So, my hidden folder of jailbaits pics, and the videos of interracial lesbians wearing clown make-up and butt plugs designed to look like horse tails pissing into each other's mouths while calling each other racial slurs while asphyxiating their own personal gimps to the point of them passing out and then kicking them repeatedly with stiletto heel shoes really isn't going to cause any notice within the U.S. government.

That's a good start, but you really are going to need to up your game.  How do goats surgically altered to look like Hello Kitty make you feel?


That sounds rather tame compared to the videos of women doing sexual things to other animals before slaughtering them and cooking them up.  Kind of a sexual beastiality/snuff film/naked barbecuing film starring former Peta members for extra hotness.
 
2013-07-24 08:55:36 PM

Hollie Maea: Again, no one finds your vanilla porn to be the least bit interesting or notable.  You have to be into some pretty sick shiat to get onto some poor bureaucrat's radar.  Remember, there are 300 million Americans and you are competing with the guy who gets off watching clowns mung with partial-birth aborted fetuses.  Your secret folder of tranny porn isn't nearly as exotic as you imagine.  Honestly, if your porn is weird enough to be noticed, probably someone SHOULD keep an eye on you.


Until you cross someone in power.  Then it is front page news.  That's how this works.
 
2013-07-24 08:59:12 PM
Does nobody understand how the travel time prediction in Google Navigator works?  Every single phone going down the highway is being tracked. An aggregate of how fast they are moving gives a fairly accurate prediction of travel time for any given section of roadway. Every GPS ping is tied to a specific ID on the device.  Not hard to figure out where the device is.

/one ping
//one ping only
 
2013-07-24 08:59:45 PM
haha I use a dumbphone. it doesn't have gps.
 
2013-07-24 09:01:38 PM

skinink: [farm3.staticflickr.com image 500x312]


Great movie.
 
2013-07-24 09:02:04 PM

Captain Steroid: This isn't news.


Quite right. I always assumed my mobile phone was trackable.
 
2013-07-24 09:02:14 PM
Just leave the farking thing home.
 
2013-07-24 09:04:26 PM

Hobodeluxe: haha I use a dumbphone. it doesn't have gps.


You don't need a gps to be tracked.  Cell tower triangulation with forward link timing is enough to get a pretty precise position on you dumbphone.
 
2013-07-24 09:04:58 PM

ko_kyi: Until you cross someone in power. Then it is front page news. That's how this works.


And Obama was under surveillance since 2004. Remember when he campaigned to close GITMO, end warrantless wiretapping, and bring transparency back to government? Yeah about that...
 
2013-07-24 09:05:13 PM

Great Janitor: It's a sad day when there is a news article confirming that the U.S. government is using our cell phones to spy on us 24/7, and the response from the population is "yeah, we know."


Jesus, the article says that it is technically possible to use your phone to track you and you see this as confirmation that they are spying on you 24/7. Get some help. Seriously. There are medications that can significantly reduce paranoid delusions. Talk to your doctor.
 
2013-07-24 09:06:43 PM

fappomatic: I'm posting this from my bunk in Fort Leavenworth so I'm getting ++++ CARRIER SIGNAL LOST++++


that is a purdy message... back in 150/300 baud days we got:

"g35e#7(6*!" and other random gibberish, then if we were really lucky, it would say carrier lost...

what RAM looked like in my day:
www.technikum29.de

/uphill both ways and loved it
 
2013-07-24 09:10:39 PM

Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim: Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not.

Um, have you not been paying attention?  Yes, THEY ARE.  Thats the whole point of these stories.  The government IS listening in on all phone calls and internet activity.  Since position of your phone is part of the meta data, it is recorded too.
Recorded forever.
I think people don't really grasp the magnitude of whats happening.  They know more about you than you do! They know more about you than you do, because they don't forget.


How many people do you think the NSA would need to listen to all phone calls? How much storage space to record all of them?
 
2013-07-24 09:14:41 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: So if I'm not doing anything wrong, why do I need to worry?


More chance to run into a dirty cop?
 
2013-07-24 09:15:46 PM

Hollie Maea: By the way, I should point out that I am opposed to these things on principal.  Just don't delude yourself that you could do anything to really get the government's attention without it being something way beyond what most people would be ok with doing.


Slippery slope that is.
 
2013-07-24 09:19:15 PM
jj325: That's why I pay cash for disposables

i1145.photobucket.com

The additional layer of security is comforting.
 
2013-07-24 09:22:12 PM

jestme: Do you think that information can't be used to control you? What if someone threatens to expose your tastes to your colleagues, wife, grandmother....


You've been watching The Net too many times.
 
2013-07-24 09:22:25 PM
Actually, it goes deeper than that.
mysticalchrist.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-07-24 09:22:35 PM
Eventually a Republican will be President again, and all of this surveillance will be doubled, but it will be OK.
 
2013-07-24 09:23:19 PM

StoPPeRmobile: Hollie Maea: By the way, I should point out that I am opposed to these things on principal.  Just don't delude yourself that you could do anything to really get the government's attention without it being something way beyond what most people would be ok with doing.

Slippery slope that is.


What's funny is that you don't understand that "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy.
 
2013-07-24 09:28:26 PM

cameroncrazy1984: jestme: Do you think that information can't be used to control you? What if someone threatens to expose your tastes to your colleagues, wife, grandmother....

You've been watching The Net too many times.


Nobody cares. Hell, if you abandon your post and go cheat on your wife, on the taxpayer's dime, you can still get elected to public office. Tweet pictures of your dong to random women after having to resign from office for tweeting pictures of your dong? No problem. Hiring high-class call girls while married? Well, that doesn't really bother me if you weren't using taxpayer bucks, and you're not a "family values" nitwit. But still.
 
2013-07-24 09:28:26 PM
This is an outrage...why just this morning I woke up and went about my business.
 
2013-07-24 09:31:22 PM
my cell phone isn't attached to my name in any legal sense
so the point is moot


MOOT
 
2013-07-24 09:33:38 PM

kg2095: Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim: Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not.

Um, have you not been paying attention?  Yes, THEY ARE.  Thats the whole point of these stories.  The government IS listening in on all phone calls and internet activity.  Since position of your phone is part of the meta data, it is recorded too.
Recorded forever.
I think people don't really grasp the magnitude of whats happening.  They know more about you than you do! They know more about you than you do, because they don't forget.



kg2095: How many people do you think the NSA would need to listen to all phone calls?


They only listen to the phone calls of people they're interested in. The cool part is, that if they become interested in you, they can not only monitor the calls you make today, but conversations you may have "persons of interest" from months or years earlier.


kg2095:  How much storage space to record all of them?


Do you believe in YouTube?
 
2013-07-24 09:37:22 PM
The NSA is not spying on us. They do not care what porn you are watching or what music video you watched or how many cyst popping videos you have viewed on YouTube.  Their only concern is Setec Astronomy.
 
2013-07-24 09:39:58 PM

BullBearMS: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: new_york_monty: Captain Steroid: This isn't news.

That they can do this isn't really news, although it is something everyone should be aware is possible. If they are doing this without a warrant or with a blanket warrant though, that would be newsworthy. Of course I see no indications that they are doing so in the article, so I'm going to withhold my outrage for now.

Law enforcement has been obtaining cell phone location data without warrants for years.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/warrantless-cellphone-tracking-leg al -federal-court-rules-944452

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/exclusive-what-local-cops-learn-ca rr iers-earn-cellphone-records-721604?franchiseSlug=technolog

It's also the position of the Obama administration.

The Obama administration told a federal court Tuesday that the public has no "reasonable expectation of privacy" in cellphone location data, and hence the authorities may obtain documents detailing a person's movements from wireless carriers without a probable-cause warrant.


How liberal of them.
 
2013-07-24 09:42:02 PM

cameroncrazy1984: StoPPeRmobile: Hollie Maea: By the way, I should point out that I am opposed to these things on principal.  Just don't delude yourself that you could do anything to really get the government's attention without it being something way beyond what most people would be ok with doing.

Slippery slope that is.

What's funny is that you don't understand that "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy.


Not anymore. It has become a logical reality.
 
2013-07-24 09:42:11 PM

2wolves: olddinosaur: Mija: Captain Steroid: This isn't news.

Alex Jones talked about this years ago.

Yeah, and at the time everyone denounced him as a crackpot.

Funny how times change.

This came up a couple of months ago on Fark and I was called a Ludite, a paranoid, and an old grump. I plead guilty to the latter.


No no no, this is old news, no one cares, and there is no problem!

Said every Obama supporter on Fark.

Authoritarian DINOs.
 
2013-07-24 09:43:43 PM

ChuDogg: ko_kyi: Until you cross someone in power. Then it is front page news. That's how this works.

And Obama was under surveillance since 2004. Remember when he campaigned to close GITMO, end warrantless wiretapping, and bring transparency back to government? Yeah about that...


Pepperidge Farms remembers.
 
2013-07-24 09:44:58 PM

cameroncrazy1984: StoPPeRmobile: Hollie Maea: By the way, I should point out that I am opposed to these things on principal.  Just don't delude yourself that you could do anything to really get the government's attention without it being something way beyond what most people would be ok with doing.

Slippery slope that is.

What's funny is that you don't understand that "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy.



The belief that any "slippery slope" proposition is necessarily a "logical fallacy" is itself a fallacy.
 
2013-07-24 09:47:55 PM
Hollie Maea:  watching clowns mung

Now that's a great name for a band!

/sorry, it had to happen eventually
 
2013-07-24 09:50:42 PM

Amos Quito: kg2095: Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim: Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not.

Um, have you not been paying attention?  Yes, THEY ARE.  Thats the whole point of these stories.  The government IS listening in on all phone calls and internet activity.  Since position of your phone is part of the meta data, it is recorded too.
Recorded forever.
I think people don't really grasp the magnitude of whats happening.  They know more about you than you do! They know more about you than you do, because they don't forget.


kg2095: How many people do you think the NSA would need to listen to all phone calls?


They only listen to the phone calls of people they're interested in. The cool part is, that if they become interested in you, they can not only monitor the calls you make today, but conversations you may have "persons of interest" from months or years earlier.


kg2095:  How much storage space to record all of them?


Do you believe in YouTube?


Bull. It's not just the storage space but the pipe, the series of tubes, that it would take to funnel every freaking phone call into NSAs data facility in real time. That just ain't possible.
 
2013-07-24 09:52:56 PM

cameroncrazy1984: What's funny is that you don't understand that "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy.


Not automatically. It's a logical fallacy if you presume the slide without supporting each... hmm... stage of the way down?
 
2013-07-24 09:53:32 PM

kg2095: Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim: Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not.

Um, have you not been paying attention?  Yes, THEY ARE.  Thats the whole point of these stories.  The government IS listening in on all phone calls and internet activity.  Since position of your phone is part of the meta data, it is recorded too.
Recorded forever.
I think people don't really grasp the magnitude of whats happening.  They know more about you than you do! They know more about you than you do, because they don't forget.

How many people do you think the NSA would need to listen to all phone calls? How much storage space to record all of them?


about this much storage space:
msnbcmedia.msn.com
Not sure about tracking real time, but once they've got you they'll have the evidence.
 
2013-07-24 09:53:57 PM

revrendjim: Great Janitor: It's a sad day when there is a news article confirming that the U.S. government is using our cell phones to spy on us 24/7, and the response from the population is "yeah, we know."

Jesus, the article says that it is technically possible to use your phone to track you and you see this as confirmation that they are spying on you 24/7. Get some help. Seriously. There are medications that can significantly reduce paranoid delusions. Talk to your doctor.



Too many in this thread don't actually comprehend. THEY ARE RECORDING YOUR META-DATA RIGHT NOW (location is meta data) and it is SAVED FOREVER.  They don't have to have you in mind or know who you are when they do it, because it is being done 100% of the time for EVERYONE and this information can be searched like google.
Snowden showed that this information can be accessed by any number of people who have no legal reason to do so.
Unscrupulous persons can use this information to OWN YOU.
 
2013-07-24 09:54:34 PM
I leave mine on the fish tank, so all they hear are soothing bubbles.
 
2013-07-24 10:00:34 PM

sendtodave: 2wolves: olddinosaur: Mija: Captain Steroid: This isn't news.

Alex Jones talked about this years ago.

Yeah, and at the time everyone denounced him as a crackpot.

Funny how times change.

This came up a couple of months ago on Fark and I was called a Ludite, a paranoid, and an old grump. I plead guilty to the latter.

No no no, this is old news, no one cares, and there is no problem!

Said every Obama supporter on Fark.

Authoritarian DINOs.


When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, I wasn't a Jew;

When they came for the Communists, I said nothing, I wasn't a Communist;

When they came for the labor unionists, I said nothing, I wasn't a labor unionist;

When they came for the Catholics I sand nothing, I wasn't a Catholic;

When they came for me, there was nobody left to say anything.

DOES HISTORY REPEAT ITSELF?
 
2013-07-24 10:04:42 PM

Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim: Great Janitor: It's a sad day when there is a news article confirming that the U.S. government is using our cell phones to spy on us 24/7, and the response from the population is "yeah, we know."

Jesus, the article says that it is technically possible to use your phone to track you and you see this as confirmation that they are spying on you 24/7. Get some help. Seriously. There are medications that can significantly reduce paranoid delusions. Talk to your doctor.


Too many in this thread don't actually comprehend. THEY ARE RECORDING YOUR META-DATA RIGHT NOW (location is meta data) and it is SAVED FOREVER.  They don't have to have you in mind or know who you are when they do it, because it is being done 100% of the time for EVERYONE and this information can be searched like google.
Snowden showed that this information can be accessed by any number of people who have no legal reason to do so.
Unscrupulous persons can use this information to OWN YOU.


just join a mafia, nobody can touch mafias not even Putin
 
2013-07-24 10:07:48 PM
olddinosaur
When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, I wasn't a Jew;

When they came for the Communists, I said nothing, I wasn't a Communist;

When they came for the labor unionists, I said nothing, I wasn't a labor unionist;

When they came for the Catholics I sand nothing, I wasn't a Catholic;


If only those guys had had nothing to hide, they wouldn't have had anything to fear!
 
2013-07-24 10:10:04 PM
Two words: realtime polling

Forget about them coming after you for your guns, or your bible, or your questionable porn tastes, or your antidisestablishmentarianism. They don't give a shiat about us, individually.

But if you could gauge the anger or fear of the electorate at any given time, if you could analyse our emails and tweets and blog posts and living room discussions in the agregate...thats better data for the political spin machine.

Imagine if your political strategists got poll results within minutes instead of days, due to this mass surveillance campaign? The politicians could modify their sound bytes fron one moment to the next, to trim their sails perfectly against the prevailing political winds.

Imagine if you could analyze it all realtime, and in response to instant changes in voter sentiment, feed the proper statements into the president's teleprompter, live?

You now have a machine that can generate political support for literally anything, whenever it wants.
 
2013-07-24 10:13:43 PM

Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim: Great Janitor: It's a sad day when there is a news article confirming that the U.S. government is using our cell phones to spy on us 24/7, and the response from the population is "yeah, we know."

Jesus, the article says that it is technically possible to use your phone to track you and you see this as confirmation that they are spying on you 24/7. Get some help. Seriously. There are medications that can significantly reduce paranoid delusions. Talk to your doctor.


Too many in this thread don't actually comprehend. THEY ARE RECORDING YOUR META-DATA RIGHT NOW (location is meta data) and it is SAVED FOREVER.  They don't have to have you in mind or know who you are when they do it, because it is being done 100% of the time for EVERYONE and this information can be searched like google.
Snowden showed that this information can be accessed by any number of people who have no legal reason to do so.
Unscrupulous persons can use this information to OWN YOU.


Your meta data is not protected. Heck, they sell that to marketing companies. It's what's written on the outside of the envelope for everyone to see.
 
2013-07-24 10:15:07 PM

davynelson: my cell phone isn't attached to my name in any legal sense
so the point is moot

MOOT


Do you save any phone numbers in the phone's memory?
 
2013-07-24 10:16:10 PM

kg2095: Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim: Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not.

Um, have you not been paying attention?  Yes, THEY ARE.  Thats the whole point of these stories.  The government IS listening in on all phone calls and internet activity.  Since position of your phone is part of the meta data, it is recorded too.
Recorded forever.
I think people don't really grasp the magnitude of whats happening.  They know more about you than you do! They know more about you than you do, because they don't forget.

How many people do you think the NSA would need to listen to all phone calls? How much storage space to record all of them?


They don't need people, and they have plenty of storage.

data center
 
2013-07-24 10:17:22 PM

ski9600: kg2095: Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim:

How many people do you think the NSA would need to listen to all phone calls? How much storage space to record all of them?

about this much storage space:
[msnbcmedia.msn.com image 850x456]
Not sure about tracking real time, but once they've got you they'll have the evidence.


Interesting that they included at least  twoSprung structures in that design (I think the fark filter must be combining two and sprung, lol I do not know why).  I guess a Utah senator made them use Utah products there some how.   sprung.com

/ Isn't one of the major computer memory companies based in Utah also?
 
2013-07-24 10:17:37 PM
Is there anyone who doesn't know that the first thing you do is ditch your cell phone and don't even think about calling any of your contacts? Seriously.
 
2013-07-24 10:21:45 PM
I love my senator.  Wyden is a stud.
 
HBK
2013-07-24 10:32:02 PM

theMagni: I use Runkeeper to track my bike rides and runs.  I tell people the app doesn't track me, it just shows me the data the phone company is already collecting on me.


Runkeeper drains the shiat out of my battery. If the GPS was always on, I'd need to recharge my phone twice a day.
 
2013-07-24 10:34:34 PM

KeatingFive: Eventually a Republican will be President again, and all of this surveillance will be doubled, but it will be OK.


Not if that Republican is Rand Paul.
 
2013-07-24 10:37:10 PM

ChuDogg: And Obama was under surveillance since 2004. Remember when he campaigned to close GITMO, end warrantless wiretapping, and bring transparency back to government? Yeah about that...


I'm far more afraid of corruption at the local level than at the national level.  I'm just another insect to the fed, but get someone with local PD influence against you and look out.
 
2013-07-24 10:38:28 PM

Surool: I had already noticed when pulling up Google Maps that it not only showed that I was home, but it was placing the dot within 15 feet of my location inside the house (when zoomed in). Not news.


I went for a hike this evening; usually my GPS is turned off but I was curious where I was on the terrain map. The default position showed me about 15 miles NW of my actual location, which was funny except if I hurt myself they'd never have found me. I was kind of glad I turned it on after that, even if it was just for a minute.
 
2013-07-24 10:39:38 PM
Just wait until this Senator learns about cookies when surfing the internet.
 
2013-07-24 10:39:59 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: So if I'm not doing anything wrong, why do I need to worry?


You only think you are not doing anything wrong.

Politics change over time.  What happens when we get tricked into voting some evil bastard into office?  What happens is that you get taken to the offices of Homeland Security to discuss your political views from twenty years ago.
 
2013-07-24 10:43:00 PM

Wrencher: kg2095: Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim: Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not.

Um, have you not been paying attention?  Yes, THEY ARE.  Thats the whole point of these stories.  The government IS listening in on all phone calls and internet activity.  Since position of your phone is part of the meta data, it is recorded too.
Recorded forever.
I think people don't really grasp the magnitude of whats happening.  They know more about you than you do! They know more about you than you do, because they don't forget.

How many people do you think the NSA would need to listen to all phone calls? How much storage space to record all of them?

They don't need people, and they have plenty of storage.

data center


Still can't store all the cell phone calls even just from the US each day. 320m calls per day of various lengths. I'm sure they can record and store a lot, but all for all of time? Nah, too much. Also, are they storing it as wave files or do they transcribe it? That's the real question. You could store that much text, easily.

They just set to purge specific data though and it might be more reasonable.
 
2013-07-24 10:44:58 PM

Sgygus: HotIgneous Intruder: So if I'm not doing anything wrong, why do I need to worry?

You only think you are not doing anything wrong.

Politics change over time.   What happens when we get tricked into voting some evil bastard into office?



You mean... like... just about every presidential election since JFK died?


/We didn't get "here" by accident
 
2013-07-24 10:45:09 PM
To everyone who cheered when the USA PATRIOT Act was passed, but are whining about it now that there's a Kenyan Muslin Usurper president: fark you. Anyone who supported and cheered that abortion of law deserves to be cavity searched repeatedly by FBI goons.
 
2013-07-24 10:56:08 PM

LincolnLogolas: To everyone who cheered when the USA PATRIOT Act was passed, but are whining about it now that there's a Kenyan Muslin Usurper president: fark you. Anyone who supported and cheered that abortion of law deserves to be cavity searched repeatedly by FBI goons.



It's not easy to con people into accepting - nay - cheering draconian demands that naturally run contrary to their best interests...


3.bp.blogspot.com

But it can be done.
 
2013-07-24 10:59:11 PM

Sgygus: Politics change over time. What happens when we get tricked into voting some evil bastard into office?


Don't we always?
 
2013-07-24 11:03:33 PM

LincolnLogolas: To everyone who cheered when the USA PATRIOT Act was passed, but are whining about it now that there's a Kenyan Muslin Usurper president: fark you. Anyone who supported and cheered that abortion of law deserves to be cavity searched repeatedly by FBI goons.


try the veal.
 
2013-07-24 11:06:18 PM

Hollie Maea: The government is way too busy to pay any attention to where you are going.

Holy shiat! Mr. Thinks-he's-way-more-important-than-he-is went to the grocery store again!  If you are managing to get on anyone's radar, you are doing some pretty hardcore shiat.  Just think of the people you are competing with for the Government's attention.

And no, just because you are maintaining a blog about gun rights doesn't mean the government gives a shiat about you.


Why is this always about some self-aggrandizing schmuck and his overinflated ego? What if MLK Jr's every move, from his hypothetical first facebook post on through his teens and young adulthood, had been recorded? If that history could be perused and cherry picked at J Edgar's will and spun 180 million ways from Sunday... his character would have been assassinated so decisively that his dream would be nothing more than to have been buried with it.
 
2013-07-24 11:31:06 PM

YouPeopleAreCrazy: No, they cannot track my cellphone.

It is a seriously old clamshell dumbphone. No GPS, no WiFi. It is currently off. And the battery is probably dead. It lives in the glove compartment of my truck.

Why do I still have it? No idea.


Yes, they can still track you.  Very easily through tower triangulation.  Even when your phone is off.
 
2013-07-24 11:35:46 PM
CSB

I have an Android phone with a couple of games on it. I get the free games, so I'm accustomed to seeing in-game ads. One day, my co-worker and I were discussing the benefits of Gorilla Glass. Later that night, the ads in my game were for Gorilla Glass.

Odd, but surely a coincidence, right?

A week later, we're having a party at the house and everyone is discussing their escapades of underage drinking.

The next day - ads for "Help Curb Teenage Drinking" and "Think Your Teen Might Be Drinking?"

Keep in mind, this wasn't anything I searched for on my phone - just things that were discussed in the vicinity of my phone while it was on standby.

/CSB
 
2013-07-24 11:45:26 PM

Amos Quito: kg2095: Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim: Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not.

Um, have you not been paying attention?  Yes, THEY ARE.  Thats the whole point of these stories.  The government IS listening in on all phone calls and internet activity.  Since position of your phone is part of the meta data, it is recorded too.
Recorded forever.
I think people don't really grasp the magnitude of whats happening.  They know more about you than you do! They know more about you than you do, because they don't forget.


kg2095: How many people do you think the NSA would need to listen to all phone calls?


They only listen to the phone calls of people they're interested in. The cool part is, that if they become interested in you, they can not only monitor the calls you make today, but conversations you may have "persons of interest" from months or years earlier.


kg2095:  How much storage space to record all of them?


Do you believe in YouTube?


That's not at all the same. We are talking about monitoring and recording every single phone conversation.
 
2013-07-24 11:49:35 PM
THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS ACT OF 1996

http://www.stern.nyu.edu/networks/telco96.html

/read 'em and weep
 
2013-07-25 12:16:56 AM

justtray: Wrencher: kg2095: Boloxor the Insipid: revrendjim: Just because they can do something doesn't mean they are. The government has had the ability to listen to your phone calls for more than 100 years, but they're probably not.

Um, have you not been paying attention?  Yes, THEY ARE.  Thats the whole point of these stories.  The government IS listening in on all phone calls and internet activity.  Since position of your phone is part of the meta data, it is recorded too.
Recorded forever.
I think people don't really grasp the magnitude of whats happening.  They know more about you than you do! They know more about you than you do, because they don't forget.

How many people do you think the NSA would need to listen to all phone calls? How much storage space to record all of them?

They don't need people, and they have plenty of storage.

data center

Still can't store all the cell phone calls even just from the US each day. 320m calls per day of various lengths. I'm sure they can record and store a lot, but all for all of time? Nah, too much. Also, are they storing it as wave files or do they transcribe it? That's the real question. You could store that much text, easily.

They just set to purge specific data though and it might be more reasonable.


How many 1 terabyte thumb drives could be packed into a 1,000,000 sq/ft warehouse?
 
2013-07-25 12:21:55 AM
Roy Wyden must be the last man to know
 
2013-07-25 12:34:44 AM

HeadbangerSmurf: How the hell do you think 911 calls are tracked so they can find you when you call?


Yeah.  I didnt realize this until I made a 911 call several years ago for a domestic incident in front of my house.  Not only did the dispatcher (or someone with the PD) call my cell back (I didnt give my number), but an officer also knocked on my door (didnt give my specific address just the block I live on).

That was a reality check of sorts.
 
2013-07-25 12:40:36 AM

caddisfly: LoneCraneFullMoon: I already leave my phone at home when I'm out committing crimes for this very reason.

Yeah.  Let's leave our phones at home and go get sushi and not pay!


s3.amazonaws.com
approve
 
2013-07-25 12:49:49 AM

Frederick: HeadbangerSmurf: How the hell do you think 911 calls are tracked so they can find you when you call?

Yeah.  I didnt realize this until I made a 911 call several years ago for a domestic incident in front of my house.  Not only did the dispatcher (or someone with the PD) call my cell back (I didnt give my number), but an officer also knocked on my door (didnt give my specific address just the block I live on).


That was a reality check of sorts.


Where have you been?
It's alright we know where you've been.

Welcome to the machine
 
2013-07-25 12:57:04 AM
Let'em track me.  Don't know about anyone else, but my routine is bound to get boring quick.  Go to the Veterans Hospital, go to grocery, help my daughter get to classes at her college, pick up the dry-cleaning, distribute the coke I scored last night, drop by Barnes and Noble, go home for a nap, check out Fark, have some brews, make nice with the wife when she gets in from working at the church.  That's about it.  Meh.
 
2013-07-25 01:29:09 AM
I've got a bad case of outrage/fear fatigue.
 
2013-07-25 01:30:43 AM
Good.

Catch some criminals maybe.

/they'll pursue me right before they come after the jaywalkers.
 
2013-07-25 01:58:21 AM

aspAddict: CSB

I have an Android phone with a couple of games on it. I get the free games, so I'm accustomed to seeing in-game ads. One day, my co-worker and I were discussing the benefits of Gorilla Glass. Later that night, the ads in my game were for Gorilla Glass.

Odd, but surely a coincidence, right?

A week later, we're having a party at the house and everyone is discussing their escapades of underage drinking.

The next day - ads for "Help Curb Teenage Drinking" and "Think Your Teen Might Be Drinking?"

Keep in mind, this wasn't anything I searched for on my phone - just things that were discussed in the vicinity of my phone while it was on standby.

/CSB


That's a mite bit disturbing. I'd love to take a look at the source code for that app... granted I'd have to know a language other than Visual Basic first though >.<

/still learning
 
2013-07-25 02:01:12 AM
When will it end? Are they going to track track our license plates now?


What?


i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-25 02:23:55 AM

Sgygus: HotIgneous Intruder: So if I'm not doing anything wrong, why do I need to worry?

You only think you are not doing anything wrong.


Pretty sure the Intruder understands this.  You can find the full text of Wyden's remarks here.  Meanwhile, today the House voted down the Amash-Conyers amendment to the defense appropriations bill, which would have poked a big stick in the NSA's eye.  4ts went on CSPAN as the debate was finishing and heard some D's and R's saying some fine sounding things in 30 and 60 second bites; lots of versions of the line about not giving up liberty for security and similar high flown rhetoric about the 4th and the NSA being out of control.  It actually made me feel like somebody was getting it.

Then this crazy looking buzz-cut R got up for the two minute rebuttal and said the surveillance has saved "untold" numbers of American lives, and when he was on the battlefield in Iraq he needed to know right away where the bad guy was, and WE ARE AT WAR!! (twice, for emphasis).  Measure defeated on voice vote.

He knew he was going to win, so he kind of phoned it in, but really, does any sane person believe that someday we will be able to declare that the threat of a terrorist attack has disappeared and we are no longer "at war"?  Right, so it's perpetual martial law then.  Fark us.
 
2013-07-25 04:15:53 AM
This means there's an individual person at a terminal somewhere watching a map pinpointing my exact location, video feeds from both of my phone's cameras and an audio feed from the mic.

Because any kind of surveillance automatically means all imaginable kinds.
 
2013-07-25 05:47:31 AM
You don't understand, dear naive writer for Ars Technica, I would willingly give up my mobile phone so I could not be tracked and targeted for killing by drones. Damn thing is too expensive and annoying anyway.
 
2013-07-25 06:07:40 AM

wambu: When will it end? Are they going to track track our license plates now?


What?


[i.imgur.com image 500x327]


They will use digital plates for that.
 
2013-07-25 07:33:29 AM

jj325: That's why I pay cash for disposables


That doesn't help.

Why?

Because it's *TRACKING* you.  Every few minutes, it pings the local cell towers so that the system knows where the phone is.

If they want to know what the number of your burner phone is so that they can track you, all they have to do is use a simple query to find out which phone numbers have been at your home address, and which phone numbers have been at your work address, and look for the common number.

It's as simple as this:

select distinct a.phone_number from nsa_cell_ping_table a
  where a.latitude = [latitude of your home]
     and a.longitude = [longitude of your home]
     and exists (select 'x' from nsa_cell_ping_table b
                           where b.phone_number = a.phone_number
                               and b.latitude = [latitude of your work]
                               and b.longitude = [longitude of your work])


That's all there is to something like that.  That little snippet of SQL would give a list of every phone number that's been both at your home *AND* at your work.  From there, they can simply winnow out co-workers who visited your home by looking at the patterns.

Ah, you say:  You'll just get a new burner phone regularly!

That won't help, because they can just run that query every day (and running it using the date and time as a key along with the lat/lon would make it run much faster anyway) and they could figure out your knew number within a couple of days.

All of this is facilitated by the NSA grabbing all the metadata on phone records and storing it.  They *SAY* they need a warrant to access the data, but they also said they weren't collecting the data itself, and that was shown to be a lie.
 
2013-07-25 07:38:09 AM
If you do not want to be tracked turn you cell phone off and take the battery out.
 
2013-07-25 07:55:37 AM
wfiles.brothersoft.com
 
2013-07-25 07:56:54 AM
I know this is going to wrankle a few folks. What's driving all this consternation? Is it paranoia, or an inflated sense of self-importance? If you're of interest to anyone, and I mean anyone, they can find you; with or without an electronic communications device in your pocket.
 
2013-07-25 07:57:18 AM
This is why I always give my cell phone to a random homeless guy when I'm not using it.

Or I put it on the conveyor belt at the sushi place.

Simple precautions, people.
 
2013-07-25 07:59:50 AM

4tehsnowflakes: the House voted down the Amash-Conyers amendment to the defense appropriations bill, which would have poked a big stick in the NSA's eye


True enough, but you leave out the part where the vote to shut it down was very, very close.

The vote was also incredibly bipartisan.

111 Democrats and 94 Republicans voted to shut down NSA spying.

They only missed by 7 votes.

So when the lying liars claim that Congress supports blanket spying, everyone should remember that they are full of shait.
 
2013-07-25 08:07:36 AM

GrymReeper: What's driving all this consternation?


I know, right?

If you can't trust the Executive Branch when they create their own secret laws usurping the role of Congress, and then assert that the Judicial Branch can't rule on the legality of their actions because of national security, who can you trust?

Wasn't the whole point of creating three branches of government in a system of checks and balances to throw that all away, because terrorism?

Sane people opposed this when Bush did it and oppose it just as much now that Obama is doing it.
 
2013-07-25 08:11:58 AM

fark'emfeed'emfish: Why is this always about some self-aggrandizing schmuck and his overinflated ego? What if MLK Jr's every move, from his hypothetical first facebook post on through his teens and young adulthood, had been recorded? If that history could be perused and cherry picked at J Edgar's will and spun 180 million ways from Sunday... his character would have been assassinated so decisively that his dream would be nothing more than to have been buried with it.


Well, there's a good chance that if MLK Jr was raised in the time of Facebook, he'd be to busy trying to get past level 96 on Candy Crush to do any marching or speaking.
 
2013-07-25 08:15:12 AM

BullBearMS: If you can't trust the Executive Branch when they create their own secret laws usurping the role of Congress, and then assert that the Judicial Branch can't rule on the legality of their actions because of national security, who can you trust?


Maybe I haven't been following this closely, but hasn't the Administration's defense of their program been specifically that it was supervised by the Judicial branch (FISA)?  Did I miss something?

Wasn't the whole point of creating three branches of government in a system of checks and balances to throw that all away, because terrorism?

Sane people opposed this when Bush did it and oppose it just as much now that Obama is doing it.


Bush said outright that the Judicial branch couldn't review his programs.  Unless I missed something, Obama was saying that FISA does review them.  That's kind of a significant difference.
 
2013-07-25 08:18:04 AM

boinkingbill: If you do not want to be tracked turn you cell phone off and take the battery out.


, don't drive and don't carry your bank cards.
 
2013-07-25 08:25:49 AM

BullBearMS: If you can't trust the Executive Branch when they create their own secret laws usurping the role of Congress, and then assert that the Judicial Branch can't rule on the legality of their actions because of national security, who can you trust?


This claim isn't even backed up by the linked article.  Wyden's beef isn't that the judicial branch can't oversee the programs, but merely that they aren't as aggressive or as adversarial as he would like.  And there is no suggestion that the Executive is acting illegally, but instead in accordance with the powers Congress has granted them--Which, again, Wyden thinks are overbroad.

So, this really isn't a situation where the checks and balances of the three branches of government are being abrogated, but instead a situation where they are all in place, but an outcome that many people find unsatisfactory has still resulted.
 
2013-07-25 08:32:10 AM

boinkingbill: If you do not want to be tracked turn you cell phone off and take the battery out.


At which point you might as well just not have a cell phone, because it's largely useless as a communications device that way.

If, on the other hand, you use simple radios to communicate, you ironically have a more secure device:  Granted, it's easier to casually eavesdrop on a radio conversation, but there are several advantages over a cell phone when it comes to government monitoring:

1. The installed infrastructure to listen to those communications everywhere all the time just isn't there.  Satellites don't help, either, because a monitoring satellite isn't going to be able to distinguish your particular conversation out of the several hundred simultaneous ones it hears on the same frequency.

2. The installed infrastructure to direction-find the signal when you are transmitting just isn't there, unlike with the cell phone network.  That means that in order to find out where you are, they would have to assign direction finding assets to your 'local' area, and there just aren't that many assets to go around.

3. When you aren't transmitting, there is no way for them to know where you are.  A radio in receive mode doesn't give away it's position.
 
2013-07-25 08:34:21 AM

Skleenar: Maybe I haven't been following this closely, but hasn't the Administration's defense of their program been specifically that it was supervised by the Judicial branch (FISA)? Did I miss something?


How legit do you think a secret court whose judges are composed entirely of Republicans hand selected by Justice Roberts without any Congressional oversight is?

It's rulings are secret.

The only lawyer who appears before it states the government's case with no opposing counsel representing the interests of the people.

The record shows that the secret court has only denied the Government in .03% of all cases before it. EVAR.

Doesn't sound legit.

Or do you think the Republicans should be allowed to trash the Constitution in secret without oversight from any elected official?
 
2013-07-25 08:43:12 AM
I retired in 2007 and also retired my cell phone 5 months later when the required contract was up. I went off the smart phone grid. Every day I check the mail to see if my free government issued smart phone has arrived as I think there must be a dozen or so people assigned to me to see why I am not traceable 24/7. This stuff must drive them crazy if they can't find you at any given minute.
 
2013-07-25 08:44:05 AM

Skleenar: Bush said outright that the Judicial branch couldn't review his programs.  Unless I missed something, Obama was saying that FISA does review them.  That's kind of a significant difference.


The head of the NSA under Obama testified to Congress that the NSA doesn't collect the metadata from everyone in the US.  This was proven to be a lie by the documents that Edward Snowden leaked.

Now, I'm aware of the pressure that General Alexander and James Clapper were under:  The programs were highly classified, so they couldn't talk about them or reveal them through not talking about them (ie., saying something like "I can't answer that question in open session", or even "no comment").  So basically, they were in a Kobayashi Maru scenario:  Either break the law by revealing the programs (and perhaps reducing their effectiveness), or break the law by lying to Congress while under oath.

I happen to think they failed.
 
2013-07-25 08:47:41 AM

bunzer: I retired in 2007 and also retired my cell phone 5 months later when the required contract was up. I went off the smart phone grid. Every day I check the mail to see if my free government issued smart phone has arrived as I think there must be a dozen or so people assigned to me to see why I am not traceable 24/7. This stuff must drive them crazy if they can't find you at any given minute.


I've *NEVER* owned a cell phone.  The only time I carry one is during emergencies, like when I have to check up on my elderly father because no one has heard from him in a couple of days, and in that case I take my wife's cell with me.

So in reality, I've never really been *ON* the cell phone grid.  They want to follow my every move, they're going to have to do it the old fashioned way.
 
2013-07-25 08:47:56 AM

Skleenar: Bush said outright that the Judicial branch couldn't review his programs.


Obama has also said the the Judicial Branch couldn't review both his programs and Bush's programs.

Friday afternoon, the Obama DOJ filed the government's Weeners to EFF's lawsuit (.pdf), the first of its kind to seek damages against government officials under FISA, the Wiretap Act and other statutes, arising out of Bush's NSA program. But the Obama DOJ demanded dismissal of the entire lawsuit based on (1) its Bush-mimicking claim that the "state secrets" privilege bars any lawsuits against the Bush administration for illegal spying, and (2) a brand new "sovereign immunity" claim of breathtaking scope - never before advanced even by the Bush administration - that the Patriot Act bars any lawsuits of any kind for illegal government surveillance unless there is "willful disclosure" of the illegally intercepted communications.

In other words, beyond even the outrageously broad "state secrets" privilege invented by the Bush administration and now embraced fully by the Obama administration, the Obama DOJ has now invented a brand new claim of government immunity, one which literally asserts that the U.S. Government is free to intercept all of your communications (calls, emails and the like) and - even if what they're doing is blatantly illegal and they know it's illegal - you are barred from suing them unless they "willfully disclose" to the public what they have learned.


Just as he has claimed that the Senate Intelligence Committee, which was created to have oversight on the CIA, was not allowed to know what secret law he felt allowed him to order the murder of American citizens without due process.

Senator Ron Wyden, an Oregon Democrat, has sent an extraordinary letter to top White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan, President Obama's choice to lead the CIA. The letter poses questions about executive power, like "How much evidence does the President need to determine that a particular American can be lawfully killed?" and "Does the President have to provide individual Americans with the opportunity to surrender before killing them?" We're used to such questions from organizations like the ACLU, journalists like Charlie Savage, and various concerned citizens. And though rules that confer death should always be transparent, the fact that they're being kept even from Wyden is especially indefensible.

The body he sits on, the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, is charged with providing "vigilant legislative oversight over the intelligence activities of the United States," to ensure "that they conform with the Constitution and U.S. law." There is no one in America more justified in demanding to know the official legal rationale behind actions like targeted killings. Obama isn't just keeping this information from the American people. He isn't just hiding his legal reasoning from the U.S. Congress. He is stonewalling one of 15 senators that federal law establishes as the most important check on secret abuses by the CIA.
 
2013-07-25 08:50:31 AM

dittybopper: So in reality, I've never really been *ON* the cell phone grid. They want to follow my every move, they're going to have to do it the old fashioned way.


Placing a GPS tracker on your car?
 
2013-07-25 08:56:32 AM

BullBearMS: How legit do you think a secret court whose judges are composed entirely of Republicans hand selected by Justice Roberts without any Congressional oversight is?

It's rulings are secret.

The only lawyer who appears before it states the government's case with no opposing counsel representing the interests of the people.

The record shows that the secret court has only denied the Government in .03% of all cases before it. EVAR.

Doesn't sound legit.

Or do you think the Republicans should be allowed to trash the Constitution in secret without oversight from any elected official?


Interesting:  You went from a "Obama is trashing the checks and balances of the government to spy on you" to "Evil Republicans judges are spying on you" argument.   I'll take that as a concession that your original point was weak.

There is room to talk about whether or not the FISA court provides ample assurance of individual rights.  But can we agree that the simple fact that it exists is better than the alternative?  At least the Administration needs to come up with a justification for their actions, and has to report to a group that will block them if they find the justifications weak.

A high approval rate doesn't necessarily mean that the FISA court is a rubber stamp--The (small number of) rejections effectively prove that it isn't, and the attorneys who apply for the warrants know what will likely be approved and therefore are probably going to write applications that stand a high chance of approval.
 
2013-07-25 08:58:20 AM

BullBearMS: Skleenar: Bush said outright that the Judicial branch couldn't review his programs.

Obama has also said the the Judicial Branch couldn't review both his programs and Bush's programs.

Friday afternoon, the Obama DOJ filed the government's Weeners to EFF's lawsuit (.pdf), the first of its kind to seek damages against government officials under FISA, the Wiretap Act and other statutes, arising out of Bush's NSA program. But the Obama DOJ demanded dismissal of the entire lawsuit based on (1) its Bush-mimicking claim that the "state secrets" privilege bars any lawsuits against the Bush administration for illegal spying, and (2) a brand new "sovereign immunity" claim of breathtaking scope - never before advanced even by the Bush administration - that the Patriot Act bars any lawsuits of any kind for illegal government surveillance unless there is "willful disclosure" of the illegally intercepted communications.

In other words, beyond even the outrageously broad "state secrets" privilege invented by the Bush administration and now embraced fully by the Obama administration, the Obama DOJ has now invented a brand new claim of government immunity, one which literally asserts that the U.S. Government is free to intercept all of your communications (calls, emails and the like) and - even if what they're doing is blatantly illegal and they know it's illegal - you are barred from suing them unless they "willfully disclose" to the public what they have learned.

Just as he has claimed that the Senate Intelligence Committee, which was created to have oversight on the CIA, was not allowed to know what secret law he felt allowed him to order the murder of American citizens without due process.

Senator Ron Wyden, an Oregon Democrat, has sent an extraordinary letter to top White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan, President Obama's choice to lead the CIA. The letter poses questions about executive power, like "How much evidence does the President need to determine that a ...


Neither of those points are claiming that the Judicial branch doesn't have oversight.  Which was your original claim.
 
2013-07-25 08:59:29 AM

dittybopper: The head of the NSA under Obama testified to Congress that the NSA doesn't collect the metadata from everyone in the US. This was proven to be a lie by the documents that Edward Snowden leaked.


While interesting and significant, that isn't really what BullBearMS and I were discussing.
 
2013-07-25 09:00:46 AM

Skleenar: Neither of those points are claiming that the Judicial branch doesn't have oversight.


Politics Tab Obama shill denies reality!

Film at eleven.
 
2013-07-25 09:04:39 AM

Skleenar: I'll take that as a concession that your original point was weak.


Politics Tab Obama shill declares that it's OK for Obama to trash the Constitution, because FISA Republicans!
 
2013-07-25 09:11:19 AM
 
2013-07-25 09:19:12 AM

dustman81: dittybopper: So in reality, I've never really been *ON* the cell phone grid. They want to follow my every move, they're going to have to do it the old fashioned way.

Placing a GPS tracker on your car?


Using speeding and light cameras to process your license plate?
 
2013-07-25 09:23:10 AM

BullBearMS: Skleenar: Neither of those points are claiming that the Judicial branch doesn't have oversight.

Politics Tab Obama shill denies reality!

Film at eleven.


No, I simply read what you quoted, and noted that it did not make a claim that the Obama administration is denying Judicial oversight of domestic spying.  It's really pretty simple.

You are certainly spending a lot of time trying to conflate issues, and in a way that consistently seems calculated to try peel away liberal-leaning readers from supporting Obama.

It seems to me you are less concerned about the actual issues here than to simply drive a partisan agenda.

strange.  We rarely see that here.
 
2013-07-25 09:31:32 AM

Skleenar: You are certainly spending a lot of time trying to conflate issues, and in a way that consistently seems calculated to try peel away liberal-leaning readers from supporting Obama.


dl.dropboxusercontent.com

Could you be a more obvious Obama shill of you tried?
 
2013-07-25 10:19:53 AM

dustman81: dittybopper: So in reality, I've never really been *ON* the cell phone grid. They want to follow my every move, they're going to have to do it the old fashioned way.

Placing a GPS tracker on your car?


Where I can find and remove it if I want?  Sure.  Hell, if I'm paranoid enough, they won't be able to do it without me knowing about.  In fact, because of the amount of relatively sensitive radio equipment in my car, I'd almost certainly start hearing the 'pings' bleed through my receivers if they used a real-time device.   If they used a non-transmitting recording device that they have to retrieve in order to read, well, I can *STILL* find it, and either foil it*, or drive somewhere and just toss it.

Plus, the police can only do that for a limited time without a warrant, unlike the NSA program, which can keep records of your movements for years.

Keeping a cell phone with you just makes it a lot easier for them.  Let's say you come under suspicion of aggravated mopery in the first degree.  If you have your cell phone with you all the time, really all the local police have to do is subpoena the phone company records in order to find out if you were in the area when the crime happened.  They might not even have to do that:  Some companies just go ahead and give them the information for a fee when requested.

Placing a tracker on your vehicle, on the other hand, doesn't tell them anything about where you were in the past.  It just tells them where you went starting the moment they attached it.

That's just for local law enforcement, though:  The NSA is collecting this data on a vast, unprecedented scale.

*Literally wrapping it in aluminum foil:  Wrapping it in foil would prevent the receiver from 'seeing' any GPS satellites, so it wouldn't be able to collect any position information.  Essentially, they'd get nothing.
 
2013-07-25 10:20:29 AM

fark'emfeed'emfish: dustman81: dittybopper: So in reality, I've never really been *ON* the cell phone grid. They want to follow my every move, they're going to have to do it the old fashioned way.

Placing a GPS tracker on your car?

Using speeding and light cameras to process your license plate?


Most places don't have them.  Yet.
 
2013-07-25 10:53:39 AM

BullBearMS: Could you be a more obvious Obama shill of you tried?


You know, when someone points out a factual error you make, you can:

A) Man up and admit you were in error,

or

C) Launch into personal attacks and name-calling.
 
2013-07-25 10:54:56 AM

Hollie Maea: The government is way too busy to pay any attention to where you are going.

Holy shiat! Mr. Thinks-he's-way-more-important-than-he-is went to the grocery store again!  If you are managing to get on anyone's radar, you are doing some pretty hardcore shiat.  Just think of the people you are competing with for the Government's attention.

And no, just because you are maintaining a blog about gun rights doesn't mean the government gives a shiat about you.


ya better just ignore it, i'm sure it's fine.

/is it dark with you head THAT far up there?
 
2013-07-25 10:56:14 AM

dittybopper: *Literally wrapping it in aluminum foil: Wrapping it in foil would prevent the receiver from 'seeing' any GPS satellites, so it wouldn't be able to collect any position information. Essentially, they'd get nothing.


[itsaconspiracy.jpg]

/obligatory.  No offense intended, but it's in the FARK EULA that someone has to make reference to this image macro when aluminum foil is mentioned.
 
2013-07-25 11:09:37 AM

Skleenar: You know, when someone points out a factual error


The only thing you've pointed out is that you are an incredibly butthurt Obama shill and terribly concerned that people might hold him responsible for his actions.
 
2013-07-25 11:47:10 AM

BullBearMS: Skleenar: You know, when someone points out a factual error

The only thing you've pointed out is that you are an incredibly butthurt Obama shill and terribly concerned that people might hold him responsible for his actions.


Again with the names. You really are making a strong factual case here, and are not at all undercutting your own point by character self-assassination.
 
2013-07-25 11:53:55 AM

Skleenar: BullBearMS: Skleenar: You know, when someone points out a factual error

The only thing you've pointed out is that you are an incredibly butthurt Obama shill and terribly concerned that people might hold him responsible for his actions.

Again with the names. You really are making a strong factual case here, and are not at all undercutting your own point by character self-assassination.


Go have an internet slap fight with somebody else, Obama shill.

Plonk.
 
2013-07-25 12:46:24 PM

GrymReeper: I know this is going to wrankle a few folks. What's driving all this consternation? Is it paranoia, or an inflated sense of self-importance? If you're of interest to anyone, and I mean anyone, they can find you; with or without an electronic communications device in your pocket.


It's not about finding or locating you, it's about tracking you. It's especially about them not caring who you were until today and being able to see where you have been 24/7 for the past several years and who you may have been associating with and who they associate with and where they have been.

Now that might be great if they only used it for legitimate persons of interest where the privacy and legal/Constitutional rights of all individuals (guilty and innocent alike) were respected and protected by the rule of law, but the sad reality is that such power is abused repeatedly and no real guarantees of limiting such abuse can ever be put in place.

You might not care, but the innocent guy caught in their web sure will. Won't happen? There aren't corrupt and/or incompetent prosecutors, judges, law enforcement officers, clerks and government employees? There have never been innocent people convicted of crimes or put to death?

Would those "causalities" be acceptable if it were you or one of your loved ones?

On the other hand, what if all the rules were followed and all those rights respected and a bad guy harmed you or a family member because he wasn't detected as efficiently as technology allows and those "rights"  and "rules" kept law enforcement from stopping him? Wouldn't a shortcut or two been OK?
 
2013-07-25 01:20:19 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: So if I'm not doing anything wrong, why do I need to worry?


You are doing something wrong, and if you are not now, you will be soon.
 
2013-07-25 01:24:11 PM

Hermione_Granger: Is there anyone who doesn't know that the first thing you do is ditch your cell phone and don't even think about calling any of your contacts? Seriously.


Or you go to the nearest truck stop and duct tape your cell phone to the undercarriage of an out-of-town 18 Wheeler.  Track me now b*tches.
 
2013-07-25 02:05:45 PM
So what number do I call to get them to help me find it?

/no really, I wouldn't be as pissed about this if they actually provided that as a civil service...a sort of reach-around.
//you know... like how governments are supposed to....
 
2013-07-25 02:12:29 PM

Skleenar: dittybopper: *Literally wrapping it in aluminum foil: Wrapping it in foil would prevent the receiver from 'seeing' any GPS satellites, so it wouldn't be able to collect any position information. Essentially, they'd get nothing.

[itsaconspiracy.jpg]

/obligatory.  No offense intended, but it's in the FARK EULA that someone has to make reference to this image macro when aluminum foil is mentioned.


Wrapping a radio receiver and/or transmitter in foil will prevent it from doing what it's designed to do.

I submit that if you wrap your head in foil, your head is already failing at what it's designed to do.
 
2013-07-25 02:32:31 PM

dittybopper: Wrapping a radio receiver and/or transmitter in foil will prevent it from doing what it's designed to do.

I submit that if you wrap your head in foil, your head is already failing at what it's designed to do.


You know what ELSE I wrap in foil to prevent it from doing what it's designed to do?

Although, actually, that's kind of a moot point after I put my protective headware on.
 
2013-07-25 03:53:30 PM

dittybopper: Skleenar: dittybopper: *Literally wrapping it in aluminum foil: Wrapping it in foil would prevent the receiver from 'seeing' any GPS satellites, so it wouldn't be able to collect any position information. Essentially, they'd get nothing.

[itsaconspiracy.jpg]

/obligatory.  No offense intended, but it's in the FARK EULA that someone has to make reference to this image macro when aluminum foil is mentioned.

Wrapping a radio receiver and/or transmitter in foil will prevent it from doing what it's designed to do.

I submit that if you wrap your head in foil, your head is already failing at what it's designed to do.


annaweezy.files.wordpress.com

I think your brain has a thick candy shell.
Yo-yo-your brain has the shell on it.
Are you talking?
Shut up, Richard
 
2013-07-25 08:04:04 PM

boinkingbill: If you do not want to be tracked turn you cell phone off and take the battery out.


That makes deterring government tracking of civilians the civilian's responsibility.  Sure, that method might work, but it is inappropriate.  The government is overstepping it's bounds by imposing the practice in the first place.  For civilians to accept that burden is beyond slippery slope.
 
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