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(Opposing Views)   Thanks to a new website, women can finally learn how to buy a car all by themselves   (opposingviews.com ) divider line
    More: Dumbass, The Price Is Right  
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5147 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jul 2013 at 5:56 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-24 07:21:49 PM  
Never offer helpful suggestions to a women if you have a penis between your legs. The penis between your legs magically makes everything you say sexist.
 
2013-07-24 07:24:29 PM  

GreenSun: Damn this world, everybody needs apologies for insignificant matters. So what if the ad shows women being ignorant about the automobile industry? Unless you're a car lover, chances are you wouldn't know the different parts of a car and how they relate to each other anyway. You'll also have no idea about fair prices. The ad doesn't even say "all" women are like that, it just so happens that in the real world, a lot of women can' be bothered with learning about cars. So what if they don't know much about cars? What's the shame in that? Women not knowing much about cars is just the same about men not knowing about different make-up/mascara technology and fashion.

Different genders will always have different interests and there's nothing wrong with that. Why in the world would men give time trying to learn about make-up and beautifying devices? Why would women spend a lot of time learning about hardware and mechanics? This is reality, this is the culture we live in. Just because majority of women or men don't know about certain things doesn't mean it's something to be offended about. We have the right to NOT be experts or competent about certain subject matters, especially if we really don't have any interest in them.

The ad isn't attacking anyone in an attempt to shame or degrade them. It simply tries to provide services to what is currently our reality, which is most women aren't really interested in an in-depth study of the automotive industry and that's why they need guides who can help them not get screwed over. There is nothing wrong with that. Stop being so insecure. If anybody wants to degrade anybody, they wouldn't need to start a business just for that purpose. You can humiliate anyone without spending a dime.


You must be looking for Sensible Responses to Reasonable Things.  Third door down the hall on the right.
 
2013-07-24 07:33:59 PM  

zzrhardy: Never offer helpful suggestions to a women if you have a penis between your legs. The penis between your legs magically makes everything you say sexist.


yes, always put it in her first.
that solves everything.
 
2013-07-24 07:37:33 PM  
But all the commercials that portray men as helpless slobs unable to perform even basic household functions are a-okay.

Yeah, I'm a guy who will consult an automotively informed friend when I want to buy a car.   And my friends consult me when they want to put together a new computer or home network, or fix an old one.  Big deal.  Stop being offended.
 
2013-07-24 07:45:51 PM  
Pretty much all ads are predicated on the audience characterized as inept. The first step in selling you a fix is convincing you you are broken.

//said you twice
 
2013-07-24 07:47:11 PM  
shiat.  Buying cars is easy.  You look online, research, decide what you want, print it out, and take it to the dealer.  If they argue, try to pressure sale options, or say they can't do it, then tell them you'll take your business elsewhere.  It's amazing how they immediately have exactly what you're looking for when you threaten their commission.  I suppose if you're totally submissive in the whole exchange they'll walk all over you.  When we were shopping for our last car, the sales guys kept trying to sell my husband on how much power was in the engine, etc, etc.  I love the look on the sales guy's faces when my husband tells them, "Don't look at me; I'm the cook, she's the mechanic."  It really turns the table on the sales staff when you know more about cars than they do.
 
2013-07-24 07:48:53 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: But all the commercials that portray men as helpless slobs unable to perform even basic household functions are a-okay.

Yeah, I'm a guy who will consult an automotively informed friend when I want to buy a car.   And my friends consult me when they want to put together a new computer or home network, or fix an old one.  Big deal.  Stop being offended.


If a female is offended at what you say, ask them if it would be so offensive if a you were a female saying exactly the same thing. If they the answer is anything other than "Yes", call them sexist and walk away.

Their heads will literally explode with self righteous rage.
 
2013-07-24 07:54:36 PM  
ginormasource.com

Great! Now if there was only some way to teach them to drive the cars as well.
 
2013-07-24 07:57:02 PM  

spman: Buying a car is a PITA. When I bought my current Hyundai Elantra a few years ago, I had to go to three dealerships before I found one that was actually willing to sell me the car without a hassle.

The first two dealerships demanded a large down payment, but were not upfront about the fact that the car wasn't actually in stock, and they had no clue at all when they were getting anymore that weren't painted sky blue. Both in fact assured me that they'd be able to trade one of their ugly ass sky blue cars for a color you'd actually want, just by calling up another dealership. It took them both a month before they were finally up front with me about the fact that they weren't going to have any more in stock for a while, and it took another week after that for them to refund my down payment. I suspected that the problem was really that I wasn't financing through the dealership, and I refused all there stupid add ons, so they weren't in any real hurry to sell me anything.

Also, I don't understand how people claim to get these secret deals, or get dealerships to give you huge discounts. In my experience, dealerships would just as soon tell you to pound sand than negotiate on prices. Maybe Bob's used auto lot where they finance anyone, might negotiate, but I've never had any luck at a major dealership getting anything more than an air freshener and some floor mats tossed in for free.


1) If you want financing, get it from a credit union.  You should not be negotiating down payments or interest or ANYTHING other that purchase price with the dealer.
2) Every new car model has a minimum price it's going to sell for in your region.  For some cars/regions, this is far below invoice, for some cars/regions, it's far above MSRP.  In either case, this info is readily available on tons of free websites.  Find out what the best deal you can get it, then email all local dealerships asking for that deal.  When one bites, go in and pick the car up.  If nobody meets that deal, you were probably wrong that it was possible.  So instead go for the best deal offered, or don't go for any.  In any case, going to the dealer and haggling is not even necessary.

My CSB: 2012 Subaru Outback (with 0.00 miles) at 3% under invoice.  I watched a local dealer's inventory, and when it showed up, I emailed them my offer.  They responded with 5 minutes and said yes.  I drove in that night 30 minutes before the dealer closed to ensure I'd be in and out as fast as possible.  Painless. :-)
 
2013-07-24 07:57:31 PM  
How to buy a car:

Go during the last three days of the month. Pick the car you want. Ask them to give you the best deal they can.

Say "that's not good enough."

Repeat this phrase to every offer they make.

Be prepared to walk out and have them call you to come back.

When they get to free oil changes and car washes, they're done. Buy the car.

Be prepared for this to take 4 hours.
 
2013-07-24 07:59:44 PM  
I just bought a 2012 Nissan Xterr with cash. The dealer tried to tell me that they have to match internet prices, so there wasn't much room to haggle. Started walking out with an offer 5k less than the sticker price. They stopped me and took the deal.

All I can say is DO NOT be afraid to haggle. They will try and tell you that they are a "No Haggle" place.
 
2013-07-24 08:00:11 PM  
The last new car transaction (March of this year) went like this:  I test drove the car I wanted and then went to all the local dealerships and collected cards.  I then emailed all the sales people with what I was willing to pay.  I had the first one that agreed with my offer email me the paperwork and I emailed it back.  I only went back to the dealership to pick up the car and sign a few things in person.
 
2013-07-24 08:05:47 PM  
Go in pre-approved. Research the models and packages before you arrive, as well as the pricing so u know just how low you make the dealer go. Find the car you want on the lot (at least $10000 higher than what you Are approved for).Tell them u want that car for this much (or however much monthly, whatever) and that they have 2 hours to get the papers signed and the vehicle ready for drive out. Walk if they aren't able to do it. And I always add that I couldn't care less about how they make it work, just do it. I have walked out as they were bringing me the papers, cuz after about 45 minutes I am on the phone with the next dealership telling them what I want and that I want it today. And the times I have walked the next dealership in line was able to do the deal and I went back to the one I walked out of just to let them know they really did screw up and miss a sale. My husband hates it cuz he says it is no fun to go with me--he likes the haggling 😒
 
2013-07-24 08:16:48 PM  

The111: My CSB: 2012 Subaru Outback (with 0.00 miles) at 3% under invoice.  I watched a local dealer's inventory, and when it showed up, I emailed them my offer.  They responded with 5 minutes and said yes.  I drove in that night 30 minutes before the dealer closed to ensure I'd be in and out as fast as possible.  Painless. :-)


That's all well and good, but all the dealerships here would intentionally misrepresent their inventory on their website, just to get you into the lot. When I was looking for my car, I could literally see the salesman's interest in me vanish immediately once they realized that I wasn't going to go for any of their add ons, and wasn't going to be a profitable customer. One thing I learned, don't let the salesman know how much you are planning to pay out of pocket, once they found out I was paying 90% on my own, they just about showed me the door.
 
2013-07-24 08:16:57 PM  

miss diminutive: Pffft. I'm perfectly capable of discerning between the accelerometer and the deceleratrix.


You're adopted for that comment.
/Don't worry - you won't have to keep kosher or go to family reunions.
 
2013-07-24 08:37:11 PM  
EnglishMajor:

.   Each time the sales person tried to make me wait in their cubicle, I walked out after 7  minutes (I just like the number).

My strategy: I start singing. Loudly, with the piped in music, or with my earphones in. I ask the sales dudes to dance with me in the middle of the showroom, while my salesperson is "off in the back checking with the manager" etc. I am a large, older woman. You do NOT want me singing and dancing in your showroom. They always seem to find time to hurry up my paperwork and not make me wait.
 
2013-07-24 08:45:42 PM  
USAA has an auto buying service.  Has anyone tried that?  Also, how does truecar work?  Has anyone tried that?

/wasn't prepared when I bought my first brand new car.
//it was one of those one price shops, so they wouldn't deal
///they had the exact car we wanted though (and no one else in Denver did), so...
 
2013-07-24 08:54:18 PM  
Fleet, people.
Own a business and buy through fleet.
No BS. No time-wasting. No farking cubicles. No nonsense.
 
2013-07-24 08:58:06 PM  
Buying a computer as a woman is just as bad.
 
2013-07-24 09:05:52 PM  
Good lord.  I'm glad we bought our last car (my first, wife's second) with cash.  They still tried to sell us the extended service warranty, which being not totally savvy we had to talk over in private before saying no.  Our reasoning being that if it actually saved us money, they wouldn't want to sell it to us.  Vehicle still has years of original warranty anyway.  Some of these stories are hair-raising, I mean, holding your driver's license so you can't leave?  I think I'd just call the cops.
 
2013-07-24 09:06:48 PM  
I typically lease as it ended up being cheaper than constantly fixing up pieces of crap old cars or buying a car, paying for it for 6 years and trading it in in 6.5 years which is the typical American method. I mathed it out. I typically lease inexpensive cars, it only works because we don't drive a whole lot, though we do have enough miles to drive a 1.1k mile drive to our hometown once a year if we want.

Well, as a woman, I managed to get a dealership to offer me a brand new Mazda 6 at $139/mo for a 3 year lease (normally runs about $200-$210). I hemmed and hawed on the deal and, said if they met my price we'd talk, but there were several vehicles I was looking at to lease all in the price range but I wasn't in a rush. Eventually they called me up and offered me the above price, which I took.

That's actually basically my negotiating technique, make it clear that I wasn't sold on their car, even though I already had something in mind make/model wise on their lot to check out. Typically I research ahead of time lots of factors like leg room, trunk space, fuel economy and current lease special comparison in a spreadsheet. I also ask for manual transmissions (which are funner to drive and cheaper anyway).

If you can't drive a stick, but you know they don't have it in stock, you could still make a fuss about that and try to get them to knock off the price of a stick.
 
2013-07-24 09:15:12 PM  

StrandedInAZ: I got so sick of the salesperson running back and forth to the "manager" to negotiate I just left. They called as I was driving home, and I told them I had no time to play their stupid games. I just wanted to buy a car at the price we'd already agreed upon during our internet negotiations before I even got there.

/ain't nobody got time for that


Really? You agreed on a price, then they try to run you around, fark them, I wouldn't have spent five minutes there, I would have called corporate on their asses (wouldn't have helped, but it would have made me feel better, anyway).

My last two cars, the price was agreed upon over the internet, I went in, signed the papers, and drove out.
 
2013-07-24 09:30:20 PM  
The deck is stacked in the dealer's favor (Ha! Mixed metaphor!), so I have trouble being offended by a service that gets around some of the games.

/Dealers do this several times a day, every day, to stay employed/housed/fed/wealthy
//I buy a car maybe once every 3 years
///Will admit they probably are better at it than I
 
2013-07-24 09:56:08 PM  
The article seemed to translate what the ad said as "all women want a man present when they buy a car".

But it's pretty hard to deny that there are women out there that do want a man present when they buy a car. The ad is designed to appeal to the sub-set of women that do want a man present.
 
2013-07-24 10:01:37 PM  
1976: My family moved from small town Kansas, which was much easier to deal with since everybody knew their banker, to suburbia Kansas City, where everybody knew where there bank was but that was it.  My mom was able to close the sale of our house in Smalltown, but had nothing to do with buying a new one in the suburbia area because she was a woman and what would her husband say???  We were friends with and good customers of the banker in Smalltown, but in the suburbs we were just another stat that said 'don't do anything a woman says, they don't know bidness'.  A bank official said basically "Look, honey, you don't know what your doing so have your husband come by..."

A bank VP stood in front of my mom and told her he couldn't help her with a mortgage, because "we don't do that for women" (I shiat you not, that was still the attitude in 1976).  She told him she had the name of several state and federal officials who would be interested in his prejudice (she really did), and that she was ready to call the president of the bank from where we had come from to explain things to him.  She made a couple of calls.  Within 20 minutes she had the paperwork ready for my Dad's signature and hers.  We moved in the next day.

But that was 1976, and we should all be ashamed that we let it get to be that late before we we saw women as equal to... oh, wait.   77 cents on the dollar?  Well, that's just good bidness sence!  fark them dames.
 
2013-07-24 10:14:21 PM  

Farkenhostile: Do people submit stories anymore or are they all auto greened by the partner sites? I've never had TF but i don't see what you could possibly be paying for.


For $5 bucks a month you get to see all the submitted headlines and the articles that you know should be greened in order to share in the fun or information. But for zero bucks you only get to see the greens that the admins batch process(1 maybe 2 or 3) every hour without even really looking at what they are doing. Hint; don't even try to submitt link during a football, baseball or basketball game. It will be ignored until the game is over.
 
2013-07-24 10:21:50 PM  

Farkenhostile: Do people submit stories anymore or are they all auto greened by the partner sites? I've never had TF but i don't see what you could possibly be paying for.


Oh, I forgot. You also get to read comments from the old time Farkers biatching about links that they don't think should have been submitted because they don't like them.
 
2013-07-24 10:37:33 PM  
Very late to the party, but the best deal I ever got on a used vehicle was negotiated during the last game of the world series that year. When I was poking around, test-driving, and inspecting vehicles earlier that day, I learned that most of the dealership employees where the car I wanted was were huge baseball fans. Hell, they had an office fantasy league and everything. It didn't take long to get the deal I wanted or do the paperwork. Best car buying experience ever.
 
2013-07-24 10:39:16 PM  

DownDaRiver: Farkenhostile: Do people submit stories anymore or are they all auto greened by the partner sites? I've never had TF but i don't see what you could possibly be paying for.

Oh, I forgot. You also get to read comments from the old time Farkers biatching about links that they don't think should have been submitted because they don't like them.


I had TF once, and you can also vote on the links submitted.  Interestingly you can't see who submitted them.  But you can talk them up in comments even if they go red.  I'm looking at you Actual Farking
 
2013-07-24 10:43:01 PM  

ski9600: DownDaRiver: Farkenhostile: Do people submit stories anymore or are they all auto greened by the partner sites? I've never had TF but i don't see what you could possibly be paying for.

Oh, I forgot. You also get to read comments from the old time Farkers biatching about links that they don't think should have been submitted because they don't like them.

I had TF once, and you can also vote on the links submitted.  Interestingly you can't see who submitted them.  But you can talk them up in comments even if they go red.  I'm looking at you Actual Farking


Oops, it was Evil Lincoln that got that thread going.  #7850894

/sorry Actual
 
2013-07-24 10:56:31 PM  

garumph: Russ1642: blatz514: Huh, I must be viewed as a girl then.  I brought my best friend and my boss along when I went car shopping in March.  Then the second time around I brought a girl.

/doesn't know shiat about cars
//does know when to put in winter air into the tires

Winter air? You've been scammed. LOL.

Totally! If you use spring or fall air you can run the same air all year and no screwing around paying premium price for winter and summer air.


I know you guys are joking but the Nitrogen in the tires scam is a huge one.  Who cares if the tire pressure changes a little bit with normal air in the tires when the temp gets colder/warmer.   The cost vs benefit is negligible.
 
2013-07-24 10:57:19 PM  

ski9600: ski9600: DownDaRiver: Farkenhostile: Do people submit stories anymore or are they all auto greened by the partner sites? I've never had TF but i don't see what you could possibly be paying for.

Oh, I forgot. You also get to read comments from the old time Farkers biatching about links that they don't think should have been submitted because they don't like them.

I had TF once, and you can also vote on the links submitted.  Interestingly you can't see who submitted them.  But you can talk them up in comments even if they go red.  I'm looking at you Actual Farking

Oops, it was Evil Lincoln that got that thread going.  #7850894

/sorry Act

ual

You a little bit missed the point. That thread came out of total far discussion which is a place where some of us shoot the sh*t, crack jokes, and make fun of each other responding to headlines that are more discussion topics than news stories. EviLincoln tried to get my joke thread greened for the sake of exposing our nonsense to the liters for the sake of chaos. We had fun.

I just gifted you tf for a month. Join in and see if you like it. Go into total fark and find the TF Discussion tab. That's where we goof off.
 
2013-07-24 10:59:08 PM  

ski9600: DownDaRiver: Farkenhostile: Do people submit stories anymore or are they all auto greened by the partner sites? I've never had TF but i don't see what you could possibly be paying for.

Oh, I forgot. You also get to read comments from the old time Farkers biatching about links that they don't think should have been submitted because they don't like them.

I had TF once, and you can also vote on the links submitted.  Interestingly you can't see who submitted them.  But you can talk them up in comments even if they go red.  I'm looking at you Actual Farking


You have TF now. Do you think you are using your Alt screen name?
 
2013-07-24 11:04:40 PM  

DownDaRiver: ski9600: DownDaRiver: Farkenhostile: Do people submit stories anymore or are they all auto greened by the partner sites? I've never had TF but i don't see what you could possibly be paying for.

Oh, I forgot. You also get to read comments from the old time Farkers biatching about links that they don't think should have been submitted because they don't like them.

I had TF once, and you can also vote on the links submitted.  Interestingly you can't see who submitted them.  But you can talk them up in comments even if they go red.  I'm looking at you Actual Farking

You have TF now. Do you think you are using your Alt screen name?


I just now gave it to him.
 
2013-07-24 11:16:10 PM  

Actual Farking: DownDaRiver: ski9600: DownDaRiver: Farkenhostile: Do people submit stories anymore or are they all auto greened by the partner sites? I've never had TF but i don't see what you could possibly be paying for.

Oh, I forgot. You also get to read comments from the old time Farkers biatching about links that they don't think should have been submitted because they don't like them.

I had TF once, and you can also vote on the links submitted.  Interestingly you can't see who submitted them.  But you can talk them up in comments even if they go red.  I'm looking at you Actual Farking

You have TF now. Do you think you are using your Alt screen name?

I just now gave it to him.


Seemed like a ligitimate question at the time.
 
2013-07-25 12:05:59 AM  
No, women don't *need* men around to do or buy anything, I suppose.  And, conversely...  But, um, is any of this "nyah nyah", like *going* anywhere?  Cause it looks like 4th grade, from here.
 
2013-07-25 12:25:11 AM  

bunner: No, women don't *need* men around to do or buy anything, I suppose.  And, conversely...  But, um, is any of this "nyah nyah", like *going* anywhere?  Cause it looks like 4th grade, from here.


www.blastr.com
 
2013-07-25 12:42:24 AM  

miss diminutive: Pffft. I'm perfectly capable of discerning between the accelerometer and the deceleratrix.


I snerted. I would buy you Total Fark  but you already got one...
 
2013-07-25 12:50:15 AM  
Why do so many people buy brand new cars?  I use a broker to get 3-yr. old cars in great condition at dealer auctions that are past the steep part of the depreciation curve.
 
2013-07-25 02:30:15 AM  

Aquapope: 1976: My family moved from small town Kansas, which was much easier to deal with since everybody knew their banker, to suburbia Kansas City, where everybody knew where there bank was but that was it.  My mom was able to close the sale of our house in Smalltown, but had nothing to do with buying a new one in the suburbia area because she was a woman and what would her husband say???  We were friends with and good customers of the banker in Smalltown, but in the suburbs we were just another stat that said 'don't do anything a woman says, they don't know bidness'.  A bank official said basically "Look, honey, you don't know what your doing so have your husband come by..."

A bank VP stood in front of my mom and told her he couldn't help her with a mortgage, because "we don't do that for women" (I shiat you not, that was still the attitude in 1976).  She told him she had the name of several state and federal officials who would be interested in his prejudice (she really did), and that she was ready to call the president of the bank from where we had come from to explain things to him.  She made a couple of calls.  Within 20 minutes she had the paperwork ready for my Dad's signature and hers.  We moved in the next day.

But that was 1976, and we should all be ashamed that we let it get to be that late before we we saw women as equal to... oh, wait.   77 cents on the dollar?  Well, that's just good bidness sence!  fark them dames.


That does add some perspective.  It's really just in our lifetimes that these ideas of equality has been considered normal, and only in first world countries, really.  For the previous hundred thousand years or so, men were the boss, and they still are, in most places around the world.

What if these new ideas of egalitarianism in the West isn't the obvious end goal of civilization and history, as we seem to believe, but rather just a blip?  How many years would it take to wipe out any gains made in equality for women, for homosexuals, for people of different races and faiths, considering it took hundreds of thousands of years to get here?

And remember, places like Syria and Iran used to be quite tolerant.
 
2013-07-25 03:31:46 AM  

miss diminutive: Pffft. I'm perfectly capable of discerning between the accelerometer and the deceleratrix.


Pfft...You don't even know the difference between a velocitator and an accelerometer.

;-)
 
2013-07-25 07:25:58 AM  

acohn: Why do so many people buy brand new cars?  I use a broker to get 3-yr. old cars in great condition at dealer auctions that are past the steep part of the depreciation curve.


Because I don't buy a car for resale value.

I buy a car I like and will drive until the wheels fall off. If I don't buy a 3 year-old car, I don't have to deal with whatever maintenance (or lack of) was done to it before I bought it, and I don't have to be concerned about it already having 40,000 miles on it. Fact is, I can afford to buy a car that is new, not that is in 'like new' condition, and that's what I'd rather have.
 
2013-07-25 08:56:34 AM  

acohn: Why do so many people buy brand new cars?  I use a broker to get 3-yr. old cars in great condition at dealer auctions that are past the steep part of the depreciation curve.


Because we don't like having to get rid of the body in the trunk.
 
2013-07-25 09:54:26 AM  

miss diminutive: Pffft. I'm perfectly capable of discerning between the accelerometer and the deceleratrix.


Of course but do you know if you need the upgraded jupitor joints or enhanced muffler bearings? what if there is an glass dome or gigantic tail fin option? You're like green right?
 
2013-07-25 11:48:45 AM  

Spanky McStupid: Vector R: It sounds like it might be handy, as women are generally terrible at negotiating due to be trained from birth to be "nice." I tend to bring a guy along and keep quiet, and then I get a good deal, generally.

Sometimes, what you wear can make a world of difference in negotiations.


This is, however, the position most dealers would like to get you in, even if you don't look like her.
 
2013-07-25 02:35:02 PM  

sendtodave: Aquapope: 1976: My family moved from small town Kansas, which was much easier to deal with since everybody knew their banker, to suburbia Kansas City, where everybody knew where there bank was but that was it.  My mom was able to close the sale of our house in Smalltown, but had nothing to do with buying a new one in the suburbia area because she was a woman and what would her husband say???  We were friends with and good customers of the banker in Smalltown, but in the suburbs we were just another stat that said 'don't do anything a woman says, they don't know bidness'.  A bank official said basically "Look, honey, you don't know what your doing so have your husband come by..."

A bank VP stood in front of my mom and told her he couldn't help her with a mortgage, because "we don't do that for women" (I shiat you not, that was still the attitude in 1976).  She told him she had the name of several state and federal officials who would be interested in his prejudice (she really did), and that she was ready to call the president of the bank from where we had come from to explain things to him.  She made a couple of calls.  Within 20 minutes she had the paperwork ready for my Dad's signature and hers.  We moved in the next day.

But that was 1976, and we should all be ashamed that we let it get to be that late before we we saw women as equal to... oh, wait.   77 cents on the dollar?  Well, that's just good bidness sence!  fark them dames.

That does add some perspective.  It's really just in our lifetimes that these ideas of equality has been considered normal, and only in first world countries, really.  For the previous hundred thousand years or so, men were the boss, and they still are, in most places around the world.

What if these new ideas of egalitarianism in the West isn't the obvious end goal of civilization and history, as we seem to believe, but rather just a blip?  How many years would it take to wipe out any gains made in equality for women, for homosexuals ...


From our perspective, rights for all are the end game.  That doesn't go for places where religion is the driving social force - religion almost always makes "us" and "them" groups, and it's easy to deny right to "them" 'cuz they ain't "us".  And in some of those religious places women don't count as either us or them because they're not even counted as people.  My biggest wish is that we get off of oil dependence just so we can say "fark you, you backward assholes" to Saudi Arabia.
 
2013-07-25 03:28:16 PM  
Hello Farkers,

Rant incoming. Inside baseball rant. Apologies in advance.

Long time reader, first time poster. I work in the industry as the internet sales director for a mid-sized auto group. First, please allow me to apologize on behalf of all car salespeople everywhere. We are subhumans who, lacking souls of our own, prey on the souls of those who venture into our den. It is our nature, and we cannot help it.

Here's the deal with TrueCar. TrueCar is a company that, in addition to offering a direct web service, partners with numerous other organizations, including AAA, BofA, Consumer Reports, USAA, AmEx, and several auto insurance companies. So, if you're looking at the USAA buying service, you're looking at TrueCar.

Depending on the state you live in, TrueCar will either give you a straight price on a vehicle that participating dealers will generally honor, or a "target price" that they believe constitutes a good deal. Either way, the price you see excludes taxes, DMV tags, and the dealer's processing/documentation fee. The price INCLUDES cash incentives from the manufacturer, when available. This is all in the fine print, but it bears mentioning.

TrueCar is, essentially, a parasitic organization. A dealer's "TrueCar" price is no better than the prices they will offer via e-quote, but TrueCar wants to convince you that they are the best way to get a good deal.

They advertize heavily, leverage partnerships, and charge dealerships obscene amounts of money in order to receive TrueCar "leads." I'm not going to say how huge, but you could buy plenty of cars with the amount of money that a dealer pays TrueCar in order to participate.

If you don't pay TrueCar as a dealer, then you don't appear as an available dealer to customers in your area. Thus, you lose customers, and the vehicle manufacturer starts having special meetings with you about "sales efficiency."

Because of these huge fees, and because of the nature of the TrueCar service almost invariably means sales at a fiscal loss to a dealership (I mean this literally, not figuratively; these will be marked with red ink in the ledger), dealers are having to become more creative in order to stay viable.

What does this mean? It means games. It means, "I'm sorry, but that car was just sold, so let me show you one that's just a little more expensive." It means, "I know that Kelly Blue Book says your trade is worth $10,000, but we can only offer you $7,500." It means, "Your price did not include destination and freight or [miscellaneous huge fee]." It means, "Thank you for getting your oil changed with us. That will be $99.95."

If you don't like the process of buying a car, it's because you don't like the economy that we have demanded. If we expect a business to habitually sell to us at a loss, we can expect that business to try sneaky ways of staying profitable, and if price is all that matters to us, we are going to continue to drive the industry in that direction.

As a counter-example, our auto group sells Scion vehicles. Scion has a unique approach to the sale that they call Pure Price. Essentially, no haggling. The MSRP is what the customer pays, period. The dealer usually makes between $500-$800 on the sale, and the customer gets a decent vehicle with no games.

Scion doesn't sell very well because customers don't want a reliable, inexpensive vehicle at a fair price; they want a GREAT DEAL.

On a more personal note, I will say that I've seen totally amoral salespeople gloat about a customer who paid too much for a car they didn't want. Likewise, I've also seen salespeople who care deeply for their customers, salespeople who work tirelessly before, during, and after the sale in order to ensure that their customer is completely satisfied. There are good and bad people in this business. The problem is that the auto retail industry necessarily must encourage bad behavior in order to keep the doors open. Customers, dealers, and parasitic organizations like TrueCar are all partially responsible.

Oh... and speaking to the ad, we sometimes call the "friend" who comes to the lot a "third base coach," or more snarkily, the "maven." Doesn't really matter if it's a man or a woman; anyone who has been in sales knows that it's harder to close two people on a deal than one person.

As far as advice for negotiating price? It's simple, and it's already been given a few times so far. Set up a fake email account, contact the 3 closest dealers via email, tell them that you are shopping several dealers and makes, and ask them for a price breakdown, including any incentives they are assuming. Ask that their quote culminate in their best "out the door" price on the vehicle you want (make sure you know what you want, and ask for a copy of the window sticker or a spec sheet.) Tell the dealer whether you intend to pay cash or finance, as the incentives sometimes change depending. If you get the best price from a distant dealership, consider giving your local dealer the opportunity to match the deal - in writing. You'll save yourself some gas and potentially a headache. You'll also have a local ally in the event that you need help with your vehicle a few years down the line.

Couple other notes:

Impatient about waiting? I hear you. But keep in mind that the salesperson is generally not having you wait intentionally. They don't want you to get angry and leave. There are other customers, other salespersons, and often only one manager who is available to "desk the deal," meaning make you an offer. If your intention is to walk in off the street and begin negotiating while the dealership is busy, it's going to take a while. You're talking about a purchase that's going to be between $15,000 and $70,000 in most cases. Real estate transactions sometimes drag on for months. Why wouldn't a vehicle negotiation take a couple hours?

Good credit generally means that you don't need a down payment in order to affect eligibility for a loan or rate (exceptions include some college grad programs and first-time buyer programs.) If you are being told that you need a down payment, it's because the banks will not finance you without a down payment. Don't be offended; if the dealer could sell to you without a down payment, they would.

Women are some of the more terrifying negotiators I've run into.

USAA customers: I love you. You are very straightforward, very conscientious, very honest, and overall a joy to work with. While on the whole I dislike TrueCar, USAA customers alone almost make up for it.

***

By the way, I have a request. I cannot tell you how many times I've reached out to a customer who came to us through the internet, only to hear by way of preamble, "Boy, I really hate car salesmen."

You know what? That actually hurts. I admit that we are hardly heroes, but we don't really deserve the vitriol we get, and you might be surprised at how challenging it can be to arrange and transport the crazy permutations of vehicle colors, packages, drivetrain configurations, options, and accessories in a way that satisfies the customer's needs while accommodating their budget and/or credit worthiness, all while establishing a sense of trust and value. You might also be surprised at how little a salesperson makes per sale, depending on the brand and dealership.

There are plenty of professions that provide absolutely nothing beneficial for society. There are shell companies that do absolutely nothing but levy patent lawsuits in order to make a buck at the cost of our economy as a whole. There are biochemical engineers who sleep easy at night after a hard day of weaponizing viruses.

So I guess what I'm asking is that you give your next salesperson the opportunity to show you that they are more than just a salesperson. If they turn out to be sleazy or lazy, fark 'em, but again, you might be surprised.
 
2013-07-25 08:59:35 PM  

tom baker's scarf: miss diminutive: Pffft. I'm perfectly capable of discerning between the accelerometer and the deceleratrix.

Of course but do you know if you need the upgraded jupitor joints or enhanced muffler bearings? what if there is an glass dome or gigantic tail fin option? You're like green right?


Don't forget the blinker fluid, that's extra too.
 
2013-07-25 11:04:52 PM  
The worst deal I ever got on a car was when I bought my first new one and my dad insisted that he go with me "to make sure I didn't get ripped off." I ended up buying a bare bones Ford Focus for $15,000 in 2001. No options whatsoever. The thing had AC, and that was about it. No power windows or locks... Nothing. If you're unsure as to how bad a deal I got on that car, Google it. At least I got 0% financing for the entirety of the loan. I sold said car (still in perfect working order with low mileage) a couple years ago for a few thousand, so at least it held up well even at 10 years old.

Last year, I went with my husband to purchase a Ford Fusion, and I was the one doing the haggling the entire time. The Ford dealer attempted to show me "math" where the Fusion was a better deal than the Nissan Altima I'd driven earlier than day. Unfortunately for him, I don't suck at math, and I know the difference between adding up monthly payments of "Car A" and dividing the price of "Car B" without interest and fees that will be added later and then adding those back together. I did the math myself and showed him on paper the price of each car plus the interest over five years. He continued to attempt to do the math differently for each car a total of three times before I explained that not only was his car more expensive but that it had fewer options and that he was an idiot for continuing to try to scam me. (If the dealer keeps asking what monthly payment you want and avoids giving you the total cost, it's a bad sign.) I walked out and bought the Nissan.

That Nissan dealership is now my go-to dealership for my husband's new car, which we'll buy in the next year or two. They gave me 0% financing and the price I was looking for. I would have gotten a better options package, but I didn't want the sun roof that wasn't optional at the time, so I just decided I was fine with what I had and spent $100 on a nice aftermarket stereo. How much do I love the car four years later? Well, it has low mileage and the dealership keeps offering to buy it back for way more than we owe on it. I've turned them down every single time.
 
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