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(Salon)   Why is it a city like Detroit can hide behind Chapter 9 Bankruptcy protection, but not the 37 million Americans drowning in student loan debt?   (salon.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Americans, Detroit, collective investment scheme, sticker price  
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5415 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jul 2013 at 9:46 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



225 Comments   (+0 »)
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2013-07-24 09:46:55 AM  
Because fark you, that's why.
 
2013-07-24 09:47:39 AM  
because indentured servitude is the new hotness
 
2013-07-24 09:47:41 AM  

tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.

 
2013-07-24 09:48:00 AM  
Because Detroit had assets when it established its line of credit?
 
2013-07-24 09:49:16 AM  
Let me sum it up: Because Bush Obama Benghazi Snowden Wikileaks Fox News.

That's why.

Oh, and also Obamacare Welfare and Bootstraps.
 
2013-07-24 09:49:28 AM  
Is the answer Socialism?
 
2013-07-24 09:50:28 AM  
Because bankruptcy is an extreme last resort and most people would rather do everything they possibly could before declaring bankruptcy over student debt?
 
2013-07-24 09:50:32 AM  
I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?
 
2013-07-24 09:50:42 AM  
Its who you owe it to. The guy with the gun government always gets theirs.
 
2013-07-24 09:50:45 AM  

LaurenAguilera: Let me sum it up: Because Bush Obama Benghazi Snowden Wikileaks Fox News.

That's why.

Oh, and also Obamacare Welfare and Bootstraps.


Also Zimmerman
 
2013-07-24 09:50:48 AM  
It would be a moot point if secondary education was affordable.
 
2013-07-24 09:51:10 AM  
Because Detroit knows how to change the brakes on a 15 year old Ford Escort?

/nothing
 
2013-07-24 09:52:16 AM  

bopis: Its who you owe it to. The guy with the gun government always gets theirs.


I thought about striking out "government" and putting in "bank" but I'm in a cynical mood this morning and figure that would just be replacing synonyms.
 
2013-07-24 09:52:19 AM  

dukeblue219: That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


I guess I should have RTFA first because it covers what I just said. Oh well.
 
2013-07-24 09:53:31 AM  
Sure.   If you want to pay 8% interest on your loan.

Better be careful what you ask for....
 
2013-07-24 09:53:52 AM  
Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in.  Take to the farking streets.  Make them hear you.  You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.
 
2013-07-24 09:55:45 AM  
Student loans are a giant scam.  Some of them have 10% origination fees, then charge you interest on top of this so you are paying interest on 110% of what you took out immediately.  Compounding this over four years, you'll accrue over 43% of the value of the original 5k in interest.  This part is usually left off of the financial aid paperwork or put in super small print.  Also, given the state of mathematics education in this country, compounding interest is probably above the skill set of the average college student.
 
2013-07-24 09:56:03 AM  
You owe it to the government. The government always gets its money.
 
2013-07-24 09:56:07 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


That was the logic when they started introducing the five and seven year waiting periods before you could file for dischargement of your student loans under bankruptcy protection, yes.

I really don't see where banks would have any incentive at all to make loans to people who have no income and no assets if those same people could immediately just walk away from the loan the day they get the degree with the only penalty being seven years of bad credit. They'd be completely out from under it before they turned 30.

/Borrowed money for college.
//Paid back every cent.
 
2013-07-24 09:57:42 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


Yes. That is the point. The federal government sets annual and aggregate limits on the amount of money you can borrow from them. Sallie Mae does not.

So, if you could discharge your Sallie Mae loan in bankruptcy, they would think twice before offering a $40,000 loan each year to a kid studying "undecided".
 
2013-07-24 09:57:47 AM  
www.bvvp.com
 
2013-07-24 09:57:54 AM  

dukeblue219: dukeblue219: That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?

I guess I should have RTFA first because it covers what I just said. Oh well.


Reality check:  This is *Fark*.  You're posting a response to the headline for an article without reading it.

Would you post internet reviews of cars based on the font used to write the text surrounding one picture of the car in an article online if the picture was photoshopped to look like it was in a funny location?

Seriously, re-evaluate your logic process here.  RTFABR (before reply/response).
 
2013-07-24 09:58:19 AM  
Earn it before you burn it.
Try that out for a while.
 
2013-07-24 09:58:29 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


Okay, so what you're saying is that we'd go back to responsible loan practices instead of just writing blank checks for ever-escalating higher education and maybe actual capitalist market forces might start to exert a bit of control over this part of our society infrastructure?

You make it sound like such a bad thing.
 
2013-07-24 09:58:47 AM  
I filed bankruptcy a few years ago specifically so I could handle my student loans. Sucks but I had to do it.   I knew in my last year of grad school that I was sinking in debt and would not be able to handle all of it once my deferment ended.  If I had a choice I would have discharged my loans but kept the credit cards.
 
2013-07-24 09:59:13 AM  
The answer is simple:

- subsidize tuition in order to reduce the frequency/need for student loans
- allow student loans to be absolved through bankruptcy
- provide other means/ways/mechanisms to promote an educated population

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:

- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.
- require that you maintain a certain GPA, or you revert back to the "old" system

What this will do is:
- ease the way for people who actually plan for their future, and are serious about college
- dissuade people from going to college for the sake of going to college
- dissuade people from racking up massive amounts of debt in order to obtain an obviously useless (in terms of ROI) degree

e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime
 
2013-07-24 09:59:45 AM  

buckets_of_fun: LaurenAguilera: Let me sum it up: Because Bush Obama Benghazi Snowden Wikileaks Fox News.

That's why.

Oh, and also Obamacare Welfare and Bootstraps.

Also Zimmerman


I knew I forgot one.
 
2013-07-24 09:59:51 AM  

Kome: bopis: Its who you owe it to. The guy with the gun government always gets theirs.

I thought about striking out "government" and putting in "bank" but I'm in a cynical mood this morning and figure that would just be replacing synonyms.


Synonymous

You should have expected us

I was going to change all the words with synonyms but I then stopped caring.
 
2013-07-24 10:00:36 AM  
Because Congress, that's why.

Based on zero reliable evidence and a whole lot of hearsay about Doctors declaring bankruptcy during their residency to get rid of med school debt and then walking into 6-figure jobs, Congress decided to monkey with bankruptcy laws.

Maybe - just maybe - the proper solution to this isn't to force (and permit) huge loans to students with little ability to repay them, but to actually have government fund higher education appropriately, and exercise some control on the stupidly high cost of college.
 
2013-07-24 10:00:55 AM  

outdoorsman_jph: Student loans are a giant scam.  Some of them have 10% origination fees, then charge you interest on top of this so you are paying interest on 110% of what you took out immediately.  Compounding this over four years, you'll accrue over 43% of the value of the original 5k in interest.  This part is usually left off of the financial aid paperwork or put in super small print.  Also, given the state of mathematics education in this country, compounding interest is probably above the skill set of the average college student.


That's no longer the case. I don't know of any REPUTABLE student loans that have a 10% origination fee. If any such loans existed, they haven't since 2009.

The highest origination fee that I know of is the Federal PLUS loan, with it's brand new 4.024% origination fee. It went up from 4% even the last time  Congress made good on it's promise to hold it's breath until the president stopped being so black.
 
2013-07-24 10:01:52 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


Yes, but the solution isn't simply to make loans non-dischargeable, or else there would be no such thing as bankruptcy for any type of loan (which may or may not be the wet dream of every bank CEO, I don't know). Part of the solution is to cap the interest of the loans to a reasonable level, so that people might actually be able to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time without their debt spiraling out of control. Part of the solution is to stem the tide of rising tuition costs requiring more students to take out more and higher loans in order to afford to be able to get a degree, eventually leading to the cost of continuing education going down, not up. Part of the solution is for the vaunted and sacred job-creators to actually create some f*cking jobs so people graduating can find employment commensurate to their academic and technical knowledge/skills that pays a living wage. Student loan debt is a problem that needs to be tackled from multiple angles, most of which would require an immediate short-term cost but a huge long-term benefit to society. As such, it probably won't ever be solved.
 
2013-07-24 10:02:59 AM  

tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.


Done in potato.
 
2013-07-24 10:03:19 AM  

raerae1980: I filed bankruptcy a few years ago specifically so I could handle my student loans. Sucks but I had to do it.   I knew in my last year of grad school that I was sinking in debt and would not be able to handle all of it once my deferment ended.  If I had a choice I would have discharged my loans but kept the credit cards.


Did you pay to go to graduate school cause it sounds like you did? Which is doing it wrong.
 
2013-07-24 10:03:24 AM  

Limp_Bisquick: It would be a moot point if secondary education was affordable.


Nonsense, you would expect administrator to take a pay cut?

U.S. Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano has been approved by the UC Board of Regents as the first woman president in the 145-year history of the University of California at a salary of $570,000 per year http://www.californiality.com/2013/07/janet-napolitano-new-uc-presiden t.html

How else would they pay for courses in gender or ethnic studies or puppetry? They offer too many college majors in areas of study that should not really exist.
 
2013-07-24 10:03:28 AM  

what_now: dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?

Yes. That is the point. The federal government sets annual and aggregate limits on the amount of money you can borrow from them. Sallie Mae does not.

So, if you could discharge your Sallie Mae loan in bankruptcy, they would think twice before offering a $40,000 loan each year to a kid studying "undecided".


As they *should*.  Everyone has a right to pursue a college education.  Not everyone should go, even those who can afford it.  If you don't know you want to go to college enough to pick something to study, then wait to go until you do know what you want.  Or go somewhere else like a technical school for post secondary study.  Really, we need more trade schools that are cheaper/easier to get into in the US, and less 4 year colleges designed for only recent high school graduates to attend.

In business there is risk.  If students being able to discharge a loan in bankruptcy puts the current lenders out of business because there's too much risk, then other lenders will step up.  That's business for ya.  There's always someone willing to accept the risk for the reward.
 
2013-07-24 10:03:28 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-24 10:03:37 AM  

WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime


Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.
 
2013-07-24 10:04:09 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.


I fail to see the problem with this.
 
2013-07-24 10:04:14 AM  

vernonFL: Because bankruptcy is an extreme last resort and most people would rather do everything they possibly could before declaring bankruptcy over student debt?


Hardly.   There is nothing like racking up 100k of debt and just declaring bankruptcy, discharging the debt, and getting a job.   Its no problem being able to rent a room when you are 23.   Then, the new job starts paying you the big bucks and you are on easy street.

At minimum, if you discharge your govt student loan, you should not be eligible for a home to be backed by freddie.  It would probably still be worth it to skip town on your 100k, but at least you would have to think about it.   People would probably get around this one by having their parents buy the house and the kid makes the payments.  Once the house is paid off.  Parents simply quit claim.  Now, none of the kids had to pay for college.
 
2013-07-24 10:04:38 AM  
I remember reading an interview with Donald Trump a number of years ago in which he was explaining some of his financial situation which went something like this;  "If you are some guy that defaults on a $200k mortgage, the bank is gonna come after you for the money you owe them.  Basically, if you owe a bank $200k you're farked, but if you owe them $200 million, you're partners."
 
2013-07-24 10:04:41 AM  

WhippingBoy: The answer is simple:

- subsidize tuition in order to reduce the frequency/need for student loans
- allow student loans to be absolved through bankruptcy
- provide other means/ways/mechanisms to promote an educated population

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:

- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.
- require that you maintain a certain GPA, or you revert back to the "old" system

What this will do is:
- ease the way for people who actually plan for their future, and are serious about college
- dissuade people from going to college for the sake of going to college
- dissuade people from racking up massive amounts of debt in order to obtain an obviously useless (in terms of ROI) degree

e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime


PSHHHHH your rational approach has no place in a student loan debt thread!  Leave at once!
 
2013-07-24 10:05:11 AM  

Intrepid00: raerae1980: I filed bankruptcy a few years ago specifically so I could handle my student loans. Sucks but I had to do it.   I knew in my last year of grad school that I was sinking in debt and would not be able to handle all of it once my deferment ended.  If I had a choice I would have discharged my loans but kept the credit cards.

Did you pay to go to graduate school cause it sounds like you did? Which is doing it wrong.


Um, there's no funding at the MA level so yes, out of pocket I did.  Now, had I gone on to a PhD then no, I would not have.
 
2013-07-24 10:06:21 AM  

AccuJack: As they *should*. Everyone has a right to pursue a college education. Not everyone should go, even those who can afford it. If you don't know you want to go to college enough to pick something to study, then wait to go until you do know what you want. Or go somewhere else like a technical school for post secondary study. Really, we need more trade schools that are cheaper/easier to get into in the US, and less 4 year colleges designed for only recent high school graduates to attend.


This. This right here.

When I'm made Queen of Everything it will be very very difficult to get into college and very very difficult to stay in college.

Paying for college, however, will not be challenging.
 
2013-07-24 10:07:14 AM  
Why did we bail out the auto makers but not the city that spawned them?
 
2013-07-24 10:08:01 AM  
College is a scam.
 
2013-07-24 10:08:31 AM  
ON the one hand, you have a city that helped grow and prop up the US economy for a century.  And on the other hand, you have an economy recently built on the false premise that a degree is only good if you spend $40,000 per year on it.  Go to a state school.  Let the overpriced shiathole schools die.
 
2013-07-24 10:08:34 AM  

Limp_Bisquick: It would be a moot point if secondary education was affordable.


This is bullshiat.  Get out and see the world for a few years, get off the parental tit so you can apply for financial aid based on your own income.  You'd be surprised how much grant money is available when your income is under $20k per year.  There ARE opportunities but you're already defeated by the impression it's too expensive.  You can't always have it HOW you want it.  If you want it bad enough you will find a way without saddling yourself with crippling debt.  You will learn the meaning of SACRIFICE.

Or get into an apprenticeship program

This country has been conditioned to believe that the only way to achieve prosperity is through a bachelor's degree and now we have a shortage of skilled blue collar workers and a surplus of lawyers and unemployable "educated" youths.

High paying jobs as electricians, plumbers, millwrights and other fields go unfilled because they require hard work instead of expertise in Art History or whatever humanities program you completed at "Cal State Barstow", and entitled sh*tbags think the jobs are beneath them.

Also you start at the bottom and work your way up it's not "plumbers idol" where you're plucked from obscurity and showered with false praise.

I know mommy always told you you were special, but you're not.  You need to get in line with everybody else.
 
2013-07-24 10:08:42 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


you're right.  i would not have lend me the money for my student loans if I were a bank.

let's see, no job, no assets, no income... and you're guaranteed not to be working for several years.  yeah, here's $150k.
 
2013-07-24 10:09:19 AM  

raerae1980: Intrepid00: raerae1980: I filed bankruptcy a few years ago specifically so I could handle my student loans. Sucks but I had to do it.   I knew in my last year of grad school that I was sinking in debt and would not be able to handle all of it once my deferment ended.  If I had a choice I would have discharged my loans but kept the credit cards.

Did you pay to go to graduate school cause it sounds like you did? Which is doing it wrong.

Um, there's no funding at the MA level so yes, out of pocket I did.  Now, had I gone on to a PhD then no, I would not have.


His point was inelegantly stated but correct: It's almost never a good idea to pay for a terminal Master's degree, because they rarely pay for themselves.

There are some exceptions of course, but if you got a Masters in History and took out a loan for it, that's not really a smart fiscal decision.

Nothing you can do about it now, unfortunately, but serve as a warning to others.
 
2013-07-24 10:09:29 AM  
People often claim their bankruptcy is due to an unexpected medical cost or something similar, but nothing can unexpectedly force you into college.  And while you can argue that people being screwed by payday advanced loans and the like are not smart or knowledgeable enough to know they are going to get screwed, college students are assumed to be at least semi-educated.

So, it is assumed you were smart and knowledgeable enough to know exactly what you were getting into, and the debt was completely voluntary.  As such you are unlikely to get a lot of sympathy.


/paid every cent of my student loans
 
2013-07-24 10:09:42 AM  
Because cartels.

In the early '80s tuition and books were still affordable then te predatory GOP saw a cash cow for their cronies and created rackets where textbooks had to be bought new each semester regardless if content had changed or not and students' bank accounts needed to be raided because tax revenues no longer funded schools due to thinks like Prop 13 in CA.

The wealthy Aristocrisy in the US does not like competition.
 
2013-07-24 10:10:24 AM  

what_now: Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.


This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.
 
2013-07-24 10:10:40 AM  
Because, money, that's why. Decades ago it was common practice for rich folks like Dentists and Doctors to setup finish all their schooling then get loans for everything they need to setup their own shop then claim bankruptcy on everything. I mean, really, who cares if they filed for bankruptcy because their entire business is setup. Who needs a line of credit when you have all your equipment and schooling when you're a freaking doctor or dentist!!

Normal plebes didn't know this was an option.

Money begats money.
 
2013-07-24 10:10:44 AM  
Because if you want a loan with the ability to declare bankruptcy, go get one from a private bank and not a loan backed by my tax dollars.

Better sollution: get rid of the student loan program so my tax dollars aren't supporting colleges to raise tuition through the roof.
 
2013-07-24 10:10:50 AM  
my wife and I aren't drowning, per se, but what should have been something that took me 10 years to pay off is going on forever.  we could be doing better things with that money.
 
2013-07-24 10:12:00 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


No, I think you do not realize how right you are.
Why do you think the banks disappeared all the credit money?
 
2013-07-24 10:12:39 AM  

FarkedOver: Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in.
Take to the farking streets.  Make them hear you.


When you believe in the right for people without any credit to get non-collateralized loans at low interest rates that can be discharged you probably shouldn't wast time having people hear you.  It will just make you look silly.

You won't get change from a ballot box

And there we go again.  Students just looking for handouts of change instead of working to earn dollars.

and you want get change from either major party.

I have no idea what that means.  Maybe you can get a refund on some of the tuition you paid?
 
2013-07-24 10:12:46 AM  

what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.


All I hear on Fark is study science and engineering. All I hear from new science and engineering grads is that all the jobs are taken by H1B visa holders who work for Starbucks wages.
 
2013-07-24 10:12:51 AM  
Ooooh, Oooh!

It's because the Banks own the Democrats and Republicans, isn't it!

The same reason that the Banks get to borrow the money they lend to you at basically zero percent and then charge 22% on a credit card..

The same reason none of the fraudulent bankers who destroyed the economy have been criminally prosecuted.
 
2013-07-24 10:12:51 AM  
Because if they did, the universities would go belly up within a decade, and everyone would blame the banks for "predatory student loans."

/so it won't happen until we get a Republican president, as a minimum requirement
//probably require a veto-proof majority Dem congress as well
 
2013-07-24 10:13:07 AM  
I knew when I graduated with my student loan debt I would have to:

A) Get an awesome job, where I can get a decent salary, and pay off the loans myself.
B) Marry rich.

I got half of option A and if anyone knows where I can find option be let me know.
 
2013-07-24 10:13:16 AM  

MugzyBrown: Because if you want a loan with the ability to declare bankruptcy, go get one from a private bank and not a loan backed by my tax dollars.

Better sollution: get rid of the student loan program so my tax dollars aren't supporting colleges to raise tuition through the roof.


Private student loans aren't discoverable in bankruptcy either, and the ED made a $50 Billion profit from Student loans last year, so quit your whining about how your "tax dollars" are paying for this.
 
2013-07-24 10:13:22 AM  

what_now: raerae1980: Intrepid00: raerae1980: I filed bankruptcy a few years ago specifically so I could handle my student loans. Sucks but I had to do it.   I knew in my last year of grad school that I was sinking in debt and would not be able to handle all of it once my deferment ended.  If I had a choice I would have discharged my loans but kept the credit cards.

Did you pay to go to graduate school cause it sounds like you did? Which is doing it wrong.

Um, there's no funding at the MA level so yes, out of pocket I did.  Now, had I gone on to a PhD then no, I would not have.

His point was inelegantly stated but correct: It's almost never a good idea to pay for a terminal Master's degree, because they rarely pay for themselves.

There are some exceptions of course, but if you got a Masters in History and took out a loan for it, that's not really a smart fiscal decision.

Nothing you can do about it now, unfortunately, but serve as a warning to others.


Well, when I made the decision the economy wasn't in the crapper and I was told by my superiors that if I wanted to work in my field, I needed at least an MA.   I get that they were wrong but at the time it seemed like it was worth it.   I was in school for 10 years (BA and MA), a lot changed in that time.
 
2013-07-24 10:13:56 AM  

FarkedOver: Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in.  Take to the farking streets.  Make them hear you.  You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.


i1239.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-24 10:15:10 AM  

LaurenAguilera: Let me sum it up: Because Bush Obama Benghazi Snowden Wikileaks Fox News.

That's why.

Oh, and also Obamacare Welfare and Bootstraps.


Covered all the angles in one post. Nicely done!
 
2013-07-24 10:15:46 AM  

lohphat: Because cartels.

In the early '80s tuition and books were still affordable then te predatory GOP saw a cash cow for their cronies and created rackets where textbooks had to be bought new each semester regardless if content had changed or not and students' bank accounts needed to be raided because tax revenues no longer funded schools due to thinks like Prop 13 in CA.

The wealthy Aristocrisy in the US does not like competition.


Nor do they like a genuine education spread around en masse.
 
2013-07-24 10:16:05 AM  

what_now: Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.


Hard science degrees don't teach critical thinking? *cough*Bullshiat*cough*
 
2013-07-24 10:16:20 AM  

Tatterdemalian: Because if they did, the universities would go belly up within a decade, and everyone would blame the banks for "predatory student loans."


Not all of them. There are a lot of schools that offer a good product at a good price. These schools have a career services department with a higher budget than the football team.

But the second tier private schools that have beautiful campuses, awesome dorms, great parties brah, and cost $50k a year? Well some of them will continue as finishing schools for the wealthy, but most will disappear.

And that's not a bad thing, IMO.
 
2013-07-24 10:16:31 AM  

MythDragon: FarkedOver: Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in.  Take to the farking streets.  Make them hear you.  You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.

[i1239.photobucket.com image 800x625]


If voting changed anything, it would be illegal.
 
2013-07-24 10:16:43 AM  

lohphat: Because cartels.

In the early '80s tuition and books were still affordable then te predatory GOP saw a cash cow for their cronies and created rackets where textbooks had to be bought new each semester regardless if content had changed or not


So you think that most teachers and college administrators are Republican?

That's funny!
 
2013-07-24 10:17:04 AM  
Well, you can't take the knowledge you learned out of your head so you would get educated for free.

But it needs to be more affordable. But they don't want you to earn your own money and get rich. They want you to borrow money with interest so they get rich.
 
2013-07-24 10:17:30 AM  
That's a good question, and I with respect as to why corporations can discharge debt with ease and students can, I think you need look no further than who can contribute to political campaigns. Not students up to their eyeballs in debt
 
2013-07-24 10:17:35 AM  
 
2013-07-24 10:17:46 AM  
You borrow money, you pay it back - simple.
 
2013-07-24 10:18:10 AM  
AccuJack: If you don't know you want to go to college enough to pick something to study, then wait to go until you do know what you want.

Jesus, I wish someone had told me this in high school. I told my dad I wanted to wait and get my shiat together before I went to college, and he got all disappointed and judgmental, so off I went. Went for two and a half years before crippling anxiety and depression, stemming from not knowing what I wanted to do with my life, made me drop out. Now I have student loan debt and no degree. Awesome.
 
2013-07-24 10:18:22 AM  
Because the govenment holds most of the debt and wants their cash.
Better question is why it cost so much in first place.
 
2013-07-24 10:18:35 AM  

thurstonxhowell: what_now: Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Hard science degrees don't teach critical thinking? *cough*Bullshiat*cough*


Some do, sure. "Engineering" and "Computer Science" degrees teach you formulas, and as someone already pointed out all the entry level positions are filled by H1B1 Visa holders and no one is retiring.

I predict that the engineering bubble will burst in the next 5 years, much like the law bubble.
 
2013-07-24 10:18:47 AM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.

All I hear on Fark is study science and engineering. All I hear from new science and engineering grads is that all the jobs are taken by H1B visa holders who work for Starbucks wages.


Yeah, that's a bit of a problem. Unfortunately, to excel in science and engineering takes aptitude and hard work. If the only reason you're getting a degree is because it's the "hot new thing", then you probably won't do very well. Sometimes life isn't fair...
 
2013-07-24 10:20:03 AM  

FarkedOver: Take to the farking streets.


They did. They were told to STFU and GBTW, and we were told that they were just farking around for no good reason.
 
2013-07-24 10:20:07 AM  

brilett: Why did we bail out the auto makers but not the city that spawned them?


It's more interesting to note that when we bailed out the auto companies, the union workers and bond holders got screwed.

Yet when we bailed out the bankers with AIG, they got paid out at 100%.

Here's Senator Warren proving why she is the most awesome member of Congress when it comes to financial matters.
 
2013-07-24 10:20:14 AM  

Chinchillazilla: AccuJack: If you don't know you want to go to college enough to pick something to study, then wait to go until you do know what you want.

Jesus, I wish someone had told me this in high school. I told my dad I wanted to wait and get my shiat together before I went to college, and he got all disappointed and judgmental, so off I went. Went for two and a half years before crippling anxiety and depression, stemming from not knowing what I wanted to do with my life, made me drop out. Now I have student loan debt and no degree. Awesome.


When I'm Queen of Everything all 18 year olds will have 2 years of national service.
 
2013-07-24 10:20:41 AM  

AccuJack: dukeblue219: dukeblue219: That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?

I guess I should have RTFA first because it covers what I just said. Oh well.

Reality check:  This is *Fark*.  You're posting a response to the headline for an article without reading it.

Would you post internet reviews of cars based on the font used to write the text surrounding one picture of the car in an article online if the picture was photoshopped to look like it was in a funny location?

Seriously, re-evaluate your logic process here.  RTFABR (before reply/response).



Fark you. I would if I could.


th05.deviantart.net
 
2013-07-24 10:21:02 AM  

Kome: bopis: Its who you owe it to. The guy with the gun government always gets theirs.

I thought about striking out "government" and putting in "bank" but I'm in a cynical mood this morning and figure that would just be replacing synonyms.


The line is blurred, my loans used to be all chase then they were all dept of ed. now its nel net which I think is gooberment.
 
2013-07-24 10:21:10 AM  
Detroit is hardly hiding behind Chapter 9. It might be time for the writer to go back to school and learn the difference between secured and unsecured debt.
 
2013-07-24 10:21:46 AM  

buddyrtr: You borrow money, you pay it back - simple.


You borrow money.  You whine a lot.  Washington forces your neighbors to pay off part of your loan for you.

/less simple. But effective
 
2013-07-24 10:23:34 AM  

ManateeGag: my wife and I aren't drowning, per se, but what should have been something that took me 10 years to pay off is going on forever.  we could be doing better things with that money.


What made it take more than 10 years to pay off if you were on a 10 year repayment plan?
 
2013-07-24 10:24:37 AM  
Why not put in provisions allowing for the discharge of student loan debt through bankruptcy but at the cost of the nullification of your degree?  You can discharge the debt, but your school is then required to de-list you from the records and you are no longer allowed, under penalty of law and fraud charges, to claim that you earned that degree?

It would discourage abuse of the system, but still leave a way out for those who are at the end of their ropes.
 
2013-07-24 10:25:56 AM  
You have no collateral for a student loan. You get that loan purely on potential future income. If you could have that debt forgiven via bankruptcy student loans would not exist. Charity and loans are two different things. People need to learn the difference.
 
2013-07-24 10:26:44 AM  

FarkedOver: Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in.  Take to the farking streets.  Make them hear you.  You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.


Or, you could not have taken out the loan if you didn't agree with its terms.
 
2013-07-24 10:27:27 AM  

APO_Buddha: Is the answer Socialism?


Socialism is NEVER the answer.

www.akphotograph.com
 
2013-07-24 10:28:36 AM  

fortheloveofgod: Or, you could not have taken out the loan if you didn't agree with its terms.


Good idea.  I should never have went to college.  WHO CARES that almost every job offer says "4 year degree required."
 
2013-07-24 10:28:47 AM  
 cefm: Because Congress, that's why.

Based on zero reliable evidence and a whole lot of hearsay about Doctors declaring bankruptcy during their residency to get rid of med school debt and then walking into 6-figure jobs, Congress decided to monkey with bankruptcy laws.

Maybe - just maybe - the proper solution to this isn't to force (and permit) huge loans to students with little ability to repay them, but to actually have government fund higher education appropriately, and exercise some control on the stupidly high cost of college.


Who is forcing students to go get huge loans?  Zimmerman put a gun to their head?  Nope.
College costs are high because of all the govt money flowing into students pockets.  If you hand over $15k a year to kids, don't expect college to not cost $20k a year.   If you give out $10 to everyone for breakfast, an Egg McMuffin meal will drift in price to $12.50

People went to college before.  They just went to a bank and got a loan and had to justify what kind of
education they wanted to get.  This of course, meant they could not go to the bank and ask for money to get a Gerbil Studies degree.
 
2013-07-24 10:28:50 AM  

AccuJack: dukeblue219: dukeblue219: That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?

I guess I should have RTFA first because it covers what I just said. Oh well.

Reality check:  This is *Fark*.  You're posting a response to the headline for an article without reading it.

Would you post internet reviews of cars based on the font used to write the text surrounding one picture of the car in an article online if the picture was photoshopped to look like it was in a funny location?

Seriously, re-evaluate your logic process here.  RTFABR (before reply/response).


Umm...did u just jump hia shiat after ge said he should have read it first? You need coffee.
 
2013-07-24 10:29:01 AM  

what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.


Gotta throw the bullshiat flag on that one....I've interviewed over 200 recent college grads over the last five years and can definitely attest that liberal arts students are no better in their critical thinking.....in fact, they are probably more likely to answer "it depends" on a yes/no question.They are also lacking in their hard math and science skills....unless they were a math/science major and then they are comparable.

That said I once had a French History major apply for a statistics based position that required a math, engineering, or business degree.  Evidently, she thought that 3 hours of intro to stats qualified her for the role.  I only scheduled her because she came as a reference from an exec in corporate.  The interview took 20 minutes,  I ended the interview by telling her she was clearly not qualified for the position when she couldn't explain to me the formula to calculate a mean...which is just a fancy way of asking how do you calculate the average of a group of numbers.   If these are the people taking out student loans for bullshiat majors and they are bent because they can't find real jobs....fark 'em, let them live with their decisions.
 
2013-07-24 10:29:10 AM  

buddyrtr: You borrow money, you pay it back - simple.


Just ask Whitey,,,,
Bulger, that is.
 
2013-07-24 10:29:46 AM  

WhippingBoy: The answer is simple:

- subsidize tuition in order to reduce the frequency/need for student loans
- allow student loans to be absolved through bankruptcy
- provide other means/ways/mechanisms to promote an educated population

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:

- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.
- require that you maintain a certain GPA, or you revert back to the "old" system

What this will do is:
- ease the way for people who actually plan for their future, and are serious about college
- dissuade people from going to college for the sake of going to college
- dissuade people from racking up massive amounts of debt in order to obtain an obviously useless (in terms of ROI) degree

e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime


While we're at it, smack companies who require college degrees for positions that have no need for the degree.
 
2013-07-24 10:30:04 AM  

lohphat: Because cartels.

In the early '80s tuition and books were still affordable then te predatory GOP saw a cash cow for their cronies and created rackets where textbooks had to be bought new each semester regardless if content had changed or not and students' bank accounts needed to be raided because tax revenues no longer funded schools due to thinks like Prop 13 in CA.

The wealthy Aristocrisy in the US does not like competition.


So 7 books, twice per year, 4 years is generously $10,000, and that's not even figured into tuition and room & board.  Where does the other $160,000 go?
 
2013-07-24 10:30:15 AM  

AccuJack: Reality check:  This is *Fark*.  You're posting a response to the headline for an article without reading it.

Would you post internet reviews of cars based on the font used to write the text surrounding one picture of the car in an article online if the picture was photoshopped to look like it was in a funny location?

Seriously, re-evaluate your logic process here.  RTFABR (before reply/response).


Wait - you started off by saying "this is Fark" and then implied that there was some sort of high standard here where everyone just naturally rtfa before responding.  What are you, new?
 
2013-07-24 10:31:16 AM  

what_now: thurstonxhowell: what_now: Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Hard science degrees don't teach critical thinking? *cough*Bullshiat*cough*

Some do, sure. "Engineering" and "Computer Science" degrees teach you formulas, and as someone already pointed out all the entry level positions are filled by H1B1 Visa holders and no one is retiring.

I predict that the engineering bubble will burst in the next 5 years, much like the law bubble.


As an engineer, I classify your entire post as bullshiat, but especially the bolded parts.

There will always be demand for engineers simply because they have a fundamental understanding of how machinery/programs work and how to fix them. As for visa holders having the jobs, well, that should help prove a point that THIS COUNTRY NEEDS MORE HOME GROWN ENGINEERS!

Also, do you really think liberal arts majors are the only people taught critical thinking? You should be publicly shamed for such an idiotic comment.
 
2013-07-24 10:31:35 AM  
Because they didn't go to a private, Northeast university to major in Medeival Literature.
 
2013-07-24 10:32:00 AM  
Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...
 
2013-07-24 10:33:17 AM  

stuff: So, it is assumed you were smart and knowledgeable enough to know exactly what you were getting into, and the debt was completely voluntary.


Except that the student loan debt is usually started when the kid is fresh out of high school, not at the end of their college career.

I get annoyed by everyone whining about student loans, but I'm not sure your argument is the right one.
 
2013-07-24 10:33:19 AM  
In bankruptcy you have to sell items to satisfy creditors.

I think student loans should be discharged through bankruptcy but the person claiming bankruptcy should have to undergo a lobotomy to erase all that knowledge they don't want to pay for.
 
2013-07-24 10:36:44 AM  

neversubmit: tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.

 
2013-07-24 10:37:11 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


Came here to say this.

On the flip side, you are creating false demand, which actually then helps raise the price.
As opposed to less people being able to pay, so prices come down.

/can you tell I used loans for me education
 
2013-07-24 10:41:13 AM  

what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.


That's some quality blinders, right there.

/Yes, I'd like fries with that.
 
2013-07-24 10:41:48 AM  
WhippingBoy:
This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.


Whatever, dude.  You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever.  If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it.  Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle".  Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations.  That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person.  I talk to the engineers!
//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.
 
2013-07-24 10:42:26 AM  
The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments.  Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.

No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

A $180,000 degree from Barry College is great, but maybe pursuing that degree at a costs of $30,000 at an in-state public institution is a wiser decision, especially if there is no difference in earning potential.
 
2013-07-24 10:43:58 AM  

PluckYew: Limp_Bisquick: It would be a moot point if secondary education was affordable.

This is bullshiat.  Get out and see the world for a few years, get off the parental tit so you can apply for financial aid based on your own income.  You'd be surprised how much grant money is available when your income is under $20k per year.  There ARE opportunities but you're already defeated by the impression it's too expensive.  You can't always have it HOW you want it.  If you want it bad enough you will find a way without saddling yourself with crippling debt.  You will learn the meaning of SACRIFICE.

Or get into an apprenticeship program

This country has been conditioned to believe that the only way to achieve prosperity is through a bachelor's degree and now we have a shortage of skilled blue collar workers and a surplus of lawyers and unemployable "educated" youths.

High paying jobs as electricians, plumbers, millwrights and other fields go unfilled because they require hard work instead of expertise in Art History or whatever humanities program you completed at "Cal State Barstow", and entitled sh*tbags think the jobs are beneath them.

Also you start at the bottom and work your way up it's not "plumbers idol" where you're plucked from obscurity and showered with false praise.

I know mommy always told you you were special, but you're not.  You need to get in line with everybody else.


True as your rant may be, secondary education is a tad overpriced.
 
2013-07-24 10:44:33 AM  

FarkedOver: fortheloveofgod: Or, you could not have taken out the loan if you didn't agree with its terms.

Good idea.  I should never have went to college.  WHO CARES that almost every job offer says "4 year degree required."


If you couldn't afford the debt, then no, you never should have gone to college.  You're looking for the answer in the wrong place.  The evil is not in the loan, the evil is in the high cost of education.  If education was priced at a reasonable level, the loan you had to take out would have been much smaller.  Get to the root cause - the price of the education, not that evil loan that YOU agreed to.
 
2013-07-24 10:46:15 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: WhippingBoy:
This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.

Whatever, dude.  You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever.  If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it.  Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle".  Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations.  That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person.  I talk to the engineers!
//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.


I don't disagree with the sentiment; you're basically correct (although it's more like 25%, not 5%).
 
2013-07-24 10:47:37 AM  

fortheloveofgod: If you couldn't afford the debt, then no, you never should have gone to college. You're looking for the answer in the wrong place. The evil is not in the loan, the evil is in the high cost of education. If education was priced at a reasonable level, the loan you had to take out would have been much smaller. Get to the root cause - the price of the education, not that evil loan that YOU agreed to.


The "evil" loan and the cost of education are hand in glove.  They are both actors on the same stage performing for the same outcome; profit at the expense of those least likely to afford it.  I understand this is the nature vampiritic nature of capitalism, which is why I have become increasingly more anti-capitalist.
 
2013-07-24 10:48:26 AM  

vernonFL: Because bankruptcy is an extreme last resort and most people would rather do everything they possibly could before declaring bankruptcy over student debt?


We are talking about people that basically made their first real world, adult decision to be "go into debt".  We aren't talking about most people.
 
2013-07-24 10:48:47 AM  
JeffreyScott:
No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

While probably true, any candidate going into research who just read this collectively broke into tears from reading this.  Some of those kids go to Ivy League schools and live in a tiny apartment, on Ramen Noodles, with one outfit and a bus pass.
 
2013-07-24 10:49:30 AM  
Because they're not the same thing? Dumbass
 
2013-07-24 10:50:41 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: WhippingBoy:
This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.

Whatever, dude.  You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever.  If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it.  Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle".  Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations.  That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person.  I talk to the engineers!
//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.


I hold a BA in Philosophy and now I work as a software dev.  A CS degree is a waste of time, its more about what you KNOW and what you can DO.

I also write killer documentation that makes you question truth.
 
2013-07-24 10:50:52 AM  
Too big to feel.
 
2013-07-24 10:51:57 AM  

mainstreet62: what_now: thurstonxhowell: what_now: Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Hard science degrees don't teach critical thinking? *cough*Bullshiat*cough*

Some do, sure. "Engineering" and "Computer Science" degrees teach you formulas, and as someone already pointed out all the entry level positions are filled by H1B1 Visa holders and no one is retiring.

I predict that the engineering bubble will burst in the next 5 years, much like the law bubble.

As an engineer, I classify your entire post as bullshiat, but especially the bolded parts.

There will always be demand for engineers simply because they have a fundamental understanding of how machinery/programs work and how to fix them. As for visa holders having the jobs, well, that should help prove a point that THIS COUNTRY NEEDS MORE HOME GROWN ENGINEERS!

Also, do you really think liberal arts majors are the only people taught critical thinking? You should be publicly shamed for such an idiotic comment.


This.
Besides the parts you highlighted, there is the gem of a notion that those degrees, especially CompSci, teach formulas.  That made me laugh
 
2013-07-24 10:52:56 AM  

FarkedOver: fortheloveofgod: If you couldn't afford the debt, then no, you never should have gone to college. You're looking for the answer in the wrong place. The evil is not in the loan, the evil is in the high cost of education. If education was priced at a reasonable level, the loan you had to take out would have been much smaller. Get to the root cause - the price of the education, not that evil loan that YOU agreed to.

The "evil" loan and the cost of education are hand in glove.  They are both actors on the same stage performing for the same outcome; profit at the expense of those least likely to afford it.  I understand this is the nature vampiritic nature of capitalism, which is why I have become increasingly more anti-capitalist.


And yet you are still here. Why is that if its so evil and there are much better socialist/maxist places you could go?

/like complaining about a splinter and refusing to pull it out... then complaining about it some more
 
2013-07-24 10:53:48 AM  

PluckYew: FarkedOver: tenpoundsofcheese: You actually believe that no one ever moves from one class to another? That is a stupid statement, even for you.

Statistically, you die in the class you are born.

PluckYew: Your disparaging comment about 'factory workers' indicates to me you think those jobs are beneath you.

There are shortages of qualified applicants for good paying blue collar jobs that don't require a 4 year degree. You're probably too smart for any of them right?

Wasn't disparaging at all.  I'm sorry I made you clutch your pearls in outrage though.

And I encourage as many people as I can to take up a trade rather than going to college.  But what happens when the blue collar fields are all filled?  Do we just keep going from one bubble to the next?

I'm sorry you hate that people go to college instead of being factory employees just smart enough to work a machine

Willfully ignorant or just stupid?

I don't hate that people go to college, I hate that everyone is conditioned to believe that going to college is the only way to achieve prosperity.  I went to college, I've worked in trades.  I have moderate student loans, that I am PAYING which is what this thread was about.

Losers who've incurred debts they can't afford to pay back because they've been conditioned by their guidance counselor or some other 'authority figure' to believe it's the only way to get ahead.

There are many paths to prosperity in this country, if you can't see that then you should probably consider moving to some place like Best Korea, you'd probably find it to be Shangri-La.


First of all, I never accused you of believing that.  And I personally don't believe that.  My belief is that is what the capitalists want.  An expendable populace only smart enough to serve the needs of the elite.

OH look who is being disparaging to college grads! I AM OUTRAGED!
 
2013-07-24 10:55:09 AM  

Mikey1969: stuff: So, it is assumed you were smart and knowledgeable enough to know exactly what you were getting into, and the debt was completely voluntary.

Except that the student loan debt is usually started when the kid is fresh out of high school, not at the end of their college career.

I get annoyed by everyone whining about student loans, but I'm not sure your argument is the right one.


If you are smart enough to get into college and know how to use the intertubes you should be smart enough to know what you are getting into.
It isn't as if this topic is some secret thing that no one knows about until after they graduate.  Even the President talks about this issue.
 
2013-07-24 10:55:14 AM  

Joe Blowme: And yet you are still here. Why is that if its so evil and there are much better socialist/maxist places you could go?

/like complaining about a splinter and refusing to pull it out... then complaining about it some more


Why not attempt to change this capitalist culture into something truly Egalitarian?  I don't understand why this is something that appalling to you.
 
2013-07-24 10:56:08 AM  
The bottom line is that if you're racking up 5 or 6 figures in student loan debt in order to get a Bachelor's degree in History or English Lit, you're part of the problem.
 
2013-07-24 10:56:12 AM  

Eponymous: I ended the interview by telling her she was clearly not qualified for the position when she couldn't explain to me the formula to calculate a mean..


Back when Bodies: The Exhibition was in town, I went there with my aunt. We were having a great time going through the exhibit and learning cool stuff about anatomy when we got to the stone fetus and I heard a woman say 'There's just no way. It would come out when you pee. That can't be real.' The exchange after that involved someone else asking her how she could possibly not know that your vagina and urethra are two different holes, and her saying that she was a history major in college who works at a bank, so how is she supposed to know things like that.

If anything, I hope she at least learned that your vadge and your pee hole are different holes after visiting that exhibit.
 
2013-07-24 10:56:12 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: WhippingBoy:
This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.

Whatever, dude.  You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever.  If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it.  Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle".  Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations.  That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person.  I talk to the engineers!
//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.


I noticed that at one of my first jobs (oil & gas at the time). Now I work at research labs and I use a lot of my education.. It feels that I even need a master's degree sometimes.

/Winning
 
2013-07-24 10:57:35 AM  

JeffreyScott: The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments.  Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.

No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

A $180,000 degree from Barry College is great, but maybe pursuing that degree at a costs of $30,000 at an in-state public institution is a wiser decision, especially if there is no difference in earning potential.


People keep saying this like we don't have museums, research centers, libraries and galleries. Yeah the turnover in some of these jobs is low, but there is a need to replace curators, librarians, archivists and professors. They all die/retire sometime. These places are storehouses of our history. I don't know why you'd want that neglected. It's not all on Google, trust me.

Also making the government pour tons of people into a select group of degrees will oversaturate those degree fields, and dry up opportunities. I am on board with incentives to apply for a medical, scientific or technical degree, but basing the entire mandate on it is going to make you wind up with tons of useless engineering and nursing grads who can't be placed anywhere. The same sh*t is already happening to law and business, so why encourage that elsewhere?

I know it's hard to picture that because the STEM fields need people now, but it can, in fact happen.

Another thing: some of us art majors went into other fields, and got other skills qualifying us to do more than pour coffee. I got my degree 10 years ago and I've spent the last 9 in defense.

/Last: based on the average Fark comment, no, most of you do NOT know how to think critically.
 
2013-07-24 11:01:05 AM  

FarkedOver: PluckYew: FarkedOver: tenpoundsofcheese: You actually believe that no one ever moves from one class to another? That is a stupid statement, even for you.

Statistically, you die in the class you are born.

PluckYew: Your disparaging comment about 'factory workers' indicates to me you think those jobs are beneath you.

There are shortages of qualified applicants for good paying blue collar jobs that don't require a 4 year degree. You're probably too smart for any of them right?

Wasn't disparaging at all.  I'm sorry I made you clutch your pearls in outrage though.

And I encourage as many people as I can to take up a trade rather than going to college.  But what happens when the blue collar fields are all filled?  Do we just keep going from one bubble to the next?

I'm sorry you hate that people go to college instead of being factory employees just smart enough to work a machine

Willfully ignorant or just stupid?

I don't hate that people go to college, I hate that everyone is conditioned to believe that going to college is the only way to achieve prosperity.  I went to college, I've worked in trades.  I have moderate student loans, that I am PAYING which is what this thread was about.

Losers who've incurred debts they can't afford to pay back because they've been conditioned by their guidance counselor or some other 'authority figure' to believe it's the only way to get ahead.

There are many paths to prosperity in this country, if you can't see that then you should probably consider moving to some place like Best Korea, you'd probably find it to be Shangri-La.

First of all, I never accused you of believing that.  And I personally don't believe that.  My belief is that is what the capitalists want.  An expendable populace only smart enough to serve the needs of the elite.

OH look who is being disparaging to college grads! I AM OUTRAGED!


Why are your posts being deleted?  Serious question, because I don't know what was offensive.  (I am probably looking at the ban hammer for questioning moderators but I don't want to make the mistake in the future).

Yeah, Losers who can't pay the debts they've incurred, not all college graduates, I am not self-loathing.
 
2013-07-24 11:01:18 AM  
In the "good old days" tm, student loans were absolved in bankruptcy.

Met a few students when I was in the system who had this as their M.O., their life had been set up so that they had no assets in their name, and would declare bankruptcy upon graduation, and walk away clear.
So that loophole got plugged.
Don't like the new reality?  Blame the greed-heads of your parents and grand-parents generation.

/paid mine off
//were'nt much back then, though.
///no easy answers.
 
2013-07-24 11:01:24 AM  

FarkedOver: Joe Blowme: And yet you are still here. Why is that if its so evil and there are much better socialist/maxist places you could go?

/like complaining about a splinter and refusing to pull it out... then complaining about it some more

Why not attempt to change this capitalist culture into something truly Egalitarian?  I don't understand why this is something that appalling to you.


Its not, i like the constitution which states the main point of Egalitarians.
life is what you make it, dont just stand arround crying life is not fair with your hand out.

"Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth "
 
2013-07-24 11:01:26 AM  

WhippingBoy: The bottom line is that if you're racking up 5 or 6 figures in student loan debt in order to get a Bachelor's degree in History or English Lit, you're part of the problem.


That's because the country's biggest and best facilities for literature and history aren't cheap. Eventually, someone will be in charge of researching, archiving, studying and sharing that data, and it won't be a server admin. It'll be an historian, archivist, or professor who may require server admin. knowledge to do it.

So yeah, somebody has to pay the 5-6 figures and get their English Lit. degree, so they can eventually become the Ph. D responsible for what is only the collective written history of our species.

/But tell me more about how engineers can think critically.
 
2013-07-24 11:01:34 AM  
Fark all of you, I make money to go to College. 1500 a month from the GI Bill for Active Duty service and 100% tuition is paid by my States National Guard. If someone wants to go to school for free there are ways to do it. You have to work to do it though, I know that all you liberal farking turds don't want to that though.
 
2013-07-24 11:02:06 AM  

verbaltoxin: JeffreyScott: The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments.  Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.

No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

A $180,000 degree from Barry College is great, but maybe pursuing that degree at a costs of $30,000 at an in-state public institution is a wiser decision, especially if there is no difference in earning potential.

People keep saying this like we don't have museums, research centers, libraries and galleries. Yeah the turnover in some of these jobs is low, but there is a need to replace curators, librarians, archivists and professors. They all die/retire sometime. These places are storehouses of our history. I don't know why you'd want that neglected. It's not all on Google, trust me.

Also making the government pour tons of people into a select group of degrees will oversaturate those degree fields, and dry up opportunities. I am on board with incentives to apply for a medical, scientific or technical degree, but basing the entire mandate on it is going to make you wind up with tons of useless engineering and nursing grads who can't be placed anywhere. The same sh*t is already happening to law and business, so why encourage that elsewhere?

I know it's hard to picture that because the STEM fields need people now, but it can, in fact happen.

Another thing: some of us art majors went into other fields, and got other skills qualifying us to do more than ...


I believe you replied to the wrong post.

/Which makes your critical thinking comment pretty funny
 
2013-07-24 11:02:51 AM  

Joe Blowme: "Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth "


True egalitarianism can occur when we rid this world of capitalism.
 
2013-07-24 11:04:02 AM  

PluckYew: Why are your posts being deleted?


Name calling.... don't question it just roll with it.  I know what I said and I know who I said it to and I probably know who deleted it.  Let's just leave it at that.
 
2013-07-24 11:06:15 AM  

Joe Blowme: FarkedOver: Joe Blowme: And yet you are still here. Why is that if its so evil and there are much better socialist/maxist places you could go?

/like complaining about a splinter and refusing to pull it out... then complaining about it some more

Why not attempt to change this capitalist culture into something truly Egalitarian?  I don't understand why this is something that appalling to you.

Its not, i like the constitution which states the main point of Egalitarians.
life is what you make it, dont just stand arround crying life is not fair with your hand out.

"Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth "


Agree.
It would be impossible to engineering a society based on equal outcomes.
Would also be a depressing place to live as I watch my neighbor pitch for the Yankees in the world series because it is his turn.
 
2013-07-24 11:06:23 AM  

verbaltoxin: WhippingBoy: The bottom line is that if you're racking up 5 or 6 figures in student loan debt in order to get a Bachelor's degree in History or English Lit, you're part of the problem.

That's because the country's biggest and best facilities for literature and history aren't cheap. Eventually, someone will be in charge of researching, archiving, studying and sharing that data, and it won't be a server admin. It'll be an historian, archivist, or professor who may require server admin. knowledge to do it.

So yeah, somebody has to pay the 5-6 figures and get their English Lit. degree, so they can eventually become the Ph. D responsible for what is only the collective written history of our species.

/But tell me more about how engineers can think critically.


Yes, and my original comment covered that. I'm not talking about the people who take History because they have a burning passion for history and detailed plans on what they're going to do with their lives. I'm talking about the people who take History because the History course schedule at the time of registration allowed them Mondays and Fridays off.
 
2013-07-24 11:07:20 AM  

what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.


hahahahahah...

I have a BS in CS. Outside my office, I see seas of cubicles filled with Medical Doctors.

Outside our building, down the street, around the corner, holding a handwritten sign, I see liberal arts graduates begging for change.
 
2013-07-24 11:09:01 AM  

HipsterTrash: Fark all of you, I make money to go to College. 1500 a month from the GI Bill for Active Duty service and 100% tuition is paid by my States National Guard. If someone wants to go to school for free there are ways to do it. You have to work to do it though, I know that all you liberal farking turds don't want to that though.


It doesn't even have to be the military if you're opposed to it.

It was my path but my point is and has been in this thread, there are opportunities for those who are willing to take unconventional paths.  Maybe it's Americorps, (does that still exist?).  Maybe it takes you longer than 4 years, maybe you work in a job you hate as motivation.  Nobody owes you anything and certainly not a post secondary education.
 
2013-07-24 11:09:23 AM  

Carousel Beast: verbaltoxin: JeffreyScott: The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments.  Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.

No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

A $180,000 degree from Barry College is great, but maybe pursuing that degree at a costs of $30,000 at an in-state public institution is a wiser decision, especially if there is no difference in earning potential.

People keep saying this like we don't have museums, research centers, libraries and galleries. Yeah the turnover in some of these jobs is low, but there is a need to replace curators, librarians, archivists and professors. They all die/retire sometime. These places are storehouses of our history. I don't know why you'd want that neglected. It's not all on Google, trust me.

Also making the government pour tons of people into a select group of degrees will oversaturate those degree fields, and dry up opportunities. I am on board with incentives to apply for a medical, scientific or technical degree, but basing the entire mandate on it is going to make you wind up with tons of useless engineering and nursing grads who can't be placed anywhere. The same sh*t is already happening to law and business, so why encourage that elsewhere?

I know it's hard to picture that because the STEM fields need people now, but it can, in fact happen.

Another thing: some of us art majors went into other fields, and got other skills qualifying us to ...


It does, but it happens. I don't care. It's Fark. Most of these people have already made up their minds when they saw there was a thread on this topic.

Anyway, I already said I agreed with providing incentives to STEM degrees. I'm open to that. I didn't dismiss it. I said I wasn't for making it a mandate, so colleges pour millions into what would eventually be a saturated market. Incentives, like lower fees, lower APR, loans dischargeable under specific conditions - I'm for that.

If there's a "critical need" for a certain field, then make the incentives better. If not, then there should be a "standard rate." But that index has to change over time, so there has to be a mechanism in place to make sure we adjust as needed to reflect the market. As I mentioned, even the slow-moving art and lit. fields will need new personnel someday, and the best colleges aren't cheap.

Regarding non-college fields, yes, we should incentivize those too. I understand from my own experiences that certain jobs, like network administration, require more trade skills than classroom skills. Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.
 
2013-07-24 11:10:39 AM  

FarkedOver: You won't get change from a ballot box


For all their douchebaggery, the Teabaggers are proving you wrong on that point. Primary challenges for any politician who doesn't represent them the way they want is certainly shifting the GOP position.

Perhaps if Democrats spent a little less time fussing about what the GOP are doing and tried holding their own representatives to account in similar fashion, rather than consistently retreating behind a 'lesser of two evils' defense, they might actually get somewhere.
 
2013-07-24 11:11:58 AM  

raerae1980: I filed bankruptcy a few years ago specifically so I could handle my student loans. Sucks but I had to do it.   I knew in my last year of grad school that I was sinking in debt and would not be able to handle all of it once my deferment ended.  If I had a choice I would have discharged my loans but kept the credit cards.


You know you are bad at math when you're bankrupt before you even finish accruing the deb!
 
2013-07-24 11:13:00 AM  

HipsterTrash: Fark all of you, I make money to go to College. 1500 a month from the GI Bill for Active Duty service and 100% tuition is paid by my States National Guard. If someone wants to go to school for free there are ways to do it. You have to work to do it though, I know that all you liberal farking turds don't want to that though.


Not bad.... you would've scored a little higher if you wrote "librul" or "damn libs" instead.

7.65/10

Gabrielmot: I have a BS in CS. Outside my office, I see seas of cubicles filled with Medical Doctors.


I have my fourth grade diploma and a GED in Law.  Outside my sumptuous corner office, I see you peering from your lowly associate office over an ocean of MDs in cubicles, liberal arts graduates begging for change and holders of masters degrees foraging in dumpsters in some dystopian setting that exists only in your own mind.
 
2013-07-24 11:14:19 AM  

And I've just finished my milk: FarkedOver: You won't get change from a ballot box

For all their douchebaggery, the Teabaggers are proving you wrong on that point. Primary challenges for any politician who doesn't represent them the way they want is certainly shifting the GOP position.

Perhaps if Democrats spent a little less time fussing about what the GOP are doing and tried holding their own representatives to account in similar fashion, rather than consistently retreating behind a 'lesser of two evils' defense, they might actually get somewhere.


Because of gerry mandering, Democrats have to get more people to vote for them per capita to win or hold a seat compared to a Republican. Splitting the ticket in a primary battle could cause the Democrat to lose.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-18/republicans-foil-what-most- u- s-wants-with-gerrymandering.html
 
2013-07-24 11:14:49 AM  

FarkedOver: The "evil" loan and the cost of education are hand in glove.  They are both actors on the same stage performing for the same outcome; profit at the expense of those least likely to afford it.  I understand this is the nature vampiritic nature of capitalism, which is why I have become increasingly more anti-capitalist


Now I understand.
 
2013-07-24 11:15:39 AM  

fortheloveofgod: FarkedOver: The "evil" loan and the cost of education are hand in glove.  They are both actors on the same stage performing for the same outcome; profit at the expense of those least likely to afford it.  I understand this is the nature vampiritic nature of capitalism, which is why I have become increasingly more anti-capitalist

Now I understand.


Cool :)
 
2013-07-24 11:16:18 AM  

verbaltoxin: WhippingBoy: The bottom line is that if you're racking up 5 or 6 figures in student loan debt in order to get a Bachelor's degree in History or English Lit, you're part of the problem.

That's because the country's biggest and best facilities for literature and history aren't cheap. Eventually, someone will be in charge of researching, archiving, studying and sharing that data, and it won't be a server admin. It'll be an historian, archivist, or professor who may require server admin. knowledge to do it.

So yeah, somebody has to pay the 5-6 figures and get their English Lit. degree, so they can eventually become the Ph. D responsible for what is only the collective written history of our species.

/But tell me more about how engineers can think critically.


Are literature and history different for differing levels of fees?  You seem to be arguing not that more expensive Universities may have better instructors, but that those Universities are worth more solely because they are more expensive. I've known a number of librarians and curators, and the majority came from reasonably-priced schools.
 
2013-07-24 11:17:17 AM  
Because entitled, bootstrappiness, welfare queen, refrigerators, rims, bling bling.

/did I get them all?
 
2013-07-24 11:18:50 AM  
Because we are livestock on a corporate-owned free-range tax farm called "the United States of America."

We are livestock, being farmed for our productivity.  Human livestock is the most valuable livestock there is, but there's one problem -- they won't work as much when they are not compelled to work, through debt and constantly-depreciating currency (which must be used to pay "taxes").  So, taxes and debt are imposed, in order to motivate people to work more.  Debt is the modern whip, to motivate the workers.

That's all "national debt" is -- a mechanism for imposing debt obligations on future generations of livestock, who incidentally can't complain.  (Not that voting matters.  The little suggestion box they put out every 4 years is just for show.)  National debt is the modern replacement for multi-generational debt obligations.  It ensures that the young will work.

College debt is especially useful for our corporate owners, because it targets young people, who work more and earn less, thus are less valuable as a resource for revenue via income taxes.  College loans is a means of imposing an increased level of debt.tax obligations on young people, regardless of how much they earn.

Now that Obama has cut out the middle-man and made young people indebted directly to the national corporate State, the State will (of course) eventually offer other ways that young people can buy their freedom.  Military service, for example, or other forms of direct State-controlled labor.
 
2013-07-24 11:18:58 AM  

tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.


well I for one don't see any problem with letting young people with few if any assets borrow thousands of dollars then discharge that debt with no real consequences.
 
2013-07-24 11:22:36 AM  

Mikey1969: Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...


Bootstraps!
 
2013-07-24 11:28:06 AM  

Voiceofreason01: tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.

well I for one don't see any problem with letting young people with few if any assets borrow thousands of dollars then discharge that debt with no real consequences.



Why do the young people in this system bear 100% of the risk, whereas the schools (many of which are state-owned and operated), and which receive all of the money, bear none of it?

Do you not see a problem with giving billions of dollars in easy government money to schools, with "no real consequences" if they provide little or no value to anyone in return?

This system guarantees that schools will tend, over time, to orient their services in a way that will maximize their subsidies, and minimize their obligations to students.  Obviously.
 
2013-07-24 11:29:47 AM  
"Sanskrit? You're majoring in a 5000 year-old dead language?"
i265.photobucket.com

That's why!
 
2013-07-24 11:30:45 AM  

And I've just finished my milk: FarkedOver: You won't get change from a ballot box

For all their douchebaggery, the Teabaggers are proving you wrong on that point. Primary challenges for any politician who doesn't represent them the way they want is certainly shifting the GOP position.

Perhaps if Democrats spent a little less time fussing about what the GOP are doing and tried holding their own representatives to account in similar fashion, rather than consistently retreating behind a 'lesser of two evils' defense, they might actually get somewhere.


This +10.
 
2013-07-24 11:33:28 AM  

trotsky: Mikey1969: Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...

Bootstraps!


I DO need a government grant to buy a set of those...
 
2013-07-24 11:39:12 AM  

verbaltoxin: And I've just finished my milk: FarkedOver: You won't get change from a ballot box

For all their douchebaggery, the Teabaggers are proving you wrong on that point. Primary challenges for any politician who doesn't represent them the way they want is certainly shifting the GOP position.

Perhaps if Democrats spent a little less time fussing about what the GOP are doing and tried holding their own representatives to account in similar fashion, rather than consistently retreating behind a 'lesser of two evils' defense, they might actually get somewhere.

Because of gerry mandering, Democrats have to get more people to vote for them per capita to win or hold a seat compared to a Republican. Splitting the ticket in a primary battle could cause the Democrat to lose.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-18/republicans-foil-what-most- u- s-wants-with-gerrymandering.html


Democrat losses might well be the price that has to be paid in order to get some decent politicians in place. Personally I'd rather accept some short-term pain for the chance of actual long-term gain, rather than just settling for a long, slow decline because it's the lesser evil. YMMV..
 
2013-07-24 11:39:40 AM  

Phinn: Voiceofreason01: tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.

well I for one don't see any problem with letting young people with few if any assets borrow thousands of dollars then discharge that debt with no real consequences.

Why do the young people in this system bear 100% of the risk, whereas the schools (many of which are state-owned and operated), and which receive all of the money, bear none of it?

Do you not see a problem with giving billions of dollars in easy government money to schools, with "no real consequences" if they provide little or no value to anyone in return?

This system guarantees that schools will tend, over time, to orient their services in a way that will maximize their subsidies, and minimize their obligations to students.  Obviously.


Schools and the programs they run are accredited; with the most basic of research you can get a good idea of the relative quality of a particular school and what kind of career you can make from a degree in a particular field. The whole point of student loans is that banks can offer much better rates than they otherwise would on essentially unsecured loans because they know that debt is very difficult to get out of: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.
 
2013-07-24 11:43:42 AM  

verbaltoxin: JeffreyScott: The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments.  Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.


People keep saying this like we don't have museums, research centers, libraries and galleries. Yeah the turnover in some of these jobs is low, but there is a need to replace curators, librarians, archivists and professors. They all die/retire sometime. These places are storehouses of our history. I don't know why you'd want that neglected. It's not all on Google, trust me.

Also making the government pour tons of people into a select group of degrees will oversaturate those degree fields, and dry up opportunities. I am on board with incentives to apply for a medical, scientific or technical degree, but basing the entire mandate on it is going to make you wind up with tons of useless engineering and nursing grads who can't be placed anywhere. The same sh*t is already happening to law and business, so why encourage that elsewhere?

I know it's hard to picture that because the STEM fields need people now, but it can, in fact happen.

Another thing: some of us art majors went into other fields, and got other skills qualifying us to do more than ...


I value museums, research centers, libraries and galleries, but I reject that idea that the only person qualified to be curators, librarians, archivists and professors are individuals with $250,000 degrees from a top ranked college or university.

Additionally, I am not suggesting that the government prohibit people from pursuing any specific degree, just that they set reasonable limits on how much money a person can borrow to obtain it.  That wouldn't necessarily prohibit someone from obtaining a poetry degree, though it may shorten the list of potential colleges they could attend to obtain it.  However, that is much better than saddling someone with debt that will negatively impact them for decades after graduation.

Finally I am aware that many people end up in fields that are outside the scope of their degrees.  But that begs the question of whether they needed a degree in the first place.
 
2013-07-24 11:53:32 AM  

Voiceofreason01: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.



You must have missed the memo where Obama socialized the student "loan" industry.

Also, the existence of (and ease of obtaining) the "loans" is what increases the price of the thing for which the loan is obtained.  (See, e.g., government-sponsored housing loan programs and house prices over, say, the last 20 years.)
 
2013-07-24 11:55:48 AM  

AccuJack: what_now: dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?

Yes. That is the point. The federal government sets annual and aggregate limits on the amount of money you can borrow from them. Sallie Mae does not.

So, if you could discharge your Sallie Mae loan in bankruptcy, they would think twice before offering a $40,000 loan each year to a kid studying "undecided".

As they *should*.  Everyone has a right to pursue a college education.  Not everyone should go, even those who can afford it.  If you don't know you want to go to college enough to pick something to study, then wait to go until you do know what you want.  Or go somewhere else like a technical school for post secondary study.  Really, we need more trade schools that are cheaper/easier to get into in the US, and less 4 year colleges designed for only recent high school graduates to attend.

In business there is risk.  If students being able to discharge a loan in bankruptcy puts the current lenders out of business because there's too much risk, then other lenders will step up.  That's business for ya.  There's always someone willing to accept the risk for the reward.


This is part of the problem:  "Everyone has a right to pursue a college education".  I missed that in the Bill of Rights.  Nobody has a right to pursue a college education.  Some have the ability to, others have the financial wherewithal to, some have neither, and others have both.  But none of these conditions imply a universal "right" to a college education.  There are certainly a lot of other parts to this problem, such as the cost of a college education relative to its benefits, or the amount of time it takes to accrue those benefits relative to the amount of time it takes to pay back the costs.

Regarding the question of risk vs. reward for lenders, what you suggest would more likely dramatically drive down the number of loans offered (and, thus, students in college).  Risk would be very high (if students could discharge loan debt in bankruptcy), so loan rates would be accordingly high (that's how risk vs. reward works).  Lenders would be forced to make the calculations themselves ... "Gender Sudies?  No loan for you!"  This may eventually solve the cost problem, as colleges and universities will no longer be able to fund those huge salaries.  However, it doesn't get us what we want -- a better educated citizenry.

I'm in favor of some sort of taxpayer-based subsidizing, as I believe a smarter, more well-informed populace benefits everyone, but not with the current college cost structure.  State schools (I'm happy to be a graduate of one) are a good bet, as their costs are typically well below their private school counterparts.  However, I haven't seen a model that gets it quite right yet.
 
2013-07-24 11:57:13 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


Remove regulation and let the market correct itself.  The education bubble needs to pop.

A loan?  For an art degree?  Here's 10 dollars.
 
2013-07-24 11:59:09 AM  
Detroit has value, but no money. You simply have no money.
 
2013-07-24 12:01:05 PM  

Limp_Bisquick: It would be a moot point if secondary education was affordable.


It actually might be if it were not for the loans.   YAY Free money loans for everybody!!!111 Created a supply/demand problem that allowed schools to jack up the rates.
 
2013-07-24 12:04:40 PM  

Phinn: Voiceofreason01: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.

You must have missed the memo where Obama socialized the student "loan" industry.

Also, the existence of (and ease of obtaining) the "loans" is what increases the price of the thing for which the loan is obtained.  (See, e.g., government-sponsored housing loan programs and house prices over, say, the last 20 years.)


I don't understand what point you're trying to make. And the reasons behind the changes in housing prices are FAR more complicated than you're suggesting.

/if this is a partisan anti-Obama thing then you're an idiot
 
2013-07-24 12:10:02 PM  

MythDragon: FarkedOver: Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in.  Take to the farking streets.  Make them hear you.  You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.


That's funny...I was just thinking about that pic as I read some of the comments here. I scroll down, and there it is.
 
2013-07-24 12:11:20 PM  
All I can say is I feel like a cheap ass after reading what some folks have in debt.  On the other hand, I paid my way through my first degree and the one I actually borrowed for I never used.  Almost wish I could sue the school but as I get older, all I can do is warn others about the pitfalls and traps of paying upfront tuition. Not that I didn't delay the payments a good bit but my first jerb was nowhere near sufficient fresh outta college to pay what they wanted.  The finance company has already changed names/domains 3 times and so forth and they keep raising rates and taking away features like a cable company.  Out of all my choices in life, getting a student loan and attending that school ranks number 3.  I do plan on paying it all back and have been as I have been able just to remind myself to be more careful in the future and to do more fishing, as it tends to keep things in perspective.  With the little amount I do have, I cannot imagine what others must feel like (although it seems most of america has lost its sense of guilt and replaced it with entitlement) with that much debt.

/The Salon "article" as usual, was horseshiat with the blogger contradicting themselves by the end of it.
//Only a Reagan can kill a Reagan...sheesh.
 
2013-07-24 12:12:03 PM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.

All I hear on Fark is study science and engineering. All I hear from new science and engineering grads is that all the jobs are taken by H1B visa holders who work for Starbucks wages.


It used to be that simply having the STEM degree was enough (e.g., the "C's get degree). But after millions of jobs were lost and companies tightened down (back in 2007-08ish), they have become more picky. a 3.0 GPA, and internship experience, and knowledge of X,Y,Z is now often the bare minimum.
 
2013-07-24 12:12:21 PM  
Subby: Why is it a city like Detroit can hide behind Chapter 9 Bankruptcy protection, but not the 37 million Americans drowning in student loan debt?

Because the students exchanged the ability to discharge their loans via bankruptcy in exchange for incredibly favorable loan terms, such as:

1) Guaranteed approval regardless of credit rating
2) Substantially deferred payment
3) Subsidized interest
4) Generous repayment terms
5) Favorable interest rates

If we offered "regular" loans with these terms and conditions - including the inability to discharge via bankruptcy - no other type of loan would ever be taken - that shows just how favorable these terms are.
 
2013-07-24 12:29:18 PM  

what_now: So, if you could discharge your Sallie Mae


Is that what the kids are calling it these days
 
2013-07-24 12:31:40 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Phinn: Voiceofreason01: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.

You must have missed the memo where Obama socialized the student "loan" industry.

Also, the existence of (and ease of obtaining) the "loans" is what increases the price of the thing for which the loan is obtained.  (See, e.g., government-sponsored housing loan programs and house prices over, say, the last 20 years.)

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. And the reasons behind the changes in housing prices are FAR more complicated than you're suggesting.

/if this is a partisan anti-Obama thing then you're an idiot



Of course pricing is complex, but the ease of credit is a factor in the complex system that, ceteris paribus, increases price.

There is no Obama thing.  There is no "partisan" thing when it comes to economics.  It's just reality.  The USA is a corporate tax farm, as I said above, and the nominal government is just the overseer.  There are no "parties" and haven't been for probably 100+ years.  There is only one party -- the Government Party -- and it has internal rivalries and factions, but the self-enslavement ritual formerly known as "elections" are just a form of theater.

Loans drive up the cost of schooling, which increases the need for loans, which drive up ....   See, this is what is known as a "system."

Your plan to force school prices to be set at a cap is the kind of politically-minded band-aid that governments have always used to hide the effects of their earlier scams.  Here's how it works -- Governments cause wild price fluctuations, then respond to the resulting outcry by imposing price controls, which are immediately violated rampantly, creating a black market, or (if successful) immediately cause huge shortages of the thing controlled, to which the government responds with increasingly-drastic, draconian punishments for violating "hoarding" and other price rules.  See, e.g., ancient Rome and Emperor Diocletian's Edict that was punishable by death, all the way through the French Revolution's guillotine for overcharging, to Chiang Kai-Shek's goons executing merchants in the streets, to today.

Yes, your opinion is relatively uninformed.  Try correcting that.
 
2013-07-24 12:35:14 PM  
Excellent question, but here's the answer for the headline ...

A cult is a religion with no political power.
A religion is deemed valid when it achieves political power.

Students? Not so much. This is why the cheetah runs down one kill at a time.
 
2013-07-24 12:36:13 PM  

Mikey1969: Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...


How adorably naive.  Please tell me kind sir, how do I pay for my $19,500/semester med school tuition alone (mind you, and that's pretty cheap as far as medicine)? Get a job? And hope they don't find out because, shocking I know, we aren't aloud to work because of that whole not wanting you to fail out and them losing out on their revenue.  Should I have saved up that much during undergrad? Please tell me a job that requires no degree that pays $60,000 a year.  Should I have let Mommy and Daddy pay for it? Of course not, because people that think the way you do whine about that too.  There's always the military, because it's reasonable to EXPECT someone to risk their life for pointless wars.  Which would be fine if they'd accept me, unfortunately I have a pesky medical condition.  I guess I should just actually "do some real, hard work" and be a plumber, getting off at the same time everyday, being able to enjoy a family, and sit back and watch some TV with a nice beer at the end of the day, and rest up and do something fun on the weekend.  Instead, I'll be in a laid back, cushy job that requires me to work 60 hours a week with travel to several different hospitals, with maybe a Saturday or two a month to enjoy with the friends and family I probably won't have time for.  Let's not forget pointless lawsuits!
 
2013-07-24 12:40:40 PM  
I paid off my student loans. My girlfriend worked her a$$ off to pay hers. My friends have either paid theirs through hard work at jobs they may or may not have liked, or are in the process of paying them off.
No one said when you chose to go to a $35k+ a year school that it was going to be easy to pay them off, but that was the price you were made clearly aware of when you took the loans out. So no, you shouldn't be allowed to cry bankruptcy as soon as you get out of college because you didn't get your dream job and weren't willing to do whatever it took to discharge your responsibility.
I am not willing to, through my taxes, pay the loans of the kids who were too special to have to work hard to pay off their own bloody debt. I know people who worked at crap $10/hr jobs and, though it took upwards of 7 years, they succeeded in paying their debt.

Man up, biatches.
 
2013-07-24 12:42:13 PM  

Phinn: Because we are livestock on a corporate-owned free-range tax farm called "the United States of America."

We are livestock, being farmed for our productivity.  Human livestock is the most valuable livestock there is, but there's one problem -- they won't work as much when they are not compelled to work, through debt and constantly-depreciating currency (which must be used to pay "taxes").  So, taxes and debt are imposed, in order to motivate people to work more.  Debt is the modern whip, to motivate the workers.

That's all "national debt" is -- a mechanism for imposing debt obligations on future generations of livestock, who incidentally can't complain.  (Not that voting matters.  The little suggestion box they put out every 4 years is just for show.)  National debt is the modern replacement for multi-generational debt obligations.  It ensures that the young will work.

College debt is especially useful for our corporate owners, because it targets young people, who work more and earn less, thus are less valuable as a resource for revenue via income taxes.  College loans is a means of imposing an increased level of debt.tax obligations on young people, regardless of how much they earn.

Now that Obama has cut out the middle-man and made young people indebted directly to the national corporate State, the State will (of course) eventually offer other ways that young people can buy their freedom.  Military service, for example, or other forms of direct State-controlled labor.


Moo.
 
2013-07-24 12:47:43 PM  

CWeinerWV: Please tell me kind sir,...


You take out a student loan, of course. You just don't start whining about how you are "drowning in debt" while paying off the loan. My point was that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Maybe you should have paid better attention to my post? I wrote it in English and everything.

I have no problem with people that take out student loans, I have a problem with people who constantly whine about how "evil" these loans are when they are the easiest loans to manage and all they do is bump up your credit rating even if you pay nothing more than the minimum.
 
2013-07-24 12:48:22 PM  

Phinn: Because we are livestock on a corporate-owned free-range tax farm called "the United States of America."

We are livestock, being farmed for our productivity.  Human livestock is the most valuable livestock there is, but there's one problem -- they won't work as much when they are not compelled to work, through debt and constantly-depreciating currency (which must be used to pay "taxes").  So, taxes and debt are imposed, in order to motivate people to work more.  Debt is the modern whip, to motivate the workers.

That's all "national debt" is -- a mechanism for imposing debt obligations on future generations of livestock, who incidentally can't complain.  (Not that voting matters.  The little suggestion box they put out every 4 years is just for show.)  National debt is the modern replacement for multi-generational debt obligations.  It ensures that the young will work.

College debt is especially useful for our corporate owners, because it targets young people, who work more and earn less, thus are less valuable as a resource for revenue via income taxes.  College loans is a means of imposing an increased level of debt.tax obligations on young people, regardless of how much they earn.

Now that Obama has cut out the middle-man and made young people indebted directly to the national corporate State, the State will (of course) eventually offer other ways that young people can buy their freedom.  Military service, for example, or other forms of direct State-controlled labor.


I would definitely go with Reynolds brand. Generic foil tends to be thinner.
 
2013-07-24 12:50:37 PM  

CWeinerWV: Mikey1969: Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...

How adorably naive.  Please tell me kind sir, how do I pay for my $19,500/semester med school tuition alone (mind you, and that's pretty cheap as far as medicine)? Get a job? And hope they don't find out because, shocking I know, we aren't aloud to work because of that whole not wanting you to fail out and them losing out on their revenue.  Should I have saved up that much during undergrad? Please tell me a job that requires no degree that pays $60,000 a year.  Should I have let Mommy and Daddy pay for it? Of course not, because people that think the way you do whine about that too.  There's always the military, because it's reasonable to EXPECT someone to risk their life for pointless wars.  Which would be fine if they'd accept me, unfortunately I have a pesky medical condition.  I guess I should just actually "do some real, hard work" and be a plumber, getting off at the same time everyday, being able to enjoy a family, and sit back and watch some TV with a nice beer at the end of the day, and rest up and do something fun on the weekend.  Instead, I'll be in a laid back, cushy job that requires me to work 60 hours a week with travel to several different hospitals, with maybe a Saturday or two a month to enjoy with the friends and family I probably won't have time for.  Let's not forget pointless lawsuits!


If you are in med school why would you need to find a $60k/year job without a degree?   How did you get INTO med school without a degree?  Could I have taken the MCAT out of high school and expected to be accepted?

Again you're focused on what you perceive as what you can't do, not what you can do.  You can work for a few years, using your undergraduate degree, and save $$.  Are there grants in aid for med students?  Have you applied for ALL of them?  What about the National Health Service Corps?

It appears as if you want someone else to make the sacrifice.  It depends on how badly you want it.
 
2013-07-24 12:53:38 PM  

Gabrielmot: what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.

hahahahahah...

I have a BS in CS. Outside my office, I see seas of cubicles filled with Medical Doctors.

Outside our building, down the street, around the corner, holding a handwritten sign, I see liberal arts graduates begging for change.


Immmmaginaaaationland!
 
2013-07-24 12:57:22 PM  
Phinn:.  The USA is a corporate tax farm...

ffs,  I got trolled didn't I?
 
2013-07-24 12:59:34 PM  

Phinn: Voiceofreason01: Phinn: Voiceofreason01: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.

You must have missed the memo where Obama socialized the student "loan" industry.

Also, the existence of (and ease of obtaining) the "loans" is what increases the price of the thing for which the loan is obtained.  (See, e.g., government-sponsored housing loan programs and house prices over, say, the last 20 years.)

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. And the reasons behind the changes in housing prices are FAR more complicated than you're suggesting.

/if this is a partisan anti-Obama thing then you're an idiot

Of course pricing is complex, but the ease of credit is a factor in the complex system that, ceteris paribus, increases price.

There is no Obama thing.  There is no "partisan" thing when it comes to economics.  It's just reality.  The USA is a corporate tax farm, as I said above, and the nominal government is just the overseer.  There are no "parties" and haven't been for probably 100+ years.  There is only one party -- the Government Party -- and it has internal rivalries and factions, but the self-enslavement ritual formerly known as "elections" are just a form of theater.

Loans drive up the cost of schooling, which increases the need for loans, which drive up ....   See, this is what is known as a "system."

Your plan to force school prices to be set at a cap is the kind of politically-minded band-aid that governments have always used to hide the effects of their earlier scams.  Here's how it works -- Governments cause wild price fluctuations, then respond to the resulting outcry by imposing price controls, which are immediately violated rampantly, creating a black market, or (if successful) immediately cause huge shortages of the thing controlled, to which the government responds with increasingly-drastic, draconian punishments for violating "hoarding" and other price rules.  See, e.g., ancient Rome and Emperor Diocletian's Edict that was punishable by death, all the way through the French Revolution's guillotine for overcharging, to Chiang Kai-Shek's goons executing merchants in the streets, to today.

Yes, your opinion is relatively uninformed.  Try correcting that.


Wait, did you just imply that its possible to horde a college education?

Not arguing, just clarifying.
 
2013-07-24 01:02:20 PM  

CWeinerWV: Mikey1969: Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...

How adorably naive.  Please tell me kind sir, how do I pay for my $19,500/semester med school tuition alone (mind you, and that's pretty cheap as far as medicine)? Get a job? And hope they don't find out because, shocking I know, we aren't aloud to work because of that whole not wanting you to fail out and them losing out on their revenue.  Should I have saved up that much during undergrad? Please tell me a job that requires no degree that pays $60,000 a year.  Should I have let Mommy and Daddy pay for it? Of course not, because people that think the way you do whine about that too.  There's always the military, because it's reasonable to EXPECT someone to risk their life for pointless wars.  Which would be fine if they'd accept me, unfortunately I have a pesky medical condition.  I guess I should just actually "do some real, hard work" and be a plumber, getting off at the same time everyday, being able to enjoy a family, and sit back and watch some TV with a nice beer at the end of the day, and rest up and do something fun on the weekend.  Instead, I'll be in a laid back, cushy job that requires me to work 60 hours a week with travel to several different hospitals, with maybe a Saturday or two a month to enjoy with the friends and family I probably won't have time for.  Let's not forget pointless lawsuits!


So you entered into a loan agreement knowing that you were going to have problems repaying it. Damn those bastards for cornering you!
 
2013-07-24 01:05:20 PM  

RyanAntiHero: I paid off my student loans. My girlfriend worked her a$$ off to pay hers. My friends have either paid theirs through hard work at jobs they may or may not have liked, or are in the process of paying them off.
No one said when you chose to go to a $35k+ a year school that it was going to be easy to pay them off, but that was the price you were made clearly aware of when you took the loans out. So no, you shouldn't be allowed to cry bankruptcy as soon as you get out of college because you didn't get your dream job and weren't willing to do whatever it took to discharge your responsibility.
I am not willing to, through my taxes, pay the loans of the kids who were too special to have to work hard to pay off their own bloody debt. I know people who worked at crap $10/hr jobs and, though it took upwards of 7 years, they succeeded in paying their debt.

Man up, biatches.


I honestly cannot recall being talked to about the impending debt of my student loans. I always knew I would have to pay them off, but I think everyone beginning college expects to have a pretty good job when they get out. The reality is that you get out, work an entry level shiat position within your field that barely covers the cost of living, then IF you move up the ladder you might be able to pay off some of your debt.

Also, with the price of tuition going up yearly,  kids are these days are royally farked.
 
2013-07-24 01:09:45 PM  

WhippingBoy: The answer is simple:

- subsidize tuition in order to reduce the frequency/need for student loans
- allow student loans to be absolved through bankruptcy
- provide other means/ways/mechanisms to promote an educated population

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:

- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.
- require that you maintain a certain GPA, or you revert back to the "old" system

What this will do is:
- ease the way for people who actually plan for their future, and are serious about college
- dissuade people from going to college for the sake of going to college
- dissuade people from racking up massive amounts of debt in order to obtain an obviously useless (in terms of ROI) degree

e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime



This is sensible and well thought out. I anticipate many posts abusing you as I continue to read this thread.
 
2013-07-24 01:11:53 PM  
Bankruptcy protections are not required for student loans.
According the documents that my daughter received regarding her loans:
1) She only has to start paying 6 months after finishing school.
2) Here payments will not exceed 10% of her disposable income (after taxes and typical monthly bills, such as mortgage, rent, utilities, etc.). If unemployed, there are no payments.
3) Loans are forgiven if not fully paid in 20 years.
 
2013-07-24 01:12:31 PM  

Gabrielmot: what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.

hahahahahah...

I have a BS in CS. Outside my office, I see seas of cubicles filled with Medical Doctors.

Outside our building, down the street, around the corner, holding a handwritten sign, I see liberal arts graduates begging for change.


Where do you work where so many MDs are willing to be confined to a cubicle farm?
 
2013-07-24 01:14:02 PM  

The Southern Logic Company: Nana's Vibrator: WhippingBoy:
This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.

Whatever, dude.  You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever.  If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it.  Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle".  Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations.  That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person.  I talk to the engineers!
//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.

I hold a BA in Philosophy and now I work as a software dev.  A CS degree is a waste of time, its more about what you KNOW and what you can DO.

I also write killer documentation that makes you question truth.


I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev.  How did you make the transition to sof dev?  I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Symbolic logic is possibly the greatest cource I took while studying philosophy.  It's the link between algebra and the real world.
 
2013-07-24 01:18:35 PM  
deanis:
I honestly cannot recall being talked to about the impending debt of my student loans. I always knew I would have to pay them off, but I think everyone beginning college expects to have a pretty good job when they get out. The reality is that you get out, work an entry level shiat position within your field that barely covers the cost of living, then IF you move up the ladder you might be able to pay off some of your debt.

Also, with the price of tuition going up yearly,  kids are these days are royally farked.


1. By law, you have to have signed a document spelling out in detail what you owe, including the real interest rate and the total cost of repayment.
2. It sounds like a significant part of the problem is that workers have increasingly little power in the US job market which drives up qualifications required to get a job in the first place and drives down compensation, which is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from student loans.
 
2013-07-24 01:20:15 PM  

FarkedOver: fortheloveofgod: Or, you could not have taken out the loan if you didn't agree with its terms.

Good idea.  I should never have went to college.  WHO CARES that almost every job offer says "4 year degree required."


They SAY that all the time, but I've found it to be rather meaningless.

/ 13 years as an engineer in the semiconductor industry
// college dropout
/// never really much of a problem
 
2013-07-24 01:25:45 PM  

deanis: kids are these days are royally farked.


My advice?

Find a community college with a nursing program.

Tuition is reasonable, pay is reasonable, and you can't outsource nursing to Mexico.
 
2013-07-24 01:27:52 PM  

tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.


this
 
2013-07-24 01:43:46 PM  
Student loans have been around forever. Why is this a problem now? Because cupcake can't pay them off?
 
2013-07-24 01:46:11 PM  
LOL @ drowning because of student loans.

My wife and I are no longer drowning.  We drowned.  We will never own a house.  We will likely never be able to own a car, even a used one.  The chances of me being able to find a traditional job ever again are slim.  We exist on the lamb from our creditors, surviving only by humbly accepting the charitable food and shelter that is offered to us.  We are beggars.  I own only three sets of clothing, a hairbrush, and a toothbrush (and since my teeth and hair are falling out from lack of nutrition, even those things seem excessive).  I only use the internet at the library, and when I do I only post to Fark because I don't want my creditors tracking me down.  I never even use my real name for anything anymore.  That man is dead- he drowned under a pile of debt.

Oddly, none of that is a complaint.  The fact of the matter is that extreme poverty has taught me far more and enriched my life to a much greater degree than college ever did.  It has taught me to shut off my responses to pain and hunger.  It has taught me that my comfort only comes at the cost of someone else's survival.  It has taught me humility and the need to show unconditional love and compassion wherever I go.  It has given me clarity, perspective, and (dare I say it) some degree of wisdom.  I get more out of nothing than the richest man gets out of everything he owns.

And so, I no longer struggle against my poverty.  I accept it as not only the reality of the situation but as a blessing.  I thank God every day for my poverty, and pray that He grants me the strength and wisdom to bear this blessing.  Soon, my wife and I may head for a land where people are even poorer than we are now so that we may give to them and work to enrich their lives rather than our own.  We desire greater poverty in our lives.  It is only when we are free from the material distractions in our lives that we are finally able to see our path through life and what is truly important.

May everyone receive the blessings we have received.

With Endless Love,

Radar
 
2013-07-24 01:49:40 PM  

KFBR392: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.

All I hear on Fark is study science and engineering. All I hear from new science and engineering grads is that all the jobs are taken by H1B visa holders who work for Starbucks wages.

It used to be that simply having the STEM degree was enough (e.g., the "C's get degree). But after millions of jobs were lost and companies tightened down (back in 2007-08ish), they have become more picky. a 3.0 GPA, and internship experience, and knowledge of X,Y,Z is now often the bare minimum.


This.  Get a 3.0 (or serious experience to make up for the fact that you don't have a 3.0.  A couple of my buddies ended up leading clubs, contributing to open-source, etc, etc, which made up for the fact that they had 2.8's), and a couple internships and you're set (3.4/Microsoft + TripAdvisor).  Don't do those things, you're moderately screwed even in the massive sellers market that is top-flight CS right now.

/I should add that the curve was based around a 2.8, so a 3.0 is hard to get, and over half the students in the major will fail and fail hard.
 
2013-07-24 01:50:39 PM  

FarkedOver: Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in.  Take to the farking streets.  Make them hear you.  You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.


They did that and were ridiculed and their actual voices ignored. It was one of the complaints Occupy Wall Street had. Many people, especially here at fark just said they should just get jobs and mocked them for all likely having liberal arts degrees.
 
2013-07-24 01:52:14 PM  

TelemonianAjax: The Southern Logic Company:
I hold a BA in Philosophy and now I work as a software dev.  A CS degree is a waste of time, its more about what you KNOW and what you can DO.

I also write killer documentation that makes you question truth.

I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev.  How did you make the transition to sof dev?  I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Symbolic logic is possibly the greatest cource I took while studying philosophy.  It's the link between algebra and the real world.


Symbolic Logic was an excellent course, I'm glad I fought to get into it.

As for software dev, I got lucky.  I got hired at a start-up that had literally three employees that was then acquired by a slightly bigger company with 15 employees.  I had experience in Java from High School plus I developed some Java apps myself as well in my spare time.  What really made the transition easy was the nature of the business (Point of Sale Software) requires a lot of training on the product anyway so my boss wasn't opposed to me being rusty for a bit.  I had to teach myself MSSQL and C# in the span of two months but a year later I'm now the "Senior dev" and somehow still employed.

/Whatever that means
//Pay is still the same...
 
2013-07-24 02:11:32 PM  

Voiceofreason01: It sounds like a significant part of the problem is that workers have increasingly little power in the US job market which drives up qualifications required to get a job in the first place and drives down compensation, which is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from student loans.


So you're saying that we should regulate businesses in order to force them to hire less qualified candidates, when more qualified candidates are available? I'm pretty liberal, but I can't sign off on actually enforcing such a thing.

Businesses are not responsible for the availability of cheap loans, nor the inflated prices of degrees. The candidates are clearly out there and it's a buyer's market.
 
2013-07-24 02:15:10 PM  

deanis: RyanAntiHero: I paid off my student loans. My girlfriend worked her a$$ off to pay hers. My friends have either paid theirs through hard work at jobs they may or may not have liked, or are in the process of paying them off.
No one said when you chose to go to a $35k+ a year school that it was going to be easy to pay them off, but that was the price you were made clearly aware of when you took the loans out. So no, you shouldn't be allowed to cry bankruptcy as soon as you get out of college because you didn't get your dream job and weren't willing to do whatever it took to discharge your responsibility.
I am not willing to, through my taxes, pay the loans of the kids who were too special to have to work hard to pay off their own bloody debt. I know people who worked at crap $10/hr jobs and, though it took upwards of 7 years, they succeeded in paying their debt.

Man up, biatches.

I honestly cannot recall being talked to about the impending debt of my student loans. I always knew I would have to pay them off, but I think everyone beginning college expects to have a pretty good job when they get out. The reality is that you get out, work an entry level shiat position within your field that barely covers the cost of living, then IF you move up the ladder you might be able to pay off some of your debt.

Also, with the price of tuition going up yearly,  kids are these days are royally farked.


That is exactly the problem.

The snowflakes now expect someone to come to them and tell them what their obligations are instead of taking a modicum of responsibility and figuring things out for themselves.  They signed the farking papers and there are tons of free resources to help them figure things out.

Kind of pathetic actually.
 
2013-07-24 02:18:49 PM  
WhippingBoy:

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:
- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.


Are you seriously saying that people don't do the above before they take out a loan today?
WTF do they do?  Just take out money and hope for the best?
 
2013-07-24 02:26:23 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: WhippingBoy:

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:
- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.

Are you seriously saying that people don't do the above before they take out a loan today?
WTF do they do?  Just take out money and hope for the best?


Seems obvious that people aren't doing this rudimentary investigation considering how many people are complaining about how unfair the system is.
 
2013-07-24 02:35:14 PM  

sethen320: Phinn: Voiceofreason01: Phinn: Voiceofreason01: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.

You must have missed the memo where Obama socialized the student "loan" industry.

Also, the existence of (and ease of obtaining) the "loans" is what increases the price of the thing for which the loan is obtained.  (See, e.g., government-sponsored housing loan programs and house prices over, say, the last 20 years.)

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. And the reasons behind the changes in housing prices are FAR more complicated than you're suggesting.

/if this is a partisan anti-Obama thing then you're an idiot

Of course pricing is complex, but the ease of credit is a factor in the complex system that, ceteris paribus, increases price.

There is no Obama thing.  There is no "partisan" thing when it comes to economics.  It's just reality.  The USA is a corporate tax farm, as I said above, and the nominal government is just the overseer.  There are no "parties" and haven't been for probably 100+ years.  There is only one party -- the Government Party -- and it has internal rivalries and factions, but the self-enslavement ritual formerly known as "elections" are just a form of theater.

Loans drive up the cost of schooling, which increases the need for loans, which drive up ....   See, this is what is known as a "system."

Your plan to force school prices to be set at a cap is the kind of politically-minded band-aid that governments have always used to hide the effects of their earlier scams.  Here's how it works -- Governments cause wild price fluctuations, then respond to the resulting outcry by imposing price controls, which are immediately violated rampantly, creating a black market, or (if successful) immediately cause huge shortages of the thing controlled, to which the government responds with increasingly-drastic, draconian punishments for violating "hoarding" and other price rules.  See, e.g., ancient Rome and Emperor Diocletian's Edict that was punishable by death, all the way through the French Revolution's guillotine for overcharging, to Chiang Kai-Shek's goons executing merchants in the streets, to today.

Yes, your opinion is relatively uninformed.  Try correcting that.

Wait, did you just imply that its possible to horde a college education?

Not arguing, just clarifying.


Education services can't be hoarded like commodities. So, artificial price caps have different economic effects.

First, caps force marginal producers out of business (since they can't compete against their more resilient alternatives), and the ones to fail are usually the smaller ones, thus leading to consolidation of producers into a small number of giants. This has happened in a lot of contexts wherever below-market price-fixing occurs. It virtually killed just about every railroad company, for example.

Second, to survive and cut costs, the next layer of marginal producers experiences a huge increase in its incentive to lie and cheat. In an education context, this means they turn into diploma mills, granting credentials for money, and hiring teachers on the cheap (who thus also have an increased opportunity to fake their credentials), and generally turning education into an empty pantomime or ritual, whose only purpose is to satisfy the preferences of the payer (the US Dept. of Education), rather than satisfy the preferences of the students (since they are increasingly isolated from the paying and oversight process).

The education market can't be improved by force.
 
2013-07-24 02:39:38 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: WhippingBoy:

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:
- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.

Are you seriously saying that people don't do the above before they take out a loan today?
WTF do they do?  Just take out money and hope for the best?


Yeah, pretty much.
 
2013-07-24 02:47:39 PM  
TelemonianAjax:
I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev.  How did you make the transition to sof dev?  I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Symbolic logic is possibly the greatest cource I took while studying philosophy.  It's the link between algebra and the real world.


Predicate calculus: logic in a formal format. For simple example, "If X, then Y." This helps train the mind to look at logical concepts and relationships in a structure that is very portable to source code.

Finite Automata: Another deeper logic course, Turing machines, entity relationships, etc.

Also, find one good design course. Since you have real world experience already you will recognize such a course. It would be one that lays out the larger architecture of systems in elegant patterns that promote quality and maintainability in real-world applications.

In my career, I learned that those are the things that stuck with me from my CS degree course-work. The only thing I lacked was a good design course. All of the professors at my school were career academics and couldn't communicate the idea of practical application and design to students. The logic courses taught my mind how to identify patterns and to identify dependencies between components in any generic system. That's a great start. I wish I had learned the engineering discipline to accompany the "aha" parts while a student.
 
2013-07-24 02:47:57 PM  

Phinn: Second, to survive and cut costs, the next layer of marginal producers experiences a huge increase in its incentive to lie and cheat. In an education context, this means they turn into diploma mills, granting credentials for money, and hiring teachers on the cheap (who thus also have an increased opportunity to fake their credentials), and generally turning education into an empty pantomime or ritual, whose only purpose is to satisfy the preferences of the payer (the US Dept. of Education), rather than satisfy the preferences of the students (since they are increasingly isolated from the paying and oversight process).


Reads nice, but I challenge the premise. State colleges are great alternatives to overpriced private schools. As far as diploma mills, credentials for money, and substandard or fradulent teachers are concerned...that's what accreditation is for.

Accredited schools turning out incapable graduates in a given field? That's why employers have a 90 trial period with any new hire.

If people stop dumping their money - even easily-obtainable, government-backed, low-interest student loans - into those schools... they will either improve or cease to exist.
 
2013-07-24 02:54:17 PM  

TelemonianAjax: I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev. How did you make the transition to sof dev? I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.


Go get a BS in Comp Sci or a BSEng in Comp Eng. Learn actual software design, and the fundamentals of object oriented design. Don't assume that just because you have 'a degree' that you're going to be a good software developer. I have worked with people who made that assumption. None of them lasted more than 2 years, and all of them got cut in the bottom 10% cull we have at the end of every fiscal year.
 
2013-07-24 03:06:48 PM  

WhippingBoy: tenpoundsofcheese: WhippingBoy:

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:
- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.

Are you seriously saying that people don't do the above before they take out a loan today?
WTF do they do?  Just take out money and hope for the best?

Yeah, pretty much.


Kind of sad.
I wonder how much of that is the snowflake syndrome.  They just believe they are special and will have all sorts of jobs and opportunities and raises regardless of their actual education, capabilities and the reality of the Obama economy.
 
2013-07-24 03:13:55 PM  

Lagaidh: TelemonianAjax:
I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev.  How did you make the transition to sof dev?  I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Symbolic logic is possibly the greatest cource I took while studying philosophy.  It's the link between algebra and the real world.

Predicate calculus: logic in a formal format. For simple example, "If X, then Y." This helps train the mind to look at logical concepts and relationships in a structure that is very portable to source code.

Finite Automata: Another deeper logic course, Turing machines, entity relationships, etc.

Also, find one good design course. Since you have real world experience already you will recognize such a course. It would be one that lays out the larger architecture of systems in elegant patterns that promote quality and maintainability in real-world applications.

In my career, I learned that those are the things that stuck with me from my CS degree course-work. The only thing I lacked was a good design course. All of the professors at my school were career academics and couldn't communicate the idea of practical application and design to students. The logic courses taught my mind how to identify patterns and to identify dependencies between components in any generic system. That's a great start. I wish I had learned the engineering discipline to accompany the "aha" parts while a student.


I come from a long line of Engineers, so I was quite disappointed. I do now wish that I had done engineering alongside my more insightful studies.
 
2013-07-24 03:25:58 PM  

Pangea: Phinn: Second, to survive and cut costs, the next layer of marginal producers experiences a huge increase in its incentive to lie and cheat. In an education context, this means they turn into diploma mills, granting credentials for money, and hiring teachers on the cheap (who thus also have an increased opportunity to fake their credentials), and generally turning education into an empty pantomime or ritual, whose only purpose is to satisfy the preferences of the payer (the US Dept. of Education), rather than satisfy the preferences of the students (since they are increasingly isolated from the paying and oversight process).

Reads nice, but I challenge the premise. State colleges are great alternatives to overpriced private schools. As far as diploma mills, credentials for money, and substandard or fradulent teachers are concerned...that's what accreditation is for.

Accredited schools turning out incapable graduates in a given field? That's why employers have a 90 trial period with any new hire.

If people stop dumping their money - even easily-obtainable, government-backed, low-interest student loans - into those schools... they will either improve or cease to exist.


And if people stopped over-eating, smoking, abusing drugs and failing to exercise, then the money spent on health care would drop by 75%.

But they won't.

It's irrational to examine economic systems according to what you believe people ought to do. People act according to their own subjective scales of perceived costs and benefits.

(That's why they continue to vote, for example, despite the irrefutable evidence and logic that shows that a State-run market of any kind is a social cancer. Which, of course, is why Obama felt the need to cheerlead for Statism at a recent college graduation speech, imploring young people to ignore the critics of Statism. I mean, look at what the heavy hand of statist economic control did for Detroit, or Somalia, or East Europe.)

Accreditation won't fix that effect. It is merely another form of political cover for an inexorable decline in quality. It's the fox guarding the henhouse. Accreditation standards are controlled by the larger, more powerful school groups, who use it to advance the consolidation effect I mentioned earlier. Plus, have you not heard of regulatory capture?

As far as State schools go, they were in real trouble before the student loan racket was ramped up, giving them a huge subsidy. Now that the USDOE has been tasked with the job of being the sinkhole of bad education debt, the loans will continue apace, for now. Even the easy money system it replaced was about to collapse under the weight of skyrocketing prices and decreasing economic value of a subsidized educational credential.
 
2013-07-24 04:00:41 PM  
Because they don't all live in the same city?
 
2013-07-24 04:11:21 PM  
Starting salaries have increased roughly 2× since the 80s, while college tuition has increased about 8×. Adjusting for inflation, then, college now costs about 4 times what it did 30 years ago. So my kids will pay 4× what I paid to go to the exact same college as me.

Did it become four times more expensive to educate a college graduate in those years? Of course not. Did the federal government force banks and other private sources out of the student funding game during that time? Of course. And colleges know that since the US government will fund most of the cost of each student's tuition, they can raise the price to anything they want.

You want the student loan catastrophe to change? Then get the feds out of the student loan business and give it back to the private enterprises. And get the universities to lower their damn inflated tuition costs.
 
2013-07-24 04:25:16 PM  

tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.


sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-07-24 04:27:25 PM  

heili skrimsli: TelemonianAjax: I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev. How did you make the transition to sof dev? I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Go get a BS in Comp Sci or a BSEng in Comp Eng. Learn actual software design (design patterns ala "Gang of 4"), and the fundamentals of object oriented design. Don't assume that just because you have 'a degree' that you're going to be a good software developer. I have worked with people who made that assumption. None of them lasted more than 2 years, and all of them got cut in the bottom 10% cull we have at the end of every fiscal year.


This, that, these.   Especially the bolded.

Take the really good design course (If your school doesn't have one, transfer.  Here's mine, just for comparison: http://www.umich.edu/~eecs381/.  Google makes taking this course a fairly hard requirement for hiring you fresh out of college from UofM).  Then spend a couple semesters applying all that stuff to courses where the entire semester is either a single project or a series of multi-week group projects.  Combine that with some extracurricular work applying the stuff you learned, and a couple of paid internships, and you'll be doing awesome.

Honestly, the degree isn't terribly necessary, it's just a sign that you have:
* A certain default level of knowledge
* Access to school resources, networking, national employers, etc
* A couple years of experience working with and designing mid-sized projects in small groups.
 
2013-07-24 04:44:56 PM  
Detroit never took any useless papers?
 
2013-07-24 04:47:45 PM  

meyerkev: heili skrimsli: TelemonianAjax: I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev. How did you make the transition to sof dev? I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Go get a BS in Comp Sci or a BSEng in Comp Eng. Learn actual software design (design patterns ala "Gang of 4"), and the fundamentals of object oriented design. Don't assume that just because you have 'a degree' that you're going to be a good software developer. I have worked with people who made that assumption. None of them lasted more than 2 years, and all of them got cut in the bottom 10% cull we have at the end of every fiscal year.

This, that, these.   Especially the bolded.

Take the really good design course (If your school doesn't have one, transfer.  Here's mine, just for comparison: http://www.umich.edu/~eecs381/.  Google makes taking this course a fairly hard requirement for hiring you fresh out of college from UofM).  Then spend a couple semesters applying all that stuff to courses where the entire semester is either a single project or a series of multi-week group projects.  Combine that with some extracurricular work applying the stuff you learned, and a couple of paid internships, and you'll be doing awesome.

Honestly, the degree isn't terribly necessary, it's just a sign that you have:
* A certain default level of knowledge
* Access to school resources, networking, national employers, etc
* A couple years of experience working with and designing mid-sized projects in small groups.


i think the bolded part applies to every degree/profession.

i'm a lawyer. fresh law grads know absolutely nothing about the practice of law.  it's laughable.  they might know stuff about 'the law'.  but that's like saying going into surgery and saying you know the symptoms of a heart attack
 
2013-07-24 05:20:43 PM  

Pangea: Voiceofreason01: It sounds like a significant part of the problem is that workers have increasingly little power in the US job market which drives up qualifications required to get a job in the first place and drives down compensation, which is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from student loans.

So you're saying that we should regulate businesses in order to force them to hire less qualified candidates, when more qualified candidates are available? I'm pretty liberal, but I can't sign off on actually enforcing such a thing.

Businesses are not responsible for the availability of cheap loans, nor the inflated prices of degrees. The candidates are clearly out there and it's a buyer's market.


If I were king of the world I'd do two things. First: Strengthen workers rights laws and let workers organize which should help to increase starting wages and bring wages and experience/education more in line with each other and second: free tuition at public universities.
 
2013-07-24 05:26:59 PM  

verbaltoxin: Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.


Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.
 
2013-07-24 05:37:41 PM  

stewbert: Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.


http://learnpythonthehardway.org/

/You might also think about picking up a copy of "programming for dummies" or an introduction to programming textbook since they'll introduce you to some common logical structures, concepts and terminology used in programming.
 
2013-07-24 05:44:54 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Pangea: Voiceofreason01: It sounds like a significant part of the problem is that workers have increasingly little power in the US job market which drives up qualifications required to get a job in the first place and drives down compensation, which is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from student loans.

So you're saying that we should regulate businesses in order to force them to hire less qualified candidates, when more qualified candidates are available? I'm pretty liberal, but I can't sign off on actually enforcing such a thing.

Businesses are not responsible for the availability of cheap loans, nor the inflated prices of degrees. The candidates are clearly out there and it's a buyer's market.

If I were king of the world I'd do two things. First: Strengthen workers rights laws and let workers organize which should help to increase starting wages and bring wages and experience/education more in line with each other and second: free tuition at public universities.


Free?

Oh, thank you, gracious and benevolent father of the nation and fountain of all goodness, especially for the part where you force one subset of your loyal subjects to pay for the crap consumed by another subset.

Paying for "free" stuff with other people's money is what makes you so farking generous.
 
2013-07-24 05:48:50 PM  
Phinn:Free?

Oh, thank you, gracious and benevolent father of the nation and fountain of all goodness, especially for the part where you force one subset of your loyal subjects to pay for the crap consumed by another subset.

Paying for "free" stuff with other people's money is what makes you so farking generous.


A well educated society benefits the economy by creating a well educated workforce and helps to reduce poverty and crime. Why do you hate America?
 
2013-07-24 06:27:21 PM  

stewbert: verbaltoxin: Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.

Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.


So I've written a bunch of really, really long, somewhat repetitive comments on (kinda) how to get started with programming.  Getting the links into one spot (and in reverse order from which I wrote them):

http://www.fark.com/comments/7726281/83936678#c83936678 (and there's a language slapfight further down in the thread that you might find interesting)
http://www.fark.com/comments/7621995/82827357#c82827357
http://www.fark.com/comments/7618752/82791338#c82791338
http://www.fark.com/comments/7476988/81185221#c81185221

The TL/DR:
0) Programming languages aren't important, programming concepts (Data structure, Big-O, algorithms, software architecture) are.  You want to know why the guys at Google are getting paid way more than you, it's because they know concepts and can pick up 90% of most languages in a matter of hours or days.

1) Start with C. 2 reasons.  Everything is built on C/C++ (however indirectly) and C is this really dead-dog simple language, so you're dealing with ints and functions and not dealing with all the crazy stuff that the last 30 years have added.  Play around with some simple programs (like "Calculate the nth Fibonacci number") unless you get the concepts of variables and functions, etc.  Also, the canonical book, Kernigan and Ritchie, is really cheap and you should just buy it.

If step 1 took more than 2 weeks (with the possible exception of crazier pointer crap, because there are very, very few people who understand how to use pointers well), quit now.

2) Learn a useful language.
* If you need to hook into some weird library, learn THAT language.
* If you need high-scale performance, learn C++.
* If you're on Windows and can get .NET onto work computers, learn C#.
* If you don't mind lower performance in exchange for high programmer productivity, learn Perl if you're crazy, Ruby if you're not crazy, but really like things that Perl does, and Python otherwise.
* If you need a UI, either make a web service and learn HTML/CSS/Javascript plus [web backend of your choosing that isn't PHP] or go look up other people.   I'm really not the person to ask.

3) Learn to actually architect your programs (My old class is here:http://www.umich.edu/~eecs381/ ).  Pick up Gang Of 4 at some point and learn design patterns.  The best way to do this is to just write lots of code.

However, since you'll probably want a shortcut:
* ALWAYS ask yourself: "What would happen if this value changed?"  If the answer isn't "Change this config file or this easy-to-find value that's at one spot in the code," you've screwed up.
* ALWAYS ask yourself: "What would happen if the correct code to do X changed?"  If the answer isn't "Rewrite this one well-named, easy-to-find function", you've screwed up.
* ALWAYS ask yourself: "What are the top N features that I would need to add and how much code rewriting (versus extending) would I need to do?"  If the answer isn't "As little rewriting as possible", you've screwed up.
(And once you understand inheritance and OOP):
* ALWAYS be asking: Does my class structure make sense and does each class need the minimal amount of state from other classes as possible?  If the answer isn't Yes, you've screwed up.
 
2013-07-24 06:42:34 PM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


Why have a fleecing cartel in place at all? In most other developed countries they *invest* in their intelligent youth to make attending university a non-financial issue -- just pass the tests to get it and the state has a interest in promoting talent from the inside.

In our country, we eat our young by forcing the average student in financial slavery so that someone can profit off them.
 
2013-07-24 06:42:48 PM  

meyerkev: stewbert: verbaltoxin: Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.

Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.

So I've written a bunch of really, really long, somewhat repetitive comments on (kinda) how to get started with programming.  Getting the links into one spot (and in reverse order from which I wrote them):

http://www.fark.com/comments/7726281/83936678#c83936678 (and there's a language slapfight further down in the thread that you might find interesting)
http://www.fark.com/comments/7621995/82827357#c82827357
http://www.fark.com/comments/7618752/82791338#c82791338
http://www.fark.com/comments/7476988/81185221#c81185221

The TL/DR:
0) Programming languages aren't important, programming concepts (Data structure, Big-O, algorithms, software architecture) are.  You want to know why the guys at Google are getting paid way more than you, it's because they know concepts and can pick up 90% of most languages in a matter of hours or days.

1) Start with C. 2 reasons.  Everything is built on C/C++ (however indirectly) and C is this really dead-dog simple language, so you're dealing with ints and functions and not dealing with all the crazy stuff that the last 30 years have added.  Play around with some simple programs (like "Calculate the nth Fibonacci number") unless you get the concepts of variables and functions, etc.  Also, the canonical book, Kernigan and Ritchie, is really cheap and you should just buy it.

If step 1 took more than 2 weeks (with the poss ...


Yep. Pretty much this.

Also, if your boss asks you to code something in Java (or whatever), never, ever say "but I don't know Java". Learn it.
 
2013-07-24 08:05:40 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Phinn:Free?

Oh, thank you, gracious and benevolent father of the nation and fountain of all goodness, especially for the part where you force one subset of your loyal subjects to pay for the crap consumed by another subset.

Paying for "free" stuff with other people's money is what makes you so farking generous.

A well educated society benefits the economy by creating a well educated workforce and helps to reduce poverty and crime. Why do you hate America?


Yeah, that is all so flowery and sweet-smelling that I'm almost ready to believe it.

Then I see the abominable youth unemoyment rate, which is masking an even worse unemoyment situation because young people are always undercounted, and (more to the point) because state-issued loans cause a displacement of young people into pointless schooling that will not yield them a net economic gain, after accounting for the expense itself, the interest they'll pay, and their loss of time in the workforce.

Your entire worldview sucks. Largely due to a lack of rationality and systems-oriented thinking, and an excessive willingness to regurgitate flowery platitudes.
 
2013-07-24 08:46:19 PM  

WhippingBoy: meyerkev: stewbert: verbaltoxin: Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.

Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.

So I've written a bunch of really, really long, somewhat repetitive comments on (kinda) how to get started with programming.  Getting the links into one spot (and in reverse order from which I wrote them):

http://www.fark.com/comments/7726281/83936678#c83936678 (and there's a language slapfight further down in the thread that you might find interesting)
http://www.fark.com/comments/7621995/82827357#c82827357
http://www.fark.com/comments/7618752/82791338#c82791338
http://www.fark.com/comments/7476988/81185221#c81185221

The TL/DR:
0) Programming languages aren't important, programming concepts (Data structure, Big-O, algorithms, software architecture) are.  You want to know why the guys at Google are getting paid way more than you, it's because they know concepts and can pick up 90% of most languages in a matter of hours or days.

1) Start with C. 2 reasons.  Everything is built on C/C++ (however indirectly) and C is this really dead-dog simple language, so you're dealing with ints and functions and not dealing with all the crazy stuff that the last 30 years have added.  Play around with some simple programs (like "Calculate the nth Fibonacci number") unless you get the concepts of variables and functions, etc.  Also, the canonical book, Kernigan and Ritchie, is really cheap and you should just buy it.

If step 1 took more than 2 weeks (with the poss ...

Yep. Pretty much this.

Also, if your boss asks you to code something in Java (or whatever), never, ever say "but I don't know Java". Learn it.


Lots of people learn to bang out syntactically correct code, but have no farking clue why or how it works.

If you want to get into software development for real, you learn design and learn it good. A solid basis in design and a C or C++ language means that when your boss wants you to do something in another language you can answer as WhippingBoy says and learn the particulars of the language to use it.

It's kind of like cabinet making. Learn to design cabinets first. Worry about the tools second. Otherwise you're never going to be more than 'that guy who can use a drill press.'
 
2013-07-25 03:14:57 AM  
Hell no, the taxpayers aren't paying for your extended childhood we get soaked enough. No one held a gun to your head when you signed your name to a loan for a french art history major that employs a single person in the entire world.

Screw you student loan fools, welcome to adulthood where you get to pay for your bad decisions.
 
2013-07-25 07:38:07 AM  

abiigdog: Hell no, the taxpayers aren't paying for your extended childhood we get soaked enough. No one held a gun to your head when you signed your name to a loan for a french art history major that employs a single person in the entire world.

Screw you student loan fools, welcome to adulthood where you get to pay for your bad decisions.


I'm all in favor of the "pay your own way" ethos, but the federal government doesn't give two shiats about our feelings on the matter.

See, these loans (which in most cases will turn out to be de facto grants, as to the uncollectible parts) issued by the US Ed Dept. are an excellent way of getting BRAND NEW VOTERS hooked on that sweet, sweet government easy money. Turning off this particular subsidy spigot means they'd have to get a job and (even worse) lose access to a high concentration of collegiate pussy and/or cock.

So, the politician who offers these 18-22 year-olds the biggest, sweetest pot of other people's money will continue to win elections.

Even more importantly, however, the State will use these subsidies to buy the life-long loyalty of college kids.

Once the government corrupts these empty-headed, enthusiastic fools in their very first voting cycle, it's easier to keep them in the thrall of the statist mindset.

That's the real racket here.
 
2013-07-25 11:11:34 AM  

heili skrimsli: WhippingBoy: meyerkev: stewbert: verbaltoxin: Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.

Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.


Thanks for the tips, much appreciated.
 
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