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(Salon)   Why is it a city like Detroit can hide behind Chapter 9 Bankruptcy protection, but not the 37 million Americans drowning in student loan debt?   (salon.com) divider line 225
    More: Interesting, Americans, Detroit, collective investment scheme, sticker price  
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5390 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jul 2013 at 9:46 AM (52 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-24 02:47:39 PM
TelemonianAjax:
I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev.  How did you make the transition to sof dev?  I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Symbolic logic is possibly the greatest cource I took while studying philosophy.  It's the link between algebra and the real world.


Predicate calculus: logic in a formal format. For simple example, "If X, then Y." This helps train the mind to look at logical concepts and relationships in a structure that is very portable to source code.

Finite Automata: Another deeper logic course, Turing machines, entity relationships, etc.

Also, find one good design course. Since you have real world experience already you will recognize such a course. It would be one that lays out the larger architecture of systems in elegant patterns that promote quality and maintainability in real-world applications.

In my career, I learned that those are the things that stuck with me from my CS degree course-work. The only thing I lacked was a good design course. All of the professors at my school were career academics and couldn't communicate the idea of practical application and design to students. The logic courses taught my mind how to identify patterns and to identify dependencies between components in any generic system. That's a great start. I wish I had learned the engineering discipline to accompany the "aha" parts while a student.
 
2013-07-24 02:47:57 PM

Phinn: Second, to survive and cut costs, the next layer of marginal producers experiences a huge increase in its incentive to lie and cheat. In an education context, this means they turn into diploma mills, granting credentials for money, and hiring teachers on the cheap (who thus also have an increased opportunity to fake their credentials), and generally turning education into an empty pantomime or ritual, whose only purpose is to satisfy the preferences of the payer (the US Dept. of Education), rather than satisfy the preferences of the students (since they are increasingly isolated from the paying and oversight process).


Reads nice, but I challenge the premise. State colleges are great alternatives to overpriced private schools. As far as diploma mills, credentials for money, and substandard or fradulent teachers are concerned...that's what accreditation is for.

Accredited schools turning out incapable graduates in a given field? That's why employers have a 90 trial period with any new hire.

If people stop dumping their money - even easily-obtainable, government-backed, low-interest student loans - into those schools... they will either improve or cease to exist.
 
2013-07-24 02:54:17 PM

TelemonianAjax: I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev. How did you make the transition to sof dev? I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.


Go get a BS in Comp Sci or a BSEng in Comp Eng. Learn actual software design, and the fundamentals of object oriented design. Don't assume that just because you have 'a degree' that you're going to be a good software developer. I have worked with people who made that assumption. None of them lasted more than 2 years, and all of them got cut in the bottom 10% cull we have at the end of every fiscal year.
 
2013-07-24 03:06:48 PM

WhippingBoy: tenpoundsofcheese: WhippingBoy:

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:
- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.

Are you seriously saying that people don't do the above before they take out a loan today?
WTF do they do?  Just take out money and hope for the best?

Yeah, pretty much.


Kind of sad.
I wonder how much of that is the snowflake syndrome.  They just believe they are special and will have all sorts of jobs and opportunities and raises regardless of their actual education, capabilities and the reality of the Obama economy.
 
2013-07-24 03:13:55 PM

Lagaidh: TelemonianAjax:
I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev.  How did you make the transition to sof dev?  I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Symbolic logic is possibly the greatest cource I took while studying philosophy.  It's the link between algebra and the real world.

Predicate calculus: logic in a formal format. For simple example, "If X, then Y." This helps train the mind to look at logical concepts and relationships in a structure that is very portable to source code.

Finite Automata: Another deeper logic course, Turing machines, entity relationships, etc.

Also, find one good design course. Since you have real world experience already you will recognize such a course. It would be one that lays out the larger architecture of systems in elegant patterns that promote quality and maintainability in real-world applications.

In my career, I learned that those are the things that stuck with me from my CS degree course-work. The only thing I lacked was a good design course. All of the professors at my school were career academics and couldn't communicate the idea of practical application and design to students. The logic courses taught my mind how to identify patterns and to identify dependencies between components in any generic system. That's a great start. I wish I had learned the engineering discipline to accompany the "aha" parts while a student.


I come from a long line of Engineers, so I was quite disappointed. I do now wish that I had done engineering alongside my more insightful studies.
 
2013-07-24 03:25:58 PM

Pangea: Phinn: Second, to survive and cut costs, the next layer of marginal producers experiences a huge increase in its incentive to lie and cheat. In an education context, this means they turn into diploma mills, granting credentials for money, and hiring teachers on the cheap (who thus also have an increased opportunity to fake their credentials), and generally turning education into an empty pantomime or ritual, whose only purpose is to satisfy the preferences of the payer (the US Dept. of Education), rather than satisfy the preferences of the students (since they are increasingly isolated from the paying and oversight process).

Reads nice, but I challenge the premise. State colleges are great alternatives to overpriced private schools. As far as diploma mills, credentials for money, and substandard or fradulent teachers are concerned...that's what accreditation is for.

Accredited schools turning out incapable graduates in a given field? That's why employers have a 90 trial period with any new hire.

If people stop dumping their money - even easily-obtainable, government-backed, low-interest student loans - into those schools... they will either improve or cease to exist.


And if people stopped over-eating, smoking, abusing drugs and failing to exercise, then the money spent on health care would drop by 75%.

But they won't.

It's irrational to examine economic systems according to what you believe people ought to do. People act according to their own subjective scales of perceived costs and benefits.

(That's why they continue to vote, for example, despite the irrefutable evidence and logic that shows that a State-run market of any kind is a social cancer. Which, of course, is why Obama felt the need to cheerlead for Statism at a recent college graduation speech, imploring young people to ignore the critics of Statism. I mean, look at what the heavy hand of statist economic control did for Detroit, or Somalia, or East Europe.)

Accreditation won't fix that effect. It is merely another form of political cover for an inexorable decline in quality. It's the fox guarding the henhouse. Accreditation standards are controlled by the larger, more powerful school groups, who use it to advance the consolidation effect I mentioned earlier. Plus, have you not heard of regulatory capture?

As far as State schools go, they were in real trouble before the student loan racket was ramped up, giving them a huge subsidy. Now that the USDOE has been tasked with the job of being the sinkhole of bad education debt, the loans will continue apace, for now. Even the easy money system it replaced was about to collapse under the weight of skyrocketing prices and decreasing economic value of a subsidized educational credential.
 
2013-07-24 04:00:41 PM
Because they don't all live in the same city?
 
2013-07-24 04:11:21 PM
Starting salaries have increased roughly 2× since the 80s, while college tuition has increased about 8×. Adjusting for inflation, then, college now costs about 4 times what it did 30 years ago. So my kids will pay 4× what I paid to go to the exact same college as me.

Did it become four times more expensive to educate a college graduate in those years? Of course not. Did the federal government force banks and other private sources out of the student funding game during that time? Of course. And colleges know that since the US government will fund most of the cost of each student's tuition, they can raise the price to anything they want.

You want the student loan catastrophe to change? Then get the feds out of the student loan business and give it back to the private enterprises. And get the universities to lower their damn inflated tuition costs.
 
2013-07-24 04:25:16 PM

tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.


sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-07-24 04:27:25 PM

heili skrimsli: TelemonianAjax: I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev. How did you make the transition to sof dev? I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Go get a BS in Comp Sci or a BSEng in Comp Eng. Learn actual software design (design patterns ala "Gang of 4"), and the fundamentals of object oriented design. Don't assume that just because you have 'a degree' that you're going to be a good software developer. I have worked with people who made that assumption. None of them lasted more than 2 years, and all of them got cut in the bottom 10% cull we have at the end of every fiscal year.


This, that, these.   Especially the bolded.

Take the really good design course (If your school doesn't have one, transfer.  Here's mine, just for comparison: http://www.umich.edu/~eecs381/.  Google makes taking this course a fairly hard requirement for hiring you fresh out of college from UofM).  Then spend a couple semesters applying all that stuff to courses where the entire semester is either a single project or a series of multi-week group projects.  Combine that with some extracurricular work applying the stuff you learned, and a couple of paid internships, and you'll be doing awesome.

Honestly, the degree isn't terribly necessary, it's just a sign that you have:
* A certain default level of knowledge
* Access to school resources, networking, national employers, etc
* A couple years of experience working with and designing mid-sized projects in small groups.
 
2013-07-24 04:44:56 PM
Detroit never took any useless papers?
 
2013-07-24 04:47:45 PM

meyerkev: heili skrimsli: TelemonianAjax: I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev. How did you make the transition to sof dev? I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Go get a BS in Comp Sci or a BSEng in Comp Eng. Learn actual software design (design patterns ala "Gang of 4"), and the fundamentals of object oriented design. Don't assume that just because you have 'a degree' that you're going to be a good software developer. I have worked with people who made that assumption. None of them lasted more than 2 years, and all of them got cut in the bottom 10% cull we have at the end of every fiscal year.

This, that, these.   Especially the bolded.

Take the really good design course (If your school doesn't have one, transfer.  Here's mine, just for comparison: http://www.umich.edu/~eecs381/.  Google makes taking this course a fairly hard requirement for hiring you fresh out of college from UofM).  Then spend a couple semesters applying all that stuff to courses where the entire semester is either a single project or a series of multi-week group projects.  Combine that with some extracurricular work applying the stuff you learned, and a couple of paid internships, and you'll be doing awesome.

Honestly, the degree isn't terribly necessary, it's just a sign that you have:
* A certain default level of knowledge
* Access to school resources, networking, national employers, etc
* A couple years of experience working with and designing mid-sized projects in small groups.


i think the bolded part applies to every degree/profession.

i'm a lawyer. fresh law grads know absolutely nothing about the practice of law.  it's laughable.  they might know stuff about 'the law'.  but that's like saying going into surgery and saying you know the symptoms of a heart attack
 
2013-07-24 05:20:43 PM

Pangea: Voiceofreason01: It sounds like a significant part of the problem is that workers have increasingly little power in the US job market which drives up qualifications required to get a job in the first place and drives down compensation, which is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from student loans.

So you're saying that we should regulate businesses in order to force them to hire less qualified candidates, when more qualified candidates are available? I'm pretty liberal, but I can't sign off on actually enforcing such a thing.

Businesses are not responsible for the availability of cheap loans, nor the inflated prices of degrees. The candidates are clearly out there and it's a buyer's market.


If I were king of the world I'd do two things. First: Strengthen workers rights laws and let workers organize which should help to increase starting wages and bring wages and experience/education more in line with each other and second: free tuition at public universities.
 
2013-07-24 05:26:59 PM

verbaltoxin: Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.


Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.
 
2013-07-24 05:37:41 PM

stewbert: Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.


http://learnpythonthehardway.org/

/You might also think about picking up a copy of "programming for dummies" or an introduction to programming textbook since they'll introduce you to some common logical structures, concepts and terminology used in programming.
 
2013-07-24 05:44:54 PM

Voiceofreason01: Pangea: Voiceofreason01: It sounds like a significant part of the problem is that workers have increasingly little power in the US job market which drives up qualifications required to get a job in the first place and drives down compensation, which is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from student loans.

So you're saying that we should regulate businesses in order to force them to hire less qualified candidates, when more qualified candidates are available? I'm pretty liberal, but I can't sign off on actually enforcing such a thing.

Businesses are not responsible for the availability of cheap loans, nor the inflated prices of degrees. The candidates are clearly out there and it's a buyer's market.

If I were king of the world I'd do two things. First: Strengthen workers rights laws and let workers organize which should help to increase starting wages and bring wages and experience/education more in line with each other and second: free tuition at public universities.


Free?

Oh, thank you, gracious and benevolent father of the nation and fountain of all goodness, especially for the part where you force one subset of your loyal subjects to pay for the crap consumed by another subset.

Paying for "free" stuff with other people's money is what makes you so farking generous.
 
2013-07-24 05:48:50 PM
Phinn:Free?

Oh, thank you, gracious and benevolent father of the nation and fountain of all goodness, especially for the part where you force one subset of your loyal subjects to pay for the crap consumed by another subset.

Paying for "free" stuff with other people's money is what makes you so farking generous.


A well educated society benefits the economy by creating a well educated workforce and helps to reduce poverty and crime. Why do you hate America?
 
2013-07-24 06:27:21 PM

stewbert: verbaltoxin: Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.

Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.


So I've written a bunch of really, really long, somewhat repetitive comments on (kinda) how to get started with programming.  Getting the links into one spot (and in reverse order from which I wrote them):

http://www.fark.com/comments/7726281/83936678#c83936678 (and there's a language slapfight further down in the thread that you might find interesting)
http://www.fark.com/comments/7621995/82827357#c82827357
http://www.fark.com/comments/7618752/82791338#c82791338
http://www.fark.com/comments/7476988/81185221#c81185221

The TL/DR:
0) Programming languages aren't important, programming concepts (Data structure, Big-O, algorithms, software architecture) are.  You want to know why the guys at Google are getting paid way more than you, it's because they know concepts and can pick up 90% of most languages in a matter of hours or days.

1) Start with C. 2 reasons.  Everything is built on C/C++ (however indirectly) and C is this really dead-dog simple language, so you're dealing with ints and functions and not dealing with all the crazy stuff that the last 30 years have added.  Play around with some simple programs (like "Calculate the nth Fibonacci number") unless you get the concepts of variables and functions, etc.  Also, the canonical book, Kernigan and Ritchie, is really cheap and you should just buy it.

If step 1 took more than 2 weeks (with the possible exception of crazier pointer crap, because there are very, very few people who understand how to use pointers well), quit now.

2) Learn a useful language.
* If you need to hook into some weird library, learn THAT language.
* If you need high-scale performance, learn C++.
* If you're on Windows and can get .NET onto work computers, learn C#.
* If you don't mind lower performance in exchange for high programmer productivity, learn Perl if you're crazy, Ruby if you're not crazy, but really like things that Perl does, and Python otherwise.
* If you need a UI, either make a web service and learn HTML/CSS/Javascript plus [web backend of your choosing that isn't PHP] or go look up other people.   I'm really not the person to ask.

3) Learn to actually architect your programs (My old class is here:http://www.umich.edu/~eecs381/ ).  Pick up Gang Of 4 at some point and learn design patterns.  The best way to do this is to just write lots of code.

However, since you'll probably want a shortcut:
* ALWAYS ask yourself: "What would happen if this value changed?"  If the answer isn't "Change this config file or this easy-to-find value that's at one spot in the code," you've screwed up.
* ALWAYS ask yourself: "What would happen if the correct code to do X changed?"  If the answer isn't "Rewrite this one well-named, easy-to-find function", you've screwed up.
* ALWAYS ask yourself: "What are the top N features that I would need to add and how much code rewriting (versus extending) would I need to do?"  If the answer isn't "As little rewriting as possible", you've screwed up.
(And once you understand inheritance and OOP):
* ALWAYS be asking: Does my class structure make sense and does each class need the minimal amount of state from other classes as possible?  If the answer isn't Yes, you've screwed up.
 
2013-07-24 06:42:34 PM

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


Why have a fleecing cartel in place at all? In most other developed countries they *invest* in their intelligent youth to make attending university a non-financial issue -- just pass the tests to get it and the state has a interest in promoting talent from the inside.

In our country, we eat our young by forcing the average student in financial slavery so that someone can profit off them.
 
2013-07-24 06:42:48 PM

meyerkev: stewbert: verbaltoxin: Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.

Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.

So I've written a bunch of really, really long, somewhat repetitive comments on (kinda) how to get started with programming.  Getting the links into one spot (and in reverse order from which I wrote them):

http://www.fark.com/comments/7726281/83936678#c83936678 (and there's a language slapfight further down in the thread that you might find interesting)
http://www.fark.com/comments/7621995/82827357#c82827357
http://www.fark.com/comments/7618752/82791338#c82791338
http://www.fark.com/comments/7476988/81185221#c81185221

The TL/DR:
0) Programming languages aren't important, programming concepts (Data structure, Big-O, algorithms, software architecture) are.  You want to know why the guys at Google are getting paid way more than you, it's because they know concepts and can pick up 90% of most languages in a matter of hours or days.

1) Start with C. 2 reasons.  Everything is built on C/C++ (however indirectly) and C is this really dead-dog simple language, so you're dealing with ints and functions and not dealing with all the crazy stuff that the last 30 years have added.  Play around with some simple programs (like "Calculate the nth Fibonacci number") unless you get the concepts of variables and functions, etc.  Also, the canonical book, Kernigan and Ritchie, is really cheap and you should just buy it.

If step 1 took more than 2 weeks (with the poss ...


Yep. Pretty much this.

Also, if your boss asks you to code something in Java (or whatever), never, ever say "but I don't know Java". Learn it.
 
2013-07-24 08:05:40 PM

Voiceofreason01: Phinn:Free?

Oh, thank you, gracious and benevolent father of the nation and fountain of all goodness, especially for the part where you force one subset of your loyal subjects to pay for the crap consumed by another subset.

Paying for "free" stuff with other people's money is what makes you so farking generous.

A well educated society benefits the economy by creating a well educated workforce and helps to reduce poverty and crime. Why do you hate America?


Yeah, that is all so flowery and sweet-smelling that I'm almost ready to believe it.

Then I see the abominable youth unemoyment rate, which is masking an even worse unemoyment situation because young people are always undercounted, and (more to the point) because state-issued loans cause a displacement of young people into pointless schooling that will not yield them a net economic gain, after accounting for the expense itself, the interest they'll pay, and their loss of time in the workforce.

Your entire worldview sucks. Largely due to a lack of rationality and systems-oriented thinking, and an excessive willingness to regurgitate flowery platitudes.
 
2013-07-24 08:46:19 PM

WhippingBoy: meyerkev: stewbert: verbaltoxin: Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.

Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.

So I've written a bunch of really, really long, somewhat repetitive comments on (kinda) how to get started with programming.  Getting the links into one spot (and in reverse order from which I wrote them):

http://www.fark.com/comments/7726281/83936678#c83936678 (and there's a language slapfight further down in the thread that you might find interesting)
http://www.fark.com/comments/7621995/82827357#c82827357
http://www.fark.com/comments/7618752/82791338#c82791338
http://www.fark.com/comments/7476988/81185221#c81185221

The TL/DR:
0) Programming languages aren't important, programming concepts (Data structure, Big-O, algorithms, software architecture) are.  You want to know why the guys at Google are getting paid way more than you, it's because they know concepts and can pick up 90% of most languages in a matter of hours or days.

1) Start with C. 2 reasons.  Everything is built on C/C++ (however indirectly) and C is this really dead-dog simple language, so you're dealing with ints and functions and not dealing with all the crazy stuff that the last 30 years have added.  Play around with some simple programs (like "Calculate the nth Fibonacci number") unless you get the concepts of variables and functions, etc.  Also, the canonical book, Kernigan and Ritchie, is really cheap and you should just buy it.

If step 1 took more than 2 weeks (with the poss ...

Yep. Pretty much this.

Also, if your boss asks you to code something in Java (or whatever), never, ever say "but I don't know Java". Learn it.


Lots of people learn to bang out syntactically correct code, but have no farking clue why or how it works.

If you want to get into software development for real, you learn design and learn it good. A solid basis in design and a C or C++ language means that when your boss wants you to do something in another language you can answer as WhippingBoy says and learn the particulars of the language to use it.

It's kind of like cabinet making. Learn to design cabinets first. Worry about the tools second. Otherwise you're never going to be more than 'that guy who can use a drill press.'
 
2013-07-25 03:14:57 AM
Hell no, the taxpayers aren't paying for your extended childhood we get soaked enough. No one held a gun to your head when you signed your name to a loan for a french art history major that employs a single person in the entire world.

Screw you student loan fools, welcome to adulthood where you get to pay for your bad decisions.
 
2013-07-25 07:38:07 AM

abiigdog: Hell no, the taxpayers aren't paying for your extended childhood we get soaked enough. No one held a gun to your head when you signed your name to a loan for a french art history major that employs a single person in the entire world.

Screw you student loan fools, welcome to adulthood where you get to pay for your bad decisions.


I'm all in favor of the "pay your own way" ethos, but the federal government doesn't give two shiats about our feelings on the matter.

See, these loans (which in most cases will turn out to be de facto grants, as to the uncollectible parts) issued by the US Ed Dept. are an excellent way of getting BRAND NEW VOTERS hooked on that sweet, sweet government easy money. Turning off this particular subsidy spigot means they'd have to get a job and (even worse) lose access to a high concentration of collegiate pussy and/or cock.

So, the politician who offers these 18-22 year-olds the biggest, sweetest pot of other people's money will continue to win elections.

Even more importantly, however, the State will use these subsidies to buy the life-long loyalty of college kids.

Once the government corrupts these empty-headed, enthusiastic fools in their very first voting cycle, it's easier to keep them in the thrall of the statist mindset.

That's the real racket here.
 
2013-07-25 11:11:34 AM

heili skrimsli: WhippingBoy: meyerkev: stewbert: verbaltoxin: Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.

Honest Question: Any suggestions for someone that wants to teach themselves a programming language? I would really like to learn one, and I'm not interested in a course. Just finishing grad school now, so I've had enough. But, I'd like to learn some programming. It would've been useful on my thesis, and it will be useful in the future.

I don't want an IT career, but I'd like to be able to develop some simple software tools that our IT guys aren't really geared towards.


Thanks for the tips, much appreciated.
 
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