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(Salon)   Why is it a city like Detroit can hide behind Chapter 9 Bankruptcy protection, but not the 37 million Americans drowning in student loan debt?   (salon.com) divider line 225
    More: Interesting, Americans, Detroit, collective investment scheme, sticker price  
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5395 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jul 2013 at 9:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-24 11:28:06 AM  

Voiceofreason01: tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.

well I for one don't see any problem with letting young people with few if any assets borrow thousands of dollars then discharge that debt with no real consequences.



Why do the young people in this system bear 100% of the risk, whereas the schools (many of which are state-owned and operated), and which receive all of the money, bear none of it?

Do you not see a problem with giving billions of dollars in easy government money to schools, with "no real consequences" if they provide little or no value to anyone in return?

This system guarantees that schools will tend, over time, to orient their services in a way that will maximize their subsidies, and minimize their obligations to students.  Obviously.
 
2013-07-24 11:29:47 AM  
"Sanskrit? You're majoring in a 5000 year-old dead language?"
i265.photobucket.com

That's why!
 
2013-07-24 11:30:45 AM  

And I've just finished my milk: FarkedOver: You won't get change from a ballot box

For all their douchebaggery, the Teabaggers are proving you wrong on that point. Primary challenges for any politician who doesn't represent them the way they want is certainly shifting the GOP position.

Perhaps if Democrats spent a little less time fussing about what the GOP are doing and tried holding their own representatives to account in similar fashion, rather than consistently retreating behind a 'lesser of two evils' defense, they might actually get somewhere.


This +10.
 
2013-07-24 11:33:28 AM  

trotsky: Mikey1969: Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...

Bootstraps!


I DO need a government grant to buy a set of those...
 
2013-07-24 11:39:12 AM  

verbaltoxin: And I've just finished my milk: FarkedOver: You won't get change from a ballot box

For all their douchebaggery, the Teabaggers are proving you wrong on that point. Primary challenges for any politician who doesn't represent them the way they want is certainly shifting the GOP position.

Perhaps if Democrats spent a little less time fussing about what the GOP are doing and tried holding their own representatives to account in similar fashion, rather than consistently retreating behind a 'lesser of two evils' defense, they might actually get somewhere.

Because of gerry mandering, Democrats have to get more people to vote for them per capita to win or hold a seat compared to a Republican. Splitting the ticket in a primary battle could cause the Democrat to lose.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-18/republicans-foil-what-most- u- s-wants-with-gerrymandering.html


Democrat losses might well be the price that has to be paid in order to get some decent politicians in place. Personally I'd rather accept some short-term pain for the chance of actual long-term gain, rather than just settling for a long, slow decline because it's the lesser evil. YMMV..
 
2013-07-24 11:39:40 AM  

Phinn: Voiceofreason01: tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.

well I for one don't see any problem with letting young people with few if any assets borrow thousands of dollars then discharge that debt with no real consequences.

Why do the young people in this system bear 100% of the risk, whereas the schools (many of which are state-owned and operated), and which receive all of the money, bear none of it?

Do you not see a problem with giving billions of dollars in easy government money to schools, with "no real consequences" if they provide little or no value to anyone in return?

This system guarantees that schools will tend, over time, to orient their services in a way that will maximize their subsidies, and minimize their obligations to students.  Obviously.


Schools and the programs they run are accredited; with the most basic of research you can get a good idea of the relative quality of a particular school and what kind of career you can make from a degree in a particular field. The whole point of student loans is that banks can offer much better rates than they otherwise would on essentially unsecured loans because they know that debt is very difficult to get out of: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.
 
2013-07-24 11:43:42 AM  

verbaltoxin: JeffreyScott: The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments.  Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.


People keep saying this like we don't have museums, research centers, libraries and galleries. Yeah the turnover in some of these jobs is low, but there is a need to replace curators, librarians, archivists and professors. They all die/retire sometime. These places are storehouses of our history. I don't know why you'd want that neglected. It's not all on Google, trust me.

Also making the government pour tons of people into a select group of degrees will oversaturate those degree fields, and dry up opportunities. I am on board with incentives to apply for a medical, scientific or technical degree, but basing the entire mandate on it is going to make you wind up with tons of useless engineering and nursing grads who can't be placed anywhere. The same sh*t is already happening to law and business, so why encourage that elsewhere?

I know it's hard to picture that because the STEM fields need people now, but it can, in fact happen.

Another thing: some of us art majors went into other fields, and got other skills qualifying us to do more than ...


I value museums, research centers, libraries and galleries, but I reject that idea that the only person qualified to be curators, librarians, archivists and professors are individuals with $250,000 degrees from a top ranked college or university.

Additionally, I am not suggesting that the government prohibit people from pursuing any specific degree, just that they set reasonable limits on how much money a person can borrow to obtain it.  That wouldn't necessarily prohibit someone from obtaining a poetry degree, though it may shorten the list of potential colleges they could attend to obtain it.  However, that is much better than saddling someone with debt that will negatively impact them for decades after graduation.

Finally I am aware that many people end up in fields that are outside the scope of their degrees.  But that begs the question of whether they needed a degree in the first place.
 
2013-07-24 11:53:32 AM  

Voiceofreason01: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.



You must have missed the memo where Obama socialized the student "loan" industry.

Also, the existence of (and ease of obtaining) the "loans" is what increases the price of the thing for which the loan is obtained.  (See, e.g., government-sponsored housing loan programs and house prices over, say, the last 20 years.)
 
2013-07-24 11:55:48 AM  

AccuJack: what_now: dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?

Yes. That is the point. The federal government sets annual and aggregate limits on the amount of money you can borrow from them. Sallie Mae does not.

So, if you could discharge your Sallie Mae loan in bankruptcy, they would think twice before offering a $40,000 loan each year to a kid studying "undecided".

As they *should*.  Everyone has a right to pursue a college education.  Not everyone should go, even those who can afford it.  If you don't know you want to go to college enough to pick something to study, then wait to go until you do know what you want.  Or go somewhere else like a technical school for post secondary study.  Really, we need more trade schools that are cheaper/easier to get into in the US, and less 4 year colleges designed for only recent high school graduates to attend.

In business there is risk.  If students being able to discharge a loan in bankruptcy puts the current lenders out of business because there's too much risk, then other lenders will step up.  That's business for ya.  There's always someone willing to accept the risk for the reward.


This is part of the problem:  "Everyone has a right to pursue a college education".  I missed that in the Bill of Rights.  Nobody has a right to pursue a college education.  Some have the ability to, others have the financial wherewithal to, some have neither, and others have both.  But none of these conditions imply a universal "right" to a college education.  There are certainly a lot of other parts to this problem, such as the cost of a college education relative to its benefits, or the amount of time it takes to accrue those benefits relative to the amount of time it takes to pay back the costs.

Regarding the question of risk vs. reward for lenders, what you suggest would more likely dramatically drive down the number of loans offered (and, thus, students in college).  Risk would be very high (if students could discharge loan debt in bankruptcy), so loan rates would be accordingly high (that's how risk vs. reward works).  Lenders would be forced to make the calculations themselves ... "Gender Sudies?  No loan for you!"  This may eventually solve the cost problem, as colleges and universities will no longer be able to fund those huge salaries.  However, it doesn't get us what we want -- a better educated citizenry.

I'm in favor of some sort of taxpayer-based subsidizing, as I believe a smarter, more well-informed populace benefits everyone, but not with the current college cost structure.  State schools (I'm happy to be a graduate of one) are a good bet, as their costs are typically well below their private school counterparts.  However, I haven't seen a model that gets it quite right yet.
 
2013-07-24 11:57:13 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


Remove regulation and let the market correct itself.  The education bubble needs to pop.

A loan?  For an art degree?  Here's 10 dollars.
 
2013-07-24 11:59:09 AM  
Detroit has value, but no money. You simply have no money.
 
2013-07-24 12:01:05 PM  

Limp_Bisquick: It would be a moot point if secondary education was affordable.


It actually might be if it were not for the loans.   YAY Free money loans for everybody!!!111  Created a supply/demand problem that allowed schools to jack up the rates.
 
2013-07-24 12:04:40 PM  

Phinn: Voiceofreason01: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.

You must have missed the memo where Obama socialized the student "loan" industry.

Also, the existence of (and ease of obtaining) the "loans" is what increases the price of the thing for which the loan is obtained.  (See, e.g., government-sponsored housing loan programs and house prices over, say, the last 20 years.)


I don't understand what point you're trying to make. And the reasons behind the changes in housing prices are FAR more complicated than you're suggesting.

/if this is a partisan anti-Obama thing then you're an idiot
 
2013-07-24 12:10:02 PM  

MythDragon: FarkedOver: Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in.  Take to the farking streets.  Make them hear you.  You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.


That's funny...I was just thinking about that pic as I read some of the comments here. I scroll down, and there it is.
 
2013-07-24 12:11:20 PM  
All I can say is I feel like a cheap ass after reading what some folks have in debt.  On the other hand, I paid my way through my first degree and the one I actually borrowed for I never used.  Almost wish I could sue the school but as I get older, all I can do is warn others about the pitfalls and traps of paying upfront tuition. Not that I didn't delay the payments a good bit but my first jerb was nowhere near sufficient fresh outta college to pay what they wanted.  The finance company has already changed names/domains 3 times and so forth and they keep raising rates and taking away features like a cable company.  Out of all my choices in life, getting a student loan and attending that school ranks number 3.  I do plan on paying it all back and have been as I have been able just to remind myself to be more careful in the future and to do more fishing, as it tends to keep things in perspective.  With the little amount I do have, I cannot imagine what others must feel like (although it seems most of america has lost its sense of guilt and replaced it with entitlement) with that much debt.

/The Salon "article" as usual, was horseshiat with the blogger contradicting themselves by the end of it.
//Only a Reagan can kill a Reagan...sheesh.
 
2013-07-24 12:12:03 PM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.

All I hear on Fark is study science and engineering. All I hear from new science and engineering grads is that all the jobs are taken by H1B visa holders who work for Starbucks wages.


It used to be that simply having the STEM degree was enough (e.g., the "C's get degree). But after millions of jobs were lost and companies tightened down (back in 2007-08ish), they have become more picky. a 3.0 GPA, and internship experience, and knowledge of X,Y,Z is now often the bare minimum.
 
2013-07-24 12:12:21 PM  
Subby: Why is it a city like Detroit can hide behind Chapter 9 Bankruptcy protection, but not the 37 million Americans drowning in student loan debt?

Because the students exchanged the ability to discharge their loans via bankruptcy in exchange for incredibly favorable loan terms, such as:

1) Guaranteed approval regardless of credit rating
2) Substantially deferred payment
3) Subsidized interest
4) Generous repayment terms
5) Favorable interest rates

If we offered "regular" loans with these terms and conditions - including the inability to discharge via bankruptcy - no other type of loan would ever be taken - that shows just how favorable these terms are.
 
2013-07-24 12:29:18 PM  

what_now: So, if you could discharge your Sallie Mae


Is that what the kids are calling it these days
 
2013-07-24 12:31:40 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Phinn: Voiceofreason01: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.

You must have missed the memo where Obama socialized the student "loan" industry.

Also, the existence of (and ease of obtaining) the "loans" is what increases the price of the thing for which the loan is obtained.  (See, e.g., government-sponsored housing loan programs and house prices over, say, the last 20 years.)

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. And the reasons behind the changes in housing prices are FAR more complicated than you're suggesting.

/if this is a partisan anti-Obama thing then you're an idiot



Of course pricing is complex, but the ease of credit is a factor in the complex system that, ceteris paribus, increases price.

There is no Obama thing.  There is no "partisan" thing when it comes to economics.  It's just reality.  The USA is a corporate tax farm, as I said above, and the nominal government is just the overseer.  There are no "parties" and haven't been for probably 100+ years.  There is only one party -- the Government Party -- and it has internal rivalries and factions, but the self-enslavement ritual formerly known as "elections" are just a form of theater.

Loans drive up the cost of schooling, which increases the need for loans, which drive up ....   See, this is what is known as a "system."

Your plan to force school prices to be set at a cap is the kind of politically-minded band-aid that governments have always used to hide the effects of their earlier scams.  Here's how it works -- Governments cause wild price fluctuations, then respond to the resulting outcry by imposing price controls, which are immediately violated rampantly, creating a black market, or (if successful) immediately cause huge shortages of the thing controlled, to which the government responds with increasingly-drastic, draconian punishments for violating "hoarding" and other price rules.  See, e.g., ancient Rome and Emperor Diocletian's Edict that was punishable by death, all the way through the French Revolution's guillotine for overcharging, to Chiang Kai-Shek's goons executing merchants in the streets, to today.

Yes, your opinion is relatively uninformed.  Try correcting that.
 
2013-07-24 12:35:14 PM  
Excellent question, but here's the answer for the headline ...

A cult is a religion with no political power.
A religion is deemed valid when it achieves political power.

Students? Not so much. This is why the cheetah runs down one kill at a time.
 
2013-07-24 12:36:13 PM  

Mikey1969: Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...


How adorably naive.  Please tell me kind sir, how do I pay for my $19,500/semester med school tuition alone (mind you, and that's pretty cheap as far as medicine)? Get a job? And hope they don't find out because, shocking I know, we aren't aloud to work because of that whole not wanting you to fail out and them losing out on their revenue.  Should I have saved up that much during undergrad? Please tell me a job that requires no degree that pays $60,000 a year.  Should I have let Mommy and Daddy pay for it? Of course not, because people that think the way you do whine about that too.  There's always the military, because it's reasonable to EXPECT someone to risk their life for pointless wars.  Which would be fine if they'd accept me, unfortunately I have a pesky medical condition.  I guess I should just actually "do some real, hard work" and be a plumber, getting off at the same time everyday, being able to enjoy a family, and sit back and watch some TV with a nice beer at the end of the day, and rest up and do something fun on the weekend.  Instead, I'll be in a laid back, cushy job that requires me to work 60 hours a week with travel to several different hospitals, with maybe a Saturday or two a month to enjoy with the friends and family I probably won't have time for.  Let's not forget pointless lawsuits!
 
2013-07-24 12:40:40 PM  
I paid off my student loans. My girlfriend worked her a$$ off to pay hers. My friends have either paid theirs through hard work at jobs they may or may not have liked, or are in the process of paying them off.
No one said when you chose to go to a $35k+ a year school that it was going to be easy to pay them off, but that was the price you were made clearly aware of when you took the loans out. So no, you shouldn't be allowed to cry bankruptcy as soon as you get out of college because you didn't get your dream job and weren't willing to do whatever it took to discharge your responsibility.
I am not willing to, through my taxes, pay the loans of the kids who were too special to have to work hard to pay off their own bloody debt. I know people who worked at crap $10/hr jobs and, though it took upwards of 7 years, they succeeded in paying their debt.

Man up, biatches.
 
2013-07-24 12:42:13 PM  

Phinn: Because we are livestock on a corporate-owned free-range tax farm called "the United States of America."

We are livestock, being farmed for our productivity.  Human livestock is the most valuable livestock there is, but there's one problem -- they won't work as much when they are not compelled to work, through debt and constantly-depreciating currency (which must be used to pay "taxes").  So, taxes and debt are imposed, in order to motivate people to work more.  Debt is the modern whip, to motivate the workers.

That's all "national debt" is -- a mechanism for imposing debt obligations on future generations of livestock, who incidentally can't complain.  (Not that voting matters.  The little suggestion box they put out every 4 years is just for show.)  National debt is the modern replacement for multi-generational debt obligations.  It ensures that the young will work.

College debt is especially useful for our corporate owners, because it targets young people, who work more and earn less, thus are less valuable as a resource for revenue via income taxes.  College loans is a means of imposing an increased level of debt.tax obligations on young people, regardless of how much they earn.

Now that Obama has cut out the middle-man and made young people indebted directly to the national corporate State, the State will (of course) eventually offer other ways that young people can buy their freedom.  Military service, for example, or other forms of direct State-controlled labor.


Moo.
 
2013-07-24 12:47:43 PM  

CWeinerWV: Please tell me kind sir,...


You take out a student loan, of course. You just don't start whining about how you are "drowning in debt" while paying off the loan. My point was that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Maybe you should have paid better attention to my post? I wrote it in English and everything.

I have no problem with people that take out student loans, I have a problem with people who constantly whine about how "evil" these loans are when they are the easiest loans to manage and all they do is bump up your credit rating even if you pay nothing more than the minimum.
 
2013-07-24 12:48:22 PM  

Phinn: Because we are livestock on a corporate-owned free-range tax farm called "the United States of America."

We are livestock, being farmed for our productivity.  Human livestock is the most valuable livestock there is, but there's one problem -- they won't work as much when they are not compelled to work, through debt and constantly-depreciating currency (which must be used to pay "taxes").  So, taxes and debt are imposed, in order to motivate people to work more.  Debt is the modern whip, to motivate the workers.

That's all "national debt" is -- a mechanism for imposing debt obligations on future generations of livestock, who incidentally can't complain.  (Not that voting matters.  The little suggestion box they put out every 4 years is just for show.)  National debt is the modern replacement for multi-generational debt obligations.  It ensures that the young will work.

College debt is especially useful for our corporate owners, because it targets young people, who work more and earn less, thus are less valuable as a resource for revenue via income taxes.  College loans is a means of imposing an increased level of debt.tax obligations on young people, regardless of how much they earn.

Now that Obama has cut out the middle-man and made young people indebted directly to the national corporate State, the State will (of course) eventually offer other ways that young people can buy their freedom.  Military service, for example, or other forms of direct State-controlled labor.


I would definitely go with Reynolds brand. Generic foil tends to be thinner.
 
2013-07-24 12:50:37 PM  

CWeinerWV: Mikey1969: Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...

How adorably naive.  Please tell me kind sir, how do I pay for my $19,500/semester med school tuition alone (mind you, and that's pretty cheap as far as medicine)? Get a job? And hope they don't find out because, shocking I know, we aren't aloud to work because of that whole not wanting you to fail out and them losing out on their revenue.  Should I have saved up that much during undergrad? Please tell me a job that requires no degree that pays $60,000 a year.  Should I have let Mommy and Daddy pay for it? Of course not, because people that think the way you do whine about that too.  There's always the military, because it's reasonable to EXPECT someone to risk their life for pointless wars.  Which would be fine if they'd accept me, unfortunately I have a pesky medical condition.  I guess I should just actually "do some real, hard work" and be a plumber, getting off at the same time everyday, being able to enjoy a family, and sit back and watch some TV with a nice beer at the end of the day, and rest up and do something fun on the weekend.  Instead, I'll be in a laid back, cushy job that requires me to work 60 hours a week with travel to several different hospitals, with maybe a Saturday or two a month to enjoy with the friends and family I probably won't have time for.  Let's not forget pointless lawsuits!


If you are in med school why would you need to find a $60k/year job without a degree?   How did you get INTO med school without a degree?  Could I have taken the MCAT out of high school and expected to be accepted?

Again you're focused on what you perceive as what you can't do, not what you can do.  You can work for a few years, using your undergraduate degree, and save $$.  Are there grants in aid for med students?  Have you applied for ALL of them?  What about the National Health Service Corps?

It appears as if you want someone else to make the sacrifice.  It depends on how badly you want it.
 
2013-07-24 12:53:38 PM  

Gabrielmot: what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.

hahahahahah...

I have a BS in CS. Outside my office, I see seas of cubicles filled with Medical Doctors.

Outside our building, down the street, around the corner, holding a handwritten sign, I see liberal arts graduates begging for change.


Immmmaginaaaationland!
 
2013-07-24 12:57:22 PM  
Phinn:.  The USA is a corporate tax farm...

ffs,  I got trolled didn't I?
 
2013-07-24 12:59:34 PM  

Phinn: Voiceofreason01: Phinn: Voiceofreason01: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.

You must have missed the memo where Obama socialized the student "loan" industry.

Also, the existence of (and ease of obtaining) the "loans" is what increases the price of the thing for which the loan is obtained.  (See, e.g., government-sponsored housing loan programs and house prices over, say, the last 20 years.)

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. And the reasons behind the changes in housing prices are FAR more complicated than you're suggesting.

/if this is a partisan anti-Obama thing then you're an idiot

Of course pricing is complex, but the ease of credit is a factor in the complex system that, ceteris paribus, increases price.

There is no Obama thing.  There is no "partisan" thing when it comes to economics.  It's just reality.  The USA is a corporate tax farm, as I said above, and the nominal government is just the overseer.  There are no "parties" and haven't been for probably 100+ years.  There is only one party -- the Government Party -- and it has internal rivalries and factions, but the self-enslavement ritual formerly known as "elections" are just a form of theater.

Loans drive up the cost of schooling, which increases the need for loans, which drive up ....   See, this is what is known as a "system."

Your plan to force school prices to be set at a cap is the kind of politically-minded band-aid that governments have always used to hide the effects of their earlier scams.  Here's how it works -- Governments cause wild price fluctuations, then respond to the resulting outcry by imposing price controls, which are immediately violated rampantly, creating a black market, or (if successful) immediately cause huge shortages of the thing controlled, to which the government responds with increasingly-drastic, draconian punishments for violating "hoarding" and other price rules.  See, e.g., ancient Rome and Emperor Diocletian's Edict that was punishable by death, all the way through the French Revolution's guillotine for overcharging, to Chiang Kai-Shek's goons executing merchants in the streets, to today.

Yes, your opinion is relatively uninformed.  Try correcting that.


Wait, did you just imply that its possible to horde a college education?

Not arguing, just clarifying.
 
2013-07-24 01:02:20 PM  

CWeinerWV: Mikey1969: Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...

How adorably naive.  Please tell me kind sir, how do I pay for my $19,500/semester med school tuition alone (mind you, and that's pretty cheap as far as medicine)? Get a job? And hope they don't find out because, shocking I know, we aren't aloud to work because of that whole not wanting you to fail out and them losing out on their revenue.  Should I have saved up that much during undergrad? Please tell me a job that requires no degree that pays $60,000 a year.  Should I have let Mommy and Daddy pay for it? Of course not, because people that think the way you do whine about that too.  There's always the military, because it's reasonable to EXPECT someone to risk their life for pointless wars.  Which would be fine if they'd accept me, unfortunately I have a pesky medical condition.  I guess I should just actually "do some real, hard work" and be a plumber, getting off at the same time everyday, being able to enjoy a family, and sit back and watch some TV with a nice beer at the end of the day, and rest up and do something fun on the weekend.  Instead, I'll be in a laid back, cushy job that requires me to work 60 hours a week with travel to several different hospitals, with maybe a Saturday or two a month to enjoy with the friends and family I probably won't have time for.  Let's not forget pointless lawsuits!


So you entered into a loan agreement knowing that you were going to have problems repaying it. Damn those bastards for cornering you!
 
2013-07-24 01:05:20 PM  

RyanAntiHero: I paid off my student loans. My girlfriend worked her a$$ off to pay hers. My friends have either paid theirs through hard work at jobs they may or may not have liked, or are in the process of paying them off.
No one said when you chose to go to a $35k+ a year school that it was going to be easy to pay them off, but that was the price you were made clearly aware of when you took the loans out. So no, you shouldn't be allowed to cry bankruptcy as soon as you get out of college because you didn't get your dream job and weren't willing to do whatever it took to discharge your responsibility.
I am not willing to, through my taxes, pay the loans of the kids who were too special to have to work hard to pay off their own bloody debt. I know people who worked at crap $10/hr jobs and, though it took upwards of 7 years, they succeeded in paying their debt.

Man up, biatches.


I honestly cannot recall being talked to about the impending debt of my student loans. I always knew I would have to pay them off, but I think everyone beginning college expects to have a pretty good job when they get out. The reality is that you get out, work an entry level shiat position within your field that barely covers the cost of living, then IF you move up the ladder you might be able to pay off some of your debt.

Also, with the price of tuition going up yearly,  kids are these days are royally farked.
 
2013-07-24 01:09:45 PM  

WhippingBoy: The answer is simple:

- subsidize tuition in order to reduce the frequency/need for student loans
- allow student loans to be absolved through bankruptcy
- provide other means/ways/mechanisms to promote an educated population

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:

- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.
- require that you maintain a certain GPA, or you revert back to the "old" system

What this will do is:
- ease the way for people who actually plan for their future, and are serious about college
- dissuade people from going to college for the sake of going to college
- dissuade people from racking up massive amounts of debt in order to obtain an obviously useless (in terms of ROI) degree

e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime



This is sensible and well thought out. I anticipate many posts abusing you as I continue to read this thread.
 
2013-07-24 01:11:53 PM  
Bankruptcy protections are not required for student loans.
According the documents that my daughter received regarding her loans:
1) She only has to start paying 6 months after finishing school.
2) Here payments will not exceed 10% of her disposable income (after taxes and typical monthly bills, such as mortgage, rent, utilities, etc.). If unemployed, there are no payments.
3) Loans are forgiven if not fully paid in 20 years.
 
2013-07-24 01:12:31 PM  

Gabrielmot: what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.

hahahahahah...

I have a BS in CS. Outside my office, I see seas of cubicles filled with Medical Doctors.

Outside our building, down the street, around the corner, holding a handwritten sign, I see liberal arts graduates begging for change.


Where do you work where so many MDs are willing to be confined to a cubicle farm?
 
2013-07-24 01:14:02 PM  

The Southern Logic Company: Nana's Vibrator: WhippingBoy:
This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.

Whatever, dude.  You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever.  If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it.  Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle".  Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations.  That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person.  I talk to the engineers!
//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.

I hold a BA in Philosophy and now I work as a software dev.  A CS degree is a waste of time, its more about what you KNOW and what you can DO.

I also write killer documentation that makes you question truth.


I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev.  How did you make the transition to sof dev?  I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Symbolic logic is possibly the greatest cource I took while studying philosophy.  It's the link between algebra and the real world.
 
2013-07-24 01:18:35 PM  
deanis:
I honestly cannot recall being talked to about the impending debt of my student loans. I always knew I would have to pay them off, but I think everyone beginning college expects to have a pretty good job when they get out. The reality is that you get out, work an entry level shiat position within your field that barely covers the cost of living, then IF you move up the ladder you might be able to pay off some of your debt.

Also, with the price of tuition going up yearly,  kids are these days are royally farked.


1. By law, you have to have signed a document spelling out in detail what you owe, including the real interest rate and the total cost of repayment.
2. It sounds like a significant part of the problem is that workers have increasingly little power in the US job market which drives up qualifications required to get a job in the first place and drives down compensation, which is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from student loans.
 
2013-07-24 01:20:15 PM  

FarkedOver: fortheloveofgod: Or, you could not have taken out the loan if you didn't agree with its terms.

Good idea.  I should never have went to college.  WHO CARES that almost every job offer says "4 year degree required."


They SAY that all the time, but I've found it to be rather meaningless.

/ 13 years as an engineer in the semiconductor industry
// college dropout
/// never really much of a problem
 
2013-07-24 01:25:45 PM  

deanis: kids are these days are royally farked.


My advice?

Find a community college with a nursing program.

Tuition is reasonable, pay is reasonable, and you can't outsource nursing to Mexico.
 
2013-07-24 01:27:52 PM  

tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.


this
 
2013-07-24 01:43:46 PM  
Student loans have been around forever. Why is this a problem now? Because cupcake can't pay them off?
 
2013-07-24 01:46:11 PM  
LOL @ drowning because of student loans.

My wife and I are no longer drowning.  We drowned.  We will never own a house.  We will likely never be able to own a car, even a used one.  The chances of me being able to find a traditional job ever again are slim.  We exist on the lamb from our creditors, surviving only by humbly accepting the charitable food and shelter that is offered to us.  We are beggars.  I own only three sets of clothing, a hairbrush, and a toothbrush (and since my teeth and hair are falling out from lack of nutrition, even those things seem excessive).  I only use the internet at the library, and when I do I only post to Fark because I don't want my creditors tracking me down.  I never even use my real name for anything anymore.  That man is dead- he drowned under a pile of debt.

Oddly, none of that is a complaint.  The fact of the matter is that extreme poverty has taught me far more and enriched my life to a much greater degree than college ever did.  It has taught me to shut off my responses to pain and hunger.  It has taught me that my comfort only comes at the cost of someone else's survival.  It has taught me humility and the need to show unconditional love and compassion wherever I go.  It has given me clarity, perspective, and (dare I say it) some degree of wisdom.  I get more out of nothing than the richest man gets out of everything he owns.

And so, I no longer struggle against my poverty.  I accept it as not only the reality of the situation but as a blessing.  I thank God every day for my poverty, and pray that He grants me the strength and wisdom to bear this blessing.  Soon, my wife and I may head for a land where people are even poorer than we are now so that we may give to them and work to enrich their lives rather than our own.  We desire greater poverty in our lives.  It is only when we are free from the material distractions in our lives that we are finally able to see our path through life and what is truly important.

May everyone receive the blessings we have received.

With Endless Love,

Radar
 
2013-07-24 01:49:40 PM  

KFBR392: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.

All I hear on Fark is study science and engineering. All I hear from new science and engineering grads is that all the jobs are taken by H1B visa holders who work for Starbucks wages.

It used to be that simply having the STEM degree was enough (e.g., the "C's get degree). But after millions of jobs were lost and companies tightened down (back in 2007-08ish), they have become more picky. a 3.0 GPA, and internship experience, and knowledge of X,Y,Z is now often the bare minimum.


This.  Get a 3.0 (or serious experience to make up for the fact that you don't have a 3.0.  A couple of my buddies ended up leading clubs, contributing to open-source, etc, etc, which made up for the fact that they had 2.8's), and a couple internships and you're set (3.4/Microsoft + TripAdvisor).  Don't do those things, you're moderately screwed even in the massive sellers market that is top-flight CS right now.

/I should add that the curve was based around a 2.8, so a 3.0 is hard to get, and over half the students in the major will fail and fail hard.
 
2013-07-24 01:50:39 PM  

FarkedOver: Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in.  Take to the farking streets.  Make them hear you.  You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.


They did that and were ridiculed and their actual voices ignored. It was one of the complaints Occupy Wall Street had. Many people, especially here at fark just said they should just get jobs and mocked them for all likely having liberal arts degrees.
 
2013-07-24 01:52:14 PM  

TelemonianAjax: The Southern Logic Company:
I hold a BA in Philosophy and now I work as a software dev.  A CS degree is a waste of time, its more about what you KNOW and what you can DO.

I also write killer documentation that makes you question truth.

I also have a PHIL BA, but I work in IT, not dev.  How did you make the transition to sof dev?  I'm really maxed out on what I've been good at up till now, and I'm wanting to learn how to write real code, but I'm just not sure how to get started in a way that won't end up wasting a lot of my time learning things I won't use.

Symbolic logic is possibly the greatest cource I took while studying philosophy.  It's the link between algebra and the real world.


Symbolic Logic was an excellent course, I'm glad I fought to get into it.

As for software dev, I got lucky.  I got hired at a start-up that had literally three employees that was then acquired by a slightly bigger company with 15 employees.  I had experience in Java from High School plus I developed some Java apps myself as well in my spare time.  What really made the transition easy was the nature of the business (Point of Sale Software) requires a lot of training on the product anyway so my boss wasn't opposed to me being rusty for a bit.  I had to teach myself MSSQL and C# in the span of two months but a year later I'm now the "Senior dev" and somehow still employed.

/Whatever that means
//Pay is still the same...
 
2013-07-24 02:11:32 PM  

Voiceofreason01: It sounds like a significant part of the problem is that workers have increasingly little power in the US job market which drives up qualifications required to get a job in the first place and drives down compensation, which is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from student loans.


So you're saying that we should regulate businesses in order to force them to hire less qualified candidates, when more qualified candidates are available? I'm pretty liberal, but I can't sign off on actually enforcing such a thing.

Businesses are not responsible for the availability of cheap loans, nor the inflated prices of degrees. The candidates are clearly out there and it's a buyer's market.
 
2013-07-24 02:15:10 PM  

deanis: RyanAntiHero: I paid off my student loans. My girlfriend worked her a$$ off to pay hers. My friends have either paid theirs through hard work at jobs they may or may not have liked, or are in the process of paying them off.
No one said when you chose to go to a $35k+ a year school that it was going to be easy to pay them off, but that was the price you were made clearly aware of when you took the loans out. So no, you shouldn't be allowed to cry bankruptcy as soon as you get out of college because you didn't get your dream job and weren't willing to do whatever it took to discharge your responsibility.
I am not willing to, through my taxes, pay the loans of the kids who were too special to have to work hard to pay off their own bloody debt. I know people who worked at crap $10/hr jobs and, though it took upwards of 7 years, they succeeded in paying their debt.

Man up, biatches.

I honestly cannot recall being talked to about the impending debt of my student loans. I always knew I would have to pay them off, but I think everyone beginning college expects to have a pretty good job when they get out. The reality is that you get out, work an entry level shiat position within your field that barely covers the cost of living, then IF you move up the ladder you might be able to pay off some of your debt.

Also, with the price of tuition going up yearly,  kids are these days are royally farked.


That is exactly the problem.

The snowflakes now expect someone to come to them and tell them what their obligations are instead of taking a modicum of responsibility and figuring things out for themselves.  They signed the farking papers and there are tons of free resources to help them figure things out.

Kind of pathetic actually.
 
2013-07-24 02:18:49 PM  
WhippingBoy:

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:
- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.


Are you seriously saying that people don't do the above before they take out a loan today?
WTF do they do?  Just take out money and hope for the best?
 
2013-07-24 02:26:23 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: WhippingBoy:

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:
- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.

Are you seriously saying that people don't do the above before they take out a loan today?
WTF do they do?  Just take out money and hope for the best?


Seems obvious that people aren't doing this rudimentary investigation considering how many people are complaining about how unfair the system is.
 
2013-07-24 02:35:14 PM  

sethen320: Phinn: Voiceofreason01: Phinn: Voiceofreason01: if you allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy then there will no longer be student loans available, this was the problem that the student loan laws were created to solve in the first place. In my relatively uninformed opinion this problem should be addressed on the cost side: schools, particularly public schools, should be cheaper to attend and if I had my way tuition should be free.

You must have missed the memo where Obama socialized the student "loan" industry.

Also, the existence of (and ease of obtaining) the "loans" is what increases the price of the thing for which the loan is obtained.  (See, e.g., government-sponsored housing loan programs and house prices over, say, the last 20 years.)

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. And the reasons behind the changes in housing prices are FAR more complicated than you're suggesting.

/if this is a partisan anti-Obama thing then you're an idiot

Of course pricing is complex, but the ease of credit is a factor in the complex system that, ceteris paribus, increases price.

There is no Obama thing.  There is no "partisan" thing when it comes to economics.  It's just reality.  The USA is a corporate tax farm, as I said above, and the nominal government is just the overseer.  There are no "parties" and haven't been for probably 100+ years.  There is only one party -- the Government Party -- and it has internal rivalries and factions, but the self-enslavement ritual formerly known as "elections" are just a form of theater.

Loans drive up the cost of schooling, which increases the need for loans, which drive up ....   See, this is what is known as a "system."

Your plan to force school prices to be set at a cap is the kind of politically-minded band-aid that governments have always used to hide the effects of their earlier scams.  Here's how it works -- Governments cause wild price fluctuations, then respond to the resulting outcry by imposing price controls, which are immediately violated rampantly, creating a black market, or (if successful) immediately cause huge shortages of the thing controlled, to which the government responds with increasingly-drastic, draconian punishments for violating "hoarding" and other price rules.  See, e.g., ancient Rome and Emperor Diocletian's Edict that was punishable by death, all the way through the French Revolution's guillotine for overcharging, to Chiang Kai-Shek's goons executing merchants in the streets, to today.

Yes, your opinion is relatively uninformed.  Try correcting that.

Wait, did you just imply that its possible to horde a college education?

Not arguing, just clarifying.


Education services can't be hoarded like commodities. So, artificial price caps have different economic effects.

First, caps force marginal producers out of business (since they can't compete against their more resilient alternatives), and the ones to fail are usually the smaller ones, thus leading to consolidation of producers into a small number of giants. This has happened in a lot of contexts wherever below-market price-fixing occurs. It virtually killed just about every railroad company, for example.

Second, to survive and cut costs, the next layer of marginal producers experiences a huge increase in its incentive to lie and cheat. In an education context, this means they turn into diploma mills, granting credentials for money, and hiring teachers on the cheap (who thus also have an increased opportunity to fake their credentials), and generally turning education into an empty pantomime or ritual, whose only purpose is to satisfy the preferences of the payer (the US Dept. of Education), rather than satisfy the preferences of the students (since they are increasingly isolated from the paying and oversight process).

The education market can't be improved by force.
 
2013-07-24 02:39:38 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: WhippingBoy:

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:
- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan:
  - show how you intend to pay it back
  - justify your degree in terms of return on investment
  - research the "employability" of your degree
  - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.

Are you seriously saying that people don't do the above before they take out a loan today?
WTF do they do?  Just take out money and hope for the best?


Yeah, pretty much.
 
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