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(Salon)   Why is it a city like Detroit can hide behind Chapter 9 Bankruptcy protection, but not the 37 million Americans drowning in student loan debt?   (salon.com) divider line 225
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5393 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jul 2013 at 9:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-24 10:32:00 AM  
Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...
 
2013-07-24 10:33:17 AM  

stuff: So, it is assumed you were smart and knowledgeable enough to know exactly what you were getting into, and the debt was completely voluntary.


Except that the student loan debt is usually started when the kid is fresh out of high school, not at the end of their college career.

I get annoyed by everyone whining about student loans, but I'm not sure your argument is the right one.
 
2013-07-24 10:33:19 AM  
In bankruptcy you have to sell items to satisfy creditors.

I think student loans should be discharged through bankruptcy but the person claiming bankruptcy should have to undergo a lobotomy to erase all that knowledge they don't want to pay for.
 
2013-07-24 10:36:44 AM  

neversubmit: tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.

 
2013-07-24 10:37:11 AM  

dukeblue219: I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?


Came here to say this.

On the flip side, you are creating false demand, which actually then helps raise the price.
As opposed to less people being able to pay, so prices come down.

/can you tell I used loans for me education
 
2013-07-24 10:41:13 AM  

what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.


That's some quality blinders, right there.

/Yes, I'd like fries with that.
 
2013-07-24 10:41:48 AM  
WhippingBoy:
This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.


Whatever, dude.  You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever.  If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it.  Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle".  Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations.  That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person.  I talk to the engineers!
//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.
 
2013-07-24 10:42:26 AM  
The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments.  Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.

No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

A $180,000 degree from Barry College is great, but maybe pursuing that degree at a costs of $30,000 at an in-state public institution is a wiser decision, especially if there is no difference in earning potential.
 
2013-07-24 10:43:58 AM  

PluckYew: Limp_Bisquick: It would be a moot point if secondary education was affordable.

This is bullshiat.  Get out and see the world for a few years, get off the parental tit so you can apply for financial aid based on your own income.  You'd be surprised how much grant money is available when your income is under $20k per year.  There ARE opportunities but you're already defeated by the impression it's too expensive.  You can't always have it HOW you want it.  If you want it bad enough you will find a way without saddling yourself with crippling debt.  You will learn the meaning of SACRIFICE.

Or get into an apprenticeship program

This country has been conditioned to believe that the only way to achieve prosperity is through a bachelor's degree and now we have a shortage of skilled blue collar workers and a surplus of lawyers and unemployable "educated" youths.

High paying jobs as electricians, plumbers, millwrights and other fields go unfilled because they require hard work instead of expertise in Art History or whatever humanities program you completed at "Cal State Barstow", and entitled sh*tbags think the jobs are beneath them.

Also you start at the bottom and work your way up it's not "plumbers idol" where you're plucked from obscurity and showered with false praise.

I know mommy always told you you were special, but you're not.  You need to get in line with everybody else.


True as your rant may be, secondary education is a tad overpriced.
 
2013-07-24 10:44:33 AM  

FarkedOver: fortheloveofgod: Or, you could not have taken out the loan if you didn't agree with its terms.

Good idea.  I should never have went to college.  WHO CARES that almost every job offer says "4 year degree required."


If you couldn't afford the debt, then no, you never should have gone to college.  You're looking for the answer in the wrong place.  The evil is not in the loan, the evil is in the high cost of education.  If education was priced at a reasonable level, the loan you had to take out would have been much smaller.  Get to the root cause - the price of the education, not that evil loan that YOU agreed to.
 
2013-07-24 10:46:15 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: WhippingBoy:
This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.

Whatever, dude.  You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever.  If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it.  Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle".  Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations.  That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person.  I talk to the engineers!
//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.


I don't disagree with the sentiment; you're basically correct (although it's more like 25%, not 5%).
 
2013-07-24 10:47:37 AM  

fortheloveofgod: If you couldn't afford the debt, then no, you never should have gone to college. You're looking for the answer in the wrong place. The evil is not in the loan, the evil is in the high cost of education. If education was priced at a reasonable level, the loan you had to take out would have been much smaller. Get to the root cause - the price of the education, not that evil loan that YOU agreed to.


The "evil" loan and the cost of education are hand in glove.  They are both actors on the same stage performing for the same outcome; profit at the expense of those least likely to afford it.  I understand this is the nature vampiritic nature of capitalism, which is why I have become increasingly more anti-capitalist.
 
2013-07-24 10:48:26 AM  

vernonFL: Because bankruptcy is an extreme last resort and most people would rather do everything they possibly could before declaring bankruptcy over student debt?


We are talking about people that basically made their first real world, adult decision to be "go into debt".  We aren't talking about most people.
 
2013-07-24 10:48:47 AM  
JeffreyScott:
No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

While probably true, any candidate going into research who just read this collectively broke into tears from reading this.  Some of those kids go to Ivy League schools and live in a tiny apartment, on Ramen Noodles, with one outfit and a bus pass.
 
2013-07-24 10:49:30 AM  
Because they're not the same thing? Dumbass
 
2013-07-24 10:50:41 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: WhippingBoy:
This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.

Whatever, dude.  You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever.  If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it.  Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle".  Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations.  That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person.  I talk to the engineers!
//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.


I hold a BA in Philosophy and now I work as a software dev.  A CS degree is a waste of time, its more about what you KNOW and what you can DO.

I also write killer documentation that makes you question truth.
 
2013-07-24 10:50:52 AM  
Too big to feel.
 
2013-07-24 10:51:57 AM  

mainstreet62: what_now: thurstonxhowell: what_now: Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Hard science degrees don't teach critical thinking? *cough*Bullshiat*cough*

Some do, sure. "Engineering" and "Computer Science" degrees teach you formulas, and as someone already pointed out all the entry level positions are filled by H1B1 Visa holders and no one is retiring.

I predict that the engineering bubble will burst in the next 5 years, much like the law bubble.

As an engineer, I classify your entire post as bullshiat, but especially the bolded parts.

There will always be demand for engineers simply because they have a fundamental understanding of how machinery/programs work and how to fix them. As for visa holders having the jobs, well, that should help prove a point that THIS COUNTRY NEEDS MORE HOME GROWN ENGINEERS!

Also, do you really think liberal arts majors are the only people taught critical thinking? You should be publicly shamed for such an idiotic comment.


This.
Besides the parts you highlighted, there is the gem of a notion that those degrees, especially CompSci, teach formulas.  That made me laugh
 
2013-07-24 10:52:56 AM  

FarkedOver: fortheloveofgod: If you couldn't afford the debt, then no, you never should have gone to college. You're looking for the answer in the wrong place. The evil is not in the loan, the evil is in the high cost of education. If education was priced at a reasonable level, the loan you had to take out would have been much smaller. Get to the root cause - the price of the education, not that evil loan that YOU agreed to.

The "evil" loan and the cost of education are hand in glove.  They are both actors on the same stage performing for the same outcome; profit at the expense of those least likely to afford it.  I understand this is the nature vampiritic nature of capitalism, which is why I have become increasingly more anti-capitalist.


And yet you are still here. Why is that if its so evil and there are much better socialist/maxist places you could go?

/like complaining about a splinter and refusing to pull it out... then complaining about it some more
 
2013-07-24 10:53:48 AM  

PluckYew: FarkedOver: tenpoundsofcheese: You actually believe that no one ever moves from one class to another? That is a stupid statement, even for you.

Statistically, you die in the class you are born.

PluckYew: Your disparaging comment about 'factory workers' indicates to me you think those jobs are beneath you.

There are shortages of qualified applicants for good paying blue collar jobs that don't require a 4 year degree. You're probably too smart for any of them right?

Wasn't disparaging at all.  I'm sorry I made you clutch your pearls in outrage though.

And I encourage as many people as I can to take up a trade rather than going to college.  But what happens when the blue collar fields are all filled?  Do we just keep going from one bubble to the next?

I'm sorry you hate that people go to college instead of being factory employees just smart enough to work a machine

Willfully ignorant or just stupid?

I don't hate that people go to college, I hate that everyone is conditioned to believe that going to college is the only way to achieve prosperity.  I went to college, I've worked in trades.  I have moderate student loans, that I am PAYING which is what this thread was about.

Losers who've incurred debts they can't afford to pay back because they've been conditioned by their guidance counselor or some other 'authority figure' to believe it's the only way to get ahead.

There are many paths to prosperity in this country, if you can't see that then you should probably consider moving to some place like Best Korea, you'd probably find it to be Shangri-La.


First of all, I never accused you of believing that.  And I personally don't believe that.  My belief is that is what the capitalists want.  An expendable populace only smart enough to serve the needs of the elite.

OH look who is being disparaging to college grads! I AM OUTRAGED!
 
2013-07-24 10:55:09 AM  

Mikey1969: stuff: So, it is assumed you were smart and knowledgeable enough to know exactly what you were getting into, and the debt was completely voluntary.

Except that the student loan debt is usually started when the kid is fresh out of high school, not at the end of their college career.

I get annoyed by everyone whining about student loans, but I'm not sure your argument is the right one.


If you are smart enough to get into college and know how to use the intertubes you should be smart enough to know what you are getting into.
It isn't as if this topic is some secret thing that no one knows about until after they graduate.  Even the President talks about this issue.
 
2013-07-24 10:55:14 AM  

Joe Blowme: And yet you are still here. Why is that if its so evil and there are much better socialist/maxist places you could go?

/like complaining about a splinter and refusing to pull it out... then complaining about it some more


Why not attempt to change this capitalist culture into something truly Egalitarian?  I don't understand why this is something that appalling to you.
 
2013-07-24 10:56:08 AM  
The bottom line is that if you're racking up 5 or 6 figures in student loan debt in order to get a Bachelor's degree in History or English Lit, you're part of the problem.
 
2013-07-24 10:56:12 AM  

Eponymous: I ended the interview by telling her she was clearly not qualified for the position when she couldn't explain to me the formula to calculate a mean..


Back when Bodies: The Exhibition was in town, I went there with my aunt. We were having a great time going through the exhibit and learning cool stuff about anatomy when we got to the stone fetus and I heard a woman say 'There's just no way. It would come out when you pee. That can't be real.' The exchange after that involved someone else asking her how she could possibly not know that your vagina and urethra are two different holes, and her saying that she was a history major in college who works at a bank, so how is she supposed to know things like that.

If anything, I hope she at least learned that your vadge and your pee hole are different holes after visiting that exhibit.
 
2013-07-24 10:56:12 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: WhippingBoy:
This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.
Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.

Whatever, dude.  You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever.  If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it.  Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle".  Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations.  That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person.  I talk to the engineers!
//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.


I noticed that at one of my first jobs (oil & gas at the time). Now I work at research labs and I use a lot of my education.. It feels that I even need a master's degree sometimes.

/Winning
 
2013-07-24 10:57:35 AM  

JeffreyScott: The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments.  Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.

No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

A $180,000 degree from Barry College is great, but maybe pursuing that degree at a costs of $30,000 at an in-state public institution is a wiser decision, especially if there is no difference in earning potential.


People keep saying this like we don't have museums, research centers, libraries and galleries. Yeah the turnover in some of these jobs is low, but there is a need to replace curators, librarians, archivists and professors. They all die/retire sometime. These places are storehouses of our history. I don't know why you'd want that neglected. It's not all on Google, trust me.

Also making the government pour tons of people into a select group of degrees will oversaturate those degree fields, and dry up opportunities. I am on board with incentives to apply for a medical, scientific or technical degree, but basing the entire mandate on it is going to make you wind up with tons of useless engineering and nursing grads who can't be placed anywhere. The same sh*t is already happening to law and business, so why encourage that elsewhere?

I know it's hard to picture that because the STEM fields need people now, but it can, in fact happen.

Another thing: some of us art majors went into other fields, and got other skills qualifying us to do more than pour coffee. I got my degree 10 years ago and I've spent the last 9 in defense.

/Last: based on the average Fark comment, no, most of you do NOT know how to think critically.
 
2013-07-24 11:01:05 AM  

FarkedOver: PluckYew: FarkedOver: tenpoundsofcheese: You actually believe that no one ever moves from one class to another? That is a stupid statement, even for you.

Statistically, you die in the class you are born.

PluckYew: Your disparaging comment about 'factory workers' indicates to me you think those jobs are beneath you.

There are shortages of qualified applicants for good paying blue collar jobs that don't require a 4 year degree. You're probably too smart for any of them right?

Wasn't disparaging at all.  I'm sorry I made you clutch your pearls in outrage though.

And I encourage as many people as I can to take up a trade rather than going to college.  But what happens when the blue collar fields are all filled?  Do we just keep going from one bubble to the next?

I'm sorry you hate that people go to college instead of being factory employees just smart enough to work a machine

Willfully ignorant or just stupid?

I don't hate that people go to college, I hate that everyone is conditioned to believe that going to college is the only way to achieve prosperity.  I went to college, I've worked in trades.  I have moderate student loans, that I am PAYING which is what this thread was about.

Losers who've incurred debts they can't afford to pay back because they've been conditioned by their guidance counselor or some other 'authority figure' to believe it's the only way to get ahead.

There are many paths to prosperity in this country, if you can't see that then you should probably consider moving to some place like Best Korea, you'd probably find it to be Shangri-La.

First of all, I never accused you of believing that.  And I personally don't believe that.  My belief is that is what the capitalists want.  An expendable populace only smart enough to serve the needs of the elite.

OH look who is being disparaging to college grads! I AM OUTRAGED!


Why are your posts being deleted?  Serious question, because I don't know what was offensive.  (I am probably looking at the ban hammer for questioning moderators but I don't want to make the mistake in the future).

Yeah, Losers who can't pay the debts they've incurred, not all college graduates, I am not self-loathing.
 
2013-07-24 11:01:18 AM  
In the "good old days" tm, student loans were absolved in bankruptcy.

Met a few students when I was in the system who had this as their M.O., their life had been set up so that they had no assets in their name, and would declare bankruptcy upon graduation, and walk away clear.
So that loophole got plugged.
Don't like the new reality?  Blame the greed-heads of your parents and grand-parents generation.

/paid mine off
//were'nt much back then, though.
///no easy answers.
 
2013-07-24 11:01:24 AM  

FarkedOver: Joe Blowme: And yet you are still here. Why is that if its so evil and there are much better socialist/maxist places you could go?

/like complaining about a splinter and refusing to pull it out... then complaining about it some more

Why not attempt to change this capitalist culture into something truly Egalitarian?  I don't understand why this is something that appalling to you.


Its not, i like the constitution which states the main point of Egalitarians.
life is what you make it, dont just stand arround crying life is not fair with your hand out.

"Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth "
 
2013-07-24 11:01:26 AM  

WhippingBoy: The bottom line is that if you're racking up 5 or 6 figures in student loan debt in order to get a Bachelor's degree in History or English Lit, you're part of the problem.


That's because the country's biggest and best facilities for literature and history aren't cheap. Eventually, someone will be in charge of researching, archiving, studying and sharing that data, and it won't be a server admin. It'll be an historian, archivist, or professor who may require server admin. knowledge to do it.

So yeah, somebody has to pay the 5-6 figures and get their English Lit. degree, so they can eventually become the Ph. D responsible for what is only the collective written history of our species.

/But tell me more about how engineers can think critically.
 
2013-07-24 11:01:34 AM  
Fark all of you, I make money to go to College. 1500 a month from the GI Bill for Active Duty service and 100% tuition is paid by my States National Guard. If someone wants to go to school for free there are ways to do it. You have to work to do it though, I know that all you liberal farking turds don't want to that though.
 
2013-07-24 11:02:06 AM  

verbaltoxin: JeffreyScott: The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments.  Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.

No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

A $180,000 degree from Barry College is great, but maybe pursuing that degree at a costs of $30,000 at an in-state public institution is a wiser decision, especially if there is no difference in earning potential.

People keep saying this like we don't have museums, research centers, libraries and galleries. Yeah the turnover in some of these jobs is low, but there is a need to replace curators, librarians, archivists and professors. They all die/retire sometime. These places are storehouses of our history. I don't know why you'd want that neglected. It's not all on Google, trust me.

Also making the government pour tons of people into a select group of degrees will oversaturate those degree fields, and dry up opportunities. I am on board with incentives to apply for a medical, scientific or technical degree, but basing the entire mandate on it is going to make you wind up with tons of useless engineering and nursing grads who can't be placed anywhere. The same sh*t is already happening to law and business, so why encourage that elsewhere?

I know it's hard to picture that because the STEM fields need people now, but it can, in fact happen.

Another thing: some of us art majors went into other fields, and got other skills qualifying us to do more than ...


I believe you replied to the wrong post.

/Which makes your critical thinking comment pretty funny
 
2013-07-24 11:02:51 AM  

Joe Blowme: "Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth "


True egalitarianism can occur when we rid this world of capitalism.
 
2013-07-24 11:04:02 AM  

PluckYew: Why are your posts being deleted?


Name calling.... don't question it just roll with it.  I know what I said and I know who I said it to and I probably know who deleted it.  Let's just leave it at that.
 
2013-07-24 11:06:15 AM  

Joe Blowme: FarkedOver: Joe Blowme: And yet you are still here. Why is that if its so evil and there are much better socialist/maxist places you could go?

/like complaining about a splinter and refusing to pull it out... then complaining about it some more

Why not attempt to change this capitalist culture into something truly Egalitarian?  I don't understand why this is something that appalling to you.

Its not, i like the constitution which states the main point of Egalitarians.
life is what you make it, dont just stand arround crying life is not fair with your hand out.

"Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth "


Agree.
It would be impossible to engineering a society based on equal outcomes.
Would also be a depressing place to live as I watch my neighbor pitch for the Yankees in the world series because it is his turn.
 
2013-07-24 11:06:23 AM  

verbaltoxin: WhippingBoy: The bottom line is that if you're racking up 5 or 6 figures in student loan debt in order to get a Bachelor's degree in History or English Lit, you're part of the problem.

That's because the country's biggest and best facilities for literature and history aren't cheap. Eventually, someone will be in charge of researching, archiving, studying and sharing that data, and it won't be a server admin. It'll be an historian, archivist, or professor who may require server admin. knowledge to do it.

So yeah, somebody has to pay the 5-6 figures and get their English Lit. degree, so they can eventually become the Ph. D responsible for what is only the collective written history of our species.

/But tell me more about how engineers can think critically.


Yes, and my original comment covered that. I'm not talking about the people who take History because they have a burning passion for history and detailed plans on what they're going to do with their lives. I'm talking about the people who take History because the History course schedule at the time of registration allowed them Mondays and Fridays off.
 
2013-07-24 11:07:20 AM  

what_now: WhippingBoy: e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

Every time someone says "You should get X degree" I cringe because I recognize that we will hit market saturation of those degrees.

E.g: Law Degrees.


hahahahahah...

I have a BS in CS. Outside my office, I see seas of cubicles filled with Medical Doctors.

Outside our building, down the street, around the corner, holding a handwritten sign, I see liberal arts graduates begging for change.
 
2013-07-24 11:09:01 AM  

HipsterTrash: Fark all of you, I make money to go to College. 1500 a month from the GI Bill for Active Duty service and 100% tuition is paid by my States National Guard. If someone wants to go to school for free there are ways to do it. You have to work to do it though, I know that all you liberal farking turds don't want to that though.


It doesn't even have to be the military if you're opposed to it.

It was my path but my point is and has been in this thread, there are opportunities for those who are willing to take unconventional paths.  Maybe it's Americorps, (does that still exist?).  Maybe it takes you longer than 4 years, maybe you work in a job you hate as motivation.  Nobody owes you anything and certainly not a post secondary education.
 
2013-07-24 11:09:23 AM  

Carousel Beast: verbaltoxin: JeffreyScott: The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments.  Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.

No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

A $180,000 degree from Barry College is great, but maybe pursuing that degree at a costs of $30,000 at an in-state public institution is a wiser decision, especially if there is no difference in earning potential.

People keep saying this like we don't have museums, research centers, libraries and galleries. Yeah the turnover in some of these jobs is low, but there is a need to replace curators, librarians, archivists and professors. They all die/retire sometime. These places are storehouses of our history. I don't know why you'd want that neglected. It's not all on Google, trust me.

Also making the government pour tons of people into a select group of degrees will oversaturate those degree fields, and dry up opportunities. I am on board with incentives to apply for a medical, scientific or technical degree, but basing the entire mandate on it is going to make you wind up with tons of useless engineering and nursing grads who can't be placed anywhere. The same sh*t is already happening to law and business, so why encourage that elsewhere?

I know it's hard to picture that because the STEM fields need people now, but it can, in fact happen.

Another thing: some of us art majors went into other fields, and got other skills qualifying us to ...


It does, but it happens. I don't care. It's Fark. Most of these people have already made up their minds when they saw there was a thread on this topic.

Anyway, I already said I agreed with providing incentives to STEM degrees. I'm open to that. I didn't dismiss it. I said I wasn't for making it a mandate, so colleges pour millions into what would eventually be a saturated market. Incentives, like lower fees, lower APR, loans dischargeable under specific conditions - I'm for that.

If there's a "critical need" for a certain field, then make the incentives better. If not, then there should be a "standard rate." But that index has to change over time, so there has to be a mechanism in place to make sure we adjust as needed to reflect the market. As I mentioned, even the slow-moving art and lit. fields will need new personnel someday, and the best colleges aren't cheap.

Regarding non-college fields, yes, we should incentivize those too. I understand from my own experiences that certain jobs, like network administration, require more trade skills than classroom skills. Hell, I hated trying to learn a programming language in a classroom. I think that's a terrible environment to teach that skill.
 
2013-07-24 11:10:39 AM  

FarkedOver: You won't get change from a ballot box


For all their douchebaggery, the Teabaggers are proving you wrong on that point. Primary challenges for any politician who doesn't represent them the way they want is certainly shifting the GOP position.

Perhaps if Democrats spent a little less time fussing about what the GOP are doing and tried holding their own representatives to account in similar fashion, rather than consistently retreating behind a 'lesser of two evils' defense, they might actually get somewhere.
 
2013-07-24 11:11:58 AM  

raerae1980: I filed bankruptcy a few years ago specifically so I could handle my student loans. Sucks but I had to do it.   I knew in my last year of grad school that I was sinking in debt and would not be able to handle all of it once my deferment ended.  If I had a choice I would have discharged my loans but kept the credit cards.


You know you are bad at math when you're bankrupt before you even finish accruing the deb!
 
2013-07-24 11:13:00 AM  

HipsterTrash: Fark all of you, I make money to go to College. 1500 a month from the GI Bill for Active Duty service and 100% tuition is paid by my States National Guard. If someone wants to go to school for free there are ways to do it. You have to work to do it though, I know that all you liberal farking turds don't want to that though.


Not bad.... you would've scored a little higher if you wrote "librul" or "damn libs" instead.

7.65/10

Gabrielmot: I have a BS in CS. Outside my office, I see seas of cubicles filled with Medical Doctors.


I have my fourth grade diploma and a GED in Law.  Outside my sumptuous corner office, I see you peering from your lowly associate office over an ocean of MDs in cubicles, liberal arts graduates begging for change and holders of masters degrees foraging in dumpsters in some dystopian setting that exists only in your own mind.
 
2013-07-24 11:14:19 AM  

And I've just finished my milk: FarkedOver: You won't get change from a ballot box

For all their douchebaggery, the Teabaggers are proving you wrong on that point. Primary challenges for any politician who doesn't represent them the way they want is certainly shifting the GOP position.

Perhaps if Democrats spent a little less time fussing about what the GOP are doing and tried holding their own representatives to account in similar fashion, rather than consistently retreating behind a 'lesser of two evils' defense, they might actually get somewhere.


Because of gerry mandering, Democrats have to get more people to vote for them per capita to win or hold a seat compared to a Republican. Splitting the ticket in a primary battle could cause the Democrat to lose.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-18/republicans-foil-what-most- u- s-wants-with-gerrymandering.html
 
2013-07-24 11:14:49 AM  

FarkedOver: The "evil" loan and the cost of education are hand in glove.  They are both actors on the same stage performing for the same outcome; profit at the expense of those least likely to afford it.  I understand this is the nature vampiritic nature of capitalism, which is why I have become increasingly more anti-capitalist


Now I understand.
 
2013-07-24 11:15:39 AM  

fortheloveofgod: FarkedOver: The "evil" loan and the cost of education are hand in glove.  They are both actors on the same stage performing for the same outcome; profit at the expense of those least likely to afford it.  I understand this is the nature vampiritic nature of capitalism, which is why I have become increasingly more anti-capitalist

Now I understand.


Cool :)
 
2013-07-24 11:16:18 AM  

verbaltoxin: WhippingBoy: The bottom line is that if you're racking up 5 or 6 figures in student loan debt in order to get a Bachelor's degree in History or English Lit, you're part of the problem.

That's because the country's biggest and best facilities for literature and history aren't cheap. Eventually, someone will be in charge of researching, archiving, studying and sharing that data, and it won't be a server admin. It'll be an historian, archivist, or professor who may require server admin. knowledge to do it.

So yeah, somebody has to pay the 5-6 figures and get their English Lit. degree, so they can eventually become the Ph. D responsible for what is only the collective written history of our species.

/But tell me more about how engineers can think critically.


Are literature and history different for differing levels of fees?  You seem to be arguing not that more expensive Universities may have better instructors, but that those Universities are worth more solely because they are more expensive. I've known a number of librarians and curators, and the majority came from reasonably-priced schools.
 
2013-07-24 11:17:17 AM  
Because entitled, bootstrappiness, welfare queen, refrigerators, rims, bling bling.

/did I get them all?
 
2013-07-24 11:18:50 AM  
Because we are livestock on a corporate-owned free-range tax farm called "the United States of America."

We are livestock, being farmed for our productivity.  Human livestock is the most valuable livestock there is, but there's one problem -- they won't work as much when they are not compelled to work, through debt and constantly-depreciating currency (which must be used to pay "taxes").  So, taxes and debt are imposed, in order to motivate people to work more.  Debt is the modern whip, to motivate the workers.

That's all "national debt" is -- a mechanism for imposing debt obligations on future generations of livestock, who incidentally can't complain.  (Not that voting matters.  The little suggestion box they put out every 4 years is just for show.)  National debt is the modern replacement for multi-generational debt obligations.  It ensures that the young will work.

College debt is especially useful for our corporate owners, because it targets young people, who work more and earn less, thus are less valuable as a resource for revenue via income taxes.  College loans is a means of imposing an increased level of debt.tax obligations on young people, regardless of how much they earn.

Now that Obama has cut out the middle-man and made young people indebted directly to the national corporate State, the State will (of course) eventually offer other ways that young people can buy their freedom.  Military service, for example, or other forms of direct State-controlled labor.
 
2013-07-24 11:18:58 AM  

tommyl66: Because fark you, that's why.


well I for one don't see any problem with letting young people with few if any assets borrow thousands of dollars then discharge that debt with no real consequences.
 
2013-07-24 11:22:36 AM  

Mikey1969: Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...


Bootstraps!
 
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