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(Philly.com)   25-year study of crack babies: It turns out that poverty, not crack, is whack   (articles.philly.com) divider line 84
    More: Interesting, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, crack babies, Jaimee Drakewood, young adulthood, poverty, crack epidemic, substance abuses, Albert Einstein Medical Center  
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8552 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jul 2013 at 5:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-22 05:29:52 PM
On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?
 
2013-07-22 05:32:46 PM

miss diminutive: On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?


By the time I was 7 I had seen someone arrested, heard gunshots, and seen a dead body up close and personal.  I grew up in middle-class white-ville.  If one exposure counts, then I guess I must have been a poverty-stricken inner-city dweller and I didn't know it.
 
2013-07-22 05:39:39 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: miss diminutive: On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?

By the time I was 7 I had seen someone arrested, heard gunshots, and seen a dead body up close and personal.  I grew up in middle-class white-ville.  If one exposure counts, then I guess I must have been a poverty-stricken inner-city dweller and I didn't know it.


Wow, I've never seen most of those things even now. I don't think I even saw anyone arrested (in person) until I was in high school.
 
2013-07-22 05:59:22 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: miss diminutive: On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?

By the time I was 7 I had seen someone arrested, heard gunshots, and seen a dead body up close and personal.  I grew up in middle-class white-ville.  If one exposure counts, then I guess I must have been a poverty-stricken inner-city dweller and I didn't know it.


Your dad took you took an Eagles game too?
 
2013-07-22 05:59:34 PM

miss diminutive: Benevolent Misanthrope: miss diminutive: On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?

By the time I was 7 I had seen someone arrested, heard gunshots, and seen a dead body up close and personal.  I grew up in middle-class white-ville.  If one exposure counts, then I guess I must have been a poverty-stricken inner-city dweller and I didn't know it.

Wow, I've never seen most of those things even now. I don't think I even saw anyone arrested (in person) until I was in high school.


You didn't go to a funeral, camping, nor sporting/Holiday events when you were a kid?
 
2013-07-22 06:00:25 PM
No, subby, crack is still whack. Why do you think all those folks are in poverty, shooting/getting shot and lying dead in the streets?
 
2013-07-22 06:02:51 PM
Good news, pregnant women! The crack bar is now officially open!
 
2013-07-22 06:04:32 PM
Is [OBVIOUS] on vacation?
 
2013-07-22 06:04:38 PM
Statement from the local hipster: "I knew this 26 years ago before it went public. You probably never even heard of crack, let alone about no babies back THEN, dude."
 
2013-07-22 06:04:45 PM

netweavr: miss diminutive: Benevolent Misanthrope: miss diminutive: On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?

By the time I was 7 I had seen someone arrested, heard gunshots, and seen a dead body up close and personal.  I grew up in middle-class white-ville.  If one exposure counts, then I guess I must have been a poverty-stricken inner-city dweller and I didn't know it.

Wow, I've never seen most of those things even now. I don't think I even saw anyone arrested (in person) until I was in high school.

You didn't go to a funeral, camping, nor sporting/Holiday events when you were a kid?


I had been to a funeral, but the body was only displayed inside. Once they were taken outside the casket was closed. The study mentioned seeing a dead body outside, I figure they meant children who had seen victims of crimes or fatal accidents.

I did go camping but there were no guns involved.
 
2013-07-22 06:06:38 PM
images1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-07-22 06:08:24 PM

miss diminutive: netweavr: miss diminutive: Benevolent Misanthrope: miss diminutive: On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?

By the time I was 7 I had seen someone arrested, heard gunshots, and seen a dead body up close and personal.  I grew up in middle-class white-ville.  If one exposure counts, then I guess I must have been a poverty-stricken inner-city dweller and I didn't know it.

Wow, I've never seen most of those things even now. I don't think I even saw anyone arrested (in person) until I was in high school.

You didn't go to a funeral, camping, nor sporting/Holiday events when you were a kid?

I had been to a funeral, but the body was only displayed inside. Once they were taken outside the casket was closed. The study mentioned seeing a dead body outside, I figure they meant children who had seen victims of crimes or fatal accidents.

I did go camping but there were no guns involved.


Fair point on the "outside" caveat, I missed that.

You never saw an arrest at a sporting event, parade, fireworks show? Or even a guy getting a DUI on the side of the freeway?
 
2013-07-22 06:15:31 PM
Butbutbut ...it's so much easier to blame personal choices!!!
 
2013-07-22 06:15:35 PM
Here for the South Park reference... leaving satisfied...
 
2013-07-22 06:15:37 PM
ihatepeacocks.com
 
2013-07-22 06:16:36 PM
IQ is hereditary. Smart people have smart kids, and people with higher IQs earn higher salaries.  And, as this study shows, vice versa..
/Freakonomics
 
2013-07-22 06:23:24 PM

rkiller1: IQ is hereditary. Smart people have smart kids, and people with higher IQs earn higher salaries.  And, as this study shows, vice versa..
/Freakonomics


yes, our society is a perfect meritocracy. thanks for pointing that out.

2/10
 
2013-07-22 06:26:20 PM
Yeah for Dr. Claire Coles.  Good to see her mentioned in conjunction with this.  She has been a Godsend for my first kid, an extreme premie, who was ta-da, crack addicted.  She has been able to show us when to be upset at bio-mom for doing a buffet of drugs, and when to just chalk his stuff up to being a premie.  And she also knows how to bully public school boards for more teacher training and mainstreaming.  She's a feisty old coot, and deserves sainthood for her patience.
 
2013-07-22 06:27:57 PM
Have they tried this with other drugs (Besides the Nurse that studied prego moms in Jamaica who smoke pot, with no side effects...ie no weed babies?)
 
2013-07-22 06:29:47 PM

rkiller1: IQ is hereditary.


um...no, it's not.  need spurs growth.  smart people with nothing to challenge them tend to not be smart for very long.
 
2013-07-22 06:34:52 PM

Weaver95: rkiller1: IQ is hereditary.

um...no, it's not.  need spurs growth.  smart people with nothing to challenge them tend to not be smart for very long.


Is that why stoners are so dumb?
 
2013-07-22 06:35:03 PM

miss diminutive: netweavr: miss diminutive: Benevolent Misanthrope: miss diminutive: On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?

By the time I was 7 I had seen someone arrested, heard gunshots, and seen a dead body up close and personal.  I grew up in middle-class white-ville.  If one exposure counts, then I guess I must have been a poverty-stricken inner-city dweller and I didn't know it.

Wow, I've never seen most of those things even now. I don't think I even saw anyone arrested (in person) until I was in high school.

You didn't go to a funeral, camping, nor sporting/Holiday events when you were a kid?

I had been to a funeral, but the body was only displayed inside. Once they were taken outside the casket was closed. The study mentioned seeing a dead body outside, I figure they meant children who had seen victims of crimes or fatal accidents.

I did go camping but there were no guns involved.


Also, I never had any friends like when I was twelve. Christ, does anyone?
 
2013-07-22 06:35:59 PM

Aristocles: No, subby, crack is still whack. Why do you think all those folks are in poverty, shooting/getting shot and lying dead in the streets?


That misses the point, actually. The point is that there is no biochemical basis for saying crack is whack on children. The fact that is may be whack on adults is in part a function of the political system making it illegal leading to many of the socially deleterious effects you note.
 
2013-07-22 06:39:24 PM

netweavr: Weaver95: rkiller1: IQ is hereditary.

um...no, it's not.  need spurs growth.  smart people with nothing to challenge them tend to not be smart for very long.

Is that why stoners are so dumb?


Stoners are dumb because they don't have anything challenging to do?  Have you ever tried doing something while stoned?  EVERYTHING is challenging.  This is why I always smoke a big bowl before doing Sudoku or crosswords or various mind puzzles- I like to dial up the difficulty level.  It's like ankle-weights for your brain.
 
2013-07-22 06:48:42 PM
politics, lack of wealth leads to books being kryptonite to people.

I see.
 
2013-07-22 06:51:29 PM

miss diminutive: On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?


No, the poor portions of pretty much every city was like that, and it hasn't changed all that much in my lifetime. Being poor in America sucks.
 
2013-07-22 06:52:56 PM

legion_of_doo: politics, lack of wealth leads to books being kryptonite to people.

I see.


I doubt it.
 
2013-07-22 06:53:28 PM
Weaver95:   smart people with nothing to challenge them tend to not be smart for very long.

There is no convincing evidence that this is true in a general sense (IQ) though there is plenty of evidence that this is true in regards to specific cognitive tasks (such as working memory). Moreover, there is new research coming from psychologists who work in the area of observational learning that question whether or not a challenge is even necessary. It is not practice that makes perfect but the repeated observation of perfect practice that leads to perfect performance.
 
2013-07-22 06:54:26 PM
Old news is really really f*cking old.
 
2013-07-22 06:55:12 PM

Fano: Also, I never had any friends like when I was twelve. Christ, does anyone?


SO close!

Read The Corner by Simon and Burns.  It details a lot of the generational poverty issues which effectively lay waste to most "boot-starp" arguments.  It's sobering.
 
2013-07-22 06:59:23 PM

FormlessOne: Being poor in America sucks.


Really?

Funny, I see very fat poor people all the time, driving decent cars on their way to the mall.

I bet some really poor folks in Bangladesh or Sudan might disagree with you.

/perspective
 
2013-07-22 07:03:33 PM

miss diminutive: On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?


Basically, yeah. The 80s were a Gilded Age in a lot of ways, and it was not a good time to be in a major American city. I would go to Times Square now, I would not have gone then. Same with the downtown areas of most cities.

Vegas was safe then, because if you messed with the tourists, you were messing with the mob's money, and that's never a recipe for a fun time.

But urban America used to be rough. Credit where it's due- Rudy Guliani did a lot to help that.
 
2013-07-22 07:08:14 PM

FarkinHostile: FormlessOne: Being poor in America sucks.

Really?

Funny, I see very fat poor people all the time, driving decent cars on their way to the mall.

I bet some really poor folks in Bangladesh or Sudan might disagree with you.

/perspective


I'd change it to "Being poor in urban areas sucks", especially since with COL, you're still too rich for welfare (or having serious, serious problems making rent, much less food).  Being poor everywhere else merely sucks.

/Sure, the drunk next door ended up drinking himself to death and not being found for a month, but we never heard gunfire, saw anyone arrested (It helped that we had a true small-town police force that was more often helping old folks carry in their groceries than actually arresting people.  You've heard of the myth of the good cop.  Farmington, MI is where they're at) or saw a dead body.  That was for Detroit proper.
 
2013-07-22 07:15:09 PM

worlddan: Weaver95:   smart people with nothing to challenge them tend to not be smart for very long.

There is no convincing evidence that this is true in a general sense (IQ) though there is plenty of evidence that this is true in regards to specific cognitive tasks (such as working memory). Moreover, there is new research coming from psychologists who work in the area of observational learning that question whether or not a challenge is even necessary. It is not practice that makes perfect but the repeated observation of perfect practice that leads to perfect performance.


I was gonna retort something similar, though less completely and eloquently, but then remembered this is Fark.  Frekonomics covered this well-researched topic, too.
 
2013-07-22 07:30:08 PM
At age 4, for instance, the average IQ of the cocaine-exposed children was 79.0 and the average IQ for the nonexposed children was 81.9. Both numbers are well below the average of 90 to 109 for U.S. children in the same age group.

The article is charitable for phrasing it in that way.  Because intelligence is plotted on a bell curve, at 80 only 9% of the population will be lower.  High functioning individuals with down syndrome can hit 80.
 
2013-07-22 07:30:31 PM
Solution?

Lower taxes, obviously!
 
2013-07-22 07:36:22 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: miss diminutive: On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time.

Holy shiat. Philadelphia in the 90s was essentially Gotham City before Batman?

By the time I was 7 I had seen someone arrested, heard gunshots, and seen a dead body up close and personal.  I grew up in middle-class white-ville.  If one exposure counts, then I guess I must have been a poverty-stricken inner-city dweller and I didn't know it.


Ya man when I was 5 I saw a drunk native woman slit her old mans throat with a broken chunk of glass on their lawn.
lousy neighbous. Grew up in a gang household. Had those crappy old scales with the spring in them just sitting around the house. Pounds of weed sitting out in plain view.

Also Im canadian. Grew up in thunder bay till I was 10.
Survived off welfare with my mom. Spent the weekends with my wildman of a dad

Hell that was long before crack was even a thing this far north. Gangsters and ghettos are everywhere.
 
2013-07-22 07:36:51 PM

Aristocles: No, subby, crack is still whack. Why do you think all those folks are in poverty, shooting/getting shot and lying dead in the streets?


Um... because it's physically addictive and illegal? That was a trick question, right?
 
2013-07-22 07:41:43 PM
Subby's spelling is wack.
 
2013-07-22 07:51:22 PM

worlddan: Weaver95:   smart people with nothing to challenge them tend to not be smart for very long.

There is no convincing evidence that this is true in a general sense (IQ) though there is plenty of evidence that this is true in regards to specific cognitive tasks (such as working memory). Moreover, there is new research coming from psychologists who work in the area of observational learning that question whether or not a challenge is even necessary. It is not practice that makes perfect but the repeated observation of perfect practice that leads to perfect performance.


I would say, from my own experience and watching smart people in unchallenged situations, however, that lack of challenge tends to feed on itself, making smart people (or dumb people) less creative, innovative, and flexible in their responses--which may or may not be the same thing as "intelligence" on an IQ test.  Sitting around gaping at a TV as opposed to reading or making a birdhouse, over time, is going to make a person less "intelligent"--but whether that will impact their IQ in the long term is anyone's guess.

By the same token, take a cognitively impaired person (whether from retardation or injury) and give them tasks of increasing difficulty, and their creative responses will improve--but again, their IQ test scores may not increase significantly.
 
2013-07-22 07:53:58 PM
So the GOP cutting SNAP is a ploy to breed a new base?
 
2013-07-22 07:54:00 PM
They need to do way instain mother> who poison their babbys.
 
2013-07-22 08:01:28 PM
So we were lied to by the Government and the media in the 80's and 90's.
Shocked I tell you, shocked I am.

Do I have to reiterate that it was the CIA who introduced Crack to the inner
cities.  They knew what they were doing, implementing a highly addictive
substance, install gun shops on every corner, supply just enough to different
sections of town to incite conflict between commercial entities, profit from
the arrests. 

The federal government created the gang war, feeds the drug war, and profits
off the misery of Americans they put into poverty and arrest.  The slavery
of the 21st century.
 
2013-07-22 08:04:11 PM
 Well that's no use to anyone. You can't arrest people and search their shiat w/o a warrant for being poor.... at least not yet any way. Get out of here and come back when you have something we can use.
 
2013-07-22 08:17:35 PM
The next time one of your "Libertarian" or "Fiscally Conservative" friends biatch about how poor people are just leeches and want to do nothing but take government money, have them read this paragraph FTFA:

"As the children grew, the researchers did many evaluations to tease out environmental factors that could be affecting their development. On the upside, they found that children being raised in a nurturing home - measured by such factors as caregiver warmth and affection and language stimulation - were doing better than kids in a less nurturing home. On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time. Those children who reported a high exposure to violence were likelier to show signs of depression and anxiety and to have lower self-esteem."

When you grow up in a state of constant violence and instability, you're not going to get good grades, you're not going to finish high school, and you're probably going to be involved with some form of crime.  Government programs and support are the only way any of these kids have even a snowball's chance in hell to do better than their parents.
 
2013-07-22 08:21:12 PM

valkore: The next time one of your "Libertarian" or "Fiscally Conservative" friends biatch about how poor people are just leeches and want to do nothing but take government money, have them read this paragraph FTFA:

"As the children grew, the researchers did many evaluations to tease out environmental factors that could be affecting their development. On the upside, they found that children being raised in a nurturing home - measured by such factors as caregiver warmth and affection and language stimulation - were doing better than kids in a less nurturing home. On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time. Those children who reported a high exposure to violence were likelier to show signs of depression and anxiety and to have lower self-esteem."

When you grow up in a state of constant violence and instability, you're not going to get good grades, you're not going to finish high school, and you're probably going to be involved with some form of crime.  Government programs and support are the only way any of these kids have even a snowball's chance in hell to do better than their parents.


8 generations later and they're doing so much better.
 
2013-07-22 08:27:40 PM

Gyrfalcon: .

I would say, from my own experience and watching smart people in unchallenged situations, however, that lack of challenge tends to feed on itself, making smart people (or dumb people) less creative, innovative, and flexible in their responses


Of course. This one major reason why High School GPA remains a better predictor of college success than tests like the ACT or SAT. A test can only measure capacity in the abstract, GPA measures how that capacity is implemented in practice within an academic environment and takes account of factors such as motivation, creativity, and memory that standardized test score do not measure.

http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/21/crossing-the-finish-line-the-sur pr ising-facts-about-high-school-gpas/
 
2013-07-22 08:37:58 PM

valkore: The next time one of your "Libertarian" or "Fiscally Conservative" friends biatch about how poor people are just leeches and want to do nothing but take government money, have them read this paragraph FTFA:

"As the children grew, the researchers did many evaluations to tease out environmental factors that could be affecting their development. On the upside, they found that children being raised in a nurturing home - measured by such factors as caregiver warmth and affection and language stimulation - were doing better than kids in a less nurturing home. On the downside, they found that 81 percent of the children had seen someone arrested; 74 percent had heard gunshots; 35 percent had seen someone get shot; and 19 percent had seen a dead body outside - and the kids were only 7 years old at the time. Those children who reported a high exposure to violence were likelier to show signs of depression and anxiety and to have lower self-esteem."

When you grow up in a state of constant violence and instability, you're not going to get good grades, you're not going to finish high school, and you're probably going to be involved with some form of crime.  Government programs and support are the only way any of these kids have even a snowball's chance in hell to do better than their parents.


I have a more modest proposal
 
2013-07-22 08:45:01 PM

legion_of_doo: politics, lack of wealth leads to books being kryptonite to people.

I see.


Y'know, an awful lot of my schoolmates were pretty well-to-do and privileged, and books were kryptonite to them too. Oddly enough, not too many of them ended up poor.
 
2013-07-22 08:52:58 PM
maybe it's CIGARETTTES not CRACK.  that is WHACK.  just sayin
 
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