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(Fark)   Has anyone ever convinced you to change from being conservative to being liberal (or vice versa)?   (fark.com) divider line 145
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1363 clicks; posted to Politics » on 22 Jul 2013 at 2:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2013-07-22 12:32:39 AM
15 votes:
The more I hear conservatives babble about their hatred and fear and narrow-mindedness and misogyny, the more I want to be exactly the opposite of them.
2013-07-22 12:15:13 AM
12 votes:
The older I get, the more liberal I get.
2013-07-22 12:14:30 AM
10 votes:
No, I can't be conservative because I actually care about other human beings.

And take it to the politics tab, troll.
2013-07-22 12:43:06 AM
8 votes:
Once I realized that conservatives are horribly selfish people, I realized I didn't want to be one.
2013-07-22 01:17:42 AM
7 votes:

feckingmorons: Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.


Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay? Fifteen percent of people in this country live below the poverty line. That's slightly less than one in six people. When you're below the poverty line, going to a primary care physician may involve choosing between dinner or medical care. In 2011, twenty-three percent of children in America lived below the poverty line. You're  fooling yourself if you think that every one of those children can just have their parents pick up the phone and get  free primary care.

Do you think that the tiny little clinic that dispenses blood pressure medication can pay for chemotherapy when a poor person finds out they have cancer? Do you think the clinic is just going to dispense free health care when little Timmy breaks his leg and needs to go on crutches for a month? When a twenty-year-old in deep poverty finds out that her birth control failed, do you think that the free clinic is just going to help her give birth? When Great-Uncle Jim gets diagnosed with Type II Diabetes, is the clinic going to provide free dialysis for him?

The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care. Every study done in America shows that. In rural areas, and deeply impoverished urban areas, people  die because they can't afford medications. They get sick and they lose their jobs because they can't afford to take a day off of work in order to address a small problem which soon grows into a big one with neglect. And there you are pointing at them and telling them that they just need to  work harder, damn it, because that will somehow make it better.

The rest of your argument boils down to "Because 5-10% of humans scam the system, we should therefore refuse to provide for the 90-95% who do everything right." Which is a nihilistic and somewhat petty argument, don't you think?
2013-07-22 03:34:08 AM
6 votes:
*PAGING WEAVER95*

*PAGING WEAVER95*

Seriously though, he made a fascinating transition. He went from being one of the more abrasive right-wing characters on Fark to being one of the most engaging and interesting regular posters on the website.

I wouldn't say that that was a Conservative to Liberal conversion, but he certainly converted into something I think is pretty awesome.
2013-07-22 12:47:55 AM
6 votes:

feckingmorons: SuperTramp: feckingmorons

And goats. I want goats.

Everyone wants goats.

I actually think I might be a liberal who doesn't like to pay taxes.


Look, despite the propaganda you have have heard, no one likes to pay taxes. It's just that a lot of us see it as a necessary evil to maintain things that contribute to the common good.
2013-07-22 01:07:33 AM
5 votes:
I've always been ultra liberal, but as I've gotten older I've been able to more clearly see why some people have different political philosophies than my own. I don't agree with them, but I'm not as kneejerk dismissive of disagreement as I may once have been.
2013-07-22 12:37:54 AM
5 votes:

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


Me too. I basically see too many conservatives clinging to their idea of a past that never really was without adding much of substance to the discussion while liberals stumble in the main but still make progress towards a better future.

I've seen society evolve a lot in my lifetime so far and it's practically all due to progressive liberal beliefs which have made their progress despite the naysaying, foot dragging and open rejection by conservative forces.
2013-07-22 06:21:29 AM
4 votes:
I used to be hard core right wing christian conservative.  it wasn't 'one thing' that convinced me to change...unless that 'one thing' was several prominent conservatives.  it was more of a process.  lies and contradictions piles up so high and so far that I simply could not ignore the evidence any longer.  everything I'd been told was a lie.  church leaders were lying to me about their greed and lust.  Republican leaders dragged us into a war on a whim, then lied about the causes.  Corporate america sold us out for $50 and a bag of cheetos.  Conservatives weren't 'small government', they just wanted the government to control certain people and activities.  And there was simply no reason, logical or scientific, to keep cannabis illegal.  Eventually all those lies, contradictions and paradoxes added up to something I couldn't ignore.  and once I'd accepted that the GOP was lying to me....the rest sort of fell into place.
2013-07-22 01:17:30 AM
4 votes:

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.

Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and cheat. We have a great country, we help those that truly need it, but it seems that the percentage of liars and cheats is just getting larger and larger. We now have two people who scammed money out of the Boston bombing fund, people who ship food bought with SNAP overseas. I'm just tired of the cheating, it isn't fair to those of us who don't cheat.


So the tiny percentage of those who cheat--who just happen to most often be from the most impoverished segment of our society--provides you the justification to turn your back on healthcare insurance programs meant to help millions of people in need. Rather than concentrate on the small number of miscreants who con any social program, why not concentrate on all those people who do not cheat the system?

I think many conservatives highlight the small percentage of cheaters simply to give themselves an out when they decide to turn their backs on the common good. They can feign moral outrage AND keep their money from helping other people.
2013-07-22 12:54:41 AM
4 votes:

feckingmorons: I actually think I might be a liberal who doesn't like to pay taxes.


Naw, you're not a liberal who doesn't like to pay taxes. Nor a patriot either.

We got into two wars during Bush II and the Republican Congress. They also cut taxes in 2001 (good-bye budget surplus) and in 2003 after we invaded Iraq. Paying taxes to cover the wars and to keep us in surplus to pay down debt would have been patriotic.

/Being patriotic is more than just sending somebody else's kids to fight in wars.
2013-07-22 04:03:58 AM
3 votes:
I was extremely conservative due to my upbringing until about 18 years old. I decided I wanted to learn more about the conservative cause, so I started listening to to talk radio, namely Laura Ingram and Rush Limbaugh. I was never religious but I could appreciate the ideals of smaller government and personal responsibility. But the longer and closer I listened (i was just reaching the age that I could even appreciate the meaning of half the stuff they were talking about.)  I began noticing that there wasn't a whole lot of actual news  or information being shared, just hour long rants about how THEY (liberals, gays, atheists, scientists, aliens, etc) were out to destroy the true Americans.  I began researching all of these horrendous plagues that the liberal agenda was releasing into society, and realized very quickly that about 98.9% of the Wharbergharble was pure fear mongering.  So in a weird way i feel like I should thank Rush for converting me.  To bad it makes it extremely difficult to talk with my parents about ANY topic, as they usually feel the need to let me know what Fox News has to say on the matter.
2013-07-22 02:35:21 AM
3 votes:

feckingmorons: Yes I realize they are not related, and they did a similar thing with Florida PD's budgets until they put up a stink. Luckily they are elected and can get away with that.

We are allowing our elected representatives to bullshiat us all day long with nonsense. They are doing things like investigating the IRS, immigration reform, what to do about Syria. Who gives a shiat about Syria, those people over there have been killing each other for millenia, we won't ever stop it.

Worry about this country. Worry that companies are closing left and right, worry that we have a federal rasin reserve that charges rasin farmers to grow rasins, worry about the shiat that keeps us from working. Worry about public employee pensions that are bankrupting cities and counties and find a solution that doesn't screw the worker or the city - find some middle ground. Quit growing the government for the purpose of taxing us


And that's the fundamental difference right there. You think the purpose of more government is to tax people. I think the purpose of larger government is to provide more services for people who need them. I think we're in fundamental agreement that a whole lot of government is badly managed, and priorities are often misplaced.

I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but I strongly get the sense from you that your  preferred solution would be to just  get rid of the programs. Whereas mine would be to  fix them.
2013-07-22 02:22:43 AM
3 votes:
My opinion on the death penalty has changed over time. Less about other folks' arguments, and more about understanding the issue better. I still think that removing folks from the gene pool is not a terrible thing. It's not perhaps forgiving, but I am not a really good Buddhist in that sense. Maybe I spent too much time on the floor when I was bouncing, maybe my father being a soldier, and coming from a long line of soldiers, I have perhaps a more fluid sense of justice. What I did come to realize is that given the faults within our criminal justice system, there is too much room for error, and given the sentencing trends that tend to be more harsh on some folks of economic background, and ethnicity, we have issues that are attached to how the death penalty is carried out in this country. That application has too much room for error, and margin is too great for me to be able to support the death penalty, because while I full well understand the desire for retribution and justice being served, it's not justice if it's applied in a fashion that is patently unfair.

I sometimes get complaints from folks that I don't fit the typical "Conservative" mode, in that I don't hold to the the current party rhetoric. I like to think that I come from a model of Conservatism that is perhaps not in vogue, but has deeper underpinnings than the current and somewhat plastic platform that uses some convoluted reasoning to undermine the past trends. Be that on matters of economics--yes, indeed, Voodoo Economics is still not my favorite thing, and if we want to get our budgets in line, we have to do more than spend, and tax, we also have to spend wisely. That means investing a bit, for future profit. In education, in wise use of regulation, in wise use of taxation. That is less a "liberal" or "conservative" estimation, than taking a look at the structures that are in place, our current needs, and projecting for future needs as well.
In part, I hold to a Conservative model that is perhaps "outdated" by some in the party, who feel that to preserve "Conservatism" we have to do the opposite of what "Liberals" want. And that sort of reactionism is NOT a foundation for any sane policy.

Conservatism used to mean considered and careful policy. To be against simple reactionary hysteria that led to over-reaction, and crafting policy based on fear and populism. It still does to some, but they are getting fewer and fewer within the GOP. That is why I registered Independent, because the GOP no longer stands for careful and considered policy, but rather has been taken over, and has been in the hands of folks in the leadership who are very much radicals, and radicals to the right, which leads to just as many dark places as radical to the left. Radicalism itself should be anathema to sane Conservative thought. And at this point, it's not. Rather, the radicals have redefined what "Conservatism" means in the public mind, and that shift towards a radicalized vision that rejects freedom of speech, rejects privacy, rejects freedom of religion--save when it is involved with Christianity, and only the "right" kinds of Christians at that--and really dislikes the whole basis of our law, if it contravenes something that a donor or someone in office REALLY wants NOW. Guns, are apparently OK, and everyone should have them, with the exception of felons of the wrong color or economic background, which is an odd way to pick your battles.

It is less about me shifting or changing, than watching the party radicalize, and then deny that it continues to back policy so long as it has the right appellation behind the name. That sort of turn towards a philosophy that embraces a half assed understanding of "subjective reality" is a hallmark of the NeoCons, and embraced by the Religious Right, who are leading the party into some very dark territory, especially when it is coupled with an increasing reactionary bend, to oppose something simply on the fact that it is brought up by the "wrong" people, even if it's an idea that you embraced only moments before, when it was brought up the "right" people.

THAT isn't so much "Conservative" or "Liberal" as asinine and reactionary, and it is likewise, bone stoopid. I am not really a fan, so if that makes me suddenly a Pinko in some folks' minds, then so be it. Your opinion is noted, and I will take it for all the value that it deserves: which is to say, not very damn much. I instead look to a teacher and a figure that I hold in more esteem, for the teaching of a more critical approach. And right now, Conservatives might do well to use that critical approach in crafting policy, as opposed to simply throwing hissy fits because someone else had an idea that might challenge what you want to do right now, as opposed to its context in actual policy and Constitutionality...

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
--Siddhartha Gutama
2013-07-22 01:10:32 AM
3 votes:
the words "conservative" and "liberal" mean nothing in american politics anymore beyond name calling.
2013-07-22 12:59:18 AM
3 votes:

syrynxx: I don't support fining people who don't purchase 3rd-party health insurance.  The US government has no more right to force me to buy 3rd-party health insurance than it does to force me to buy ketchup or soup or footwear.  It certainly doesn't have the authority to penalize me for not buying a commercial product.


Quit whining like a baby. Congress and President Obama signed it into law. SCOTUS backed them up.

Be a responsible person and buy health insurance like a real American. Quit depending on us taxpayers to foot your bill when you get sick or hurt without coverage.
2013-07-22 12:53:07 AM
3 votes:

Abacus9: If you think conservatives care about small government and less spending, perhaps you don't remember GWB? Starting unnecessary wars, greatly expanding the power of government under the Patriot Act, Defense of Marriage and all that?


Don't forget making government so small they can shove it up a woman's vagina.
2013-07-22 12:45:44 AM
3 votes:

sn82: The theory of small government and not spending as much as democrats do.


I'd prefer that we paid for our spending rather than continually kick the can. The Democrats seem the closest to doing that.
2013-07-22 12:45:23 AM
3 votes:
I think fiscal conservatives with more moderate views don't stand a chance with the right wing extremists ready to cannibalize anyone in their own ranks who even appears to stray from fundamentalist Christian dogma. In today's GOP, it's not good enough to espouse conservative fiscal views. You also have to hate on gays and women and the poor and "freeloaders" who want their SS benefits after decades of paying into the system. Smart people who want to help the country economically don't stand a chance against the moral idiocy block that controls the party.
2013-07-22 12:25:58 AM
3 votes:
EatenTheSun
Life experiences have pushed me to become more libertarian.

I hear you. Who the hell would get pimples, become socially awkward, obese, read Ayn Rand, and live in their mom's basement on purpose?
2013-07-22 12:15:03 AM
3 votes:
No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.
2013-07-22 01:03:09 PM
2 votes:

hubiestubert: It has bred an odd Prosperity Gospel


I am not normally a very angry person, but the Prosperity Gospel just makes me see red.

I think it's because how *completely at odds* it is with the book they claim is the nigh-literal word of god.

I mean, the only people Jesus gets angry at IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE are the moneychangers in the temple. The folks that are making money off religion. The folks coming to take him off to be killed? He heals one. SATAN? Jesus tells him off, but isn't terribly angry. Using religion/religious grounds as a moneymaking scheme? JESUS IS PISSED.
2013-07-22 10:53:37 AM
2 votes:
If you still call yourself a "conservative" after Dubya, the world would be better off without you.
2013-07-22 10:39:25 AM
2 votes:
Moving away from a conservative hotbed made me realize how pants-on-head derpy they were. It's like being freed from a cult.
2013-07-22 08:47:44 AM
2 votes:
Sarah Palin convinced me to stop calling myself a moderate republican.
I'm a liberal now.


/thanks, Sarah
2013-07-22 08:09:28 AM
2 votes:

enderthexenocide: when i was in college in 2001 i considered myself a republican although i didn't really follow politics.  i thought "yeah i like small government and i don't like high taxes and i don't think lazy unemployed people should get welfare."  what can i say, i was young and stupid.  i also hated al gore (and still do) and would have voted for bush (or mccain) in 2000 if i had bothered to vote in that election.  i told one of my friends that was a republican and he outright laughed at me and said "no you're not!" and proceeded to explain to me that my actual politics were strongly liberal and my understanding of republican ideology was very flawed.  i thought republicans believed in being fiscally conservative and supporting mainstream america by helping small business.  that makes me laugh now.  although it wasn't until the political aftermath of 9/11 that i really began to realize how destructive and selfish republican politics are.

conservatives like to joke that college kids are all liberal until they graduate and get a job and start paying taxes, then they become conservative.  but for me it was the exact opposite.  once i got out of school and started living on my own and actually paying attention to politics and the government, i was embarrassed to think i ever thought i was conservative.  i am very liberal and i'm only getting more liberal the older i get.


People in the Baby Boomer generation have tended to fall into the "get more conservative as they get older" category, much like their parents and grandparents. Gen X is sort of 50/50 right now. Millenials appear to be growing more liberal as they reach their 20s and 30s.

I think it's a function of "what did you have when you were growing up?" If you grew up in a time of economic hardship and you had to work hard to get ahead, you tend to feel like everyone should have been able to do what you did and you get annoyed with those who don't earn their place. If you grew up in a time of prosperity and then experienced a downgrade in your 20s and 30s because you couldn't find a good job, you're more likely to be empathetic to others.

I expect that Millenials and their children are going to be far more liberal in their middle age than the Baby Boomers or Gen Xers have been.

That may be one of the reasons that liberalism/conservatism tend to be the endpoints of a cultural pendulum swing -- it takes about 3-4 generations for cultural attitudes to shift.
2013-07-22 07:04:52 AM
2 votes:

Weaver95: I used to be hard core right wing christian conservative.  it wasn't 'one thing' that convinced me to change...unless that 'one thing' was several prominent conservatives.  it was more of a process.  lies and contradictions piles up so high and so far that I simply could not ignore the evidence any longer.  everything I'd been told was a lie.  church leaders were lying to me about their greed and lust.  Republican leaders dragged us into a war on a whim, then lied about the causes.  Corporate america sold us out for $50 and a bag of cheetos.  Conservatives weren't 'small government', they just wanted the government to control certain people and activities.  And there was simply no reason, logical or scientific, to keep cannabis illegal.  Eventually all those lies, contradictions and paradoxes added up to something I couldn't ignore.  and once I'd accepted that the GOP was lying to me....the rest sort of fell into place.


Weaver95: of course, now I"m a moderate 'liberal' democrat and semi-out of the broom closet as a pagan.  so yeah, I went from hard core right wing conservative christian Republican to damn near complete opposite.


I remember when I started posting on the site in early 2004 - I was a very pro-war libertarian.  I find it interesting that there's a measurable movement, even if it's only 5-10% of the population, moving in the opposite direction of the old Churchill "no heart/no brain" axiom.

I also nearly wipe out my keyboard every time I see someone relatively new to the site label you as a liberal.

/it's like watching that kid at Historicon this weekend ask why 40k had "space elves and space orcs" but no "space dwarves"
2013-07-22 04:21:13 AM
2 votes:
When I was age 5-6-7, I frequently heard my parents and their friends talk about President Kennedy saying things like "He is good for the country". "He makes us proud to be Americans"

When I was 12 and Richard Nixon was elected, my science teacher said "I am a Democrat, but I think he will be good because Republicans reduce inflation". That would be 1968.

By 1969, I was in high school and the news was filtering down about college kids protesting the war in Vietnam, people burning draft cards, moratoriums, the Kent State shootings, Edwin Starr's song "War, what is it good for" and all the other anti-war music.

Beyond the war which was the primary issue in the news when I was aged 13-16 I staked other liberal positions that just made sense compared to what the Republicans were offering.

One other influence was listening to my 11th grade history teacher debate a conservative after class, which led me to see that liberal positions made sense. But the only thing I remember was the conservative saying but but but socialism in South America, and my history teacher saying "a little bit of socialism would help South Amrerica"

January 1973, America's fighting in Vietnam ended, but news about Watergate and Nixon sending spies to break in to Daniel Ellsberg's doctor to seek his medical records and the year and a half of Republican bulldog defending that Nixon did no wrong pretty much cemented my view of the parties, and the Republican positions on the issues just were just as sucky.

The Republicans talk freedom, but want to take away a women's right to an abortion in the first trimester. They talk about freedom, but wanted to arrest people for "sodomy" (read:homosexuality). And when Republicans were Dixiecrats, they were against interracial marriage until the Supreme Court cemented it's universal legality.
2013-07-22 02:30:48 AM
2 votes:

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Your posting stuff from the Huffington Post! Pravda is more believable.

Dude. I posted multiple articles from CNN, one from ABC, one directly to Politifact, and one to HuffPo. The HuffPo article was simply reporting the results of a survey done by a third party. If you'd like, here is the survey itself, including methodology. The study was reported on dozens of other news sources, including CNN, MSNBC, USA Today, and many others. Hell, this isn't exactly groundbreaking journalism. Even Glenn Beck's The Blaze has reported on how Americans have very little savings.

Don't shoot the messenger without listening to what he has to say.

Well if we had a functioning economy and there were jobs people could have more savings. PPACA has screwed that possibility in the near future. Even the public library where I worked is no longer hiring anyone at more than 24 hours a week because they would have to insure them.

Kids can't get jobs because adults have to work in McDonalds, and Wendy's and Taco Bell to get enough money to support their families because of the restrictions on hours because of PPACA.


The reason there are fewer jobs is because of downsizing, to save the CEOs money, and Americans have little in the bank because wages stagnate or go down, not in keeping with inflation. The rich have gotten MUCH richer, by taking money from the middle class, causing them to become more poor. Some even want to eliminate the minimum wage. I make the same amount of money now, as a chemist, that my dad made 30 years ago as a janitor. Don't tell me some greed isn't involved.
2013-07-22 02:20:10 AM
2 votes:
The answer to the health care dilemma is pretty simple:

National single payer system - Medicare for everyone

Premiums paid out of taxes at a progressive rate like income taxes (which I'd argue should be higher at the upper income levels as well)

A panel of doctors and experts sets the reimbursement costs at a fair level that lets medical facilities keep the doors open but still minimize costs, adjustments are made every couple years, maybe with a codified COLA adjustment in-between

All medical facilities are required by law to accept the government insurance

All doctors and medical facilities are required by law to perform any treatment to preserve life and quality of life for any patient who comes through the doors.  Appropriate exceptions can be made for the elderly for whom extreme measures would just slightly postpone death by natural causes.

Birth control, vasectomies, and other treatments that serve to save money in the long run would be covered.

Reconstructive plastic surgery (after burns, traumatic injuries, or to address defects such as hare lips) would be covered.

Vanity treatments like breast implants, calf implants, penis enlargements, etc, would have to come out of the patient's pocket
2013-07-22 02:19:49 AM
2 votes:

feckingmorons: Abacus9: That's sort of what he's doing: ignoring the points he doesn't want to answer.

This isn't about me covering each point. The question is have you shifted your political views.

Yet every time I've posted mine I've been attacked, and just like your attacking me for not making a counterpoint to every point someone else makes.

You know what, fark you people. I don't have to defend myself and I sure as hell don't have to help anyone of Total Fark. I've been nice, I've paid people's bills, I've helped explain landlord/tenant problems, I've paid people's rent. I've paid for veterinary medicines.

fark all of you who don't respect my opinions, you don't have to agree, but you could be civil.


I haven't attacked you personally, and neither have most of the others, we're attacking your view point. Trying to make you see the disconnect. Nothing against you personally, you seem like a good person from what others have said.
2013-07-22 02:18:34 AM
2 votes:

feckingmorons: Your posting stuff from the Huffington Post! Pravda is more believable.


Dude. I posted multiple articles from CNN, one from ABC, one directly to Politifact, and one to HuffPo. The HuffPo article was simply reporting the results of a survey done by a third party. If you'd like, here is the survey itself, including methodology. The study was reported on dozens of other news sources, including CNN, MSNBC, USA Today, and many others. Hell, this isn't exactly groundbreaking journalism. Even Glenn Beck's The Blaze has reported on how Americans have very little savings.

Don't shoot the messenger without listening to what he has to say.
2013-07-22 01:47:58 AM
2 votes:

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?

Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.

That an intelligent guy like you who appears to have real compassion for others can spout nonsense like this is really sad. I'm starting to think you have multiple personalities.

What is sad about not wanting to see tax money wasted?

What is sad about the reality that we can't make doctors and nurses and hospitals work for free? They are entitled to wages for their work. We have the best medical care, research, and advancement in the world. If we start (or more correctly continue) to pay physicians $17.86 for a Medicaid office visit, and then impose new requirements on the for electronic medical records, mandatory screenings, review of their decision making by algorithm which requires them to spend uncompensated time that could be used on patient care justifying why they ordered a CT rather than a plain film, we will lose all physicians who will participate in these programs.

The UK has abysmal NHS, and most people who can afford it carry supplemental insurance - BUPA for instance. Do we really want to go there?


What is sad is you defaulting to Rush Limbaugh assholisms like all those poor people showing up at the ER in their Mercedes and designer clothes and Gucci bags looking to steal health care. What is sad is your philosophy that people are entitled to health care only if they can afford it. It stands in sharp contrast to the charity I've seen you show to people in need.
2013-07-22 01:43:48 AM
2 votes:

feckingmorons: Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.


I'm sorry, but your views on the issue are  completely distorted and counter-factual. Here are some statistics. In 2012,  80 million Americans didn't go to the doctor or access needed medical care because of cost. Currently,  40 million Americans "couldn't afford one or more of these services: medical care, prescription medicines, mental health care, dental care, or eyeglasses." Source.

Your viewpoint is distorted by this sort of anecdotal weirdness. It's like, there are 100 people in a room, and you see one of them steal something, and you say "My god, that room is filled with thieves!"  High estimates put Medicare fraud at roughly 8%. But bear in mind that this doesn't mean that eight percent of Medicare  beneficiaries are fraudulent, it means that eight percent of  payments are improper. As Politifact points out, this can be caused by anyone, the doctor, the patient, a third party: "If a doctor orders too many tests, or provides a service but submits the wrong payment code, those come under the umbrella of improper payments." The largest Medicare Fraud in history was done by Florida Governor Rick Scott, for God's sake. Large-scale Medicare fraud is done by corporations, most of the time, like this dialysis center that was just caught overbilling hundreds of millions of dollars.

You also completely missed my point about more serious medical problems not being covered by free medical care. If you're on chemotherapy and all you have is Medicare, you really think you're getting the best treatment? Well, after the recent government sequester, Cancer clinics are turning away thousands of Medicare patients. Where should those patients go?
2013-07-22 01:28:55 AM
2 votes:

SuperTramp: Look, I don't want this to turn into a kickfeckts, because I know you're a good person, but it's a fear we can sense. I know that those of us on the liberal side know what I'm talking about. Fear. Of. The. Other.


To some extent it is fear, but the larger issue is a distinct lack of empathy for others. If most of the rabid conservatives had experienced the same treatment or seen their own loved ones treated that way, they would not behave the same way. You'll note, for instance, how quite a few of the more rabid anti-gay conservatives tone down their rhetoric once a family member comes out.
2013-07-22 01:12:36 AM
2 votes:

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.

Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and ch ...


Why is it that you only link to articles about minorities committing crimes?
2013-07-22 01:11:26 AM
2 votes:
feckingmorons: but it seems that the percentage of liars and cheats is just getting larger and larger.

So you want to talk about the Koch Brothers and ALEC yet?
2013-07-22 01:00:40 AM
2 votes:

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

But you do have to have health care (literally everyone will incur a hospital bill in their lifetime). And someone has to pay for it. So it's either going to be the government and therefore your fellow taxpayers, or it's going to be you.

So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.


Yeah, you can buy a ton of health insurance with the net from those $145/wk service jobs. If you think there aren't millions of people in this country who work hard and take care of families and want to be contributors, not freeloaders, yet are completely hobbled by the lack of decent paying jobs, you are wilfully ignorant of reality.
2013-07-22 12:53:45 AM
2 votes:
Republicans are about as far as you can get from small government and fiscal intelligence. They fiddle and back bite while Rome burns.
2013-07-22 12:53:22 AM
2 votes:
Conservatists are a bunch of assholes
2013-07-22 12:35:36 AM
2 votes:
I was quite conservative when I was young (raised Catholic, later became a born-again Christian; was a Reagan Republican who also voted for Bush the Elder). Bad personal experiences led me to question my faith; that, and learning the history of Christianity and other belief systems made me realize that religion was bullshiat. By the late 1980s, conservative Christians had taken over the GOP (I guess I was more of a Barry Goldwater Republican, now that I think about it), and I quit the party in disgust in 1992.

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


This.
2013-07-22 12:14:50 AM
2 votes:
INSTA GREEN?  WTF?
2013-07-22 07:20:25 PM
1 votes:
I used to be a hardcore right-winger.  In high school government class, we took a political spectrum test and the teacher told me I was the most far-right student he'd ever had.  Of course, I was merely toeing the family party line.  I watched Fox News religiously, listened to Rush Limbaugh, read his books, was a huge fan of Bill O'Reilly, and thought every democratic politician was the scum of the earth.

Then I moved out of state and away from my family's political echo chamber and actually began to think for myself.  At first it was a slow, gradual shift toward the center, but the change hastened as I began to actively ignore propaganda and talking points in favor of actually reading the text of proposed legislation, fact-checking political claims, and began truly caring about the welfare of other people.  Social injustice and (wealth and marriage) inequality became an increasingly sore topics for me.

I'm still registered as "unaffiliated," because my state allows that.  However, with things as they are now, I don't think I could ever vote republican again.  Looking back into the world I once belonged to, all I can see now is the hate that fills it.  It's sad, and I want no part of it.  I guess I'm a democrat now in all but name.
2013-07-22 04:22:14 PM
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: I am not here to teach civics classes.


We know. That would require a fundamental understanding of the subject.
2013-07-22 02:55:51 PM
1 votes:
I'm pretty convinced that both sides are nothing more than puppet shows for the elite to try and control the masses.
2013-07-22 02:39:43 PM
1 votes:
When I was in college, I took a class that went over "Reaganomics".  The professor was quite convincing, and I registered as a republican.  During the 80's, I noticed it wasn't quite working out the way I had been taught.  All it seemed to do was make a lot of "yuppies".  So, I did some research, and figured out that basically (not always, but mostly) if a Republican was in office, we had a good, strong foreign policy.  If a Democrat was in office, we had a good, strong domestic policy.  I was slowly becoming more and more liberal, but I didn't get upset if one side or the other lost an electron.  Both had strong points, they were just different.

Then the 90's, and White Water happened.  Millions of dollars and years of investigation for a BJ.  I switched to a Democrat and never looked back.  Republicans became more and more extreme - I kept waiting for the Republican party to correct itself, but it never happened.  Now they've just gone completely over the edge and seem to be controlled by the lunatic fringe.  There are still some good republicans out there, but their voices are completely drowned out by the fanatics.

These days I consider myself fiscally conservative and socially liberal.  I think people should have safety nets.  I don't think we should waste huge amounts of money providing those safety nets.
2013-07-22 12:55:06 PM
1 votes:

keylock71: If anything, I've become more liberal as I've grown older and learn more... I never would have been considered "conservative" by any stretch of the imagination, to be honest.

Funnily enough, it's the words and actions of conservatives and Republicans that have made me more liberal in the last decade or so.

There was a time, though, when I would have voted for moderate Republicans at the local and state level here in MA, but that time has long since disappeared...


I was certainly conservative when I was a selfish shiathead teenager. I actually thought Atlas Shrugged was a realistic portrayal of the obstacles to American business owners in high school.

Thank god I actually experienced reality since then. Seeing the utter contempt conservatism as a whole has for objective observable reality these days, it makes me sick to remember the things I used to think back then.
2013-07-22 12:34:35 PM
1 votes:

Tyee: The My Little Pony Killer: You don't pay THAT much in taxes.

You really, really have no idea what I pay.

And if taxes weren't automatically taken out of your paycheck ( I'm assuming you get one) and you had to write out a check to the government(s) periodically you wouldn't be happy when you realize how much you do pay.  Pull out a few months of stubs and add up how much you earned but you didn't get.


I understand what you're saying.   All my previous jobs had been as employees where taxes were taken out automatically.  I worked as an independent contractor for a year and had to write a GIANT check to the state and feds to pay taxes.  At that point, it made me understand just a little what all the rich Republicans had been whining about.  It farking hurt to write those checks.  I think that was the first time I felt real powerfully emotional greed.  I got over it quickly.  I happen to love this country and I'm proud to do my share.
2013-07-22 12:19:15 PM
1 votes:

A Dark Evil Omen: Skyrmion: A common thread here seems to be that people who change are more likely to feel pushed away from one side than drawn to the other. I think I'm the same way. It could explain why a lot of politics is so negative, though.

I used to consider myself "liberal" and still do, but I've changed issue-by-issue. I've gone even further left on foreign policy and economic issues, and more libertarian on social issues.

I also have a consistent anti-authority streak that has me leaning a little more left under Republicans (GW Bush was a big one) and more right under Democratic ones.

See, I guess I don't understand how an anti-authoritarian streak pushes one right. Everything rightists push is based in authoritarianism, from social policies to ultra-capitalist economics.


Yeah, maybe I should correct that. It's not so much pushing me "right" as it is the parties themselves adjusting and pushing me to to agree more with the words that come out of Republicans mouths more and Democrats mouths less. This kind of thing drives me nuts, for example:

www.motherjones.com

Somehow I've become closer to Republicans than Democrats on the subject of government surveillance. Never saw that coming.
2013-07-22 12:10:01 PM
1 votes:
A common thread here seems to be that people who change are more likely to feel pushed away from one side than drawn to the other. I think I'm the same way. It could explain why a lot of politics is so negative, though.

I used to consider myself "liberal" and still do, but I've changed issue-by-issue. I've gone even further left on foreign policy and economic issues, and more libertarian on social issues.

I also have a consistent anti-authority streak that has me leaning a little more left under Republicans (GW Bush was a big one) and more right under Democratic ones.
2013-07-22 12:09:22 PM
1 votes:

BojanglesPaladin: Nothing that requires the labor of another person can be a right.


The right to an attorney?
2013-07-22 11:36:18 AM
1 votes:
Stupid Question. Anyone who is "conservative" or "liberal" on every issue is a moron.

Anyone who thinks and is at all informed will fall on either side of the fictitious line between conservative and liberal on any number of unique issues. Beyond that, there are infinite nuances and degrees of "conservative" and "liberal" on each of these individual issues.

Is an environmentalist, limited pro-choice, civil-rights advocate, anti-gay discrimination, anti-gay marriage, small government, pro-public education, pro-gun rights, pro expanded background checks, pro-religion advocate who hates bible thumpers a conservative or a liberal? The answer is neither, because the question is stupid and assumes a false dichotomy.

More than anything else, we, as a nation, need to rid ourselves of this tribal political binary partisanship. We need "conservative" democrats and "liberal" republicans, and independents of no discernible ideology and we need to be evaluating candidates and politicians based on their actual policy and actions rather than just using a letter by their name to assume whether or not they are on our "team" or not.
2013-07-22 11:29:30 AM
1 votes:
I guess it's more accurate to say that what was important to me changed more than the content of my views. Events (data) tend to shape my views more than individual persuasion. I have had some people help clarify their positions, and those positions I found to have merit, so on some set of issues, I have waxed and waned conservative/liberal - and in many ways, I could have been seen as relatively libertarian - though never so much as to think Ron Paul was anything but insane.

I started out a Republican because of my staunch anti-communism and have always been (and remain) hawkish and interventionist. At the start of the '90s, I was working for a conservative "educational" organization (read: lobbying). But after the Cold War ended, I started seeing other issues as being more pressing. In 2000 I voted for Bush. In 2004, I cast my first vote for a Democrat for president - not because he was great but because the Libertarian part of me said you can't let a president get away with the kind of mistake Bush made in Iraq. (It's one thing to be neocon, it's another to implement neocon strategies stupidly.)

Republicans started to shift away from the William F. Buckley, Jr. model of conservatism after 9/11, and it became stark by 2006, the last time I voted for a Republican. The GOP didn't have to lose me. But by 2008, it became clear that the GOP had lost its collective mind. McCain was not the man I voted for in the 2000 primaries, and Palin simply added the whipped cream of retardation on top of the banana split of fail the GOP had become. I joined the Democratic Party because I decided trying to pull Democrats to the right was probably easier than pulling Republicans to the right.

I'm not as economically left as most Democrats. I don't buy into the left/libertarian MIC narrative. I believe way too much in externalities to be a Libertarian. I am almost, but not quite, libertarian in my belief in separation of church and state. (Get over pre-1950 christian monuments on government land. OMG - Who the Hell cares?) Socially, though, I'm pretty liberal. Legalize pot. Legalize gay marriage. Vice laws, for the most part, should go. I'm pro-universal health care - because it's both cheaper and leads to better outcomes than what we do. I like a strong FDA, OSHA, and other federal regulatory agencies. Get rid of most other forms of business distortions like tax incentives and subsidies. Simplify the tax code, especially for businesses.

That concludes my self-important wall of text. Probably, no one should have read through all of that.
2013-07-22 11:16:05 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?

Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.


And why don't we have a right to free health care?  Watch some of this and see what you think.  You don't even have to watch it all, just get to the 2:30 minute mark.  By the way, I'm also a nurse and I work in psych area of the hospital.  We work with a lot of the poor and the elderly and have many, 'repeaters'.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

By the way, I appreciate your respectful tone even having a different opinion.
2013-07-22 10:57:12 AM
1 votes:

jchuffyman: Jesus was a pretty cool dude (or a pretty cool character).


Agreed.  I view him as a philosopher and believe his teachings are very wise, which is the same opinion I have of the Buddha.  Whether or not tales of them were embellished or untrue, the teachings that have survived contain some excellent advice on living a good life, respecting others, and generally following the basic "don't be a dick" rule.  It's just a shame so many who identify as Christian don't bother to read the words of the man who the religion is supposedly focused on.
2013-07-22 10:56:19 AM
1 votes:
I considered myself a Conservative for years. I ran for a State House seat in the late 1990s as an (R), I even found one of my old positions papers last year... pretty right. I voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004. I voted for Obama in 2008 because of what Bush and Company did to the economy. But I was never really hardcore.

Then 2010 happened. Walker in Wisconsin, Kasich in Ohio, the ignorance of the Tea 'tards, the Christian Taliban shiat pulled by the Fundies, the idiots in the House. I went full blue collar libby lib because of this insanity. I disagree with many things the Obama administration does, but every time it says something kind of dumb, the Tea 'tards take it and run it into the ground with their stupidity and ignorance.

I want Single Payer Health Care, I don't care to listen to some idiot tell me why it's bad because they mis-understand Socialism.
I want the US out of Afghanistan ASAP. I'm glad the time table's been fast tracked.
I like guns but the bullshiat surrounding the debate, especially the three times as loud neanderthals on the right, have turned me off. I now agree there should be mild controls in place because of the ignorance of the pro-gun idiots.

Basically the Tea 'tard Nation has turned me around. Good job, guys.
2013-07-22 10:54:20 AM
1 votes:
I considered myself a conservative until the rise of the Tea Party. I couldn't handle the cognitive dissonance it took to oppose stuff you championed weeks before.
2013-07-22 10:51:46 AM
1 votes:
i was very conservative until about age 28.

i got better.

actually, i would be conservative right now if it wasn't for the freakish stupidity that the word conservative invokes these day.
2013-07-22 10:50:06 AM
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: Popcorn Johnny: I like to think I've changed a few minds in the Zimmerman threads.

Real conservatism really shouldn't be saddled with parochial racism.


Right. It should be overarching, systemic racism. From the anti-Federalist's Three-Fifths Compromise to the Tea Party's voter ID laws, keeping down the black man has been the means and end of the "small government" wing of American politics.

AverageAmericanGuy: MattStafford: I'm a liberal, but I subscribe to Austrian economics.  I'm not sure how I got here, but that's where I am.

I can honestly say I've never seen the pendulum swing that way. Socially liberal and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Hayek follower, you betcha.

But socially liberal and Austrian school? Man, that seems pretty rare.


Hayek and Friedman weren't as batshiat as their modern disciples would lead you to believe. They even supported guaranteed minimum incomes.
2013-07-22 10:46:37 AM
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: MattStafford: I'm a liberal, but I subscribe to Austrian economics.  I'm not sure how I got here, but that's where I am.

I can honestly say I've never seen the pendulum swing that way. Socially liberal and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Hayek follower, you betcha.

But socially liberal and Austrian school? Man, that seems pretty rare.


Seems like a pretty standard libertarian worldview.
2013-07-22 10:46:15 AM
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Serious Black: GoldSpider: Serious Black: Yeah, us liberals are all about jealously pillaging the rich.

If you think "your side" has overcome any of humanity's base instincts, you're not helping.

One of humanity's greatest base instincts is cooperation. We've been cooperating ever since we were hunter-gatherers, working together to kill enormous animals and sharing the bounty from these successful hunts. I hope we never overcome the instinct that mutual interest is how we truly express self-interest.

Call me cynical but I don't think we have an innate drive to cooperate. That's a behavior that still has to be tought on school. Before then, a child tends to either hoard toys, or cry because another child has a toy he wants.


Okay. You're cynical.
2013-07-22 10:27:45 AM
1 votes:

angrymacface: Once I realized that conservatives are horribly selfish people, I realized I didn't want to be one.


Me too.

I used to say I wanted old, rich people monitoring our money and young, compassionate people making our laws. Then I saw what Reagan did and realized it wouldn't work to trust those old, rich people with ANYTHING. So I guess you could say Reagan made me turn liberal.
2013-07-22 10:23:29 AM
1 votes:
Never was a Republican, and never will be. Republicans are against unions, and that's basically my family's way of making a living. I used to walk in Labor Day parades with my dad and his whole local. They used to tell me how Republicans were anti-union and didn't want to help working people. When I became an adult, I looked into it on my own, and lo and behold, my dad was right.

When I was in the Air Force, I was surrounded by conservatism for the first time in my life, and I looked into libertarianism. I even joined the LP for a spell. But I gradually realized libertarians don't know how governments work and assume the worst in all people, so their solutions are basically, "F*ck you, got mine," writ large.

I also live in the conservative Midwest, where I see how short-sighted thinking and fearing change limit the huge potential for growth here. Mediocrity and conformity are praised where I live, and that's pretty much emblematic of American conservatism for me.
2013-07-22 10:10:42 AM
1 votes:

GoldSpider: Serious Black: Yeah, us liberals are all about jealously pillaging the rich.

If you think "your side" has overcome any of humanity's base instincts, you're not helping.


One of humanity's greatest base instincts is cooperation. We've been cooperating ever since we were hunter-gatherers, working together to kill enormous animals and sharing the bounty from these successful hunts. I hope we never overcome the instinct that mutual interest is how we truly express self-interest.
2013-07-22 10:04:16 AM
1 votes:

Stranded On The Planet Dumbass: Unlike conservatives I support the philosophy of Jesus.


Hey, another fan of the real Jesus and what he actually said, not some obscure verses from old Jewish law.

/I'm a red letter Christian Buddhist agnostic
2013-07-22 09:57:17 AM
1 votes:
Unlike conservatives I support the philosophy of Jesus.
2013-07-22 09:24:59 AM
1 votes:
The choice is between derp and psycho babble. Both sides have convinced me not to be anything.
2013-07-22 09:17:18 AM
1 votes:
If you're looking for an example of someone whose opinion has changed due to online discussion, I am one.

I used to be a right-wing, fascist Libertarian. I was young and impressionable, and all of the forums I frequented were filled with people who were absolutely certain that Ron Paul was going to be President and that the Duopoly was going to come crashing down any second now. I wanted to fit in with the group, so I let those views rub off on me.

Nowadays, I'd describe myself as left of center (in the US- here in Canada, I'm probably closer to the center). My views changed when other posters had the courage to stand up to the hardcore Libertarians who dominated the conversation and challenge their views. Also, I started going to sites with a more diverse user base, such as Fark. These two factors- combined with the fact that I grew a little older and learned not to take everything I heard at face value- led me to open my eyes and do some research of my own. I came to the conclusion that Libertarianism, while usually well-meaning and not without a few good ideas, cannot form a suitable government for a modern society. I also found out what a farce the Austrian School of economics is, and today my views on economics are more in the style of Keynes. As my knowledge has increased, I have more or less completely abandoned my former beliefs.

Anybody who tells you that the thing people fear the most is death or public speaking is lying. People fear change more than anything else. Perhaps it's because our simple minds prefer to see things in simple, "black & white", "I'm right, you're wrong" terms, rather than shades of grey. Perhaps it's because there is a stigma associated with someone who changes their mind that brands them as an unreliable flip-flopper. Perhaps it's because you have so much invested in the identity you've established for yourself, and you don't want to see that facade crumble before your eyes. Perhaps it's all of the above. From my experience, my conclusion after all of this is that I wish more people were more open to changing their minds, and that doing so didn't involve as much suffering and pain and turmoil and fear.

I think the world would be a much better place if that was the case.
2013-07-22 08:42:47 AM
1 votes:
The Bush administration, religious right, and bile-spewing right wing more than convinced me that conservatism in America was not for me.
2013-07-22 08:41:23 AM
1 votes:
I came to this site as a hardcore conservative with "libertarian" leanings. Thanks to people on this site who can actually debate, discuss, and cite.... I got over it.

Now I find myself unable to be classified on the horribly skewed spectrum that is US politics; it don't go left enough.
2013-07-22 08:33:49 AM
1 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: I like to think I've changed a few minds in the Zimmerman threads.


Real conservatism really shouldn't be saddled with parochial racism.
2013-07-22 08:29:27 AM
1 votes:
I was, from 2003~2008, a Republican Conservative.

During this time period, I made several stupid mistakes that I'm still paying for.

I credit talk radio swinging me to conservatism, and then Fark.com and the lack of talk radio swinging me back.

Now I'm the type of person to randomly break out into "Do you hear the people sing", consider co-ops and credit unions, and worry about supporting the weakest.

"You can always tell the quality of the person by how they treat those in their power."

One of my phrases I've said repeatedly, "While we can always find and steer a middle passage betwixt the two, I would always prefer to be financially poor but morally rich, than morally poor and financially rich."
2013-07-22 08:29:01 AM
1 votes:
I used to be a conservative. I even listened to Rush daily. Then I began reading, and meeting more people. I found out most of what I believed was bullshiat. Every assumption I had about our government turned out to be based on nothing more than talking points. My friends on facebook who were conservative reposted the most banal and inaccurate foolishness, and they drove me away from the surety I had felt with my views.
Then I read The Authoritarians, and from it I learned where my views were coming from. I was quite ashamed to find that so much of what I felt was based on fear. So, I guess now I'm a liberal.
2013-07-22 08:23:58 AM
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: SunsetLament: Wendy's Chili: AverageAmericanGuy: SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.

No, it's not.

I can entertain the possibility that Gore took those memos a little more seriously and thwarted the attack, but bin Laden didn't give a shiat which letter came after our president's name.

As seriously as Obama and Hillary took the memos saying "Our embassy is almost completely defenseless and we need better security" in the lead up to our Ambassador being killed in Benghazi?

Dude, Benghazi is never going to be a thing. It's over.

Attempting to compare it to Bush's failures isn't helping your cause.


The Benghazi shiat stirrers are still jerking off over the Gulf of Tonkin incident. They don't understand that the rest of the country moved on from the issue long ago.
2013-07-22 08:23:19 AM
1 votes:
I didn't care about the parties in the 1980s. In the 90s, Republicans started looking worse to me. But it wasn't until the invasion of Iraq that I decided to join the Democrats to oppose the Bush Administration. Course, I found them rather ineffective at that, and I still wonder why Bush and Cheney aren't in prison. But the alternative is unthinkable. Republicans now, both nationally and in states that they fully control, are hellbent on inflicting as much pain and suffering as they can. For people who claim to be Chistian, they betray everything Christ ever taught.
2013-07-22 08:19:06 AM
1 votes:
Conservatives have convinced me to change from being conservative to liberal.

/or maybe it was just the definition of 'conservative' that changed.
2013-07-22 08:18:12 AM
1 votes:

SunsetLament: Wendy's Chili: AverageAmericanGuy: SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.

No, it's not.

I can entertain the possibility that Gore took those memos a little more seriously and thwarted the attack, but bin Laden didn't give a shiat which letter came after our president's name.

As seriously as Obama and Hillary took the memos saying "Our embassy is almost completely defenseless and we need better security" in the lead up to our Ambassador being killed in Benghazi?


Dude, Benghazi is never going to be a thing. It's over.

Attempting to compare it to Bush's failures isn't helping your cause.
2013-07-22 08:15:49 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

What does that even mean?

I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.

Nice copout.

It is nonsense. What do you want it to mean.

This is why I don't like 'serious' political threads in TFD. Everyone says conservatives are terrible, complete arseholes, hate poor people, yet I'm a conservative and I don't think I'm terrible, I don't think I hate poor people. I don't think I'm an arsehole. I'm kind and helpful whenever I can be. I try to be patient and understanding of other's views and opinions, yet I'm unjustly vilified simply because of my political views and who I vote for. They don't let me run the Republican party, if they did it would be different, but I let my elected officials know my thoughts and I help others and my community as best I can.


Now you know how Muslims feel.
2013-07-22 08:12:25 AM
1 votes:
I still vote democrat, but I'm no longer an ardent supporter. I see conservatives as exponentially worse, but I don't feel democrats have answers either, at least they aren't Republicans.
2013-07-22 08:09:57 AM
1 votes:

SunsetLament: TuteTibiImperes: The answer to the health care dilemma is pretty simple:

National single payer system - Medicare for everyone

Premiums paid out of taxes at a progressive rate like income taxes (which I'd argue should be higher at the upper income levels as well)

A panel of doctors and experts sets the reimbursement costs at a fair level that lets medical facilities keep the doors open but still minimize costs, adjustments are made every couple years, maybe with a codified COLA adjustment in-between

All medical facilities are required by law to accept the government insurance

All doctors and medical facilities are required by law to perform any treatment to preserve life and quality of life for any patient who comes through the doors.  Appropriate exceptions can be made for the elderly for whom extreme measures would just slightly postpone death by natural causes.

Birth control, vasectomies, and other treatments that serve to save money in the long run would be covered.

Reconstructive plastic surgery (after burns, traumatic injuries, or to address defects such as hare lips) would be covered.

Vanity treatments like breast implants, calf implants, penis enlargements, etc, would have to come out of the patient's pocket

There's one flaw in your plan (well, there's tons of flaws in your plan, but there's one overarching flaw in your plan) ... the rest of the country overwhelming disagrees with you.


Umm, no, single payer was the biggest supported health care option during that debate.

So yeah, technically right, but the people wanted universal, they got the Republican shiatty version instead.]

If anybody deserves credit for this iteration having its failings, it's people like you who have fully trained yourself to love suppressing the gag reflexes to fully service hegemony cock. But keep farking that textbook chicken.
2013-07-22 07:56:18 AM
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.


No, it's not.

I can entertain the possibility that Gore took those memos a little more seriously and thwarted the attack, but bin Laden didn't give a shiat which letter came after our president's name.
2013-07-22 07:37:06 AM
1 votes:
Been a liberal ever since my parents told me that only Racists vote for Republicans. This has been proven true for the rest of my life, and I have seen no reason to entertain any changes in philosophy
2013-07-22 06:29:41 AM
1 votes:

Whiskey Pete: If you align yourself with the current GOP you are either incredibly stupid, mentally ill or both.


or people are voting out of inertia.  there's also a lot of willing blindness among rank and file Republican voters.  they believe they're voting for a party of smaller government and honorable people who just want to make the country a better place.
2013-07-22 06:27:10 AM
1 votes:

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


This. I went from liberal to democratic socialist.
2013-07-22 06:23:24 AM
1 votes:
of course, now I"m a moderate 'liberal' democrat and semi-out of the broom closet as a pagan.  so yeah, I went from hard core right wing conservative christian Republican to damn near complete opposite.
2013-07-22 06:11:27 AM
1 votes:
I was just looking at my pay stub for the first half of the year. I feel damn fortunate that I can afford to have over $30k paid in taxes so far this year. I get to live well because society supported me for a long time, and now I am fortunate enough that the system have given me an opportunity to enjoy some measure of success while giving back to the system.
2013-07-22 05:59:20 AM
1 votes:
The whole conservative or liberal is a false dichotomy, and is meaningless. Healthy politics requires all responsible voices to be heard. It is the dynamic tension between ideas along the political spectrum that leads to workable policy outcomes over time.
2013-07-22 05:55:04 AM
1 votes:
I'm neither, but I like science and facts, so nowadays that means I'm a lib.
2013-07-22 04:43:52 AM
1 votes:

I Like Bread: When I was younger, I was a long-haired anti-establishment goon. I've since learned many things about human nature and what people will do when left to their own devices - leading me to understand just how much we need the system to thrive.

log_jammin: the words "conservative" and "liberal" mean nothing in american politics anymore beyond name calling.

You're right - those "both sides are the same" blockheads ARE exceedingly annoying.
/I'm sure everything looks the same from all the way over there in Loony Libertopia


Yesterday in the Samsung Galaxy vs iPhone thread some blockhead managed to get into the thread to announce to all the people discussing the differences that they're really all the same. I imagined that his dumbphone might have been a BSABSVRphone.
2013-07-22 04:19:16 AM
1 votes:
Richard Nixon cured me of conservatism.
2013-07-22 02:59:31 AM
1 votes:
Yup, the GOP leadership convinced me to become more liberal, or else maybe the mark has just been moved.

Honestly, I was against single-payer healthcare, until the compromise Obamacare passed, and I see what a piece of crap it is and how single-payer would have been better.
2013-07-22 02:48:01 AM
1 votes:

monty666: I'm not into reading walls of text. What is currently going on here?


img.fark.net
2013-07-22 02:42:59 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: Isn't 40 hours a week at McD's better than a 20 hour cap?


You assume that people can actually get 40 hours at McDonalds, or even be able to take multiple part-time jobs to make up for it.
2013-07-22 02:40:46 AM
1 votes:
feckingmorons

This isn't getting anywhere. I am just burning bridges with this. I think I better just leave.

Or you could stay, and think of this as an intervention by people who care.
2013-07-22 02:39:35 AM
1 votes:
feckingmorons

Isn't 40 hours a week at McD's better than a 20 hour cap?

Work a year or two on today's minimum wage trying to support yourself, much less a child, and get back to me with your answer.
2013-07-22 02:35:11 AM
1 votes:

TuteTibiImperes: Maybe we should fund pharmaceutical development federally at various Universities with the resultant medications becoming public domain and open to generic production from day one, maybe we should just ban all pharmaceutical marketing and put severe limits on how pharma sales-reps can interact with doctors, I'm open so suggestions there.


In theory, sounds great. In practice, never gonna happen. Pharm lobby will shut that down at the first hint of it in DC.
2013-07-22 02:32:58 AM
1 votes:
feckingmorons:

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.


In case you all forgot, FeckinM helped me negotiate a $4000 outrageous medical bill down to $1000.  And in case he's forgotten, that entire bill arose because my individual health insurance policy ($600/mo; reimburses at Medicare rates) made me go to the ER with a mangled finger.  There wasn't an English-speaking walk-in center available within a mile, and I wasn't able to drive since my right hand was the size of a melon.  So I took a cab to the ER, got X-rayed and splinted, and shoved out the door with just a doctor's name to see the next day.  (And a $10 Tylenol).

The next day, I called the doctor's office.  The day after that he saw me and charged me >$4000 for a 40-minute visit in which he looked at the x-ray, said yep it's broken, and wrote a scrip for physio. Fecks helped me on that, so thanks forever.

Since then, my PCP has moved out of my coverage area.  I have tried and tried to find a doctor who can see me for >10 minutes.  The only doctors who will take patients like me are doctors who work on salary, so university doctors.  They're the only ones willing to accept Medicare. And their waiting list is huge. It took nine months to get a first appointment with my former PCP, even though I was referred by a patient who was also a physio. That nine-month wait, coupled with the one-month wait to see the physiatrist, who immediately referred me to a neurologist (3 month wait for first appointment) nearly killed me.

I haven't seen a gyno in four years.  Don't know of one who accepts my insurance.

So, Fecks, tell me again how I have access to health care but I'm just scamming the system.  I don't. I'm not.
2013-07-22 02:27:40 AM
1 votes:

monty666: I'm not into reading walls of text. What is currently going on here?


Fecking is trying to pretend he's not a piece of sh*t by talking about how charitable he is
2013-07-22 02:22:46 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: So tell Obama not to spend $100MM flying to Africa. We can economize, but the hue and cry when we try to cut a government job is astounding.


You realize the two are entirely unrelated, yes? If Obama were to stop flying right now and not leave the White House for the rest of his term, Medicare wouldn't get a  single penny more as a result.

My favorite example of sequester cut madness is to the Federal Public Defender. In a fit of genius, they're getting their budgets slashed, because the government is demanding across the board cuts on every single government program. So dozens of public defenders are going to get fired. But because legal representation is mandated by the Constitution, the government will  still be paying for it. Except now they're going to pay CJA Panel Attorneys at a higher rate than the federal public defenders, and the net result will be that the government will actually cost itself  more money by cutting the FPD budget. It's loony. And of course, the U.S. Attorneys are losing a dime of funding, and their hiring has continued apace. Fairness in the system!

/not bitter at all.
2013-07-22 02:12:11 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: dialysis

There is a program specifically for End Stage Renal Disease so what are you talking about dialysis.

Don't just make shiat up.


And the sequester cuts to Medicare are hitting right now, and three weeks ago Medicare proposed drastically slashing those funds.
2013-07-22 02:05:27 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: How do they know what it costs? Call up a doctor's office and ask what you will have to pay for an exam and two standard blood tests. They can't tell you because of the nonsense that insurance/government programs/managed care is these days.

If patients knew that they had to spend $40 for a comprehensive (30 minute) exam and $6 for a CBC and $25 for a SMA-23 they could budget for those things. If the doctor knew he could count on getting paid those amounts they could actully charge those.

Now the doctor bills $167 and gets paid $19.23 for the visit. The lab gets $3.60 for the CBC and $14.44 for the SMA23 (those are real numbers for a Medicare patient) The patient is then billed about $17 dollars more for their 'co-payment' (a bullshiat term).

If I walk into Sears I pay the same price for a wrench as you and the guy down the street and the Pope if he were to stop in. The price fixing (or negotiated pricing) of managed care is bullshiat. It should be illegal.

Price things the same for everyone and it will be more affordable for everyone. Those who can't work because of disability, infirmity, or age we can cover with our social programs and we can better judge the costs and not force doctors, hospitals and drug companies to sell to government plans at below market rates.

Doctors will stop accepting Medicaid because it simply isn't enough money for the work they have to do.

Just because you get some insurance through a government sponsored exchange doesn't mean any doctor will take patients with that insurance.


Yes. The current system is arcane and leads to overbilling.  And therefore poor people should not be allowed to have access to it?

But fine, if you're in an anecdote-y mood: My girlfriend recently slipped on some wet tile in her house and fell over backwards, cracking her head on the floor. She was in pretty bad pain, and was worried that she had a concussion. Because she has health insurance, and because she has a job that allows flexibility, she was able to go to the doctor the next morning and have her head checked out. Thankfully, she did not have a concussion.

But if she had been poor, and didn't have health insurance, and worked at a job that didn't have flexible sick time,  she wouldn't have been able to do that. So if she had a concussion, it might have gone completely untreated, simply because of costs.That's a really basic, small example of the kind of things that happen when you live in poverty.

You also like numbers, so here are some. The federal poverty line in America, for a family of four, is $23,283 income a year. For a  family of four, saying "Well, it'll just be $80 to get a checkup," isn't exactly saying "Wow, it'll be a cakewalk!" And god forbid Mama gets pregnant again, or Timmy breaks his leg, or Dad injures himself on the job. As  kiwimoogle just found out, the cost of having a baby is  thousands of dollars.  Seventy-Five Percent of Americans don't have enough money in savings to pay for six months of expenses if they lost their income stream. That $40 that you dismissed out of hand is a  lot of money to millions of people in this country.

And finally, you completely ignore my point about medicare fraud, and for the second time completely ignore my point about complicated medicale care like chemotherapy, dialysis, or treatment for any kind of chronic disease.
2013-07-22 02:03:45 AM
1 votes:
In high school and the first couple years of college I considered myself a republican, but that was mostly due to lack of research.  I saw republicans as the party of rich people, and I wanted to be rich, and I thought 'yeah, dang all those parasites just cashing all of those welfare checks and never working a day in their lives'.  I was never socially conservative, and when I first registered to vote, I registered as a libertarian, but in my defense, my mental image of libertarians were the guys that smoked weed in front of the coffee place and talked about philosophy and plays well past midnight.

Then I actually bothered looking up what the parties stood for, and getting closer to entering the real world I understood that welfare queens were a particularly cruel myth, and that the Democratic party was the one that actually stood up for the rights of the middle class and the average worker.  I changed my voter registration to Democrat and haven't looked back.  The continual march of the right into religious fundamentalism has made that decision look smarter every day since.

I've always been socially liberal - I've always felt that gay people should have every right afforded to heterosexual people, including marriage, I've always been pro-immigration, I've always been pro-science and pro-stem cell research, and I've been pro-choice since I bothered to look up the actual time-line of a pregnancy and the length of time it takes for what is essentially a medical condition to turn into a child.

I suppose I still align myself with a couple right-wing talking points - I fully support Israel, their rights to the land they won in the Six Day War, and supported the war on terrorism (though I'll admit we could have done it in a much better fashion and without losing as many American lives and giving as much money as we have to defense contractors).

I also have beliefs that don't align with any of the major parties - I believe that we need to seriously re-evaluate our copyright laws and patent system, as they're stifling innovation, neutering the public domain, and inadvertently allowing orphan works to disappear forever due to issues with contacting rights holders, I believe that our current surveillance state has gone way too far and that the erosion of the 4th amendment deserves a lot more attention than the supposed attacks on the 2nd, and that we need policymakers with a solid understanding of technology in office so that initiatives like Net Neutrality get the attention they deserve.
2013-07-22 02:03:08 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: but you damn well know the holy trinity of viagra/cialis/levitra has ALWAYS been covered.

Those shouldn't be covered. Dick drugs have no other medical purpose, they should be a cash only proposition. Birth control pills do have other medical uses.


So does Viagra.
2013-07-22 02:03:06 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: What is sad is you defaulting to Rush Limbaugh assholisms like all those poor people showing up at the ER in their Mercedes and designer clothes and Gucci bags looking to steal health care

I worked in a big city ER (several cities I even worked at St. Johns in St. Louis for 13 weeks on a contract) and I've seen it myself. Sure it is not everyone, but one out of 100 unfunded patients quite easily.

I don't know a real Gucci bag from a fake one, but still they had them.

I'm not defaulting to anyone else's opinion and I don't particularly like being called an asshole.


I didn't call you an asshole. I said your bad personalities are spouting Rush Limbaugh assholisms that would dismay your kind and charitable personalities.
2013-07-22 01:54:44 AM
1 votes:
feckingmorons

But government takeover of medical care is not the answer. We need to return to indemnity plans (like car insurance - it doesn't pay for oil changes) for medical care.
"oil change"

I remember the days when the birth control pill wasn't covered by insurance.

but you damn well know the holy trinity of viagra/cialis/levitra has ALWAYS been covered.
2013-07-22 01:54:19 AM
1 votes:
I did go through a libertarian phase in high school.

/I got better.
2013-07-22 01:54:12 AM
1 votes:

Rincewind53: Here are some statistics. In 2012,  80 million Americans didn't go to the doctor or access needed medical care because of cost.


How do they know what it costs? Call up a doctor's office and ask what you will have to pay for an exam and two standard blood tests. They can't tell you because of the nonsense that insurance/government programs/managed care is these days.

If patients knew that they had to spend $40 for a comprehensive (30 minute) exam and $6 for a CBC and $25 for a SMA-23 they could budget for those things. If the doctor knew he could count on getting paid those amounts they could actully charge those.

Now the doctor bills $167 and gets paid $19.23 for the visit. The lab gets $3.60 for the CBC and $14.44 for the SMA23 (those are real numbers for a Medicare patient) The patient is then billed about $17 dollars more for their 'co-payment' (a bullshiat term).

If I walk into Sears I pay the same price for a wrench as you and the guy down the street and the Pope if he were to stop in. The price fixing (or negotiated pricing) of managed care is bullshiat. It should be illegal.

Price things the same for everyone and it will be more affordable for everyone. Those who can't work because of disability, infirmity, or age we can cover with our social programs and we can better judge the costs and not force doctors, hospitals and drug companies to sell to government plans at below market rates.

Doctors will stop accepting Medicaid because it simply isn't enough money for the work they have to do.

Just because you get some insurance through a government sponsored exchange doesn't mean any doctor will take patients with that insurance.
2013-07-22 01:42:49 AM
1 votes:

SuperTramp: feckingmorons you can't see the forest for the trees, baby.

one scammer at $21MM is nothing compared to what the BIG BOYS are sucking up EVERY GOT DAMN DAY. We;re being turned into a third world nation in the name of "privatization" and "free market enterprise" You mean to tell me you can't hear the sound of that giant vacuum cleaner?


Some people would rather harp on the 10 little people scamming their way to $25k over a period of years than turn the spotlight on government contractors who piss away that much every lunch hour buying off our elected representatives.
2013-07-22 01:39:19 AM
1 votes:
Smeggy Smurf
Bush convinced me to become a libertarian. Fartbongo reinforced that as having been a good idea.

Clearsil and move out of your mom's basement. Sunlight is a great disinfectant.
2013-07-22 01:39:15 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Because in order to accomplish any macro social goal, a plan must have some minimum standards. There isn't a chance in hell of doing that if the standard is "we are refraining from requiring a standard because it might affect the 0.0001% of the population who are like feckingmorons, the guy who wants to pay cash for his hospitalization and negotiate special cash prices with the anesthesiologist and the radiologist and the proctocologist."

In Florida you don't have to get the legally mandated insurance if you have $40K in escrow (a CD or something) and name the state as a beneficiary. You can opt out if you wish to take on the risk yourself.

We should be allowed to do that with our own health insurance, we should be allowed to opt out of a government program if we agree to, and are capable of accepting the risk.


Yeah, so who pays when your measly $40k is chewed up overnight by doctors and hospitals and pharma companies and malpractice insurers after a catastrophic event or illness? The taxpayers do.
2013-07-22 01:36:21 AM
1 votes:
feckingmorons you can't see the forest for the trees, baby.

one scammer at $21MM is nothing compared to what the BIG BOYS are sucking up EVERY GOT DAMN DAY. We;re being turned into a third world nation in the name of "privatization" and "free market enterprise" You mean to tell me you can't hear the sound of that giant vacuum cleaner?
2013-07-22 01:34:54 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?

Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.


That an intelligent guy like you who appears to have real compassion for others can spout nonsense like this is really sad. I'm starting to think you have multiple personalities.
2013-07-22 01:32:20 AM
1 votes:
I'm sure all those Gucci purses were real, and that the patient paid for the car themselves with their scammer income. No way was the car paid for by someone else.
2013-07-22 01:30:39 AM
1 votes:

SuperTramp: My father is alive right now because of that. Let's go outside, and talk about cutting it for your mother or father.


I'm playing.

It's not viable.

It's just what the fiscally conservative could say, and get people to believe.

I'd never want to actually see it happen.
2013-07-22 01:29:05 AM
1 votes:
professorkowalski
You wanna save money, in the budget?

Cut End of Life care out of the Medicaid budget.


My father is alive right now because of that. Let's go outside, and talk about cutting it for your mother or father.
2013-07-22 01:23:14 AM
1 votes:
You wanna save money, in the budget?

Cut End of Life care out of the Medicaid budget.
2013-07-22 01:16:08 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

What does that even mean?

I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.

Nice copout.

It is nonsense. What do you want it to mean.

This is why I don't like 'serious' political threads in TFD. Everyone says conservatives are terrible, complete arseholes, hate poor people, yet I'm a conservative and I don't think I'm terrible, I don't think I hate poor people. I don't think I'm an arsehole. I'm kind and helpful whenever I can be. I try to be patient and understanding of other's views and opinions, yet I'm unjustly vilified simply because of my political views and who I vote for. They don't let me run the Republican party, if they did it would be different, but I let my elected officials know my thoughts and I help others and my community as best I can.


you're a bad person and you should feel bad

/second
2013-07-22 01:14:53 AM
1 votes:
Sure someone can refuse medical treatment if they're coherent enough to. But if you get picked up from an accident or you're highly intoxicated, we have the right to treat you without your consent since you cannot provide it. So when you wake up and say hey I want to leave, surely you can leave AMA, but that bill still needs to be paid. Most people cannot afford medical bills without insurance. If you default on those bills, you're hurting other patients more than the hospital in the long run.

And not having nationwide coverage because some people may still cheat the system is dumb.
2013-07-22 01:10:37 AM
1 votes:

angrymacface: quatchi: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

Because you don't need to own a  car.

Therefore you may not in your lifetime need to ever purchase auto insurance.

Health Insurance, on the other hand, is something everyone can and does access throughout the course of their lives.

Therefore if you know everyone is gonna take out of the system how does it not make sense to make everyone (who can) pay into the system?

You'll get all sorts of arguments, but what it basically boils down to is:
"How dare you suggest that MY money go towards other people. It's MY money. MINE. I'll do what I want with it. And if those other people weren't so worthless, they'd be able to afford healthcare, so they deserve to do without. I'm certainly not letting them have MY money."


Yeah, conservatives are just great at shouting their Christian charity and compassion and mercy slogans to the world . . . as long as they don't have to help pay for it. They trot out their faith-based common good ideals, but they don't want to contribute to the common good if it requires them to do anything beyond waving the flag.
2013-07-22 01:08:36 AM
1 votes:

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.


Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and cheat. We have a great country, we help those that truly need it, but it seems that the percentage of liars and cheats is just getting larger and larger. We now have two people who scammed money out of the Boston bombing fund, people who ship food bought with SNAP overseas. I'm just tired of the cheating, it isn't fair to those of us who don't cheat.
2013-07-22 01:05:35 AM
1 votes:

quatchi: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

Because you don't need to own a  car.

Therefore you may not in your lifetime need to ever purchase auto insurance.

Health Insurance, on the other hand, is something everyone can and does access throughout the course of their lives.

Therefore if you know everyone is gonna take out of the system how does it not make sense to make everyone (who can) pay into the system?


You'll get all sorts of arguments, but what it basically boils down to is:
"How dare you suggest that MY money go towards other people. It's MY money. MINE. I'll do what I want with it. And if those other people weren't so worthless, they'd be able to afford healthcare, so they deserve to do without. I'm certainly not letting them have MY money."
2013-07-22 01:02:58 AM
1 votes:

EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.

Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.

And they can refuse treatment for their injuries, and walk out in the woods and die if they want.


And yet they will still be sent a bill for the ambulance.
2013-07-22 01:01:41 AM
1 votes:
By the way, I'm still a moderate Democrat who certainly will not become a conservative. They whine too much on AM radio for my taste.
2013-07-22 12:58:25 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

What does that even mean?

I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.


Nice copout.
2013-07-22 12:57:51 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.


You don't have to live.

brownlady79: Abacus9: No, I prefer to do my own thinking instead of having someone else do it for me. It makes me a riot at family get-togethers. Also this:

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.

Yeah, my family are mostly all republicans and not afraid to voice it. I guess they all assume everyone they know are, too. They know now where I stand but I refuse to get into it with them because its not worth it.


Same here, both sides are ultra-conservative, and they consider me the libbiest lib that ever libbed (which isn't completely true). They also consider me the smartest in the family, go figure.
2013-07-22 12:57:51 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.


The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.
2013-07-22 12:57:17 AM
1 votes:

Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care


No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.
2013-07-22 12:56:27 AM
1 votes:
No, but I did eventually concede to the fact that it did not taste great (it tasted awful), but was indeed less filling.
2013-07-22 12:55:29 AM
1 votes:
Someone once said "Fartbama" and that totally made me switch over to the conservative side.
2013-07-22 12:54:37 AM
1 votes:

feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.


But you do have to have health care (literally everyone will incur a hospital bill in their lifetime). And someone has to pay for it. So it's either going to be the government and therefore your fellow taxpayers, or it's going to be you.
2013-07-22 12:52:54 AM
1 votes:

syrynxx: make me some tea: As an ex-conservatve

I think that's a touchy word.  I'd still like to think I'm fiscally-conservative, but "socially conservative" is just a code word for "legislating what we imagine the Bible's version of morality to be".  F* that.  I don't support fining people who don't purchase 3rd-party health insurance.  The US government has no more right to force me to buy 3rd-party health insurance than it does to force me to buy ketchup or soup or footwear.  It certainly doesn't have the authority to penalize me for not buying a commercial product.


As SCOTUS determined (correctly, I might add), you have a right to abstain from buying a health insurance plan, but you'll be obligated to pay more tax on April 15th.
2013-07-22 12:52:10 AM
1 votes:
Growing up, I read a lot of military sci-fi and fantasy, and things with a fairly libertarian bent. But the older I got, the more I realized how absurd some of the stuff was, and the more liberal I got. In the last few years, I've drifted even farther from the center and towards the left.

When I was in High SChool, you could probably describe me as a centrist Democrat. Now I'm much more progressive and leftist in a wide variety of ways, mostly due to the influence of my girlfriend, who is practically a communist.
2013-07-22 12:50:39 AM
1 votes:

sn82: The theory of small government and not spending as much as democrats do.


Have you really taken the time to think this through? I used to be very libertarian too, mind you. I've determined that's also not a sustainable path.
2013-07-22 12:23:17 AM
1 votes:
Life experiences have pushed me to become more libertarian.
2013-07-22 12:23:16 AM
1 votes:
feckingmorons
No, I just get more conservative.

This is why you and I are but two ships that pass in the night. And just so you know, I have torpedos, too.
2013-07-22 12:20:47 AM
1 votes:

syrynxx: Yeah, when Bush the Younger got the power to arrest and execute without trial any American citizen, just by naming them a terrorist.


I think you have that confused with the current administration which blows them up from the sky.
2013-07-22 12:20:20 AM
1 votes:

syrynxx: Who am I going to vote for now?


Pedro.
2013-07-22 12:19:56 AM
1 votes:

MappingChick: feckingmorons: MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.

Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.

Your joke is much better than the one I was trying to formulate.


hateandanger.files.wordpress.com
2013-07-22 12:19:39 AM
1 votes:
No, I prefer to do my own thinking instead of having someone else do it for me. It makes me a riot at family get-togethers. Also this:

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.

2013-07-22 12:19:24 AM
1 votes:
Yeah, when Bush the Younger got the power to arrest and execute without trial any American citizen, just by naming them a terrorist.  F*ck you Obama for not having the balls to grant habeus corpus to everyone in Guantanamo Bay.  Who am I going to vote for now?  It's obvious the political parties are both corrupt.
2013-07-22 12:19:13 AM
1 votes:

MIAppologia: Hell no.  I was married to an arch conservative Republican, and the most I'd do is to tell him to stop talking politics around me, since his idea of talking politics was to gravely insult the politicians I admired.

And when that didn't work, I'd just turn the music up loud and clean the house.


If I insult politicians you like will you play music loudly and clean my house?
I'll even buy dinner!
2013-07-22 12:18:17 AM
1 votes:
I was a democrat until I met my ex several years ago. Then he told me more about republican and it made sense. I'm still kind of in the middle of the two parties but am more to the right than in the past. I still mostly vote for the right candidate versus voting for which party they're affiliated with.
2013-07-22 12:13:40 AM
1 votes:
oh shove it libmitter
2013-07-22 12:13:16 AM
1 votes:
No, I just get more conservative.
 
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