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(Fark)   Has anyone ever convinced you to change from being conservative to being liberal (or vice versa)?   (fark.com) divider line 737
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1364 clicks; posted to Politics » on 22 Jul 2013 at 2:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-22 01:02:58 AM  

EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.

Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.

And they can refuse treatment for their injuries, and walk out in the woods and die if they want.


And yet they will still be sent a bill for the ambulance.
 
2013-07-22 01:03:07 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

But you do have to have health care (literally everyone will incur a hospital bill in their lifetime). And someone has to pay for it. So it's either going to be the government and therefore your fellow taxpayers, or it's going to be you.

So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.


So, you are against the government penalizing someone for not buying insurance. Does this mean that you'd rather the government take care of them through a socialistic health care plan, paid for by taxpayers; or would you rather they just die?

TommyymmoT: No, but I did eventually concede to the fact that it did not taste great (it tasted awful), but was indeed less filling.


TASTES GREAT!
 
2013-07-22 01:04:13 AM  
AirForceVet

Quit whining like a baby. Congress and President Obama signed it into law. SCOTUS backed them up.

Be a responsible person and buy health insurance like a real American. Quit depending on us taxpayers to foot your bill when you get sick or hurt without coverage.


You're missing the goddamn point. As it stand, the ACHA does damned near nothing to cut out the profit motive of the health care INDUSTRY.

FOR PROFIT health care.

Until we eliminate the profit motive, things will not change, no matter who is paying, or subsidizing the premium.
 
2013-07-22 01:05:02 AM  

Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.

Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.

And they can refuse treatment for their injuries, and walk out in the woods and die if they want.

And yet they will still be sent a bill for the ambulance.


Forward it to the guy that hit them with his car.
 
2013-07-22 01:05:35 AM  

quatchi: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

Because you don't need to own a  car.

Therefore you may not in your lifetime need to ever purchase auto insurance.

Health Insurance, on the other hand, is something everyone can and does access throughout the course of their lives.

Therefore if you know everyone is gonna take out of the system how does it not make sense to make everyone (who can) pay into the system?


You'll get all sorts of arguments, but what it basically boils down to is:
"How dare you suggest that MY money go towards other people. It's MY money. MINE. I'll do what I want with it. And if those other people weren't so worthless, they'd be able to afford healthcare, so they deserve to do without. I'm certainly not letting them have MY money."
 
2013-07-22 01:06:00 AM  

Rincewind53: [media.sdreader.com image 421x599]


I prefer:
i1156.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-22 01:07:09 AM  

CommieTaoist: Rincewind53: [media.sdreader.com image 421x599]

I prefer:
[i1156.photobucket.com image 348x597]


Ha!
 
2013-07-22 01:07:33 AM  
I've always been ultra liberal, but as I've gotten older I've been able to more clearly see why some people have different political philosophies than my own. I don't agree with them, but I'm not as kneejerk dismissive of disagreement as I may once have been.
 
2013-07-22 01:07:45 AM  

EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.

Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.

And they can refuse treatment for their injuries, and walk out in the woods and die if they want.

And yet they will still be sent a bill for the ambulance.

Forward it to the guy that hit them with his car.


We would, but he got into a tragic leopard accident shortly after returning home.
 
2013-07-22 01:08:36 AM  

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.


Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and cheat. We have a great country, we help those that truly need it, but it seems that the percentage of liars and cheats is just getting larger and larger. We now have two people who scammed money out of the Boston bombing fund, people who ship food bought with SNAP overseas. I'm just tired of the cheating, it isn't fair to those of us who don't cheat.
 
2013-07-22 01:10:02 AM  

MIAppologia: feckingmorons: If I insult politicians you like will you play music loudly and clean my house?
I'll even buy dinner!

Um, sure.  I must warn you, however, that when I cleaned the bathroom, I dipped his toothbrush in the toilet.  :)


Oh I wish you had weighed in on the recent TFD thread about whether you or a "servant" cleans your toilet.   http://bit.ly/12XtbXa
 
2013-07-22 01:10:32 AM  
the words "conservative" and "liberal" mean nothing in american politics anymore beyond name calling.
 
2013-07-22 01:10:37 AM  

angrymacface: quatchi: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

Because you don't need to own a  car.

Therefore you may not in your lifetime need to ever purchase auto insurance.

Health Insurance, on the other hand, is something everyone can and does access throughout the course of their lives.

Therefore if you know everyone is gonna take out of the system how does it not make sense to make everyone (who can) pay into the system?

You'll get all sorts of arguments, but what it basically boils down to is:
"How dare you suggest that MY money go towards other people. It's MY money. MINE. I'll do what I want with it. And if those other people weren't so worthless, they'd be able to afford healthcare, so they deserve to do without. I'm certainly not letting them have MY money."


Yeah, conservatives are just great at shouting their Christian charity and compassion and mercy slogans to the world . . . as long as they don't have to help pay for it. They trot out their faith-based common good ideals, but they don't want to contribute to the common good if it requires them to do anything beyond waving the flag.
 
2013-07-22 01:11:09 AM  

Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?


No, I don't.  Cars driven on private property do not require auto insurance.
 
2013-07-22 01:11:26 AM  
feckingmorons: but it seems that the percentage of liars and cheats is just getting larger and larger.

So you want to talk about the Koch Brothers and ALEC yet?
 
2013-07-22 01:12:36 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.

Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and ch ...


Why is it that you only link to articles about minorities committing crimes?
 
2013-07-22 01:14:24 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Yeah, conservatives are just great at shouting their Christian charity and compassion and mercy slogans to the world . . . as long as they don't have to help pay for it. They trot out their faith-based common good ideals, but they don't want to contribute to the common good if it requires them to do anything beyond waving the flag.


Well either that or they do donate to charity to help but then spend all their time reminding the recipients of how worthless they are and how they should be so grateful that one of their betters deigned to save them.
 
2013-07-22 01:14:31 AM  

Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.

Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.

And they can refuse treatment for their injuries, and walk out in the woods and die if they want.

And yet they will still be sent a bill for the ambulance.

Forward it to the guy that hit them with his car.

We would, but he got into a tragic leopard accident shortly after returning home.


Well then, mandatory leopard insurance for everyone!
 
2013-07-22 01:14:36 AM  
 
2013-07-22 01:14:44 AM  

make me some tea: feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

What does that even mean?

I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.

Nice copout.


It is nonsense. What do you want it to mean.

This is why I don't like 'serious' political threads in TFD. Everyone says conservatives are terrible, complete arseholes, hate poor people, yet I'm a conservative and I don't think I'm terrible, I don't think I hate poor people. I don't think I'm an arsehole. I'm kind and helpful whenever I can be. I try to be patient and understanding of other's views and opinions, yet I'm unjustly vilified simply because of my political views and who I vote for. They don't let me run the Republican party, if they did it would be different, but I let my elected officials know my thoughts and I help others and my community as best I can.
 
2013-07-22 01:14:53 AM  
Sure someone can refuse medical treatment if they're coherent enough to. But if you get picked up from an accident or you're highly intoxicated, we have the right to treat you without your consent since you cannot provide it. So when you wake up and say hey I want to leave, surely you can leave AMA, but that bill still needs to be paid. Most people cannot afford medical bills without insurance. If you default on those bills, you're hurting other patients more than the hospital in the long run.

And not having nationwide coverage because some people may still cheat the system is dumb.
 
2013-07-22 01:16:08 AM  

feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

What does that even mean?

I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.

Nice copout.

It is nonsense. What do you want it to mean.

This is why I don't like 'serious' political threads in TFD. Everyone says conservatives are terrible, complete arseholes, hate poor people, yet I'm a conservative and I don't think I'm terrible, I don't think I hate poor people. I don't think I'm an arsehole. I'm kind and helpful whenever I can be. I try to be patient and understanding of other's views and opinions, yet I'm unjustly vilified simply because of my political views and who I vote for. They don't let me run the Republican party, if they did it would be different, but I let my elected officials know my thoughts and I help others and my community as best I can.


you're a bad person and you should feel bad

/second
 
2013-07-22 01:17:21 AM  

professorkowalski: Why is it that you only link to articles about minorities committing crimes?


I don't see the race of anyone listed in those that all happened this week. Do you? Why did you assume they are all minorities?
 
2013-07-22 01:17:30 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.

Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and cheat. We have a great country, we help those that truly need it, but it seems that the percentage of liars and cheats is just getting larger and larger. We now have two people who scammed money out of the Boston bombing fund, people who ship food bought with SNAP overseas. I'm just tired of the cheating, it isn't fair to those of us who don't cheat.


So the tiny percentage of those who cheat--who just happen to most often be from the most impoverished segment of our society--provides you the justification to turn your back on healthcare insurance programs meant to help millions of people in need. Rather than concentrate on the small number of miscreants who con any social program, why not concentrate on all those people who do not cheat the system?

I think many conservatives highlight the small percentage of cheaters simply to give themselves an out when they decide to turn their backs on the common good. They can feign moral outrage AND keep their money from helping other people.
 
2013-07-22 01:17:42 AM  

feckingmorons: Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.


Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay? Fifteen percent of people in this country live below the poverty line. That's slightly less than one in six people. When you're below the poverty line, going to a primary care physician may involve choosing between dinner or medical care. In 2011, twenty-three percent of children in America lived below the poverty line. You're  fooling yourself if you think that every one of those children can just have their parents pick up the phone and get  free primary care.

Do you think that the tiny little clinic that dispenses blood pressure medication can pay for chemotherapy when a poor person finds out they have cancer? Do you think the clinic is just going to dispense free health care when little Timmy breaks his leg and needs to go on crutches for a month? When a twenty-year-old in deep poverty finds out that her birth control failed, do you think that the free clinic is just going to help her give birth? When Great-Uncle Jim gets diagnosed with Type II Diabetes, is the clinic going to provide free dialysis for him?

The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care. Every study done in America shows that. In rural areas, and deeply impoverished urban areas, people  die because they can't afford medications. They get sick and they lose their jobs because they can't afford to take a day off of work in order to address a small problem which soon grows into a big one with neglect. And there you are pointing at them and telling them that they just need to  work harder, damn it, because that will somehow make it better.

The rest of your argument boils down to "Because 5-10% of humans scam the system, we should therefore refuse to provide for the 90-95% who do everything right." Which is a nihilistic and somewhat petty argument, don't you think?
 
2013-07-22 01:17:47 AM  

GladGirl: I've always been ultra liberal, but as I've gotten older I've been able to more clearly see why some people have different political philosophies than my own. I don't agree with them, but I'm not as kneejerk dismissive of disagreement as I may once have been.


It's interesting that you've become more accepting of opinions from the other end of the spectrum at the same time that people on the other end of the spectrum are increasingly intolerant of you.
 
2013-07-22 01:19:33 AM  

quatchi: Health Insurance, on the other hand, is something everyone can and does access throughout the course of their lives.

Therefore if you know everyone is gonna take out of the system how does it not make sense to make everyone (who can) pay into the system?


"Make sense"? The Federal government does not have the authority to force me to purchase a third-party product.  It does not have the authority to force me to purchase Skippy Super-Chunk peanut butter, even though that would "make sense" from Skippy's point of view.  It does not have the authority to force me to purchase disposable diapers, even though that would "make sense" from a disposable diaper manufacturer standpoint.  If there is nothing wrong with my health, the Federal government does not have the authority to force me to purchase a plan that is only profitable if I get sick or injured.

Unlike auto insurance, where only liability for damages suffered by the other party are required, ACA health insurance forces someone to cover their own risks.  Obama campaigned against Hillary because her plan required forcing people to buy 3rd party health insurance and Obama's plan did not.  The plan that spineless politician signed into law requires individual fines to be profitable.  If you look at the entire plan, the only way it makes money is by fining people and businesses for non-compliance.
 
2013-07-22 01:21:08 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: So the tiny percentage of those who cheat--who just happen to most often be from the most impoverished segment of our society--provides you the justification to turn your back on healthcare insurance programs meant to help millions of people in need.


I don't see how masquerading as healthcare a new tax to pay for everyone else's health insurance is the answer.

If we need to cover more people in medicaid then simply raise the medicaid taxes, don't force people who don't want a specific kind of insurance to get a government mandated insurance. I could get a 10K high deductible plan and be very pleased with it because I can pay my medical bills and being a nurse I know how to get the best care at the lowest prices (paying cash at time of service and asking for the cash price).

Yet I can't get that plan without being penalized with a tax because it doesn't fit the government model. That seems unfair.
 
2013-07-22 01:21:23 AM  

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care. Every study done in America shows that. In rural areas, and deeply impoverished urban areas, people  die because they can't afford medications. They get sick and they lose their jobs because they can't afford to take a day off of work in order to address a small problem which soon grows into a big one with neglect. And there you are pointing at them and telling them that they just need to  work harder, damn it, because that will somehow make it better.


Well  he didn't have that problem. They should have just tried harder.
 
2013-07-22 01:22:22 AM  
feckingmorons I help others and my community as best I can.

Look, I don't want this to turn into a kickfeckts, because I know you're a good person, but it's a fear we can sense. I know that those of us on the liberal side know what I'm talking about. Fear. Of. The. Other.
 
2013-07-22 01:22:57 AM  

Notabunny: It's interesting that you've become more accepting of opinions from the other end of the spectrum at the same time that people on the other end of the spectrum are increasingly intolerant of you.


for me its not that i'm more accepting of their opinions, as much as i understand WHY they hold those opinions.
 
2013-07-22 01:23:09 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.

Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and cheat. We have a great c ...


So you'd rather they lie and have the government take care of them, rather than buy their own insurance and get charged - under which you claim they are still cheating the system. How do you feel about big corporations that pay zero taxes? Are they cheating too, or just using legal loopholes? Or are you only outraged when the poor, who need the help, do it?

syrynxx: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

No, I don't.  Cars driven on private property do not require auto insurance.


That's not true, at least here. You can still get in an accident on private property. Do you only ever drive on private property?

ElizaDoolittle: MIAppologia: feckingmorons: If I insult politicians you like will you play music loudly and clean my house?
I'll even buy dinner!

Um, sure.  I must warn you, however, that when I cleaned the bathroom, I dipped his toothbrush in the toilet.  :)

Oh I wish you had weighed in on the recent TFD thread about whether you or a "servant" cleans your toilet.   http://bit.ly/12XtbXa


Peanut butter poop thread!
 
2013-07-22 01:23:14 AM  
You wanna save money, in the budget?

Cut End of Life care out of the Medicaid budget.
 
2013-07-22 01:24:05 AM  
lol - no
and it will never, ever happen

the idea that my world views would change enough to embrace .... Palin? Mcbachmann?
yah

I would literally die first.
 
2013-07-22 01:25:07 AM  

syrynxx: The plan that spineless politician signed into law requires individual fines to be profitable.


I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I think you're confusing the "This is a tax" legal rationale with the idea that the law is  actually a tax, which, even though Justice Roberts went through some twisted legal rationale, it isn't really one.

The ACA is not designed to raise revenue.
 
2013-07-22 01:25:24 AM  

professorkowalski: You wanna save money, in the budget?

Cut End of Life care out of the Medicaid budget.


Death Panels then?
 
2013-07-22 01:25:41 AM  

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: So the tiny percentage of those who cheat--who just happen to most often be from the most impoverished segment of our society--provides you the justification to turn your back on healthcare insurance programs meant to help millions of people in need.

I don't see how masquerading as healthcare a new tax to pay for everyone else's health insurance is the answer.

If we need to cover more people in medicaid then simply raise the medicaid taxes, don't force people who don't want a specific kind of insurance to get a government mandated insurance. I could get a 10K high deductible plan and be very pleased with it because I can pay my medical bills and being a nurse I know how to get the best care at the lowest prices (paying cash at time of service and asking for the cash price).

Yet I can't get that plan without being penalized with a tax because it doesn't fit the government model. That seems unfair.


I wish I could get a HDHP plan now.  just give me catastrophic coverage and I can manage the rest
 
2013-07-22 01:25:55 AM  
namatad

lol - no
and it will never, ever happen

the idea that my world views would change enough to embrace .... Palin? Mcbachmann?
yah

I would literally die first.


You are hereby allowed on my lawn again, even if you want to listen to Train.
 
2013-07-22 01:28:40 AM  

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: So the tiny percentage of those who cheat--who just happen to most often be from the most impoverished segment of our society--provides you the justification to turn your back on healthcare insurance programs meant to help millions of people in need.

I don't see how masquerading as healthcare a new tax to pay for everyone else's health insurance is the answer.

If we need to cover more people in medicaid then simply raise the medicaid taxes, don't force people who don't want a specific kind of insurance to get a government mandated insurance. I could get a 10K high deductible plan and be very pleased with it because I can pay my medical bills and being a nurse I know how to get the best care at the lowest prices (paying cash at time of service and asking for the cash price).

Yet I can't get that plan without being penalized with a tax because it doesn't fit the government model. That seems unfair.


Because in order to accomplish any macro social goal, a plan must have some minimum standards. There isn't a chance in hell of doing that if the standard is "we are refraining from requiring a standard because it might affect the 0.0001% of the population who are like feckingmorons, the guy who wants to pay cash for his hospitalization and negotiate special cash prices with the anesthesiologist and the radiologist and the proctocologist."
 
2013-07-22 01:28:55 AM  

SuperTramp: Look, I don't want this to turn into a kickfeckts, because I know you're a good person, but it's a fear we can sense. I know that those of us on the liberal side know what I'm talking about. Fear. Of. The. Other.


To some extent it is fear, but the larger issue is a distinct lack of empathy for others. If most of the rabid conservatives had experienced the same treatment or seen their own loved ones treated that way, they would not behave the same way. You'll note, for instance, how quite a few of the more rabid anti-gay conservatives tone down their rhetoric once a family member comes out.
 
2013-07-22 01:29:05 AM  
professorkowalski
You wanna save money, in the budget?

Cut End of Life care out of the Medicaid budget.


My father is alive right now because of that. Let's go outside, and talk about cutting it for your mother or father.
 
2013-07-22 01:30:21 AM  
angrymacface kudos
 
2013-07-22 01:30:25 AM  

Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?


Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.


They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.
 
2013-07-22 01:30:30 AM  

log_jammin: Notabunny: It's interesting that you've become more accepting of opinions from the other end of the spectrum at the same time that people on the other end of the spectrum are increasingly intolerant of you.

for me its not that i'm more accepting of their opinions, as much as i understand WHY they hold those opinions.


I find that it's perfectly possible to understand  why people hold opinions, and yet still disapprove entirely of the opinions. For instance, after two years of studying Islamic terrorism as part of my job, I found it extremely easy to understand why a firey young Muslim might take up an AK-47 and go join the Haqqani network in Pakistan and try to go kill some Americans.

I may understand it, but I sure as hell don't  approve of it.
 
2013-07-22 01:30:39 AM  

SuperTramp: My father is alive right now because of that. Let's go outside, and talk about cutting it for your mother or father.


I'm playing.

It's not viable.

It's just what the fiscally conservative could say, and get people to believe.

I'd never want to actually see it happen.
 
2013-07-22 01:31:11 AM  
All that being said: I do think the ACA is going to be terribly implemented and probably will end up causing more harm than good. Do not think that the health care industry won't fight tooth and nail to exploit every loophole they can find or buy so they don't actually have to provide the care that the taxpayer money pays for.
 
2013-07-22 01:32:20 AM  
I'm sure all those Gucci purses were real, and that the patient paid for the car themselves with their scammer income. No way was the car paid for by someone else.
 
2013-07-22 01:33:49 AM  

angrymacface: All that being said: I do think the ACA is going to be terribly implemented and probably will end up causing more harm than good. Do not think that the health care industry won't fight tooth and nail to exploit every loophole they can find or buy so they don't actually have to provide the care that the taxpayer money pays for.


Idk. The hospital I'm working at has to essentially redesign our care to ensure we will be reimbursed under the new law.

Great news for patients, bad news for our CEO's
 
2013-07-22 01:34:02 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Because in order to accomplish any macro social goal, a plan must have some minimum standards. There isn't a chance in hell of doing that if the standard is "we are refraining from requiring a standard because it might affect the 0.0001% of the population who are like feckingmorons, the guy who wants to pay cash for his hospitalization and negotiate special cash prices with the anesthesiologist and the radiologist and the proctocologist."


In Florida you don't have to get the legally mandated insurance if you have $40K in escrow (a CD or something) and name the state as a beneficiary. You can opt out if you wish to take on the risk yourself.

We should be allowed to do that with our own health insurance, we should be allowed to opt out of a government program if we agree to, and are capable of accepting the risk.
 
2013-07-22 01:34:54 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?

Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.


That an intelligent guy like you who appears to have real compassion for others can spout nonsense like this is really sad. I'm starting to think you have multiple personalities.
 
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