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(Fark)   Has anyone ever convinced you to change from being conservative to being liberal (or vice versa)?   (fark.com) divider line 737
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1369 clicks; posted to Politics » on 22 Jul 2013 at 2:49 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-22 12:12:39 AM  
No, politics tab----------->
 
2013-07-22 12:13:16 AM  
No, I just get more conservative.
 
2013-07-22 12:13:40 AM  
oh shove it libmitter
 
2013-07-22 12:14:30 AM  
No, I can't be conservative because I actually care about other human beings.

And take it to the politics tab, troll.
 
2013-07-22 12:14:50 AM  
INSTA GREEN?  WTF?
 
2013-07-22 12:15:01 AM  

monty666: No, I can't be conservative because I actually care about other human beings.

And take it to the politics tab, troll.


He did!
 
2013-07-22 12:15:03 AM  
No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.
 
2013-07-22 12:15:13 AM  
The older I get, the more liberal I get.
 
2013-07-22 12:15:39 AM  

MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.


Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.
 
2013-07-22 12:15:51 AM  
Hell no.  I was married to an arch conservative Republican, and the most I'd do is to tell him to stop talking politics around me, since his idea of talking politics was to gravely insult the politicians I admired.

And when that didn't work, I'd just turn the music up loud and clean the house.
 
2013-07-22 12:16:25 AM  
And this goes green? Freakin' trollmins.
 
2013-07-22 12:16:49 AM  

MIAppologia: Hell no.  I was married to an arch conservative Republican, and the most I'd do is to tell him to stop talking politics around me, since his idea of talking politics was to gravely insult the politicians I admired.

And when that didn't work, I'd just turn the music up loud and clean the house.


Jess?
 
2013-07-22 12:17:35 AM  

feckingmorons: MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.

Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.


Your joke is much better than the one I was trying to formulate.
 
2013-07-22 12:17:58 AM  

Heathen: Jess?


Huh?  I believe you have me confused with someone else.  :)
 
2013-07-22 12:18:17 AM  
I was a democrat until I met my ex several years ago. Then he told me more about republican and it made sense. I'm still kind of in the middle of the two parties but am more to the right than in the past. I still mostly vote for the right candidate versus voting for which party they're affiliated with.
 
2013-07-22 12:19:13 AM  

MIAppologia: Hell no.  I was married to an arch conservative Republican, and the most I'd do is to tell him to stop talking politics around me, since his idea of talking politics was to gravely insult the politicians I admired.

And when that didn't work, I'd just turn the music up loud and clean the house.


If I insult politicians you like will you play music loudly and clean my house?
I'll even buy dinner!
 
2013-07-22 12:19:24 AM  
Yeah, when Bush the Younger got the power to arrest and execute without trial any American citizen, just by naming them a terrorist.  F*ck you Obama for not having the balls to grant habeus corpus to everyone in Guantanamo Bay.  Who am I going to vote for now?  It's obvious the political parties are both corrupt.
 
2013-07-22 12:19:39 AM  
No, I prefer to do my own thinking instead of having someone else do it for me. It makes me a riot at family get-togethers. Also this:

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.

 
2013-07-22 12:19:56 AM  

MappingChick: feckingmorons: MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.

Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.

Your joke is much better than the one I was trying to formulate.


hateandanger.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-07-22 12:20:09 AM  

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


I figure I'm going to hit 180 degrees one of these days and plaster Jerry Brown stickers on my car.
 
2013-07-22 12:20:20 AM  

syrynxx: Who am I going to vote for now?


Pedro.
 
2013-07-22 12:20:45 AM  

feckingmorons: If I insult politicians you like will you play music loudly and clean my house?
I'll even buy dinner!


Um, sure.  I must warn you, however, that when I cleaned the bathroom, I dipped his toothbrush in the toilet.  :)
 
2013-07-22 12:20:47 AM  

syrynxx: Yeah, when Bush the Younger got the power to arrest and execute without trial any American citizen, just by naming them a terrorist.


I think you have that confused with the current administration which blows them up from the sky.
 
2013-07-22 12:20:51 AM  

doglover: MappingChick: feckingmorons: MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.

Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.

Your joke is much better than the one I was trying to formulate.

[hateandanger.files.wordpress.com image 500x587]


I really have to get a cowboy hat.
 
2013-07-22 12:20:51 AM  
When I was a kid, I was a super arch-conservative. When I was a teenager, I was a kneejerk liberal. Somewhere along the line, the pants-on-head idiocy of both ends of the spectrum convinced me that neither side has any f*cking clue what they're doing, so I just subscribe to the beliefs from the Federalist Papers now.

/#10 was the best, and has still never been honored by our lawmakers
 
2013-07-22 12:21:31 AM  

MIAppologia: feckingmorons: If I insult politicians you like will you play music loudly and clean my house?
I'll even buy dinner!

Um, sure.  I must warn you, however, that when I cleaned the bathroom, I dipped his toothbrush in the toilet.  :)


Oh, um ... nevermind.
 
2013-07-22 12:21:59 AM  

monty666: doglover: MappingChick: feckingmorons: MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.

Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.

Your joke is much better than the one I was trying to formulate.

[hateandanger.files.wordpress.com image 500x587]

I really have to get a cowboy hat.


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-22 12:23:16 AM  
feckingmorons
No, I just get more conservative.

This is why you and I are but two ships that pass in the night. And just so you know, I have torpedos, too.
 
2013-07-22 12:23:17 AM  
Life experiences have pushed me to become more libertarian.
 
2013-07-22 12:23:42 AM  

doglover: monty666: doglover: MappingChick: feckingmorons: MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.

Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.

Your joke is much better than the one I was trying to formulate.

[hateandanger.files.wordpress.com image 500x587]

I really have to get a cowboy hat.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 570x402]


I'm thinking more Roofie Cowboy. Yeee-ha!
 
2013-07-22 12:23:51 AM  
I seem to oscillate between the two.

/Or is it "vacillate"
//Oscillate...vacillate
///Someone just tell me what to think!
 
2013-07-22 12:24:05 AM  

monty666: doglover: MappingChick: feckingmorons: MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.

Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.

Your joke is much better than the one I was trying to formulate.

[hateandanger.files.wordpress.com image 500x587]

I really have to get a cowboy hat.


I really need to WEAR my Cowboy hat.

/my head (hair) shrank
 
2013-07-22 12:24:35 AM  

monty666: doglover: monty666: doglover: MappingChick: feckingmorons: MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.

Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.

Your joke is much better than the one I was trying to formulate.

[hateandanger.files.wordpress.com image 500x587]

I really have to get a cowboy hat.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 570x402]

I'm thinking more Roofie Cowboy. Yeee-ha!


i25.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-22 12:24:41 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons
No, I just get more conservative.

This is why you and I are but two ships that pass in the night. And just so you know, I have torpedos, too.


Like Madonna?
 
2013-07-22 12:25:58 AM  
EatenTheSun
Life experiences have pushed me to become more libertarian.

I hear you. Who the hell would get pimples, become socially awkward, obese, read Ayn Rand, and live in their mom's basement on purpose?
 
2013-07-22 12:27:37 AM  

SuperTramp: EatenTheSun
Life experiences have pushed me to become more libertarian.

I hear you. Who the hell would get pimples, become socially awkward, obese, read Ayn Rand, and live in their mom's basement on purpose?


I've only ever done 3 of those things.
 
2013-07-22 12:29:27 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons
No, I just get more conservative.

This is why you and I are but two ships that pass in the night. And just so you know, I have torpedos, too.


I bet they're lovely.

/I'm writing in Nixon for 2016.
 
2013-07-22 12:29:27 AM  
EatenTheSun
Like Madonna?

It was a metaphor, dear
 
2013-07-22 12:30:31 AM  

sn82: I was a democrat until I met my ex several years ago. Then he told me more about republican and it made sense. I'm still kind of in the middle of the two parties but am more to the right than in the past. I still mostly vote for the right candidate versus voting for which party they're affiliated with.


As an ex-conservatve, what "made sense" to you specifically?
 
2013-07-22 12:30:55 AM  

SuperTramp: EatenTheSun
Life experiences have pushed me to become more libertarian.

I hear you. Who the hell would get pimples, become socially awkward, obese, read Ayn Rand, and live in their mom's basement on purpose?


Do you know how much money I would save if I could live in my mom's basement?

/she lives on the top floor of a condo building.
// I suppose I could live in her parking spot.
 
2013-07-22 12:30:55 AM  
On some issues, yeah. Socially I'm quite liberal, fiscally I'm progressive, on national security I'm all over the map depending on the specific matter at hand and for the most part, I'm what happens when you invite a Lean/Kaizen engineer to the poli-sci majors' table and everyone's head starts to hurt.

There's no party in the 'verse that would want me as a member. As it should be.
 
2013-07-22 12:30:56 AM  

doglover: monty666: doglover: monty666: doglover: MappingChick: feckingmorons: MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.

Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.

Your joke is much better than the one I was trying to formulate.

[hateandanger.files.wordpress.com image 500x587]

I really have to get a cowboy hat.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 570x402]

I'm thinking more Roofie Cowboy. Yeee-ha!

[i25.photobucket.com image 400x400]


Perfect.

I wonder whatever happened to that dude.
 
2013-07-22 12:32:39 AM  
The more I hear conservatives babble about their hatred and fear and narrow-mindedness and misogyny, the more I want to be exactly the opposite of them.
 
2013-07-22 12:32:42 AM  

make me some tea: sn82: I was a democrat until I met my ex several years ago. Then he told me more about republican and it made sense. I'm still kind of in the middle of the two parties but am more to the right than in the past. I still mostly vote for the right candidate versus voting for which party they're affiliated with.

As an ex-conservatve, what "made sense" to you specifically?


The theory of small government and not spending as much as democrats do.
 
2013-07-22 12:32:48 AM  

SuperTramp: EatenTheSun
Like Madonna?

It was a metaphor, dear


I stand by my original question.
 
2013-07-22 12:33:24 AM  
feckingmorons

/I'm writing in Nixon for 2016.

Hardly surprising, since you seem to be stuck in the past. Oh. gee. Is that what you're hoping to "conserve"? A time when men were men, and women were barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and The Pentagon Papers were just a dream? :)
 
2013-07-22 12:34:39 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons

/I'm writing in Nixon for 2016.

Hardly surprising, since you seem to be stuck in the past. Oh. gee. Is that what you're hoping to "conserve"? A time when men were men, and women were barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and The Pentagon Papers were just a dream? :)


No, my sanity. Probably a lost cause.

I want to live next to Ozzie and Harriet. I want a maid named Hazel.

And goats. I want goats.
 
2013-07-22 12:35:36 AM  
I was quite conservative when I was young (raised Catholic, later became a born-again Christian; was a Reagan Republican who also voted for Bush the Elder). Bad personal experiences led me to question my faith; that, and learning the history of Christianity and other belief systems made me realize that religion was bullshiat. By the late 1980s, conservative Christians had taken over the GOP (I guess I was more of a Barry Goldwater Republican, now that I think about it), and I quit the party in disgust in 1992.

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


This.
 
2013-07-22 12:36:50 AM  

EatenTheSun: SuperTramp: EatenTheSun
Like Madonna?

It was a metaphor, dear

I stand by my original question.


Stop pushing
 
2013-07-22 12:37:29 AM  

make me some tea: As an ex-conservatve


I think that's a touchy word.  I'd still like to think I'm fiscally-conservative, but "socially conservative" is just a code word for "legislating what we imagine the Bible's version of morality to be".  F* that.  I don't support fining people who don't purchase 3rd-party health insurance.  The US government has no more right to force me to buy 3rd-party health insurance than it does to force me to buy ketchup or soup or footwear.  It certainly doesn't have the authority to penalize me for not buying a commercial product.
 
2013-07-22 12:37:48 AM  
feckingmorons

And goats. I want goats.

Everyone wants goats.
 
2013-07-22 12:37:54 AM  

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


Me too. I basically see too many conservatives clinging to their idea of a past that never really was without adding much of substance to the discussion while liberals stumble in the main but still make progress towards a better future.

I've seen society evolve a lot in my lifetime so far and it's practically all due to progressive liberal beliefs which have made their progress despite the naysaying, foot dragging and open rejection by conservative forces.
 
2013-07-22 12:39:09 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons

And goats. I want goats.

Everyone wants goats.


I actually think I might be a liberal who doesn't like to pay taxes.
 
2013-07-22 12:39:23 AM  
www.damninteresting.com
 
2013-07-22 12:40:35 AM  

syrynxx: make me some tea: As an ex-conservatve

I think that's a touchy word.  I'd still like to think I'm fiscally-conservative, but "socially conservative" is just a code word for "legislating what we imagine the Bible's version of morality to be".  F* that.  I don't support fining people who don't purchase 3rd-party health insurance.  The US government has no more right to force me to buy 3rd-party health insurance than it does to force me to buy ketchup or soup or footwear.  It certainly doesn't have the authority to penalize me for not buying a commercial product.


You do realize that the AHCA is essentially a give-away to the health insurance industry, don't you. Don't you?
 
2013-07-22 12:43:06 AM  
Once I realized that conservatives are horribly selfish people, I realized I didn't want to be one.
 
2013-07-22 12:43:20 AM  

syrynxx: make me some tea: As an ex-conservatve

I think that's a touchy word.  I'd still like to think I'm fiscally-conservative, but "socially conservative" is just a code word for "legislating what we imagine the Bible's version of morality to be".  F* that.  I don't support fining people who don't purchase 3rd-party health insurance.  The US government has no more right to force me to buy 3rd-party health insurance than it does to force me to buy ketchup or soup or footwear.  It certainly doesn't have the authority to penalize me for not buying a commercial product.


It is not a penalty, it is a tax.

Those are markedly different I'm told.

/They'll never have that thing running before I retire in 20 some years. By then I'll be in Mexico or taking a dirt nap.
 
2013-07-22 12:43:41 AM  
feckingmorons

I actually think I might be a liberal who doesn't like to pay taxes.

From henceforth, I shall call you Jeremiah Johnson. A rugged individualist, making his way through the wilderness with his horse and a herd of goats.
 
2013-07-22 12:45:23 AM  
I think fiscal conservatives with more moderate views don't stand a chance with the right wing extremists ready to cannibalize anyone in their own ranks who even appears to stray from fundamentalist Christian dogma. In today's GOP, it's not good enough to espouse conservative fiscal views. You also have to hate on gays and women and the poor and "freeloaders" who want their SS benefits after decades of paying into the system. Smart people who want to help the country economically don't stand a chance against the moral idiocy block that controls the party.
 
2013-07-22 12:45:28 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons

I actually think I might be a liberal who doesn't like to pay taxes.

From henceforth, I shall call you Jeremiah Johnson. A rugged individualist, making his way through the wilderness with his horse and a herd of goats.


And bacon and tea and good TP.

Other than that I am set.
 
2013-07-22 12:45:42 AM  

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


^^^
 
2013-07-22 12:45:44 AM  

sn82: The theory of small government and not spending as much as democrats do.


I'd prefer that we paid for our spending rather than continually kick the can. The Democrats seem the closest to doing that.
 
2013-07-22 12:47:55 AM  

feckingmorons: SuperTramp: feckingmorons

And goats. I want goats.

Everyone wants goats.

I actually think I might be a liberal who doesn't like to pay taxes.


Look, despite the propaganda you have have heard, no one likes to pay taxes. It's just that a lot of us see it as a necessary evil to maintain things that contribute to the common good.
 
2013-07-22 12:49:08 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Smart people who want to help the country economically don't stand a chance against the moral idiocy block that controls the party.


This is sadly true. Can't get good candidates thru the primaries.
 
2013-07-22 12:49:31 AM  

Abacus9: No, I prefer to do my own thinking instead of having someone else do it for me. It makes me a riot at family get-togethers. Also this:

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


Yeah, my family are mostly all republicans and not afraid to voice it. I guess they all assume everyone they know are, too. They know now where I stand but I refuse to get into it with them because its not worth it.
 
2013-07-22 12:49:37 AM  

angrymacface: Once I realized that conservatives are horribly selfish people, I realized I didn't want to be one.


I know, right - like that Neil Armstrong guy taking the moon all for himself.
 
2013-07-22 12:50:39 AM  

sn82: The theory of small government and not spending as much as democrats do.


Have you really taken the time to think this through? I used to be very libertarian too, mind you. I've determined that's also not a sustainable path.
 
2013-07-22 12:50:55 AM  
feckingmorons
And bacon and tea and good TP.

Other than that I am set.


Okay, add a herd of pigs. But the tea, and the TP might be a little problematic unless you're willing to spend some time growing the tea and the trees.

Otherwise, you're dependent upon the labor of others. And those who labor on your behalf have a right to be treated humanely. Safe working conditions, a living wage, decent affordable health care, a safe place to sleep at night. To think otherwise is to imagine yourself a king at best, a tyrant at worst.
 
2013-07-22 12:51:27 AM  

make me some tea: feckingmorons: SuperTramp: feckingmorons

And goats. I want goats.

Everyone wants goats.

I actually think I might be a liberal who doesn't like to pay taxes.

Look, despite the propaganda you have have heard, no one likes to pay taxes. It's just that a lot of us see it as a necessary evil to maintain things that contribute to the common good.


I'd settle for the common mediocre.
 
2013-07-22 12:51:52 AM  

sn82: make me some tea: sn82: I was a democrat until I met my ex several years ago. Then he told me more about republican and it made sense. I'm still kind of in the middle of the two parties but am more to the right than in the past. I still mostly vote for the right candidate versus voting for which party they're affiliated with.

As an ex-conservatve, what "made sense" to you specifically?

The theory of small government and not spending as much as democrats do.


If you think conservatives care about small government and less spending, perhaps you don't remember GWB? Starting unnecessary wars, greatly expanding the power of government under the Patriot Act, Defense of Marriage and all that?

syrynxx: The US government has no more right to force me to buy 3rd-party health insurance than it does to force me to buy ketchup or soup or footwear. It certainly doesn't have the authority to penalize me for not buying a commercial product.


You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?
 
2013-07-22 12:52:10 AM  
Growing up, I read a lot of military sci-fi and fantasy, and things with a fairly libertarian bent. But the older I got, the more I realized how absurd some of the stuff was, and the more liberal I got. In the last few years, I've drifted even farther from the center and towards the left.

When I was in High SChool, you could probably describe me as a centrist Democrat. Now I'm much more progressive and leftist in a wide variety of ways, mostly due to the influence of my girlfriend, who is practically a communist.
 
2013-07-22 12:52:25 AM  

Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?


You don't have to own a car.
 
2013-07-22 12:52:54 AM  

syrynxx: make me some tea: As an ex-conservatve

I think that's a touchy word.  I'd still like to think I'm fiscally-conservative, but "socially conservative" is just a code word for "legislating what we imagine the Bible's version of morality to be".  F* that.  I don't support fining people who don't purchase 3rd-party health insurance.  The US government has no more right to force me to buy 3rd-party health insurance than it does to force me to buy ketchup or soup or footwear.  It certainly doesn't have the authority to penalize me for not buying a commercial product.


As SCOTUS determined (correctly, I might add), you have a right to abstain from buying a health insurance plan, but you'll be obligated to pay more tax on April 15th.
 
2013-07-22 12:53:07 AM  

Abacus9: If you think conservatives care about small government and less spending, perhaps you don't remember GWB? Starting unnecessary wars, greatly expanding the power of government under the Patriot Act, Defense of Marriage and all that?


Don't forget making government so small they can shove it up a woman's vagina.
 
2013-07-22 12:53:14 AM  

Rincewind53: Growing up, I read a lot of military sci-fi and fantasy, and things with a fairly libertarian bent. But the older I got, the more I realized how absurd some of the stuff was, and the more liberal I got. In the last few years, I've drifted even farther from the center and towards the left.

When I was in High SChool, you could probably describe me as a centrist Democrat. Now I'm much more progressive and leftist in a wide variety of ways, mostly due to the influence of my girlfriend, who is practically a communist.


Well you are in law school. You couldn't find a Republican with a search party and a weeks worth of Ramen noodles.
 
2013-07-22 12:53:22 AM  
Conservatists are a bunch of assholes
 
2013-07-22 12:53:38 AM  

feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.


What does that even mean?
 
2013-07-22 12:53:45 AM  
Republicans are about as far as you can get from small government and fiscal intelligence. They fiddle and back bite while Rome burns.
 
2013-07-22 12:54:28 AM  

make me some tea: feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

What does that even mean?


I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.
 
2013-07-22 12:54:37 AM  

feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.


But you do have to have health care (literally everyone will incur a hospital bill in their lifetime). And someone has to pay for it. So it's either going to be the government and therefore your fellow taxpayers, or it's going to be you.
 
2013-07-22 12:54:41 AM  

feckingmorons: I actually think I might be a liberal who doesn't like to pay taxes.


Naw, you're not a liberal who doesn't like to pay taxes. Nor a patriot either.

We got into two wars during Bush II and the Republican Congress. They also cut taxes in 2001 (good-bye budget surplus) and in 2003 after we invaded Iraq. Paying taxes to cover the wars and to keep us in surplus to pay down debt would have been patriotic.

/Being patriotic is more than just sending somebody else's kids to fight in wars.
 
2013-07-22 12:55:13 AM  

Triumph: angrymacface: Once I realized that conservatives are horribly selfish people, I realized I didn't want to be one.

I know, right - like that Neil Armstrong guy taking the moon all for himself.


Well, considering the fact he blew up the moon so that no one else would ever be able to walk on it, I'd say so.
 
2013-07-22 12:55:26 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Growing up, I read a lot of military sci-fi and fantasy, and things with a fairly libertarian bent. But the older I got, the more I realized how absurd some of the stuff was, and the more liberal I got. In the last few years, I've drifted even farther from the center and towards the left.

When I was in High SChool, you could probably describe me as a centrist Democrat. Now I'm much more progressive and leftist in a wide variety of ways, mostly due to the influence of my girlfriend, who is practically a communist.

Well you are in law school. You couldn't find a Republican with a search party and a weeks worth of Ramen noodles.


Just look for the law students who are failing civil rights class. Those are Republicans.
 
2013-07-22 12:55:29 AM  
Someone once said "Fartbama" and that totally made me switch over to the conservative side.
 
2013-07-22 12:55:45 AM  

feckingmorons: Well you are in law school. You couldn't find a Republican with a search party and a weeks worth of Ramen noodles.


Not true at all, I'm good friends with the head of the Federalist Society, who's a member of the Armed Forces. He's an awesome guy.

/I'll admit he's outnumbered.
//I go to a "Catholic" law school, so there's a lot more Republicans than, say, at Yale.
 
2013-07-22 12:55:47 AM  

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

But you do have to have health care (literally everyone will incur a hospital bill in their lifetime). And someone has to pay for it. So it's either going to be the government and therefore your fellow taxpayers, or it's going to be you.


I love you.
 
2013-07-22 12:56:12 AM  

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

But you do have to have health care (literally everyone will incur a hospital bill in their lifetime). And someone has to pay for it. So it's either going to be the government and therefore your fellow taxpayers, or it's going to be you.


So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.
 
2013-07-22 12:56:22 AM  

rappy: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

But you do have to have health care (literally everyone will incur a hospital bill in their lifetime). And someone has to pay for it. So it's either going to be the government and therefore your fellow taxpayers, or it's going to be you.

I love you.


media.sdreader.com
 
2013-07-22 12:56:27 AM  
No, but I did eventually concede to the fact that it did not taste great (it tasted awful), but was indeed less filling.
 
2013-07-22 12:57:17 AM  

Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care


No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.
 
2013-07-22 12:57:51 AM  

feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.


The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.
 
2013-07-22 12:57:51 AM  

feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.


You don't have to live.

brownlady79: Abacus9: No, I prefer to do my own thinking instead of having someone else do it for me. It makes me a riot at family get-togethers. Also this:

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.

Yeah, my family are mostly all republicans and not afraid to voice it. I guess they all assume everyone they know are, too. They know now where I stand but I refuse to get into it with them because its not worth it.


Same here, both sides are ultra-conservative, and they consider me the libbiest lib that ever libbed (which isn't completely true). They also consider me the smartest in the family, go figure.
 
2013-07-22 12:58:25 AM  

feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

What does that even mean?

I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.


Nice copout.
 
2013-07-22 12:58:40 AM  

EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.


Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.
 
2013-07-22 12:59:18 AM  

syrynxx: I don't support fining people who don't purchase 3rd-party health insurance.  The US government has no more right to force me to buy 3rd-party health insurance than it does to force me to buy ketchup or soup or footwear.  It certainly doesn't have the authority to penalize me for not buying a commercial product.


Quit whining like a baby. Congress and President Obama signed it into law. SCOTUS backed them up.

Be a responsible person and buy health insurance like a real American. Quit depending on us taxpayers to foot your bill when you get sick or hurt without coverage.
 
2013-07-22 12:59:55 AM  

feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

make me some tea: What does that even mean?

feckingmorons: I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.


About gotdang time, I say..
 
2013-07-22 01:00:40 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

But you do have to have health care (literally everyone will incur a hospital bill in their lifetime). And someone has to pay for it. So it's either going to be the government and therefore your fellow taxpayers, or it's going to be you.

So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.


Yeah, you can buy a ton of health insurance with the net from those $145/wk service jobs. If you think there aren't millions of people in this country who work hard and take care of families and want to be contributors, not freeloaders, yet are completely hobbled by the lack of decent paying jobs, you are wilfully ignorant of reality.
 
2013-07-22 01:00:46 AM  

feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.


Because you don't need to own a  car.

Therefore you may not in your lifetime need to ever purchase auto insurance.

Health Insurance, on the other hand, is something everyone can and does access throughout the course of their lives.

Therefore if you know everyone is gonna take out of the system how does it not make sense to make everyone (who can) pay into the system?
 
2013-07-22 01:01:41 AM  
By the way, I'm still a moderate Democrat who certainly will not become a conservative. They whine too much on AM radio for my taste.
 
2013-07-22 01:01:45 AM  

Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.

Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.


And they can refuse treatment for their injuries, and walk out in the woods and die if they want.
 
2013-07-22 01:02:58 AM  

EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.

Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.

And they can refuse treatment for their injuries, and walk out in the woods and die if they want.


And yet they will still be sent a bill for the ambulance.
 
2013-07-22 01:03:07 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

But you do have to have health care (literally everyone will incur a hospital bill in their lifetime). And someone has to pay for it. So it's either going to be the government and therefore your fellow taxpayers, or it's going to be you.

So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.


So, you are against the government penalizing someone for not buying insurance. Does this mean that you'd rather the government take care of them through a socialistic health care plan, paid for by taxpayers; or would you rather they just die?

TommyymmoT: No, but I did eventually concede to the fact that it did not taste great (it tasted awful), but was indeed less filling.


TASTES GREAT!
 
2013-07-22 01:04:13 AM  
AirForceVet

Quit whining like a baby. Congress and President Obama signed it into law. SCOTUS backed them up.

Be a responsible person and buy health insurance like a real American. Quit depending on us taxpayers to foot your bill when you get sick or hurt without coverage.


You're missing the goddamn point. As it stand, the ACHA does damned near nothing to cut out the profit motive of the health care INDUSTRY.

FOR PROFIT health care.

Until we eliminate the profit motive, things will not change, no matter who is paying, or subsidizing the premium.
 
2013-07-22 01:05:02 AM  

Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.

Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.

And they can refuse treatment for their injuries, and walk out in the woods and die if they want.

And yet they will still be sent a bill for the ambulance.


Forward it to the guy that hit them with his car.
 
2013-07-22 01:05:35 AM  

quatchi: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

Because you don't need to own a  car.

Therefore you may not in your lifetime need to ever purchase auto insurance.

Health Insurance, on the other hand, is something everyone can and does access throughout the course of their lives.

Therefore if you know everyone is gonna take out of the system how does it not make sense to make everyone (who can) pay into the system?


You'll get all sorts of arguments, but what it basically boils down to is:
"How dare you suggest that MY money go towards other people. It's MY money. MINE. I'll do what I want with it. And if those other people weren't so worthless, they'd be able to afford healthcare, so they deserve to do without. I'm certainly not letting them have MY money."
 
2013-07-22 01:06:00 AM  

Rincewind53: [media.sdreader.com image 421x599]


I prefer:
i1156.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-22 01:07:09 AM  

CommieTaoist: Rincewind53: [media.sdreader.com image 421x599]

I prefer:
[i1156.photobucket.com image 348x597]


Ha!
 
2013-07-22 01:07:33 AM  
I've always been ultra liberal, but as I've gotten older I've been able to more clearly see why some people have different political philosophies than my own. I don't agree with them, but I'm not as kneejerk dismissive of disagreement as I may once have been.
 
2013-07-22 01:07:45 AM  

EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.

Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.

And they can refuse treatment for their injuries, and walk out in the woods and die if they want.

And yet they will still be sent a bill for the ambulance.

Forward it to the guy that hit them with his car.


We would, but he got into a tragic leopard accident shortly after returning home.
 
2013-07-22 01:08:36 AM  

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.


Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and cheat. We have a great country, we help those that truly need it, but it seems that the percentage of liars and cheats is just getting larger and larger. We now have two people who scammed money out of the Boston bombing fund, people who ship food bought with SNAP overseas. I'm just tired of the cheating, it isn't fair to those of us who don't cheat.
 
2013-07-22 01:10:02 AM  

MIAppologia: feckingmorons: If I insult politicians you like will you play music loudly and clean my house?
I'll even buy dinner!

Um, sure.  I must warn you, however, that when I cleaned the bathroom, I dipped his toothbrush in the toilet.  :)


Oh I wish you had weighed in on the recent TFD thread about whether you or a "servant" cleans your toilet.   http://bit.ly/12XtbXa
 
2013-07-22 01:10:32 AM  
the words "conservative" and "liberal" mean nothing in american politics anymore beyond name calling.
 
2013-07-22 01:10:37 AM  

angrymacface: quatchi: feckingmorons: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

You don't have to own a car.

Because you don't need to own a  car.

Therefore you may not in your lifetime need to ever purchase auto insurance.

Health Insurance, on the other hand, is something everyone can and does access throughout the course of their lives.

Therefore if you know everyone is gonna take out of the system how does it not make sense to make everyone (who can) pay into the system?

You'll get all sorts of arguments, but what it basically boils down to is:
"How dare you suggest that MY money go towards other people. It's MY money. MINE. I'll do what I want with it. And if those other people weren't so worthless, they'd be able to afford healthcare, so they deserve to do without. I'm certainly not letting them have MY money."


Yeah, conservatives are just great at shouting their Christian charity and compassion and mercy slogans to the world . . . as long as they don't have to help pay for it. They trot out their faith-based common good ideals, but they don't want to contribute to the common good if it requires them to do anything beyond waving the flag.
 
2013-07-22 01:11:09 AM  

Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?


No, I don't.  Cars driven on private property do not require auto insurance.
 
2013-07-22 01:11:26 AM  
feckingmorons: but it seems that the percentage of liars and cheats is just getting larger and larger.

So you want to talk about the Koch Brothers and ALEC yet?
 
2013-07-22 01:12:36 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.

Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and ch ...


Why is it that you only link to articles about minorities committing crimes?
 
2013-07-22 01:14:24 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Yeah, conservatives are just great at shouting their Christian charity and compassion and mercy slogans to the world . . . as long as they don't have to help pay for it. They trot out their faith-based common good ideals, but they don't want to contribute to the common good if it requires them to do anything beyond waving the flag.


Well either that or they do donate to charity to help but then spend all their time reminding the recipients of how worthless they are and how they should be so grateful that one of their betters deigned to save them.
 
2013-07-22 01:14:31 AM  

Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: EatenTheSun: Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care

No you don't. It is entirely possible to choose not to receive health care. It doesn't make for a long life span, but it is possible.

Even Christian Scientists get hit by cars.

And they can refuse treatment for their injuries, and walk out in the woods and die if they want.

And yet they will still be sent a bill for the ambulance.

Forward it to the guy that hit them with his car.

We would, but he got into a tragic leopard accident shortly after returning home.


Well then, mandatory leopard insurance for everyone!
 
2013-07-22 01:14:36 AM  
 
2013-07-22 01:14:44 AM  

make me some tea: feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

What does that even mean?

I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.

Nice copout.


It is nonsense. What do you want it to mean.

This is why I don't like 'serious' political threads in TFD. Everyone says conservatives are terrible, complete arseholes, hate poor people, yet I'm a conservative and I don't think I'm terrible, I don't think I hate poor people. I don't think I'm an arsehole. I'm kind and helpful whenever I can be. I try to be patient and understanding of other's views and opinions, yet I'm unjustly vilified simply because of my political views and who I vote for. They don't let me run the Republican party, if they did it would be different, but I let my elected officials know my thoughts and I help others and my community as best I can.
 
2013-07-22 01:14:53 AM  
Sure someone can refuse medical treatment if they're coherent enough to. But if you get picked up from an accident or you're highly intoxicated, we have the right to treat you without your consent since you cannot provide it. So when you wake up and say hey I want to leave, surely you can leave AMA, but that bill still needs to be paid. Most people cannot afford medical bills without insurance. If you default on those bills, you're hurting other patients more than the hospital in the long run.

And not having nationwide coverage because some people may still cheat the system is dumb.
 
2013-07-22 01:16:08 AM  

feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

What does that even mean?

I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.

Nice copout.

It is nonsense. What do you want it to mean.

This is why I don't like 'serious' political threads in TFD. Everyone says conservatives are terrible, complete arseholes, hate poor people, yet I'm a conservative and I don't think I'm terrible, I don't think I hate poor people. I don't think I'm an arsehole. I'm kind and helpful whenever I can be. I try to be patient and understanding of other's views and opinions, yet I'm unjustly vilified simply because of my political views and who I vote for. They don't let me run the Republican party, if they did it would be different, but I let my elected officials know my thoughts and I help others and my community as best I can.


you're a bad person and you should feel bad

/second
 
2013-07-22 01:17:21 AM  

professorkowalski: Why is it that you only link to articles about minorities committing crimes?


I don't see the race of anyone listed in those that all happened this week. Do you? Why did you assume they are all minorities?
 
2013-07-22 01:17:30 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.

Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and cheat. We have a great country, we help those that truly need it, but it seems that the percentage of liars and cheats is just getting larger and larger. We now have two people who scammed money out of the Boston bombing fund, people who ship food bought with SNAP overseas. I'm just tired of the cheating, it isn't fair to those of us who don't cheat.


So the tiny percentage of those who cheat--who just happen to most often be from the most impoverished segment of our society--provides you the justification to turn your back on healthcare insurance programs meant to help millions of people in need. Rather than concentrate on the small number of miscreants who con any social program, why not concentrate on all those people who do not cheat the system?

I think many conservatives highlight the small percentage of cheaters simply to give themselves an out when they decide to turn their backs on the common good. They can feign moral outrage AND keep their money from helping other people.
 
2013-07-22 01:17:42 AM  

feckingmorons: Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.


Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay? Fifteen percent of people in this country live below the poverty line. That's slightly less than one in six people. When you're below the poverty line, going to a primary care physician may involve choosing between dinner or medical care. In 2011, twenty-three percent of children in America lived below the poverty line. You're  fooling yourself if you think that every one of those children can just have their parents pick up the phone and get  free primary care.

Do you think that the tiny little clinic that dispenses blood pressure medication can pay for chemotherapy when a poor person finds out they have cancer? Do you think the clinic is just going to dispense free health care when little Timmy breaks his leg and needs to go on crutches for a month? When a twenty-year-old in deep poverty finds out that her birth control failed, do you think that the free clinic is just going to help her give birth? When Great-Uncle Jim gets diagnosed with Type II Diabetes, is the clinic going to provide free dialysis for him?

The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care. Every study done in America shows that. In rural areas, and deeply impoverished urban areas, people  die because they can't afford medications. They get sick and they lose their jobs because they can't afford to take a day off of work in order to address a small problem which soon grows into a big one with neglect. And there you are pointing at them and telling them that they just need to  work harder, damn it, because that will somehow make it better.

The rest of your argument boils down to "Because 5-10% of humans scam the system, we should therefore refuse to provide for the 90-95% who do everything right." Which is a nihilistic and somewhat petty argument, don't you think?
 
2013-07-22 01:17:47 AM  

GladGirl: I've always been ultra liberal, but as I've gotten older I've been able to more clearly see why some people have different political philosophies than my own. I don't agree with them, but I'm not as kneejerk dismissive of disagreement as I may once have been.


It's interesting that you've become more accepting of opinions from the other end of the spectrum at the same time that people on the other end of the spectrum are increasingly intolerant of you.
 
2013-07-22 01:19:33 AM  

quatchi: Health Insurance, on the other hand, is something everyone can and does access throughout the course of their lives.

Therefore if you know everyone is gonna take out of the system how does it not make sense to make everyone (who can) pay into the system?


"Make sense"? The Federal government does not have the authority to force me to purchase a third-party product.  It does not have the authority to force me to purchase Skippy Super-Chunk peanut butter, even though that would "make sense" from Skippy's point of view.  It does not have the authority to force me to purchase disposable diapers, even though that would "make sense" from a disposable diaper manufacturer standpoint.  If there is nothing wrong with my health, the Federal government does not have the authority to force me to purchase a plan that is only profitable if I get sick or injured.

Unlike auto insurance, where only liability for damages suffered by the other party are required, ACA health insurance forces someone to cover their own risks.  Obama campaigned against Hillary because her plan required forcing people to buy 3rd party health insurance and Obama's plan did not.  The plan that spineless politician signed into law requires individual fines to be profitable.  If you look at the entire plan, the only way it makes money is by fining people and businesses for non-compliance.
 
2013-07-22 01:21:08 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: So the tiny percentage of those who cheat--who just happen to most often be from the most impoverished segment of our society--provides you the justification to turn your back on healthcare insurance programs meant to help millions of people in need.


I don't see how masquerading as healthcare a new tax to pay for everyone else's health insurance is the answer.

If we need to cover more people in medicaid then simply raise the medicaid taxes, don't force people who don't want a specific kind of insurance to get a government mandated insurance. I could get a 10K high deductible plan and be very pleased with it because I can pay my medical bills and being a nurse I know how to get the best care at the lowest prices (paying cash at time of service and asking for the cash price).

Yet I can't get that plan without being penalized with a tax because it doesn't fit the government model. That seems unfair.
 
2013-07-22 01:21:23 AM  

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care. Every study done in America shows that. In rural areas, and deeply impoverished urban areas, people  die because they can't afford medications. They get sick and they lose their jobs because they can't afford to take a day off of work in order to address a small problem which soon grows into a big one with neglect. And there you are pointing at them and telling them that they just need to  work harder, damn it, because that will somehow make it better.


Well  he didn't have that problem. They should have just tried harder.
 
2013-07-22 01:22:22 AM  
feckingmorons I help others and my community as best I can.

Look, I don't want this to turn into a kickfeckts, because I know you're a good person, but it's a fear we can sense. I know that those of us on the liberal side know what I'm talking about. Fear. Of. The. Other.
 
2013-07-22 01:22:57 AM  

Notabunny: It's interesting that you've become more accepting of opinions from the other end of the spectrum at the same time that people on the other end of the spectrum are increasingly intolerant of you.


for me its not that i'm more accepting of their opinions, as much as i understand WHY they hold those opinions.
 
2013-07-22 01:23:09 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.

Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and cheat. We have a great c ...


So you'd rather they lie and have the government take care of them, rather than buy their own insurance and get charged - under which you claim they are still cheating the system. How do you feel about big corporations that pay zero taxes? Are they cheating too, or just using legal loopholes? Or are you only outraged when the poor, who need the help, do it?

syrynxx: Abacus9: You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

No, I don't.  Cars driven on private property do not require auto insurance.


That's not true, at least here. You can still get in an accident on private property. Do you only ever drive on private property?

ElizaDoolittle: MIAppologia: feckingmorons: If I insult politicians you like will you play music loudly and clean my house?
I'll even buy dinner!

Um, sure.  I must warn you, however, that when I cleaned the bathroom, I dipped his toothbrush in the toilet.  :)

Oh I wish you had weighed in on the recent TFD thread about whether you or a "servant" cleans your toilet.   http://bit.ly/12XtbXa


Peanut butter poop thread!
 
2013-07-22 01:23:14 AM  
You wanna save money, in the budget?

Cut End of Life care out of the Medicaid budget.
 
2013-07-22 01:24:05 AM  
lol - no
and it will never, ever happen

the idea that my world views would change enough to embrace .... Palin? Mcbachmann?
yah

I would literally die first.
 
2013-07-22 01:25:07 AM  

syrynxx: The plan that spineless politician signed into law requires individual fines to be profitable.


I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I think you're confusing the "This is a tax" legal rationale with the idea that the law is  actually a tax, which, even though Justice Roberts went through some twisted legal rationale, it isn't really one.

The ACA is not designed to raise revenue.
 
2013-07-22 01:25:24 AM  

professorkowalski: You wanna save money, in the budget?

Cut End of Life care out of the Medicaid budget.


Death Panels then?
 
2013-07-22 01:25:41 AM  

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: So the tiny percentage of those who cheat--who just happen to most often be from the most impoverished segment of our society--provides you the justification to turn your back on healthcare insurance programs meant to help millions of people in need.

I don't see how masquerading as healthcare a new tax to pay for everyone else's health insurance is the answer.

If we need to cover more people in medicaid then simply raise the medicaid taxes, don't force people who don't want a specific kind of insurance to get a government mandated insurance. I could get a 10K high deductible plan and be very pleased with it because I can pay my medical bills and being a nurse I know how to get the best care at the lowest prices (paying cash at time of service and asking for the cash price).

Yet I can't get that plan without being penalized with a tax because it doesn't fit the government model. That seems unfair.


I wish I could get a HDHP plan now.  just give me catastrophic coverage and I can manage the rest
 
2013-07-22 01:25:55 AM  
namatad

lol - no
and it will never, ever happen

the idea that my world views would change enough to embrace .... Palin? Mcbachmann?
yah

I would literally die first.


You are hereby allowed on my lawn again, even if you want to listen to Train.
 
2013-07-22 01:28:40 AM  

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: So the tiny percentage of those who cheat--who just happen to most often be from the most impoverished segment of our society--provides you the justification to turn your back on healthcare insurance programs meant to help millions of people in need.

I don't see how masquerading as healthcare a new tax to pay for everyone else's health insurance is the answer.

If we need to cover more people in medicaid then simply raise the medicaid taxes, don't force people who don't want a specific kind of insurance to get a government mandated insurance. I could get a 10K high deductible plan and be very pleased with it because I can pay my medical bills and being a nurse I know how to get the best care at the lowest prices (paying cash at time of service and asking for the cash price).

Yet I can't get that plan without being penalized with a tax because it doesn't fit the government model. That seems unfair.


Because in order to accomplish any macro social goal, a plan must have some minimum standards. There isn't a chance in hell of doing that if the standard is "we are refraining from requiring a standard because it might affect the 0.0001% of the population who are like feckingmorons, the guy who wants to pay cash for his hospitalization and negotiate special cash prices with the anesthesiologist and the radiologist and the proctocologist."
 
2013-07-22 01:28:55 AM  

SuperTramp: Look, I don't want this to turn into a kickfeckts, because I know you're a good person, but it's a fear we can sense. I know that those of us on the liberal side know what I'm talking about. Fear. Of. The. Other.


To some extent it is fear, but the larger issue is a distinct lack of empathy for others. If most of the rabid conservatives had experienced the same treatment or seen their own loved ones treated that way, they would not behave the same way. You'll note, for instance, how quite a few of the more rabid anti-gay conservatives tone down their rhetoric once a family member comes out.
 
2013-07-22 01:29:05 AM  
professorkowalski
You wanna save money, in the budget?

Cut End of Life care out of the Medicaid budget.


My father is alive right now because of that. Let's go outside, and talk about cutting it for your mother or father.
 
2013-07-22 01:30:21 AM  
angrymacface kudos
 
2013-07-22 01:30:25 AM  

Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?


Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.


They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.
 
2013-07-22 01:30:30 AM  

log_jammin: Notabunny: It's interesting that you've become more accepting of opinions from the other end of the spectrum at the same time that people on the other end of the spectrum are increasingly intolerant of you.

for me its not that i'm more accepting of their opinions, as much as i understand WHY they hold those opinions.


I find that it's perfectly possible to understand  why people hold opinions, and yet still disapprove entirely of the opinions. For instance, after two years of studying Islamic terrorism as part of my job, I found it extremely easy to understand why a firey young Muslim might take up an AK-47 and go join the Haqqani network in Pakistan and try to go kill some Americans.

I may understand it, but I sure as hell don't  approve of it.
 
2013-07-22 01:30:39 AM  

SuperTramp: My father is alive right now because of that. Let's go outside, and talk about cutting it for your mother or father.


I'm playing.

It's not viable.

It's just what the fiscally conservative could say, and get people to believe.

I'd never want to actually see it happen.
 
2013-07-22 01:31:11 AM  
All that being said: I do think the ACA is going to be terribly implemented and probably will end up causing more harm than good. Do not think that the health care industry won't fight tooth and nail to exploit every loophole they can find or buy so they don't actually have to provide the care that the taxpayer money pays for.
 
2013-07-22 01:32:20 AM  
I'm sure all those Gucci purses were real, and that the patient paid for the car themselves with their scammer income. No way was the car paid for by someone else.
 
2013-07-22 01:33:49 AM  

angrymacface: All that being said: I do think the ACA is going to be terribly implemented and probably will end up causing more harm than good. Do not think that the health care industry won't fight tooth and nail to exploit every loophole they can find or buy so they don't actually have to provide the care that the taxpayer money pays for.


Idk. The hospital I'm working at has to essentially redesign our care to ensure we will be reimbursed under the new law.

Great news for patients, bad news for our CEO's
 
2013-07-22 01:34:02 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Because in order to accomplish any macro social goal, a plan must have some minimum standards. There isn't a chance in hell of doing that if the standard is "we are refraining from requiring a standard because it might affect the 0.0001% of the population who are like feckingmorons, the guy who wants to pay cash for his hospitalization and negotiate special cash prices with the anesthesiologist and the radiologist and the proctocologist."


In Florida you don't have to get the legally mandated insurance if you have $40K in escrow (a CD or something) and name the state as a beneficiary. You can opt out if you wish to take on the risk yourself.

We should be allowed to do that with our own health insurance, we should be allowed to opt out of a government program if we agree to, and are capable of accepting the risk.
 
2013-07-22 01:34:54 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?

Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.


That an intelligent guy like you who appears to have real compassion for others can spout nonsense like this is really sad. I'm starting to think you have multiple personalities.
 
2013-07-22 01:35:26 AM  

Heathen: I wish I could get a HDHP plan now.  just give me catastrophic coverage and I can manage the rest


Send me an email and I'll try to help. I've helped a couple dozen TF'ers find affordable health insurance.
 
2013-07-22 01:35:51 AM  
Bush convinced me to become a libertarian.  Fartbongo reinforced that as having been a good idea.
 
2013-07-22 01:36:19 AM  

Rincewind53: I find that it's perfectly possible to understand  why people hold opinions, and yet still disapprove entirely of the opinions. For instance, after two years of studying Islamic terrorism as part of my job, I found it extremely easy to understand why a firey young Muslim might take up an AK-47 and go join the Haqqani network in Pakistan and try to go kill some Americans.

I may understand it, but I sure as hell don't  approve of it.


exactly.  and why i understand why someone thinks abortion is murder or guns should be banned or etc...

a line about being bitter and clinging to guns and religion comes to mind.
 
2013-07-22 01:36:21 AM  
feckingmorons you can't see the forest for the trees, baby.

one scammer at $21MM is nothing compared to what the BIG BOYS are sucking up EVERY GOT DAMN DAY. We;re being turned into a third world nation in the name of "privatization" and "free market enterprise" You mean to tell me you can't hear the sound of that giant vacuum cleaner?
 
2013-07-22 01:37:34 AM  

SuperTramp: You mean to tell me you can't hear the sound of that giant vacuum cleaner?


He's blind to it, cause he thinks he can buy his way into their little club.
 
2013-07-22 01:38:21 AM  

SuperTramp: You mean to tell me you can't hear the sound of that giant vacuum cleaner?


Those who benefit from it, aren't going to complain about it...
 
2013-07-22 01:39:15 AM  

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: Because in order to accomplish any macro social goal, a plan must have some minimum standards. There isn't a chance in hell of doing that if the standard is "we are refraining from requiring a standard because it might affect the 0.0001% of the population who are like feckingmorons, the guy who wants to pay cash for his hospitalization and negotiate special cash prices with the anesthesiologist and the radiologist and the proctocologist."

In Florida you don't have to get the legally mandated insurance if you have $40K in escrow (a CD or something) and name the state as a beneficiary. You can opt out if you wish to take on the risk yourself.

We should be allowed to do that with our own health insurance, we should be allowed to opt out of a government program if we agree to, and are capable of accepting the risk.


Yeah, so who pays when your measly $40k is chewed up overnight by doctors and hospitals and pharma companies and malpractice insurers after a catastrophic event or illness? The taxpayers do.
 
2013-07-22 01:39:19 AM  
Smeggy Smurf
Bush convinced me to become a libertarian. Fartbongo reinforced that as having been a good idea.

Clearsil and move out of your mom's basement. Sunlight is a great disinfectant.
 
2013-07-22 01:40:11 AM  
Super tramp I think I love you.
 
2013-07-22 01:42:49 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons you can't see the forest for the trees, baby.

one scammer at $21MM is nothing compared to what the BIG BOYS are sucking up EVERY GOT DAMN DAY. We;re being turned into a third world nation in the name of "privatization" and "free market enterprise" You mean to tell me you can't hear the sound of that giant vacuum cleaner?


Some people would rather harp on the 10 little people scamming their way to $25k over a period of years than turn the spotlight on government contractors who piss away that much every lunch hour buying off our elected representatives.
 
2013-07-22 01:42:54 AM  

SuperTramp: Smeggy Smurf
Bush convinced me to become a libertarian. Fartbongo reinforced that as having been a good idea.

Clearsil and move out of your mom's basement. Sunlight is a great disinfectant.


Thus proving once again that rapeublicans and emocrats are unfit for classification as intelligent life
 
2013-07-22 01:43:22 AM  
 
2013-07-22 01:43:40 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?

Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.

That an intelligent guy like you who appears to have real compassion for others can spout nonsense like this is really sad. I'm starting to think you have multiple personalities.


What is sad about not wanting to see tax money wasted?

What is sad about the reality that we can't make doctors and nurses and hospitals work for free? They are entitled to wages for their work. We have the best medical care, research, and advancement in the world. If we start (or more correctly continue) to pay physicians $17.86 for a Medicaid office visit, and then impose new requirements on the for electronic medical records, mandatory screenings, review of their decision making by algorithm which requires them to spend uncompensated time that could be used on patient care justifying why they ordered a CT rather than a plain film, we will lose all physicians who will participate in these programs.

The UK has abysmal NHS, and most people who can afford it carry supplemental insurance - BUPA for instance. Do we really want to go there?
 
2013-07-22 01:43:48 AM  

feckingmorons: Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.


I'm sorry, but your views on the issue are  completely distorted and counter-factual. Here are some statistics. In 2012,  80 million Americans didn't go to the doctor or access needed medical care because of cost. Currently,  40 million Americans "couldn't afford one or more of these services: medical care, prescription medicines, mental health care, dental care, or eyeglasses." Source.

Your viewpoint is distorted by this sort of anecdotal weirdness. It's like, there are 100 people in a room, and you see one of them steal something, and you say "My god, that room is filled with thieves!"  High estimates put Medicare fraud at roughly 8%. But bear in mind that this doesn't mean that eight percent of Medicare  beneficiaries are fraudulent, it means that eight percent of  payments are improper. As Politifact points out, this can be caused by anyone, the doctor, the patient, a third party: "If a doctor orders too many tests, or provides a service but submits the wrong payment code, those come under the umbrella of improper payments." The largest Medicare Fraud in history was done by Florida Governor Rick Scott, for God's sake. Large-scale Medicare fraud is done by corporations, most of the time, like this dialysis center that was just caught overbilling hundreds of millions of dollars.

You also completely missed my point about more serious medical problems not being covered by free medical care. If you're on chemotherapy and all you have is Medicare, you really think you're getting the best treatment? Well, after the recent government sequester, Cancer clinics are turning away thousands of Medicare patients. Where should those patients go?
 
2013-07-22 01:44:49 AM  

feckingmorons: You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted


Taxes are a necessary evil. But if I'm going to pay them, I want the biggest bang for my buck. How about if instead of just handing out welfare, we add a mandatory education/job training component so the people that need it can get to a point that they don't need it any more? Even if you don't do shiat but stack books at the library or pick up sticks in the park, you can use that to demonstrate that you can be at a designated place at a designated time. Wouldn't that be better for everyone involved?
 
2013-07-22 01:45:25 AM  
Smeggy Smurf

Thus proving once again that rapeublicans and emocrats are unfit for classification as intelligent life

It's not easy being blue with a typing problem.
 
2013-07-22 01:46:45 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons you can't see the forest for the trees, baby.

one scammer at $21MM is nothing compared to what the BIG BOYS are sucking up EVERY GOT DAMN DAY. We;re being turned into a third world nation in the name of "privatization" and "free market enterprise" You mean to tell me you can't hear the sound of that giant vacuum cleaner?


But government takeover of medical care is not the answer. We need to return to indemnity plans (like car insurance - it doesn't pay for oil changes) for medical care. The HMO concept failed.

People who can't afford to get insurance can get Medicaid or if they don't qualify for that other state or local programs funded by our taxes. We don't need the overhead and bureaucracy that the current iteration of PPACA (if it is ever actually implemented) will bring.

That and I don't really trust the federal government with my information anymore. I want to limit what they know and they don't need to know when my last tetanus shot was (17JUL2013).
 
2013-07-22 01:47:15 AM  

rappy: Idk. The hospital I'm working at has to essentially redesign our care to ensure we will be reimbursed under the new law.

Great news for patients, bad news for our CEO's


The CEOs  will get their money, one way or another.
 
2013-07-22 01:47:50 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?

Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.


Your position on this, basically, is that no one should be allowed to benefit because a few people scam the system. It's okay with you to let poor children get sick and die as long as a few people don't take advantage of something they don't deserve, right?
 
2013-07-22 01:47:58 AM  

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?

Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.

That an intelligent guy like you who appears to have real compassion for others can spout nonsense like this is really sad. I'm starting to think you have multiple personalities.

What is sad about not wanting to see tax money wasted?

What is sad about the reality that we can't make doctors and nurses and hospitals work for free? They are entitled to wages for their work. We have the best medical care, research, and advancement in the world. If we start (or more correctly continue) to pay physicians $17.86 for a Medicaid office visit, and then impose new requirements on the for electronic medical records, mandatory screenings, review of their decision making by algorithm which requires them to spend uncompensated time that could be used on patient care justifying why they ordered a CT rather than a plain film, we will lose all physicians who will participate in these programs.

The UK has abysmal NHS, and most people who can afford it carry supplemental insurance - BUPA for instance. Do we really want to go there?


What is sad is you defaulting to Rush Limbaugh assholisms like all those poor people showing up at the ER in their Mercedes and designer clothes and Gucci bags looking to steal health care. What is sad is your philosophy that people are entitled to health care only if they can afford it. It stands in sharp contrast to the charity I've seen you show to people in need.
 
2013-07-22 01:47:59 AM  

Smeggy Smurf: Thus proving once again that rapeublicans and emocrats are unfit for classification as intelligent life


You're almost as bad as fecking.

That's not easy to pull off.
 
2013-07-22 01:49:35 AM  

angrymacface: rappy: Idk. The hospital I'm working at has to essentially redesign our care to ensure we will be reimbursed under the new law.

Great news for patients, bad news for our CEO's

The CEOs  will get their money, one way or another.


The Canadian taxpayer has probably paid mid six figures in the past year to keep me alive. You should thank them. I do every day.
 
2013-07-22 01:54:12 AM  

Rincewind53: Here are some statistics. In 2012,  80 million Americans didn't go to the doctor or access needed medical care because of cost.


How do they know what it costs? Call up a doctor's office and ask what you will have to pay for an exam and two standard blood tests. They can't tell you because of the nonsense that insurance/government programs/managed care is these days.

If patients knew that they had to spend $40 for a comprehensive (30 minute) exam and $6 for a CBC and $25 for a SMA-23 they could budget for those things. If the doctor knew he could count on getting paid those amounts they could actully charge those.

Now the doctor bills $167 and gets paid $19.23 for the visit. The lab gets $3.60 for the CBC and $14.44 for the SMA23 (those are real numbers for a Medicare patient) The patient is then billed about $17 dollars more for their 'co-payment' (a bullshiat term).

If I walk into Sears I pay the same price for a wrench as you and the guy down the street and the Pope if he were to stop in. The price fixing (or negotiated pricing) of managed care is bullshiat. It should be illegal.

Price things the same for everyone and it will be more affordable for everyone. Those who can't work because of disability, infirmity, or age we can cover with our social programs and we can better judge the costs and not force doctors, hospitals and drug companies to sell to government plans at below market rates.

Doctors will stop accepting Medicaid because it simply isn't enough money for the work they have to do.

Just because you get some insurance through a government sponsored exchange doesn't mean any doctor will take patients with that insurance.
 
2013-07-22 01:54:19 AM  
I did go through a libertarian phase in high school.

/I got better.
 
2013-07-22 01:54:44 AM  
feckingmorons

But government takeover of medical care is not the answer. We need to return to indemnity plans (like car insurance - it doesn't pay for oil changes) for medical care.
"oil change"

I remember the days when the birth control pill wasn't covered by insurance.

but you damn well know the holy trinity of viagra/cialis/levitra has ALWAYS been covered.
 
2013-07-22 01:56:53 AM  

EatenTheSun: feckingmorons: You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted

Taxes are a necessary evil. But if I'm going to pay them, I want the biggest bang for my buck. How about if instead of just handing out welfare, we add a mandatory education/job training component so the people that need it can get to a point that they don't need it any more? Even if you don't do shiat but stack books at the library or pick up sticks in the park, you can use that to demonstrate that you can be at a designated place at a designated time. Wouldn't that be better for everyone involved?


Yes, I think job training would be great. I'm happy to have taxes pay for that. I'd like to see everyone working, and many productive businesses. Work is good, and everyone that is able to work should be afforded that opportunity. I've employed a number of people and I like hiring people, you see them smile when you ask them when they can start! It is good for them and good for me too. Work is mutually beneficial for the employee, the employer, and society.
 
2013-07-22 01:57:03 AM  

Rincewind53: I'm sorry, but your views on the issue are  completely distorted and counter-factual. Here are some statistics. In 2012,  80 million Americans didn't go to the doctor or access needed medical care because of cost. Currently,  40 million Americans "couldn't afford one or more of these services: medical care, prescription medicines, mental health care, dental care, or eyeglasses." Source.


The old people around here cross the border to Tijuana to get medications and medical care.

/and it's still cheaper than here, even if they have to pay cash.
 
2013-07-22 01:57:29 AM  

angrymacface: rappy: Idk. The hospital I'm working at has to essentially redesign our care to ensure we will be reimbursed under the new law.

Great news for patients, bad news for our CEO's

The CEOs  will get their money, one way or another.


If the CEOs try to f*ck around with this, the hospital will face being shut down.

That will not happen. Have a little faith.
 
2013-07-22 01:57:57 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons

But government takeover of medical care is not the answer. We need to return to indemnity plans (like car insurance - it doesn't pay for oil changes) for medical care.
"oil change"

I remember the days when the birth control pill wasn't covered by insurance.

but you damn well know the holy trinity of viagra/cialis/levitra has ALWAYS been covered.


Those shouldn't be covered. Dick drugs have no other medical purpose, they should be a cash only proposition. Birth control pills do have other medical uses.

I remember when the birth control pill was four bucks a month.
 
2013-07-22 01:59:50 AM  

rappy: If the CEOs try to f*ck around with this, the hospital will face being shut down.

That will not happen. Have a little faith.


And if it is shut down, they'll find another to suck money from.
 
2013-07-22 01:59:53 AM  

Rincewind53: You also completely missed my point about more serious medical problems not being covered by free medical care. If you're on chemotherapy and all you have is Medicare, you really think you're getting the best treatment? Well, after the recent government sequester, Cancer clinics are turning away thousands of Medicare patients. Where should those patients go?


That's sort of what he's doing: ignoring the points he doesn't want to answer.

feckingmorons: But government takeover of medical care is not the answer.


Then it's a good thing that's not what's happened.

feckingmorons: That and I don't really trust the federal government with my information anymore. I want to limit what they know and they don't need to know when my last tetanus shot was (17JUL2013).


You don't want the government to know, and yet you post it on Fark. It really isn't about privacy is it, just your irrational fear of something called "big government?" Made up of officials that you probably helped to elect.
 
2013-07-22 02:00:48 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: What is sad is you defaulting to Rush Limbaugh assholisms like all those poor people showing up at the ER in their Mercedes and designer clothes and Gucci bags looking to steal health care


I worked in a big city ER (several cities I even worked at St. Johns in St. Louis for 13 weeks on a contract) and I've seen it myself. Sure it is not everyone, but one out of 100 unfunded patients quite easily.

I don't know a real Gucci bag from a fake one, but still they had them.

I'm not defaulting to anyone else's opinion and I don't particularly like being called an asshole.
 
2013-07-22 02:01:12 AM  
feckingmorons Work is mutually beneficial for the employee, the employer, and society.

I'm sure the Messrs Koch say that, too
 
2013-07-22 02:01:47 AM  

rappy: If the CEOs try to f*ck around with this, the hospital will face being shut down.

That will not happen. Have a little faith.


Yep.
 
2013-07-22 02:03:06 AM  

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: What is sad is you defaulting to Rush Limbaugh assholisms like all those poor people showing up at the ER in their Mercedes and designer clothes and Gucci bags looking to steal health care

I worked in a big city ER (several cities I even worked at St. Johns in St. Louis for 13 weeks on a contract) and I've seen it myself. Sure it is not everyone, but one out of 100 unfunded patients quite easily.

I don't know a real Gucci bag from a fake one, but still they had them.

I'm not defaulting to anyone else's opinion and I don't particularly like being called an asshole.


I didn't call you an asshole. I said your bad personalities are spouting Rush Limbaugh assholisms that would dismay your kind and charitable personalities.
 
2013-07-22 02:03:08 AM  

feckingmorons: but you damn well know the holy trinity of viagra/cialis/levitra has ALWAYS been covered.

Those shouldn't be covered. Dick drugs have no other medical purpose, they should be a cash only proposition. Birth control pills do have other medical uses.


So does Viagra.
 
2013-07-22 02:03:45 AM  
In high school and the first couple years of college I considered myself a republican, but that was mostly due to lack of research.  I saw republicans as the party of rich people, and I wanted to be rich, and I thought 'yeah, dang all those parasites just cashing all of those welfare checks and never working a day in their lives'.  I was never socially conservative, and when I first registered to vote, I registered as a libertarian, but in my defense, my mental image of libertarians were the guys that smoked weed in front of the coffee place and talked about philosophy and plays well past midnight.

Then I actually bothered looking up what the parties stood for, and getting closer to entering the real world I understood that welfare queens were a particularly cruel myth, and that the Democratic party was the one that actually stood up for the rights of the middle class and the average worker.  I changed my voter registration to Democrat and haven't looked back.  The continual march of the right into religious fundamentalism has made that decision look smarter every day since.

I've always been socially liberal - I've always felt that gay people should have every right afforded to heterosexual people, including marriage, I've always been pro-immigration, I've always been pro-science and pro-stem cell research, and I've been pro-choice since I bothered to look up the actual time-line of a pregnancy and the length of time it takes for what is essentially a medical condition to turn into a child.

I suppose I still align myself with a couple right-wing talking points - I fully support Israel, their rights to the land they won in the Six Day War, and supported the war on terrorism (though I'll admit we could have done it in a much better fashion and without losing as many American lives and giving as much money as we have to defense contractors).

I also have beliefs that don't align with any of the major parties - I believe that we need to seriously re-evaluate our copyright laws and patent system, as they're stifling innovation, neutering the public domain, and inadvertently allowing orphan works to disappear forever due to issues with contacting rights holders, I believe that our current surveillance state has gone way too far and that the erosion of the 4th amendment deserves a lot more attention than the supposed attacks on the 2nd, and that we need policymakers with a solid understanding of technology in office so that initiatives like Net Neutrality get the attention they deserve.
 
2013-07-22 02:04:51 AM  

themindiswatching: rappy: If the CEOs try to f*ck around with this, the hospital will face being shut down.

That will not happen. Have a little faith.

Yep.


That is not due to greedy CEO's from what I gathered in that article so... that is irrelevant to our conversation. Thanks for playing !
 
2013-07-22 02:05:06 AM  

Abacus9: That's sort of what he's doing: ignoring the points he doesn't want to answer.


This isn't about me covering each point. The question is have you shifted your political views.

Yet every time I've posted mine I've been attacked, and just like your attacking me for not making a counterpoint to every point someone else makes.

You know what, fark you people. I don't have to defend myself and I sure as hell don't have to help anyone of Total Fark. I've been nice, I've paid people's bills, I've helped explain landlord/tenant problems, I've paid people's rent. I've paid for veterinary medicines.

fark all of you who don't respect my opinions, you don't have to agree, but you could be civil.
 
2013-07-22 02:05:27 AM  

feckingmorons: How do they know what it costs? Call up a doctor's office and ask what you will have to pay for an exam and two standard blood tests. They can't tell you because of the nonsense that insurance/government programs/managed care is these days.

If patients knew that they had to spend $40 for a comprehensive (30 minute) exam and $6 for a CBC and $25 for a SMA-23 they could budget for those things. If the doctor knew he could count on getting paid those amounts they could actully charge those.

Now the doctor bills $167 and gets paid $19.23 for the visit. The lab gets $3.60 for the CBC and $14.44 for the SMA23 (those are real numbers for a Medicare patient) The patient is then billed about $17 dollars more for their 'co-payment' (a bullshiat term).

If I walk into Sears I pay the same price for a wrench as you and the guy down the street and the Pope if he were to stop in. The price fixing (or negotiated pricing) of managed care is bullshiat. It should be illegal.

Price things the same for everyone and it will be more affordable for everyone. Those who can't work because of disability, infirmity, or age we can cover with our social programs and we can better judge the costs and not force doctors, hospitals and drug companies to sell to government plans at below market rates.

Doctors will stop accepting Medicaid because it simply isn't enough money for the work they have to do.

Just because you get some insurance through a government sponsored exchange doesn't mean any doctor will take patients with that insurance.


Yes. The current system is arcane and leads to overbilling.  And therefore poor people should not be allowed to have access to it?

But fine, if you're in an anecdote-y mood: My girlfriend recently slipped on some wet tile in her house and fell over backwards, cracking her head on the floor. She was in pretty bad pain, and was worried that she had a concussion. Because she has health insurance, and because she has a job that allows flexibility, she was able to go to the doctor the next morning and have her head checked out. Thankfully, she did not have a concussion.

But if she had been poor, and didn't have health insurance, and worked at a job that didn't have flexible sick time,  she wouldn't have been able to do that. So if she had a concussion, it might have gone completely untreated, simply because of costs.That's a really basic, small example of the kind of things that happen when you live in poverty.

You also like numbers, so here are some. The federal poverty line in America, for a family of four, is $23,283 income a year. For a  family of four, saying "Well, it'll just be $80 to get a checkup," isn't exactly saying "Wow, it'll be a cakewalk!" And god forbid Mama gets pregnant again, or Timmy breaks his leg, or Dad injures himself on the job. As  kiwimoogle just found out, the cost of having a baby is  thousands of dollars.  Seventy-Five Percent of Americans don't have enough money in savings to pay for six months of expenses if they lost their income stream. That $40 that you dismissed out of hand is a  lot of money to millions of people in this country.

And finally, you completely ignore my point about medicare fraud, and for the second time completely ignore my point about complicated medicale care like chemotherapy, dialysis, or treatment for any kind of chronic disease.
 
2013-07-22 02:06:52 AM  
feckingmorons
Those shouldn't be covered. Dick drugs have no other medical purpose, they should be a cash only proposition. Birth control pills do have other medical uses.

Abacus9: So does Viagra.

Limpdickedness Maybe we should the Democrats in Congress a trainload.
 
2013-07-22 02:08:18 AM  
HEY DEMOCRATS!!!

GET IT UP
 
2013-07-22 02:08:24 AM  

Rincewind53: As  kiwimoogle just found out, the cost of having a baby is  thousands of dollars.  Seventy-Five Percent of Americans don't have enough money in savings to pay for six months of expenses if they lost their income stream. That $40 that you dismissed out of hand is a  lot of money to millions of people in this country.


What did you send her? I got the breast pump and two cartons of diapers?
 
2013-07-22 02:09:07 AM  
Fecking you're the type that helps people just so you can flaunt it. Try doing it sometime without rubbing someone's nose in it.

Helping others to receive a pat on the back is pathetic.
 
2013-07-22 02:09:29 AM  

feckingmorons: In case I wasn't clear:

[i1.sndcdn.com image 300x300]


Look,  fecking, I think you're a really nice guy, I really do. You've consistently shown that you have a big heart, and that you're willing to help people in need.

I think that's why you're catching an air of frustration from a lot of people here. You're clearly a smart guy, and yet it appears to me as if you have these huge blind spots. It's like there's an elephant right in front of you, and we're pointing to it, and you're saying "What elephant? I see a mouse!"

Why do you think I'm citing sources to you? It's not because I'm trying to make you feel bad, it's because I'm hoping to erase that blind spot.
 
2013-07-22 02:10:06 AM  

Rincewind53: dialysis


There is a program specifically for End Stage Renal Disease so what are you talking about dialysis.

Don't just make shiat up.
 
2013-07-22 02:10:56 AM  
rappy
Fecking you're the type that helps people just so you can flaunt it. Try doing it sometime without rubbing someone's nose in it.

Helping others to receive a pat on the back is pathetic.


Man, I'm so glad I don't need to steal a taco.
 
2013-07-22 02:11:13 AM  

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: In case I wasn't clear:

[i1.sndcdn.com image 300x300]

Look,  fecking, I think you're a really nice guy, I really do. You've consistently shown that you have a big heart, and that you're willing to help people in need.

I think that's why you're catching an air of frustration from a lot of people here. You're clearly a smart guy, and yet it appears to me as if you have these huge blind spots. It's like there's an elephant right in front of you, and we're pointing to it, and you're saying "What elephant? I see a mouse!"

Why do you think I'm citing sources to you? It's not because I'm trying to make you feel bad, it's because I'm hoping to erase that blind spot.


Your posting stuff from the Huffington Post! Pravda is more believable.
 
2013-07-22 02:11:13 AM  
I don't think so. I'll listen, I like hearing the other side(s), it is educational at the very least. I used to be very republican, neocon even maybe. But it was life experiences, not smarmy bleeding hearts that dragged me away from that. I got tired of the wars, and the republican's bigger government solution to big government. I realized the drug war was a sham when I fell into an addiction. I realized we simply can't keep illegal immigrants out and I was tired of hearing about desiccated bodies in the desert. And I got really tired of this evangelical aspect of the party that was pulling the craziest, un-Christlike stings.

I'm still pretty right wing in my personal beliefs but I respect individual liberties (including abortion!) more than I respect either party. So I vote all over the place and criticize everyone, like a jerk.
 
2013-07-22 02:11:56 AM  

syrynxx: Yeah, when Bush the Younger got the power to arrest and execute without trial any American citizen, just by naming them a terrorist.  F*ck you Obama for not having the balls to grant habeus corpus to everyone in Guantanamo Bay.  Who am I going to vote for now?  It's obvious the political parties are both corrupt.


Bingo! Just like pro wrestling. People have to smarten up and toss both R & D out of power.
 
2013-07-22 02:12:11 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: dialysis

There is a program specifically for End Stage Renal Disease so what are you talking about dialysis.

Don't just make shiat up.


And the sequester cuts to Medicare are hitting right now, and three weeks ago Medicare proposed drastically slashing those funds.
 
2013-07-22 02:12:48 AM  

rappy: Fecking you're the type that helps people just so you can flaunt it. Try doing it sometime without rubbing someone's nose in it.

Helping others to receive a pat on the back is pathetic.


You're truly the most annoying person on here. I like MarySue better. I've told you that several times.

You could never possibly understand why I do the things I do.
 
2013-07-22 02:13:50 AM  
I have this mental image of Socially Concerned Fecking waking up and looking in the mirror at Charitable Fecking and both of them asking "who the hell let Tea Party Fecking drive the bus last night?"
 
2013-07-22 02:14:00 AM  

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Rincewind53: dialysis

There is a program specifically for End Stage Renal Disease so what are you talking about dialysis.

Don't just make shiat up.

And the sequester cuts to Medicare are hitting right now, and three weeks ago Medicare proposed drastically slashing those funds.


So tell Obama not to spend $100MM flying to Africa. We can economize, but the hue and cry when we try to cut a government job is astounding.
 
2013-07-22 02:14:59 AM  
"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. " -- Matthew 6:2
 
2013-07-22 02:15:47 AM  
Poor guy. Don't like it much when you're called out, do you?
 
2013-07-22 02:16:47 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: In high school and the first couple years of college I considered myself a republican, but that was mostly due to lack of research.  I saw republicans as the party of rich people, and I wanted to be rich, and I thought 'yeah, dang all those parasites just cashing all of those welfare checks and never working a day in their lives'.  I was never socially conservative, and when I first registered to vote, I registered as a libertarian, but in my defense, my mental image of libertarians were the guys that smoked weed in front of the coffee place and talked about philosophy and plays well past midnight.

Then I actually bothered looking up what the parties stood for, and getting closer to entering the real world I understood that welfare queens were a particularly cruel myth, and that the Democratic party was the one that actually stood up for the rights of the middle class and the average worker.  I changed my voter registration to Democrat and haven't looked back.  The continual march of the right into religious fundamentalism has made that decision look smarter every day since.

I've always been socially liberal - I've always felt that gay people should have every right afforded to heterosexual people, including marriage, I've always been pro-immigration, I've always been pro-science and pro-stem cell research, and I've been pro-choice since I bothered to look up the actual time-line of a pregnancy and the length of time it takes for what is essentially a medical condition to turn into a child.

I suppose I still align myself with a couple right-wing talking points - I fully support Israel, their rights to the land they won in the Six Day War, and supported the war on terrorism (though I'll admit we could have done it in a much better fashion and without losing as many American lives and giving as much money as we have to defense contractors).

I also have beliefs that don't align with any of the major parties - I believe that we need to seriously re-evaluate our copy ...


I like the way you think...except I am and will remain Republican. I disagree with your position of Dems standing up for middle class. Democrats are as beholden to big business as Republican. The difference is Republicans are open about it.

/still...your newsletter...etc.
 
2013-07-22 02:17:14 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: I have this mental image of Socially Concerned Fecking waking up and looking in the mirror at Charitable Fecking and both of them asking "who the hell let Tea Party Fecking drive the bus last night?"


My beliefs and opinions have been consistent for decades. I've said them before and I'm just tired of being vilified because of them, as if somehow I'm keeping old people in Peoria from getting their pills.

Nobody here knows me, yet there are plenty of people in this thread who are happy to tell me what an asshole I am because I'm conservative. This country had degraded into a culture that devalues life and the individual. We can't even keep Chicago murder free for a day because the young adults of today place such a low value on life, yet I'm somehow the problem.

You people sure have some farked up priorities.
 
2013-07-22 02:17:50 AM  

angrymacface: "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. " -- Matthew 6:2


Stick it up your ass.

-Feckingmorons 7/22/2013
 
2013-07-22 02:18:33 AM  

rappy: Poor guy. Don't like it much when you're called out, do you?


By you, no I don't because you are a vile child.
 
2013-07-22 02:18:34 AM  

feckingmorons: Your posting stuff from the Huffington Post! Pravda is more believable.


Dude. I posted multiple articles from CNN, one from ABC, one directly to Politifact, and one to HuffPo. The HuffPo article was simply reporting the results of a survey done by a third party. If you'd like, here is the survey itself, including methodology. The study was reported on dozens of other news sources, including CNN, MSNBC, USA Today, and many others. Hell, this isn't exactly groundbreaking journalism. Even Glenn Beck's The Blaze has reported on how Americans have very little savings.

Don't shoot the messenger without listening to what he has to say.
 
2013-07-22 02:18:59 AM  
So this thread is why I don't really talk politics with anyone in real life any more. :/
 
2013-07-22 02:19:49 AM  

feckingmorons: Abacus9: That's sort of what he's doing: ignoring the points he doesn't want to answer.

This isn't about me covering each point. The question is have you shifted your political views.

Yet every time I've posted mine I've been attacked, and just like your attacking me for not making a counterpoint to every point someone else makes.

You know what, fark you people. I don't have to defend myself and I sure as hell don't have to help anyone of Total Fark. I've been nice, I've paid people's bills, I've helped explain landlord/tenant problems, I've paid people's rent. I've paid for veterinary medicines.

fark all of you who don't respect my opinions, you don't have to agree, but you could be civil.


I haven't attacked you personally, and neither have most of the others, we're attacking your view point. Trying to make you see the disconnect. Nothing against you personally, you seem like a good person from what others have said.
 
2013-07-22 02:20:10 AM  
The answer to the health care dilemma is pretty simple:

National single payer system - Medicare for everyone

Premiums paid out of taxes at a progressive rate like income taxes (which I'd argue should be higher at the upper income levels as well)

A panel of doctors and experts sets the reimbursement costs at a fair level that lets medical facilities keep the doors open but still minimize costs, adjustments are made every couple years, maybe with a codified COLA adjustment in-between

All medical facilities are required by law to accept the government insurance

All doctors and medical facilities are required by law to perform any treatment to preserve life and quality of life for any patient who comes through the doors.  Appropriate exceptions can be made for the elderly for whom extreme measures would just slightly postpone death by natural causes.

Birth control, vasectomies, and other treatments that serve to save money in the long run would be covered.

Reconstructive plastic surgery (after burns, traumatic injuries, or to address defects such as hare lips) would be covered.

Vanity treatments like breast implants, calf implants, penis enlargements, etc, would have to come out of the patient's pocket
 
2013-07-22 02:20:53 AM  

feckingmorons: rappy: Fecking you're the type that helps people just so you can flaunt it. Try doing it sometime without rubbing someone's nose in it.

Helping others to receive a pat on the back is pathetic.

You're truly the most annoying person on here. I like MarySue better. I've told you that several times.

You could never possibly understand why I do the things I do.


Oh, I really shouldn't. Really.

Oh to hell with it
 
2013-07-22 02:21:23 AM  

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Your posting stuff from the Huffington Post! Pravda is more believable.

Dude. I posted multiple articles from CNN, one from ABC, one directly to Politifact, and one to HuffPo. The HuffPo article was simply reporting the results of a survey done by a third party. If you'd like, here is the survey itself, including methodology. The study was reported on dozens of other news sources, including CNN, MSNBC, USA Today, and many others. Hell, this isn't exactly groundbreaking journalism. Even Glenn Beck's The Blaze has reported on how Americans have very little savings.

Don't shoot the messenger without listening to what he has to say.


Well if we had a functioning economy and there were jobs people could have more savings. PPACA has screwed that possibility in the near future. Even the public library where I worked is no longer hiring anyone at more than 24 hours a week because they would have to insure them.

Kids can't get jobs because adults have to work in McDonalds, and Wendy's and Taco Bell to get enough money to support their families because of the restrictions on hours because of PPACA.
 
2013-07-22 02:22:25 AM  

themindiswatching: So this thread is why I don't really talk politics with anyone in real life any more. :/


I really should know better. One post before it went green and I should have stopped. This will easily get to 1000 as every liter who can bang out a partly coherent sentence calls me an asshole or a fascist or a dick or something.
 
2013-07-22 02:22:43 AM  
My opinion on the death penalty has changed over time. Less about other folks' arguments, and more about understanding the issue better. I still think that removing folks from the gene pool is not a terrible thing. It's not perhaps forgiving, but I am not a really good Buddhist in that sense. Maybe I spent too much time on the floor when I was bouncing, maybe my father being a soldier, and coming from a long line of soldiers, I have perhaps a more fluid sense of justice. What I did come to realize is that given the faults within our criminal justice system, there is too much room for error, and given the sentencing trends that tend to be more harsh on some folks of economic background, and ethnicity, we have issues that are attached to how the death penalty is carried out in this country. That application has too much room for error, and margin is too great for me to be able to support the death penalty, because while I full well understand the desire for retribution and justice being served, it's not justice if it's applied in a fashion that is patently unfair.

I sometimes get complaints from folks that I don't fit the typical "Conservative" mode, in that I don't hold to the the current party rhetoric. I like to think that I come from a model of Conservatism that is perhaps not in vogue, but has deeper underpinnings than the current and somewhat plastic platform that uses some convoluted reasoning to undermine the past trends. Be that on matters of economics--yes, indeed, Voodoo Economics is still not my favorite thing, and if we want to get our budgets in line, we have to do more than spend, and tax, we also have to spend wisely. That means investing a bit, for future profit. In education, in wise use of regulation, in wise use of taxation. That is less a "liberal" or "conservative" estimation, than taking a look at the structures that are in place, our current needs, and projecting for future needs as well.
In part, I hold to a Conservative model that is perhaps "outdated" by some in the party, who feel that to preserve "Conservatism" we have to do the opposite of what "Liberals" want. And that sort of reactionism is NOT a foundation for any sane policy.

Conservatism used to mean considered and careful policy. To be against simple reactionary hysteria that led to over-reaction, and crafting policy based on fear and populism. It still does to some, but they are getting fewer and fewer within the GOP. That is why I registered Independent, because the GOP no longer stands for careful and considered policy, but rather has been taken over, and has been in the hands of folks in the leadership who are very much radicals, and radicals to the right, which leads to just as many dark places as radical to the left. Radicalism itself should be anathema to sane Conservative thought. And at this point, it's not. Rather, the radicals have redefined what "Conservatism" means in the public mind, and that shift towards a radicalized vision that rejects freedom of speech, rejects privacy, rejects freedom of religion--save when it is involved with Christianity, and only the "right" kinds of Christians at that--and really dislikes the whole basis of our law, if it contravenes something that a donor or someone in office REALLY wants NOW. Guns, are apparently OK, and everyone should have them, with the exception of felons of the wrong color or economic background, which is an odd way to pick your battles.

It is less about me shifting or changing, than watching the party radicalize, and then deny that it continues to back policy so long as it has the right appellation behind the name. That sort of turn towards a philosophy that embraces a half assed understanding of "subjective reality" is a hallmark of the NeoCons, and embraced by the Religious Right, who are leading the party into some very dark territory, especially when it is coupled with an increasing reactionary bend, to oppose something simply on the fact that it is brought up by the "wrong" people, even if it's an idea that you embraced only moments before, when it was brought up the "right" people.

THAT isn't so much "Conservative" or "Liberal" as asinine and reactionary, and it is likewise, bone stoopid. I am not really a fan, so if that makes me suddenly a Pinko in some folks' minds, then so be it. Your opinion is noted, and I will take it for all the value that it deserves: which is to say, not very damn much. I instead look to a teacher and a figure that I hold in more esteem, for the teaching of a more critical approach. And right now, Conservatives might do well to use that critical approach in crafting policy, as opposed to simply throwing hissy fits because someone else had an idea that might challenge what you want to do right now, as opposed to its context in actual policy and Constitutionality...

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
--Siddhartha Gutama
 
2013-07-22 02:22:46 AM  

feckingmorons: So tell Obama not to spend $100MM flying to Africa. We can economize, but the hue and cry when we try to cut a government job is astounding.


You realize the two are entirely unrelated, yes? If Obama were to stop flying right now and not leave the White House for the rest of his term, Medicare wouldn't get a  single penny more as a result.

My favorite example of sequester cut madness is to the Federal Public Defender. In a fit of genius, they're getting their budgets slashed, because the government is demanding across the board cuts on every single government program. So dozens of public defenders are going to get fired. But because legal representation is mandated by the Constitution, the government will  still be paying for it. Except now they're going to pay CJA Panel Attorneys at a higher rate than the federal public defenders, and the net result will be that the government will actually cost itself  more money by cutting the FPD budget. It's loony. And of course, the U.S. Attorneys are losing a dime of funding, and their hiring has continued apace. Fairness in the system!

/not bitter at all.
 
2013-07-22 02:23:03 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons: rappy: Fecking you're the type that helps people just so you can flaunt it. Try doing it sometime without rubbing someone's nose in it.

Helping others to receive a pat on the back is pathetic.

You're truly the most annoying person on here. I like MarySue better. I've told you that several times.

You could never possibly understand why I do the things I do.

Oh, I really shouldn't. Really.

Oh to hell with it


I should have anticipated that.
 
2013-07-22 02:23:12 AM  

feckingmorons: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: I have this mental image of Socially Concerned Fecking waking up and looking in the mirror at Charitable Fecking and both of them asking "who the hell let Tea Party Fecking drive the bus last night?"

My beliefs and opinions have been consistent for decades. I've said them before and I'm just tired of being vilified because of them, as if somehow I'm keeping old people in Peoria from getting their pills.

Nobody here knows me, yet there are plenty of people in this thread who are happy to tell me what an asshole I am because I'm conservative. This country had degraded into a culture that devalues life and the individual. We can't even keep Chicago murder free for a day because the young adults of today place such a low value on life, yet I'm somehow the problem.

You people sure have some farked up priorities.


Well, I was going to point out again that I wasn't calling you an asshole and that I've tried to balance my comments with acknowledgment of your kindness and generosity to others . . . but then you just made me not want to care again. Whatever.
 
2013-07-22 02:23:31 AM  
themindiswatching
So this thread is why I don't really talk politics with anyone in real life any more. :/

But if you never do that IRL, it becomes stifling, like a room without air. Or a bladder at a concert with 20 people in line in front of you.
 
2013-07-22 02:23:54 AM  

feckingmorons: Well if we had a functioning economy and there were jobs people could have more savings. PPACA has screwed that possibility in the near future. Even the public library where I worked is no longer hiring anyone at more than 24 hours a week because they would have to insure them.

Kids can't get jobs because adults have to work in McDonalds, and Wendy's and Taco Bell to get enough money to support their families because of the restrictions on hours because of PPACA.


The problem is that of education. In 2012, 4.5% of people with bachelor's degrees were unemployed. I'm for making public universities free, myself.
 
2013-07-22 02:26:14 AM  
I'm not into reading walls of text. What is currently going on here?
 
2013-07-22 02:26:30 AM  

feckingmorons: Well if we had a functioning economy and there were jobs people could have more savings. PPACA has screwed that possibility in the near future. Even the public library where I worked is no longer hiring anyone at more than 24 hours a week because they would have to insure them.

Kids can't get jobs because adults have to work in McDonalds, and Wendy's and Taco Bell to get enough money to support their families because of the restrictions on hours because of PPACA.


The public library is government funded. The ACA has nothing to do with requiring  government employees to be provided health care. What that sounds like much more is that the library had their budget slashed, like thousands of libraries across the country, because of the economic downturn.

And the economy has been improving for several years now. All indicators are positive. We are no longer in a recession. Things aren't peachy, sure, but overall the economic health of the country has been increasing steadily for quite some time now.
 
2013-07-22 02:26:39 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: The answer to the health care dilemma is pretty simple:

National single payer system - Medicare for everyone

Premiums paid out of taxes at a progressive rate like income taxes (which I'd argue should be higher at the upper income levels as well)

A panel of doctors and experts sets the reimbursement costs at a fair level that lets medical facilities keep the doors open but still minimize costs, adjustments are made every couple years, maybe with a codified COLA adjustment in-between

All medical facilities are required by law to accept the government insurance

All doctors and medical facilities are required by law to perform any treatment to preserve life and quality of life for any patient who comes through the doors.  Appropriate exceptions can be made for the elderly for whom extreme measures would just slightly postpone death by natural causes.

Birth control, vasectomies, and other treatments that serve to save money in the long run would be covered.

Reconstructive plastic surgery (after burns, traumatic injuries, or to address defects such as hare lips) would be covered.

Vanity treatments like breast implants, calf implants, penis enlargements, etc, would have to come out of the patient's pocket


I also should have mentioned, something has to be done about the pharmaceutical lobby.  I get that drugs are expensive to develop, but we push way too many pills on way too many people, and there is too much marketing overhead cost included in medicine.

Maybe we should fund pharmaceutical development federally at various Universities with the resultant medications becoming public domain and open to generic production from day one, maybe we should just ban all pharmaceutical marketing and put severe limits on how pharma sales-reps can interact with doctors, I'm open so suggestions there.
 
2013-07-22 02:27:25 AM  

monty666: I'm not into reading walls of text. What is currently going on here?


An elephant has disappeared right in front of someone's very eyes.
 
2013-07-22 02:27:40 AM  

monty666: I'm not into reading walls of text. What is currently going on here?


Fecking is trying to pretend he's not a piece of sh*t by talking about how charitable he is
 
2013-07-22 02:28:16 AM  

feckingmorons: Stick it up your ass.

-Feckingmorons 7/22/2013


Truth stings, doesn't it?
 
2013-07-22 02:28:54 AM  

rappy: monty666: I'm not into reading walls of text. What is currently going on here?

Fecking is trying to pretend he's not a piece of sh*t by talking about how charitable he is


Heh, good luck for him with that.
 
2013-07-22 02:29:20 AM  
feckingmorons

Kids can't get jobs because adults have to work in McDonalds, and Wendy's and Taco Bell to get enough money to support their families because of the restrictions on hours because of PPACA.

No darling, for more than a decade, a majority of the job creation in this country has been in low wage occupations.
 
2013-07-22 02:29:23 AM  

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So tell Obama not to spend $100MM flying to Africa. We can economize, but the hue and cry when we try to cut a government job is astounding.

You realize the two are entirely unrelated, yes? If Obama were to stop flying right now and not leave the White House for the rest of his term, Medicare wouldn't get a  single penny more as a result.

My favorite example of sequester cut madness is to the Federal Public Defender. In a fit of genius, they're getting their budgets slashed, because the government is demanding across the board cuts on every single government program. So dozens of public defenders are going to get fired. But because legal representation is mandated by the Constitution, the government will  still be paying for it. Except now they're going to pay CJA Panel Attorneys at a higher rate than the federal public defenders, and the net result will be that the government will actually cost itself  more money by cutting the FPD budget. It's loony. And of course, the U.S. Attorneys are losing a dime of funding, and their hiring has continued apace. Fairness in the system!

/not bitter at all.


Yes I realize they are not related, and they did a similar thing with Florida PD's budgets until they put up a stink. Luckily they are elected and can get away with that.

We are allowing our elected representatives to bullshiat us all day long with nonsense. They are doing things like investigating the IRS, immigration reform, what to do about Syria. Who gives a shiat about Syria, those people over there have been killing each other for millenia, we won't ever stop it.

Worry about this country. Worry that companies are closing left and right, worry that we have a federal rasin reserve that charges rasin farmers to grow rasins, worry about the shiat that keeps us from working. Worry about public employee pensions that are bankrupting cities and counties and find a solution that doesn't screw the worker or the city - find some middle ground. Quit growing the government for the purpose of taxing us.
 
2013-07-22 02:30:48 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Your posting stuff from the Huffington Post! Pravda is more believable.

Dude. I posted multiple articles from CNN, one from ABC, one directly to Politifact, and one to HuffPo. The HuffPo article was simply reporting the results of a survey done by a third party. If you'd like, here is the survey itself, including methodology. The study was reported on dozens of other news sources, including CNN, MSNBC, USA Today, and many others. Hell, this isn't exactly groundbreaking journalism. Even Glenn Beck's The Blaze has reported on how Americans have very little savings.

Don't shoot the messenger without listening to what he has to say.

Well if we had a functioning economy and there were jobs people could have more savings. PPACA has screwed that possibility in the near future. Even the public library where I worked is no longer hiring anyone at more than 24 hours a week because they would have to insure them.

Kids can't get jobs because adults have to work in McDonalds, and Wendy's and Taco Bell to get enough money to support their families because of the restrictions on hours because of PPACA.


The reason there are fewer jobs is because of downsizing, to save the CEOs money, and Americans have little in the bank because wages stagnate or go down, not in keeping with inflation. The rich have gotten MUCH richer, by taking money from the middle class, causing them to become more poor. Some even want to eliminate the minimum wage. I make the same amount of money now, as a chemist, that my dad made 30 years ago as a janitor. Don't tell me some greed isn't involved.
 
2013-07-22 02:31:11 AM  

themindiswatching: feckingmorons: Well if we had a functioning economy and there were jobs people could have more savings. PPACA has screwed that possibility in the near future. Even the public library where I worked is no longer hiring anyone at more than 24 hours a week because they would have to insure them.

Kids can't get jobs because adults have to work in McDonalds, and Wendy's and Taco Bell to get enough money to support their families because of the restrictions on hours because of PPACA.

The problem is that of education. In 2012, 4.5% of people with bachelor's degrees were unemployed. I'm for making public universities free, myself.


But they won't be free. Nothing is free (except butterflies) someone - or in this case- everyone has to pay for them. Eventually you run out of other people's money.
 
2013-07-22 02:31:30 AM  

monty666: I'm not into reading walls of text. What is currently going on here?


It's a Mexican standoff between Tea Party Fecking and Socially Conscious Fecking.

May the best personality win!
 
2013-07-22 02:32:58 AM  
feckingmorons:

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.


In case you all forgot, FeckinM helped me negotiate a $4000 outrageous medical bill down to $1000.  And in case he's forgotten, that entire bill arose because my individual health insurance policy ($600/mo; reimburses at Medicare rates) made me go to the ER with a mangled finger.  There wasn't an English-speaking walk-in center available within a mile, and I wasn't able to drive since my right hand was the size of a melon.  So I took a cab to the ER, got X-rayed and splinted, and shoved out the door with just a doctor's name to see the next day.  (And a $10 Tylenol).

The next day, I called the doctor's office.  The day after that he saw me and charged me >$4000 for a 40-minute visit in which he looked at the x-ray, said yep it's broken, and wrote a scrip for physio. Fecks helped me on that, so thanks forever.

Since then, my PCP has moved out of my coverage area.  I have tried and tried to find a doctor who can see me for >10 minutes.  The only doctors who will take patients like me are doctors who work on salary, so university doctors.  They're the only ones willing to accept Medicare. And their waiting list is huge. It took nine months to get a first appointment with my former PCP, even though I was referred by a patient who was also a physio. That nine-month wait, coupled with the one-month wait to see the physiatrist, who immediately referred me to a neurologist (3 month wait for first appointment) nearly killed me.

I haven't seen a gyno in four years.  Don't know of one who accepts my insurance.

So, Fecks, tell me again how I have access to health care but I'm just scamming the system.  I don't. I'm not.
 
2013-07-22 02:34:34 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons

Kids can't get jobs because adults have to work in McDonalds, and Wendy's and Taco Bell to get enough money to support their families because of the restrictions on hours because of PPACA.

No darling, for more than a decade, a majority of the job creation in this country has been in low wage occupations.


Isn't 40 hours a week at McD's better than a 20 hour cap? If we were competitive in the global market place we could still manufacture stuff. There are jobs that pay well that are onshore, services don't pay particularly well, but science does and we don't want to offshore all our technological advances. We don't want our drugs manufactured in Bangaldesh.

We can't be competitive because of legacy employee benefits. A new auto plant worker doesn't get he benefits a guy from 1970 gets because 7% of the cost of a new car goes to pay the legacy benefits. Our government employees legacy benefits are even worse - except of course our veterans we kind of screw them.
 
2013-07-22 02:35:11 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Maybe we should fund pharmaceutical development federally at various Universities with the resultant medications becoming public domain and open to generic production from day one, maybe we should just ban all pharmaceutical marketing and put severe limits on how pharma sales-reps can interact with doctors, I'm open so suggestions there.


In theory, sounds great. In practice, never gonna happen. Pharm lobby will shut that down at the first hint of it in DC.
 
2013-07-22 02:35:21 AM  

feckingmorons: Yes I realize they are not related, and they did a similar thing with Florida PD's budgets until they put up a stink. Luckily they are elected and can get away with that.

We are allowing our elected representatives to bullshiat us all day long with nonsense. They are doing things like investigating the IRS, immigration reform, what to do about Syria. Who gives a shiat about Syria, those people over there have been killing each other for millenia, we won't ever stop it.

Worry about this country. Worry that companies are closing left and right, worry that we have a federal rasin reserve that charges rasin farmers to grow rasins, worry about the shiat that keeps us from working. Worry about public employee pensions that are bankrupting cities and counties and find a solution that doesn't screw the worker or the city - find some middle ground. Quit growing the government for the purpose of taxing us


And that's the fundamental difference right there. You think the purpose of more government is to tax people. I think the purpose of larger government is to provide more services for people who need them. I think we're in fundamental agreement that a whole lot of government is badly managed, and priorities are often misplaced.

I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but I strongly get the sense from you that your  preferred solution would be to just  get rid of the programs. Whereas mine would be to  fix them.
 
2013-07-22 02:36:12 AM  
feckingmorons Worry about this country. Worry that companies are closing left and right,

The BIG companies are not closing, they're just heading toward countries that pay 25 cents an hour. The end result is that a LOT of Americans are out of work, and so they can't afford to spend a lot of money at the corner Mom/Pop restaurant, or get their hair cut as often, they head toward the BIG BOX store to save as much as they can, and the cycle repeats. Siphoning off our money for stuff made by the equivalent of slave labor. The only people ULTIMATELY winning in this scenario of the ones wearing satin and lace, and gilded crowns.
 
2013-07-22 02:36:13 AM  

feckingmorons: In case I wasn't clear:

[i1.sndcdn.com image 300x300]


Finally, an honest slogan from the GOP.
 
2013-07-22 02:36:57 AM  

ElizaDoolittle: So, Fecks, tell me again how I have access to health care but I'm just scamming the system.  I don't. I'm not.


I never said you were.

This isn't getting anywhere. I am just burning bridges with this. I think I better just leave.
 
2013-07-22 02:37:17 AM  

Rincewind53: And that's the fundamental difference right there. You think the purpose of more government is to tax people. I think the purpose of larger government is to provide more services for people who need them. I think we're in fundamental agreement that a whole lot of government is badly managed, and priorities are often misplaced.


But see, that would cost more money. And most likely someone would just make off with the extra money so we might as well not even try and just let private industry handle it because they'd never waste taxpayer money.
 
2013-07-22 02:37:49 AM  

Rincewind53: You think the purpose of more government is to tax people


Specifially the IRS as it relates to PPACA was the meaning of that.
 
2013-07-22 02:38:22 AM  

stilted: TuteTibiImperes: Maybe we should fund pharmaceutical development federally at various Universities with the resultant medications becoming public domain and open to generic production from day one, maybe we should just ban all pharmaceutical marketing and put severe limits on how pharma sales-reps can interact with doctors, I'm open so suggestions there.

In theory, sounds great. In practice, never gonna happen. Pharm lobby will shut that down at the first hint of it in DC.


Limiting pharma sales reps' interactions with doctors is going to put a lot of former cheerleaders out of work and diminish oral sex opportunities for doctors. That just isn't a nice outcome. It's too sad.
 
2013-07-22 02:39:35 AM  
feckingmorons

Isn't 40 hours a week at McD's better than a 20 hour cap?

Work a year or two on today's minimum wage trying to support yourself, much less a child, and get back to me with your answer.
 
2013-07-22 02:40:46 AM  
feckingmorons

This isn't getting anywhere. I am just burning bridges with this. I think I better just leave.

Or you could stay, and think of this as an intervention by people who care.
 
2013-07-22 02:41:03 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: You think the purpose of more government is to tax people

Specifially the IRS as it relates to PPACA was the meaning of that.


You and I both know that no matter what John Roberts says, the Individual Mandate isn't actually a tax, it's a requirement to purchase health insurance that carries a penalty for failure to comply.
 
2013-07-22 02:42:13 AM  
So you see, that's why no one could ever convince me to become conservative.
 
2013-07-22 02:42:59 AM  

feckingmorons: Isn't 40 hours a week at McD's better than a 20 hour cap?


You assume that people can actually get 40 hours at McDonalds, or even be able to take multiple part-time jobs to make up for it.
 
2013-07-22 02:43:24 AM  

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Rincewind53: You think the purpose of more government is to tax people

Specifially the IRS as it relates to PPACA was the meaning of that.

You and I both know that no matter what John Roberts says, the Individual Mandate isn't actually a tax, it's a requirement to purchase health insurance that carries a penalty for failure to comply.


AKA, the usual Republican twist of the knife.
 
2013-07-22 02:45:29 AM  

themindiswatching: feckingmorons: Isn't 40 hours a week at McD's better than a 20 hour cap?

You assume that people can actually get 40 hours at McDonalds, or even be able to take multiple part-time jobs to make up for it.


Now you're talking.
 
2013-07-22 02:45:35 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: stilted: TuteTibiImperes: Maybe we should fund pharmaceutical development federally at various Universities with the resultant medications becoming public domain and open to generic production from day one, maybe we should just ban all pharmaceutical marketing and put severe limits on how pharma sales-reps can interact with doctors, I'm open so suggestions there.

In theory, sounds great. In practice, never gonna happen. Pharm lobby will shut that down at the first hint of it in DC.

Limiting pharma sales reps' interactions with doctors is going to put a lot of former cheerleaders out of work and diminish oral sex opportunities for doctors. That just isn't a nice outcome. It's too sad.


I still have my Oxycontin pen that I swiped from a doctor's office. Or at least I think I do, somewhere at my mom's place. Along with my Ambien pen, which has always been a wonderful ink stick. I could draw three-eyed people all night with that thing.
 
2013-07-22 02:47:24 AM  

SuperTramp: feckingmorons

Isn't 40 hours a week at McD's better than a 20 hour cap?

Work a year or two on today's minimum wage trying to support yourself, much less a child, and get back to me with your answer.


I did this. With two kids.It sucked but it got me thru til I could get something better.
 
2013-07-22 02:47:31 AM  

feckingmorons: Eventually you run out of other people's money.


I see the problem here - you get your ideas from bumper stickers, and don't actually think them out for yourself. So the answer to subby's question, for you, would be no.
 
2013-07-22 02:48:01 AM  

monty666: I'm not into reading walls of text. What is currently going on here?


img.fark.net
 
2013-07-22 02:48:21 AM  

Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Yes I realize they are not related, and they did a similar thing with Florida PD's budgets until they put up a stink. Luckily they are elected and can get away with that.

We are allowing our elected representatives to bullshiat us all day long with nonsense. They are doing things like investigating the IRS, immigration reform, what to do about Syria. Who gives a shiat about Syria, those people over there have been killing each other for millenia, we won't ever stop it.

Worry about this country. Worry that companies are closing left and right, worry that we have a federal rasin reserve that charges rasin farmers to grow rasins, worry about the shiat that keeps us from working. Worry about public employee pensions that are bankrupting cities and counties and find a solution that doesn't screw the worker or the city - find some middle ground. Quit growing the government for the purpose of taxing us

And that's the fundamental difference right there. You think the purpose of more government is to tax people. I think the purpose of larger government is to provide more services for people who need them. I think we're in fundamental agreement that a whole lot of government is badly managed, and priorities are often misplaced.

I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but I strongly get the sense from you that your  preferred solution would be to just  get rid of the programs. Whereas mine would be to  fix them.


Therein lies the rub. Bureaucrats tend to look at government's function is to justify their salaries. They do this by managing problems. Not solving them, because if you solve a problem, funding goes away, and thus their budgets are reduced, their pull in their departments is lessened, and tiers of employees are shifted, fired, retired, or reduced in their hours. But, bureacrats are only part of issue, and while they certainly have their input on bills, and what they need, there is also the matter of lawmakers. And right now, laws are ballooning in size and scope. Not necessarily for more naked power grabs--though, there is some of that in some areas--but in terms of regulation, we have such fine gradations built into laws, that they create some odd pockets that attorneys--who oddly enough help craft such legislation--can find loopholes that exempt their clients from pretty much the spirit of the laws in question. In matters of taxation and subsidies, we are creating very much a client system where we are actively skewing from a free market, to an assisted market that rewards some players to help them freeze out competition. This IS an issue of government, but not so much about size, but the complexity, and building more layers of complexity, just to be able to shoe horn in clients' needs, over the needs of the populace in general.

Like anything, it's not a mater of too much or too little, it's a matter of taxing wisely. It's a matter of regulating wisely. It's a matter of doing the job that the nation needs, as opposed to the needs of those who are putting cash into your pocket for reelection, and that is sort of big one. And, oddly enough, campaign finance reform is one of those issues where you can see very clearly who opposes it, who supports it, by how much they are getting from those who might be barred from giving, or worse, not having anyone give anything at all, which terrifies our lawmakers and elected officials, because then they might actually have to try to survive on the salary that they'd be paid for public service, and who can really live on that? I mean besides someone who might actually want to actually serve the public, as opposed to their buddies and those who will give them jobs after they get out, or even slide some cash on the side to some favorite charity or company that they happen to have stock in?
 
2013-07-22 02:48:56 AM  
I also had an OPANA stack of post-its that some house guest with a pen turned into OBAMA post-its.
 
2013-07-22 02:50:28 AM  
 
2013-07-22 02:50:49 AM  
All the time. Most of their "arguments" are blatantly wrong though, so they're really just making their side look less appealing than it already was.
 
2013-07-22 02:53:51 AM  

hubiestubert: Therein lies the rub. Bureaucrats tend to look at government's function is to justify their salaries. They do this by managing problems. Not solving them, because if you solve a problem, funding goes away, and thus their budgets are reduced, their pull in their departments is lessened, and tiers of employees are shifted, fired, retired, or reduced in their hours. But, bureacrats are only part of issue, and while they certainly have their input on bills, and what they need, there is also the matter of lawmakers. And right now, laws are ballooning in size and scope. Not necessarily for more naked power grabs--though, there is some of that in some areas--but in terms of regulation, we have such fine gradations built into laws, that they create some odd pockets that attorneys--who oddly enough help craft such legislation--can find loopholes that exempt their clients from pretty much the spirit of the laws in question. In matters of taxation and subsidies, we are creating very much a client system where we are actively skewing from a free market, to an assisted market that rewards some players to help them freeze out competition. This IS an issue of government, but not so much about size, but the complexity, and building more layers of complexity, just to be able to shoe horn in clients' needs, over the needs of the populace in general.

Like anything, it's not a mater of too much or too little, it's a matter of taxing wisely. It's a matter of regulating wisely. It's a matter of doing the job that the nation needs, as opposed to the needs of those who are putting cash into your pocket for reelection, and that is sort of big one. And, oddly enough, campaign finance reform is one of those issues where you can see very clearly who opposes it, who supports it, by how much they are getting from those who might be barred from giving, or worse, not having anyone give anything at all, which terrifies our lawmakers and elected officials, because then they might actually have to t ...


You make some good points, and I couldn't agree with you more about campaign finance, but I think your broader point about the free market isn't entirely fair. I'd argue that the "free market" is largely a myth; that government has  always been the driver of market forces, and that the idea of an actual free market is utopian at best and dystopian at worst (depending on your particular political bent). I think in many ways, our government is more deregulated than it's been in thirty years. We have consistently failed to achieve any sort of regulation that will actually correct the problems of the financial sector, for instance. "Too big to jail" is, in essence, a way of throwing up our hands and saying that  big business won.
 
2013-07-22 02:53:52 AM  

Bllasae: All the time.


Does this mean you bounce back and forth between the two ?
 
2013-07-22 02:53:54 AM  

hubiestubert: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: Yes I realize they are not related, and they did a similar thing with Florida PD's budgets until they put up a stink. Luckily they are elected and can get away with that.

We are allowing our elected representatives to bullshiat us all day long with nonsense. They are doing things like investigating the IRS, immigration reform, what to do about Syria. Who gives a shiat about Syria, those people over there have been killing each other for millenia, we won't ever stop it.

Worry about this country. Worry that companies are closing left and right, worry that we have a federal rasin reserve that charges rasin farmers to grow rasins, worry about the shiat that keeps us from working. Worry about public employee pensions that are bankrupting cities and counties and find a solution that doesn't screw the worker or the city - find some middle ground. Quit growing the government for the purpose of taxing us

And that's the fundamental difference right there. You think the purpose of more government is to tax people. I think the purpose of larger government is to provide more services for people who need them. I think we're in fundamental agreement that a whole lot of government is badly managed, and priorities are often misplaced.

I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but I strongly get the sense from you that your  preferred solution would be to just  get rid of the programs. Whereas mine would be to  fix them.

Therein lies the rub. Bureaucrats tend to look at government's function is to justify their salaries. They do this by managing problems. Not solving them, because if you solve a problem, funding goes away, and thus their budgets are reduced, their pull in their departments is lessened, and tiers of employees are shifted, fired, retired, or reduced in their hours. But, bureacrats are only part of issue, and while they certainly have their input on bills, and what they need, there is also the matter of lawmakers. And right now, laws are ballooning in size and scope. Not necessarily for more naked power grabs--though, there is some of that in some areas--but in terms of regulation, we have such fine gradations built into laws, that they create some odd pockets that attorneys--who oddly enough help craft such legislation--can find loopholes that exempt their clients from pretty much the spirit of the laws in question. In matters of taxation and subsidies, we are creating very much a client system where we are actively skewing from a free market, to an assisted market that rewards some players to help them freeze out competition. This IS an issue of government, but not so much about size, but the complexity, and building more layers of complexity, just to be able to shoe horn in clients' needs, over the needs of the populace in general.

Like anything, it's not a mater of too much or too little, it's a matter of taxing wisely. It's a matter of regulating wisely. It's a matter of doing the job that the nation needs, as opposed to the needs of those who are putting cash into your pocket for reelection, and that is sort of big one. And, oddly enough, campaign finance reform is one of those issues where you can see very clearly who opposes it, who supports it, by how much they are getting from those who might be barred from giving, or worse, not having anyone give anything at all, which terrifies our lawmakers and elected officials, because then they might actually have to try to survive on the salary that they'd be paid for public service, and who can really live on that? I mean besides someone who might actually want to actually serve the public, as opposed to their buddies and those who will give them jobs after they get out, or even slide some cash on the side to some favorite charity or company that they happen to have stock in?


Why do you hate America?
 
2013-07-22 02:54:53 AM  

Abacus9: feckingmorons: Eventually you run out of other people's money.

I see the problem here - you get your ideas from bumper stickers, and don't actually think them out for yourself. So the answer to subby's question, for you, would be no.


Look at the second post. The answer is no.

I should have stopped with that post.
 
2013-07-22 02:57:00 AM  

violentsalvation: I also had an OPANA stack of post-its that some house guest with a pen turned into OBAMA post-its.


Thanks, OPANA!
 
2013-07-22 02:59:31 AM  
Yup, the GOP leadership convinced me to become more liberal, or else maybe the mark has just been moved.

Honestly, I was against single-payer healthcare, until the compromise Obamacare passed, and I see what a piece of crap it is and how single-payer would have been better.
 
2013-07-22 03:03:08 AM  
I went from an 18 yr old Reagan-worshiper to what-is-commonly-referred-to-as-liberal-in-the-United-States, yes, but on my own accord.  Education, experience and ceasing to hate/fear "different" people for no particular reason tends to do that to a person.  Mmmyeessss.

It's kind of amazing, like, if you open your mind and try to understand stuff, you can... better understand the world around you.

And teachers paved the way for everything.  Teachers rule.  Some of them are hot, too, and have firm thighs and perky breasts.

And science is farking cool as shiat.

/science even works fairly well on a social science like economics, provided you abide by all the definitions and the entire framework
//*COUGH*that means you can't make up your own rules and pretend that externalities don't exist, silly libertarians*COUGH*
/was a libertarian for a couple months a few decades ago when i was still transitioning. sorry about that. reason.com is gay
 
2013-07-22 03:03:17 AM  
i'm not even really sure just wtf value words like 'conservative' or 'liberal' really have in modern american politics, with the exception of some kind of 'brand' identity that has no real ideological core.

'conservative' in power looks a helluva lot different than 'conservative' in power, for examples sake - the word either has no real meaning, or we have to alter it with election cycles so frequently that it's anybody's guess what it means at that moment.

but to the question in the headline, yah, somebody convinced me to change my political registration, if nothing else. his name was Jerry Fallwell.
 
2013-07-22 03:04:05 AM  

feckingmorons: If we were competitive in the global market place we could still manufacture stuff.


We can't be competitive in the global marketplace when our competitors can find a practically endless supply of labor willing to work 60-80 hours per week for $1 per hour.  Manufacturing, in the global economy, will flow to the poorest nation that still has the infrastructure to support the manufacturing.

Unless you want to race to the bottom and try to out-poverty the third-world nations, most of our manufacturing is gone for good, unless we decided to change either our trade or immigration policies.  A free movement of money and goods with a highly restricted movement of people favors sending the jobs to wherever the poorest people live.
 
2013-07-22 03:05:04 AM  
What is the saying?

"If you're 20 and not a liberal you have no heart, if you're 50 and not a conservative you have no money"

I'm pretty much a liberal on all things but spending, but I make exceptions and don't live in a world where math doesn't matter.

Also the more extreme the GOP and their fundies go, the more I want to stay away from that mental illness.
 
2013-07-22 03:05:45 AM  
erm....make that second one 'out of power'. or don't, i suppose it still kinda works.
 
2013-07-22 03:05:59 AM  
I want to say liberal but whenever I think about any political issues I always just end up as an anarchist. I know that it doesn't work at all, I think I just listened to too much Crass back in the day and now thats that.
 
2013-07-22 03:07:37 AM  

OhioUGrad: What is the saying?

"If you're 20 and not a liberal you have no heart, if you're 50 and not a conservative you have no money"

I'm pretty much a liberal on all things but spending, but I make exceptions and don't live in a world where math doesn't matter.

Also the more extreme the GOP and their fundies go, the more I want to stay away from that mental illness.


My 89-year-old rich doctor grandfather routinely sends me articles complaining about the horrible things Republicans are doing.
 
2013-07-22 03:09:30 AM  
OhioUGrad

What is the saying?

"If you're 20 and not a liberal you have no heart, if you're 50 and not a conservative you have no money"


There is also another saying, ""A woman in advancing old age is unstoppable by any earthly force"
 
2013-07-22 03:10:15 AM  
When I was younger, I was a long-haired anti-establishment goon. I've since learned many things about human nature and what people will do when left to their own devices - leading me to understand just how much we need the system to thrive.

log_jammin: the words "conservative" and "liberal" mean nothing in american politics anymore beyond name calling.


You're right - those "both sides are the same" blockheads ARE exceedingly annoying.
/I'm sure everything looks the same from all the way over there in Loony Libertopia
 
2013-07-22 03:10:42 AM  

Triumph: angrymacface: Once I realized that conservatives are horribly selfish people, I realized I didn't want to be one.

I know, right - BLAARRGGH oh look, vomit everywhere.


**SLAP**

Now clean that sh*t up. You reek.
 
2013-07-22 03:11:55 AM  
YOU CAN'T MAKE ME GO TO REHAB!


/wtf happened in here?
 
2013-07-22 03:14:26 AM  
I was born and raised in a republican household, and attended catholic school my whole life. In NY, mind you, so not "religious-right-conservative", but certainly "Reaganomics".

I became liberal gradually through education in economics, history, and science.
 
2013-07-22 03:15:05 AM  
AverageAmericanGuy

/wtf happened in here?

...aaaaannddd I'm out. no time left for the derp brigade.

Who knew AAG would get a song by Canadians?
 
2013-07-22 03:16:52 AM  
I can't imagine it being a specific enough process for it to be one person alone to cause it.
 
2013-07-22 03:19:23 AM  
I enjoy having the liberty to conserve the things that work and change the things that don't.


....it really is that f*cking simple.

far left is delusional idiots
far right is delusional assholes

period
 
2013-07-22 03:19:26 AM  

Gig103: Yup, the GOP leadership convinced me to become more liberal, or else maybe the mark has just been moved.

Honestly, I was against single-payer healthcare, until the compromise Obamacare passed, and I see what a piece of crap it is and how single-payer would have been better.


The GOP leadership has perhaps convinced you to switch labels.

Living in Japan with "socialized" medicine, it's pretty clear which system is better, when comparing to the healthcare system in the U.S.
 
2013-07-22 03:20:45 AM  

SuperTramp: feckerd?

do you have those files on me?

The incept date

The longevity


I WANT MORE LIFE, FATHER
 
2013-07-22 03:21:59 AM  

craigdamage: I enjoy having the liberty to conserve the things that work and change the things that don't.


....it really is that f*cking simple.

far left is delusional idiots
far right is delusional assholes

period


Fortunately the far left has almost no one in political power, and the far r-OH HOLY HELL WHO GAVE THEM THE KEYS TO THE GOVERNMENT??
 
2013-07-22 03:29:26 AM  
Bush and Mittens made me go republican to libertarian by... well... sucking.  To be fair to Bush, it really didnt happen until the election when I realized the cliche about the republicans just caring about the rich was not only accurate, it could be personified into an actual human named Mitt.   Of course, being liberal, was out of the question, so I found a home in the party that cared about EVERYONEs rights not just those with money, and not just ones that get free money from the ones with money.

And of course now that the government is tracking vehicle movement, phone calls, email, text, breaths per hour and caloric intake, I am very solidly in this camp.
 
2013-07-22 03:34:08 AM  
*PAGING WEAVER95*

*PAGING WEAVER95*

Seriously though, he made a fascinating transition. He went from being one of the more abrasive right-wing characters on Fark to being one of the most engaging and interesting regular posters on the website.

I wouldn't say that that was a Conservative to Liberal conversion, but he certainly converted into something I think is pretty awesome.
 
2013-07-22 03:39:42 AM  

I sound fat: and not just ones that get free money from the ones with money.


Who's getting this free money I keep hearing about?
 
2013-07-22 03:44:45 AM  

OhioUGrad: What is the saying?

"If you're 20 and not a liberal you have no heart, if you're 50 and not a conservative you have no money"


I was pretty conservative (uk sense, not batshiat US style) at 20. I then went out and saw most of the world. at an affluent 45 I am very much 'liberal' in the american style. People are worth more than money.
 
2013-07-22 03:48:52 AM  
craigdamage
I enjoy having the liberty to conserve the things that work and change the things that don't.

You make it sound like unzipping your pants.
 
2013-07-22 03:49:38 AM  
No, but lately many knee-jerk liberals have been convincing me that I'm more conservative than I'd thought.
 
2013-07-22 03:53:37 AM  
I am liberal mostly because they are the least religulous party. I say least, because they are still religulous. But in tendency, they favor secular policy over religious policy.

We only need to look at the lowest rungs of both parties to see this is true.
 
2013-07-22 03:56:54 AM  
I haven't been "convinced to change" except that while I never voted GOP before (while giving candidates at least the benefit of inspection of their positions), the recent wave of teatards/Palinites/etc has now made me morally commit to never do so at all again.
 
2013-07-22 04:00:24 AM  
goatleggedfellow

No, but lately many knee-jerk liberals have been convincing me that I'm more conservative than I'd thought.

Keep your legs a little straighter
 
2013-07-22 04:03:58 AM  
I was extremely conservative due to my upbringing until about 18 years old. I decided I wanted to learn more about the conservative cause, so I started listening to to talk radio, namely Laura Ingram and Rush Limbaugh. I was never religious but I could appreciate the ideals of smaller government and personal responsibility. But the longer and closer I listened (i was just reaching the age that I could even appreciate the meaning of half the stuff they were talking about.)  I began noticing that there wasn't a whole lot of actual news  or information being shared, just hour long rants about how THEY (liberals, gays, atheists, scientists, aliens, etc) were out to destroy the true Americans.  I began researching all of these horrendous plagues that the liberal agenda was releasing into society, and realized very quickly that about 98.9% of the Wharbergharble was pure fear mongering.  So in a weird way i feel like I should thank Rush for converting me.  To bad it makes it extremely difficult to talk with my parents about ANY topic, as they usually feel the need to let me know what Fox News has to say on the matter.
 
2013-07-22 04:10:47 AM  

Sum Dum Gai: feckingmorons: If we were competitive in the global market place we could still manufacture stuff.

We can't be competitive in the global marketplace when our competitors can find a practically endless supply of labor willing to work 60-80 hours per week for $1 per hour.  Manufacturing, in the global economy, will flow to the poorest nation that still has the infrastructure to support the manufacturing.

Unless you want to race to the bottom and try to out-poverty the third-world nations, most of our manufacturing is gone for good, unless we decided to change either our trade or immigration policies.  A free movement of money and goods with a highly restricted movement of people favors sending the jobs to wherever the poorest people live.


Uh no.
1. Labor isn't the only input. Among many other companies,  GE found out the hard way that you can't export manufacturing institutional knowledge, experience. or quality.
2. Manufacturing in the US has shifted to higher-value production.
3. The perverse TAX incentives that led to companies exporting jobs can and should be reversed.
4. American workers are extremely productive.
 
2013-07-22 04:11:14 AM  
Nobody who knows me would even try.
 
2013-07-22 04:19:16 AM  
Richard Nixon cured me of conservatism.
 
2013-07-22 04:21:13 AM  
When I was age 5-6-7, I frequently heard my parents and their friends talk about President Kennedy saying things like "He is good for the country". "He makes us proud to be Americans"

When I was 12 and Richard Nixon was elected, my science teacher said "I am a Democrat, but I think he will be good because Republicans reduce inflation". That would be 1968.

By 1969, I was in high school and the news was filtering down about college kids protesting the war in Vietnam, people burning draft cards, moratoriums, the Kent State shootings, Edwin Starr's song "War, what is it good for" and all the other anti-war music.

Beyond the war which was the primary issue in the news when I was aged 13-16 I staked other liberal positions that just made sense compared to what the Republicans were offering.

One other influence was listening to my 11th grade history teacher debate a conservative after class, which led me to see that liberal positions made sense. But the only thing I remember was the conservative saying but but but socialism in South America, and my history teacher saying "a little bit of socialism would help South Amrerica"

January 1973, America's fighting in Vietnam ended, but news about Watergate and Nixon sending spies to break in to Daniel Ellsberg's doctor to seek his medical records and the year and a half of Republican bulldog defending that Nixon did no wrong pretty much cemented my view of the parties, and the Republican positions on the issues just were just as sucky.

The Republicans talk freedom, but want to take away a women's right to an abortion in the first trimester. They talk about freedom, but wanted to arrest people for "sodomy" (read:homosexuality). And when Republicans were Dixiecrats, they were against interracial marriage until the Supreme Court cemented it's universal legality.
 
2013-07-22 04:29:29 AM  
It would be unfair to say that Bush convinced me to become a liberal.  It would be more accurate to say that the majority of the Republican party during the early 2000s convinced me.

I voted for Dole in 1996 (that's how conservative I was) and Bush in 2000.  Didn't vote in 2004.  Been the libbiest lib who ever libbed since.
 
2013-07-22 04:43:52 AM  

I Like Bread: When I was younger, I was a long-haired anti-establishment goon. I've since learned many things about human nature and what people will do when left to their own devices - leading me to understand just how much we need the system to thrive.

log_jammin: the words "conservative" and "liberal" mean nothing in american politics anymore beyond name calling.

You're right - those "both sides are the same" blockheads ARE exceedingly annoying.
/I'm sure everything looks the same from all the way over there in Loony Libertopia


Yesterday in the Samsung Galaxy vs iPhone thread some blockhead managed to get into the thread to announce to all the people discussing the differences that they're really all the same. I imagined that his dumbphone might have been a BSABSVRphone.
 
2013-07-22 04:44:32 AM  
Few people will fundamentally change their political mind set on things. They might change their minds on certain issues even if it means 'breaking away' from what is 'typical' of their political views.

For instance, I'm a small government Republican, I support full gay rights but that may be because I'm an atheist as well.
 
2013-07-22 04:51:39 AM  

randomjsa: Few people will fundamentally change their political mind set on things. They might change their minds on certain issues even if it means 'breaking away' from what is 'typical' of their political views.

For instance, I'm a small government Republican, I support full gay rights but that may be because I'm an atheist as well.


It may also be because you believe in personal freedom. That's something the Religious Right has vociferously driven the Republican party away from, to the detriment of everyone.

We never should have let those assholes into the party.
 
2013-07-22 04:59:43 AM  
I think we all owe fm a big hand for showing up and giving us a perfect example of today's typical conservative: wrong about darn near everything, and proud of it.  Also, disappears when faced with facts, logic, and reason.

It was almost like this thread was created with him in mind.  And he came through like a champ.
 
2013-07-22 05:07:56 AM  
Yeah.  

Old lady looked on my hairy balls and said, "Oh... you need to trim that quickly," with such shame at a sex party.

I am now more conservative with hair and more liberal with who I share that story with.
 
2013-07-22 05:16:35 AM  
Senator Hal Daub (R).

I met the man face to face, as a kid, he proceeded to horrify me with every sort of justification for death squadding nuns in El Salvador. I have never wanted anything to do with that side of the fence since that day.
 
2013-07-22 05:19:32 AM  

Tor_Eckman: I think we all owe fm a big hand for showing up and giving us a perfect example of today's typical conservative: wrong about darn near everything, and proud of it.  Also, disappears when faced with facts, logic, and reason.

It was almost like this thread was created with him in mind.  And he came through like a champ.


And he thought he was being attacked personally, even though almost no one did that, and most even mentioned how nice and charitable he usually is. Some people are just never willing to consider they might be wrong about something.
 
2013-07-22 05:25:43 AM  
Dear subby...

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-22 05:34:36 AM  
In an ideal society, we're all born conservatives, liberals at puberty, moderates in adulthood, conspiracy theorists in middle age, and terrified yet apathetic in old age.
 
2013-07-22 05:35:55 AM  

doglover: monty666: doglover: monty666: doglover: MappingChick: feckingmorons: MappingChick: No, but a lot of people like telling me how I should know more about Jesus.

Come on over on Thursday he does the lawn with a couple of other guys.

/I think he is married.

Your joke is much better than the one I was trying to formulate.

[hateandanger.files.wordpress.com image 500x587]

I really have to get a cowboy hat.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 570x402]

I'm thinking more Roofie Cowboy. Yeee-ha!

[i25.photobucket.com image 400x400]


best thing ive seen all day. thanks, partner...lolz
 
2013-07-22 05:38:30 AM  
If you align yourself with the current GOP you are either incredibly stupid, mentally ill or both.
 
2013-07-22 05:41:09 AM  
This is a quote that made me think twice about some of my views:

"The spirit of system, a fertile Source of error, fertile in most sciences, is peculiarly so in political economy. It is a foe to solid knowledge; the more insidious and fatal because it usually accompanies superior mental capacity, being very nearly allied to that love and relish of truth which distinguishes minds of a superior order. The spirit of system consists in a tendency to reduce all phenomena to a few general rules, and to find a greater degree of order, symmetry, and simplicity in the natural, moral, or political world than really exists, or can exist. Instead of expanding the mind to the rich and endless variety and subtlety [sic] of nature or art, it would contract that variety to the narrow limits of the human understanding. It finds ready acceptance with all men; for it flatters both the pride and the indolence of human nature. It is much easier to comprehend and apply a few general rules than to understand the complicated structure and regulations of human society. Any man may make a parade of knowledge by dogmatizing [sic] about imaginary general principles, but to master facts, details, and the results of experience, is a long, toilsome, and humbling occupation."

- John Baynard Byles
 
2013-07-22 05:45:28 AM  
Star Trek
 
2013-07-22 05:49:25 AM  

Whiskey Pete: If you align yourself with the current GOP you are either incredibly stupid, mentally ill or both.


Or just a complete asshole. Yet, none of these categories are mutually exclusive.
 
2013-07-22 05:55:04 AM  
I'm neither, but I like science and facts, so nowadays that means I'm a lib.
 
2013-07-22 05:59:20 AM  
The whole conservative or liberal is a false dichotomy, and is meaningless. Healthy politics requires all responsible voices to be heard. It is the dynamic tension between ideas along the political spectrum that leads to workable policy outcomes over time.
 
2013-07-22 06:00:38 AM  

RedPhoenix122: syrynxx: Who am I going to vote for now?

Pedro.




I don't vote for white guys.
 
2013-07-22 06:06:08 AM  
I believe helping everyone who can't or won't help themselves.  I believe in making sure that every child has a safe, warm home with no lack of food, clothing, or guardianship.  I believe in making sure that women are the only ones who get to decide when they're ready to reproduce.  I believe in making sure that every citizen has equal rights regardless of how they behave in the bedroom.  I believe in healing the sick, no matter the illness or cost if that is what the patient wants.  I believe in public and civil service, not just at home, but abroad.

I give to the poor and needy in my community and work to make sure that my elected officials understand how the policies they may not like really are the best in the long run and that implementing a half bad idea now is much better than never changing the whole bad system.

The older I get the more of a busy-body libby-liberal I get. I'm just trying to be a good person and there seems to be only one side of the political spectrum that really runs in that direction.
 
2013-07-22 06:06:23 AM  

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


You're probably just standing still, the political spectrum is shifting right underneath your feet.
 
2013-07-22 06:07:00 AM  

gadian: I believe helping everyone who can't or won't help themselves.  I believe in making sure that every child has a safe, warm home with no lack of food, clothing, or guardianship.  I believe in making sure that women are the only ones who get to decide when they're ready to reproduce.  I believe in making sure that every citizen has equal rights regardless of how they behave in the bedroom.  I believe in healing the sick, no matter the illness or cost if that is what the patient wants.  I believe in public and civil service, not just at home, but abroad.

I give to the poor and needy in my community and work to make sure that my elected officials understand how the policies they may not like really are the best in the long run and that implementing a half bad idea now is much better than never changing the whole bad system.

The older I get the more of a busy-body libby-liberal I get. I'm just trying to be a good person and there seems to be only one side of the political spectrum that really runs in that direction.


DINO!!
 
2013-07-22 06:11:27 AM  
I was just looking at my pay stub for the first half of the year. I feel damn fortunate that I can afford to have over $30k paid in taxes so far this year. I get to live well because society supported me for a long time, and now I am fortunate enough that the system have given me an opportunity to enjoy some measure of success while giving back to the system.
 
2013-07-22 06:11:50 AM  
I was once a libertarian, but my GF asked me "Why would you support a political party who only believes the state should fund just the military and the police?".  I married her and become a liberal.
 
2013-07-22 06:13:58 AM  
Follow up questions...

a)  Has anyone ever convinced you to change from being racist to being non-racist (or vice-versa)?
b)  Has anyone ever convinced you to change from being religious to being non-religious (or vice-versa)?

/key point is "anyone" other than yourself, not any situation/inspiration
 
2013-07-22 06:17:59 AM  
I guess in a way, but it really wasn't any one person.  When I was younger I was more conservative, but then I started working and got out into the real world and turned more liberal.  It was more me being told all these horror stories of what would happen if Bill Clinton was elected by conservatives I knew and I believed them. I guess unfortunately for them and fortunately for me, I paid attention to things and the exact opposite happened from what my conservative friends told me would happen.  When I expressed this contradiction of reality and what they wanted reality to be expecting a rational conversation on the subject, but all they did was chew me out and call me names for not agreeing with them.  That was before the GOP totally jumped the shark.

Of course for a while that riled me up to where I felt I had to be the "counter balance" to all these conservatives I know, unintentionally becoming as much of a "jerk" from the left as they were from the right. Then I had an epiphany after reading on of my rants that I was just like them and probably did way more harm than good as far as convincing anybody on the fence.  So now when I see a post on Facebook or hear a friend spew right-wing political fallacies I just keep my mouth shut and leave them be and join the people who comment what a raving lunatic they are.
 
2013-07-22 06:20:39 AM  

magores: a) Has anyone ever convinced you to change from being racist to being non-racist (or vice-versa)?
b) Has anyone ever convinced you to change from being religious to being non-religious (or vice-versa)?

/key point is "anyone" other than yourself, not any situation/inspiration


No on both counts.  Plenty of people have tried to convert me one way or another.  Neither racism or religion make much damn sense to me.  I remember sitting in church as a really small child and looking around wondering if any of the grown ups in the room really believe that nonsense.
 
2013-07-22 06:21:29 AM  
I used to be hard core right wing christian conservative.  it wasn't 'one thing' that convinced me to change...unless that 'one thing' was several prominent conservatives.  it was more of a process.  lies and contradictions piles up so high and so far that I simply could not ignore the evidence any longer.  everything I'd been told was a lie.  church leaders were lying to me about their greed and lust.  Republican leaders dragged us into a war on a whim, then lied about the causes.  Corporate america sold us out for $50 and a bag of cheetos.  Conservatives weren't 'small government', they just wanted the government to control certain people and activities.  And there was simply no reason, logical or scientific, to keep cannabis illegal.  Eventually all those lies, contradictions and paradoxes added up to something I couldn't ignore.  and once I'd accepted that the GOP was lying to me....the rest sort of fell into place.
 
2013-07-22 06:23:24 AM  
of course, now I"m a moderate 'liberal' democrat and semi-out of the broom closet as a pagan.  so yeah, I went from hard core right wing conservative christian Republican to damn near complete opposite.
 
2013-07-22 06:23:39 AM  
Late to the party but first off let me say fark both parties. Neither really does a good job of doing what is in the best interest of the country. Sure the Republicans make the Democrats look OK by being against brown people, women, the poor, and science but the Democrats have only done a slightly better job of not being useless. As for me, it's hard to define myself exactly to one mindset or another.

Mostly I do what makes sense and since I love science and don't believe in religion that makes it easier.


Pro choice because I believe in the freedom to do with your own body as you see fit.

Same for drugs to a point. Banning both abortion and drugs won't stop humans from doing them and society is not served with so many people locked up in prison.

Which brings me to my next point. How can you not believe in social services and be for prisons that provide all these things?


Granted, prison isn't a nice place to be (according to the tv), but our prisons have become a dumping ground for druggies and the mentally ill. We can't have better access to healthcare though because socialism.

Anyway, I don't believe in god but I do believe in the idea we need to help each other reach our full potential and be nicer to each other. It's what dinosaur riding Jesus would of wanted.
 
2013-07-22 06:24:41 AM  
No one had to convince me of anything. My inherent altruism and concern for my fellow human beings has always driven me to whatever side you think fits those traits. I could give a rats ass what political leanings you have. If you chose to help me in ensuring the betterment and well-being of the people as a whole? I'm on your side. If not, well, don't expect to see me at any of your conventions. If that makes me a liberal, so be it.
 
2013-07-22 06:27:10 AM  

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


This. I went from liberal to democratic socialist.
 
2013-07-22 06:28:21 AM  

randomjsa: Few people will fundamentally change their political mind set on things.


I did/have.
 
2013-07-22 06:29:41 AM  

Whiskey Pete: If you align yourself with the current GOP you are either incredibly stupid, mentally ill or both.


or people are voting out of inertia.  there's also a lot of willing blindness among rank and file Republican voters.  they believe they're voting for a party of smaller government and honorable people who just want to make the country a better place.
 
2013-07-22 06:32:27 AM  

Weaver95: Whiskey Pete: If you align yourself with the current GOP you are either incredibly stupid, mentally ill or both.

or people are voting out of inertia.  there's also a lot of willing blindness among rank and file Republican voters.  they believe they're voting for a party of smaller government and honorable people who just want to make the country a better place.


Kinetic voting habits, the GOP banks on it.
 
2013-07-22 06:38:06 AM  
To answer the original question, yes.  Newt Gingrich convinced me to become a liberal. I never looked back.
 
2013-07-22 06:38:07 AM  
Dunno if it was truly a conservative/liberal thing but I had my viewpoint on the Death Penalty turned around by a specific well-argued post back in the Usenet days.  Its one of the few things I'm "off the reservation" with in respect to my typical fellow lib.
 
2013-07-22 06:43:07 AM  
When I was in high school, I didn't have well-formed political ideas or strong opinions on politics. But I did Speech & Debate Club, and often argued for conservative positions in that context simply because they were simpler arguments to make and easy t appeal to outrage and emotion.  I went to an all-boys private high school that was pretty white, some of my friends were hardcore Republicans, so I was exposed to those ideas and not as much the other side.

Then I went off to college and started actually thinking critically on my own about issues, and gradually became much more liberal. Spending a decade in NYC and being exposed to, and becoming comfortable with, all manner of diversity certainly helped in this process.
 
2013-07-22 06:44:58 AM  
If anything, I've become more liberal as I've grown older and learn more... I never would have been considered "conservative" by any stretch of the imagination, to be honest.

Funnily enough, it's the words and actions of conservatives and Republicans that have made me more liberal in the last decade or so.

There was a time, though, when I would have voted for moderate Republicans at the local and state level here in MA, but that time has long since disappeared...
 
2013-07-22 06:50:47 AM  

Stile4aly: It would be unfair to say that Bush convinced me to become a liberal.  It would be more accurate to say that the majority of the Republican party during the early 2000s convinced me.

I voted for Dole in 1996 (that's how conservative I was) and Bush in 2000.  Didn't vote in 2004.  Been the libbiest lib who ever libbed since.



Sounds like me. I registered in 1978 and voted Republican in state and Federal elections right up to 1992. I was disappointed in George Bush Sr after his first term and voted independent that election, then reluctantly voted for Clinton in 1996. After that, however, I'd say the Republican party left me; Gingrich's "Contract with America", the grandstanding with the Federal shutdown, and the impeachment of Clinton for trivial, personal reasons soured me on the Republicans, and they've only gotten worse since then.
 
2013-07-22 06:58:34 AM  

themindiswatching: The problem is that of education. In 2012, 4.5% of people with bachelor's degrees were unemployed. I'm for making public universities free, myself.


or maybe the problem is that so many people finish high-school without the ability to read and write?
 
2013-07-22 07:01:35 AM  

the opposite of charity is justice: Dunno if it was truly a conservative/liberal thing but I had my viewpoint on the Death Penalty turned around by a specific well-argued post back in the Usenet days.  Its one of the few things I'm "off the reservation" with in respect to my typical fellow lib.


Death Penalty creates angry ghosts. That's why there were so many school shootings right after that clown outfit mass murderer was executed.
 
2013-07-22 07:02:10 AM  
Yeah,the Republican party and their constant need to force Jesus down my throat caused my switch.
 
2013-07-22 07:04:52 AM  

Weaver95: I used to be hard core right wing christian conservative.  it wasn't 'one thing' that convinced me to change...unless that 'one thing' was several prominent conservatives.  it was more of a process.  lies and contradictions piles up so high and so far that I simply could not ignore the evidence any longer.  everything I'd been told was a lie.  church leaders were lying to me about their greed and lust.  Republican leaders dragged us into a war on a whim, then lied about the causes.  Corporate america sold us out for $50 and a bag of cheetos.  Conservatives weren't 'small government', they just wanted the government to control certain people and activities.  And there was simply no reason, logical or scientific, to keep cannabis illegal.  Eventually all those lies, contradictions and paradoxes added up to something I couldn't ignore.  and once I'd accepted that the GOP was lying to me....the rest sort of fell into place.


Weaver95: of course, now I"m a moderate 'liberal' democrat and semi-out of the broom closet as a pagan.  so yeah, I went from hard core right wing conservative christian Republican to damn near complete opposite.


I remember when I started posting on the site in early 2004 - I was a very pro-war libertarian.  I find it interesting that there's a measurable movement, even if it's only 5-10% of the population, moving in the opposite direction of the old Churchill "no heart/no brain" axiom.

I also nearly wipe out my keyboard every time I see someone relatively new to the site label you as a liberal.

/it's like watching that kid at Historicon this weekend ask why 40k had "space elves and space orcs" but no "space dwarves"
 
2013-07-22 07:15:29 AM  

sn82: The theory of small government and not spending as much as democrats do.


The Republicans claim to be small government and they claim to spend less.

But that's not true.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/02/chart-day-republican-vs - democratic-spending">http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/02/ch art-day-republican-vs- democratic-spending
 
2013-07-22 07:17:30 AM  

Weaver95: randomjsa: Few people will fundamentally change their political mind set on things.

I did/have.


I did as well - changed from conservative to liberal 'round about the Gingrich years.
 
2013-07-22 07:30:38 AM  
i.huffpost.com

NOPE
 
2013-07-22 07:37:06 AM  
Been a liberal ever since my parents told me that only Racists vote for Republicans. This has been proven true for the rest of my life, and I have seen no reason to entertain any changes in philosophy
 
2013-07-22 07:37:40 AM  

Abacus9: sn82: make me some tea: sn82: I was a democrat until I met my ex several years ago. Then he told me more about republican and it made sense. I'm still kind of in the middle of the two parties but am more to the right than in the past. I still mostly vote for the right candidate versus voting for which party they're affiliated with.

As an ex-conservatve, what "made sense" to you specifically?

The theory of small government and not spending as much as democrats do.

If you think conservatives care about small government and less spending, perhaps you don't remember GWB? Starting unnecessary wars, greatly expanding the power of government under the Patriot Act, Defense of Marriage and all that?


Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

syrynxx: The US government has no more right to force me to buy 3rd-party health insurance than it does to force me to buy ketchup or soup or footwear. It certainly doesn't have the authority to penalize me for not buying a commercial product.

You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?


The law does not require you to own a car.
 
2013-07-22 07:39:57 AM  

Rincewind53: But you do have to have health care (literally everyone will incur a hospital bill in their lifetime). And someone has to pay for it. So it's either going to be the government and therefore your fellow taxpayers, or it's going to be you.


Thing is when you budget, save and plan your life around certain events, doing the responsible thing and you get rewarded by having to pay for the healthcare of people who chose not to.

I was a raving, gas on fire liberal through college and a few years afterward.  After I started actually working 65 hrs a week to get out of college debt, I started to ask myself why the fark do I work when others sloth and enjoy the same life?  I lived in a shiatty apartment, drove a beater and worked a horrible job.  i once had to loan $500 from a family member to pay some bills and they didn't have much money themselves but they were willing to do it because family.

The thought of my needs imposing a debt on someone else struck a chord.  To this day, I cant understand why it is greedy to keep what you've put your blood, sweat and most preciously, time into earning but it is not greedy to sloth and expect a cut from someone who does.
 
2013-07-22 07:40:10 AM  

SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?


It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.
 
hej
2013-07-22 07:41:01 AM  
I started off pretty liberal.  Then I found Fark and decided it was best to be conservative.
 
2013-07-22 07:41:59 AM  
when i was in college in 2001 i considered myself a republican although i didn't really follow politics.  i thought "yeah i like small government and i don't like high taxes and i don't think lazy unemployed people should get welfare."  what can i say, i was young and stupid.  i also hated al gore (and still do) and would have voted for bush (or mccain) in 2000 if i had bothered to vote in that election.  i told one of my friends that was a republican and he outright laughed at me and said "no you're not!" and proceeded to explain to me that my actual politics were strongly liberal and my understanding of republican ideology was very flawed.  i thought republicans believed in being fiscally conservative and supporting mainstream america by helping small business.  that makes me laugh now.  although it wasn't until the political aftermath of 9/11 that i really began to realize how destructive and selfish republican politics are.

conservatives like to joke that college kids are all liberal until they graduate and get a job and start paying taxes, then they become conservative.  but for me it was the exact opposite.  once i got out of school and started living on my own and actually paying attention to politics and the government, i was embarrassed to think i ever thought i was conservative.  i am very liberal and i'm only getting more liberal the older i get.
 
2013-07-22 07:43:15 AM  
Also I guess I didn't answer the original question. Yes. My best friend is a bisexual female who leans towards the ladies. So when I think about gay rights I think about her happiness and where as I never really had an opinion about guys or transsexuals I do now. So now I am strongly in favor of treating people well regardless of their sex, race, sexual orientation, etc.


Also the Bush administration influenced my thoughts on war. Mainly because six thousands Americans died for two needless wars, not to mention the thousands of brown people who were also affected. Of course it took me a while to get to that point. Admittedly I was fascinated when we started bombing Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq made for great tv. I was younger then though, so I guess I am getting more "liberal" as I age.
 
2013-07-22 07:46:27 AM  
Yes, I have been convinced to vote for Democrats and Republicans many times.
 
2013-07-22 07:51:01 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.


Who argues that? Pretty absurd notion.
 
2013-07-22 07:52:01 AM  
I got more conservative in my 20's and was appalled by the downward spiral of the ghetto culture in NYC. I always hated religious conservatives and was liberal on most social issues. It was seeing the decline of poor neighborhoods in NY in the 80s and 90s that made me think that it (the Welfare State, Affirmative Action, most of the War on Poverty, etc) just wasn't working and was making things worse. Still, my attitudes were more Libertarian than Conservative. My big conundrum was knowing that Conservatives wanted to just trash Welfare, Affirmative Action, etc, and replace it with nothing, and ignore that there was any sort of problem to begin with, which wasn't the solution either. So you had folks who thought poor people should just figure it out on their own and suffer if they can't vs folks who want to throw money at the problem and pretend its solved. I voted for several Republicans, mostly out of protest, but this whole vaguely anti-liberal feeling I had collapsed as soon as we started doing stupid things in Afghanistan and Iraq and the Christians went from asshole to farking complete shartheads.
 
2013-07-22 07:56:18 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.


No, it's not.

I can entertain the possibility that Gore took those memos a little more seriously and thwarted the attack, but bin Laden didn't give a shiat which letter came after our president's name.
 
2013-07-22 07:59:05 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: AverageAmericanGuy: SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.

Who argues that? Pretty absurd notion.


It's pretty common. It's ridiculous, but common.

Some people don't have their heads on straight.

Hell, some people think the government purposefully detonated explosives to demolish the WTC.
 
2013-07-22 08:00:10 AM  
I think it's cute that the folks who think it's just wrong that they have to contribute to public assistance have no problem with federally subsidized home loans and student loans and pumping money into failing industries. They probably don't even understand that the roads they are driving on were paid for by other people.
 
2013-07-22 08:01:01 AM  
The older I've gotten the more I've realized that both parties are completely f*cked
 
2013-07-22 08:01:38 AM  
I was a registered Republican from about 1991 - 98. Then they pulled their impeachment stunt, I voted for Al Gore, and they (the GOP) have only gotten crazier. I basically went from "middle of the road but leans right" to "still middle of the road but is now considered a dirty socialist".

So yes, one party converted me, but not the way they wanted to.
 
2013-07-22 08:03:22 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: The answer to the health care dilemma is pretty simple:

National single payer system - Medicare for everyone

Premiums paid out of taxes at a progressive rate like income taxes (which I'd argue should be higher at the upper income levels as well)

A panel of doctors and experts sets the reimbursement costs at a fair level that lets medical facilities keep the doors open but still minimize costs, adjustments are made every couple years, maybe with a codified COLA adjustment in-between

All medical facilities are required by law to accept the government insurance

All doctors and medical facilities are required by law to perform any treatment to preserve life and quality of life for any patient who comes through the doors.  Appropriate exceptions can be made for the elderly for whom extreme measures would just slightly postpone death by natural causes.

Birth control, vasectomies, and other treatments that serve to save money in the long run would be covered.

Reconstructive plastic surgery (after burns, traumatic injuries, or to address defects such as hare lips) would be covered.

Vanity treatments like breast implants, calf implants, penis enlargements, etc, would have to come out of the patient's pocket


There's one flaw in your plan (well, there's tons of flaws in your plan, but there's one overarching flaw in your plan) ... the rest of the country overwhelming disagrees with you.
 
2013-07-22 08:03:44 AM  
Bisexual who might just want to get married someday. Take a guess.
 
2013-07-22 08:04:18 AM  
I'm actually thoroughly convinced that Fark did.

Still trying to find an explanation, but yeah I've made a pretty big move from the right to the center right and even *gasp* to the center since I've been on here. Fark is the best guess I've got given other variables. Maybe it was the conservatives going bugnuts, maybe it was the fact that trolling Fark exposed me to it, it'll be awhile before i figure it out. If ever.

So yeah, go Fark!
 
2013-07-22 08:05:55 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.


Yeah, Muslims never behave like animals when the President is a liberal.
 
2013-07-22 08:06:23 AM  

CommieTaoist: The older I get, the more liberal I get.


Yeah. I started off far more conservative (and evangelical). I'm now a happily agnostic liberal!
 
2013-07-22 08:07:42 AM  

iq_in_binary: I'm actually thoroughly convinced that Fark did.



So the method of insulting you until you agree with them works?
 
2013-07-22 08:09:19 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: The older I've gotten the more I've realized that both parties are completely f*cked


I'm a liberal but I don't identify as a Democrat. I mostly align with the Green Party with the major exception to their international policy and their UN policy.
 
2013-07-22 08:09:28 AM  

enderthexenocide: when i was in college in 2001 i considered myself a republican although i didn't really follow politics.  i thought "yeah i like small government and i don't like high taxes and i don't think lazy unemployed people should get welfare."  what can i say, i was young and stupid.  i also hated al gore (and still do) and would have voted for bush (or mccain) in 2000 if i had bothered to vote in that election.  i told one of my friends that was a republican and he outright laughed at me and said "no you're not!" and proceeded to explain to me that my actual politics were strongly liberal and my understanding of republican ideology was very flawed.  i thought republicans believed in being fiscally conservative and supporting mainstream america by helping small business.  that makes me laugh now.  although it wasn't until the political aftermath of 9/11 that i really began to realize how destructive and selfish republican politics are.

conservatives like to joke that college kids are all liberal until they graduate and get a job and start paying taxes, then they become conservative.  but for me it was the exact opposite.  once i got out of school and started living on my own and actually paying attention to politics and the government, i was embarrassed to think i ever thought i was conservative.  i am very liberal and i'm only getting more liberal the older i get.


People in the Baby Boomer generation have tended to fall into the "get more conservative as they get older" category, much like their parents and grandparents. Gen X is sort of 50/50 right now. Millenials appear to be growing more liberal as they reach their 20s and 30s.

I think it's a function of "what did you have when you were growing up?" If you grew up in a time of economic hardship and you had to work hard to get ahead, you tend to feel like everyone should have been able to do what you did and you get annoyed with those who don't earn their place. If you grew up in a time of prosperity and then experienced a downgrade in your 20s and 30s because you couldn't find a good job, you're more likely to be empathetic to others.

I expect that Millenials and their children are going to be far more liberal in their middle age than the Baby Boomers or Gen Xers have been.

That may be one of the reasons that liberalism/conservatism tend to be the endpoints of a cultural pendulum swing -- it takes about 3-4 generations for cultural attitudes to shift.
 
2013-07-22 08:09:54 AM  

Wendy's Chili: AverageAmericanGuy: SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.

No, it's not.

I can entertain the possibility that Gore took those memos a little more seriously and thwarted the attack, but bin Laden didn't give a shiat which letter came after our president's name.


As seriously as Obama and Hillary took the memos saying "Our embassy is almost completely defenseless and we need better security" in the lead up to our Ambassador being killed in Benghazi?
 
2013-07-22 08:09:57 AM  

SunsetLament: TuteTibiImperes: The answer to the health care dilemma is pretty simple:

National single payer system - Medicare for everyone

Premiums paid out of taxes at a progressive rate like income taxes (which I'd argue should be higher at the upper income levels as well)

A panel of doctors and experts sets the reimbursement costs at a fair level that lets medical facilities keep the doors open but still minimize costs, adjustments are made every couple years, maybe with a codified COLA adjustment in-between

All medical facilities are required by law to accept the government insurance

All doctors and medical facilities are required by law to perform any treatment to preserve life and quality of life for any patient who comes through the doors.  Appropriate exceptions can be made for the elderly for whom extreme measures would just slightly postpone death by natural causes.

Birth control, vasectomies, and other treatments that serve to save money in the long run would be covered.

Reconstructive plastic surgery (after burns, traumatic injuries, or to address defects such as hare lips) would be covered.

Vanity treatments like breast implants, calf implants, penis enlargements, etc, would have to come out of the patient's pocket

There's one flaw in your plan (well, there's tons of flaws in your plan, but there's one overarching flaw in your plan) ... the rest of the country overwhelming disagrees with you.


Umm, no, single payer was the biggest supported health care option during that debate.

So yeah, technically right, but the people wanted universal, they got the Republican shiatty version instead.]

If anybody deserves credit for this iteration having its failings, it's people like you who have fully trained yourself to love suppressing the gag reflexes to fully service hegemony cock. But keep farking that textbook chicken.
 
2013-07-22 08:11:49 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: I think it's cute that the folks who think it's just wrong that they have to contribute to public assistance have no problem with federally subsidized home loans and student loans and pumping money into failing industries. They probably don't even understand that the roads they are driving on were paid for by other people.


I have an intern just like this. Self-Professed Republican, Birches endlessly about taxes taken out of his paycheck, then in the same breath complains about interests rates going up for student loans.
 
2013-07-22 08:12:23 AM  

SunsetLament: There's one flaw in your plan (well, there's tons of flaws in your plan, but there's one overarching flaw in your plan) ... the rest of the country overwhelming disagrees with you.


Never underestimate the ability of the US people to act against their own interests.
 
2013-07-22 08:12:25 AM  
I still vote democrat, but I'm no longer an ardent supporter. I see conservatives as exponentially worse, but I don't feel democrats have answers either, at least they aren't Republicans.
 
2013-07-22 08:12:27 AM  
Seeing as how I'm a capitalist/communist/liberal/consevative I'm getting a kick....

/honestly, you can't pigeonhole me.
 
2013-07-22 08:13:47 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: iq_in_binary: I'm actually thoroughly convinced that Fark did.


So the method of insulting you until you agree with them works?


Huh?

Hell I just read headlines dude, for the most part. It's the news they're making that pissed me off, not the half assed trolls that couldn't lyrically beat themselves out of a paper bag if they had to.

For people who I have any respect for, trolling means something, for people like you, it's like a kindergarten kid throwing dirt. You just ignore it, they have no idea what they're talking about anyway.
 
2013-07-22 08:15:19 AM  
My major issue is the growing police state. I'm against it and both major parties are for it. If we want to continue to be free to argue about taxes, guns, abortions, gay marriage, what countries to invade, immigration, etc. We need to stop the madness going on with the NSA and the militarization of the police. If it continues, soon we are not going to have any say in our politics.  I don't know which party will be in charge in the end.
 
2013-07-22 08:15:45 AM  
Abacus9:
You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?

yeah but but but but that's a STATE law.  Not valid in VT!
 
2013-07-22 08:15:49 AM  

feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: make me some tea: feckingmorons: I'd settle for the common mediocre.

What does that even mean?

I have no idea, this is a political discussion that started on TF.

Nice copout.

It is nonsense. What do you want it to mean.

This is why I don't like 'serious' political threads in TFD. Everyone says conservatives are terrible, complete arseholes, hate poor people, yet I'm a conservative and I don't think I'm terrible, I don't think I hate poor people. I don't think I'm an arsehole. I'm kind and helpful whenever I can be. I try to be patient and understanding of other's views and opinions, yet I'm unjustly vilified simply because of my political views and who I vote for. They don't let me run the Republican party, if they did it would be different, but I let my elected officials know my thoughts and I help others and my community as best I can.


Now you know how Muslims feel.
 
2013-07-22 08:18:12 AM  

SunsetLament: Wendy's Chili: AverageAmericanGuy: SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.

No, it's not.

I can entertain the possibility that Gore took those memos a little more seriously and thwarted the attack, but bin Laden didn't give a shiat which letter came after our president's name.

As seriously as Obama and Hillary took the memos saying "Our embassy is almost completely defenseless and we need better security" in the lead up to our Ambassador being killed in Benghazi?


Dude, Benghazi is never going to be a thing. It's over.

Attempting to compare it to Bush's failures isn't helping your cause.
 
2013-07-22 08:19:06 AM  
Conservatives have convinced me to change from being conservative to liberal.

/or maybe it was just the definition of 'conservative' that changed.
 
2013-07-22 08:20:14 AM  
The Fark politics tab has convinced me to be apolitical.
 
2013-07-22 08:21:02 AM  

Ender's: I am now more conservative with hair and more liberal with who I share that story with.


except that what you just describe as policy isn't really 'conservative'

or is that the joke?  playing on how 'conservatives' don't even know that many of their policy positions aren't?
 
2013-07-22 08:21:29 AM  

iq_in_binary: Huh?

Hell I just read headlines dude, for the most part. It's the news they're making that pissed me off, not the half assed trolls that couldn't lyrically beat themselves out of a paper bag if they had to.

For people who I have any respect for, trolling means something, for people like you, it's like a kindergarten kid throwing dirt. You just ignore it, they have no idea what they're talking about anyway.


Heh, that was more of a poke at the people of Fark. Seems like political debate is more to insult as many people as possible
 
2013-07-22 08:23:12 AM  
I used to be moderately conservative. Now, I am moderately liberal. I thought I would become more conservative as I got older, but conservatism changed.
 
2013-07-22 08:23:19 AM  
I didn't care about the parties in the 1980s. In the 90s, Republicans started looking worse to me. But it wasn't until the invasion of Iraq that I decided to join the Democrats to oppose the Bush Administration. Course, I found them rather ineffective at that, and I still wonder why Bush and Cheney aren't in prison. But the alternative is unthinkable. Republicans now, both nationally and in states that they fully control, are hellbent on inflicting as much pain and suffering as they can. For people who claim to be Chistian, they betray everything Christ ever taught.
 
2013-07-22 08:23:58 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: SunsetLament: Wendy's Chili: AverageAmericanGuy: SunsetLament: Would Gore or Kerry have spent less?

It's arguable that if Gore were elected in 2000, that Al Qaeda wouldn't have seen the need to attack us in the first place.

No, it's not.

I can entertain the possibility that Gore took those memos a little more seriously and thwarted the attack, but bin Laden didn't give a shiat which letter came after our president's name.

As seriously as Obama and Hillary took the memos saying "Our embassy is almost completely defenseless and we need better security" in the lead up to our Ambassador being killed in Benghazi?

Dude, Benghazi is never going to be a thing. It's over.

Attempting to compare it to Bush's failures isn't helping your cause.


The Benghazi shiat stirrers are still jerking off over the Gulf of Tonkin incident. They don't understand that the rest of the country moved on from the issue long ago.
 
2013-07-22 08:28:21 AM  
I leaned conservative in the 80's and 90's. Then Tom DeLay, Bush & Cheney, Iraq, the California Energy Crisis and a hundred other scandals woke me up and made me a lot more sensible and aware.

Now I'm the biggest libby-lib of them all.
 
2013-07-22 08:29:01 AM  
I used to be a conservative. I even listened to Rush daily. Then I began reading, and meeting more people. I found out most of what I believed was bullshiat. Every assumption I had about our government turned out to be based on nothing more than talking points. My friends on facebook who were conservative reposted the most banal and inaccurate foolishness, and they drove me away from the surety I had felt with my views.
Then I read The Authoritarians, and from it I learned where my views were coming from. I was quite ashamed to find that so much of what I felt was based on fear. So, I guess now I'm a liberal.
 
2013-07-22 08:29:11 AM  
I like to think I've changed a few minds in the Zimmerman threads.
 
2013-07-22 08:29:27 AM  
I was, from 2003~2008, a Republican Conservative.

During this time period, I made several stupid mistakes that I'm still paying for.

I credit talk radio swinging me to conservatism, and then Fark.com and the lack of talk radio swinging me back.

Now I'm the type of person to randomly break out into "Do you hear the people sing", consider co-ops and credit unions, and worry about supporting the weakest.

"You can always tell the quality of the person by how they treat those in their power."

One of my phrases I've said repeatedly, "While we can always find and steer a middle passage betwixt the two, I would always prefer to be financially poor but morally rich, than morally poor and financially rich."
 
2013-07-22 08:33:49 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: I like to think I've changed a few minds in the Zimmerman threads.


Real conservatism really shouldn't be saddled with parochial racism.
 
2013-07-22 08:41:23 AM  
I came to this site as a hardcore conservative with "libertarian" leanings. Thanks to people on this site who can actually debate, discuss, and cite.... I got over it.

Now I find myself unable to be classified on the horribly skewed spectrum that is US politics; it don't go left enough.
 
2013-07-22 08:42:47 AM  
The Bush administration, religious right, and bile-spewing right wing more than convinced me that conservatism in America was not for me.
 
2013-07-22 08:43:59 AM  
I'm a liberal, but I subscribe to Austrian economics.  I'm not sure how I got here, but that's where I am.
 
2013-07-22 08:44:49 AM  
In high school I was very Republican mostly due to parental influences.  I voted for Engler, he won, and then saw immediately how it started affecting people who I met in college. I have never met a more determined, "bootstrappy" bunch trying to put themselves through school and how Republican directives hurt their progress.  That was my big switch.

Further on, when I found Jesus and went to a very conservative church, it further cemented by left wing beliefs and after 4 churches, I found one that's not insane.
 
2013-07-22 08:47:44 AM  
Sarah Palin convinced me to stop calling myself a moderate republican.
I'm a liberal now.


/thanks, Sarah
 
2013-07-22 08:48:53 AM  
Politics are just a means to enact policy.  What are the issues you personally want to see addressed through policy?

If you understand for example that CO2 contributes to global warming and that there are several man-made origins of CO2 then you would look to elect politicians who will work to limit these sources once in office.

If you have spent some time utilizing & thinking about the American health care system with it's many folks left uncovered and it's soring costs year after year then you would look to elect politicians who will work to do something about this problem.

Too many folks approach politics like a team sport through a tribal prism.  It's unhealthy for the body politic as a whole.  They choose sides and THEN look to their side to inform them about the issues, as illogical as that information may be.
 
2013-07-22 08:48:59 AM  

MattStafford: I'm a liberal, but I subscribe to Austrian economics.  I'm not sure how I got here, but that's where I am.


I can honestly say I've never seen the pendulum swing that way. Socially liberal and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Hayek follower, you betcha.

But socially liberal and Austrian school? Man, that seems pretty rare.
 
2013-07-22 08:52:33 AM  
No.

And so long as conservative ideology remains mired with Flat Earthers, climate-change-deniers, homophobes, racists and misogynists, I don't think I'll ever identify as a conservative. A conservationist, sure. But not conservative.
 
2013-07-22 08:57:46 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: MattStafford: I'm a liberal, but I subscribe to Austrian economics.  I'm not sure how I got here, but that's where I am.

I can honestly say I've never seen the pendulum swing that way. Socially liberal and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Hayek follower, you betcha.

But socially liberal and Austrian school? Man, that seems pretty rare.


Socially Liberal and a liking for surfing, drinking beer, and Aussie Rules Football....  I don't see anything too strange about that.
 
2013-07-22 08:58:07 AM  

feckingmorons: Eventually you run out of other people's money.


Well, let's start by making the billionaires and corporations (who currently pay zero taxes) start paying their fair share instead, and see how long until they run out of money, okay?
 
2013-07-22 09:01:04 AM  
#1 Don't put your dick in crazy.
 
2013-07-22 09:06:09 AM  

grxymkjbn: feckingmorons: Eventually you run out of other people's money.

Well, let's start by making the billionaires and corporations (who currently pay zero taxes) start paying their fair share instead, and see how long until they run out of money, okay?




Like Social Security?
 
2013-07-22 09:12:20 AM  
No, no one in particular. But I've gotten far more liberal as I've aged and seen how evil conservatism as a political philosophy is.
 
2013-07-22 09:14:10 AM  
FuturePastNow:  But I've gotten far somewhat more liberal as I've aged and seen how evil stupid conservatism as a political philosophy is.

Modified slightly for myself.
 
2013-07-22 09:17:18 AM  
If you're looking for an example of someone whose opinion has changed due to online discussion, I am one.

I used to be a right-wing, fascist Libertarian. I was young and impressionable, and all of the forums I frequented were filled with people who were absolutely certain that Ron Paul was going to be President and that the Duopoly was going to come crashing down any second now. I wanted to fit in with the group, so I let those views rub off on me.

Nowadays, I'd describe myself as left of center (in the US- here in Canada, I'm probably closer to the center). My views changed when other posters had the courage to stand up to the hardcore Libertarians who dominated the conversation and challenge their views. Also, I started going to sites with a more diverse user base, such as Fark. These two factors- combined with the fact that I grew a little older and learned not to take everything I heard at face value- led me to open my eyes and do some research of my own. I came to the conclusion that Libertarianism, while usually well-meaning and not without a few good ideas, cannot form a suitable government for a modern society. I also found out what a farce the Austrian School of economics is, and today my views on economics are more in the style of Keynes. As my knowledge has increased, I have more or less completely abandoned my former beliefs.

Anybody who tells you that the thing people fear the most is death or public speaking is lying. People fear change more than anything else. Perhaps it's because our simple minds prefer to see things in simple, "black & white", "I'm right, you're wrong" terms, rather than shades of grey. Perhaps it's because there is a stigma associated with someone who changes their mind that brands them as an unreliable flip-flopper. Perhaps it's because you have so much invested in the identity you've established for yourself, and you don't want to see that facade crumble before your eyes. Perhaps it's all of the above. From my experience, my conclusion after all of this is that I wish more people were more open to changing their minds, and that doing so didn't involve as much suffering and pain and turmoil and fear.

I think the world would be a much better place if that was the case.
 
2013-07-22 09:19:06 AM  
Nope.  See, *I* haven't really changed my philosophy (ies) over the years.  The parties sure have though.  The conservatives are getting more sandy vagina'ed and totally derpistan, the libbies are getting libbier to attempt to counteract the conservative derp.

I've always been a moderate conservative.  Now apparently I'm a flaming libbby lib lib libbiest lib that ever libbed because I don't think poor people should suffer, people in general shouldn't starve, everyone should be able to afford to live a decent life, even if they need a little help to do so, women should be in charge of their own bodies, and jesus doesn't have shiat all to do with politics so shut the fark up about jesus.

/libbly libber lib lib
//apparently
 
2013-07-22 09:24:59 AM  
The choice is between derp and psycho babble. Both sides have convinced me not to be anything.
 
2013-07-22 09:28:49 AM  
I was a liberal until I visited Fark and realized that liberals are wrong about everything always.
 
2013-07-22 09:34:43 AM  
I had conservative economic leanings as a chils but when I reached 8th grade I stopped being a selfish child.
 
2013-07-22 09:47:43 AM  
I've been told by several of my Tea Party supporting friends that I am much too smart to be a dirty pinko Commie socialist.
 
2013-07-22 09:48:49 AM  

djRykoSuave: I had conservative economic leanings as a chils but when I reached 8th grade I stopped being a selfish child.


Conservatism's selfishness is no less base/childish than liberalism's envy.
 
2013-07-22 09:48:57 AM  
No one person, no, but I have changed a lot.  Somehow I managed to emerge from college a staunch conservative, since then my life experience, and more importantly the struggles of others I've seen have changed me into pretty much a left winger, except on a few issues.
 
2013-07-22 09:52:04 AM  

GoldSpider: djRykoSuave: I had conservative economic leanings as a chils but when I reached 8th grade I stopped being a selfish child.

Conservatism's selfishness is no less base/childish than liberalism's envy.


Yeah, us liberals are all about jealously pillaging the rich.

/rolls eyes
 
2013-07-22 09:57:17 AM  
Unlike conservatives I support the philosophy of Jesus.
 
2013-07-22 10:04:04 AM  

Serious Black: Yeah, us liberals are all about jealously pillaging the rich.


If you think "your side" has overcome any of humanity's base instincts, you're not helping.
 
2013-07-22 10:04:16 AM  

Stranded On The Planet Dumbass: Unlike conservatives I support the philosophy of Jesus.


Hey, another fan of the real Jesus and what he actually said, not some obscure verses from old Jewish law.

/I'm a red letter Christian Buddhist agnostic
 
2013-07-22 10:09:33 AM  
Absolutely not.  I'm a liberal because it matches how I believe, what I think, how I feel things should be, not because someone or some people talked me into it.  Wouldn't say much for my intelligence if I could be easily swayed from one side to the next.  In any event, absolutely nothing on this Earth, or even in the cosmos above it, could EVER persuade me to become a conservative/Republican.  I have too much respect for myself as an educated woman to align myself with those clowns.
 
2013-07-22 10:10:42 AM  

GoldSpider: Serious Black: Yeah, us liberals are all about jealously pillaging the rich.

If you think "your side" has overcome any of humanity's base instincts, you're not helping.


One of humanity's greatest base instincts is cooperation. We've been cooperating ever since we were hunter-gatherers, working together to kill enormous animals and sharing the bounty from these successful hunts. I hope we never overcome the instinct that mutual interest is how we truly express self-interest.
 
2013-07-22 10:12:58 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: feckingmorons: So people should have the choice to save up their own money, or buy insurance. I think you're an idiot if you don't buy insurance, but me getting superAIDS isn't going to make the guy next door have to replace his left front fender.

The point is that if a person does  not buy healthcare, they are then forcing the rest of us to subsidize their health care. That is, as a taxpayer, I will pay  more money in both health care premiums and taxes, in order to pay for the person with no health insurance who has to go to the emergency room to get primary medical care.

Healthcare and insurance are not the same thing. The emergency room doesn't actually provide primary care. If want to go in to have your blood pressure checked they will make you wait until everyone with an actual complaint or medical problem has been seen. You'll probably leave in that week or two. People lie to make it seem like their medical problems are worse so they can be seen quicker. Want a pregnancy test, say you have belly pain. What your PID treated, say you're spotting. People do it all the time. They do it because they don't want to pay at all. They are scamming the system. There will always be 5-10% who will do that. I lived this for almost two decades.

There are primary care clinics for the uninsured and for the destitute. There are social service agencies that will refer patients to them. Most people in the US on TFD could pick up the phone and dial 211 right now and get a referral to a provider for a medical non-emergency.

Making everyone buy health insurance won't stop these people. There will always be people that lie to get benefits to which they are not entitled simply because they are thieves. Look at the NJ School Board members and employees who lied to get their kids free lunch.

There are people who feel no compunction about lying to get our tax money. Those are the taxes I don't like paying, the ones that go to people who lie and ch ...


There will always be some people who will lie.  I think you are right when you say it is a small number of people though, maybe 5 to 10 percent.  I don't want the larger percent of people who are honest, 90 percent or higher, who are honest, to be punished because of them.

I don't have as much of a problem with people lying to get seen quicker in the ER, as I do with doctors and clinics trying to scam the system for hundreds of thousands of tax payer money.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-10-19/medi ca id-fraud-money/50831614/1
 
2013-07-22 10:14:27 AM  
Yes. And the man who convinced me to be a liberal was George W. Bush.

/Raised neocon fundie Christian.
//Brain turned on junior year of high school
///just in time to "lolwut" the Patriot Act
 
2013-07-22 10:19:41 AM  

Spadababababababa Spadina Bus: My views changed when other posters had the courage to stand up to the hardcore Libertarians who dominated the conversation and challenge their views. Also, I started going to sites with a more diverse user base, such as Fark.


i1234.photobucket.com

Have you gotten a look at this thread?
 
2013-07-22 10:23:29 AM  
Never was a Republican, and never will be. Republicans are against unions, and that's basically my family's way of making a living. I used to walk in Labor Day parades with my dad and his whole local. They used to tell me how Republicans were anti-union and didn't want to help working people. When I became an adult, I looked into it on my own, and lo and behold, my dad was right.

When I was in the Air Force, I was surrounded by conservatism for the first time in my life, and I looked into libertarianism. I even joined the LP for a spell. But I gradually realized libertarians don't know how governments work and assume the worst in all people, so their solutions are basically, "F*ck you, got mine," writ large.

I also live in the conservative Midwest, where I see how short-sighted thinking and fearing change limit the huge potential for growth here. Mediocrity and conformity are praised where I live, and that's pretty much emblematic of American conservatism for me.
 
2013-07-22 10:27:14 AM  

nekom: Stranded On The Planet Dumbass: Unlike conservatives I support the philosophy of Jesus.Hey, another fan of the real Jesus and what he actually said, not some obscure verses from old Jewish law./I'm a red letter Christian Buddhist agnostic


Yup, I'm agnostic too. The hypocrisy of christian conservatives just slays me. I could see how a more truly "Christian" candidate could change the course of American history. He could call out the money changers, call for sacrifice to the benefit of the poor, replace military action with international aid, promote a concern for stewardship of the land for future generations, and promote tolerance and forgiveness and accepting people as they are.

The higher moral ground is obvious.
 
2013-07-22 10:27:45 AM  

angrymacface: Once I realized that conservatives are horribly selfish people, I realized I didn't want to be one.


Me too.

I used to say I wanted old, rich people monitoring our money and young, compassionate people making our laws. Then I saw what Reagan did and realized it wouldn't work to trust those old, rich people with ANYTHING. So I guess you could say Reagan made me turn liberal.
 
2013-07-22 10:38:03 AM  
Stranded On The Planet Dumbass:
Yup, I'm agnostic too. The hypocrisy of christian conservatives just slays me. I could see how a more truly "Christian" candidate could change the course of American history. He could call out the money changers, call for sacrifice to the benefit of the poor, replace military action with international aid, promote a concern for stewardship of the land for future generations, and promote tolerance and forgiveness and accepting people as they are.

The higher moral ground is obvious.


Who would Jesus bomb?  But you know Supply Side Jesus isn't the same person as actual Jesus.  Humility, love and compassion don't work well for conservatives, so they needed to redefine him.
 
2013-07-22 10:39:25 AM  
Moving away from a conservative hotbed made me realize how pants-on-head derpy they were. It's like being freed from a cult.
 
2013-07-22 10:40:44 AM  

verbaltoxin: Never was a Republican, and never will be. Republicans are against unions, and that's basically my family's way of making a living. I used to walk in Labor Day parades with my dad and his whole local. They used to tell me how Republicans were anti-union and didn't want to help working people. When I became an adult, I looked into it on my own, and lo and behold, my dad was right.

When I was in the Air Force, I was surrounded by conservatism for the first time in my life, and I looked into libertarianism. I even joined the LP for a spell. But I gradually realized libertarians don't know how governments work and assume the worst in all people, so their solutions are basically, "F*ck you, got mine," writ large.

I also live in the conservative Midwest, where I see how short-sighted thinking and fearing change limit the huge potential for growth here. Mediocrity and conformity are praised where I live, and that's pretty much emblematic of American conservatism for me.


I take your point on conservatives being anti-union, but I think it's a mistake to be 100% pro or anti union. Unions are necessary to maintain hard earned workers rights and maintain a standard of living for tradesmen, etc. Unions are also hotbeds of corruption and, when they become too strong can be counterproductive. Back in the early 80's I happened to be doing some work in a GM plant in Cincinnati that assembled Camaros & Firebirds. I was in awe of the amount of people doing nothing, standing around bullshiatting or sleeping in corners. it wasn't unusual for people come in at the start of their shift, clock in then go home and sleep until the came back to clock out. Abuses were rampant and nothing could be done because they were protected by the UAW.

They have their place and are important, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.
 
2013-07-22 10:41:16 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: TuteTibiImperes: The answer to the health care dilemma is pretty simple:

National single payer system - Medicare for everyone

Premiums paid out of taxes at a progressive rate like income taxes (which I'd argue should be higher at the upper income levels as well)

A panel of doctors and experts sets the reimbursement costs at a fair level that lets medical facilities keep the doors open but still minimize costs, adjustments are made every couple years, maybe with a codified COLA adjustment in-between

All medical facilities are required by law to accept the government insurance

All doctors and medical facilities are required by law to perform any treatment to preserve life and quality of life for any patient who comes through the doors.  Appropriate exceptions can be made for the elderly for whom extreme measures would just slightly postpone death by natural causes.

Birth control, vasectomies, and other treatments that serve to save money in the long run would be covered.

Reconstructive plastic surgery (after burns, traumatic injuries, or to address defects such as hare lips) would be covered.

Vanity treatments like breast implants, calf implants, penis enlargements, etc, would have to come out of the patient's pocket

I also should have mentioned, something has to be done about the pharmaceutical lobby.  I get that drugs are expensive to develop, but we push way too many pills on way too many people, and there is too much marketing overhead cost included in medicine.

Maybe we should fund pharmaceutical development federally at various Universities with the resultant medications becoming public domain and open to generic production from day one, maybe we should just ban all pharmaceutical marketing and put severe limits on how pharma sales-reps can interact with doctors, I'm open so suggestions there.


I support funding pharmaceutical development federally at various Universities  regardless of cost saving measures (although I think that would result in a serious cut in government spending.) No, the real reason I want to move this sort of thing into the public is that privatized drug development is bad science. Do you know that when drug companies develop drugs that turn out to have bad side effects, they don't have to report anything about their findings as long as they don't bring the drug to market? Some people might say, what's the big deal? They didn't take the drug to market, so no big deal." And you would be right if it weren't for one thing. Other drug companies may decide to test the same compound of chemicals. Since the FDA will have no record of the negative side effect Company A found, Company B can go ahead and make the same mistakes all over again. Why do we allow companies to do this?

We are protecting their cost to compete, even at the cost of human lives. The thinking goes, "Company A spent X dollars to reach the conclusion that they did, so it would be unfair to remove those costs for Company B." This model is bad for science; it's expensive at best; and it is fatal at worst.
 
2013-07-22 10:42:25 AM  

Serious Black: GoldSpider: Serious Black: Yeah, us liberals are all about jealously pillaging the rich.

If you think "your side" has overcome any of humanity's base instincts, you're not helping.

One of humanity's greatest base instincts is cooperation. We've been cooperating ever since we were hunter-gatherers, working together to kill enormous animals and sharing the bounty from these successful hunts. I hope we never overcome the instinct that mutual interest is how we truly express self-interest.


Call me cynical but I don't think we have an innate drive to cooperate. That's a behavior that still has to be tought on school. Before then, a child tends to either hoard toys, or cry because another child has a toy he wants.
 
2013-07-22 10:46:15 AM  

GoldSpider: Serious Black: GoldSpider: Serious Black: Yeah, us liberals are all about jealously pillaging the rich.

If you think "your side" has overcome any of humanity's base instincts, you're not helping.

One of humanity's greatest base instincts is cooperation. We've been cooperating ever since we were hunter-gatherers, working together to kill enormous animals and sharing the bounty from these successful hunts. I hope we never overcome the instinct that mutual interest is how we truly express self-interest.

Call me cynical but I don't think we have an innate drive to cooperate. That's a behavior that still has to be tought on school. Before then, a child tends to either hoard toys, or cry because another child has a toy he wants.


Okay. You're cynical.
 
2013-07-22 10:46:37 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: MattStafford: I'm a liberal, but I subscribe to Austrian economics.  I'm not sure how I got here, but that's where I am.

I can honestly say I've never seen the pendulum swing that way. Socially liberal and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Hayek follower, you betcha.

But socially liberal and Austrian school? Man, that seems pretty rare.


Seems like a pretty standard libertarian worldview.
 
2013-07-22 10:48:24 AM  

nekom: Stranded On The Planet Dumbass: Unlike conservatives I support the philosophy of Jesus.

Hey, another fan of the real Jesus and what he actually said, not some obscure verses from old Jewish law.

/I'm a red letter Christian Buddhist agnostic


Red letter agnostic here. Jesus was a pretty cool dude (or a pretty cool character).

I got slightly more conservative in college, due to the fact I used to be a complete pacifist, all war is sin, type of person. I have come to realize that sometimes wars are necessary, but I still think it should be an absolute last resort. So, I'm still pretty damn liberal. Abortion should be a right, euthanasia/assisted suicide should be legal, socialism/government can be a force for good if used correctly, etc. So yeah, I'm more liberal than either party still.
 
2013-07-22 10:50:06 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Popcorn Johnny: I like to think I've changed a few minds in the Zimmerman threads.

Real conservatism really shouldn't be saddled with parochial racism.


Right. It should be overarching, systemic racism. From the anti-Federalist's Three-Fifths Compromise to the Tea Party's voter ID laws, keeping down the black man has been the means and end of the "small government" wing of American politics.

AverageAmericanGuy: MattStafford: I'm a liberal, but I subscribe to Austrian economics.  I'm not sure how I got here, but that's where I am.

I can honestly say I've never seen the pendulum swing that way. Socially liberal and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Hayek follower, you betcha.

But socially liberal and Austrian school? Man, that seems pretty rare.


Hayek and Friedman weren't as batshiat as their modern disciples would lead you to believe. They even supported guaranteed minimum incomes.
 
2013-07-22 10:51:03 AM  

Arkanaut: AverageAmericanGuy: MattStafford: I'm a liberal, but I subscribe to Austrian economics.  I'm not sure how I got here, but that's where I am.

I can honestly say I've never seen the pendulum swing that way. Socially liberal and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Keynesian, sure. Socially conservative and Hayek follower, you betcha.

But socially liberal and Austrian school? Man, that seems pretty rare.

Seems like a pretty standard libertarian worldview.


Keynes was a pretty huge believer in free markets and capitalism, and his theory of countercyclical government spending grew out of the belief that people would overthrow capitalist systems if a giant depression upended the markets and left people starving and homeless with no hope of survival. He and Hayek were pretty similar ideologically speaking.
 
2013-07-22 10:51:14 AM  

GoldSpider: Serious Black: GoldSpider: Serious Black: Yeah, us liberals are all about jealously pillaging the rich.

If you think "your side" has overcome any of humanity's base instincts, you're not helping.

One of humanity's greatest base instincts is cooperation. We've been cooperating ever since we were hunter-gatherers, working together to kill enormous animals and sharing the bounty from these successful hunts. I hope we never overcome the instinct that mutual interest is how we truly express self-interest.

Call me cynical but I don't think we have an innate drive to cooperate. That's a behavior that still has to be tought on school. Before then, a child tends to either hoard toys, or cry because another child has a toy he wants.


That dynamic works a little different when your life is on the line. Day care is not a good analog for all human society I think.
 
2013-07-22 10:51:46 AM  
i was very conservative until about age 28.

i got better.

actually, i would be conservative right now if it wasn't for the freakish stupidity that the word conservative invokes these day.
 
2013-07-22 10:53:37 AM  
If you still call yourself a "conservative" after Dubya, the world would be better off without you.
 
2013-07-22 10:54:11 AM  

Wendy's Chili: Hayek and Friedman weren't as batshiat as their modern disciples would lead you to believe. They even supported guaranteed minimum incomes.


If we're going to talk economic theory, we need to consult the experts (VERY NSFW language)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT1AHDjzcsQ
 
2013-07-22 10:54:20 AM  
I considered myself a conservative until the rise of the Tea Party. I couldn't handle the cognitive dissonance it took to oppose stuff you championed weeks before.
 
2013-07-22 10:54:31 AM  
I have never been convinced by any one person, but I have been convinced by observing masses of people and learning about how the world works. I was raised a staunch Republican, transitioned rather quickly to Democrat after becoming an atheist in college, and have recently moved more to the center, not because I'm apathetic, but because the issues I care greatly about align with conservatives about as often as they align with liberals.
 
2013-07-22 10:56:19 AM  
I considered myself a Conservative for years. I ran for a State House seat in the late 1990s as an (R), I even found one of my old positions papers last year... pretty right. I voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004. I voted for Obama in 2008 because of what Bush and Company did to the economy. But I was never really hardcore.

Then 2010 happened. Walker in Wisconsin, Kasich in Ohio, the ignorance of the Tea 'tards, the Christian Taliban shiat pulled by the Fundies, the idiots in the House. I went full blue collar libby lib because of this insanity. I disagree with many things the Obama administration does, but every time it says something kind of dumb, the Tea 'tards take it and run it into the ground with their stupidity and ignorance.

I want Single Payer Health Care, I don't care to listen to some idiot tell me why it's bad because they mis-understand Socialism.
I want the US out of Afghanistan ASAP. I'm glad the time table's been fast tracked.
I like guns but the bullshiat surrounding the debate, especially the three times as loud neanderthals on the right, have turned me off. I now agree there should be mild controls in place because of the ignorance of the pro-gun idiots.

Basically the Tea 'tard Nation has turned me around. Good job, guys.
 
2013-07-22 10:57:12 AM  

jchuffyman: Jesus was a pretty cool dude (or a pretty cool character).


Agreed.  I view him as a philosopher and believe his teachings are very wise, which is the same opinion I have of the Buddha.  Whether or not tales of them were embellished or untrue, the teachings that have survived contain some excellent advice on living a good life, respecting others, and generally following the basic "don't be a dick" rule.  It's just a shame so many who identify as Christian don't bother to read the words of the man who the religion is supposedly focused on.
 
2013-07-22 10:57:12 AM  
No, how I think the govt should interact with the people is the same as always.

Though in my meat life there really are not that many active liberal thinkers.  They are  either appolitical or the bent of "I want this program that will benefit me but dont you ever think of taxing me to pay for it... regressive taxes and furthormore"
 
2013-07-22 11:05:37 AM  

trotsky: I considered myself a Conservative for years. I ran for a State House seat in the late 1990s as an (R), I even found one of my old positions papers last year... pretty right. I voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004. I voted for Obama in 2008 because of what Bush and Company did to the economy. But I was never really hardcore.

Then 2010 happened. Walker in Wisconsin, Kasich in Ohio, the ignorance of the Tea 'tards, the Christian Taliban shiat pulled by the Fundies, the idiots in the House. I went full blue collar libby lib because of this insanity. I disagree with many things the Obama administration does, but every time it says something kind of dumb, the Tea 'tards take it and run it into the ground with their stupidity and ignorance.

I want Single Payer Health Care, I don't care to listen to some idiot tell me why it's bad because they mis-understand Socialism.
I want the US out of Afghanistan ASAP. I'm glad the time table's been fast tracked.
I like guns but the bullshiat surrounding the debate, especially the three times as loud neanderthals on the right, have turned me off. I now agree there should be mild controls in place because of the ignorance of the pro-gun idiots.

Basically the Tea 'tard Nation has turned me around. Good job, guys.


Agreed on basically all your points, but my personal experience with Afghanistan has pushed me away from getting everyone out of the country immediately. As it is, we're going to be leaving behind a ton of shiat because we simply cannot ship it out of the country fast enough. Even if we greased the wheels by bribing border and customs officials, we'd still be unable to get it all out. Our options for what's left are to leave it for the Afghans to pillage, sell it for ANSF use, or burn it so nobody can use it.
 
2013-07-22 11:07:05 AM  
Watching the police/surveillance state grow under Bush made me more liberal, because liberals were fighting it.  Now that it's under Obama's control they've stopped hating authoritarianism and war, so now I've found myself agreeing more with conservatives in their criticism of the DHS and NSA.

I'm hoping a Republican gets elected president again so liberals can start being outraged by the destruction of the constitution again.  Though I'll never agree with liberals on guns.
 
2013-07-22 11:09:21 AM  

dehehn: I'm hoping a Republican gets elected president again so liberals can start being outraged by the destruction of the constitution again.  Though I'll never agree with liberals on guns.


It won't matter. Nobody voluntarily gives up an advantage. They have it now, either side will utilize it.
 
2013-07-22 11:09:35 AM  

nekom: jchuffyman: Jesus was a pretty cool dude (or a pretty cool character).

Agreed.  I view him as a philosopher and believe his teachings are very wise, which is the same opinion I have of the Buddha.  Whether or not tales of them were embellished or untrue, the teachings that have survived contain some excellent advice on living a good life, respecting others, and generally following the basic "don't be a dick" rule.  It's just a shame so many who identify as Christian don't bother to read the words of the man who the religion is supposedly focused on.


My dad is a minister in a more red letter brand of Christianity, so I grew up respecting the actual words of Jesus, and still do. I just left behind the supernatural element a long time ago
 
2013-07-22 11:11:35 AM  

Reginald Maudling: Day care is not a good analog for all human society I think.


Works fairly well for American society though.
 
2013-07-22 11:15:10 AM  
Those are not the only two possible categories nor are they particularly descriptive, duopolymitter.

In any case, ive moved pretty far leftward since my teenage years. Can't really trace it to any one specific person to blame. But its not like I meditated for a month and a day and found enlightenment by myself either.
 
2013-07-22 11:16:05 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Have you considered that it is because they  can't pay?

Yes, I've considered that. I've also seen their Gucci purses and wheeled them out to nicer cars than mine. Sure, there are some that can't pay, those people should be on Medicare (and they can go to regular doctors during office hours for non-emergency care and the vast majority of Medicare patients do just that).

There is a certain pride for many people in scamming the government. The biggest tax refund scammer around these parts was just sentenced to 21 years in prison, but she boasted that she stole more than $21MM and dared authorities to catch her. She called herself the 'first lady' of refund fraud.

You just get tired of seeing your tax money wasted. I pay all my taxes, I even pay use taxes on stuff I buy from Amazon because you're supposed to pay your taxes. When I see the IRS not cooperating with local law enforcement in refund fraud because of federal privacy laws and congress wasting their time on bullshiat I just get fed up.

Rincewind53: The fact of the matter is that the poor in America  do not have access to good health care.

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.


And why don't we have a right to free health care?  Watch some of this and see what you think.  You don't even have to watch it all, just get to the 2:30 minute mark.  By the way, I'm also a nurse and I work in psych area of the hospital.  We work with a lot of the poor and the elderly and have many, 'repeaters'.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

By the way, I appreciate your respectful tone even having a different opinion.
 
2013-07-22 11:17:40 AM  
I was a liberal and voted that way (Carter) through the 70s.  I'm sorry about that I really am.
Once we started having children and employees things started to change.  We had other lives and livelihoods we were responsible for.  Good hard working people really do better when they can take care of themselves than they do when they have to give so much of the money they earned instead to the government(s) first, and then wait for it to come to them, the people who earned it in the first place.
 
2013-07-22 11:21:09 AM  
I wouldn't say my overall alignment has changed -- I've always been somewhat liberal, since I grew up in a non-religious household and religious conservatives have always annoyed me with their anti-science attitudes.  But I'd say I have changed my stance on a few issues over the years:

-Sexual morality: being from China, my family didn't really talk about sex at all, so I grew up with an impression that the one-man, one-woman paradigm is the only correct orientation, just because.  It wasn't until I got acquainted with gay, lesbian, and transgender people in high school and college that I realized that they're not really that different, and that non-heterosexual orientations aren't by themselves any indication of bad moral character.  Also, I have relaxed ("liberalized", I suppose you might say) my position on sex before marriage after actually observing how people's relationships actually work out.  Also related, reading Lawrence Tribe on the abortion question (and talking with several friends who have been pregnant) helped me nail down a position on abortion, which I used to be kinda undecided on.

-International relations: I used to be a lot more hawkish, probably from reading too many Tom Clancy novels.  But after 9/11 and the Iraq experience, it's a lot harder to justify military adventurism.  I think smaller-scale engagements where we can act through local proxies (Libya, the initial phase of the Afghan War, maybe Syria if the Turks can commit) can be justifiable, but frankly I don't think there's really any war that is essential to American interests.

-Economic issues: I wasn't old enough to vote yet in 2000, but I used to think that the moderate Republican / neo-liberal view of economic development through credit support was an interesting idea for helping relieve poverty.  Since that came to fruition in the form of the financial collapse in 2008, I think that maybe if we just gave those people cold hard cash instead of making them (and ourselves, via bailouts) beholden to large financial institutions, we'd probably be better off today.  I also used to be more of a hard-money, strong-dollar, high-interest rate advocate, maybe because of how Asian culture encourages saving, but that was before I learned about how financial markets really work.
 
2013-07-22 11:23:55 AM  

Wendy's Chili: Hayek and Friedman weren't as batshiat as their modern disciples would lead you to believe. They even supported guaranteed minimum incomes.


Friedman did not support minimum wage laws.
 
2013-07-22 11:24:25 AM  

Tyee: I was a liberal and voted that way (Carter) through the 70s.  I'm sorry about that I really am.
Once we started having children and employees things started to change.  We had other lives and livelihoods we were responsible for.  Good hard working people really do better when they can take care of themselves than they do when they have to give so much of the money they earned instead to the government(s) first, and then wait for it to come to them, the people who earned it in the first place.


Really? People have to give their money to the government and wait for a bureaucratic death ninja to give that money back? When did this happen?
 
2013-07-22 11:25:51 AM  
I guess one thing that I really changed my mind on in college: I'm a lot more appreciative of the value of religion.  I'm still atheist, but I don't assume religious people are ignorant anymore.

Interestingly enough, the guy who I mostly attribute that "conversion" to started college as an Evangelical Christian and ended up a flaming liberal.  And by "flaming" I mean "out-of-the-closet".
 
2013-07-22 11:26:42 AM  

SunsetLament: Wendy's Chili: Hayek and Friedman weren't as batshiat as their modern disciples would lead you to believe. They even supported guaranteed minimum incomes.

Friedman did not support minimum wage laws.


This is what Wendy's Chili was talking about. It's not a minimum wage. It's a basic income guarantee that comes directly from the government in exchange for absolutely nothing.
 
2013-07-22 11:27:02 AM  

trotsky: I considered myself a Conservative for years. I ran for a State House seat in the late 1990s as an (R), I even found one of my old positions papers last year... pretty right. I voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004. I voted for Obama in 2008 because of what Bush and Company did to the economy. But I was never really hardcore.

Then 2010 happened. Walker in Wisconsin, Kasich in Ohio, the ignorance of the Tea 'tards, the Christian Taliban shiat pulled by the Fundies, the idiots in the House. I went full blue collar libby lib because of this insanity. I disagree with many things the Obama administration does, but every time it says something kind of dumb, the Tea 'tards take it and run it into the ground with their stupidity and ignorance.

I want Single Payer Health Care, I don't care to listen to some idiot tell me why it's bad because they mis-understand Socialism.
I want the US out of Afghanistan ASAP. I'm glad the time table's been fast tracked.
I like guns but the bullshiat surrounding the debate, especially the three times as loud neanderthals on the right, have turned me off. I now agree there should be mild controls in place because of the ignorance of the pro-gun idiots.

Basically the Tea 'tard Nation has turned me around. Good job, guys.


... yet you selected your username "trotsky" in 2003?  I smell a little bullshiat.
 
2013-07-22 11:27:04 AM  
Years ago, during the height of the insurgence in Iraq and the 2004 election, I almost became a conservative when, one day it was pointed out to me that by not supporting Bush I hated Amercia and I was helping the terrorists. But then I realized, "Well, those that hate terrorists and love the US say some things that have points, and those who support terrorism and hate America say some other things that also make points." It was very confusing. I mean, people were saying lots of stuff and both sides really disagreed about what "facts" were. In the end I bought a hot dog from a street vendor and realized that sometimes it's better just to follow your appetite. These days I find myself voting for the campaign that does free pancakes closest to my place.
 
2013-07-22 11:29:30 AM  
I guess it's more accurate to say that what was important to me changed more than the content of my views. Events (data) tend to shape my views more than individual persuasion. I have had some people help clarify their positions, and those positions I found to have merit, so on some set of issues, I have waxed and waned conservative/liberal - and in many ways, I could have been seen as relatively libertarian - though never so much as to think Ron Paul was anything but insane.

I started out a Republican because of my staunch anti-communism and have always been (and remain) hawkish and interventionist. At the start of the '90s, I was working for a conservative "educational" organization (read: lobbying). But after the Cold War ended, I started seeing other issues as being more pressing. In 2000 I voted for Bush. In 2004, I cast my first vote for a Democrat for president - not because he was great but because the Libertarian part of me said you can't let a president get away with the kind of mistake Bush made in Iraq. (It's one thing to be neocon, it's another to implement neocon strategies stupidly.)

Republicans started to shift away from the William F. Buckley, Jr. model of conservatism after 9/11, and it became stark by 2006, the last time I voted for a Republican. The GOP didn't have to lose me. But by 2008, it became clear that the GOP had lost its collective mind. McCain was not the man I voted for in the 2000 primaries, and Palin simply added the whipped cream of retardation on top of the banana split of fail the GOP had become. I joined the Democratic Party because I decided trying to pull Democrats to the right was probably easier than pulling Republicans to the right.

I'm not as economically left as most Democrats. I don't buy into the left/libertarian MIC narrative. I believe way too much in externalities to be a Libertarian. I am almost, but not quite, libertarian in my belief in separation of church and state. (Get over pre-1950 christian monuments on government land. OMG - Who the Hell cares?) Socially, though, I'm pretty liberal. Legalize pot. Legalize gay marriage. Vice laws, for the most part, should go. I'm pro-universal health care - because it's both cheaper and leads to better outcomes than what we do. I like a strong FDA, OSHA, and other federal regulatory agencies. Get rid of most other forms of business distortions like tax incentives and subsidies. Simplify the tax code, especially for businesses.

That concludes my self-important wall of text. Probably, no one should have read through all of that.
 
2013-07-22 11:34:19 AM  

feckingmorons: Rincewind53: Here are some statistics. In 2012,  80 million Americans didn't go to the doctor or access needed medical care because of cost.

How do they know what it costs? Call up a doctor's office and ask what you will have to pay for an exam and two standard blood tests. They can't tell you because of the nonsense that insurance/government programs/managed care is these days.

If patients knew that they had to spend $40 for a comprehensive (30 minute) exam and $6 for a CBC and $25 for a SMA-23 they could budget for those things. If the doctor knew he could count on getting paid those amounts they could actully charge those.

Now the doctor bills $167 and gets paid $19.23 for the visit. The lab gets $3.60 for the CBC and $14.44 for the SMA23 (those are real numbers for a Medicare patient) The patient is then billed about $17 dollars more for their 'co-payment' (a bullshiat term).

If I walk into Sears I pay the same price for a wrench as you and the guy down the street and the Pope if he were to stop in. The price fixing (or negotiated pricing) of managed care is bullshiat. It should be illegal.

Price things the same for everyone and it will be more affordable for everyone. Those who can't work because of disability, infirmity, or age we can cover with our social programs and we can better judge the costs and not force doctors, hospitals and drug companies to sell to government plans at below market rates.

Doctors will stop accepting Medicaid because it simply isn't enough money for the work they have to do.

Just because you get some insurance through a government sponsored exchange doesn't mean any doctor will take patients with that insurance.


THIS so much.

/better late than never?
 
2013-07-22 11:34:52 AM  
Yes.  I used to be much more liberal.  I also was much more anti-christian having been bludgeoned by the bible in the 80's.  Now I guess I just have a higher tolerance for assholes.
 
2013-07-22 11:35:15 AM  
jchuffyman:
I just left behind the supernatural element a long time ago

Yeah, I have too for the most part.  I think A LOT more people than some realize have.  My parents are both members of a small United Methodist church, in fact so am I as I don't believe it expires.  I still go on homecoming, sometimes Christmas and Easter, and it's really more of a social thing.  Mom's maybe agnostic leaning on the side of belief, dad's an atheist but he plays the piano there.  Covered dish dinners, chicken and biscuits, Easter ham breakfasts, it has very little to do with religion outside of the scripture readings.  I also stop in to get married once in awhile.  It is in many ways a more social than religious institution.
 
2013-07-22 11:35:38 AM  

Arkanaut: Interestingly enough, the guy who I mostly attribute that "conversion" to started college as an Evangelical Christian and ended up a flaming liberal.  And by "flaming" I mean "out-of-the-closet".


I just realized it would have been much more poetic to use "fiery" as an adjective for "Evangelical Christian", to contrast that with the second part.  Oh well.

//should have sent a poet.
 
2013-07-22 11:36:18 AM  
Stupid Question. Anyone who is "conservative" or "liberal" on every issue is a moron.

Anyone who thinks and is at all informed will fall on either side of the fictitious line between conservative and liberal on any number of unique issues. Beyond that, there are infinite nuances and degrees of "conservative" and "liberal" on each of these individual issues.

Is an environmentalist, limited pro-choice, civil-rights advocate, anti-gay discrimination, anti-gay marriage, small government, pro-public education, pro-gun rights, pro expanded background checks, pro-religion advocate who hates bible thumpers a conservative or a liberal? The answer is neither, because the question is stupid and assumes a false dichotomy.

More than anything else, we, as a nation, need to rid ourselves of this tribal political binary partisanship. We need "conservative" democrats and "liberal" republicans, and independents of no discernible ideology and we need to be evaluating candidates and politicians based on their actual policy and actions rather than just using a letter by their name to assume whether or not they are on our "team" or not.
 
2013-07-22 11:36:25 AM  

Serious Black: SunsetLament: Wendy's Chili: Hayek and Friedman weren't as batshiat as their modern disciples would lead you to believe. They even supported guaranteed minimum incomes.

Friedman did not support minimum wage laws.

This is what Wendy's Chili was talking about. It's not a minimum wage. It's a basic income guarantee that comes directly from the government in exchange for absolutely nothing.


Friedman considered the Negative Income Tax to be a preferable replacement to all welfare and entitlements.  Friedman did not support the Negative Income Tax unless it meant the end of welfare as we know it.  And he advocated no income tax at all as the best option.  In no way, whatsoever, did Friedman advocate or support minimum wage laws.
 
2013-07-22 11:39:20 AM  

Serious Black: SunsetLament: Wendy's Chili: Hayek and Friedman weren't as batshiat as their modern disciples would lead you to believe. They even supported guaranteed minimum incomes.

Friedman did not support minimum wage laws.

This is what Wendy's Chili was talking about. It's not a minimum wage. It's a basic income guarantee that comes directly from the government in exchange for absolutely nothing.


Can't see Youtube at work, but I believe Friedman's idea was for "negative taxation" in lieu of in-kind assistance, not necessarily a basic income guarantee, although they are similar.  So I think the EITC is a form of negative taxation but it wouldn't be a kind of basic income guarantee.
 
2013-07-22 11:46:09 AM  

Abacus9: sn82: make me some tea: sn82: I was a democrat until I met my ex several years ago. Then he told me more about republican and it made sense. I'm still kind of in the middle of the two parties but am more to the right than in the past. I still mostly vote for the right candidate versus voting for which party they're affiliated with.

As an ex-conservatve, what "made sense" to you specifically?

The theory of small government and not spending as much as democrats do.

If you think conservatives care about small government and less spending, perhaps you don't remember GWB? Starting unnecessary wars, greatly expanding the power of government under the Patriot USAPATRIOT Act, Defense of Marriage and all that?

syrynxx: The US government has no more right to force me to buy 3rd-party health insurance than it does to force me to buy ketchup or soup or footwear. It certainly doesn't have the authority to penalize me for not buying a commercial product.

You have to purchase auto insurance if you own a car. How is that different?


FTFY.  It's an acronym.
 
2013-07-22 11:47:23 AM  

monty666: No, I can't be conservative because I actually care about other human beings.


This. I'm not sure that that's something that can be beaten out of me, short of a disease or ailment that causes a massive personality change.
 
2013-07-22 11:48:28 AM  

Abacus9: Same here, both sides are ultra-conservative, and they consider me the libbiest lib that ever libbed (which isn't completely true). They also consider me the smartest in the family, go figure.


I have this exact line listed in my Facebook About Me: "Political Views."
 
2013-07-22 11:52:02 AM  

Abacus9: If you think conservatives care about small government and less spending, perhaps you don't remember GWB? Starting unnecessary wars, greatly expanding the power of government under the Patriot Act, Defense of Marriage and all that?


Ahem, DOMA was signed by Bill Clinton.
 
2013-07-22 11:52:14 AM  

Tyee: Good hard working people really do better when they can take care of themselves than they do when they have to give so much of the money they earned instead to the government(s) first, and then wait for it to come to them, the people who earned it in the first place.


Stop acting like such a victim. You don't pay THAT much in taxes. And what you do pay goes out to help not only other people, but yourself. You know that infrastructure you use for your business and employees?

You're welcome.
 
2013-07-22 11:56:54 AM  

SunsetLament: Serious Black: SunsetLament: Wendy's Chili: Hayek and Friedman weren't as batshiat as their modern disciples would lead you to believe. They even supported guaranteed minimum incomes.

Friedman did not support minimum wage laws.

This is what Wendy's Chili was talking about. It's not a minimum wage. It's a basic income guarantee that comes directly from the government in exchange for absolutely nothing.

Friedman considered the Negative Income Tax to be a preferable replacement to all welfare and entitlements.  Friedman did not support the Negative Income Tax unless it meant the end of welfare as we know it.  And he advocated no income tax at all as the best option.  In no way, whatsoever, did Friedman advocate or support minimum wage laws.


Friedman grew up and largely developed his theories in an era of relatively strong unions within the labor market. Unions are largely extinct today. If we did what you believe Friedman supported, which is absolutely no government support of the indigent and abolishing labor laws like the minimum wage...well, I'm not certain what the outcome would be, but widespread food riots would be the most likely IMO.
 
2013-07-22 11:57:03 AM  
feckingmorons:

They have access to it. We have a right to access to health care, we don't have a right to free healthcare.

And this is why you are a terrible person.

Healthcare isn't a optional luxury.  Once you realize this we'll stop calling you a selfish miser.
 
2013-07-22 11:57:26 AM  
I started as a conservative capitalist type as a teenager. Then I grew up. There wasn't any particular person that "convinced" me of anything, but going from dead poverty to upper-middle class the way you're "supposed" to do it showed me exactly how much of a scam and a disaster the capitalist system really is.
 
2013-07-22 11:58:30 AM  
I was already drifting leftward, decribing myself as a "-" conservative  (usually  "fiscal" or "Libertarian") to distinguish myself from the Moral Majority crowd,  but in law school while discussing Tort law (at the time "tort reform" was a huge hot-button for conservatives)  I basically learned how the law actually worked, and some economic concepts like "the Marginal cost of money"   that made me realize the conservative positon on tort reform was full of shiat and based on misinformation and lies, and really amounted to corporations attempting to cost-shift some of thier business costs onto consumers.   That caused a re-examination of a lot core conservative beliefs, and most of them proved to be equally unfounded in reality.   The nail inthe coffin came when I watched Congressgive the FBI, in the USA Patriot Act, the exact same powers that they had violently blocked during the Clinton Administration as being far too dangerous to American Liberty to ever be allowed of a US law enforcement agency.
 
2013-07-22 11:59:33 AM  

GoldSpider: Abacus9: If you think conservatives care about small government and less spending, perhaps you don't remember GWB? Starting unnecessary wars, greatly expanding the power of government under the Patriot Act, Defense of Marriage and all that?

Ahem, DOMA was signed by Bill Clinton.


Wasn't that a compromise in some way to prevent the Republicans from trying to get a "Same-Sex Marriage Ban" Amendment into the Constitution?

/ Please note I didn't say that it was good compromise.
 
2013-07-22 12:00:15 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: You don't pay THAT much in taxes.


You really, really have no idea what I pay.

And if taxes weren't automatically taken out of your paycheck ( I'm assuming you get one) and you had to write out a check to the government(s) periodically you wouldn't be happy when you realize how much you do pay.  Pull out a few months of stubs and add up how much you earned but you didn't get.
 
2013-07-22 12:01:10 PM  
George Bush and Dick Cheney did an amazing job of converting me to being a liberal.
 
2013-07-22 12:02:17 PM  
I don't think anyone could convince me to join a political party with which I disagree on many levels. And I doubt I could convince anyone of the same. Politics are too much of a Big Thing for some people.
 
2013-07-22 12:03:07 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Stop acting like such a victim. You don't pay THAT much in taxes.


How much have you decided is the acceptable amount of taxes? 10%? 50%? 80%? Exactly how much of every dollar we earn should be confiscated and re-allocated for the benefit of others?

And nearly half of every AFTER-Tax dollar I spend on gas goes to roads and infrastructure, as well as the After-Tax dollars that go top pay for the toll roads, and the additional After-Tax dollars that go to Sales Taxes and property taxes to pay for public transportation, public schools and public colleges. Tell me again how federal income tax benefits us as well as those who do not pay into the system.

So how much of every dollar we earn should be given to our fellow man?
 
2013-07-22 12:07:15 PM  

Tyee: The My Little Pony Killer: You don't pay THAT much in taxes.

You really, really have no idea what I pay.

And if taxes weren't automatically taken out of your paycheck ( I'm assuming you get one) and you had to write out a check to the government(s) periodically you wouldn't be happy when you realize how much you do pay.  Pull out a few months of stubs and add up how much you earned but you didn't get.


When I was deployed, I got danger pay and post differential pay, and neither of those was exempted from federal or state taxation. That money did not start immediately, so I got a huge chunk of retroactive money once I had been in the country for a long enough time. The federal withholding on my first paycheck with the retroactive pay was bigger than I normally gross. And I was more than happy to pay it.
 
2013-07-22 12:07:21 PM  
To me, conservatism, as it is now, is just a childish, selfish attitude of "I know better than you and I'm going to throw a temper tantrum until you agree."
 
2013-07-22 12:07:33 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: monty666: No, I can't be conservative because I actually care about other human beings.

This. I'm not sure that that's something that can be beaten out of me, short of a disease or ailment that causes a massive personality change.


Which is an odd feature for Conservatives, but it is something that is being fostered by the radical wing. Those on the Religious Right, who subscribe to the Prosperity Gospel, and the NeoCons who have taken to Games Theory and a selfishness philosophy to justify looking at citizens not as equals, but as resources. It isn't particularly Conservative, but then again, the party has had the reins taken over by those least capable and least qualified to make decisions for the good of the nation and its citizens.

What is called Conservative today, is the distillation of the most radical thoughts of the last 40 years, married with dreams of glory who long for the days of simplicity when we were always at war with the dirty Commies. And sh*t ain't like that, but the leadership remembers, and cannot divorce itself from that mode of thought. And it's not really ideologically or intellectually prepared for this new age, and the "young" Conservatives who are coming up, don't have the perspective to understand this shift, and are being brought up into this brand of radicalism and learn to call it "Conservative" thought.

Not everyone holds to that, but the leadership isn't courting saner alternatives, because discourse gets in the way of narrative. And that is the real jam that we find ourselves in, with Rove and his proteges, having won races for folks, and not really seeing that the price of those victories has been to bankrupt the system, to the point where discussion and compromise is seen as weakness, and slicing off vast swathes of the populace for not being seen as having any real value. It is a scorched earth approach to politics that gets in the way of actual governance, but then again, these are folks who only see governance as furthering their patrons' end of things, and without any respect for that system. And it works for some, because they imagine that so long as they tout the party line, that they'll be on the right side of the fence when it goes up, and have very little understanding of civics in any real form.

Civics education has long been a bugbear for these folks. Civics education gets in the way of narrative, which is why we don't see it taught in our high schools in any substantive form. Anything that gets in the way of narrative is seen as an enemy. Be that science. Be that language. Be that history. The perversion of the very concept of subjective reality is the "strength" that the NeoCons have given the party, and that willful ignorance of the concept, and the pushing of it in a neigh religious tone, as if will can be made manifest simply by believing strongly enough, that has been seductive to many who know that if you just change perspective, you can get rubes to believe damn near anything, so long as you wave a flag in front of it. And those in the GOP who realize that this is the operating procedure, and who disagree with it, vehemently, have been cut off from funding, starved off the vine, much like the NeoCons want to starve off regulation of basic industries, because they believe that if they wish it strongly enough, it will be, and damn the real consequences, because when things go pear shaped, you can simply spin the situation, as opposed to dealing with it. It is a rabidly Ivory Tower idea of governance that requires being totally divorced from your own citizens in order to work.
 
2013-07-22 12:07:45 PM  

MadHatter500: Healthcare isn't a optional luxury.


Nor is it a right.

Nothing that requires the labor of another person can be a right. You have a right not to be poisoned, you have a right to exercise, you have a right to clean air and water, you have a right to take whatever steps for yourself you deem fit to stay healthy. But you do not have a RIGHT to have a doctor tend to your health. No human right can ever require the unwilling participation of another person.

Once you realize this we'll stop calling you a naïve child.
 
2013-07-22 12:07:50 PM  

sn82: make me some tea: sn82: I was a democrat until I met my ex several years ago. Then he told me more about republican and it made sense. I'm still kind of in the middle of the two parties but am more to the right than in the past. I still mostly vote for the right candidate versus voting for which party they're affiliated with.

As an ex-conservatve, what "made sense" to you specifically?

The theory of small government and not spending as much as democrats do.


Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
/You're welcome.
 
2013-07-22 12:08:19 PM  
"Has anyone ever convinced you to change from being conservative to being liberal (or vice versa)?"

You mean like for sex?

A Dark Evil Omen: I started as a conservative capitalist type as a teenager. Then I grew up. There wasn't any particular person that "convinced" me of anything, but going from dead poverty to upper-middle class the way you're "supposed" to do it showed me exactly how much of a scam and a disaster the capitalist system really is.


I don't think many on Fark have ever seen how capitalist system works. For decades counterfeiting has allowed a stealth back door socialism to suck the life out of the capital capitalism needs to operate.
 
2013-07-22 12:08:50 PM  

47 is the new 42: Wasn't that a compromise in some way to prevent the Republicans from trying to get a "Same-Sex Marriage Ban" Amendment into the Constitution?


I'd have to go back and see what Clinton himself said about gay marriage, but something tells me he wasn't on board (at the time) either.  If I recall correctly, he recently expressed remorse for signing DOMA.  Good on him now after the fact, I suppose.
 
2013-07-22 12:09:22 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Nothing that requires the labor of another person can be a right.


The right to an attorney?
 
2013-07-22 12:10:01 PM  
A common thread here seems to be that people who change are more likely to feel pushed away from one side than drawn to the other. I think I'm the same way. It could explain why a lot of politics is so negative, though.

I used to consider myself "liberal" and still do, but I've changed issue-by-issue. I've gone even further left on foreign policy and economic issues, and more libertarian on social issues.

I also have a consistent anti-authority streak that has me leaning a little more left under Republicans (GW Bush was a big one) and more right under Democratic ones.
 
2013-07-22 12:10:32 PM  

GoldSpider: Abacus9: If you think conservatives care about small government and less spending, perhaps you don't remember GWB? Starting unnecessary wars, greatly expanding the power of government under the Patriot Act, Defense of Marriage and all that?

Ahem, DOMA was signed by Bill Clinton.


Ahem. Only one Republican voted against it. All other Nay votes were from Democrats.
 
2013-07-22 12:11:29 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: The My Little Pony Killer: Stop acting like such a victim. You don't pay THAT much in taxes.

How much have you decided is the acceptable amount of taxes? 10%? 50%? 80%? Exactly how much of every dollar we earn should be confiscated and re-allocated for the benefit of others?

And nearly half of every AFTER-Tax dollar I spend on gas goes to roads and infrastructure, as well as the After-Tax dollars that go top pay for the toll roads, and the additional After-Tax dollars that go to Sales Taxes and property taxes to pay for public transportation, public schools and public colleges. Tell me again how federal income tax benefits us as well as those who do not pay into the system.

So how much of every dollar we earn should be given to our fellow man?


Hurray for terrible metaphors involving taxation!

On another note, why must we specify for all eternity an exact percentage of money that we think should go to the government in the form of taxes?
 
2013-07-22 12:12:11 PM  
I was an arch-conservative until I was in my mid 20's partially as a result of being raised Catholic, partially as a result of 9/11, which happened during my senior year in high school(The world is balck and white!  Let's go get all the bad guys!).  I voted R pretty consistently up to '08 but after Bush left, I was finally able to rationally examine what I was supporting without the emotional baggage of having to defend the guy I voted for because if he was wrong I was wrong.  Spent a little while as a Fark independent but after I left the conservative echo chamber of HotAir, Powrline, Townhall, Instapundit, RWN, (Embarrassed to say it but these were all bookmarked and regularly visited pages.  Oi, people do some dumb stuff when they're young) and talk radio, and having weighed my own life experiences, I left the GOP, libertarianism, and conservatism for good.

Still, the Dems aren't anything special.  I mean, there are a few good ones (Booker!  Warren!!) and once Crazy Eyes Bachmann finally leaves my home state's congressional delegation isn't terrible, but the Democrats really need to farkin grow a pair.
 
2013-07-22 12:12:38 PM  

Skyrmion: A common thread here seems to be that people who change are more likely to feel pushed away from one side than drawn to the other. I think I'm the same way. It could explain why a lot of politics is so negative, though.

I used to consider myself "liberal" and still do, but I've changed issue-by-issue. I've gone even further left on foreign policy and economic issues, and more libertarian on social issues.

I also have a consistent anti-authority streak that has me leaning a little more left under Republicans (GW Bush was a big one) and more right under Democratic ones.


See, I guess I don't understand how an anti-authoritarian streak pushes one right. Everything rightists push is based in authoritarianism, from social policies to ultra-capitalist economics.
 
2013-07-22 12:13:18 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: MadHatter500: Healthcare isn't a optional luxury.

Nor is it a right.

Nothing that requires the labor of another person can be a right. You have a right not to be poisoned, you have a right to exercise, you have a right to clean air and water, you have a right to take whatever steps for yourself you deem fit to stay healthy. But you do not have a RIGHT to have a doctor tend to your health. No human right can ever require the unwilling participation of another person.

Once you realize this we'll stop calling you a naïve child.


Have you read Gideon v. Wainwright? Or going back further, have you read the text of the Sixth Amendment?
 
2013-07-22 12:13:38 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: BojanglesPaladin: Nothing that requires the labor of another person can be a right.

The right to an attorney?


Not to mention that ER doctors are already required to treat anybody and everybody that shows up there, regardless of their ability to pay
 
2013-07-22 12:13:52 PM  

Bendal: Stile4aly: It would be unfair to say that Bush convinced me to become a liberal.  It would be more accurate to say that the majority of the Republican party during the early 2000s convinced me.

I voted for Dole in 1996 (that's how conservative I was) and Bush in 2000.  Didn't vote in 2004.  Been the libbiest lib who ever libbed since.


Sounds like me. I registered in 1978 and voted Republican in state and Federal elections right up to 1992. I was disappointed in George Bush Sr after his first term and voted independent that election, then reluctantly voted for Clinton in 1996. After that, however, I'd say the Republican party left me; Gingrich's "Contract with America", the grandstanding with the Federal shutdown, and the impeachment of Clinton for trivial, personal reasons soured me on the Republicans, and they've only gotten worse since then.


Like everyone else, I experimented in college. I voted Republican for H.W. Bush and Deukmajian for CA governor. And then the Gulf War happened and the later Reagan scandals started coming into focus. So I started voting Democrat. And then Gingrich happened and I lost all interest in the (R) party. I have not voted Republican since. So I guess Newt convinced me.
 
2013-07-22 12:14:40 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: The right to an attorney?


You have no "right to an attorney" outside of the state bringing you into the criminal justice system, which is a specific situation for which the state is responsible, and is therefore constitutionally required to equip you with an attorney if you are unable to get one of your own. But the key thing here is that no attorney can be compelled to provide counsel. They volunteer and are paid for their services. The STATE has the obligation to provide one for you when charging you with a crime. And, of course, you are free to get your own.

But outside of that specific circumstance where the legal system is required to provide one for you? No right at all. You have no "RIGHT" to an attorney to sue for you in civil court, for instance. And you have no "RIGHT" to an attorney if someone sues you.
 
2013-07-22 12:15:24 PM  

jgbrowning: Weaver95: randomjsa: Few people will fundamentally change their political mind set on things.

I did/have.

I did as well - changed from conservative to liberal 'round about the Gingrich years.


I switched from conservative to liberal as well.  Bush helped turn me around.  When anybody questions me about it, I just tell them, "Well, I saw America go from a strong economy and a budget surplus under Clinton, to almost falling into another 'Great Depression' under Bush along with giving us two wars.  That was enough to open my eyes!"

Also, when I considered myself a conservative, I made it a point to not look at links people posted that had a liberal point of view.  I told myself that they were just skewing facts and I was afraid it would confuse me.

I now read most links on both side, then do my own research to find the truth.  I find on the whole, Democrats and liberals are much more truthful.
 
2013-07-22 12:17:28 PM  
I'm still a registered Republican, but mostly because I like the idea of them thinking my vote is locked up when that's not necessarily the case.
 
2013-07-22 12:18:04 PM  
I just watched the History Channel profile on Caligula: 1400 Days of Terror, and it showed how the young brilliant Caligula was exposed to all the vileness that comes with unbridled power and decided that would suit him to a tee, so he goes into the Senate and gets all humble and introspective regarding Rome's problems, impressing the pants off the whole Senate committee so much so that they give it to him, lock stock and barrel. So he immediately turns around and literally buys the loyalty of all around him by doubling their salaries, and dumping cash from the rooftops into the streets.

And it reminded me of how GWBush campaigned for the presidency in 2000, saying all the right things small government conservatives wanted to hear, how America shouldn't be the world's policemen and we should have a humble foreign policy, and trusting the American people with their own money. Man those conservative voters ate it up and swept him into office as their long globalist Clintonian nightmare was over. Then he turns around and gives everyone a tax refund out of the blue, hundreds of dollars to every person in the country under the guise of trying to reinvigorate the economy after the dotcom bust.

Hm. The jury's still out on whether the similarities ended there.
 
2013-07-22 12:19:15 PM  

A Dark Evil Omen: Skyrmion: A common thread here seems to be that people who change are more likely to feel pushed away from one side than drawn to the other. I think I'm the same way. It could explain why a lot of politics is so negative, though.

I used to consider myself "liberal" and still do, but I've changed issue-by-issue. I've gone even further left on foreign policy and economic issues, and more libertarian on social issues.

I also have a consistent anti-authority streak that has me leaning a little more left under Republicans (GW Bush was a big one) and more right under Democratic ones.

See, I guess I don't understand how an anti-authoritarian streak pushes one right. Everything rightists push is based in authoritarianism, from social policies to ultra-capitalist economics.


Yeah, maybe I should correct that. It's not so much pushing me "right" as it is the parties themselves adjusting and pushing me to to agree more with the words that come out of Republicans mouths more and Democrats mouths less. This kind of thing drives me nuts, for example:

www.motherjones.com

Somehow I've become closer to Republicans than Democrats on the subject of government surveillance. Never saw that coming.
 
2013-07-22 12:19:17 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Dusk-You-n-Me: The right to an attorney?

You have no "right to an attorney" outside of the state bringing you into the criminal justice system, which is a specific situation for which the state is responsible, and is therefore constitutionally required to equip you with an attorney if you are unable to get one of your own. But the key thing here is that no attorney can be compelled to provide counsel. They volunteer and are paid for their services. The STATE has the obligation to provide one for you when charging you with a crime. And, of course, you are free to get your own.

But outside of that specific circumstance where the legal system is required to provide one for you? No right at all. You have no "RIGHT" to an attorney to sue for you in civil court, for instance. And you have no "RIGHT" to an attorney if someone sues you.


You must be pretty incensed about the already threadbare public defender system getting gutted by sequestration.
 
2013-07-22 12:20:02 PM  

Serious Black: Hurray for terrible metaphors involving taxation!


That's not a metaphor. That is a description.

Serious Black: why must we specify for all eternity an exact percentage of money that we think should go to the government in the form of taxes?


Only when someone says the current amount is "not too much". Begs the question. What, then, IS too much?

Serious Black: Have you read Gideon v. Wainwright? Or going back further, have you read the text of the Sixth Amendment?


Have you? Can you point me to the provision that requires an attorney to provide criminal defense council against their will? The STATE has a requirement to provide counsel, but they must find volunteers and pay them to do so.

jchuffyman: ER doctors are already required to treat anybody and everybody that shows up there, regardless of their ability to pay


ER Doctors choose to work the ER. And they ARE paid by the hospital for doing so. They get paid whether their patient pays or not.