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(The Sun)   Not News: Cute teen couple pose in their swimwear. FARK: They were both born the opposite sex (w/pics)   (thesun.co.uk) divider line 216
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31789 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jul 2013 at 5:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-21 10:19:20 PM
I would love to be the meat in that sandwich.
 
2013-07-21 10:42:44 PM
Sounds like they are both lucky to have supportive parents.  Good on 'em.
 
2013-07-21 11:05:45 PM
They are both pretty good looking kids.  Of course, since this story is in the Sun, it's probably completely made up and the two teens are Ukrainians or Bulgarians or something, and the Sun just stole the picture from their Facebook and made up the story to sell papers to their barely literate audience who only buy the paper to look at the tits on Page 3.

But other than that, it's a nice story.
 
2013-07-21 11:06:15 PM
He looks like Justin Bieber, proving that Justin Bieber IS a transsexual F2M.
 
2013-07-21 11:35:39 PM
Cute.
 
2013-07-21 11:42:24 PM

FloydA: it's probably completely made up


Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.
 
2013-07-21 11:47:19 PM
I want to believe.
 
2013-07-21 11:48:16 PM
I call bullshiat

Raging heterosexuality is not a disease.
 
2013-07-22 12:04:41 AM

ThunderPelvis: Sounds like they are both lucky to have supportive parents.  Good on 'em.


THIS.

FTA: Arin's mum Denise says: "There are still people we don't interact with any more. I know they questioned me as a parent."

They may have lost some "friends" in the process but they did the right thing in supporting their kids.
 
2013-07-22 12:37:13 AM

Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.


It is called T it is a hormone that you take.
 
2013-07-22 12:40:35 AM

Good for them. They're an adorable couple.


Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.


Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:

thetfs.ca

That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.

 
2013-07-22 01:43:01 AM

Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.


I don't recall ever seeing a photo of him before the change showing that much skin. Do you know if the breast reduction was surgical or hormonal?
 
2013-07-22 01:51:05 AM

Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.


Where is the line drawn then? Many older women must take testosterone for normal health reasons, but their gender is not referred to as male because of it. Many women diagnosed with breast cancer must have mastectomies, but they are still women. Does the transition occur the moment someone decides to change?
 
2013-07-22 02:09:57 AM

plushpuppy: Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

It is called T it is a hormone that you take.


Also: thick neck and man hands.

/I'm still a doubter
 
2013-07-22 02:32:32 AM

HotWingAgenda: Where is the line drawn then? Many older women must take testosterone for normal health reasons, but their gender is not referred to as male because of it. Many women diagnosed with breast cancer must have mastectomies, but they are still women. Does the transition occur the moment someone decides to change?


Well, there's a big difference between taking testosterone to replace what you've lost, and taking massive doses to fundamentally alter your body chemistry.

If a person identifies as a man, let him. There's no clear line. Breasts or lack thereof has nothing to do with gender. Keira Knightley is flat as a board, but no one says she's not a woman.

Gender is self-identifying. Buck Angel says he always identified as a man. He underwent hormone therapy, had his breasts removed, and had pectoral implants, and yet that isn't what "changed" him from a woman to a man. That just reinforced it.
 
2013-07-22 02:44:24 AM

Rincewind53: HotWingAgenda: Where is the line drawn then? Many older women must take testosterone for normal health reasons, but their gender is not referred to as male because of it. Many women diagnosed with breast cancer must have mastectomies, but they are still women. Does the transition occur the moment someone decides to change?

Well, there's a big difference between taking testosterone to replace what you've lost, and taking massive doses to fundamentally alter your body chemistry.

If a person identifies as a man, let him. There's no clear line. Breasts or lack thereof has nothing to do with gender. Keira Knightley is flat as a board, but no one says she's not a woman.

Gender is self-identifying. Buck Angel says he always identified as a man. He underwent hormone therapy, had his breasts removed, and had pectoral implants, and yet that isn't what "changed" him from a woman to a man. That just reinforced it.


So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.
 
2013-07-22 02:48:56 AM

HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.


I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.
 
2013-07-22 05:40:00 AM
Luke's got birthin' hips.
 
2013-07-22 05:56:55 AM
Calling Shenanigans..  It's The Sun. They are held to the same standards as The Daily Fail
 
2013-07-22 05:57:55 AM
isbn.abebooks.com
 
2013-07-22 06:05:21 AM
Seemed pretty ghey
 
2013-07-22 06:06:10 AM

skatedrifter: I would love to be the meat in that sandwich.


ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww
 
2013-07-22 06:07:32 AM
I've seen that porn...
oh wait, they're post-op.
nevermind
 
2013-07-22 06:12:47 AM
Ew.
 
2013-07-22 06:21:51 AM
PENIS!
 
2013-07-22 06:32:10 AM

HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.


There's a difference between gender and sex. At a chromosomal level we're all stuck with the sex we're born with, that doesn't mean we can't identify more strongly with the different gender. Most of us are lucky enough to have gender and sex match up, for some people they're different.

Anyhow, it's not a big deal for you to refer to people as the gender they identify as rather than as the sex they were born, is it? Even if you personally can't understand why someone would want to make the transition it's not like it somehow takes away from your masculinity/femininity, any more than gay people getting married somehow undermines your straight marriage.
 
2013-07-22 06:33:20 AM

Rincewind53: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.


I'm still of the mindset that you have 'biological sex' and then 'mental illness'.  Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less.  And if you disagree... well then you be nuts.

Then again, if that's their choice, I suppose they are entitled to it.  I mean, we've got people who choose to get metal shoved through their junk too, it's just yet another expensive body mod.  But I don't legitimize it by saying that it's anything but someone who's mildly crazy getting support from people who should be trying to talk them back into sense.  This is basically like someone saying they're an alchoholic and having their friends and family hand them 40's instead of getting them proper help.
 
2013-07-22 06:35:16 AM
Two people who weren't happy in their own bodies are now happier, and have found someone to be with who likes them. In other words, a cool story bro!
 
2013-07-22 06:36:53 AM

Descartes: Seemed pretty ghey


50 shades of ghey?
 
2013-07-22 06:44:54 AM

xellas84: Rincewind53: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.

I'm still of the mindset that you have 'biological sex' and then 'mental illness'.  Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less.  And if you disagree... well then you be nuts.

Then again, if that's their choice, I suppose they are entitled to it.  I mean, we've got people who choose to get metal shoved through their junk too, it's just yet another expensive body mod.  But I don't legitimize it by saying that it's anything but someone who's mildly crazy getting support from people who should be trying to talk them back into sense.  This is basically like someone saying they're an alchoholic and having their friends and family hand them 40's instead of getting them proper help.


Welcome to the dustbin of history. Your "mindset" is now one of prejudice and ignorance.

People who feel they are the wrong sex are driven crazy by people like you, usualy in their own family.
 
2013-07-22 06:49:00 AM
I hate it when little girls dance in crap like that.  It is unnecessarily grown up.
 
2013-07-22 06:51:35 AM

HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined?


It never ceases to amaze me how quickly someone will fall apart over someone else's dangly bits. Does it matter?
 
2013-07-22 06:52:58 AM
Yeah, I guess it's a real drag living in the wrong body. I'm 58, balding, slightly overweight. I wonder if they can help me. This is what I want to look like.

i14.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-22 06:55:33 AM
I just watched a bit in the past couple of months on 20/20 or some such about a couple just like this here in the US.  Thought it was them.
 
2013-07-22 06:56:10 AM

MooseUpNorth: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined?

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly someone will fall apart over someone else's dangly bits. Does it matter?


Only if you're interested in doing the nasty with that person.
 
2013-07-22 06:57:12 AM

Matthew Keene: Yeah, I guess it's a real drag living in the wrong body. I'm 58, balding, slightly overweight. I wonder if they can help me. This is what I want to look like.

[i14.photobucket.com image 338x600]


I'm sure QA can help you out.
 
2013-07-22 06:57:15 AM
I want to see them dance.  You know how girls are better dancers than guys?  No, forget it, might blow my mind.
 
2013-07-22 07:07:48 AM
mimg.ugo.com

They're still boobies to me!
 
2013-07-22 07:10:03 AM
southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com
 
2013-07-22 07:11:44 AM
What's the difference? They are both built like 8 year old school girls.
 
2013-07-22 07:17:55 AM
People with gender dysphoria disorder who want to change sex go to plastic surgeons and they cut off perfectly normal, functioning body parts to match their delusion. People with body integrity identity disorder who think just as strongly they should be amputees or even paraplegics in wheelchairs go to orthopedic surgeons and they refuse to mutilate the patients to feed that delusion.
 
2013-07-22 07:19:27 AM

Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.


Double mastectomy a month ago and no scar? No way.
 
2013-07-22 07:21:18 AM
That's great kids. Are you going to make a big deal out of it? Do you want me to make a big deal out of it?

No? Then enjoy. I'm glad you're happy.
 
2013-07-22 07:28:37 AM

FloydA: They are both pretty good looking kids.  Of course, since this story is in the Sun, it's probably completely made up and the two teens are Ukrainians or Bulgarians or something, and the Sun just stole the picture from their Facebook and made up the story to sell papers to their barely literate audience who only buy the paper to look at the tits on Page 3.

But other than that, it's a nice story.


This story has been around before, in slightly different form.

How did the breast removal surgery work, though? Pretty impressive that he has no scars. Hmmm. *Becomes dubious*
 
2013-07-22 07:29:58 AM

Matthew Keene: Yeah, I guess it's a real drag living in the wrong body. I'm 58, balding, slightly overweight. I wonder if they can help me. This is what I want to look like.

[i14.photobucket.com image 338x600]


26 minutes will get you started!
 
2013-07-22 07:34:29 AM

octopied: How did the breast removal surgery work, though? Pretty impressive that he has no scars


Get a good surgeon doing the work and not going to be much in the way of scars. Also there's always Photoshop.
 
2013-07-22 07:40:54 AM

WhyteRaven74: octopied: How did the breast removal surgery work, though? Pretty impressive that he has no scars

Get a good surgeon doing the work and not going to be much in the way of scars. Also there's always Photoshop.


I am skeptical that after a month they would even be completely healed from something like that.
 
2013-07-22 07:42:35 AM

doofusgumby: xellas84: Rincewind53: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.

I'm still of the mindset that you have 'biological sex' and then 'mental illness'.  Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less.  And if you disagree... well then you be nuts.

Then again, if that's their choice, I suppose they are entitled to it.  I mean, we've got people who choose to get metal shoved through their junk too, it's just yet another expensive body mod.  But I don't legitimize it by saying that it's anything but someone who's mildly crazy getting support from people who should be trying to talk them back into sense.  This is basically like someone saying they're an alchoholic and having their friends and family hand them 40's instead of getting them proper help.

Welcome to the dustbin of history. Your "mindset" is now one of prejudice and ignorance.

People who feel they are the wrong sex are driven crazy by people like you, usualy in their own family.


Really?  I'd think that paying attention to physical reality is kind of important.

These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek insisting they're a vulcan and having their ears pointed and refusing to acknowledge that they are human.  If that happened, people around them would rightly say "Hey, no you aren't.  See, your genetics prove it."  Same thing here... they have a mental problem that doesn't line up with physical reality.  Someone should be pointing to these people and saying "No, see, you aren't a woman, you were born with a penis, you need to accept that yes, you ARE a male, and that the part of your brain saying otherwise is not normal and you should ignore it."

As posted elsewhere, we have disorders in the mind that make people insist that they are an amputee and their limbs aren't supposed to be there.  Surgeons won't remove those offending limbs now will they?  This is a form of mental illness.  A mild one to be certain, and these people are no danger to themselves or others.  Hell they have a right to request whatever mods they want to their own bodies, but let's not treat it as anything but a disorder.  Remember, the definition of disorder is "a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions", and having your brain insist that your body is the wrong gender is definitely a disruption in mental health.
 
2013-07-22 07:49:58 AM
Something doesn't sit right with these pictures. Bone structure and muscle development looks too masculine and feminine.
 
2013-07-22 07:50:29 AM
As I grew up I always felt like something wasn't right with me.  I seemed fit and strong and athletically gifted so I was placed into lots of sports programs but it never felt "right" and was always "forced".  Then one day I realized I was a messed up lazy fark born in the wrong body.  Luckily my parents were supportive and helped me fund my change from an athlete to an off balance and alcoholic slob. Thanksh dad!  (hic!)
 
2013-07-22 07:50:40 AM
Ahh, it's one of "these" threads again.

Us trans people, we get tons of psychotherapy.  We get more therapy than you can shake a stick at.  WPATH standards of care mandate a ton of psychological work before you can even consider hormonal/surgical intervention.

There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention.  You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting.  Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS!  We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide.  Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.
 
2013-07-22 07:50:48 AM
And of course Lola by The Kinks is on the radio right now........
 
2013-07-22 07:51:13 AM

doofusgumby: ...Welcome to the dustbin of history. Your "mindset" is now one of prejudice and ignorance.
People who feel they are the wrong sex are driven crazy by people like you, usualy in their own family.


Welcome to Fark.   Please don't feed the trolls, as easy as it is from atop that horse.
 
2013-07-22 07:53:46 AM
There was a great short story science fiction...  errrrr....  I can't recall wtf it was but sex changes were a one hour through=patient operation.  Anyway, Dad in the story is the last person to get a sex change after Mom (now dad2) and son (now daughter) and daughter (now son) pressure him into it.  He kills himself the next page.
 
2013-07-22 07:55:37 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Ahh, it's one of "these" threads again.

Us trans people, we get tons of psychotherapy.  We get more therapy than you can shake a stick at.  WPATH standards of care mandate a ton of psychological work before you can even consider hormonal/surgical intervention.

There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention.  You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting.  Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS!  We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide.  Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.


I'm just fine with that.  But now we're seeing people who don't even want it listed as a disorder, they want it listed as just a normal thing.  That's NOT NORMAL.  Normal people do not have suicidal thoughts due to something they were born with.  If I walked into a doctor and said "Hey, my hand makes me want to kill myself, can you cut it off for me?" then the doctor would rightly diagnose me as having a mental disorder.  The treatment may entail removal of my hand if no other option came up, but it is still a disorder.

I'm not suggesting the treatment not be available.  I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.
 
2013-07-22 07:56:53 AM

xellas84: Really?  I'd think that paying attention to physical reality is kind of important.

These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek insisting they're a vulcan and having their ears pointed and refusing to acknowledge that they are human.  If that happened, people around them would rightly say "Hey, no you aren't.  See, your genetics prove it."  Same thing here... they have a mental problem that doesn't line up with physical reality.  Someone should be pointing to these people and saying "No, see, you aren't a woman, you were born with a penis, you need to accept that yes, you ARE a male, and that the part of your brain saying otherwise is not normal and you should ignore it."

As posted elsewhere, we have disorders in the mind that make people insist that they are an amputee and their limbs aren't supposed to be there.  Surgeons won't remove those offending limbs now will they?  This is a form of mental illness.  A mild one to be certain, and these people are no danger to themselves or others.  Hell they have a right to request whatever mods they want to their own bodies, but let's not treat it as anything but a disorder.  Remember, the definition of disorder is "a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions", and having your brain insist that your body is the wrong gender is definitely a disruption in mental health.


Funny, the American Psychological Association no longer thinks that being transgender is a mental disorder.

But I'm sure you know better than the top reigning body of psychology in America.
 
2013-07-22 07:57:49 AM

xellas84: These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek


Isn't it great to wake up on a Monday morning and get to talk down about an entire group of people and talk like you have any idea what you're talking about?

I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.

Empathy isn't your strong suit is it?
 
2013-07-22 07:59:58 AM

FloydA: They are both pretty good looking kids.  Of course, since this story is in the Sun, it's probably completely made up and the two teens are Ukrainians or Bulgarians or something, and the Sun just stole the picture from their Facebook and made up the story to sell papers to their barely literate audience who only buy the paper to look at the tits on Page 3.


Is that wrong?
 
2013-07-22 08:01:20 AM
Good for them.
 
2013-07-22 08:01:49 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention. You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting. Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS! We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide. Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.


Are you still seeing a therapist?
 
2013-07-22 08:03:25 AM

WhyteRaven74: xellas84: These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek

Isn't it great to wake up on a Monday morning and get to talk down about an entire group of people and talk like you have any idea what you're talking about?


I've got an opinion.  This is Fark, where we're allowed to share those.  And it's on topic to the thread being discussed.  And I'm making a valid argument that gender should be limited to only biological gender, since quite frankly that's the only gender that can actually be verified without having someone do massive batteries of subjective testing that give fuzzy answers at best.  I fail to see how I'm talking down to anyone when I say "The guy with an XY chromosome pattern is male, and if he believes he's female that's a disorder".  That seems more a simple statement of fact.

I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.

Empathy isn't your strong suit is it?


Empathy that entails completely ignoring biological fact and inventing entirely new genders to try and explain something that's clearly a disorder?  Yep, I'm clearly very bad at that.
 
2013-07-22 08:03:39 AM

xellas84: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Ahh, it's one of "these" threads again.

Us trans people, we get tons of psychotherapy.  We get more therapy than you can shake a stick at.  WPATH standards of care mandate a ton of psychological work before you can even consider hormonal/surgical intervention.

There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention.  You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting.  Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS!  We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide.  Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.

I'm just fine with that.  But now we're seeing people who don't even want it listed as a disorder, they want it listed as just a normal thing.  That's NOT NORMAL.  Normal people do not have suicidal thoughts due to something they were born with.  If I walked into a doctor and said "Hey, my hand makes me want to kill myself, can you cut it off for me?" then the doctor would rightly diagnose me as having a mental disorder.  The treatment may entail removal of my hand if no other option came up, but it is still a disorder.

I'm not suggesting the treatment not be available.  I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.


I'm actually cool with that.  It *IS* a disorder, and can be pretty damn crippling.  I think the big push is to move it out of the mental disorder camp, and more into the physical disorder area.  There's some medical reasoning behind that, re: brain scans and hormonal balances.

Moving GID from a mental to a physical disorder makes treatment a little easier, when the extremes of medical intervention are needed.  It takes away "Chopping up a body for mental reasons" and replaces it with "resolving a birth defect".

I got a little jumpy, coz the bigot crowd tends to use "it's a mental disorder" as an excuse to not treat GID.
 
2013-07-22 08:07:10 AM

xellas84: 'm just fine with that.  But now we're seeing people who don't even want it listed as a disorder, they want it listed as just a normal thing.  That's NOT NORMAL.  Normal people do not have suicidal thoughts due to something they were born with.  If I walked into a doctor and said "Hey, my hand makes me want to kill myself, can you cut it off for me?" then the doctor would rightly diagnose me as having a mental disorder.  The treatment may entail removal of my hand if no other option came up, but it is still a disorder.

I'm not suggesting the treatment not be available.  I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.


Too late! You lost, it's no longer listed as a disorder.

And yes, it's not normal, from a statistical perspective. But, for that matter, statistically neither is homosexuality, being black, or any other minority grouping you like.

My grandfather was a neuroendocrinologist for decades. During that time, he held several people transition, including one woman transition to a man. He's a renowed scientist in his field. He knows more than most anyone else about neuroendocrinology (the study of hormones in the brain, which is majorly important when it comes to being transgender). He doesn't believe it's a disorder at all, just a fact that some people are born with the wrong gender's hormones and brain patterns. But I guess he doesn't know anything, because you're so damn clear on the issue.

I suggest you have a nice long chat with one of Fark's transpeople. There are already some of them in the thread. Have a chat with them about how they're mentally ill. Tell them they have a disorder and they need to be cured.
 
2013-07-22 08:08:27 AM

xellas84: These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek insisting they're a vulcan and having their ears pointed and refusing to acknowledge that they are human. If that happened, people around them would rightly say "Hey, no you aren't. See, your genetics prove it." Same thing here... they have a mental problem that doesn't line up with physical reality. Someone should be pointing to these people and saying "No, see, you aren't a woman, you were born with a penis, you need to accept that yes, you ARE a male, and that the part of your brain saying otherwise is not normal and you should ignore it."

As posted elsewhere, we have disorders in the mind that make people insist that they are an amputee and their limbs aren't supposed to be there. Surgeons won't remove those offending limbs now will they? This is a form of mental illness. A mild one to be certain, and these people are no danger to themselves or others. Hell they have a right to request whatever mods they want to their own bodies, but let's not treat it as anything but a disorder. Remember, the definition of disorder is "a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions", and having your brain insist that your body is the wrong gender is definitely a disruption in mental health.


The spectrum of mental function is so vast that defining "normal" is extremely subjective.  Left-handedness used to be considered a disorder.  Up until very recently, homosexuality used to be considered a disorder.  Genetics is one big craps shoot.  The dice may be weighted to varying degrees in some cases, but that doesn't mean it's inconceivable for something else to come up.  Sometimes the body builds a rod, but the brain didn't get the message and it wires itself for a slot.  Gender is dictated more by hormones than genetics; hormones that are present in both genders.  The genetics are just there to say "I'd like an extra helping of Testosterone, please".  But sometimes the body just flips them off and spits in their drink.

So, the difference between this and your "Vulcan" example is that the human body carries the hormones necessary to be either gender, so there is really nothing stopping someone from being born one way and feeling like the other.  Conversely, Vulcans are a made-up species.  I agree that "otherkin" are delusional attention-seekers piggybacking on a legitimate mental condition in order to claim some sort of validity.  It is entirely possible for a person to be born the opposite gender.  It is not so much possible for them to be born a wolf.
 
2013-07-22 08:08:57 AM

kwame: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention. You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting. Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS! We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide. Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.

Are you still seeing a therapist?


Yup.  Severe GID tends to bring about other mental problems, and they don't go away just because you start hormones and get your bits fixed.

Thankfully, Veterans Affairs takes GID pretty seriously, and they cover all my therapist needs.
 
2013-07-22 08:09:52 AM

xellas84: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Ahh, it's one of "these" threads again.

Us trans people, we get tons of psychotherapy.  We get more therapy than you can shake a stick at.  WPATH standards of care mandate a ton of psychological work before you can even consider hormonal/surgical intervention.

There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention.  You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting.  Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS!  We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide.  Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.

I'm just fine with that.  But now we're seeing people who don't even want it listed as a disorder, they want it listed as just a normal thing.  That's NOT NORMAL.  Normal people do not have suicidal thoughts due to something they were born with.  If I walked into a doctor and said "Hey, my hand makes me want to kill myself, can you cut it off for me?" then the doctor would rightly diagnose me as having a mental disorder.  The treatment may entail removal of my hand if no other option came up, but it is still a disorder.

I'm not suggesting the treatment not be available.  I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.




Bullshiat. It's not a "social agenda" to protect any human being from discrimination and stigma from bigoted farks like you who insist that being TG is a "mental illness".

Genetics and epigenetics shape sex and gender. It's a natural process where sometimes the brain structure/patterning doesn't match the chromosomes during in utero development. Show me how therapy can be used to change brain structure. I'll wait.
 
2013-07-22 08:13:43 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I'm actually cool with that. It *IS* a disorder, and can be pretty damn crippling. I think the big push is to move it out of the mental disorder camp, and more into the physical disorder area. There's some medical reasoning behind that, re: brain scans and hormonal balances.

Moving GID from a mental to a physical disorder makes treatment a little easier, when the extremes of medical intervention are needed. It takes away "Chopping up a body for mental reasons" and replaces it with "resolving a birth defect".

I got a little jumpy, coz the bigot crowd tends to use "it's a mental disorder" as an excuse to not treat GID.


I'm 100% cool with people getting treatment in the pattern you described.  I'm also fine with translating it to a physical disorder, so long as there's research backing it that shows that's what it is.  What I'm not fine with is seeing some of the agendas out there that push for us to expand the male/female gender roles to include entirely new genders, which is absurd.  I'm also not fine with people trivializing the surgeries and moving them away from last-ditch treatments, which is what I fear would happen if this was removed from the list of disorders.  A gender reassignment surgery is a MAJOR undertaking and should not be something that's done without solid medical causes, any more than a heart transplant should.

As for those who actually went through it?  No offense, probably wouldn't want to kiss a MtF transgender even post-op, but I'll have a drink with ya no problems, and I hold no ill will towards you.
 
2013-07-22 08:14:26 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Thankfully, Veterans Affairs takes GID pretty seriously, and they cover all my therapist needs.


That's good.  I always wondered about the follow-through after surgery like that.
 
2013-07-22 08:14:36 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: FloydA: They are both pretty good looking kids.  Of course, since this story is in the Sun, it's probably completely made up and the two teens are Ukrainians or Bulgarians or something, and the Sun just stole the picture from their Facebook and made up the story to sell papers to their barely literate audience who only buy the paper to look at the tits on Page 3.

Is that wrong?


Yes. One should never pay for pictures of tits.

HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.


That right there is sometimes part of the problem.
 
2013-07-22 08:15:10 AM

xellas84: "The guy with an XY chromosome pattern is male, and if he believes he's female that's a disorder". That seems more a simple statement of fact.


Funny thing about that, if the Y chromosome doesn't work right or some of the gender differentiation process goes askew, you get someone who is female yet has XY chromosomes. See everyone starts out female, it's not until a gene on the Y chromosome kicks things off you get differentiation. Of course it doesn't always kick off or it does but it doesn't go anywhere or doesn't go as far as it should. It's a condition known as androgen insensitivity syndrome, and it's as far as genetic disorders go, not entirely that rare. Interesting thing is, a great many women who have it have no idea they have it.
 
2013-07-22 08:15:22 AM

xellas84: doofusgumby: xellas84: Rincewind53: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.

I'm still of the mindset that you have 'biological sex' and then 'mental illness'.  Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less.  And if you disagree... well then you be nuts.

Then again, if that's their choice, I suppose they are entitled to it.  I mean, we've got people who choose to get metal shoved through their junk too, it's just yet another expensive body mod.  But I don't legitimize it by saying that it's anything but someone who's mildly crazy getting support from people who should be trying to talk them back into sense.  This is basically like someone saying they're an alchoholic and having their friends and family hand them 40's instead of getting them proper help.

Welcome to the dustbin of history. Your "mindset" is now one of prejudice and ignorance.

People who feel they are the wrong sex are driven crazy by people like you, usualy in their own family.

Really?  I'd think that paying attention to physical reality is kind of important.

These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek insisting they're a vulcan and having their ears pointed and refusing to acknowledge that they are human.  If that happened, people around them would rightly say "Hey, no you aren't.  See, your genetics prove it."  Same thing here... they have a mental problem that doesn't line up with physical reality.  Someone should be pointing to these people and saying "No, see, you aren't a woman, you were born with a penis, you need to accept that yes, you ARE a male, and that the part of your brain saying otherwise is not normal and you should ignore it."

As posted elsewhere, we have disorders in the mind that make people insist that they are an amputee and their limbs aren't supposed to be there.  Surgeons won't remove those offending limbs now will they?  This is a form of mental illness.  A mild one to be certain, and these people are no danger to themselves or others.  Hell they have a right to request whatever mods they want to their own bodies, but let's not treat it as anything but a disorder.  Remember, the definition of disorder is "a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions", and having your brain insist that your body is the wrong gender is definitely a disruption in mental health.


And you've decided this in the basis of exactly what expertise in psychology? Oh wait - none.

I think I'll go with the people who first of all understand the difference between sex and gender and second do actually have degrees and conduct research and so forth who have found biological differences in the brains of trans people and who have determined that transitioning alleviates much of the distress trans people experience. Of course they still have to deal with a shiat ton of bigotry and ignorance.
 
2013-07-22 08:19:22 AM

skatedrifter: I would love to be the meat in that sandwich.


I think it got tossed.
 
2013-07-22 08:20:06 AM

kwame: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Thankfully, Veterans Affairs takes GID pretty seriously, and they cover all my therapist needs.

That's good.  I always wondered about the follow-through after surgery like that.


It depends on the team, but typically, trans people get watched VERY closely post-transition.  Lots of trans folks have the idea that the world will change and everything will be perfect after they have the final surgeries, and....that just doesn't happen.  Every trans person I know, post-surgery, continued with therapy.
 
2013-07-22 08:23:01 AM

angrycrank: And you've decided this in the basis of exactly what expertise in psychology? Oh wait - none.

I think I'll go with the people who first of all understand the difference between sex and gender and second do actually have degrees and conduct research and so forth who have found biological differences in the brains of trans people and who have determined that transitioning alleviates much of the distress trans people experience. Of course they still have to deal with a shiat ton of bigotry and ignorance.


First off, as you'll note, I've not claimed to be a psychiatrist.  I even openly stated it's my opinions.  As for where I got that, there was a link earlier in the thread that I was referencing.

Second, if you'll notice my previous posts, which I note you are ignoring and refusing to reply to, I've stated I have no issues with treatments as they stand.  Surgery is a valid option, so long as it's actually vetted with proper psychiatric treatment first.  What I don't agree with is that this is NORMAL.  It's a disorder, a treatable one and certainly one that shouldn't be ignored, but it's a disorder nonetheless.  And surgery shouldn't be front-line treatment for this, as IsThatYourFinalAnswer said, there are transgenders who can be treated with medication and no surgery and live happy lives.  That's better than surgery and should be done first, any other opinion is insanity as sex change surgeries are major undertakings from my (admittedly limited) understanding.

The problem is once we stop treating it as a 'disorder' and simply as a 'difference' then you get problems.  Vetting standards slip, doctors don't consider other options, people push for surgery FIRST and other options second.  That's what I don't want to see.  You'll note that nowhere in this thread have I suggested these people be DENIED treatment.
 
2013-07-22 08:23:26 AM

thamike: Luke's got birthin' hips.


Yup.
 
2013-07-22 08:24:40 AM

Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.

img.poptower.com

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.
 
2013-07-22 08:25:55 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: kwame: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Thankfully, Veterans Affairs takes GID pretty seriously, and they cover all my therapist needs.

That's good.  I always wondered about the follow-through after surgery like that.

It depends on the team, but typically, trans people get watched VERY closely post-transition.  Lots of trans folks have the idea that the world will change and everything will be perfect after they have the final surgeries, and....that just doesn't happen.  Every trans person I know, post-surgery, continued with therapy.


Here's to you hopefully having a higher quality of life after your surgery.  I'm glad you treated the decision with appropriate weight, and I hope the treatment helps you as much as you hoped for.  I really don't want to come across as having any actual ill-will towards you or any other transgendered person.

Also, it's good to hear that it's common to have post-op therapy, I'd wondered about that myself too.
 
2013-07-22 08:26:41 AM

xellas84: angrycrank: And you've decided this in the basis of exactly what expertise in psychology? Oh wait - none.

I think I'll go with the people who first of all understand the difference between sex and gender and second do actually have degrees and conduct research and so forth who have found biological differences in the brains of trans people and who have determined that transitioning alleviates much of the distress trans people experience. Of course they still have to deal with a shiat ton of bigotry and ignorance.

First off, as you'll note, I've not claimed to be a psychiatrist.  I even openly stated it's my opinions.  As for where I got that, there was a link earlier in the thread that I was referencing.

Second, if you'll notice my previous posts, which I note you are ignoring and refusing to reply to, I've stated I have no issues with treatments as they stand.  Surgery is a valid option, so long as it's actually vetted with proper psychiatric treatment first.  What I don't agree with is that this is NORMAL.  It's a disorder, a treatable one and certainly one that shouldn't be ignored, but it's a disorder nonetheless.  And surgery shouldn't be front-line treatment for this, as IsThatYourFinalAnswer said, there are transgenders who can be treated with medication and no surgery and live happy lives.  That's better than surgery and should be done first, any other opinion is insanity as sex change surgeries are major undertakings from my (admittedly limited) understanding.

The problem is once we stop treating it as a 'disorder' and simply as a 'difference' then you get problems.  Vetting standards slip, doctors don't consider other options, people push for surgery FIRST and other options second.  That's what I don't want to see.  You'll note that nowhere in this thread have I suggested these people be DENIED treatment.


You have no idea what you're talking about. Face it. Multiple people have told you that there is  hard scientific evidence that it's an innate feature that you're born with.

Your "normal" is a ridiculous creation of your imagination. No one is normal.
 
2013-07-22 08:29:17 AM

Rincewind53: You have no idea what you're talking about. Face it. Multiple people have told you that there is hard scientific evidence that it's an innate feature that you're born with.

Your "normal" is a ridiculous creation of your imagination. No one is normal.


He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surgery. It's a valid question.
 
2013-07-22 08:33:24 AM

Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger


See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.
 
2013-07-22 08:33:44 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Severe GID tends to bring about other mental problems


Causal, or co-morbid?
 
2013-07-22 08:34:58 AM

Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.


I see lines of hair on gay people all the time. Explain that one, smarty.
 
2013-07-22 08:35:36 AM
Tumunga:  This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

Now THAT picture is disturbing and disgusting.
Tobacco addicts should be treated with psychotherapy, not enabled with cancer sticks.
So gross, look what it does to the skin.
 
2013-07-22 08:36:20 AM
Jesus eff christ there's too much derp in this thread for me to deal with this morning

...I'm heading over the entertainment tab
 
2013-07-22 08:37:38 AM

Matthew Keene: Yeah, I guess it's a real drag living in the wrong body. I'm 58, balding, slightly overweight. I wonder if they can help me. This is what I want to look like.

[i14.photobucket.com image 338x600]


They could pull it off, only if you want your pecker clipped.
 
2013-07-22 08:38:35 AM
xellas84:Here's to you hopefully having a higher quality of life after your surgery.  I'm glad you treated the decision with appropriate weight, and I hope the treatment helps you as much as you hoped for.  I really don't want to come across as having any actual ill-will towards you or any other transgendered person.

Also, it's good to hear that it's common to have post-op therapy, I'd wondered about that myself too.


I'm honestly not picking up any ill-will from you.  There's some "hard truth" in what you say, and honestly, hard truth is something the trans community as a whole has some issues with.

By medical and scientific definitions, we are not "normal" people.  Trans people who are having difficulty resolving the brain/body disagreement (that's what the new DSM covers), are not "normal", when compared to a bog standard healthy person.  It's neither a good, nor bad thing....it just is.

Thankfully, we have a treatment regimen that can help trans people.  It's not the best, but, it works for the most part. There's actually been examples of people who intentionally evade the standards of care, who end up with huge regrets (folks who go overseas for surgery, to evade the psychotherapy requirements of WPATH).

The best thing we can hope for, is for transgender to move from mental disorder to simple physical disorder.  Something no different than, say, removing an extra finger.  If you're happy with the extra finger and it doesn't bother you, huzzah, keep it.  If it bugs you, get it removed.  Same with sex organs.
 
2013-07-22 08:39:43 AM

octopied: FloydA: They are both pretty good looking kids.  Of course, since this story is in the Sun, it's probably completely made up and the two teens are Ukrainians or Bulgarians or something, and the Sun just stole the picture from their Facebook and made up the story to sell papers to their barely literate audience who only buy the paper to look at the tits on Page 3.

But other than that, it's a nice story.

This story has been around before, in slightly different form.

How did the breast removal surgery work, though? Pretty impressive that he has no scars. Hmmm. *Becomes dubious*


Rattle snake venom, and a liposuction kit.
 
2013-07-22 08:40:03 AM

Rincewind53: Your "normal" is a ridiculous creation of your imagination. No one is normal.


Do you know what a norm is?

norm (nôrm)n. A standard, model, or pattern regarded as typical: the current middle-class norm of two children per family.
nor•mal (nôrˈməl)adj. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.
Technically, most people are normal.  That's what it means.
 
2013-07-22 08:40:29 AM

WhyteRaven74: Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger

See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.


Actually a few google searches show the DSM-5, still the current standard for the APA, shows gender dysphoria (the new title for GID) as a disorder.  Clearly it's not a universal consent like you are representing it to be, otherwise it would have been declassified entirely as of the DSM-5 instead of updated with a new name and left on the list of disorders as of may 2013.

I wonder if you know quite as much as you claim to know, seeing as you are making some fairly incorrect statements yourself.
 
2013-07-22 08:41:53 AM

sendtodave: Rincewind53: Your "normal" is a ridiculous creation of your imagination. No one is normal.

Do you know what a norm is?

norm (nôrm)n. A standard, model, or pattern regarded as typical: the current middle-class norm of two children per family.
nor•mal (nôrˈməl)adj. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.
Technically, most people are normal.  That's what it means.


By your definition, every person has aspects of them that are normal, and every person has aspects of them that are abnormal. Fixating on a single one of them and declaring that a person is "abnormal" as a result is absurd.
 
2013-07-22 08:41:55 AM
I guess this just goes to show that what most children need to look good is lots of surgery and tons of hormones.

/wish I'd known when I was a kid.
 
2013-07-22 08:46:47 AM

Rincewind53: He doesn't believe it's a disorder at all, just a fact that some people are born with the wrong gender's hormones and brain patterns.


Isn't that just about the definition of a disorder?
 
2013-07-22 08:47:24 AM

sendtodave: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Severe GID tends to bring about other mental problems

Causal, or co-morbid?


Difficult to say, and not much research done into the area yet.

It's been found that resolving the gender dis-congruity doesn't resolve the associated mental disorders, so the lean is towards co-morbid.

GID seems to be a focal trigger/trauma point, that causes other mental issues to be more severe than usual.  What could have been simple seasonal depression gets amplified into MDD, from having to deal with GID issues and problems.
 
2013-07-22 08:47:56 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: xellas84:Here's to you hopefully having a higher quality of life after your surgery.  I'm glad you treated the decision with appropriate weight, and I hope the treatment helps you as much as you hoped for.  I really don't want to come across as having any actual ill-will towards you or any other transgendered person.

Also, it's good to hear that it's common to have post-op therapy, I'd wondered about that myself too.

I'm honestly not picking up any ill-will from you.  There's some "hard truth" in what you say, and honestly, hard truth is something the trans community as a whole has some issues with.

By medical and scientific definitions, we are not "normal" people.  Trans people who are having difficulty resolving the brain/body disagreement (that's what the new DSM covers), are not "normal", when compared to a bog standard healthy person.  It's neither a good, nor bad thing....it just is.

Thankfully, we have a treatment regimen that can help trans people.  It's not the best, but, it works for the most part. There's actually been examples of people who intentionally evade the standards of care, who end up with huge regrets (folks who go overseas for surgery, to evade the psychotherapy requirements of WPATH).

The best thing we can hope for, is for transgender to move from mental disorder to simple physical disorder.  Something no different than, say, removing an extra finger.  If you're happy with the extra finger and it doesn't bother you, huzzah, keep it.  If it bugs you, get it removed.  Same with sex organs.


Honestly, I'd hope the psychotherapy requirements stay pretty firm.  Like you said earlier (and I'm assuming you know a LOT more than me), there's people who can be treated without the surgery.  Surgery of ANY sort should stay firmly behind medication as a treatment option in any scenario really, especially large-scale surgeries like gender reassignment.  But like you said, if the science says it's a physical problem, list it that way and treat appropriately.  I just don't want this to become a new cultural segment where people start trying to make it not a disorder but a choice, because down that path lies madness.

Admittedly, I'm probably wrong on some of this stuff, I'm no medical professional (just related to a few).  As someone who has the condition yourself, do you think I'm being unreasonable in what I'm saying?  I do try to actually have an open mind and would gladly discuss and debate, especially something where I'm admittedly short on facts.
 
2013-07-22 08:54:05 AM

xellas84: WhyteRaven74: Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger

See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.

Actually a few google searches show the DSM-5, still the current standard for the APA, shows gender dysphoria (the new title for GID) as a disorder.  Clearly it's not a universal consent like you are representing it to be, otherwise it would have been declassified entirely as of the DSM-5 instead of updated with a new name and left on the list of disorders as of may 2013.

I wonder if you know quite as much as you claim to know, seeing as you are making some fairly incorrect statements yourself.


Ohh, I *knew* you were going to mention this, everyone does when DSM gets tossed into the mix.  I'll give the brief run-down for you.

GID in and of itself has been declassified.  Having issues with GID is still classified as a disorder.  See my finger example above.  If you were born with six fingers on one hand, and are totally happy with it, you don't have a disorder.  If having six fingers makes you upset, then the being upset part is the disorder.

Part of that is because, if we totally declassified GID as a disorder, it'd be damn near impossible to get treatment for it. Doing it this way lets us keep an ICD code for people who have a problem, while declassifying gender identity in and of itself.
 
2013-07-22 08:57:43 AM

Ed Grubermann: Matthew Keene: Yeah, I guess it's a real drag living in the wrong body. I'm 58, balding, slightly overweight. I wonder if they can help me. This is what I want to look like.

[i14.photobucket.com image 338x600]

I'm sure QA can help you out.


I wish. Then I could watch as you refuse to use anti-aging technology, right?
 
2013-07-22 09:03:21 AM
Kind of cruel irony that, if a teen decides he/she is transgendered, it's the absolute BEST and WORST time to make that decision. Worst in that trying to make any life and body changing decisions when one is only just figuring out his/her sexual identity is a terrible idea; and best that, if one wants to change sex, it's more effective before puberty completely sets in.

As for me, I've had a hard time understanding gender identity, because I feel that if I woke up the next day as the other sex, I'd be cool with it, and I'd learn to get along and identify as a chick. Just call me Lord/Lady Orlando. :)
 
2013-07-22 09:03:30 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: hh, I *knew* you were going to mention this, everyone does when DSM gets tossed into the mix. I'll give the brief run-down for you.

GID in and of itself has been declassified. Having issues with GID is still classified as a disorder. See my finger example above. If you were born with six fingers on one hand, and are totally happy with it, you don't have a disorder. If having six fingers makes you upset, then the being upset part is the disorder.

Part of that is because, if we totally declassified GID as a disorder, it'd be damn near impossible to get treatment for it. Doing it this way lets us keep an ICD code for people who have a problem, while declassifying gender identity in and of itself.


Isn't that how most (all?) disorders work?

They aren't disorders unless they negatively impact your life?
 
2013-07-22 09:03:52 AM
Can't we get more photos that make the penis confused and angry?
 
2013-07-22 09:08:41 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: xellas84: WhyteRaven74: Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger

See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.

Actually a few google searches show the DSM-5, still the current standard for the APA, shows gender dysphoria (the new title for GID) as a disorder.  Clearly it's not a universal consent like you are representing it to be, otherwise it would have been declassified entirely as of the DSM-5 instead of updated with a new name and left on the list of disorders as of may 2013.

I wonder if you know quite as much as you claim to know, seeing as you are making some fairly incorrect statements yourself.

Ohh, I *knew* you were going to mention this, everyone does when DSM gets tossed into the mix.  I'll give the brief run-down for you.

GID in and of itself has been declassified.  Having issues with GID is still classified as a disorder.  See my finger example above.  If you were born with six fingers on one hand, and are totally happy with it, you don't have a disorder.  If having six fingers makes you upset, then the being upset part is the disorder.

Part of that is because, if we totally declassified GID as a disorder, it'd be damn near impossible to get treatment for it. Doing it this way lets us keep an ICD code for people who have a problem, while declassifying gender identity in and of itself.


See, I honestly would like to see citation on this.  I'm honestly NOT being a dick about that, because I can't find any lists of changes, either from the DSM-5's website or from other searches, that show any changes other than changing the NAME of the disorder from GID to Gender Dysphoria and adding a childhood diagnosis for it that allows for different psychiatric evaluations.  In fact, the only thing I can find is that it was changed not because GID was declassified, but because the name was considered stigmatizing.  The fact that it's still listed as a disorder seem to me to state that the APA, and by extension at least a good portion of the psychiatric world, still considers it a form of disorder.

Please, if I'm missing something here link me, cause I'm getting a bit confused.
 
2013-07-22 09:09:58 AM
Welp, off to the politics tab I go.
 
2013-07-22 09:12:45 AM

sendtodave: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: hh, I *knew* you were going to mention this, everyone does when DSM gets tossed into the mix. I'll give the brief run-down for you.

GID in and of itself has been declassified. Having issues with GID is still classified as a disorder. See my finger example above. If you were born with six fingers on one hand, and are totally happy with it, you don't have a disorder. If having six fingers makes you upset, then the being upset part is the disorder.

Part of that is because, if we totally declassified GID as a disorder, it'd be damn near impossible to get treatment for it. Doing it this way lets us keep an ICD code for people who have a problem, while declassifying gender identity in and of itself.

Isn't that how most (all?) disorders work?

They aren't disorders unless they negatively impact your life?


"It Depends".  You can have structural disorders that don't impact life, that still nets a disorder label.  I've known folks who get diagnosed with ADD, yet it has no impact on life....it's just something that showed up on a test.
 
2013-07-22 09:14:52 AM
Good for them - to each their own, as long as it's not mine. I almost couldn't care less.

At least they won't procreate and have spawn with so many questions about their folks and themselves.
 
2013-07-22 09:15:07 AM
So she doesn't have tits and he doesn't have tits.... no wait...

He who's a she doesn't have tits... err...

She who....

fark it.  I give up.
 
2013-07-22 09:15:32 AM
... although, it does add a whole new dimension to pegging.
 
2013-07-22 09:16:12 AM
xellas84:See, I honestly would like to see citation on this.  I'm honestly NOT being a dick about that, because I can't find any lists of changes, either from the DSM-5's website or from other searches, that show any changes other than changing the NAME of the disord ...

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Gender%20Dysphoria%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf  for your sourcing.

Also, check yo' yahoo mail.
 
2013-07-22 09:36:21 AM

Rosyna: Can't we get more photos that make the penis confused and angry?


Yeah, I'm not ashamed to say if I hit it off with a post op male to female trans, and the surgery was good, I wouldn't let it bother.  Of course I'm married, so that's all hypothetical.

Former boy in TFA is pretty damn good looking.  If she dropped trou and still had a penis though, that'd turn me off.
 
2013-07-22 09:40:48 AM
The only problem I have with transfolks is that I know so many and all in different stages that I get all my pronouns all farked around. This has caused an embarrassing situation more than once.

That said, with the exception of two, maybe three, every person I know who'd transitioned were waaaaaaay easier to deal with afterwards than before. The remainder, well, their issues were bountiful and many, and had nothing to do with their gender.
 
2013-07-22 09:44:00 AM
Fake, fake, fake.

Hormones and surgery can do a lot of things but growing cartilage for the adams apple?
 
2013-07-22 09:45:18 AM
For anyone calling bullshiat on this article (I mean, they are still teens and not fully developed), look at the hips. I'm not a biology/anatomy major or anything. You can chop or build sexual organs, you can shave an adam's apple or brow bone, you can take hormones for hair growth. But you can't do anything about hip bones.


/Good for them, btw.
 
2013-07-22 09:46:29 AM

Tumunga: Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.
[img.poptower.com image 599x381]

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.


Me too. It's a guilty pleasure, but a FUNNY guilty pleasure! I can't get enough of Joan's foul mouth! She's an inspiration to me, lol! I don't see how Irwin puts up with her, lol!

As for the article, i found it suddenly dusty in my cubical. I am a FTM transgender, but I am keeping my parts (and not taking T) until after I have children. I feel very blessed to have a supportive hubby and friends. My family doesn't quite get it, but they aren't dicks about it either.
 
2013-07-22 09:46:46 AM

WhyteRaven74: Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger

See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.


Fair enough. I don't think most of us who ask that question have any animosity towards people who have to deal with this-it's just that the surgery part seems to be such a terrible solution.
 
2013-07-22 09:47:58 AM
They look happy.

Good for them!
 
2013-07-22 09:48:55 AM

Whiskey Pete: WhyteRaven74: Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger

See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.

Fair enough. I don't think most of us who ask that question have any animosity towards people who have to deal with this-it's just that the surgery part seems to be such a terrible solution.


....it just seems so Jocelyn Wildensteineey.
 
2013-07-22 09:57:18 AM

bencoon: The only problem I have with transfolks is that I know so many and all in different stages that I get all my pronouns all farked around. This has caused an embarrassing situation more than once.

That said, with the exception of two, maybe three, every person I know who'd transitioned were waaaaaaay easier to deal with afterwards than before. The remainder, well, their issues were bountiful and many, and had nothing to do with their gender.


It's all the attention and the Prozac.
 
2013-07-22 09:58:16 AM

charmbomb: For anyone calling bullshiat on this article (I mean, they are still teens and not fully developed), look at the hips. I'm not a biology/anatomy major or anything. You can chop or build sexual organs, you can shave an adam's apple or brow bone, you can take hormones for hair growth. But you can't do anything about hip bones.

/Good for them, btw.


It's not BS.. They're from Oklahoma and have been cited in numerous news articles:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Much_has_changed_in_year_for_ Bi xby_transgender_teen/20120603_11_a1_cutlin564530

http://now.msn.com/katie-hill-and-arin-andrews-are-teen-transgender- co uple

http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/5274-a-teen-love-story-unlike -a ny-other

http://www.medicaldaily.com/articles/13124/20121114/young-couple-fin ds -love-both-undergo-transgender.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/crazy-stupid-love-on-2 02 0-airing-friday-february-15-at-10-pm-on-abc/

(As you can see from the bottom article, this was the couple on 20/20 back in February).
 
2013-07-22 09:59:20 AM

Gunther: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

There's a difference between gender and sex. At a chromosomal level we're all stuck with the sex we're born with, that doesn't mean we can't identify more strongly with the different gender. Most of us are lucky enough to have gender and sex match up, for some people they're different.

Anyhow, it's not a big deal for you to refer to people as the gender they identify as rather than as the sex they were born, is it? Even if you personally can't understand why someone would want to make the transition it's not like it somehow takes away from your masculinity/femininity, any more than gay people getting married somehow undermines your straight marriage.


It's a big deal when a female doesn't have to sign up for Selective Service, isn't allowed in combat roles, etc.
 
2013-07-22 10:11:08 AM
A lot of people got marked with purple in this thread.
 
2013-07-22 10:39:00 AM

bhcompy: , isn't allowed in combat roles,


Well lucky for everyone that's being done away with. Indeed the Air Force did away with it years ago.
 
2013-07-22 10:47:42 AM

Rincewind53: Though he kept the bottom parts


im pro rights on the trans gender issue (none of my freaking business, but I support the happiness of my fellow human beings so I help where possible)
But how is that a male if the lower bits were not changed ? Ive seen plenty of dedicated females with muscles, facial hair, and tats - that were not in any way transgender (nor wish to be) some of them are pretty freaking ugly.

// both are hot, Id be lucky to get either end of that equation into bed ... the lack of change makes it even more interesting.
 
2013-07-22 10:48:26 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Something doesn't sit right with these pictures. Bone structure and muscle development looks too masculine and feminine.


I believe it-- the hips don't lie. The hips always give away especially the m2f transgenders for me. His hips are also unusual for a young man.
 
2013-07-22 10:49:43 AM

WhyteRaven74: bhcompy: , isn't allowed in combat roles,

Well lucky for everyone that's being done away with. Indeed the Air Force did away with it years ago.


Hopefully one day they can die for their country involuntarily while being drafted as well.
 
2013-07-22 10:52:01 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: That's great kids. Are you going to make a big deal out of it? Do you want me to make a big deal out of it?

No? Then enjoy. I'm glad you're happy.


This.

Cool story if true. Good for them.
 
2013-07-22 10:58:29 AM
When he was a she, it was nsfw to show the nipples.

Now she's a he and it is safe for work to show the nipples.

Why was it bad then, but not bad now?
 
2013-07-22 10:58:29 AM

xellas84: doofusgumby: xellas84: Rincewind53: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.

I'm still of the mindset that you have 'biological sex' and then 'mental illness'.  Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less.  And if you disagree... well then you be nuts.

Then again, if that's their choice, I suppose they are entitled to it.  I mean, we've got people who choose to get metal shoved through their junk too, it's just yet another expensive body mod.  But I don't legitimize it by saying that it's anything but someone who's mildly crazy getting support from people who should be trying to talk them back into sense.  This is basically like someone saying they're an alchoholic and having their friends and family hand them 40's instead of getting them proper help.

Welcome to the dustbin of history. Your "mindset" is now one of prejudice and ignorance.

People who feel they are the wrong sex are driven crazy by people like you, usualy in their own family.

Really?  I'd think that paying attention to physical reality is kind of important.

These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek insisting they're a vulcan and having their ears pointed and refusing to acknowledge that they are human.  If that happened, people around them would rightly say "Hey, no you aren't.  See, your genetics prove it."  Same thing here... they have a mental problem that doesn't line up with physical reality.  Someone should be pointing to these people and saying "No, see, you aren't a woman, you were born with a penis, you need to accept that yes, you ARE a male, and that the part of your brain saying otherwise is not normal and you should ignore it."

As posted elsewhere, we have disorders in the mind that make people insist that they are an amputee and their limbs aren't supposed to be there.  Surgeons won't remove those offending limbs now will they?  This is a form of mental illness.  A mild one to be certain, and these people are no danger to themselves or others.  Hell they have a right to request whatever mods they want to their own bodies, but let's not treat it as anything but a disorder.  Remember, the definition of disorder is "a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions", and having your brain insist that your body is the wrong gender is definitely a disruption in mental health.


I completely disagree with you, but that helps me see the other arguments. Although I *do* disagree, what you wrote was concise and makes sense without being emotional. I'm usually ready to jump down the throat of or be dismissive of this type of stance regarding gender. Thanks for the different perspective.
 
2013-07-22 11:04:40 AM

Gunther: Anyhow, it's not a big deal for you to refer to people as the gender they identify as rather than as the sex they were born, is it?


Ignacio Gonzalez de Arriba identified himself as the reincarnation of Christ. He got busted in Mexico fairly recently because his followers treated him like he was, and got all cult-y.

Perhaps it's not the best idea to mindlessly indulge someone's delusion of grandeur.
 
2013-07-22 11:11:29 AM

Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surgery. It's a valid question.


One person's mental illness is another person's physical deformity. Your mileage will vary.
 
2013-07-22 11:19:46 AM

Southern100: charmbomb: For anyone calling bullshiat on this article (I mean, they are still teens and not fully developed), look at the hips. I'm not a biology/anatomy major or anything. You can chop or build sexual organs, you can shave an adam's apple or brow bone, you can take hormones for hair growth. But you can't do anything about hip bones.

/Good for them, btw.

It's not BS.. They're from Oklahoma and have been cited in numerous news articles:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Much_has_changed_in_year_for_ Bi xby_transgender_teen/20120603_11_a1_cutlin564530

http://now.msn.com/katie-hill-and-arin-andrews-are-teen-transgender- co uple

http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/5274-a-teen-love-story-unlike -a ny-other

http://www.medicaldaily.com/articles/13124/20121114/young-couple-fin ds -love-both-undergo-transgender.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/crazy-stupid-love-on-2 02 0-airing-friday-february-15-at-10-pm-on-abc/

(As you can see from the bottom article, this was the couple on 20/20 back in February).


I wasn't saying it was BS. :)
I was meaning that you can tell they are transgender by other things than just hair or face structure.

I've seen them in multiple articles. Again, good for them. <3
 
2013-07-22 11:24:36 AM
Well, that's one way to solve the problem.
 
2013-07-22 11:45:09 AM
Still no cure for women not understanding men and men not understanding women.
 
2013-07-22 11:46:48 AM
And the first time they had sex they discovered that their surgically-cobbled-together genitals,  loose approximations of the real thing freakishly fused together from elbow skin, butt fat and cadaver cartilage, were almost useless for actual intercourse.  And suddenly it wasn't cool anymore.
 
2013-07-22 11:53:11 AM

Nineinchnosehair: I just watched a bit in the past couple of months on 20/20 or some such about a couple just like this here in the US.  Thought it was them.


I saw the same (and cool) story.  This is the same teenage couple.  They really are a cute couple and I wish them the best.  Their parents are awesome too!
 
2013-07-22 11:58:00 AM
I think people have trouble understanding trangender because we think of surgery and it involves so much pain. I know it's a total speculation, but I can't imagine feeling upset enough to undergo surgery, even if I were forced to live my life as a man rather than a woman. In fact, I've felt annoyed by the idea that there are behaviors for men and behaviors for women. Can't I just be a person? That seems to have been the movement for years, but this seems to go against the flow of that.

I think this is what just puzzles people who don't know any transgendered people in life and don't have those feelings either. It's different than the reaction to people who are gay, because, honestly, what is the harm in bumping uglies with a different set of parts? But surgery and hormones and therapy, are, well, frightening and kind of alarming. It's hard to understand feeling the need for that, and thus the mind goes toward those people who want their limbs amputated and munchausen's and the like.

As someone who is not transgendered and has been a bit skeptical, the feeling that there must be some other way comes up. I'll accept that there isn't, but I think there's more going on than petty squeamishness for many people. Maybe it's this kind of reaction that leads people to try to treat cancer with holistic medicine-- the overwhelming feeling that horrible chemicals like chemotherapy couldn't possibly help matters.
 
2013-07-22 12:00:26 PM

mafiageek1980: Tumunga: Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.
[img.poptower.com image 599x381]

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.

Me too. It's a guilty pleasure, but a FUNNY guilty pleasure! I can't get enough of Joan's foul mouth! She's an inspiration to me, lol! I don't see how Irwin puts up with her, lol!

As for the article, i found it suddenly dusty in my cubical. I am a FTM transgender, but I am keeping my parts (and not taking T) until after I have children. I feel very blessed to have a supportive hubby and friends. My family doesn't quite get it, but they aren't dicks about it either.


So you want to be a girl to have babies, then change to a guy?  Interesting.
 
2013-07-22 12:01:56 PM

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: Bullshiat. It's not a "social agenda" to protect any human being from discrimination and stigma from bigoted farks like you who insist that being TG is a "mental illness".

Genetics and epigenetics shape sex and gender. It's a natural process where sometimes the brain structure/patterning doesn't match the chromosomes during in utero development. Show me how therapy can be used to change brain structure. I'll wait.


I think he's referring to the social agenda to normalize it, as it "Hey, you don't like being a girl? You should get a sex change".  I've been seeing a ton of girls who in the past would be considered a tomboy seriously thinking that they need a sex change.  Yes, the psychologist will know they don't, and won't recommend surgery for them, but its reinforcing the idea that, "Don't like your body a little bit? Surgury can fix it!". There needs to be more information out there that this is a drastic permanent change, not something to be done on a whim.  In a way its someone like all the women who get breast enlargements, because the feel they don't like their body, then, boom, they still don't like their body, its an endless cycle. This could be dangerous if it ever becomes "easy" to switch genders. People living their lives back and forth, never comfortable with what they are.
 
2013-07-22 12:07:31 PM
I think we all have to come to terms with who we are.  It's hard enough for most of us, but to have your body not resemble your mental image of yourself in such a HUGE and massive way - It's not quite being a string-bean who wants to be a muscle-man, or a short woman who would like to be a bit taller.

I figure anyone committed enough to go under the knife to fix what they think is wrong probably has thought about it long and hard [no pun intended] before going thru with it.

WRT to the lower surgery question, it's my understanding that it's much more satisfactory to go from M to F and much less so from F to M - it's mechanics, nerve endings, etc.  Which is why you see more 'guys with pies' - or as one guy confided to me "Why keep it?  Multiple Orgasms."
 
2013-07-22 12:12:32 PM
1) Classification as a mental illness is in part artifact of culture and relies on a subject concept of 'normal' - which changes over time.  So it's not useful to discuss the issue in terms of mental illness.  It's easier to focus on whether or not the individual is happy (assuming they're not a danger to themselves or others).

2) Body Identity Disorder (BID)  issues are almost always accompanied by clinical depression, bipolar disorder and other problems - surgery to achieve the desired form does not have any impact on these separate issues(*).

3) Depression may have induced the BID, not the other way around.  This also accounts for brain differences.  These studies are not well publicized as they're not considered politically correct(**).

Summary:  Some percentage, theoretically large, may simply be suffering from depression or related maladies, and using TG as a form of largely ineffective mental self-medication.  Current social climate makes this claim politically incorrect, but failing to diagnose an individual properly and instead, indulging irrational beliefs that do not result in a higher quality of life seems negligent.

* - Studies on depression and other issues are primarily on male-to-female TG's in the US, results from other countries vary wildly, implying that culture plays a larger part in gender roles than biology or individual psychology.  For some reason, few female-to-male TG studies exist?

** - Self-loathing, detachment from self, desiring major life changes are all symptoms of depression.  Belief that one is in the wrong body can be considered a valid cause for these feelings, though item #2 indicates surgical changes don't actually fix things, the depression is still there.
 
2013-07-22 12:20:38 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: The best thing we can hope for, is for transgender to move from mental disorder to simple physical disorder. Something no different than, say, removing an extra finger. If you're happy with the extra finger and it doesn't bother you, huzzah, keep it. If it bugs you, get it removed. Same with sex organs.


I thought I had cartoon dysphoria. I have a thumb and four fingers on my hand. Thanks for your blessing to get my index amputated.
 
2013-07-22 12:21:01 PM

quietwalker: 1) Classification as a mental illness is in part artifact of culture and relies on a subject concept of 'normal' - which changes over time.  So it's not useful to discuss the issue in terms of mental illness.  It's easier to focus on whether or not the individual is happy (assuming they're not a danger to themselves or others).

2) Body Identity Disorder (BID)  issues are almost always accompanied by clinical depression, bipolar disorder and other problems - surgery to achieve the desired form does not have any impact on these separate issues(*).

3) Depression may have induced the BID, not the other way around.  This also accounts for brain differences.  These studies are not well publicized as they're not considered politically correct(**).

Summary:  Some percentage, theoretically large, may simply be suffering from depression or related maladies, and using TG as a form of largely ineffective mental self-medication.  Current social climate makes this claim politically incorrect, but failing to diagnose an individual properly and instead, indulging irrational beliefs that do not result in a higher quality of life seems negligent.

* - Studies on depression and other issues are primarily on male-to-female TG's in the US, results from other countries vary wildly, implying that culture plays a larger part in gender roles than biology or individual psychology.  For some reason, few female-to-male TG studies exist?

** - Self-loathing, detachment from self, desiring major life changes are all symptoms of depression.  Belief that one is in the wrong body can be considered a valid cause for these feelings, though item #2 indicates surgical changes don't actually fix things, the depression is still there.


There's a mantra some of us trans people use, when discussing mental issues and such.

"Sexual Reassignment Surgery fixes exactly one thing, Gender Identity Disorder".  Using it to "fix" any other mental issue won't work.

The WPATH standards of care mandate extensive psychological counseling and testing prior to any medical intervention, for just that reason. You don't get the magic letter to have surgery/hormones, until you can convince an unconnected-with-case PhD. level provider that surgery is the right move.  It's a built-in second opinion from someone who has every reason in the book to say "no".
 
2013-07-22 12:22:07 PM
The real question is "can they do it"? I assume the answer is "kinda".
 
2013-07-22 12:25:41 PM

This text is now purple: Gunther: Anyhow, it's not a big deal for you to refer to people as the gender they identify as rather than as the sex they were born, is it?

Ignacio Gonzalez de Arriba identified himself as the reincarnation of Christ. He got busted in Mexico fairly recently because his followers treated him like he was, and got all cult-y.

Perhaps it's not the best idea to mindlessly indulge someone's delusion of grandeur.


Well, it's good to know you're keeping perspective on this and aren't leaping to ludicrously hyperbolic slippery slope examples.
 
2013-07-22 12:28:22 PM
Any woman that removes (nice looking) boobs for any reason other than life-threatening situations is a criminal in my book.

Keep your fun bags ladies. Without them you are just another douchebag who eats my pizza and drinks my beer while never contributing one cent to this house.
 
2013-07-22 12:46:19 PM

Jument: The real question is "can they do it"? I assume the answer is "kinda".


There's a lot people can read into their relationship...

It's a boy and a girl who met and fell for each other. The rest is just bizarre and convoluted, but as of right now, they're practically heterosexuals. Ironic, right?
 
2013-07-22 12:50:38 PM
Gender-switching has added a whole new dimension to physique criticism.  The latter used to be a simple 1-10 scale but now entire essays can be written about just one body.  It is insufficient to merely judge a person's looks; we must now opine upon his/her motivations, character, mental health, and ask the all-important question, "Who paid how much for that?" even if the person lives in a country that is none of our business.
 
2013-07-22 12:51:24 PM

Qellaqan: I think people have trouble understanding trangender because we think of surgery and it involves so much pain. I know it's a total speculation, but I can't imagine feeling upset enough to undergo surgery, even if I were forced to live my life as a man rather than a woman. In fact, I've felt annoyed by the idea that there are behaviors for men and behaviors for women. Can't I just be a person? That seems to have been the movement for years, but this seems to go against the flow of that.

I think this is what just puzzles people who don't know any transgendered people in life and don't have those feelings either. It's different than the reaction to people who are gay, because, honestly, what is the harm in bumping uglies with a different set of parts? But surgery and hormones and therapy, are, well, frightening and kind of alarming. It's hard to understand feeling the need for that, and thus the mind goes toward those people who want their limbs amputated and munchausen's and the like.

As someone who is not transgendered and has been a bit skeptical, the feeling that there must be some other way comes up. I'll accept that there isn't, but I think there's more going on than petty squeamishness for many people. Maybe it's this kind of reaction that leads people to try to treat cancer with holistic medicine-- the overwhelming feeling that horrible chemicals like chemotherapy couldn't possibly help matters.


Not all trans people need or want surgery and hormones. It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves, under the guidance of a therapist and a doctor. Some states now don't even require surgery as a prerequisite to have gender marker changed on your documentation.
 
2013-07-22 12:57:02 PM

Researcher: Jument: The real question is "can they do it"? I assume the answer is "kinda".

There's a lot people can read into their relationship...

It's a boy and a girl who met and fell for each other. The rest is just bizarre and convoluted, but as of right now, they're practically heterosexuals. Ironic, right?


Well, at least now I know Alanis Morissette's Fark handle.
 
2013-07-22 01:00:26 PM

This text is now purple: Gunther: Anyhow, it's not a big deal for you to refer to people as the gender they identify as rather than as the sex they were born, is it?

Ignacio Gonzalez de Arriba identified himself as the reincarnation of Christ. He got busted in Mexico fairly recently because his followers treated him like he was, and got all cult-y.

Perhaps it's not the best idea to mindlessly indulge someone's delusion of grandeur.


And just look at the thousands of transgender people who have started apocalyptic death cults just because we gave in to their insane demands and said "she" when we wanted to say "he."  Good on you for fighting their tyranny and protecting the Amerijesus way of life. You're a true patriot.
 
2013-07-22 01:13:22 PM

HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.


You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.
 
2013-07-22 01:20:36 PM

12349876: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.


So all the ladies in the thread are totally cool with me hanging out in women's restrooms, yah?

/Always did say I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
//Where did that carpet square go?
 
2013-07-22 01:24:02 PM

codergirl42: Qellaqan: I think people have trouble understanding trangender because we think of surgery and it involves so much pain. I know it's a total speculation, but I can't imagine feeling upset enough to undergo surgery, even if I were forced to live my life as a man rather than a woman. In fact, I've felt annoyed by the idea that there are behaviors for men and behaviors for women. Can't I just be a person? That seems to have been the movement for years, but this seems to go against the flow of that.

I think this is what just puzzles people who don't know any transgendered people in life and don't have those feelings either. It's different than the reaction to people who are gay, because, honestly, what is the harm in bumping uglies with a different set of parts? But surgery and hormones and therapy, are, well, frightening and kind of alarming. It's hard to understand feeling the need for that, and thus the mind goes toward those people who want their limbs amputated and munchausen's and the like.

As someone who is not transgendered and has been a bit skeptical, the feeling that there must be some other way comes up. I'll accept that there isn't, but I think there's more going on than petty squeamishness for many people. Maybe it's this kind of reaction that leads people to try to treat cancer with holistic medicine-- the overwhelming feeling that horrible chemicals like chemotherapy couldn't possibly help matters.

Not all trans people need or want surgery and hormones. It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves, under the guidance of a therapist and a doctor. Some states now don't even require surgery as a prerequisite to have gender marker changed on your documentation.


I'm all for people living happier lives and I'm happy to hear that. I know I assumed all transgenders (my computer is always correcting this word to transponders, which amuses me because I'm special) has surgery before I read the threads here over the years, so I would guess most people do think that's the way it is.

My post was less meant to say what transgenders do and don't do and more to try to rationally explain why even fairly level-headed tolerant people sometimes find transgendered stuff too extreme. I'll readily admit, as you suggest, that there are plenty of people in less-extreme situations that simply don't get the press.
 
2013-07-22 01:30:57 PM

Luse: 12349876: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.

So all the ladies in the thread are totally cool with me hanging out in women's restrooms, yah?

/Always did say I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
//Where did that carpet square go?


In all seriousness I wouldn't care. If you want to experience all the disgusting things that happen in the women's bathroom, so be it.
 
2013-07-22 01:37:38 PM

airsupport: And the first time they had sex they discovered that their surgically-cobbled-together genitals, loose approximations of the real thing freakishly fused together from elbow skin, butt fat and cadaver cartilage, were almost useless for actual intercourse. And suddenly it wasn't cool anymore.


Jument: The real question is "can they do it"? I assume the answer is "kinda".



Probably with some difficulty. Arin still has his vagina.
 
2013-07-22 01:59:01 PM

RastaKins: airsupport: And the first time they had sex they discovered that their surgically-cobbled-together genitals, loose approximations of the real thing freakishly fused together from elbow skin, butt fat and cadaver cartilage, were almost useless for actual intercourse. And suddenly it wasn't cool anymore.

Jument: The real question is "can they do it"? I assume the answer is "kinda".

Probably with some difficulty. Arin still has his vagina.


"His vagina" is a really odd statement. At least to me.
 
2013-07-22 02:01:25 PM

charmbomb: Luse: 12349876: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.

So all the ladies in the thread are totally cool with me hanging out in women's restrooms, yah?

/Always did say I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
//Where did that carpet square go?

In all seriousness I wouldn't care. If you want to experience all the disgusting things that happen in the women's bathroom, so be it.


It would appear many are not as open minded as you. Recent case involving Anchorage bar kickint out a trans individual (pre-op) I believe.
You have to admit, it is a valid question.

/For a gay guy Andy Dick sure fondles alot of famous boob
//not just sayin
///Super Sayan
 
2013-07-22 02:36:34 PM
I don't know about others, but every time the bathroom question comes up, I kinda wonder who exactly is checking genitals in the restrooms?

IIRC, you guys studiously avoid even glancing at another guys junk, and ladies restrooms have stalls.  In order to "catch" a trans using the wrong restroom, you'd have to make some pretty big assumptions (Hey, they might be a really butch natal female, or an extremely willowy fem male).

I just don't get it.  Is there some kind of "junk check" I've been missing every time I have to go pee?
 
2013-07-22 02:46:07 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I don't know about others, but every time the bathroom question comes up, I kinda wonder who exactly is checking genitals in the restrooms?

IIRC, you guys studiously avoid even glancing at another guys junk, and ladies restrooms have stalls.  In order to "catch" a trans using the wrong restroom, you'd have to make some pretty big assumptions (Hey, they might be a really butch natal female, or an extremely willowy fem male).

I just don't get it.  Is there some kind of "junk check" I've been missing every time I have to go pee?


You do know not all trans folks look like the ones in tfa right? They can also be preop, and look like Chuck Lidell.

Another case I read about recently Young boy likes wearing nothing but dresses, uses girls bathroom. He was busted because in spite of stalls most young girls don't stand facing toilet while urinating.
 
2013-07-22 02:58:40 PM

xennex: Hormones and surgery can do a lot of things but growing cartilage for the adams apple?


Replacement sex hormones do have an effect on all secondary sex characteristics, including skeletal growth.  The catch with skeletal growth is that there is a window of opportunity only during puberty for it to have an effect.  Once you reach about age 20, HRT will have little effect on your skeleton outside of bone density.

So for those doing M2F transitioning, estrogen will restrict their height, will make their pelvis wider, their frame smaller, their eye sockets more shallow, their jawline softer, their brow flatter and hands/feet smaller.  For F2M transitioning, testosterone does the opposite.

So the earlier one starts HRT (or at a minimum, hormone blockers), the less cosmetic surgery they will need down the road as an adult.  Not to mention that some things, like the size of ones' ribcage, feet and hands, cannot be practically altered through surgery in adulthood.
 
2013-07-22 03:17:01 PM

Luse: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I don't know about others, but every time the bathroom question comes up, I kinda wonder who exactly is checking genitals in the restrooms?

IIRC, you guys studiously avoid even glancing at another guys junk, and ladies restrooms have stalls.  In order to "catch" a trans using the wrong restroom, you'd have to make some pretty big assumptions (Hey, they might be a really butch natal female, or an extremely willowy fem male).

I just don't get it.  Is there some kind of "junk check" I've been missing every time I have to go pee?

You do know not all trans folks look like the ones in tfa right? They can also be preop, and look like Chuck Lidell.

Another case I read about recently Young boy likes wearing nothing but dresses, uses girls bathroom. He was busted because in spite of stalls most young girls don't stand facing toilet while urinating.


Ohh I know not all us trans people are "passing" by society norms.  Typically though, most trans people at least make a minimal attempt to pass as the opposite gender.  You aren't going to see many hair-covered, beard growing, shaggy MtFs wandering into a public restroom marked "female".  Most of us know better, and sit down when using the facilities, such things like that.

The whole bathroom argument is...silly.  I've been full-time for many years.  Once I get in the stall, it's nobodies business but my own what I have between my legs.  The *one* time I was asked, I responded with "Yeah, birth defect, too much testosterone as a teenager".  There's lots of big, burly butch ladies out there, and plenty of willowy, fem males.  Unless you make it a point to let people know, then nobody cares.
 
2013-07-22 03:28:15 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Luse: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I don't know about others, but every time the bathroom question comes up, I kinda wonder who exactly is checking genitals in the restrooms?

IIRC, you guys studiously avoid even glancing at another guys junk, and ladies restrooms have stalls.  In order to "catch" a trans using the wrong restroom, you'd have to make some pretty big assumptions (Hey, they might be a really butch natal female, or an extremely willowy fem male).

I just don't get it.  Is there some kind of "junk check" I've been missing every time I have to go pee?

You do know not all trans folks look like the ones in tfa right? They can also be preop, and look like Chuck Lidell.

Another case I read about recently Young boy likes wearing nothing but dresses, uses girls bathroom. He was busted because in spite of stalls most young girls don't stand facing toilet while urinating.

Ohh I know not all us trans people are "passing" by society norms.  Typically though, most trans people at least make a minimal attempt to pass as the opposite gender.  You aren't going to see many hair-covered, beard growing, shaggy MtFs wandering into a public restroom marked "female".  Most of us know better, and sit down when using the facilities, such things like that.

The whole bathroom argument is...silly.  I've been full-time for many years.  Once I get in the stall, it's nobodies business but my own what I have between my legs.  The *one* time I was asked, I responded with "Yeah, birth defect, too much testosterone as a teenager".  There's lots of big, burly butch ladies out there, and plenty of willowy, fem males.  Unless you make it a point to let people know, then nobody cares.


I am glad that your experience is a fairly easy one.

I just gave you 2 recent real world examples showing that not all women are at ease with it.

Regardless of how a person may identify, a smaller woman might, and have become alarmed at the sight of an apparent male or impostor.

Also, what would stop a male from entering a ladiesroom and claim he identifies himself as a she?

See my Andy Dick comment. For a gay guy he grabs alot of boob.
/I know he's "gay" and not trans.
 
2013-07-22 03:30:58 PM

Matthew Keene: Yeah, I guess it's a real drag living in the wrong body. I'm 58, balding, slightly overweight. I wonder if they can help me. This is what I want to look like.

[i14.photobucket.com image 338x600]


I've read two autobiographies by TG people. You're thinking the surgery is some kind of magic; walk in male and walk out looking like that girl in the pic. In the cases I read about it's closer to: Spend several years in therapy, thousands of hours dealing with maddening side-effects of hormone blockers and opposite hormones, practice being your new gender fulltime for a year while simultaneously losing your friends and family and trying to make new ones, and THEN drop $50,000 on painful surgery with significant lifetime maintenance needs.

You could look like that picture you posted for one-tenth as much effort and money. You just don't want it nearly bad enough...same as me.
 
2013-07-22 03:47:22 PM
its also important to remember that there are many cultures in the world that have far more than two genders.

in a large percentage of tribal based cultures around the world, there are at least three, and sometimes up to eight different gender identities.

north american tribes had three, and sometimes four genders. even in the judaic tradition there are six different genders identified.

(if anyone wants the list of the names of different genders from north american tribes, or the judaic ones, email me, its too long to post here)

i, personally, do not understand how anyone can be comfortable living in a rigid binary structure. that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, or that i have any right to be dismissive or demeaning about their choice.

someone doesn't understand my gender identity? if they want to, i'm happy to explain it, if they don't want to, fine.

not understanding and not wanting to is not license to tell me i'm wrong, or sick, or in any way condemn my choices.

usually i refer people to the work of kate bornstein if they do want to educate themselves. two of her books, 'gender outlaw', and 'my gender workbook', are amazingly clear explanations of a lot of these issues.
 
2013-07-22 03:55:35 PM

Luse: charmbomb: Luse: 12349876: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.

So all the ladies in the thread are totally cool with me hanging out in women's restrooms, yah?

/Always did say I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
//Where did that carpet square go?

In all seriousness I wouldn't care. If you want to experience all the disgusting things that happen in the women's bathroom, so be it.

It would appear many are not as open minded as you. Recent case involving Anchorage bar kickint out a trans individual (pre-op) I believe.
You have to admit, it is a valid question.

/For a gay guy Andy Dick sure fondles alot of famous boob
//not just sayin
///Super Sayan


There are plenty of uptight people that like to get outraged over things, you can always find examples. As long as there is a stall, I don't care. Pretty much everyone I know wouldn't care. Man or woman.

And I live in the Super Red Arizona. IMHO: Everybody poops. It's the great equalizer.
 
2013-07-22 03:59:23 PM

Luse: See my Andy Dick comment. For a gay guy he grabs alot of boob.
/I know he's "gay" and not trans.


Andy Dick isn't gay.  In fact, he has three children from two separate marriages.

But, y'know, keep on making assumptions without research.  It tends to discredit everything else you say and makes it easier for people to tear down your posts.
 
2013-07-22 04:03:14 PM

charmbomb: Luse: charmbomb: Luse: 12349876: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.

So all the ladies in the thread are totally cool with me hanging out in women's restrooms, yah?

/Always did say I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
//Where did that carpet square go?

In all seriousness I wouldn't care. If you want to experience all the disgusting things that happen in the women's bathroom, so be it.

It would appear many are not as open minded as you. Recent case involving Anchorage bar kickint out a trans individual (pre-op) I believe.
You have to admit, it is a valid question.

/For a gay guy Andy Dick sure fondles alot of famous boob
//not just sayin
///Super Sayan

There are plenty of uptight people that like to get outraged over things, you can always find examples. As long as there is a stall, I don't care. Pretty much everyone I know wouldn't care. Man or woman.

And I live in the Super Red Arizona. IMHO: Everybody poops. It's the great equalizer.


And the people in your social circle are representative of the US populous.
I'm sorry but see what happens if a little girl comes out of a bathroom and says, "Daddy, there was a man in a dress in there."
 
2013-07-22 04:04:08 PM

Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.


There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.
 
2013-07-22 04:06:34 PM
Charmbomb:
Also, I am for accomadating people to help them be more comfortable. I have listed 2 recent cases where the general public was not.
Why does your comfort trump theirs?

/Needs of the many and all
 
2013-07-22 04:08:46 PM

radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.


Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks
 
2013-07-22 04:10:39 PM

Luse: And the people in your social circle are representative of the US populous.
I'm sorry but see what happens if a little girl comes out of a bathroom and says, "Daddy, there was a man in a dress in there."


Here's what happens.  Little girl says that.  Parents hang around the bathroom door.  Parents may or may not notice the poor lady who has an issue with POCS, and looks more masculine than the ideal.  If parents notice, they have a discussion with the little girl about how we don't make assumptions about people based on their looks.

I know, in certain fantasy worlds, the heroic little girl and on the ball parents spot the evil perv guy who was using the ladies bathroom for nefarious purposes, but...that really doesn't happen.


You poop. I poop.  Sometimes you have to use public restrooms.  Sometimes I do.  Pick the one most appropriate to your identity.  Do your business, get out.


Really, the bathroom argument just reeks of "There's a potential for outrage, so we must ban it!"  Lets revisit the issue when there's a pool of documented transgender people using the restroom for perv activities.
 
2013-07-22 04:14:21 PM
Geez.  Arin is really cute.
 
2013-07-22 04:14:56 PM

Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks


He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.
 
2013-07-22 04:17:41 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Luse: And the people in your social circle are representative of the US populous.
I'm sorry but see what happens if a little girl comes out of a bathroom and says, "Daddy, there was a man in a dress in there."

Here's what happens.  Little girl says that.  Parents hang around the bathroom door.  Parents may or may not notice the poor lady who has an issue with POCS, and looks more masculine than the ideal.  If parents notice, they have a discussion with the little girl about how we don't make assumptions about people based on their looks.

I know, in certain fantasy worlds, the heroic little girl and on the ball parents spot the evil perv guy who was using the ladies bathroom for nefarious purposes, but...that really doesn't happen.


You poop. I poop.  Sometimes you have to use public restrooms.  Sometimes I do.  Pick the one most appropriate to your identity.  Do your business, get out.


Really, the bathroom argument just reeks of "There's a potential for outrage, so we must ban it!"  Lets revisit the issue when there's a pool of documented transgender people using the restroom for perv activities.


Then make a push for unisex bathrooms. I don't disagree. I do not care who is next to me squeezing a deuce.

You nor I are the norm. Most people in the US are not comfortable with the possessor of a penis entering a ladies room.
I am simply not entitled enough to demand that they change it just for me.
 
2013-07-22 04:20:47 PM

radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks

He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.


And it is completely inconcievable that someone might use, "I identify as a woman." as an excuse to enter a women's locker room @ a gym for example.
 
2013-07-22 04:22:53 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: You aren't going to see many hair-covered, beard growing, shaggy MtFs wandering into a public restroom marked "female".  Most of us know better, and sit down when using the facilities, such things like that.


this
 
2013-07-22 04:27:47 PM

Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks

He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.

And it is completely inconcievable that someone might use, "I identify as a woman." as an excuse to enter a women's locker room @ a gym for example.


I don't care about that.  I didn't even read the rest of your post and neither know nor care where you stand on the issue.  But Andy's name caught my eye and when I read your statement about him I said, "Well, there goes any credibility that person had, regardless of where s/he stands on the issue of transgendered people."

I had to point it out because I felt that it was my responsibility to inform a fellow Farker that when you make provably false statements due to assumptions and lack of research nobody will take anything else you say in the thread seriously, no matter how correct you are or what the topic is.

Let it be a lesson.
 
2013-07-22 04:30:01 PM

alienated: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: You aren't going to see many hair-covered, beard growing, shaggy MtFs wandering into a public restroom marked "female".  Most of us know better, and sit down when using the facilities, such things like that.

this


Except one trans person in the thread said "when I get questioned".
Google humpy's transgender.

Except for those 2 quick examples I wont hear it. Right?
 
2013-07-22 04:30:09 PM

Luse: Then make a push for unisex bathrooms. I don't disagree. I do not care who is next to me squeezing a deuce.

You nor I are the norm. Most people in the US are not comfortable with the possessor of a penis entering a ladies room.
I am simply not entitled enough to demand that they change it just for me.


That's why you don't announce your possession of said equipment.  You go in, do your business, and get back out.  The only time said equipment should be "on display" is in the semi-privacy of a stall.

Should, by some rare occurrence that a MtF gets "found out", I've found that the vast majority of people are sympathetic to the issue once informed.  As long as your intentions are innocent, it typically isn't a problem.


Personal anecdote time, I came out and started full-time while employed.  My female co-workers were almost dragging me in the ladies room, to fix makeup, give beauty tips, and girl talk with "the new girl".  It was the men that had issues and brought up the bathroom arguments.
 
2013-07-22 04:31:15 PM
Wow, so this thread is about bathroom etiquette now?  Why do TG threads always end up devolving into a thread about bathroom etiquette?

Newsflash, folks-  outside of Deutschland, almost nobody of any gender wants to be near anyone else of any gender while they're having a messy push.  Your fears are unfounded.
 
2013-07-22 04:35:53 PM

radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks

He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.

And it is completely inconcievable that someone might use, "I identify as a woman." as an excuse to enter a women's locker room @ a gym for example.

I don't care about that.  I didn't even read the rest of your post and neither know nor care where you stand on the issue.  But Andy's name caught my eye and when I read your statement about him I said, "Well, there goes any credibility that person had, regardless of where s/he stands on the issue of transgendered people."

I had to point it out because I felt that it was my responsibility to inform a fellow Farker that when you make provably false statements due to assumptions and lack of research nobody will take anything else you say in the thread seriously, no matter how correct you are or what the topic is.

Let it be a lesson.


If you wish. I only said he was gay becauase I have heard him self identify as such. I did not read his life story nor do I care to.
The fact that he either mis identified himself or changed what he identifies himself as actually furthers my point.
Women and men in the US are overall uncomfortable with genetic males in a "female only" place.
Part of the concern about trans is you must take their word. Even if they are Andy Dick.
 
2013-07-22 04:37:56 PM
Fast Moon:  ...I agree that "otherkin" are delusional attention-seekers piggybacking on a legitimate mental condition in order to claim some sort of validity...

Thank you.  I don't like feeling like I'm being insensitive in these matters, but I can't help but roll my eyes at some of these delineations.  Waking up feeling like a girl today and a boy the next seems like just straight-up attention whoring.  And it cheapens the issues faced by people that were actually born with the wrong parts.
 
2013-07-22 04:39:40 PM

radarlove: Why do TG threads always end up devolving into a thread about bathroom etiquette?


Much the same way debates about equal protection against discrimination for Trans folks happens in state assemblies, state senates and city council meetings. Some folks just look for an excuse, any excuse to deny equal protection or rights. Kind of like how letting the gay folks marry will unleash a flood of man on turtle sex, etc.
When one lacks a strong argument against equality, or even a logical one, they resort to the most far fetched things they can imagine.Or, perhaps, fantasize about.
 
2013-07-22 04:40:12 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Luse: Then make a push for unisex bathrooms. I don't disagree. I do not care who is next to me squeezing a deuce.

You nor I are the norm. Most people in the US are not comfortable with the possessor of a penis entering a ladies room.
I am simply not entitled enough to demand that they change it just for me.

That's why you don't announce your possession of said equipment.  You go in, do your business, and get back out.  The only time said equipment should be "on display" is in the semi-privacy of a stall.

Should, by some rare occurrence that a MtF gets "found out", I've found that the vast majority of people are sympathetic to the issue once informed.  As long as your intentions are innocent, it typically isn't a problem.


Personal anecdote time, I came out and started full-time while employed.  My female co-workers were almost dragging me in the ladies room, to fix makeup, give beauty tips, and girl talk with "the new girl".  It was the men that had issues and brought up the bathroom arguments.


I am very glad for you.
I am assuming you knew these women and have developed a positive relationship with them. Speaks well for you as a person.

You however still ignore the examples I gave.
 
2013-07-22 04:45:46 PM

alienated: radarlove: Why do TG threads always end up devolving into a thread about bathroom etiquette?

Much the same way debates about equal protection against discrimination for Trans folks happens in state assemblies, state senates and city council meetings. Some folks just look for an excuse, any excuse to deny equal protection or rights. Kind of like how letting the gay folks marry will unleash a flood of man on turtle sex, etc.
When one lacks a strong argument against equality, or even a logical one, they resort to the most far fetched things they can imagine.Or, perhaps, fantasize about.


Sorry but I am for equality. Marriage, race, sex, you name it.
I am also for NO special treatment of anyone other than children or the disabled.
 
2013-07-22 04:46:20 PM
Okay.
 
2013-07-22 04:47:58 PM

Qellaqan: codergirl42: Qellaqan: I think people have trouble understanding trangender because we think of surgery and it involves so much pain. I know it's a total speculation, but I can't imagine feeling upset enough to undergo surgery, even if I were forced to live my life as a man rather than a woman. In fact, I've felt annoyed by the idea that there are behaviors for men and behaviors for women. Can't I just be a person? That seems to have been the movement for years, but this seems to go against the flow of that.

I think this is what just puzzles people who don't know any transgendered people in life and don't have those feelings either. It's different than the reaction to people who are gay, because, honestly, what is the harm in bumping uglies with a different set of parts? But surgery and hormones and therapy, are, well, frightening and kind of alarming. It's hard to understand feeling the need for that, and thus the mind goes toward those people who want their limbs amputated and munchausen's and the like.

As someone who is not transgendered and has been a bit skeptical, the feeling that there must be some other way comes up. I'll accept that there isn't, but I think there's more going on than petty squeamishness for many people. Maybe it's this kind of reaction that leads people to try to treat cancer with holistic medicine-- the overwhelming feeling that horrible chemicals like chemotherapy couldn't possibly help matters.

Not all trans people need or want surgery and hormones. It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves, under the guidance of a therapist and a doctor. Some states now don't even require surgery as a prerequisite to have gender marker changed on your documentation.

I'm all for people living happier lives and I'm happy to hear that. I know I assumed all transgenders (my computer is always correcting this word to transponders, which amuses me because I'm special) has surgery before I read the threads here over the years, so I wou ...


Maybe that's what the SUN needs to do for their next article: "Transgender Person Leads Normal Life"
 
2013-07-22 04:49:31 PM

Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks

He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.

And it is completely inconcievable that someone might use, "I identify as a woman." as an excuse to enter a women's locker room @ a gym for example.

I don't care about that.  I didn't even read the rest of your post and neither know nor care where you stand on the issue.  But Andy's name caught my eye and when I read your statement about him I said, "Well, there goes any credibility that person had, regardless of where s/he stands on the issue of transgendered people."

I had to point it out because I felt that it was my responsibility to inform a fellow Farker that when you make provably false statements due to assumptions and lack of research nobody will take anything else you say in the thread seriously, no matter how correct you are or what the topic is.

Let it be a lesson.

If you wish. I only said he was gay becauase I have heard him self identify as such. I did not read his life story nor do I care to.
The fact that he either mis identified himself or changed what he identifies himself as actually furthers my point.
Women and men in the US are overall uncomfortable with genetic males in a "female only" place.
Part of the concern about trans is you must take their word. Even if they are Andy Dick.


Again, I don't care about your point or position.  Through intellectual laziness, you posted information that is fairly widely known as false.  Ergo, all previous and subsequent posts of yours will be viewed by people as equally intellectually lazy.  That Andy ever claimed to be gay is irrelevant, because it is widely known that he is not and said information is very easily available by typing the name "Andy Dick" into any search engine..  Similarly, Rock Hudson and Mr. Brady claimed to be straight, but if you were to go into a thread and claim that either of them were straight you would discredit everything else you say in the thread because it is widely known that they were, in fact, gay.

Regardless of whatever the hell your point is, my point is that nobody is going to take your point seriously, because you've proven yourself to be intellectually lazy.

Always remember to do your research before making a factual post, regardless of how benign and blatantly obvious you feel your fact is.  Because if you're wrong, you discredit everything else you say, no matter how factually correct and important it may be.

Better luck next thread!  =)
 
2013-07-22 04:54:48 PM

alienated: Or, perhaps, fantasize about.


*shudder*

Please don't tell me that Pat Robertson fantasizes about molesting underage turtles (or just a young and virile Mitch McConnell) while they're having a poo.  I just don't think I can process that level of ick.
 
2013-07-22 05:15:44 PM
Is this stuff fabricated by the media to feed the voracious appetite of the slack-jawed viewing public, or are/were they genuinely attracted to each other because of similar experiences and backgrounds regarding their respective sexual orientation? Hmmm?

/betting on some form of shenanigans
 
2013-07-22 05:24:08 PM

Bung_Howdy: Is this stuff fabricated by the media to feed the voracious appetite of the slack-jawed viewing public, or are/were they genuinely attracted to each other because of similar experiences and backgrounds regarding their respective sexual orientation? Hmmm?

/betting on some form of shenanigans


There are links upthread that will take you to several articles about this couple and their experiences, and most of them are from very reputable media outlets.
 
2013-07-22 05:28:59 PM

Bung_Howdy

Here you are, I've saved you the caloric expenditure of having to scroll and search the thread:


Southern100: It's not BS.. They're from Oklahoma and have been cited in numerous news articles:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Much_has_changed_in_year_for_ Bi xby_transgender_teen/20120603_11_a1_cutlin564530

http://now.msn.com/katie-hill-and-arin-andrews-are-teen-transgender- co uple

http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/5274-a-teen-love-story-unlike -a ny-other

http://www.medicaldaily.com/articles/13124/20121114/young-couple-fin ds -love-both-undergo-transgender.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/crazy-stupid-love-on-2 02 0-airing-friday-february-15-at-10-pm-on-abc/

 
2013-07-22 05:33:56 PM

radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks

He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.

And it is completely inconcievable that someone might use, "I identify as a woman." as an excuse to enter a women's locker room @ a gym for example.

I don't care about that.  I didn't even read the rest of your post and neither know nor care where you stand on the issue.  But Andy's name caught my eye and when I read your statement about him I said, "Well, there goes any credibility that person had, regardless of where s/he stands on the issue of transgendered people."

I had to point it out because I felt that it was my responsibility to inform a fellow Farker that when you make provably false statements due to assumptions and lack of research nobody will take anything else you say in the thread seriously, no matter how correct you are or what the topic is.

Let it be a lesson.

If you wish. I only said he was gay becauase I have heard him self identify as such. I did not read his life story nor do I care to.
The fact that he either mis identified himself or changed what he identifies himself as actually furthers my point.
Women and men in the US are overall uncomfortable with genetic males in a "female only" place.
Part of the concern about trans is you must take their word. Even if they are Andy Dick.

Again, I don't care about your point or position.  Through intellectual laziness, you posted information that is fairly widely known as false.  Ergo, all previous and subsequent posts of yours will be viewed by people as equally intellectually lazy.  That Andy ever claimed to be gay is irrelevant, because it is widely known that he is not and said information is very easily available by typing the name "Andy Dick" into any search engine..  Similarly, Rock Hudson and Mr. Brady claimed to be straight, but if you were to go into a thread and claim that either of them were straight you would discredit everything else you say in the thread because it is widely known that they were, in fact, gay.

Regardless of whatever the hell your point is, my point is that nobody is going to take your point seriously, because you've proven yourself to be intellectually lazy.

Always remember to do your research before making a factual post, regardless of how benign and blatantly obvious you feel your fact is.  Because if you're wrong, you discredit everything else you say, no matter how factually correct and important it may be.

Better luck next thread!  =)


Ok, I will type slower so you can understand.
The POINT of me using parentheses for gay when talking about Andy is because he is not, but claims to be.

This is relevant because our trans friends identify with, and act as the opposite sex, even pre op. Their arguement is that a simple (self identifying) statement should be sufficient.

So.

You are technically (the best kind of) correct, Dick is not gay.
You are also a pedantic douche.
Better?
 
2013-07-22 05:38:28 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: arents hang around the bathroom door.  Parents may or may not notice the poor lady who has an issue with POCS, and looks more masculine than the ideal.  If parents notice, they have a discussion with the little girl about how we don't make assumptions about people based on their looks.


And two news stories out of how many transgender people using the restrooms is also representative of the general pop? Do you know how many transgender people in the US use the restroom in a given day with no issue? Quite a bit.

If my child came out of the bathroom and said that, I would say "Yeah, some dudes like to wear dresses." and that would be that. Just like, if my child asked me why two women were kissing on the street corner, I'd say "Some women love women." A practical answer for a non-issue situation, because if one of my own children happens to grow up and decides they aren't comfortable in their bodies, or they are gay, or whatever, I would treat it the same as if they were straight, if they wanted to be an astronaut or anything else.

I have enough empathy to treat others different from me with respect and dignity, I would teach my child the same, and the majority of people I run into do the same as well. It's human. A very small amount of people actually care enough to make it an issue.
 
2013-07-22 05:48:27 PM

charmbomb: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: arents hang around the bathroom door.  Parents may or may not notice the poor lady who has an issue with POCS, and looks more masculine than the ideal.  If parents notice, they have a discussion with the little girl about how we don't make assumptions about people based on their looks.

And two news stories out of how many transgender people using the restrooms is also representative of the general pop? Do you know how many transgender people in the US use the restroom in a given day with no issue? Quite a bit.

If my child came out of the bathroom and said that, I would say "Yeah, some dudes like to wear dresses." and that would be that. Just like, if my child asked me why two women were kissing on the street corner, I'd say "Some women love women." A practical answer for a non-issue situation, because if one of my own children happens to grow up and decides they aren't comfortable in their bodies, or they are gay, or whatever, I would treat it the same as if they were straight, if they wanted to be an astronaut or anything else.

I have enough empathy to treat others different from me with respect and dignity, I would teach my child the same, and the majority of people I run into do the same as well. It's human. A very small amount of people actually care enough to make it an issue.


Well, typically multiple news stories about a topic tend to represent current events better than a CSB.

Having said that, I like your approach to life and raising your kids. We are quite alike actually, minus the kids. Sadly, we are not the majority.
 
2013-07-22 05:48:53 PM

camelclub: When he was a she, it was nsfw to show the nipples.

Now she's a he and it is safe for work to show the nipples.

Why was it bad then, but not bad now?


This!  All nipples should be shown.
 
2013-07-22 05:55:43 PM

Luse: Ok, I will type slower so you can understand.
The POINT of me using parentheses for gay when talking about Andy is because he is not, but claims to be.

This is relevant because our trans friends identify with, and act as the opposite sex, even pre op. Their arguement is that a simple (self identifying) statement should be sufficient.

So.

You are technically (the best kind of) correct, Dick is not gay.
You are also a pedantic douche.
Better?


You're apparently missing my point, which is that I absolutely do not care about what your point is.  It wouldn't matter if this were a conversation about transpersons or Newtonian physics- when you post a piece of information, even if veiled through thin sarcasm, that is factually incorrect, it makes anything else that you say moot because people assume that you've used that same level of intellectual rigor for those statements as well.

I do not know or care what your opinion on the topic at hand is.  I've chosen not to read your opinion on transgenderism because I don't want to be unfairly biased while I'm attempting to educate you.  I'm simply trying to teach you how not to destroy your own arguments.

Is it pedantic?  You betcha.  All internet arguments focus on the details and everyone reading your posts will be dissecting them for those details.  Get those details wrong, and you destroy your credibility.  This is how arguments work, or more topically, how they fall apart.

If you feel that I'm being douchey about it then I apologize.  I bear you no ill will and as I've said I do not know your opinion on the topic and I do not care to.  My posts have been made in an attempt to help you (and any other Farkers reading) to strengthen your arguments in subsequent threads and as such increase the overall quality of discourse on Fark.

You're certainly more than welcome to ignore my advice, but you do so at your own risk.
 
2013-07-22 06:39:11 PM

radarlove: You're certainly more than welcome to ignore my advice, but you do so at your own risk.


I'm ignoring it. I do not feel at risk.
 
2013-07-22 06:44:29 PM

bmihura: radarlove: You're certainly more than welcome to ignore my advice, but you do so at your own risk.

I'm ignoring it. I do not feel at risk.


Groovy!  I must admit, if it were all signal and no noise, it just wouldn't be Fark!  =)
 
2013-07-22 06:49:10 PM

radarlove: Luse: Ok, I will type slower so you can understand.
The POINT of me using parentheses for gay when talking about Andy is because he is not, but claims to be.

This is relevant because our trans friends identify with, and act as the opposite sex, even pre op. Their arguement is that a simple (self identifying) statement should be sufficient.

So.

You are technically (the best kind of) correct, Dick is not gay.
You are also a pedantic douche.
Better?

You're apparently missing my point, which is that I absolutely do not care about what your point is.  It wouldn't matter if this were a conversation about transpersons or Newtonian physics- when you post a piece of information, even if veiled through thin sarcasm, that is factually incorrect, it makes anything else that you say moot because people assume that you've used that same level of intellectual rigor for those statements as well.

I do not know or care what your opinion on the topic at hand is.  I've chosen not to read your opinion on transgenderism because I don't want to be unfairly biased while I'm attempting to educate you.  I'm simply trying to teach you how not to destroy your own arguments.

Is it pedantic?  You betcha.  All internet arguments focus on the details and everyone reading your posts will be dissecting them for those details.  Get those details wrong, and you destroy your credibility.  This is how arguments work, or more topically, how they fall apart.

If you feel that I'm being douchey about it then I apologize.  I bear you no ill will and as I've said I do not know your opinion on the topic and I do not care to.  My posts have been made in an attempt to help you (and any other Farkers reading) to strengthen your arguments in subsequent threads and as such increase the overall quality of discourse on Fark.

You're certainly more than welcome to ignore my advice, but you do so at your own risk.


Notice the way that only you are obsessed with whether Dick is gay? It's because everyone else knew what I meant and decided to talk about the subject at hand, not Dick.
 
img1.ak.crunchyroll.com

 
2013-07-22 06:58:30 PM

zabadu: mafiageek1980: Tumunga: Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.
[img.poptower.com image 599x381]

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.

Me too. It's a guilty pleasure, but a FUNNY guilty pleasure! I can't get enough of Joan's foul mouth! She's an inspiration to me, lol! I don't see how Irwin puts up with her, lol!

As for the article, i found it suddenly dusty in my cubical. I am a FTM transgender, but I am keeping my parts (and not taking T) until after I have children. I feel very blessed to have a supportive hubby and friends. My family doesn't quite get it, but they aren't dicks about it either.

So you want to be a girl to have babies, then change to a guy?  Interesting.


yes, very. I find nothing wrong with that at all. I don't deny I was born with my parts, but it doesn't mean I have to like them either. As far as I am considered, I am a guy mentally. I just want to (eventually) turn that mentalness into physical. So yeah, use the damn parts I am annoyed with for a GOOD reason and ditch em after I'm done.
 
2013-07-22 07:11:11 PM

mafiageek1980: zabadu: mafiageek1980: Tumunga: Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.
[img.poptower.com image 599x381]

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.

Me too. It's a guilty pleasure, but a FUNNY guilty pleasure! I can't get enough of Joan's foul mouth! She's an inspiration to me, lol! I don't see how Irwin puts up with her, lol!

As for the article, i found it suddenly dusty in my cubical. I am a FTM transgender, but I am keeping my parts (and not taking T) until after I have children. I feel very blessed to have a supportive hubby and friends. My family doesn't quite get it, but they aren't dicks about it either.

So you want to be a girl to have babies, then change to a guy?  Interesting.

yes, very. I find nothing wrong with that at all. I don't deny I was born with my parts, but it doesn't mean I have to like them either. As far as I am considered, I am a guy mentally. I just want to (eventually) turn that mentalness into physical. So yeah, use the damn parts I am annoyed with for a GOOD reason and ditch em after I'm done.


See, now that unfortunately opens up the whole nature vs nurture thing regarding homosexuality.
Also, while I see your approach as highly practical I could also see the other side of the argument. If you dislike/don't feel right being female, why give birth? If there is one thing a woman can do that a man cannot it's that. If you hold affection for that part of you, why give it up?

On a deeper level, WHAT is male or female? Why can't you act butch without a fake penis? Why can't you be feminine with one? I know several fabulous people that certainly are.
I dunno, maybe having the dangly bits is more important, all I'm saying is, it'll never work right again mate.
 
2013-07-22 08:26:05 PM

heili skrimsli: WhyteRaven74: octopied: How did the breast removal surgery work, though? Pretty impressive that he has no scars

Get a good surgeon doing the work and not going to be much in the way of scars. Also there's always Photoshop.

I am skeptical that after a month they would even be completely healed from something like that.


I'm way more than skeptical. Even if it was closer to two months, no way there's no sign of it. Surgical incisions leave marks that take years, if not lifetimes to fade.

Heck, I have a couple acne marks on my cheeks from oversize zits that hit about 4 months ago.
 
2013-07-22 08:29:11 PM

Luse: mafiageek1980: zabadu: mafiageek1980: Tumunga: Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.
[img.poptower.com image 599x381]

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.

Me too. It's a guilty pleasure, but a FUNNY guilty pleasure! I can't get enough of Joan's foul mouth! She's an inspiration to me, lol! I don't see how Irwin puts up with her, lol!

As for the article, i found it suddenly dusty in my cubical. I am a FTM transgender, but I am keeping my parts (and not taking T) until after I have children. I feel very blessed to have a supportive hubby and friends. My family doesn't quite get it, but they aren't dicks about it either.

So you want to be a girl to have babies, then change to a guy?  Interesting.

yes, very. I find nothing wrong with that at all. I don't deny I was born with my parts, but it doesn't mean I have to like them either. As far as I am considered, I am a guy mentally. I just want to (eventually) turn that mentalness into physical. So yeah, use the damn parts I am annoyed with for a GOOD reason and ditch em after I'm done.

See, now that unfortunately opens up the whole nature vs nurture thing regarding homosexuality.
Also, while I see your approach as highly practical I could also see the other side of the argument. If you dislike/don't feel right being female, why give birth? If there is one thing a woman can do that a man cannot it's that. If you hold affection for that part of you, why give it up?

On a deeper level, WHAT is male or female? Why can't you act butch without a fake penis? Why can't you be feminine with one? I know several fabulous people that certainly are.
I dunno, maybe having the dangly bits is more important, all I'm saying is, it'll never work right again mate.


To put it simply: I wasn't in control of what parts I was born with and until bio men can have wombs, I might as well use these useless parts for something. Kids are a blessing I am looking forward to experiencing.SO, since I have the parts, why not use them for good, and get rid of them later to reflect better who I am on the inside on the out. I'm not ashamed of the parts I was assigned, I just see them as nothing more than tools to help bring life into the world. As for sexuality, chew on this dear farker: I am pansexual and my hubby is bisexual ;)
 
2013-07-22 08:42:00 PM
Once again, very practical approach.

As for your relationship, congratulations. Your plans must really be cool to your husband, as he gets you in both flavors so to speak. You could probably write a book about it.

All I am saying is that your situation is incredibly rare when you weigh it against 7 billion people. If nothing else, the two stories I mentioned earlier point to a whole lot of confusion. Now, we need to create a committee and categorize every single possible combination of gender/sex relationship. Yours is quite unique if I may add. This of course leads to everyone having to study up, and keep current with the latest version, as not to be in the wrong wave of course.

I could understand why the simple rule of you use whichever restroom your dangly bits coincide with is attractive.
See, this solution, while admittedly not perfect inconveniences slightly a small percentile of the populous, costs nothing to implement and does not discriminate against anyone. Even the religious among us can't be offended by it.

You know, needs of the many

/also practical
 
2013-07-22 09:08:15 PM
I never comment on threads....but I just have to this time...because:

"Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less.  And if you disagree... well then you be nuts."

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAaaa....ahahah..heh...aaah, that made me laugh.

Oh sweetie, if only life were that simple, but therein lies the beauty of it all.

(oh, and btw, actual Ph.D. in this field here, so I'm not just spouting out my ass)

XX and XY is neither the end or the destination...it's merely an...influence, on gender. Sure, most of the genes you need to define "maleness" are on the Y chromosome....but then shiate starts gettin' tricksy. There are a wwhooooooooooollllleeee host of other genes involved (not on the sex chromosomes), including a large number of which that we know diddly-squat about, that if you get one little thing wrong you can get all sorts of strange things going on.

The genes that turn on "gender" (and not just the ones that give the physical appearance) are more of a cascade of events. We know of plenty that when they get mutated cause problems with either testosterone or estrogen production/uptake, including one that interferes with the absorption of testosterone during development, yielding a phenotypical female...until puberty when another testosterone receptor turns on and that person suddenly turns male.... And you thought YOUR puberty was rough! ;)

And don't even get me started on all the new research showing maternal and paternal genes showing different levels of activation in the brain in daughters vs. sons. Meaning, if your a girl yo mamma's genes be rulin your brain, but if you're a boy you get more of your dad's. What controls that? *shrugs* We dunno! Could be anything! What happens when that goes slightly side-wise? Who knows! Point being, the fact that there are people out there who are stuck in a female or male body and yet feel the opposite gender does not surprise me in the least.

/rant off
//how do you know you're the gender you're supposed to be?
 
2013-07-22 09:16:14 PM

Mgalbgib: I never comment on threads....but I just have to this time...because:


/rant off
//how do you know you're the gender you're ...


Now that question I like. If I may...

Supposed to be as determined by whom?
 
2013-07-22 09:18:16 PM

Luse: Once again, very practical approach.

As for your relationship, congratulations. Your plans must really be cool to your husband, as he gets you in both flavors so to speak. You could probably write a book about it.

All I am saying is that your situation is incredibly rare when you weigh it against 7 billion people. If nothing else, the two stories I mentioned earlier point to a whole lot of confusion. Now, we need to create a committee and categorize every single possible combination of gender/sex relationship. Yours is quite unique if I may add. This of course leads to everyone having to study up, and keep current with the latest version, as not to be in the wrong wave of course.

I could understand why the simple rule of you use whichever restroom your dangly bits coincide with is attractive.
See, this solution, while admittedly not perfect inconveniences slightly a small percentile of the populous, costs nothing to implement and does not discriminate against anyone. Even the religious among us can't be offended by it.

You know, needs of the many

/also practical


Thank you :) I like how you are approaching this subject and it's rare to see someone approaching this on fark with an open mind.

Yes, I admit: I feel very lucky to have a strong support system and people like me are rare. It's not easy at times (bathrooms in public places are a pain in the ass, but I deal), but I have it GREAT compared with my fellow Transgenders/Transsexuals.

If it helps any, no situation will be "the same" when it comes to being Trans. But if you think about it, no matter what your gender/sex/orientation/relationship status is, NO ONE is really "the same" and in a way, you really can't categorize people to an exact tee. A good example of this would be religion and spirituality (two separate things). You may say "Hey, I am a Baptist", but, it's not that simple. I mean, what TYPE of Baptist are you.

And it's that example above as to why I don't get why people get all picky/upset if they are called the wrong pronoun. Unless the person is being a dick about it (ie, calling the person "it"), I don't understand the jumpiness of some folks. To me, people simply don't know! Why not EDUCATE folks that may not get it. In my case, I'm gonna get called "she" because physically I LOOK like the gender that has been assigned to me be society (farking big boobs, ugh!). I don't get upset about it. I just correct the person. Now if they call me "it", I'm GONNA get pissed off and fire a few f-bombs at the person as I'm walking away.

I guess what I'm really saying when it comes to being Trans/Human in general, we are all Transformers (More than meets the eye, LMFAO!)
 
2013-07-22 09:25:25 PM

mafiageek1980: Luse: Once again, very practical approach.

As for your relationship, congratulations. Your plans must really be cool to your husband, as he gets you in both flavors so to speak. You could probably write a book about it.

All I am saying is that your situation is incredibly rare when you weigh it against 7 billion people. If nothing else, the two stories I mentioned earlier point to a whole lot of confusion. Now, we need to create a committee and categorize every single possible combination of gender/sex relationship. Yours is quite unique if I may add. This of course leads to everyone having to study up, and keep current with the latest version, as not to be in the wrong wave of course.

I could understand why the simple rule of you use whichever restroom your dangly bits coincide with is attractive.
See, this solution, while admittedly not perfect inconveniences slightly a small percentile of the populous, costs nothing to implement and does not discriminate against anyone. Even the religious among us can't be offended by it.

You know, needs of the many

/also practical

Thank you :) I like how you are approaching this subject and it's rare to see someone approaching this on fark with an open mind.

Yes, I admit: I feel very lucky to have a strong support system and people like me are rare. It's not easy at times (bathrooms in public places are a pain in the ass, but I deal), but I have it GREAT compared with my fellow Transgenders/Transsexuals.

If it helps any, no situation will be "the same" when it comes to being Trans. But if you think about it, no matter what your gender/sex/orientation/relationship status is, NO ONE is really "the same" and in a way, you really can't categorize people to an exact tee. A good example of this would be religion and spirituality (two separate things). You may say "Hey, I am a Baptist", but, it's not that simple. I mean, what TYPE of Baptist are you.

And it's that example above as to why I don't get why people get all picky/up ...


^That.  Approaching this conversation with an open mind was easy, so was yours. If you don't try to stick me with a label I'll return the favor. Sadly too many times the "ists" get in and everyone needs a tidey little #labelgoeshere.

Anywho, you sound like someone I'd drink beer with. Cheers!
 
2013-07-22 09:50:11 PM

Luse: mafiageek1980: Luse: Once again, very practical approach.

As for your relationship, congratulations. Your plans must really be cool to your husband, as he gets you in both flavors so to speak. You could probably write a book about it.

All I am saying is that your situation is incredibly rare when you weigh it against 7 billion people. If nothing else, the two stories I mentioned earlier point to a whole lot of confusion. Now, we need to create a committee and categorize every single possible combination of gender/sex relationship. Yours is quite unique if I may add. This of course leads to everyone having to study up, and keep current with the latest version, as not to be in the wrong wave of course.

I could understand why the simple rule of you use whichever restroom your dangly bits coincide with is attractive.
See, this solution, while admittedly not perfect inconveniences slightly a small percentile of the populous, costs nothing to implement and does not discriminate against anyone. Even the religious among us can't be offended by it.

You know, needs of the many

/also practical

Thank you :) I like how you are approaching this subject and it's rare to see someone approaching this on fark with an open mind.

Yes, I admit: I feel very lucky to have a strong support system and people like me are rare. It's not easy at times (bathrooms in public places are a pain in the ass, but I deal), but I have it GREAT compared with my fellow Transgenders/Transsexuals.

If it helps any, no situation will be "the same" when it comes to being Trans. But if you think about it, no matter what your gender/sex/orientation/relationship status is, NO ONE is really "the same" and in a way, you really can't categorize people to an exact tee. A good example of this would be religion and spirituality (two separate things). You may say "Hey, I am a Baptist", but, it's not that simple. I mean, what TYPE of Baptist are you.

And it's that example above as to why I don't get why people g ...


Hell yes! I'm CONVINCED beer could really bring world peace!
 
2013-07-23 01:24:30 AM

Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.


My 23yo daughter has a very furry "happy trail".  While I don't think they are very common, a lot of her peers are very into hair removal, so you wouldn't realize they had one normally.  In her case, she doesn't bother and her bf is ok with it, so she leaves it.  So yeah, one little line of hair does not rule out previous feminine.
 
2013-07-23 01:54:20 AM

balancing act: My 23yo daughter has a very furry "happy trail"


i have to be honest, brutally. I have never heard ones mother call her daughters hair growth a happy trail. And I think thats weird. I can dig it- it sounds like you and your daughter have a healthy relationship, which is awesome. Its just still odd to me, raised as i was, and im only 45 . Glad not everyone had a-holes for parents
Peace and Long Life
 
2013-07-23 02:12:43 AM
I have the weirdest bonercameltoe right now.
 
2013-07-23 09:08:11 AM

mafiageek1980: Luse: mafiageek1980: zabadu: mafiageek1980: Tumunga: Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.
[img.poptower.com image 599x381]

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.

Me too. It's a guilty pleasure, but a FUNNY guilty pleasure! I can't get enough of Joan's foul mouth! She's an inspiration to me, lol! I don't see how Irwin puts up with her, lol!

As for the article, i found it suddenly dusty in my cubical. I am a FTM transgender, but I am keeping my parts (and not taking T) until after I have children. I feel very blessed to have a supportive hubby and friends. My family doesn't quite get it, but they aren't dicks about it either.

So you want to be a girl to have babies, then change to a guy?  Interesting.

yes, very. I find nothing wrong with that at all. I don't deny I was born with my parts, but it doesn't mean I have to like them either. As far as I am considered, I am a guy mentally. I just want to (eventually) turn that mentalness into physical. So yeah, use the damn parts I am annoyed with for a GOOD reason and ditch em after I'm done.

See, now that unfortunately opens up the whole nature vs nurture thing regarding homosexuality.
Also, while I see your approach as highly practical I could also see the other side of the argument. If you dislike/don't feel right being female, why give birth? If there is one thing a woman can do that a man cannot it's that. If you hold affection for that part of you, why give it up?

On a deeper level, WHAT is male or female? Why can't you act butch without a fake penis? Why can't you be feminine with one? I know several fabulous people that certainly are.
I d ...


Man, I'm an open-minded gay man and you confused me a little;-)
 
2013-07-23 10:35:56 AM
Confusing. I find the best way to keep it sorted is to deal with it intersectionally. While there are other factors, the ones which seem most in evidence in this discussion are sex, gender, gender expression, and sexuality. To address the most immediate one temporally, packers. Packers are a prosthetic to effect the presence of a penis. This is where intersectionality comes in. To a transsexual with GID a packer may help to alleviate dysphoria through primary male sex characteristics but to a masculine gynephilic female woman it might just be merely a sexual orientation cue.
 
2013-07-23 01:05:49 PM
you are what your genes say you are, no matter how much you mutilate your body.
 
2013-07-23 01:22:06 PM

yapopo: you are what your genes say you are, no matter how much you mutilate your body.


Why don't you google "47,XXY" or "Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome"
 
2013-07-23 03:42:07 PM

FatPrincess: yapopo: you are what your genes say you are, no matter how much you mutilate your body.

Why don't you google "47,XXY" or "Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome"


I was going to tell him to f*ck himself.  Your answer was nicer and more intelligent.
 
2013-07-23 03:58:05 PM

Buttknuckle: FatPrincess: yapopo: Your answer was nicer and more intelligent.


In a way, it was kind of stupid since karotypes is pretty much what yapopo meant by gene expression, but I wanted more of a 'LMGTFY so you can GTFO' feel instead of continuing the conversation. Maybe GID is genetic! You know what else is genetic? Cystic fibrosis. Sickle-cell. Let's not mutilate people who have these disorders.
 
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