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(The Sun)   Not News: Cute teen couple pose in their swimwear. FARK: They were both born the opposite sex (w/pics)   (thesun.co.uk) divider line 216
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31790 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jul 2013 at 5:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-22 01:30:57 PM

Luse: 12349876: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.

So all the ladies in the thread are totally cool with me hanging out in women's restrooms, yah?

/Always did say I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
//Where did that carpet square go?


In all seriousness I wouldn't care. If you want to experience all the disgusting things that happen in the women's bathroom, so be it.
 
2013-07-22 01:37:38 PM

airsupport: And the first time they had sex they discovered that their surgically-cobbled-together genitals, loose approximations of the real thing freakishly fused together from elbow skin, butt fat and cadaver cartilage, were almost useless for actual intercourse. And suddenly it wasn't cool anymore.


Jument: The real question is "can they do it"? I assume the answer is "kinda".



Probably with some difficulty. Arin still has his vagina.
 
2013-07-22 01:59:01 PM

RastaKins: airsupport: And the first time they had sex they discovered that their surgically-cobbled-together genitals, loose approximations of the real thing freakishly fused together from elbow skin, butt fat and cadaver cartilage, were almost useless for actual intercourse. And suddenly it wasn't cool anymore.

Jument: The real question is "can they do it"? I assume the answer is "kinda".

Probably with some difficulty. Arin still has his vagina.


"His vagina" is a really odd statement. At least to me.
 
2013-07-22 02:01:25 PM

charmbomb: Luse: 12349876: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.

So all the ladies in the thread are totally cool with me hanging out in women's restrooms, yah?

/Always did say I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
//Where did that carpet square go?

In all seriousness I wouldn't care. If you want to experience all the disgusting things that happen in the women's bathroom, so be it.


It would appear many are not as open minded as you. Recent case involving Anchorage bar kickint out a trans individual (pre-op) I believe.
You have to admit, it is a valid question.

/For a gay guy Andy Dick sure fondles alot of famous boob
//not just sayin
///Super Sayan
 
2013-07-22 02:36:34 PM
I don't know about others, but every time the bathroom question comes up, I kinda wonder who exactly is checking genitals in the restrooms?

IIRC, you guys studiously avoid even glancing at another guys junk, and ladies restrooms have stalls.  In order to "catch" a trans using the wrong restroom, you'd have to make some pretty big assumptions (Hey, they might be a really butch natal female, or an extremely willowy fem male).

I just don't get it.  Is there some kind of "junk check" I've been missing every time I have to go pee?
 
2013-07-22 02:46:07 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I don't know about others, but every time the bathroom question comes up, I kinda wonder who exactly is checking genitals in the restrooms?

IIRC, you guys studiously avoid even glancing at another guys junk, and ladies restrooms have stalls.  In order to "catch" a trans using the wrong restroom, you'd have to make some pretty big assumptions (Hey, they might be a really butch natal female, or an extremely willowy fem male).

I just don't get it.  Is there some kind of "junk check" I've been missing every time I have to go pee?


You do know not all trans folks look like the ones in tfa right? They can also be preop, and look like Chuck Lidell.

Another case I read about recently Young boy likes wearing nothing but dresses, uses girls bathroom. He was busted because in spite of stalls most young girls don't stand facing toilet while urinating.
 
2013-07-22 02:58:40 PM

xennex: Hormones and surgery can do a lot of things but growing cartilage for the adams apple?


Replacement sex hormones do have an effect on all secondary sex characteristics, including skeletal growth.  The catch with skeletal growth is that there is a window of opportunity only during puberty for it to have an effect.  Once you reach about age 20, HRT will have little effect on your skeleton outside of bone density.

So for those doing M2F transitioning, estrogen will restrict their height, will make their pelvis wider, their frame smaller, their eye sockets more shallow, their jawline softer, their brow flatter and hands/feet smaller.  For F2M transitioning, testosterone does the opposite.

So the earlier one starts HRT (or at a minimum, hormone blockers), the less cosmetic surgery they will need down the road as an adult.  Not to mention that some things, like the size of ones' ribcage, feet and hands, cannot be practically altered through surgery in adulthood.
 
2013-07-22 03:17:01 PM

Luse: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I don't know about others, but every time the bathroom question comes up, I kinda wonder who exactly is checking genitals in the restrooms?

IIRC, you guys studiously avoid even glancing at another guys junk, and ladies restrooms have stalls.  In order to "catch" a trans using the wrong restroom, you'd have to make some pretty big assumptions (Hey, they might be a really butch natal female, or an extremely willowy fem male).

I just don't get it.  Is there some kind of "junk check" I've been missing every time I have to go pee?

You do know not all trans folks look like the ones in tfa right? They can also be preop, and look like Chuck Lidell.

Another case I read about recently Young boy likes wearing nothing but dresses, uses girls bathroom. He was busted because in spite of stalls most young girls don't stand facing toilet while urinating.


Ohh I know not all us trans people are "passing" by society norms.  Typically though, most trans people at least make a minimal attempt to pass as the opposite gender.  You aren't going to see many hair-covered, beard growing, shaggy MtFs wandering into a public restroom marked "female".  Most of us know better, and sit down when using the facilities, such things like that.

The whole bathroom argument is...silly.  I've been full-time for many years.  Once I get in the stall, it's nobodies business but my own what I have between my legs.  The *one* time I was asked, I responded with "Yeah, birth defect, too much testosterone as a teenager".  There's lots of big, burly butch ladies out there, and plenty of willowy, fem males.  Unless you make it a point to let people know, then nobody cares.
 
2013-07-22 03:28:15 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Luse: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I don't know about others, but every time the bathroom question comes up, I kinda wonder who exactly is checking genitals in the restrooms?

IIRC, you guys studiously avoid even glancing at another guys junk, and ladies restrooms have stalls.  In order to "catch" a trans using the wrong restroom, you'd have to make some pretty big assumptions (Hey, they might be a really butch natal female, or an extremely willowy fem male).

I just don't get it.  Is there some kind of "junk check" I've been missing every time I have to go pee?

You do know not all trans folks look like the ones in tfa right? They can also be preop, and look like Chuck Lidell.

Another case I read about recently Young boy likes wearing nothing but dresses, uses girls bathroom. He was busted because in spite of stalls most young girls don't stand facing toilet while urinating.

Ohh I know not all us trans people are "passing" by society norms.  Typically though, most trans people at least make a minimal attempt to pass as the opposite gender.  You aren't going to see many hair-covered, beard growing, shaggy MtFs wandering into a public restroom marked "female".  Most of us know better, and sit down when using the facilities, such things like that.

The whole bathroom argument is...silly.  I've been full-time for many years.  Once I get in the stall, it's nobodies business but my own what I have between my legs.  The *one* time I was asked, I responded with "Yeah, birth defect, too much testosterone as a teenager".  There's lots of big, burly butch ladies out there, and plenty of willowy, fem males.  Unless you make it a point to let people know, then nobody cares.


I am glad that your experience is a fairly easy one.

I just gave you 2 recent real world examples showing that not all women are at ease with it.

Regardless of how a person may identify, a smaller woman might, and have become alarmed at the sight of an apparent male or impostor.

Also, what would stop a male from entering a ladiesroom and claim he identifies himself as a she?

See my Andy Dick comment. For a gay guy he grabs alot of boob.
/I know he's "gay" and not trans.
 
2013-07-22 03:30:58 PM

Matthew Keene: Yeah, I guess it's a real drag living in the wrong body. I'm 58, balding, slightly overweight. I wonder if they can help me. This is what I want to look like.

[i14.photobucket.com image 338x600]


I've read two autobiographies by TG people. You're thinking the surgery is some kind of magic; walk in male and walk out looking like that girl in the pic. In the cases I read about it's closer to: Spend several years in therapy, thousands of hours dealing with maddening side-effects of hormone blockers and opposite hormones, practice being your new gender fulltime for a year while simultaneously losing your friends and family and trying to make new ones, and THEN drop $50,000 on painful surgery with significant lifetime maintenance needs.

You could look like that picture you posted for one-tenth as much effort and money. You just don't want it nearly bad enough...same as me.
 
2013-07-22 03:47:22 PM
its also important to remember that there are many cultures in the world that have far more than two genders.

in a large percentage of tribal based cultures around the world, there are at least three, and sometimes up to eight different gender identities.

north american tribes had three, and sometimes four genders. even in the judaic tradition there are six different genders identified.

(if anyone wants the list of the names of different genders from north american tribes, or the judaic ones, email me, its too long to post here)

i, personally, do not understand how anyone can be comfortable living in a rigid binary structure. that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, or that i have any right to be dismissive or demeaning about their choice.

someone doesn't understand my gender identity? if they want to, i'm happy to explain it, if they don't want to, fine.

not understanding and not wanting to is not license to tell me i'm wrong, or sick, or in any way condemn my choices.

usually i refer people to the work of kate bornstein if they do want to educate themselves. two of her books, 'gender outlaw', and 'my gender workbook', are amazingly clear explanations of a lot of these issues.
 
2013-07-22 03:55:35 PM

Luse: charmbomb: Luse: 12349876: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.

So all the ladies in the thread are totally cool with me hanging out in women's restrooms, yah?

/Always did say I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
//Where did that carpet square go?

In all seriousness I wouldn't care. If you want to experience all the disgusting things that happen in the women's bathroom, so be it.

It would appear many are not as open minded as you. Recent case involving Anchorage bar kickint out a trans individual (pre-op) I believe.
You have to admit, it is a valid question.

/For a gay guy Andy Dick sure fondles alot of famous boob
//not just sayin
///Super Sayan


There are plenty of uptight people that like to get outraged over things, you can always find examples. As long as there is a stall, I don't care. Pretty much everyone I know wouldn't care. Man or woman.

And I live in the Super Red Arizona. IMHO: Everybody poops. It's the great equalizer.
 
2013-07-22 03:59:23 PM

Luse: See my Andy Dick comment. For a gay guy he grabs alot of boob.
/I know he's "gay" and not trans.


Andy Dick isn't gay.  In fact, he has three children from two separate marriages.

But, y'know, keep on making assumptions without research.  It tends to discredit everything else you say and makes it easier for people to tear down your posts.
 
2013-07-22 04:03:14 PM

charmbomb: Luse: charmbomb: Luse: 12349876: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.

So all the ladies in the thread are totally cool with me hanging out in women's restrooms, yah?

/Always did say I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
//Where did that carpet square go?

In all seriousness I wouldn't care. If you want to experience all the disgusting things that happen in the women's bathroom, so be it.

It would appear many are not as open minded as you. Recent case involving Anchorage bar kickint out a trans individual (pre-op) I believe.
You have to admit, it is a valid question.

/For a gay guy Andy Dick sure fondles alot of famous boob
//not just sayin
///Super Sayan

There are plenty of uptight people that like to get outraged over things, you can always find examples. As long as there is a stall, I don't care. Pretty much everyone I know wouldn't care. Man or woman.

And I live in the Super Red Arizona. IMHO: Everybody poops. It's the great equalizer.


And the people in your social circle are representative of the US populous.
I'm sorry but see what happens if a little girl comes out of a bathroom and says, "Daddy, there was a man in a dress in there."
 
2013-07-22 04:04:08 PM

Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.


There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.
 
2013-07-22 04:06:34 PM
Charmbomb:
Also, I am for accomadating people to help them be more comfortable. I have listed 2 recent cases where the general public was not.
Why does your comfort trump theirs?

/Needs of the many and all
 
2013-07-22 04:08:46 PM

radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.


Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks
 
2013-07-22 04:10:39 PM

Luse: And the people in your social circle are representative of the US populous.
I'm sorry but see what happens if a little girl comes out of a bathroom and says, "Daddy, there was a man in a dress in there."


Here's what happens.  Little girl says that.  Parents hang around the bathroom door.  Parents may or may not notice the poor lady who has an issue with POCS, and looks more masculine than the ideal.  If parents notice, they have a discussion with the little girl about how we don't make assumptions about people based on their looks.

I know, in certain fantasy worlds, the heroic little girl and on the ball parents spot the evil perv guy who was using the ladies bathroom for nefarious purposes, but...that really doesn't happen.


You poop. I poop.  Sometimes you have to use public restrooms.  Sometimes I do.  Pick the one most appropriate to your identity.  Do your business, get out.


Really, the bathroom argument just reeks of "There's a potential for outrage, so we must ban it!"  Lets revisit the issue when there's a pool of documented transgender people using the restroom for perv activities.
 
2013-07-22 04:14:21 PM
Geez.  Arin is really cute.
 
2013-07-22 04:14:56 PM

Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks


He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.
 
2013-07-22 04:17:41 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Luse: And the people in your social circle are representative of the US populous.
I'm sorry but see what happens if a little girl comes out of a bathroom and says, "Daddy, there was a man in a dress in there."

Here's what happens.  Little girl says that.  Parents hang around the bathroom door.  Parents may or may not notice the poor lady who has an issue with POCS, and looks more masculine than the ideal.  If parents notice, they have a discussion with the little girl about how we don't make assumptions about people based on their looks.

I know, in certain fantasy worlds, the heroic little girl and on the ball parents spot the evil perv guy who was using the ladies bathroom for nefarious purposes, but...that really doesn't happen.


You poop. I poop.  Sometimes you have to use public restrooms.  Sometimes I do.  Pick the one most appropriate to your identity.  Do your business, get out.


Really, the bathroom argument just reeks of "There's a potential for outrage, so we must ban it!"  Lets revisit the issue when there's a pool of documented transgender people using the restroom for perv activities.


Then make a push for unisex bathrooms. I don't disagree. I do not care who is next to me squeezing a deuce.

You nor I are the norm. Most people in the US are not comfortable with the possessor of a penis entering a ladies room.
I am simply not entitled enough to demand that they change it just for me.
 
2013-07-22 04:20:47 PM

radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks

He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.


And it is completely inconcievable that someone might use, "I identify as a woman." as an excuse to enter a women's locker room @ a gym for example.
 
2013-07-22 04:22:53 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: You aren't going to see many hair-covered, beard growing, shaggy MtFs wandering into a public restroom marked "female".  Most of us know better, and sit down when using the facilities, such things like that.


this
 
2013-07-22 04:27:47 PM

Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks

He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.

And it is completely inconcievable that someone might use, "I identify as a woman." as an excuse to enter a women's locker room @ a gym for example.


I don't care about that.  I didn't even read the rest of your post and neither know nor care where you stand on the issue.  But Andy's name caught my eye and when I read your statement about him I said, "Well, there goes any credibility that person had, regardless of where s/he stands on the issue of transgendered people."

I had to point it out because I felt that it was my responsibility to inform a fellow Farker that when you make provably false statements due to assumptions and lack of research nobody will take anything else you say in the thread seriously, no matter how correct you are or what the topic is.

Let it be a lesson.
 
2013-07-22 04:30:01 PM

alienated: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: You aren't going to see many hair-covered, beard growing, shaggy MtFs wandering into a public restroom marked "female".  Most of us know better, and sit down when using the facilities, such things like that.

this


Except one trans person in the thread said "when I get questioned".
Google humpy's transgender.

Except for those 2 quick examples I wont hear it. Right?
 
2013-07-22 04:30:09 PM

Luse: Then make a push for unisex bathrooms. I don't disagree. I do not care who is next to me squeezing a deuce.

You nor I are the norm. Most people in the US are not comfortable with the possessor of a penis entering a ladies room.
I am simply not entitled enough to demand that they change it just for me.


That's why you don't announce your possession of said equipment.  You go in, do your business, and get back out.  The only time said equipment should be "on display" is in the semi-privacy of a stall.

Should, by some rare occurrence that a MtF gets "found out", I've found that the vast majority of people are sympathetic to the issue once informed.  As long as your intentions are innocent, it typically isn't a problem.


Personal anecdote time, I came out and started full-time while employed.  My female co-workers were almost dragging me in the ladies room, to fix makeup, give beauty tips, and girl talk with "the new girl".  It was the men that had issues and brought up the bathroom arguments.
 
2013-07-22 04:31:15 PM
Wow, so this thread is about bathroom etiquette now?  Why do TG threads always end up devolving into a thread about bathroom etiquette?

Newsflash, folks-  outside of Deutschland, almost nobody of any gender wants to be near anyone else of any gender while they're having a messy push.  Your fears are unfounded.
 
2013-07-22 04:35:53 PM

radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks

He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.

And it is completely inconcievable that someone might use, "I identify as a woman." as an excuse to enter a women's locker room @ a gym for example.

I don't care about that.  I didn't even read the rest of your post and neither know nor care where you stand on the issue.  But Andy's name caught my eye and when I read your statement about him I said, "Well, there goes any credibility that person had, regardless of where s/he stands on the issue of transgendered people."

I had to point it out because I felt that it was my responsibility to inform a fellow Farker that when you make provably false statements due to assumptions and lack of research nobody will take anything else you say in the thread seriously, no matter how correct you are or what the topic is.

Let it be a lesson.


If you wish. I only said he was gay becauase I have heard him self identify as such. I did not read his life story nor do I care to.
The fact that he either mis identified himself or changed what he identifies himself as actually furthers my point.
Women and men in the US are overall uncomfortable with genetic males in a "female only" place.
Part of the concern about trans is you must take their word. Even if they are Andy Dick.
 
2013-07-22 04:37:56 PM
Fast Moon:  ...I agree that "otherkin" are delusional attention-seekers piggybacking on a legitimate mental condition in order to claim some sort of validity...

Thank you.  I don't like feeling like I'm being insensitive in these matters, but I can't help but roll my eyes at some of these delineations.  Waking up feeling like a girl today and a boy the next seems like just straight-up attention whoring.  And it cheapens the issues faced by people that were actually born with the wrong parts.
 
2013-07-22 04:39:40 PM

radarlove: Why do TG threads always end up devolving into a thread about bathroom etiquette?


Much the same way debates about equal protection against discrimination for Trans folks happens in state assemblies, state senates and city council meetings. Some folks just look for an excuse, any excuse to deny equal protection or rights. Kind of like how letting the gay folks marry will unleash a flood of man on turtle sex, etc.
When one lacks a strong argument against equality, or even a logical one, they resort to the most far fetched things they can imagine.Or, perhaps, fantasize about.
 
2013-07-22 04:40:12 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Luse: Then make a push for unisex bathrooms. I don't disagree. I do not care who is next to me squeezing a deuce.

You nor I are the norm. Most people in the US are not comfortable with the possessor of a penis entering a ladies room.
I am simply not entitled enough to demand that they change it just for me.

That's why you don't announce your possession of said equipment.  You go in, do your business, and get back out.  The only time said equipment should be "on display" is in the semi-privacy of a stall.

Should, by some rare occurrence that a MtF gets "found out", I've found that the vast majority of people are sympathetic to the issue once informed.  As long as your intentions are innocent, it typically isn't a problem.


Personal anecdote time, I came out and started full-time while employed.  My female co-workers were almost dragging me in the ladies room, to fix makeup, give beauty tips, and girl talk with "the new girl".  It was the men that had issues and brought up the bathroom arguments.


I am very glad for you.
I am assuming you knew these women and have developed a positive relationship with them. Speaks well for you as a person.

You however still ignore the examples I gave.
 
2013-07-22 04:45:46 PM

alienated: radarlove: Why do TG threads always end up devolving into a thread about bathroom etiquette?

Much the same way debates about equal protection against discrimination for Trans folks happens in state assemblies, state senates and city council meetings. Some folks just look for an excuse, any excuse to deny equal protection or rights. Kind of like how letting the gay folks marry will unleash a flood of man on turtle sex, etc.
When one lacks a strong argument against equality, or even a logical one, they resort to the most far fetched things they can imagine.Or, perhaps, fantasize about.


Sorry but I am for equality. Marriage, race, sex, you name it.
I am also for NO special treatment of anyone other than children or the disabled.
 
2013-07-22 04:46:20 PM
Okay.
 
2013-07-22 04:47:58 PM

Qellaqan: codergirl42: Qellaqan: I think people have trouble understanding trangender because we think of surgery and it involves so much pain. I know it's a total speculation, but I can't imagine feeling upset enough to undergo surgery, even if I were forced to live my life as a man rather than a woman. In fact, I've felt annoyed by the idea that there are behaviors for men and behaviors for women. Can't I just be a person? That seems to have been the movement for years, but this seems to go against the flow of that.

I think this is what just puzzles people who don't know any transgendered people in life and don't have those feelings either. It's different than the reaction to people who are gay, because, honestly, what is the harm in bumping uglies with a different set of parts? But surgery and hormones and therapy, are, well, frightening and kind of alarming. It's hard to understand feeling the need for that, and thus the mind goes toward those people who want their limbs amputated and munchausen's and the like.

As someone who is not transgendered and has been a bit skeptical, the feeling that there must be some other way comes up. I'll accept that there isn't, but I think there's more going on than petty squeamishness for many people. Maybe it's this kind of reaction that leads people to try to treat cancer with holistic medicine-- the overwhelming feeling that horrible chemicals like chemotherapy couldn't possibly help matters.

Not all trans people need or want surgery and hormones. It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves, under the guidance of a therapist and a doctor. Some states now don't even require surgery as a prerequisite to have gender marker changed on your documentation.

I'm all for people living happier lives and I'm happy to hear that. I know I assumed all transgenders (my computer is always correcting this word to transponders, which amuses me because I'm special) has surgery before I read the threads here over the years, so I wou ...


Maybe that's what the SUN needs to do for their next article: "Transgender Person Leads Normal Life"
 
2013-07-22 04:49:31 PM

Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks

He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.

And it is completely inconcievable that someone might use, "I identify as a woman." as an excuse to enter a women's locker room @ a gym for example.

I don't care about that.  I didn't even read the rest of your post and neither know nor care where you stand on the issue.  But Andy's name caught my eye and when I read your statement about him I said, "Well, there goes any credibility that person had, regardless of where s/he stands on the issue of transgendered people."

I had to point it out because I felt that it was my responsibility to inform a fellow Farker that when you make provably false statements due to assumptions and lack of research nobody will take anything else you say in the thread seriously, no matter how correct you are or what the topic is.

Let it be a lesson.

If you wish. I only said he was gay becauase I have heard him self identify as such. I did not read his life story nor do I care to.
The fact that he either mis identified himself or changed what he identifies himself as actually furthers my point.
Women and men in the US are overall uncomfortable with genetic males in a "female only" place.
Part of the concern about trans is you must take their word. Even if they are Andy Dick.


Again, I don't care about your point or position.  Through intellectual laziness, you posted information that is fairly widely known as false.  Ergo, all previous and subsequent posts of yours will be viewed by people as equally intellectually lazy.  That Andy ever claimed to be gay is irrelevant, because it is widely known that he is not and said information is very easily available by typing the name "Andy Dick" into any search engine..  Similarly, Rock Hudson and Mr. Brady claimed to be straight, but if you were to go into a thread and claim that either of them were straight you would discredit everything else you say in the thread because it is widely known that they were, in fact, gay.

Regardless of whatever the hell your point is, my point is that nobody is going to take your point seriously, because you've proven yourself to be intellectually lazy.

Always remember to do your research before making a factual post, regardless of how benign and blatantly obvious you feel your fact is.  Because if you're wrong, you discredit everything else you say, no matter how factually correct and important it may be.

Better luck next thread!  =)
 
2013-07-22 04:54:48 PM

alienated: Or, perhaps, fantasize about.


*shudder*

Please don't tell me that Pat Robertson fantasizes about molesting underage turtles (or just a young and virile Mitch McConnell) while they're having a poo.  I just don't think I can process that level of ick.
 
2013-07-22 05:15:44 PM
Is this stuff fabricated by the media to feed the voracious appetite of the slack-jawed viewing public, or are/were they genuinely attracted to each other because of similar experiences and backgrounds regarding their respective sexual orientation? Hmmm?

/betting on some form of shenanigans
 
2013-07-22 05:24:08 PM

Bung_Howdy: Is this stuff fabricated by the media to feed the voracious appetite of the slack-jawed viewing public, or are/were they genuinely attracted to each other because of similar experiences and backgrounds regarding their respective sexual orientation? Hmmm?

/betting on some form of shenanigans


There are links upthread that will take you to several articles about this couple and their experiences, and most of them are from very reputable media outlets.
 
2013-07-22 05:28:59 PM

Bung_Howdy

Here you are, I've saved you the caloric expenditure of having to scroll and search the thread:


Southern100: It's not BS.. They're from Oklahoma and have been cited in numerous news articles:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Much_has_changed_in_year_for_ Bi xby_transgender_teen/20120603_11_a1_cutlin564530

http://now.msn.com/katie-hill-and-arin-andrews-are-teen-transgender- co uple

http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/5274-a-teen-love-story-unlike -a ny-other

http://www.medicaldaily.com/articles/13124/20121114/young-couple-fin ds -love-both-undergo-transgender.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/crazy-stupid-love-on-2 02 0-airing-friday-february-15-at-10-pm-on-abc/

 
2013-07-22 05:33:56 PM

radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: radarlove: Luse: For a gay mildly femmy bisexual guy he grabs alot of boob sure does like marrying and having children with people of the opposite gender an awful lot, and occasionally has romances with men as well.

There we go, all better.  Though it does lose most of its impact.

Actually it works even better. Since he claimed to be gay in the past and that was his excuse.
Thanks

He first married in '86.  His first kid was born in '88.  Everybody who has ever met Andy Dick knows he's not gay.  His excuse for his lecherous behavior, as far as I've seen, has always been that he's an alcoholic and addict.

And it is completely inconcievable that someone might use, "I identify as a woman." as an excuse to enter a women's locker room @ a gym for example.

I don't care about that.  I didn't even read the rest of your post and neither know nor care where you stand on the issue.  But Andy's name caught my eye and when I read your statement about him I said, "Well, there goes any credibility that person had, regardless of where s/he stands on the issue of transgendered people."

I had to point it out because I felt that it was my responsibility to inform a fellow Farker that when you make provably false statements due to assumptions and lack of research nobody will take anything else you say in the thread seriously, no matter how correct you are or what the topic is.

Let it be a lesson.

If you wish. I only said he was gay becauase I have heard him self identify as such. I did not read his life story nor do I care to.
The fact that he either mis identified himself or changed what he identifies himself as actually furthers my point.
Women and men in the US are overall uncomfortable with genetic males in a "female only" place.
Part of the concern about trans is you must take their word. Even if they are Andy Dick.

Again, I don't care about your point or position.  Through intellectual laziness, you posted information that is fairly widely known as false.  Ergo, all previous and subsequent posts of yours will be viewed by people as equally intellectually lazy.  That Andy ever claimed to be gay is irrelevant, because it is widely known that he is not and said information is very easily available by typing the name "Andy Dick" into any search engine..  Similarly, Rock Hudson and Mr. Brady claimed to be straight, but if you were to go into a thread and claim that either of them were straight you would discredit everything else you say in the thread because it is widely known that they were, in fact, gay.

Regardless of whatever the hell your point is, my point is that nobody is going to take your point seriously, because you've proven yourself to be intellectually lazy.

Always remember to do your research before making a factual post, regardless of how benign and blatantly obvious you feel your fact is.  Because if you're wrong, you discredit everything else you say, no matter how factually correct and important it may be.

Better luck next thread!  =)


Ok, I will type slower so you can understand.
The POINT of me using parentheses for gay when talking about Andy is because he is not, but claims to be.

This is relevant because our trans friends identify with, and act as the opposite sex, even pre op. Their arguement is that a simple (self identifying) statement should be sufficient.

So.

You are technically (the best kind of) correct, Dick is not gay.
You are also a pedantic douche.
Better?
 
2013-07-22 05:38:28 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: arents hang around the bathroom door.  Parents may or may not notice the poor lady who has an issue with POCS, and looks more masculine than the ideal.  If parents notice, they have a discussion with the little girl about how we don't make assumptions about people based on their looks.


And two news stories out of how many transgender people using the restrooms is also representative of the general pop? Do you know how many transgender people in the US use the restroom in a given day with no issue? Quite a bit.

If my child came out of the bathroom and said that, I would say "Yeah, some dudes like to wear dresses." and that would be that. Just like, if my child asked me why two women were kissing on the street corner, I'd say "Some women love women." A practical answer for a non-issue situation, because if one of my own children happens to grow up and decides they aren't comfortable in their bodies, or they are gay, or whatever, I would treat it the same as if they were straight, if they wanted to be an astronaut or anything else.

I have enough empathy to treat others different from me with respect and dignity, I would teach my child the same, and the majority of people I run into do the same as well. It's human. A very small amount of people actually care enough to make it an issue.
 
2013-07-22 05:48:27 PM

charmbomb: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: arents hang around the bathroom door.  Parents may or may not notice the poor lady who has an issue with POCS, and looks more masculine than the ideal.  If parents notice, they have a discussion with the little girl about how we don't make assumptions about people based on their looks.

And two news stories out of how many transgender people using the restrooms is also representative of the general pop? Do you know how many transgender people in the US use the restroom in a given day with no issue? Quite a bit.

If my child came out of the bathroom and said that, I would say "Yeah, some dudes like to wear dresses." and that would be that. Just like, if my child asked me why two women were kissing on the street corner, I'd say "Some women love women." A practical answer for a non-issue situation, because if one of my own children happens to grow up and decides they aren't comfortable in their bodies, or they are gay, or whatever, I would treat it the same as if they were straight, if they wanted to be an astronaut or anything else.

I have enough empathy to treat others different from me with respect and dignity, I would teach my child the same, and the majority of people I run into do the same as well. It's human. A very small amount of people actually care enough to make it an issue.


Well, typically multiple news stories about a topic tend to represent current events better than a CSB.

Having said that, I like your approach to life and raising your kids. We are quite alike actually, minus the kids. Sadly, we are not the majority.
 
2013-07-22 05:48:53 PM

camelclub: When he was a she, it was nsfw to show the nipples.

Now she's a he and it is safe for work to show the nipples.

Why was it bad then, but not bad now?


This!  All nipples should be shown.
 
2013-07-22 05:55:43 PM

Luse: Ok, I will type slower so you can understand.
The POINT of me using parentheses for gay when talking about Andy is because he is not, but claims to be.

This is relevant because our trans friends identify with, and act as the opposite sex, even pre op. Their arguement is that a simple (self identifying) statement should be sufficient.

So.

You are technically (the best kind of) correct, Dick is not gay.
You are also a pedantic douche.
Better?


You're apparently missing my point, which is that I absolutely do not care about what your point is.  It wouldn't matter if this were a conversation about transpersons or Newtonian physics- when you post a piece of information, even if veiled through thin sarcasm, that is factually incorrect, it makes anything else that you say moot because people assume that you've used that same level of intellectual rigor for those statements as well.

I do not know or care what your opinion on the topic at hand is.  I've chosen not to read your opinion on transgenderism because I don't want to be unfairly biased while I'm attempting to educate you.  I'm simply trying to teach you how not to destroy your own arguments.

Is it pedantic?  You betcha.  All internet arguments focus on the details and everyone reading your posts will be dissecting them for those details.  Get those details wrong, and you destroy your credibility.  This is how arguments work, or more topically, how they fall apart.

If you feel that I'm being douchey about it then I apologize.  I bear you no ill will and as I've said I do not know your opinion on the topic and I do not care to.  My posts have been made in an attempt to help you (and any other Farkers reading) to strengthen your arguments in subsequent threads and as such increase the overall quality of discourse on Fark.

You're certainly more than welcome to ignore my advice, but you do so at your own risk.
 
2013-07-22 06:39:11 PM

radarlove: You're certainly more than welcome to ignore my advice, but you do so at your own risk.


I'm ignoring it. I do not feel at risk.
 
2013-07-22 06:44:29 PM

bmihura: radarlove: You're certainly more than welcome to ignore my advice, but you do so at your own risk.

I'm ignoring it. I do not feel at risk.


Groovy!  I must admit, if it were all signal and no noise, it just wouldn't be Fark!  =)
 
2013-07-22 06:49:10 PM

radarlove: Luse: Ok, I will type slower so you can understand.
The POINT of me using parentheses for gay when talking about Andy is because he is not, but claims to be.

This is relevant because our trans friends identify with, and act as the opposite sex, even pre op. Their arguement is that a simple (self identifying) statement should be sufficient.

So.

You are technically (the best kind of) correct, Dick is not gay.
You are also a pedantic douche.
Better?

You're apparently missing my point, which is that I absolutely do not care about what your point is.  It wouldn't matter if this were a conversation about transpersons or Newtonian physics- when you post a piece of information, even if veiled through thin sarcasm, that is factually incorrect, it makes anything else that you say moot because people assume that you've used that same level of intellectual rigor for those statements as well.

I do not know or care what your opinion on the topic at hand is.  I've chosen not to read your opinion on transgenderism because I don't want to be unfairly biased while I'm attempting to educate you.  I'm simply trying to teach you how not to destroy your own arguments.

Is it pedantic?  You betcha.  All internet arguments focus on the details and everyone reading your posts will be dissecting them for those details.  Get those details wrong, and you destroy your credibility.  This is how arguments work, or more topically, how they fall apart.

If you feel that I'm being douchey about it then I apologize.  I bear you no ill will and as I've said I do not know your opinion on the topic and I do not care to.  My posts have been made in an attempt to help you (and any other Farkers reading) to strengthen your arguments in subsequent threads and as such increase the overall quality of discourse on Fark.

You're certainly more than welcome to ignore my advice, but you do so at your own risk.


Notice the way that only you are obsessed with whether Dick is gay? It's because everyone else knew what I meant and decided to talk about the subject at hand, not Dick.
 
img1.ak.crunchyroll.com

 
2013-07-22 06:58:30 PM

zabadu: mafiageek1980: Tumunga: Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.
[img.poptower.com image 599x381]

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.

Me too. It's a guilty pleasure, but a FUNNY guilty pleasure! I can't get enough of Joan's foul mouth! She's an inspiration to me, lol! I don't see how Irwin puts up with her, lol!

As for the article, i found it suddenly dusty in my cubical. I am a FTM transgender, but I am keeping my parts (and not taking T) until after I have children. I feel very blessed to have a supportive hubby and friends. My family doesn't quite get it, but they aren't dicks about it either.

So you want to be a girl to have babies, then change to a guy?  Interesting.


yes, very. I find nothing wrong with that at all. I don't deny I was born with my parts, but it doesn't mean I have to like them either. As far as I am considered, I am a guy mentally. I just want to (eventually) turn that mentalness into physical. So yeah, use the damn parts I am annoyed with for a GOOD reason and ditch em after I'm done.
 
2013-07-22 07:11:11 PM

mafiageek1980: zabadu: mafiageek1980: Tumunga: Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.
[img.poptower.com image 599x381]

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.

Me too. It's a guilty pleasure, but a FUNNY guilty pleasure! I can't get enough of Joan's foul mouth! She's an inspiration to me, lol! I don't see how Irwin puts up with her, lol!

As for the article, i found it suddenly dusty in my cubical. I am a FTM transgender, but I am keeping my parts (and not taking T) until after I have children. I feel very blessed to have a supportive hubby and friends. My family doesn't quite get it, but they aren't dicks about it either.

So you want to be a girl to have babies, then change to a guy?  Interesting.

yes, very. I find nothing wrong with that at all. I don't deny I was born with my parts, but it doesn't mean I have to like them either. As far as I am considered, I am a guy mentally. I just want to (eventually) turn that mentalness into physical. So yeah, use the damn parts I am annoyed with for a GOOD reason and ditch em after I'm done.


See, now that unfortunately opens up the whole nature vs nurture thing regarding homosexuality.
Also, while I see your approach as highly practical I could also see the other side of the argument. If you dislike/don't feel right being female, why give birth? If there is one thing a woman can do that a man cannot it's that. If you hold affection for that part of you, why give it up?

On a deeper level, WHAT is male or female? Why can't you act butch without a fake penis? Why can't you be feminine with one? I know several fabulous people that certainly are.
I dunno, maybe having the dangly bits is more important, all I'm saying is, it'll never work right again mate.
 
2013-07-22 08:26:05 PM

heili skrimsli: WhyteRaven74: octopied: How did the breast removal surgery work, though? Pretty impressive that he has no scars

Get a good surgeon doing the work and not going to be much in the way of scars. Also there's always Photoshop.

I am skeptical that after a month they would even be completely healed from something like that.


I'm way more than skeptical. Even if it was closer to two months, no way there's no sign of it. Surgical incisions leave marks that take years, if not lifetimes to fade.

Heck, I have a couple acne marks on my cheeks from oversize zits that hit about 4 months ago.
 
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