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(The Sun)   Not News: Cute teen couple pose in their swimwear. FARK: They were both born the opposite sex (w/pics)   (thesun.co.uk) divider line 216
    More: Sappy, Katie Hill, girl called  
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31791 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jul 2013 at 5:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-22 09:09:58 AM
Welp, off to the politics tab I go.
 
2013-07-22 09:12:45 AM

sendtodave: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: hh, I *knew* you were going to mention this, everyone does when DSM gets tossed into the mix. I'll give the brief run-down for you.

GID in and of itself has been declassified. Having issues with GID is still classified as a disorder. See my finger example above. If you were born with six fingers on one hand, and are totally happy with it, you don't have a disorder. If having six fingers makes you upset, then the being upset part is the disorder.

Part of that is because, if we totally declassified GID as a disorder, it'd be damn near impossible to get treatment for it. Doing it this way lets us keep an ICD code for people who have a problem, while declassifying gender identity in and of itself.

Isn't that how most (all?) disorders work?

They aren't disorders unless they negatively impact your life?


"It Depends".  You can have structural disorders that don't impact life, that still nets a disorder label.  I've known folks who get diagnosed with ADD, yet it has no impact on life....it's just something that showed up on a test.
 
2013-07-22 09:14:52 AM
Good for them - to each their own, as long as it's not mine. I almost couldn't care less.

At least they won't procreate and have spawn with so many questions about their folks and themselves.
 
2013-07-22 09:15:07 AM
So she doesn't have tits and he doesn't have tits.... no wait...

He who's a she doesn't have tits... err...

She who....

fark it.  I give up.
 
2013-07-22 09:15:32 AM
... although, it does add a whole new dimension to pegging.
 
2013-07-22 09:16:12 AM
xellas84:See, I honestly would like to see citation on this.  I'm honestly NOT being a dick about that, because I can't find any lists of changes, either from the DSM-5's website or from other searches, that show any changes other than changing the NAME of the disord ...

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Gender%20Dysphoria%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf  for your sourcing.

Also, check yo' yahoo mail.
 
2013-07-22 09:36:21 AM

Rosyna: Can't we get more photos that make the penis confused and angry?


Yeah, I'm not ashamed to say if I hit it off with a post op male to female trans, and the surgery was good, I wouldn't let it bother.  Of course I'm married, so that's all hypothetical.

Former boy in TFA is pretty damn good looking.  If she dropped trou and still had a penis though, that'd turn me off.
 
2013-07-22 09:40:48 AM
The only problem I have with transfolks is that I know so many and all in different stages that I get all my pronouns all farked around. This has caused an embarrassing situation more than once.

That said, with the exception of two, maybe three, every person I know who'd transitioned were waaaaaaay easier to deal with afterwards than before. The remainder, well, their issues were bountiful and many, and had nothing to do with their gender.
 
2013-07-22 09:44:00 AM
Fake, fake, fake.

Hormones and surgery can do a lot of things but growing cartilage for the adams apple?
 
2013-07-22 09:45:18 AM
For anyone calling bullshiat on this article (I mean, they are still teens and not fully developed), look at the hips. I'm not a biology/anatomy major or anything. You can chop or build sexual organs, you can shave an adam's apple or brow bone, you can take hormones for hair growth. But you can't do anything about hip bones.


/Good for them, btw.
 
2013-07-22 09:46:29 AM

Tumunga: Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.
[img.poptower.com image 599x381]

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.


Me too. It's a guilty pleasure, but a FUNNY guilty pleasure! I can't get enough of Joan's foul mouth! She's an inspiration to me, lol! I don't see how Irwin puts up with her, lol!

As for the article, i found it suddenly dusty in my cubical. I am a FTM transgender, but I am keeping my parts (and not taking T) until after I have children. I feel very blessed to have a supportive hubby and friends. My family doesn't quite get it, but they aren't dicks about it either.
 
2013-07-22 09:46:46 AM

WhyteRaven74: Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger

See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.


Fair enough. I don't think most of us who ask that question have any animosity towards people who have to deal with this-it's just that the surgery part seems to be such a terrible solution.
 
2013-07-22 09:47:58 AM
They look happy.

Good for them!
 
2013-07-22 09:48:55 AM

Whiskey Pete: WhyteRaven74: Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger

See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.

Fair enough. I don't think most of us who ask that question have any animosity towards people who have to deal with this-it's just that the surgery part seems to be such a terrible solution.


....it just seems so Jocelyn Wildensteineey.
 
2013-07-22 09:57:18 AM

bencoon: The only problem I have with transfolks is that I know so many and all in different stages that I get all my pronouns all farked around. This has caused an embarrassing situation more than once.

That said, with the exception of two, maybe three, every person I know who'd transitioned were waaaaaaay easier to deal with afterwards than before. The remainder, well, their issues were bountiful and many, and had nothing to do with their gender.


It's all the attention and the Prozac.
 
2013-07-22 09:58:16 AM

charmbomb: For anyone calling bullshiat on this article (I mean, they are still teens and not fully developed), look at the hips. I'm not a biology/anatomy major or anything. You can chop or build sexual organs, you can shave an adam's apple or brow bone, you can take hormones for hair growth. But you can't do anything about hip bones.

/Good for them, btw.


It's not BS.. They're from Oklahoma and have been cited in numerous news articles:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Much_has_changed_in_year_for_ Bi xby_transgender_teen/20120603_11_a1_cutlin564530

http://now.msn.com/katie-hill-and-arin-andrews-are-teen-transgender- co uple

http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/5274-a-teen-love-story-unlike -a ny-other

http://www.medicaldaily.com/articles/13124/20121114/young-couple-fin ds -love-both-undergo-transgender.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/crazy-stupid-love-on-2 02 0-airing-friday-february-15-at-10-pm-on-abc/

(As you can see from the bottom article, this was the couple on 20/20 back in February).
 
2013-07-22 09:59:20 AM

Gunther: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

There's a difference between gender and sex. At a chromosomal level we're all stuck with the sex we're born with, that doesn't mean we can't identify more strongly with the different gender. Most of us are lucky enough to have gender and sex match up, for some people they're different.

Anyhow, it's not a big deal for you to refer to people as the gender they identify as rather than as the sex they were born, is it? Even if you personally can't understand why someone would want to make the transition it's not like it somehow takes away from your masculinity/femininity, any more than gay people getting married somehow undermines your straight marriage.


It's a big deal when a female doesn't have to sign up for Selective Service, isn't allowed in combat roles, etc.
 
2013-07-22 10:11:08 AM
A lot of people got marked with purple in this thread.
 
2013-07-22 10:39:00 AM

bhcompy: , isn't allowed in combat roles,


Well lucky for everyone that's being done away with. Indeed the Air Force did away with it years ago.
 
2013-07-22 10:47:42 AM

Rincewind53: Though he kept the bottom parts


im pro rights on the trans gender issue (none of my freaking business, but I support the happiness of my fellow human beings so I help where possible)
But how is that a male if the lower bits were not changed ? Ive seen plenty of dedicated females with muscles, facial hair, and tats - that were not in any way transgender (nor wish to be) some of them are pretty freaking ugly.

// both are hot, Id be lucky to get either end of that equation into bed ... the lack of change makes it even more interesting.
 
2013-07-22 10:48:26 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Something doesn't sit right with these pictures. Bone structure and muscle development looks too masculine and feminine.


I believe it-- the hips don't lie. The hips always give away especially the m2f transgenders for me. His hips are also unusual for a young man.
 
2013-07-22 10:49:43 AM

WhyteRaven74: bhcompy: , isn't allowed in combat roles,

Well lucky for everyone that's being done away with. Indeed the Air Force did away with it years ago.


Hopefully one day they can die for their country involuntarily while being drafted as well.
 
2013-07-22 10:52:01 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: That's great kids. Are you going to make a big deal out of it? Do you want me to make a big deal out of it?

No? Then enjoy. I'm glad you're happy.


This.

Cool story if true. Good for them.
 
2013-07-22 10:58:29 AM
When he was a she, it was nsfw to show the nipples.

Now she's a he and it is safe for work to show the nipples.

Why was it bad then, but not bad now?
 
2013-07-22 10:58:29 AM

xellas84: doofusgumby: xellas84: Rincewind53: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.

I'm still of the mindset that you have 'biological sex' and then 'mental illness'.  Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less.  And if you disagree... well then you be nuts.

Then again, if that's their choice, I suppose they are entitled to it.  I mean, we've got people who choose to get metal shoved through their junk too, it's just yet another expensive body mod.  But I don't legitimize it by saying that it's anything but someone who's mildly crazy getting support from people who should be trying to talk them back into sense.  This is basically like someone saying they're an alchoholic and having their friends and family hand them 40's instead of getting them proper help.

Welcome to the dustbin of history. Your "mindset" is now one of prejudice and ignorance.

People who feel they are the wrong sex are driven crazy by people like you, usualy in their own family.

Really?  I'd think that paying attention to physical reality is kind of important.

These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek insisting they're a vulcan and having their ears pointed and refusing to acknowledge that they are human.  If that happened, people around them would rightly say "Hey, no you aren't.  See, your genetics prove it."  Same thing here... they have a mental problem that doesn't line up with physical reality.  Someone should be pointing to these people and saying "No, see, you aren't a woman, you were born with a penis, you need to accept that yes, you ARE a male, and that the part of your brain saying otherwise is not normal and you should ignore it."

As posted elsewhere, we have disorders in the mind that make people insist that they are an amputee and their limbs aren't supposed to be there.  Surgeons won't remove those offending limbs now will they?  This is a form of mental illness.  A mild one to be certain, and these people are no danger to themselves or others.  Hell they have a right to request whatever mods they want to their own bodies, but let's not treat it as anything but a disorder.  Remember, the definition of disorder is "a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions", and having your brain insist that your body is the wrong gender is definitely a disruption in mental health.


I completely disagree with you, but that helps me see the other arguments. Although I *do* disagree, what you wrote was concise and makes sense without being emotional. I'm usually ready to jump down the throat of or be dismissive of this type of stance regarding gender. Thanks for the different perspective.
 
2013-07-22 11:04:40 AM

Gunther: Anyhow, it's not a big deal for you to refer to people as the gender they identify as rather than as the sex they were born, is it?


Ignacio Gonzalez de Arriba identified himself as the reincarnation of Christ. He got busted in Mexico fairly recently because his followers treated him like he was, and got all cult-y.

Perhaps it's not the best idea to mindlessly indulge someone's delusion of grandeur.
 
2013-07-22 11:11:29 AM

Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surgery. It's a valid question.


One person's mental illness is another person's physical deformity. Your mileage will vary.
 
2013-07-22 11:19:46 AM

Southern100: charmbomb: For anyone calling bullshiat on this article (I mean, they are still teens and not fully developed), look at the hips. I'm not a biology/anatomy major or anything. You can chop or build sexual organs, you can shave an adam's apple or brow bone, you can take hormones for hair growth. But you can't do anything about hip bones.

/Good for them, btw.

It's not BS.. They're from Oklahoma and have been cited in numerous news articles:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Much_has_changed_in_year_for_ Bi xby_transgender_teen/20120603_11_a1_cutlin564530

http://now.msn.com/katie-hill-and-arin-andrews-are-teen-transgender- co uple

http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/5274-a-teen-love-story-unlike -a ny-other

http://www.medicaldaily.com/articles/13124/20121114/young-couple-fin ds -love-both-undergo-transgender.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/crazy-stupid-love-on-2 02 0-airing-friday-february-15-at-10-pm-on-abc/

(As you can see from the bottom article, this was the couple on 20/20 back in February).


I wasn't saying it was BS. :)
I was meaning that you can tell they are transgender by other things than just hair or face structure.

I've seen them in multiple articles. Again, good for them. <3
 
2013-07-22 11:24:36 AM
Well, that's one way to solve the problem.
 
2013-07-22 11:45:09 AM
Still no cure for women not understanding men and men not understanding women.
 
2013-07-22 11:46:48 AM
And the first time they had sex they discovered that their surgically-cobbled-together genitals,  loose approximations of the real thing freakishly fused together from elbow skin, butt fat and cadaver cartilage, were almost useless for actual intercourse.  And suddenly it wasn't cool anymore.
 
2013-07-22 11:53:11 AM

Nineinchnosehair: I just watched a bit in the past couple of months on 20/20 or some such about a couple just like this here in the US.  Thought it was them.


I saw the same (and cool) story.  This is the same teenage couple.  They really are a cute couple and I wish them the best.  Their parents are awesome too!
 
2013-07-22 11:58:00 AM
I think people have trouble understanding trangender because we think of surgery and it involves so much pain. I know it's a total speculation, but I can't imagine feeling upset enough to undergo surgery, even if I were forced to live my life as a man rather than a woman. In fact, I've felt annoyed by the idea that there are behaviors for men and behaviors for women. Can't I just be a person? That seems to have been the movement for years, but this seems to go against the flow of that.

I think this is what just puzzles people who don't know any transgendered people in life and don't have those feelings either. It's different than the reaction to people who are gay, because, honestly, what is the harm in bumping uglies with a different set of parts? But surgery and hormones and therapy, are, well, frightening and kind of alarming. It's hard to understand feeling the need for that, and thus the mind goes toward those people who want their limbs amputated and munchausen's and the like.

As someone who is not transgendered and has been a bit skeptical, the feeling that there must be some other way comes up. I'll accept that there isn't, but I think there's more going on than petty squeamishness for many people. Maybe it's this kind of reaction that leads people to try to treat cancer with holistic medicine-- the overwhelming feeling that horrible chemicals like chemotherapy couldn't possibly help matters.
 
2013-07-22 12:00:26 PM

mafiageek1980: Tumunga: Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.
[img.poptower.com image 599x381]

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.

Me too. It's a guilty pleasure, but a FUNNY guilty pleasure! I can't get enough of Joan's foul mouth! She's an inspiration to me, lol! I don't see how Irwin puts up with her, lol!

As for the article, i found it suddenly dusty in my cubical. I am a FTM transgender, but I am keeping my parts (and not taking T) until after I have children. I feel very blessed to have a supportive hubby and friends. My family doesn't quite get it, but they aren't dicks about it either.


So you want to be a girl to have babies, then change to a guy?  Interesting.
 
2013-07-22 12:01:56 PM

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: Bullshiat. It's not a "social agenda" to protect any human being from discrimination and stigma from bigoted farks like you who insist that being TG is a "mental illness".

Genetics and epigenetics shape sex and gender. It's a natural process where sometimes the brain structure/patterning doesn't match the chromosomes during in utero development. Show me how therapy can be used to change brain structure. I'll wait.


I think he's referring to the social agenda to normalize it, as it "Hey, you don't like being a girl? You should get a sex change".  I've been seeing a ton of girls who in the past would be considered a tomboy seriously thinking that they need a sex change.  Yes, the psychologist will know they don't, and won't recommend surgery for them, but its reinforcing the idea that, "Don't like your body a little bit? Surgury can fix it!". There needs to be more information out there that this is a drastic permanent change, not something to be done on a whim.  In a way its someone like all the women who get breast enlargements, because the feel they don't like their body, then, boom, they still don't like their body, its an endless cycle. This could be dangerous if it ever becomes "easy" to switch genders. People living their lives back and forth, never comfortable with what they are.
 
2013-07-22 12:07:31 PM
I think we all have to come to terms with who we are.  It's hard enough for most of us, but to have your body not resemble your mental image of yourself in such a HUGE and massive way - It's not quite being a string-bean who wants to be a muscle-man, or a short woman who would like to be a bit taller.

I figure anyone committed enough to go under the knife to fix what they think is wrong probably has thought about it long and hard [no pun intended] before going thru with it.

WRT to the lower surgery question, it's my understanding that it's much more satisfactory to go from M to F and much less so from F to M - it's mechanics, nerve endings, etc.  Which is why you see more 'guys with pies' - or as one guy confided to me "Why keep it?  Multiple Orgasms."
 
2013-07-22 12:12:32 PM
1) Classification as a mental illness is in part artifact of culture and relies on a subject concept of 'normal' - which changes over time.  So it's not useful to discuss the issue in terms of mental illness.  It's easier to focus on whether or not the individual is happy (assuming they're not a danger to themselves or others).

2) Body Identity Disorder (BID)  issues are almost always accompanied by clinical depression, bipolar disorder and other problems - surgery to achieve the desired form does not have any impact on these separate issues(*).

3) Depression may have induced the BID, not the other way around.  This also accounts for brain differences.  These studies are not well publicized as they're not considered politically correct(**).

Summary:  Some percentage, theoretically large, may simply be suffering from depression or related maladies, and using TG as a form of largely ineffective mental self-medication.  Current social climate makes this claim politically incorrect, but failing to diagnose an individual properly and instead, indulging irrational beliefs that do not result in a higher quality of life seems negligent.

* - Studies on depression and other issues are primarily on male-to-female TG's in the US, results from other countries vary wildly, implying that culture plays a larger part in gender roles than biology or individual psychology.  For some reason, few female-to-male TG studies exist?

** - Self-loathing, detachment from self, desiring major life changes are all symptoms of depression.  Belief that one is in the wrong body can be considered a valid cause for these feelings, though item #2 indicates surgical changes don't actually fix things, the depression is still there.
 
2013-07-22 12:20:38 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: The best thing we can hope for, is for transgender to move from mental disorder to simple physical disorder. Something no different than, say, removing an extra finger. If you're happy with the extra finger and it doesn't bother you, huzzah, keep it. If it bugs you, get it removed. Same with sex organs.


I thought I had cartoon dysphoria. I have a thumb and four fingers on my hand. Thanks for your blessing to get my index amputated.
 
2013-07-22 12:21:01 PM

quietwalker: 1) Classification as a mental illness is in part artifact of culture and relies on a subject concept of 'normal' - which changes over time.  So it's not useful to discuss the issue in terms of mental illness.  It's easier to focus on whether or not the individual is happy (assuming they're not a danger to themselves or others).

2) Body Identity Disorder (BID)  issues are almost always accompanied by clinical depression, bipolar disorder and other problems - surgery to achieve the desired form does not have any impact on these separate issues(*).

3) Depression may have induced the BID, not the other way around.  This also accounts for brain differences.  These studies are not well publicized as they're not considered politically correct(**).

Summary:  Some percentage, theoretically large, may simply be suffering from depression or related maladies, and using TG as a form of largely ineffective mental self-medication.  Current social climate makes this claim politically incorrect, but failing to diagnose an individual properly and instead, indulging irrational beliefs that do not result in a higher quality of life seems negligent.

* - Studies on depression and other issues are primarily on male-to-female TG's in the US, results from other countries vary wildly, implying that culture plays a larger part in gender roles than biology or individual psychology.  For some reason, few female-to-male TG studies exist?

** - Self-loathing, detachment from self, desiring major life changes are all symptoms of depression.  Belief that one is in the wrong body can be considered a valid cause for these feelings, though item #2 indicates surgical changes don't actually fix things, the depression is still there.


There's a mantra some of us trans people use, when discussing mental issues and such.

"Sexual Reassignment Surgery fixes exactly one thing, Gender Identity Disorder".  Using it to "fix" any other mental issue won't work.

The WPATH standards of care mandate extensive psychological counseling and testing prior to any medical intervention, for just that reason. You don't get the magic letter to have surgery/hormones, until you can convince an unconnected-with-case PhD. level provider that surgery is the right move.  It's a built-in second opinion from someone who has every reason in the book to say "no".
 
2013-07-22 12:22:07 PM
The real question is "can they do it"? I assume the answer is "kinda".
 
2013-07-22 12:25:41 PM

This text is now purple: Gunther: Anyhow, it's not a big deal for you to refer to people as the gender they identify as rather than as the sex they were born, is it?

Ignacio Gonzalez de Arriba identified himself as the reincarnation of Christ. He got busted in Mexico fairly recently because his followers treated him like he was, and got all cult-y.

Perhaps it's not the best idea to mindlessly indulge someone's delusion of grandeur.


Well, it's good to know you're keeping perspective on this and aren't leaping to ludicrously hyperbolic slippery slope examples.
 
2013-07-22 12:28:22 PM
Any woman that removes (nice looking) boobs for any reason other than life-threatening situations is a criminal in my book.

Keep your fun bags ladies. Without them you are just another douchebag who eats my pizza and drinks my beer while never contributing one cent to this house.
 
2013-07-22 12:46:19 PM

Jument: The real question is "can they do it"? I assume the answer is "kinda".


There's a lot people can read into their relationship...

It's a boy and a girl who met and fell for each other. The rest is just bizarre and convoluted, but as of right now, they're practically heterosexuals. Ironic, right?
 
2013-07-22 12:50:38 PM
Gender-switching has added a whole new dimension to physique criticism.  The latter used to be a simple 1-10 scale but now entire essays can be written about just one body.  It is insufficient to merely judge a person's looks; we must now opine upon his/her motivations, character, mental health, and ask the all-important question, "Who paid how much for that?" even if the person lives in a country that is none of our business.
 
2013-07-22 12:51:24 PM

Qellaqan: I think people have trouble understanding trangender because we think of surgery and it involves so much pain. I know it's a total speculation, but I can't imagine feeling upset enough to undergo surgery, even if I were forced to live my life as a man rather than a woman. In fact, I've felt annoyed by the idea that there are behaviors for men and behaviors for women. Can't I just be a person? That seems to have been the movement for years, but this seems to go against the flow of that.

I think this is what just puzzles people who don't know any transgendered people in life and don't have those feelings either. It's different than the reaction to people who are gay, because, honestly, what is the harm in bumping uglies with a different set of parts? But surgery and hormones and therapy, are, well, frightening and kind of alarming. It's hard to understand feeling the need for that, and thus the mind goes toward those people who want their limbs amputated and munchausen's and the like.

As someone who is not transgendered and has been a bit skeptical, the feeling that there must be some other way comes up. I'll accept that there isn't, but I think there's more going on than petty squeamishness for many people. Maybe it's this kind of reaction that leads people to try to treat cancer with holistic medicine-- the overwhelming feeling that horrible chemicals like chemotherapy couldn't possibly help matters.


Not all trans people need or want surgery and hormones. It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves, under the guidance of a therapist and a doctor. Some states now don't even require surgery as a prerequisite to have gender marker changed on your documentation.
 
2013-07-22 12:57:02 PM

Researcher: Jument: The real question is "can they do it"? I assume the answer is "kinda".

There's a lot people can read into their relationship...

It's a boy and a girl who met and fell for each other. The rest is just bizarre and convoluted, but as of right now, they're practically heterosexuals. Ironic, right?


Well, at least now I know Alanis Morissette's Fark handle.
 
2013-07-22 01:00:26 PM

This text is now purple: Gunther: Anyhow, it's not a big deal for you to refer to people as the gender they identify as rather than as the sex they were born, is it?

Ignacio Gonzalez de Arriba identified himself as the reincarnation of Christ. He got busted in Mexico fairly recently because his followers treated him like he was, and got all cult-y.

Perhaps it's not the best idea to mindlessly indulge someone's delusion of grandeur.


And just look at the thousands of transgender people who have started apocalyptic death cults just because we gave in to their insane demands and said "she" when we wanted to say "he."  Good on you for fighting their tyranny and protecting the Amerijesus way of life. You're a true patriot.
 
2013-07-22 01:13:22 PM

HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.


You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.
 
2013-07-22 01:20:36 PM

12349876: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

You might be confusing sex and gender here.  The way I see it, sex is the body parts.  Gender is self identification based on natural inclinations and cultural expectations for the sexes.  And the vast majority will always be clearly in one camp or the other, and I personally don't care that there are a very small minority existing somewhere in the middle or somewhere beyond the dichotomy.


So all the ladies in the thread are totally cool with me hanging out in women's restrooms, yah?

/Always did say I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
//Where did that carpet square go?
 
2013-07-22 01:24:02 PM

codergirl42: Qellaqan: I think people have trouble understanding trangender because we think of surgery and it involves so much pain. I know it's a total speculation, but I can't imagine feeling upset enough to undergo surgery, even if I were forced to live my life as a man rather than a woman. In fact, I've felt annoyed by the idea that there are behaviors for men and behaviors for women. Can't I just be a person? That seems to have been the movement for years, but this seems to go against the flow of that.

I think this is what just puzzles people who don't know any transgendered people in life and don't have those feelings either. It's different than the reaction to people who are gay, because, honestly, what is the harm in bumping uglies with a different set of parts? But surgery and hormones and therapy, are, well, frightening and kind of alarming. It's hard to understand feeling the need for that, and thus the mind goes toward those people who want their limbs amputated and munchausen's and the like.

As someone who is not transgendered and has been a bit skeptical, the feeling that there must be some other way comes up. I'll accept that there isn't, but I think there's more going on than petty squeamishness for many people. Maybe it's this kind of reaction that leads people to try to treat cancer with holistic medicine-- the overwhelming feeling that horrible chemicals like chemotherapy couldn't possibly help matters.

Not all trans people need or want surgery and hormones. It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves, under the guidance of a therapist and a doctor. Some states now don't even require surgery as a prerequisite to have gender marker changed on your documentation.


I'm all for people living happier lives and I'm happy to hear that. I know I assumed all transgenders (my computer is always correcting this word to transponders, which amuses me because I'm special) has surgery before I read the threads here over the years, so I would guess most people do think that's the way it is.

My post was less meant to say what transgenders do and don't do and more to try to rationally explain why even fairly level-headed tolerant people sometimes find transgendered stuff too extreme. I'll readily admit, as you suggest, that there are plenty of people in less-extreme situations that simply don't get the press.
 
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