If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Sun)   Not News: Cute teen couple pose in their swimwear. FARK: They were both born the opposite sex (w/pics)   (thesun.co.uk) divider line 216
    More: Sappy, Katie Hill, girl called  
•       •       •

31768 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jul 2013 at 5:55 AM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



216 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-07-22 07:50:40 AM
Ahh, it's one of "these" threads again.

Us trans people, we get tons of psychotherapy.  We get more therapy than you can shake a stick at.  WPATH standards of care mandate a ton of psychological work before you can even consider hormonal/surgical intervention.

There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention.  You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting.  Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS!  We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide.  Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.
 
2013-07-22 07:50:48 AM
And of course Lola by The Kinks is on the radio right now........
 
2013-07-22 07:51:13 AM

doofusgumby: ...Welcome to the dustbin of history. Your "mindset" is now one of prejudice and ignorance.
People who feel they are the wrong sex are driven crazy by people like you, usualy in their own family.


Welcome to Fark.   Please don't feed the trolls, as easy as it is from atop that horse.
 
2013-07-22 07:53:46 AM
There was a great short story science fiction...  errrrr....  I can't recall wtf it was but sex changes were a one hour through=patient operation.  Anyway, Dad in the story is the last person to get a sex change after Mom (now dad2) and son (now daughter) and daughter (now son) pressure him into it.  He kills himself the next page.
 
2013-07-22 07:55:37 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Ahh, it's one of "these" threads again.

Us trans people, we get tons of psychotherapy.  We get more therapy than you can shake a stick at.  WPATH standards of care mandate a ton of psychological work before you can even consider hormonal/surgical intervention.

There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention.  You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting.  Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS!  We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide.  Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.


I'm just fine with that.  But now we're seeing people who don't even want it listed as a disorder, they want it listed as just a normal thing.  That's NOT NORMAL.  Normal people do not have suicidal thoughts due to something they were born with.  If I walked into a doctor and said "Hey, my hand makes me want to kill myself, can you cut it off for me?" then the doctor would rightly diagnose me as having a mental disorder.  The treatment may entail removal of my hand if no other option came up, but it is still a disorder.

I'm not suggesting the treatment not be available.  I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.
 
2013-07-22 07:56:53 AM

xellas84: Really?  I'd think that paying attention to physical reality is kind of important.

These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek insisting they're a vulcan and having their ears pointed and refusing to acknowledge that they are human.  If that happened, people around them would rightly say "Hey, no you aren't.  See, your genetics prove it."  Same thing here... they have a mental problem that doesn't line up with physical reality.  Someone should be pointing to these people and saying "No, see, you aren't a woman, you were born with a penis, you need to accept that yes, you ARE a male, and that the part of your brain saying otherwise is not normal and you should ignore it."

As posted elsewhere, we have disorders in the mind that make people insist that they are an amputee and their limbs aren't supposed to be there.  Surgeons won't remove those offending limbs now will they?  This is a form of mental illness.  A mild one to be certain, and these people are no danger to themselves or others.  Hell they have a right to request whatever mods they want to their own bodies, but let's not treat it as anything but a disorder.  Remember, the definition of disorder is "a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions", and having your brain insist that your body is the wrong gender is definitely a disruption in mental health.


Funny, the American Psychological Association no longer thinks that being transgender is a mental disorder.

But I'm sure you know better than the top reigning body of psychology in America.
 
2013-07-22 07:57:49 AM

xellas84: These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek


Isn't it great to wake up on a Monday morning and get to talk down about an entire group of people and talk like you have any idea what you're talking about?

I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.

Empathy isn't your strong suit is it?
 
2013-07-22 07:59:58 AM

FloydA: They are both pretty good looking kids.  Of course, since this story is in the Sun, it's probably completely made up and the two teens are Ukrainians or Bulgarians or something, and the Sun just stole the picture from their Facebook and made up the story to sell papers to their barely literate audience who only buy the paper to look at the tits on Page 3.


Is that wrong?
 
2013-07-22 08:01:20 AM
Good for them.
 
2013-07-22 08:01:49 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention. You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting. Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS! We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide. Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.


Are you still seeing a therapist?
 
2013-07-22 08:03:25 AM

WhyteRaven74: xellas84: These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek

Isn't it great to wake up on a Monday morning and get to talk down about an entire group of people and talk like you have any idea what you're talking about?


I've got an opinion.  This is Fark, where we're allowed to share those.  And it's on topic to the thread being discussed.  And I'm making a valid argument that gender should be limited to only biological gender, since quite frankly that's the only gender that can actually be verified without having someone do massive batteries of subjective testing that give fuzzy answers at best.  I fail to see how I'm talking down to anyone when I say "The guy with an XY chromosome pattern is male, and if he believes he's female that's a disorder".  That seems more a simple statement of fact.

I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.

Empathy isn't your strong suit is it?


Empathy that entails completely ignoring biological fact and inventing entirely new genders to try and explain something that's clearly a disorder?  Yep, I'm clearly very bad at that.
 
2013-07-22 08:03:39 AM

xellas84: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Ahh, it's one of "these" threads again.

Us trans people, we get tons of psychotherapy.  We get more therapy than you can shake a stick at.  WPATH standards of care mandate a ton of psychological work before you can even consider hormonal/surgical intervention.

There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention.  You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting.  Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS!  We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide.  Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.

I'm just fine with that.  But now we're seeing people who don't even want it listed as a disorder, they want it listed as just a normal thing.  That's NOT NORMAL.  Normal people do not have suicidal thoughts due to something they were born with.  If I walked into a doctor and said "Hey, my hand makes me want to kill myself, can you cut it off for me?" then the doctor would rightly diagnose me as having a mental disorder.  The treatment may entail removal of my hand if no other option came up, but it is still a disorder.

I'm not suggesting the treatment not be available.  I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.


I'm actually cool with that.  It *IS* a disorder, and can be pretty damn crippling.  I think the big push is to move it out of the mental disorder camp, and more into the physical disorder area.  There's some medical reasoning behind that, re: brain scans and hormonal balances.

Moving GID from a mental to a physical disorder makes treatment a little easier, when the extremes of medical intervention are needed.  It takes away "Chopping up a body for mental reasons" and replaces it with "resolving a birth defect".

I got a little jumpy, coz the bigot crowd tends to use "it's a mental disorder" as an excuse to not treat GID.
 
2013-07-22 08:07:10 AM

xellas84: 'm just fine with that.  But now we're seeing people who don't even want it listed as a disorder, they want it listed as just a normal thing.  That's NOT NORMAL.  Normal people do not have suicidal thoughts due to something they were born with.  If I walked into a doctor and said "Hey, my hand makes me want to kill myself, can you cut it off for me?" then the doctor would rightly diagnose me as having a mental disorder.  The treatment may entail removal of my hand if no other option came up, but it is still a disorder.

I'm not suggesting the treatment not be available.  I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.


Too late! You lost, it's no longer listed as a disorder.

And yes, it's not normal, from a statistical perspective. But, for that matter, statistically neither is homosexuality, being black, or any other minority grouping you like.

My grandfather was a neuroendocrinologist for decades. During that time, he held several people transition, including one woman transition to a man. He's a renowed scientist in his field. He knows more than most anyone else about neuroendocrinology (the study of hormones in the brain, which is majorly important when it comes to being transgender). He doesn't believe it's a disorder at all, just a fact that some people are born with the wrong gender's hormones and brain patterns. But I guess he doesn't know anything, because you're so damn clear on the issue.

I suggest you have a nice long chat with one of Fark's transpeople. There are already some of them in the thread. Have a chat with them about how they're mentally ill. Tell them they have a disorder and they need to be cured.
 
2013-07-22 08:08:27 AM

xellas84: These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek insisting they're a vulcan and having their ears pointed and refusing to acknowledge that they are human. If that happened, people around them would rightly say "Hey, no you aren't. See, your genetics prove it." Same thing here... they have a mental problem that doesn't line up with physical reality. Someone should be pointing to these people and saying "No, see, you aren't a woman, you were born with a penis, you need to accept that yes, you ARE a male, and that the part of your brain saying otherwise is not normal and you should ignore it."

As posted elsewhere, we have disorders in the mind that make people insist that they are an amputee and their limbs aren't supposed to be there. Surgeons won't remove those offending limbs now will they? This is a form of mental illness. A mild one to be certain, and these people are no danger to themselves or others. Hell they have a right to request whatever mods they want to their own bodies, but let's not treat it as anything but a disorder. Remember, the definition of disorder is "a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions", and having your brain insist that your body is the wrong gender is definitely a disruption in mental health.


The spectrum of mental function is so vast that defining "normal" is extremely subjective.  Left-handedness used to be considered a disorder.  Up until very recently, homosexuality used to be considered a disorder.  Genetics is one big craps shoot.  The dice may be weighted to varying degrees in some cases, but that doesn't mean it's inconceivable for something else to come up.  Sometimes the body builds a rod, but the brain didn't get the message and it wires itself for a slot.  Gender is dictated more by hormones than genetics; hormones that are present in both genders.  The genetics are just there to say "I'd like an extra helping of Testosterone, please".  But sometimes the body just flips them off and spits in their drink.

So, the difference between this and your "Vulcan" example is that the human body carries the hormones necessary to be either gender, so there is really nothing stopping someone from being born one way and feeling like the other.  Conversely, Vulcans are a made-up species.  I agree that "otherkin" are delusional attention-seekers piggybacking on a legitimate mental condition in order to claim some sort of validity.  It is entirely possible for a person to be born the opposite gender.  It is not so much possible for them to be born a wolf.
 
2013-07-22 08:08:57 AM

kwame: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention. You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting. Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS! We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide. Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.

Are you still seeing a therapist?


Yup.  Severe GID tends to bring about other mental problems, and they don't go away just because you start hormones and get your bits fixed.

Thankfully, Veterans Affairs takes GID pretty seriously, and they cover all my therapist needs.
 
2013-07-22 08:09:52 AM

xellas84: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Ahh, it's one of "these" threads again.

Us trans people, we get tons of psychotherapy.  We get more therapy than you can shake a stick at.  WPATH standards of care mandate a ton of psychological work before you can even consider hormonal/surgical intervention.

There are trans people who get by perfectly fine without hormonal and surgical intervention.  You normal folks typically don't hear about them, coz it's not interesting.  Those of us who proceed into medical intervention...it means NOTHING ELSE WORKS!  We've done the therapy, we've done drugs and pills, and we're still on the edge of suicide.  Aligning our body with our minds is the last ditch effort to keep us from offing ourselves.

I'm just fine with that.  But now we're seeing people who don't even want it listed as a disorder, they want it listed as just a normal thing.  That's NOT NORMAL.  Normal people do not have suicidal thoughts due to something they were born with.  If I walked into a doctor and said "Hey, my hand makes me want to kill myself, can you cut it off for me?" then the doctor would rightly diagnose me as having a mental disorder.  The treatment may entail removal of my hand if no other option came up, but it is still a disorder.

I'm not suggesting the treatment not be available.  I'm suggesting it should be, and STAY, a final ditch effort instead of having a social agenda pushed to 'normalize' it, which seems to be happening.




Bullshiat. It's not a "social agenda" to protect any human being from discrimination and stigma from bigoted farks like you who insist that being TG is a "mental illness".

Genetics and epigenetics shape sex and gender. It's a natural process where sometimes the brain structure/patterning doesn't match the chromosomes during in utero development. Show me how therapy can be used to change brain structure. I'll wait.
 
2013-07-22 08:13:43 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I'm actually cool with that. It *IS* a disorder, and can be pretty damn crippling. I think the big push is to move it out of the mental disorder camp, and more into the physical disorder area. There's some medical reasoning behind that, re: brain scans and hormonal balances.

Moving GID from a mental to a physical disorder makes treatment a little easier, when the extremes of medical intervention are needed. It takes away "Chopping up a body for mental reasons" and replaces it with "resolving a birth defect".

I got a little jumpy, coz the bigot crowd tends to use "it's a mental disorder" as an excuse to not treat GID.


I'm 100% cool with people getting treatment in the pattern you described.  I'm also fine with translating it to a physical disorder, so long as there's research backing it that shows that's what it is.  What I'm not fine with is seeing some of the agendas out there that push for us to expand the male/female gender roles to include entirely new genders, which is absurd.  I'm also not fine with people trivializing the surgeries and moving them away from last-ditch treatments, which is what I fear would happen if this was removed from the list of disorders.  A gender reassignment surgery is a MAJOR undertaking and should not be something that's done without solid medical causes, any more than a heart transplant should.

As for those who actually went through it?  No offense, probably wouldn't want to kiss a MtF transgender even post-op, but I'll have a drink with ya no problems, and I hold no ill will towards you.
 
2013-07-22 08:14:26 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Thankfully, Veterans Affairs takes GID pretty seriously, and they cover all my therapist needs.


That's good.  I always wondered about the follow-through after surgery like that.
 
2013-07-22 08:14:36 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: FloydA: They are both pretty good looking kids.  Of course, since this story is in the Sun, it's probably completely made up and the two teens are Ukrainians or Bulgarians or something, and the Sun just stole the picture from their Facebook and made up the story to sell papers to their barely literate audience who only buy the paper to look at the tits on Page 3.

Is that wrong?


Yes. One should never pay for pictures of tits.

HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.


That right there is sometimes part of the problem.
 
2013-07-22 08:15:10 AM

xellas84: "The guy with an XY chromosome pattern is male, and if he believes he's female that's a disorder". That seems more a simple statement of fact.


Funny thing about that, if the Y chromosome doesn't work right or some of the gender differentiation process goes askew, you get someone who is female yet has XY chromosomes. See everyone starts out female, it's not until a gene on the Y chromosome kicks things off you get differentiation. Of course it doesn't always kick off or it does but it doesn't go anywhere or doesn't go as far as it should. It's a condition known as androgen insensitivity syndrome, and it's as far as genetic disorders go, not entirely that rare. Interesting thing is, a great many women who have it have no idea they have it.
 
2013-07-22 08:15:22 AM

xellas84: doofusgumby: xellas84: Rincewind53: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.

I'm still of the mindset that you have 'biological sex' and then 'mental illness'.  Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less.  And if you disagree... well then you be nuts.

Then again, if that's their choice, I suppose they are entitled to it.  I mean, we've got people who choose to get metal shoved through their junk too, it's just yet another expensive body mod.  But I don't legitimize it by saying that it's anything but someone who's mildly crazy getting support from people who should be trying to talk them back into sense.  This is basically like someone saying they're an alchoholic and having their friends and family hand them 40's instead of getting them proper help.

Welcome to the dustbin of history. Your "mindset" is now one of prejudice and ignorance.

People who feel they are the wrong sex are driven crazy by people like you, usualy in their own family.

Really?  I'd think that paying attention to physical reality is kind of important.

These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek insisting they're a vulcan and having their ears pointed and refusing to acknowledge that they are human.  If that happened, people around them would rightly say "Hey, no you aren't.  See, your genetics prove it."  Same thing here... they have a mental problem that doesn't line up with physical reality.  Someone should be pointing to these people and saying "No, see, you aren't a woman, you were born with a penis, you need to accept that yes, you ARE a male, and that the part of your brain saying otherwise is not normal and you should ignore it."

As posted elsewhere, we have disorders in the mind that make people insist that they are an amputee and their limbs aren't supposed to be there.  Surgeons won't remove those offending limbs now will they?  This is a form of mental illness.  A mild one to be certain, and these people are no danger to themselves or others.  Hell they have a right to request whatever mods they want to their own bodies, but let's not treat it as anything but a disorder.  Remember, the definition of disorder is "a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions", and having your brain insist that your body is the wrong gender is definitely a disruption in mental health.


And you've decided this in the basis of exactly what expertise in psychology? Oh wait - none.

I think I'll go with the people who first of all understand the difference between sex and gender and second do actually have degrees and conduct research and so forth who have found biological differences in the brains of trans people and who have determined that transitioning alleviates much of the distress trans people experience. Of course they still have to deal with a shiat ton of bigotry and ignorance.
 
2013-07-22 08:19:22 AM

skatedrifter: I would love to be the meat in that sandwich.


I think it got tossed.
 
2013-07-22 08:20:06 AM

kwame: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Thankfully, Veterans Affairs takes GID pretty seriously, and they cover all my therapist needs.

That's good.  I always wondered about the follow-through after surgery like that.


It depends on the team, but typically, trans people get watched VERY closely post-transition.  Lots of trans folks have the idea that the world will change and everything will be perfect after they have the final surgeries, and....that just doesn't happen.  Every trans person I know, post-surgery, continued with therapy.
 
2013-07-22 08:23:01 AM

angrycrank: And you've decided this in the basis of exactly what expertise in psychology? Oh wait - none.

I think I'll go with the people who first of all understand the difference between sex and gender and second do actually have degrees and conduct research and so forth who have found biological differences in the brains of trans people and who have determined that transitioning alleviates much of the distress trans people experience. Of course they still have to deal with a shiat ton of bigotry and ignorance.


First off, as you'll note, I've not claimed to be a psychiatrist.  I even openly stated it's my opinions.  As for where I got that, there was a link earlier in the thread that I was referencing.

Second, if you'll notice my previous posts, which I note you are ignoring and refusing to reply to, I've stated I have no issues with treatments as they stand.  Surgery is a valid option, so long as it's actually vetted with proper psychiatric treatment first.  What I don't agree with is that this is NORMAL.  It's a disorder, a treatable one and certainly one that shouldn't be ignored, but it's a disorder nonetheless.  And surgery shouldn't be front-line treatment for this, as IsThatYourFinalAnswer said, there are transgenders who can be treated with medication and no surgery and live happy lives.  That's better than surgery and should be done first, any other opinion is insanity as sex change surgeries are major undertakings from my (admittedly limited) understanding.

The problem is once we stop treating it as a 'disorder' and simply as a 'difference' then you get problems.  Vetting standards slip, doctors don't consider other options, people push for surgery FIRST and other options second.  That's what I don't want to see.  You'll note that nowhere in this thread have I suggested these people be DENIED treatment.
 
2013-07-22 08:23:26 AM

thamike: Luke's got birthin' hips.


Yup.
 
2013-07-22 08:24:40 AM

Rincewind53: Good for them. They're an adorable couple.
Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.

img.poptower.com

This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

/I like this show.
 
2013-07-22 08:25:55 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: kwame: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Thankfully, Veterans Affairs takes GID pretty seriously, and they cover all my therapist needs.

That's good.  I always wondered about the follow-through after surgery like that.

It depends on the team, but typically, trans people get watched VERY closely post-transition.  Lots of trans folks have the idea that the world will change and everything will be perfect after they have the final surgeries, and....that just doesn't happen.  Every trans person I know, post-surgery, continued with therapy.


Here's to you hopefully having a higher quality of life after your surgery.  I'm glad you treated the decision with appropriate weight, and I hope the treatment helps you as much as you hoped for.  I really don't want to come across as having any actual ill-will towards you or any other transgendered person.

Also, it's good to hear that it's common to have post-op therapy, I'd wondered about that myself too.
 
2013-07-22 08:26:41 AM

xellas84: angrycrank: And you've decided this in the basis of exactly what expertise in psychology? Oh wait - none.

I think I'll go with the people who first of all understand the difference between sex and gender and second do actually have degrees and conduct research and so forth who have found biological differences in the brains of trans people and who have determined that transitioning alleviates much of the distress trans people experience. Of course they still have to deal with a shiat ton of bigotry and ignorance.

First off, as you'll note, I've not claimed to be a psychiatrist.  I even openly stated it's my opinions.  As for where I got that, there was a link earlier in the thread that I was referencing.

Second, if you'll notice my previous posts, which I note you are ignoring and refusing to reply to, I've stated I have no issues with treatments as they stand.  Surgery is a valid option, so long as it's actually vetted with proper psychiatric treatment first.  What I don't agree with is that this is NORMAL.  It's a disorder, a treatable one and certainly one that shouldn't be ignored, but it's a disorder nonetheless.  And surgery shouldn't be front-line treatment for this, as IsThatYourFinalAnswer said, there are transgenders who can be treated with medication and no surgery and live happy lives.  That's better than surgery and should be done first, any other opinion is insanity as sex change surgeries are major undertakings from my (admittedly limited) understanding.

The problem is once we stop treating it as a 'disorder' and simply as a 'difference' then you get problems.  Vetting standards slip, doctors don't consider other options, people push for surgery FIRST and other options second.  That's what I don't want to see.  You'll note that nowhere in this thread have I suggested these people be DENIED treatment.


You have no idea what you're talking about. Face it. Multiple people have told you that there is  hard scientific evidence that it's an innate feature that you're born with.

Your "normal" is a ridiculous creation of your imagination. No one is normal.
 
2013-07-22 08:29:17 AM

Rincewind53: You have no idea what you're talking about. Face it. Multiple people have told you that there is hard scientific evidence that it's an innate feature that you're born with.

Your "normal" is a ridiculous creation of your imagination. No one is normal.


He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surgery. It's a valid question.
 
2013-07-22 08:33:24 AM

Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger


See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.
 
2013-07-22 08:33:44 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Severe GID tends to bring about other mental problems


Causal, or co-morbid?
 
2013-07-22 08:34:58 AM

Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man?  Unlikely.


I see lines of hair on gay people all the time. Explain that one, smarty.
 
2013-07-22 08:35:36 AM
Tumunga:  This one has a mail-order pecker she glues to herself.

Now THAT picture is disturbing and disgusting.
Tobacco addicts should be treated with psychotherapy, not enabled with cancer sticks.
So gross, look what it does to the skin.
 
2013-07-22 08:36:20 AM
Jesus eff christ there's too much derp in this thread for me to deal with this morning

...I'm heading over the entertainment tab
 
2013-07-22 08:37:38 AM

Matthew Keene: Yeah, I guess it's a real drag living in the wrong body. I'm 58, balding, slightly overweight. I wonder if they can help me. This is what I want to look like.

[i14.photobucket.com image 338x600]


They could pull it off, only if you want your pecker clipped.
 
2013-07-22 08:38:35 AM
xellas84:Here's to you hopefully having a higher quality of life after your surgery.  I'm glad you treated the decision with appropriate weight, and I hope the treatment helps you as much as you hoped for.  I really don't want to come across as having any actual ill-will towards you or any other transgendered person.

Also, it's good to hear that it's common to have post-op therapy, I'd wondered about that myself too.


I'm honestly not picking up any ill-will from you.  There's some "hard truth" in what you say, and honestly, hard truth is something the trans community as a whole has some issues with.

By medical and scientific definitions, we are not "normal" people.  Trans people who are having difficulty resolving the brain/body disagreement (that's what the new DSM covers), are not "normal", when compared to a bog standard healthy person.  It's neither a good, nor bad thing....it just is.

Thankfully, we have a treatment regimen that can help trans people.  It's not the best, but, it works for the most part. There's actually been examples of people who intentionally evade the standards of care, who end up with huge regrets (folks who go overseas for surgery, to evade the psychotherapy requirements of WPATH).

The best thing we can hope for, is for transgender to move from mental disorder to simple physical disorder.  Something no different than, say, removing an extra finger.  If you're happy with the extra finger and it doesn't bother you, huzzah, keep it.  If it bugs you, get it removed.  Same with sex organs.
 
2013-07-22 08:39:43 AM

octopied: FloydA: They are both pretty good looking kids.  Of course, since this story is in the Sun, it's probably completely made up and the two teens are Ukrainians or Bulgarians or something, and the Sun just stole the picture from their Facebook and made up the story to sell papers to their barely literate audience who only buy the paper to look at the tits on Page 3.

But other than that, it's a nice story.

This story has been around before, in slightly different form.

How did the breast removal surgery work, though? Pretty impressive that he has no scars. Hmmm. *Becomes dubious*


Rattle snake venom, and a liposuction kit.
 
2013-07-22 08:40:03 AM

Rincewind53: Your "normal" is a ridiculous creation of your imagination. No one is normal.


Do you know what a norm is?

norm (nôrm)n. A standard, model, or pattern regarded as typical: the current middle-class norm of two children per family.
nor•mal (nôrˈməl)adj. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.
Technically, most people are normal.  That's what it means.
 
2013-07-22 08:40:29 AM

WhyteRaven74: Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger

See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.


Actually a few google searches show the DSM-5, still the current standard for the APA, shows gender dysphoria (the new title for GID) as a disorder.  Clearly it's not a universal consent like you are representing it to be, otherwise it would have been declassified entirely as of the DSM-5 instead of updated with a new name and left on the list of disorders as of may 2013.

I wonder if you know quite as much as you claim to know, seeing as you are making some fairly incorrect statements yourself.
 
2013-07-22 08:41:53 AM

sendtodave: Rincewind53: Your "normal" is a ridiculous creation of your imagination. No one is normal.

Do you know what a norm is?

norm (nôrm)n. A standard, model, or pattern regarded as typical: the current middle-class norm of two children per family.
nor•mal (nôrˈməl)adj. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.
Technically, most people are normal.  That's what it means.


By your definition, every person has aspects of them that are normal, and every person has aspects of them that are abnormal. Fixating on a single one of them and declaring that a person is "abnormal" as a result is absurd.
 
2013-07-22 08:41:55 AM
I guess this just goes to show that what most children need to look good is lots of surgery and tons of hormones.

/wish I'd known when I was a kid.
 
2013-07-22 08:46:47 AM

Rincewind53: He doesn't believe it's a disorder at all, just a fact that some people are born with the wrong gender's hormones and brain patterns.


Isn't that just about the definition of a disorder?
 
2013-07-22 08:47:24 AM

sendtodave: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Severe GID tends to bring about other mental problems

Causal, or co-morbid?


Difficult to say, and not much research done into the area yet.

It's been found that resolving the gender dis-congruity doesn't resolve the associated mental disorders, so the lean is towards co-morbid.

GID seems to be a focal trigger/trauma point, that causes other mental issues to be more severe than usual.  What could have been simple seasonal depression gets amplified into MDD, from having to deal with GID issues and problems.
 
2013-07-22 08:47:56 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: xellas84:Here's to you hopefully having a higher quality of life after your surgery.  I'm glad you treated the decision with appropriate weight, and I hope the treatment helps you as much as you hoped for.  I really don't want to come across as having any actual ill-will towards you or any other transgendered person.

Also, it's good to hear that it's common to have post-op therapy, I'd wondered about that myself too.

I'm honestly not picking up any ill-will from you.  There's some "hard truth" in what you say, and honestly, hard truth is something the trans community as a whole has some issues with.

By medical and scientific definitions, we are not "normal" people.  Trans people who are having difficulty resolving the brain/body disagreement (that's what the new DSM covers), are not "normal", when compared to a bog standard healthy person.  It's neither a good, nor bad thing....it just is.

Thankfully, we have a treatment regimen that can help trans people.  It's not the best, but, it works for the most part. There's actually been examples of people who intentionally evade the standards of care, who end up with huge regrets (folks who go overseas for surgery, to evade the psychotherapy requirements of WPATH).

The best thing we can hope for, is for transgender to move from mental disorder to simple physical disorder.  Something no different than, say, removing an extra finger.  If you're happy with the extra finger and it doesn't bother you, huzzah, keep it.  If it bugs you, get it removed.  Same with sex organs.


Honestly, I'd hope the psychotherapy requirements stay pretty firm.  Like you said earlier (and I'm assuming you know a LOT more than me), there's people who can be treated without the surgery.  Surgery of ANY sort should stay firmly behind medication as a treatment option in any scenario really, especially large-scale surgeries like gender reassignment.  But like you said, if the science says it's a physical problem, list it that way and treat appropriately.  I just don't want this to become a new cultural segment where people start trying to make it not a disorder but a choice, because down that path lies madness.

Admittedly, I'm probably wrong on some of this stuff, I'm no medical professional (just related to a few).  As someone who has the condition yourself, do you think I'm being unreasonable in what I'm saying?  I do try to actually have an open mind and would gladly discuss and debate, especially something where I'm admittedly short on facts.
 
2013-07-22 08:54:05 AM

xellas84: WhyteRaven74: Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger

See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.

Actually a few google searches show the DSM-5, still the current standard for the APA, shows gender dysphoria (the new title for GID) as a disorder.  Clearly it's not a universal consent like you are representing it to be, otherwise it would have been declassified entirely as of the DSM-5 instead of updated with a new name and left on the list of disorders as of may 2013.

I wonder if you know quite as much as you claim to know, seeing as you are making some fairly incorrect statements yourself.


Ohh, I *knew* you were going to mention this, everyone does when DSM gets tossed into the mix.  I'll give the brief run-down for you.

GID in and of itself has been declassified.  Having issues with GID is still classified as a disorder.  See my finger example above.  If you were born with six fingers on one hand, and are totally happy with it, you don't have a disorder.  If having six fingers makes you upset, then the being upset part is the disorder.

Part of that is because, if we totally declassified GID as a disorder, it'd be damn near impossible to get treatment for it. Doing it this way lets us keep an ICD code for people who have a problem, while declassifying gender identity in and of itself.
 
2013-07-22 08:57:43 AM

Ed Grubermann: Matthew Keene: Yeah, I guess it's a real drag living in the wrong body. I'm 58, balding, slightly overweight. I wonder if they can help me. This is what I want to look like.

[i14.photobucket.com image 338x600]

I'm sure QA can help you out.


I wish. Then I could watch as you refuse to use anti-aging technology, right?
 
2013-07-22 09:03:21 AM
Kind of cruel irony that, if a teen decides he/she is transgendered, it's the absolute BEST and WORST time to make that decision. Worst in that trying to make any life and body changing decisions when one is only just figuring out his/her sexual identity is a terrible idea; and best that, if one wants to change sex, it's more effective before puberty completely sets in.

As for me, I've had a hard time understanding gender identity, because I feel that if I woke up the next day as the other sex, I'd be cool with it, and I'd learn to get along and identify as a chick. Just call me Lord/Lady Orlando. :)
 
2013-07-22 09:03:30 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: hh, I *knew* you were going to mention this, everyone does when DSM gets tossed into the mix. I'll give the brief run-down for you.

GID in and of itself has been declassified. Having issues with GID is still classified as a disorder. See my finger example above. If you were born with six fingers on one hand, and are totally happy with it, you don't have a disorder. If having six fingers makes you upset, then the being upset part is the disorder.

Part of that is because, if we totally declassified GID as a disorder, it'd be damn near impossible to get treatment for it. Doing it this way lets us keep an ICD code for people who have a problem, while declassifying gender identity in and of itself.


Isn't that how most (all?) disorders work?

They aren't disorders unless they negatively impact your life?
 
2013-07-22 09:03:52 AM
Can't we get more photos that make the penis confused and angry?
 
2013-07-22 09:08:41 AM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: xellas84: WhyteRaven74: Whiskey Pete: He's just wondering why this particular mental illness is treated with drastic surger

See the people who actually determine what is and isn't a mental illness have realized that as there are definite physical differences at play here, things like brain structure, that it's not a mental illness. Indeed they never really thought it was, just now they can say it's not just something in someone's head, ironically because it's what in the grey matter in their head.

Actually a few google searches show the DSM-5, still the current standard for the APA, shows gender dysphoria (the new title for GID) as a disorder.  Clearly it's not a universal consent like you are representing it to be, otherwise it would have been declassified entirely as of the DSM-5 instead of updated with a new name and left on the list of disorders as of may 2013.

I wonder if you know quite as much as you claim to know, seeing as you are making some fairly incorrect statements yourself.

Ohh, I *knew* you were going to mention this, everyone does when DSM gets tossed into the mix.  I'll give the brief run-down for you.

GID in and of itself has been declassified.  Having issues with GID is still classified as a disorder.  See my finger example above.  If you were born with six fingers on one hand, and are totally happy with it, you don't have a disorder.  If having six fingers makes you upset, then the being upset part is the disorder.

Part of that is because, if we totally declassified GID as a disorder, it'd be damn near impossible to get treatment for it. Doing it this way lets us keep an ICD code for people who have a problem, while declassifying gender identity in and of itself.


See, I honestly would like to see citation on this.  I'm honestly NOT being a dick about that, because I can't find any lists of changes, either from the DSM-5's website or from other searches, that show any changes other than changing the NAME of the disorder from GID to Gender Dysphoria and adding a childhood diagnosis for it that allows for different psychiatric evaluations.  In fact, the only thing I can find is that it was changed not because GID was declassified, but because the name was considered stigmatizing.  The fact that it's still listed as a disorder seem to me to state that the APA, and by extension at least a good portion of the psychiatric world, still considers it a form of disorder.

Please, if I'm missing something here link me, cause I'm getting a bit confused.
 
Displayed 50 of 216 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report