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(ACLU)   Dear Eric Holder; Your attempts at a federal case against George Zimmerman violates the double-jeopardy clause in the constitution and we will defend him if necessary. Sincerely - The ACLU   (aclu.org) divider line 549
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15981 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Jul 2013 at 12:34 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-21 05:29:18 PM

youncasqua: We may permissibly infer

...

I think you are at least deserving of some kudos for your persistence in continuing with this line of reasoning thread after thread, given how spectacularly wrong it is.

You don't get to infer, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
2013-07-21 05:30:45 PM

OgreMagi: Zimmerman shot Martin while Martin was straddling him on the ground and punching the shiat out of him and slamming his head into the concrete (the forensics back this up). That is not a stand your ground situation. That pure self defense.


Unless Zimmerman started the fight by grabbing Trayvon to keep him from being another "asshole" to get away--which is probably what really happened.

In that case, Trayvon was attacked by a lethally armed adult aggressor. Zimmerman's possession of a firearm gave Trayvon the moral and legal right to use any and all force, including lethal force, to protect his life. And to seek to disarm the man.

Zimmerman's injuries were inflicted by a panicking boy fighting for his life against a man with a gun.
 
2013-07-21 05:32:46 PM

Doom MD: Here is your outrage

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/07/tim-mcnabb/black-man-shoots- w hite-teen-jury-says-self-defense-and-nobody-cares/


Oh look, conservatives are outraged that a black man shot a white teen, who actually had a record, and was high on pot and meth  and drunk at his time of death, who was seen actually committing crimes, on his own property.

This is my shocked face. Really, I'm speechless.
 
2013-07-21 05:33:14 PM

Popcorn Johnny: tirob: The facts of the two cases are completely different.  The precedent of a federal prosecution for civil rights violations (prospective in Zimmerman's case) after a state court acquittal on murder charges is the same.

It's nowhere close to the same. Those juries and trials were obviously tainted by racism, there's no evidence of that in the Zim proceedings and verdict.


However true that may be, it is irrelevant for the purposes of my point.  Did you actually read what I wrote?
 
2013-07-21 05:33:59 PM

that bosnian sniper: Oh look, conservatives are outraged that a black man shot a white teen, who actually had a record, and was high on pot and meth  and drunk at his time of death, who was seen actually committing crimes, on his own property.  And, was acquitted in a state with a much more rigorous standard of self-defense than Florida.

This is my shocked face. Really, I'm speechless.


Whoops, missed a bit. Fixed that right up for myself. I guess I was so shocked and outraged I missed that bit.
 
2013-07-21 05:35:37 PM

OgreMagi: Autistic Hiker: That black parents all over country are terrified that their teenage son could be the next Trayvon Martin?

They should be more terrified of their black children being killed by other blacks.  94% of murdered blacks are killed by blacks.


For a very graphic demonstration of that principle, see Hood Life 3: The Documentary Continues (VERY NSFW)*, which was filmed in West Palm Beach, Fl and Belle Glades, Fl.

*I am not responsible for loss of sleep due to viewing this documentary
 
2013-07-21 05:35:44 PM

youncasqua: Unless Zimmerman started the fight by grabbing Trayvon to keep him from being another "asshole" to get away--which is probably what really happened.

In that case, Trayvon was attacked by a lethally armed adult aggressor. Zimmerman's possession of a firearm gave Trayvon the moral and legal right to use any and all force, including lethal force, to protect his life. And to seek to disarm the man.

Zimmerman's injuries were inflicted by a panicking boy fighting for his life against a man with a gun.


How did Trayvon end up back at the T intersection in a fight with Zimmerman? Since you're so good at figuring out what happened, I'm sure you know that as well.
 
2013-07-21 05:36:42 PM

Popcorn Johnny: youncasqua: Pardon me. I thought you referred to the publicity seeking juror's statements. But if you're referring to Jeantel's statements, they have roughly the same probative value as Zimmerman's. They should be treated similarly, which means accorded no weight.

I'll agree that her testimony shouldn't be given any weight, I've felt that way all along. As for Zim's statements, considering they're backed up with evidence, they have to be considered. Could he be lying about some of the details? Sure he could, but considering the evidence, we know he's telling the truth about much of what occurred.


First off, very little of what Zimmerman said corroborates with the evidence.

Second off, the lies you suggest he told give enough basis to convict, because they show his own belief that the true facts of the case incriminate him.

Third off, the issue now really is less whether there is enough evidence to convict Zimmerman--there is, it just wasn't presented in a persuasive way--the issue is whether there is enough to convict Trayvon.

A rational person may permissibly find the state failed to meet its burden of proof to convict Zimmerman. No rational person can simultaneously acquit Zimmerman, and convict Trayvon. The case that Trayvon was the aggressor is thin thin thin.
 
2013-07-21 05:37:46 PM

that bosnian sniper: Doom MD: Here is your outrage

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/07/tim-mcnabb/black-man-shoots- w hite-teen-jury-says-self-defense-and-nobody-cares/

Oh look, conservatives are outraged that a black man shot a white teen, who actually had a record, and was high on pot and meth  and drunk at his time of death, who was seen actually committing crimes, on his own property.

This is my shocked face. Really, I'm speechless.


They're not outraged. Read the comments section, they're applauding the guy for defending himself.
 
2013-07-21 05:38:29 PM

Elegy: OgreMagi: Autistic Hiker: That black parents all over country are terrified that their teenage son could be the next Trayvon Martin?

They should be more terrified of their black children being killed by other blacks.  94% of murdered blacks are killed by blacks.

For a very graphic demonstration of that principle, see Hood Life 3: The Documentary Continues (VERY NSFW)*, which was filmed in West Palm Beach, Fl and Belle Glades, Fl.

*I am not responsible for loss of sleep due to viewing this documentary


I think I'll take your word for that and skip the video.  I don't like watching snuff films.
 
2013-07-21 05:40:21 PM

Popcorn Johnny: youncasqua: Unless Zimmerman started the fight by grabbing Trayvon to keep him from being another "asshole" to get away--which is probably what really happened.

In that case, Trayvon was attacked by a lethally armed adult aggressor. Zimmerman's possession of a firearm gave Trayvon the moral and legal right to use any and all force, including lethal force, to protect his life. And to seek to disarm the man.

Zimmerman's injuries were inflicted by a panicking boy fighting for his life against a man with a gun.

How did Trayvon end up back at the T intersection in a fight with Zimmerman? Since you're so good at figuring out what happened, I'm sure you know that as well.


I'm not reading all your derp in this thread, but do you ever go outside? You're consistently in these threads, why are you so obsessed?

I mean... Tatsuma at least has a dog in his fight.
 
2013-07-21 05:44:29 PM

Popcorn Johnny: youncasqua: Unless Zimmerman started the fight by grabbing Trayvon to keep him from being another "asshole" to get away--which is probably what really happened.

In that case, Trayvon was attacked by a lethally armed adult aggressor. Zimmerman's possession of a firearm gave Trayvon the moral and legal right to use any and all force, including lethal force, to protect his life. And to seek to disarm the man.

Zimmerman's injuries were inflicted by a panicking boy fighting for his life against a man with a gun.

How did Trayvon end up back at the T intersection in a fight with Zimmerman? Since you're so good at figuring out what happened, I'm sure you know that as well.


He either lingered in the area, or went home and came back. But Trayvon's mere presence in the area proves only as much as does Zimmerman's. Trayvon may have:

1) lingered in the area because, if we believe Zimmerman's revised Hannity account, he felt he had nothing to fear, was enjoying the rain and the evening, and was in no hurry to get home. So he paused to talk on the phone for a few minutes.

2) lingered in the area because he didn't want to lead the dangerous stalker back to his home to endanger his family.

3) lingered in the area because he wanted to observe the suspicious character stalking him through his own neighborhood.

4) gotten home and come back out for the same reason.

The case that Trayvon started the fight relies on:

1) Statements from history's least credible witnesses,

2) Trayvon's mere presence in the area--while overlooking Zimmerman's presence in the area,

3) Zimmerman's injuries, which may have been inflicted by a panicking boy fighting for his life against a lethally armed adult aggressor,

4) Trayon's lack of injuries, which indicate no more than that Trayvon got the better of the fight, because Zimmerman may have--and probably did--start the fight by grappling the boy to keep him from being another "asshole" to get away.
 
2013-07-21 05:45:48 PM

youncasqua: First off, very little of what Zimmerman said corroborates with the evidence.

Second off, the lies you suggest he told give enough basis to convict, because they show his own belief that the true facts of the case incriminate him.

Third off, the issue now really is less whether there is enough evidence to convict Zimmerman--there is, it just wasn't presented in a persuasive way--the issue is whether there is enough to convict Trayvon.

A rational person may permissibly find the state failed to meet its burden of proof to convict Zimmerman. No rational person can simultaneously acquit Zimmerman, and convict Trayvon. The case that Trayvon was the aggressor is thin thin thin.


First off, everything he said matches the available evidence.

Secondly what Team Trayvon considers lies are minor changes, mostly in particular words used when retelling his story four different times.

Thirdly, there wasn't one piece of evidence to convict him. An eyewitness places Trayvon on top of Zimmerman and there was no evidence that Zim initiated the physical exchange. There is no evidence that this was anything other than self defense, no matter how much you like to claim there is.

Feel free to give specific details of the evidence that Zim committed a crime.
 
2013-07-21 05:46:00 PM

The Numbers: coyo: The Numbers: coyo: Popcorn Johnny: coyo: Obama was a fool for thinking his opponents had any shred of human decency or honor, that's for sure.

Obama's supporters were a fool for thinking he was different from any other politician.

What evidence do you have that they thought that? It's an interesting myth you buy in to, that he was 'worshipped'.

Pretty much every serious politician ever has had their 'worshippers' - those that believe they can do no wrong and will twist reality to maintain that view. It's pretty standard human behavior. Why would Obama be different? Methinks you're a touch too sensitive on this issue.

/He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

The only people I've ever heard refer to him as 'the messiah' are Republicans.

People in cults are always the least likely to refer to themselves as being part of a cult. Doesn't mean they aren't.in a cult. Same applies here.

As for being 'naughty', and a 'boy', he's the most adult politician in the room.

Did you not get the reference?


Now I do. That was embarrassing. It's just that I'm not an individual
 
2013-07-21 05:46:34 PM

OgreMagi: Elegy: OgreMagi: Autistic Hiker: That black parents all over country are terrified that their teenage son could be the next Trayvon Martin?

They should be more terrified of their black children being killed by other blacks.  94% of murdered blacks are killed by blacks.

For a very graphic demonstration of that principle, see Hood Life 3: The Documentary Continues (VERY NSFW)*, which was filmed in West Palm Beach, Fl and Belle Glades, Fl.

*I am not responsible for loss of sleep due to viewing this documentary

I think I'll take your word for that and skip the video.  I don't like watching snuff films.


Nobody dies, no graphic shootings. The worst part is a kid rather viciously getting his arm broken by a guy in a fight, which was something I had to fast forward through myself; it was pretty brutal and I'm squeamish when it comes to gore.

Lots of fights though, so there is a high level of violence.
 
2013-07-21 05:47:10 PM

Autistic Hiker: Popcorn Johnny: coyo: Zimmerman was acting foolishly and caused someone's death.

Zimmerman was reporting a suspicious person black teenager in a hoodieto the police and attempting to provide that persons location. What a moron, right?


Are you seriously trying to suggest that Zimmerman knew what he was doing when he profiled Martin as a criminal threat?   You do understand that is this the heart of the matter, right?  That black parents all over country are terrified that their teenage son could be the next Trayvon Martin?

Whatever else might be said about George Zimmerman, there is no debating that he was acting like a moron that night.


As much as I hate to do so, now that I have seen and heard the evidence (that which was given in court and that which was made public outside the courtroom), I now believe that Zimmerman may have had adequate reason to report Martin to the police as a suspicious person.  In going over the shooting scene in the days just after Martin's death, police found what I saw described as either a jimmy or a burglar's tool in the bushes nearby.  I believe that Chris Serino made tangential mention of this in court.  If this tool was Martin's--and it may have been, given the time and place where it was found--it would explain to me several things about Martin's behavior that night--why he walked over to Zimmerman's SUV to check Zimmerman out, why Zimmerman reported that Martin reached into his waist, and why Martin took off running for no explicable reason.  If Martin thought that Zimmerman was either a cop or that Zimmerman was calling the cops, he would have wanted to get the hell out of there and ditch his tool instanter, as he would have faced certain arrest and possible jail time if a cop had found it on him.  Martin had already been caught with a screwdriver (and some jewelry whose provenance was suspect) at school.
 
2013-07-21 05:48:07 PM

OgreMagi: coyo: OgreMagi: The Lone Gunman: cman: Gotta give it to the ACLU

They are principled people who put their personal opinions below what is right

Seriously, the trial is over.  And I'm sure that there will be a civil trial, but the DOJ needs to step away from this.

Besides, jailing Zimmerman at this point will accomplish nothing.  If they really want justice for Trayvon, they need to get rid of "Stand Your Ground", because cops have a tough enough time without prospective serial killers posing as "protectors of the community".

Stand Your Ground had nothing to do with the case.  The defense didn't even bring it up in the trial.

Was the jury not told that as long as Zimmerman felt that his life was threatened at any time during the incident that he would nit have been found guilty?

This has echos of bernard Goetz, but even Goetz wasn't looking for trouble.

Zimmerman was acting foolishly and caused someone's death. He will have to live with that for the rest of his life. I am sure there are those hear who cheer and revel Martin's death, but, well, there are no monsters like people can be.

Zimmerman shot Martin while Martin was straddling him on the ground and punching the shiat out of him and slamming his head into the concrete (the forensics back this up).  That is not a stand your ground situation.  That pure self defense.


You can argue then, that they were both acting in self defense, duh!
 
2013-07-21 05:48:17 PM

Doom MD: that bosnian sniper: Doom MD: Here is your outrage

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/07/tim-mcnabb/black-man-shoots- w hite-teen-jury-says-self-defense-and-nobody-cares/

Oh look, conservatives are outraged that a black man shot a white teen, who actually had a record, and was high on pot and meth  and drunk at his time of death, who was seen actually committing crimes, on his own property.

This is my shocked face. Really, I'm speechless.

They're not outraged. Read the comments section, they're applauding the guy for defending himself.


This is what people don't seem to get - the foundation for supporting Zimmerman is based on self-defense, not race.

Same goes for Roderick Scott.
 
2013-07-21 05:52:11 PM

Elegy: Doom MD: that bosnian sniper: Doom MD: Here is your outrage

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/07/tim-mcnabb/black-man-shoots- w hite-teen-jury-says-self-defense-and-nobody-cares/

Oh look, conservatives are outraged that a black man shot a white teen, who actually had a record, and was high on pot and meth  and drunk at his time of death, who was seen actually committing crimes, on his own property.

This is my shocked face. Really, I'm speechless.

They're not outraged. Read the comments section, they're applauding the guy for defending himself.

This is what people don't seem to get - the foundation for supporting Zimmerman is based on self-defense, not race.

Same goes for Roderick Scott.


Common sense would indicate they were both fighting for their lives. If Zimmerman had been the one killed, would Martin deserve the same verdict?
 
2013-07-21 05:52:36 PM

tirob: dittybopper: tirob: The judge included it in her charge to the jury.

Because it was part of the standard jury instructions for self-defense cases.

Is there any record of whether the prosecution moved to have this part of the charge struck because they believed it to be inapplicable to the case?    ;-)


It's legal boilerplate.  If the judge struck it out of the jury instructions, that would be automatic grounds for appeal by the defense simply because the jury wasn't fully informed of Zimmerman's rights under state law.
 
2013-07-21 05:53:09 PM

Elegy: the foundation for supporting Zimmerman is based on self-defense, not race.


It doesn't help that argument when a lot of the comments that have been made have not been on self-defense, but have been racial in nature, and highly inflammatory at that.

What people SHOULD be pointing out is that there are no heroes in this. At all.
 
2013-07-21 05:55:08 PM

youncasqua: lingered in the area because he didn't want to lead the dangerous stalker back to his home to endanger his family.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yes, a terrified for his life kid is going to be thinking like a master spy. Of all the ridiculous Team Trayvon talking points, this is the most hilarious. Lets also remember that he never called 911, ran through the neighborhood screaming for help or pounded on doors looking for somebody to save him.

One thing that's certain from what we know, Trayvon was not afraid that night.
 
2013-07-21 05:56:09 PM

coyo: OgreMagi: coyo: OgreMagi: The Lone Gunman: cman: Gotta give it to the ACLU

They are principled people who put their personal opinions below what is right

Seriously, the trial is over.  And I'm sure that there will be a civil trial, but the DOJ needs to step away from this.

Besides, jailing Zimmerman at this point will accomplish nothing.  If they really want justice for Trayvon, they need to get rid of "Stand Your Ground", because cops have a tough enough time without prospective serial killers posing as "protectors of the community".

Stand Your Ground had nothing to do with the case.  The defense didn't even bring it up in the trial.

Was the jury not told that as long as Zimmerman felt that his life was threatened at any time during the incident that he would nit have been found guilty?

This has echos of bernard Goetz, but even Goetz wasn't looking for trouble.

Zimmerman was acting foolishly and caused someone's death. He will have to live with that for the rest of his life. I am sure there are those hear who cheer and revel Martin's death, but, well, there are no monsters like people can be.

Zimmerman shot Martin while Martin was straddling him on the ground and punching the shiat out of him and slamming his head into the concrete (the forensics back this up).  That is not a stand your ground situation.  That pure self defense.

You can argue then, that they were both acting in self defense, duh!


Nope.  If Martin started the fight (which the evidence all suggests), he would not have been able to invoke self defense.  All the evidence pointed to Martin starting the fight, so Zimmerman was justified in acting in self defense.

An important point you may have missed.  Zimmerman was walking BACK to his truck.  He was no longer following Martin.
 
2013-07-21 05:57:40 PM

youncasqua: Zimmerman's possession of a firearm gave Trayvon the moral and legal right to use any and all force, including lethal force, to protect his life. And to seek to disarm the man.


Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman was armed.

If he did, he probably wouldn't have doubled back to confront him.
 
2013-07-21 05:58:09 PM

Popcorn Johnny: youncasqua: lingered in the area because he didn't want to lead the dangerous stalker back to his home to endanger his family.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yes, a terrified for his life kid is going to be thinking like a master spy. Of all the ridiculous Team Trayvon talking points, this is the most hilarious. Lets also remember that he never called 911, ran through the neighborhood screaming for help or pounded on doors looking for somebody to save him.

One thing that's certain from what we know, Trayvon was not afraid that night.


Young men trend to think they are immortal, but seriously, his behavior was very consistent with fight or flight. Of the things you have said, your last statement is the least credible.
 
2013-07-21 05:58:14 PM

Popcorn Johnny: One thing that's certain from what we know, Trayvon was not afraid that night.


Really? You were there? Or you psychically remote viewed his mind?
 
2013-07-21 05:59:11 PM

Popcorn Johnny: youncasqua: lingered in the area because he didn't want to lead the dangerous stalker back to his home to endanger his family.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yes, a terrified for his life kid is going to be thinking like a master spy. Of all the ridiculous Team Trayvon talking points, this is the most hilarious. Lets also remember that he never called 911, ran through the neighborhood screaming for help or pounded on doors looking for somebody to save him.

One thing that's certain from what we know, Trayvon was not afraid that night.


Sorry, but that's pretty much the same level of bull as youncasqua is peddling. It is far from certain what Trayvon was actually feeling.
 
2013-07-21 06:00:01 PM

dittybopper: youncasqua: Zimmerman's possession of a firearm gave Trayvon the moral and legal right to use any and all force, including lethal force, to protect his life. And to seek to disarm the man.

Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman was armed.

If he did, he probably wouldn't have doubled back to confront him.


We can't know what Martin knew. Zimmerman could have threatened him our even brandished the weapon.
 
2013-07-21 06:00:16 PM

Mock26: I the criminal court finds me not guilty of arson then that has everything to do with you being out of a home, because I am not guilty of setting your house on fire!


Not at all. Their may not be enough evidence (beyond a reasonable doubt) to prove you set the house aflame, but their may be sufficient cause/evidence to claim you took part in its destruction (by being there with another who could have been the one to set fire to the house, or by securing blueprints of the house that we claim were used in the plan to set fire). Lots of ways the civil case can be brought even with failure of the criminal.

One (the criminal) seeks to determine guilt or non-guilt for purposes of meting punishment. The other (civil) is designed to seek redress for loss. You are more than welcome to say, "But a criminal court found me innocent" as your defense for the latter, but the two are entirely separate "charges" (as noted above) despite stemming from the same event, just like the murder/gun thing above.

To go with the gun thing: maybe you didn't fire the gun. Maybe you handed your gun to your friend, who shot the victim. In that case, yeah, you could be found innocent of firing the weapon but still culpable for the murder. Or perhaps you are found innocent of the murder (not enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt) but the family still sues you for loss because your actions resulted in his death (there is a preponderance of evidence to show you gave the gun to the guy who did kill the victim).
 
2013-07-21 06:00:19 PM

Amos Quito: ACLU Defends Zimmerman
Heads ASSPLODE natiowide

[www.planetcalypsoforum.com image 399x155]


The only heads assploding are those of people who are ignorant, uneducated, and/or just plain stupid.
 
2013-07-21 06:00:36 PM

hardinparamedic: Elegy: the foundation for supporting Zimmerman is based on self-defense, not race.

It doesn't help that argument when a lot of the comments that have been made have not been on self-defense, but have been racial in nature, and highly inflammatory at that.
What people SHOULD be pointing out is that there are no heroes in this. At all.


Zimmerman is far from being a hero, but Trayvon is hardly the only victim in this farce, especially with the actions of the state & the Feds.

And if the J4T protestors want to be stupid, that's fine. I don't have to sympathize with their stupidity, however. They're part of the problem of racism in this country, and certainly not the victims in this situation.

It's just a horrible situation. One that the President has consistently gotten on the wrong side of, time after time, IMO. The ACLU at least had the sense to change directions on it.

At least it's opened up the floodgates on the racism debate. Everyone, not just white folk, need to take a good look at what's being called "Racism" in this country, and then figure out why things are farked up from their perspectives.

So, in that regard, I don't care if the Team Zim people are treading on the racist line when it comes to the hyperbole in this shiatty situation, mainly because the racism bogeyman had nothing to do with the case at all until the race baiters in the Black community had to make it about race.
 
2013-07-21 06:01:29 PM

The Numbers: Sorry, but that's pretty much the same level of bull as youncasqua is peddling. It is far from certain what Trayvon was actually feeling.


He was chit chatting on the phone with a buddy, not something you do when scared. All the evidence shows that Trayvon was anything but scared.
 
2013-07-21 06:01:50 PM

Popcorn Johnny: First off, everything he said matches the available evidence.


1/10. Try at least.

Secondly what Team Trayvon considers lies are minor changes, mostly in particular words used when retelling his story four different times.

Actually, of the three lies I always discuss, two of them were made in the same statement, and disprovable by objective evidence. The third one was made on Hannity, and is also disprovable by objective evidence.

1) Zimmmerman said the dispatcher instructed him to follow Trayvon,
2) Zimmerman said he asked the dispatcher to have an officer meet him at the clubhouse,
3) Zimmerman told Hannity he'd "never heard" of SYG.

Another one came up today:

4) Zimmerman also said on Hannity that Trayvon didn't run away from him but skipped, and that Trayvon wasn't afraid. Which means either his statement on the 911 tape was false, or his statement on Hannity was false.

Thirdly, there wasn't one piece of evidence to convict him.

You know I'm playing along because I'm bored, right. Your clown shoes, man. They're showing from beneath those curtains.

An eyewitness places Trayvon on top of Zimmerman and there was no evidence that Zim initiated the physical exchange. There is no evidence that this was anything other than self defense, no matter how much you like to claim there is.

Evidence suggesting Zimmerman started the fight:

1) "assholes," "punks,"
2) presumption of Trayvon's criminality.
3) reckless, aggressive choices to follow Trayvon against Sandford NW protocol
4) minute and a half gap between when Zimmerman says the fight started, and when phone records indicate it did.
5) Zimmerman's materially false statements, from which we may permissibly infer deception, consciousness of wrongdoing, and consequent guilt.

Feel free to give specific details of the evidence that Zim committed a crime.

No longer really the issue.
 
2013-07-21 06:02:08 PM

dittybopper: tirob: dittybopper: tirob: The judge included it in her charge to the jury.

Because it was part of the standard jury instructions for self-defense cases.

Is there any record of whether the prosecution moved to have this part of the charge struck because they believed it to be inapplicable to the case?    ;-)

It's legal boilerplate.  If the judge struck it out of the jury instructions, that would be automatic grounds for appeal by the defense simply because the jury wasn't fully informed of Zimmerman's rights under state law.


Even legal boilerplate can be struck from a charge if one or another side objects to its being read and the judge rules in that side's favor.  Furthermore, neither of us knows whether the Stand Your Ground language in the charge influenced the jury's verdict.  I think that under such circumstances it is inaccurate to say that the Stand Your Ground provisions didn't form part of this case.
 
2013-07-21 06:02:19 PM

legion_of_doo: I don't care if the Team Zim people are treading on the racist line when it comes to the hyperbole in this shiatty situation, mainly because the racism bogeyman had nothing to do with the case at all until the race baiters in the Black community had to make it about race.


Uh, from the first moment this story broke on the right-wing blogosphere, it's been made about race.
 
2013-07-21 06:02:36 PM
Why would being scared preclude talking to a friend?
 
2013-07-21 06:03:58 PM

Popcorn Johnny: The Numbers: Sorry, but that's pretty much the same level of bull as youncasqua is peddling. It is far from certain what Trayvon was actually feeling.

He was chit chatting on the phone with a buddy, not something you do when scared. All the evidence shows that Trayvon was anything but scared.


Outward displays of bravado do not provide certainty as to inner feelings.
 
2013-07-21 06:05:35 PM

youncasqua: Popcorn Johnny: First off, everything he said matches the available evidence.

1/10. Try at least.

Secondly what Team Trayvon considers lies are minor changes, mostly in particular words used when retelling his story four different times.

Actually, of the three lies I always discuss, two of them were made in the same statement, and disprovable by objective evidence. The third one was made on Hannity, and is also disprovable by objective evidence.

1) Zimmmerman said the dispatcher instructed him to follow Trayvon,
2) Zimmerman said he asked the dispatcher to have an officer meet him at the clubhouse,
3) Zimmerman told Hannity he'd "never heard" of SYG.

Another one came up today:

4) Zimmerman also said on Hannity that Trayvon didn't run away from him but skipped, and that Trayvon wasn't afraid. Which means either his statement on the 911 tape was false, or his statement on Hannity was false.

Thirdly, there wasn't one piece of evidence to convict him.

You know I'm playing along because I'm bored, right. Your clown shoes, man. They're showing from beneath those curtains.

An eyewitness places Trayvon on top of Zimmerman and there was no evidence that Zim initiated the physical exchange. There is no evidence that this was anything other than self defense, no matter how much you like to claim there is.

Evidence suggesting Zimmerman started the fight:

1) "assholes," "punks,"
2) presumption of Trayvon's criminality.
3) reckless, aggressive choices to follow Trayvon against Sandford NW protocol
4) minute and a half gap between when Zimmerman says the fight started, and when phone records indicate it did.
5) Zimmerman's materially false statements, from which we may permissibly infer deception, consciousness of wrongdoing, and consequent guilt.

Feel free to give specific details of the evidence that Zim committed a crime.

No longer really the issue.


You can be convicted if manslaughter (which I believeZimmerman is guilty of) if you cause someones death sure to your negligence.
 
2013-07-21 06:07:41 PM
If the only thing that made Martin suspicious was his race and his wearing a hoodie, this is certainly about race.
 
2013-07-21 06:09:16 PM

hardinparamedic: Elegy: the foundation for supporting Zimmerman is based on self-defense, not race.

It doesn't help that argument when a lot of the comments that have been made have not been on self-defense, but have been racial in nature, and highly inflammatory at that.

What people SHOULD be pointing out is that there are no heroes in this. At all.


A lot of comments made from the J4T have been racist and inflammatory in nature.

Just because there are SOME idiots that you happen to despise saying despicable racist things, doesn't mean that we get to throw out things like reasons, facts, and the law.
 
2013-07-21 06:10:22 PM

youncasqua: 5) Zimmerman's materially false statements, from which we may permissibly infer deception, consciousness of wrongdoing, and consequent guilt.


You know, I'm actually starting to get the impression you genuinely believe this to be true and aren't just one of Fark's more committed (and successful) trolls.
 
2013-07-21 06:10:49 PM

Popcorn Johnny: The Numbers: Sorry, but that's pretty much the same level of bull as youncasqua is peddling. It is far from certain what Trayvon was actually feeling.

He was chit chatting on the phone with a buddy, not something you do when scared. All the evidence shows that Trayvon was anything but scared.


If Martin was carrying a burglar's tool that evening, as I conjectured in my post at 5:47, he may have indeed been scared--of getting arrested.
 
2013-07-21 06:11:02 PM

Mrs.Sharpier: I'm not reading all your derp in this thread, but do you ever go outside? You're consistently in these threads, why are you so obsessed?


i39.tinypic.com
 
2013-07-21 06:14:29 PM

youncasqua: Another one came up today:

4) Zimmerman also said on Hannity that Trayvon didn't run away from him but skipped, and that Trayvon wasn't afraid. Which means either his statement on the 911 tape was false, or his statement on Hannity was false.


You're just not very bright. Zimmerman has always said that Trayvon was running. When he did the interview with Hannity, he used the word "skipping" as a way of attempting to show that Trayvon wasn't running away at full speed, but was being more casual about it. Not finding the right word or way of getting your point across is a hell of a long ways away from lying.

You stay gold though, Pony Boy.
 
2013-07-21 06:15:11 PM

coyo: dittybopper: youncasqua: Zimmerman's possession of a firearm gave Trayvon the moral and legal right to use any and all force, including lethal force, to protect his life. And to seek to disarm the man.

Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman was armed.

If he did, he probably wouldn't have doubled back to confront him.

We can't know what Martin knew. Zimmerman could have threatened him our even brandished the weapon.


And your evidence for this is, what?

I could be a hot 21 year old nymphomaniac with huge breasts and no gag reflex for all you know.
 
2013-07-21 06:15:25 PM

hardinparamedic: legion_of_doo: I don't care if the Team Zim people are treading on the racist line when it comes to the hyperbole in this shiatty situation, mainly because the racism bogeyman had nothing to do with the case at all until the race baiters in the Black community had to make it about race.

Uh, from the first moment this story broke on the right-wing blogosphere, it's been made about race.


If you're looking for a first cause for injecting the racial narrative into this case, look no further than Melissa Harris-Perry, who played loose and fast with the facts to sensationalize this story into a narrative about a white supremacist hunting and killing a white child. Edited non-emergency tapes, "farking coons," making a white supremacist out of a Hispanic that was a poster boy for racial tolerance before all this happened, etc.

Just because you happen to agree with MHP's brand of racism more than the conservative brand, doesn't make either of them more right than the other.

Facts make one side more right than the other, racist bullshiat aside.
 
2013-07-21 06:16:47 PM

dittybopper: coyo: dittybopper: youncasqua: Zimmerman's possession of a firearm gave Trayvon the moral and legal right to use any and all force, including lethal force, to protect his life. And to seek to disarm the man.

Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman was armed.

If he did, he probably wouldn't have doubled back to confront him.

We can't know what Martin knew. Zimmerman could have threatened him our even brandished the weapon.

And your evidence for this is, what?

I could be a hot 21 year old nymphomaniac with huge breasts and no gag reflex for all you know.


Further expanding on this, Martin was on the phone with Rachel Jeantel right up to the physical confrontation, and he apparently didn't mention anything about a gun to her.

Oh, and I'm blond, too.  And I shave.
 
2013-07-21 06:16:52 PM

coyo: If the only thing that made Martin suspicious was his race and his wearing a hoodie, this is certainly about race.


Then it's a good thing he was concerned about the fact that Martin was walking unusually slowly and looking into people's houses.
 
2013-07-21 06:18:28 PM

Elegy: Just because you happen to agree with MHP's brand of racism more than the conservative brand, doesn't make either of them more right than the other.


You've got to be shiatting me.
 
2013-07-21 06:31:31 PM

Wyalt Derp: Popcorn Johnny: Oh boy, here we go. Please enlighten us as to what stand your ground had to do with the case.

Travon Martin stood his ground against a guy who was stalking and intimidating him, however this defence was rejected and he was sentenced to execution by lethal shooting.


Please demonstrate that Mr. Martin faced a reasonable fear of imminent grievous bodily injury or death at the time that he physically attacked Mr. Zimmerman.
 
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