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(Herald Tribune (SW Florida))   Remember those warrantless door to door searches everyone was okay with in Boston because it was a unique circumstance and other police agencies would never try it? Welcome to the new America   (heraldtribune.com) divider line 582
    More: Asinine, Louise Goldsberry, United States Marshals Service, police raid, home invasions  
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25531 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Jul 2013 at 6:02 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-20 09:17:24 PM  

LordOfThePings: Igor Jakovsky: MurphyMurphy: ManateeGag: what shiatty interactions have you had with police officers? I've never, not ever once, had a horrible interaction with a police officer where I thought I was going to get shot or he was going to fark me over. I've felt like an idiot for getting a ticket a few times, but none of them have ever been outright assholes to me.

Let's play pictionary

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 252x147][www.dntdesigns.co.uk image 225x183]

whitebread world?

Wonderplanet


Yeasty Marble?
 
2013-07-20 09:18:26 PM  

fnordfocus: bhcompy: Cops aren't your friends or your enemies, they're just strangers with guns.  How do you treat strangers with guns that you meet?

I've met plenty of strangers with guns at the range.

One or two were dumb enough I though they might shoot me by accident, but I didn't think any of them would kill me deliberately.  I can't say the same about Cops I've met.


The question isn't what bias you have or what you believe, rather it is how do you treat them when you meet them?

Also, I'd suggest your example isn't really valid, since one would expect everyone at a gun range to have guns and use them more or less what the range is there for, while a stranger showing up at your door with a gun is a completely different scenario
 
2013-07-20 09:19:35 PM  

AngryDragon: Smackledorfer: AngryDragon: cig-mkr: You will be reading more articles like this........give someone an inch and they will take a mile. It will become the norm.

But "Slippery Slope" is a fallacy!  Just ask the anti-abortion loons, and the anti-gun nuts, and the Corporate Deregulation lobbyists, and....

Slippery slope is not a valid argument unless you can connect the dots.

Why this is so hard for people to grasp I have no idea, but I am sure you could find a dumbed down explanation with a quick googling if you or anyone else is having trouble.

Dot One:

[farm4.static.flickr.com image 500x335]

Dot Two:

[media.utsandiego.com image 850x574]


Pretty much. People say the slippery slope doesn't exist but that's because they their memory doesn't go back past lunch.

For this subject matter I suggest watching the Fox TV show "COPS". Start at the beginning in ~1989 and watch through the present day. Not every episode, just a representative sample. Yes it's TV. Yes it's edited. Yes it's idealized cop behavior. Yes it's done to make cops look good. But all of that is a constant and the goal is to see the change. These constants drop out of the equation. The change is documented by this show. Watch a 20+ year old episode of "COPS" it's shocking how different their behavior is. It's civil. It's confident, not paranoid. They don't scream at people as much. Someone owning guns  don't result in any over the top response. They deal with people instead of scream commands at them like they are the gunny and the other person is private Pyle.
 
2013-07-20 09:19:44 PM  

Smackledorfer: And in the country I doubt there were ever any Andy griffiths, but more like a heck of a lot of Walking Talls.


You sound like you live in a big city.
 
2013-07-20 09:19:51 PM  
Warrants.  Still the law.  And if you can't follow the laws that you are paid to enforce and instead break them while brandishing weapons, guess what your job description says now, sh*t for brains.
 
2013-07-20 09:20:32 PM  
How come we're cool with giving more and more power to our government, or our military, or the NSA, etc., and yet we hate when cops exercise their authority?
 
2013-07-20 09:21:58 PM  

Triumph: When I was a kid, I was brainwashed to love the militarization of police. So really, how can I object now?


I believe it is the routine use of SWAT teams, increased police paramilitary tactics as normal business, and lack of groovy sound tracks during home assaults than creates fear in the civilian population.
 
2013-07-20 09:22:10 PM  

sendtodave: and yet we hate when cops exercise their authority

 go on hooligan binges and assault innocent people violently and menace them with weapons without warrant or cause  ?

Yeah..
 
2013-07-20 09:22:24 PM  

RINO: I hope that I would be able to stand by my principles, but I doubt I'd be able to find another job in that line of work again. It's part of the reason I don't want to hire on to some big city department. I WANT to work some podunk town; some little place where I can give a drunk a ride home from the bar instead of waiting until I see him get into his car so I can meet my DUI ticket quota. Ideally, some place small enough that I could actually walk the beat, though that's probably a pipedream.


No offense... but you're going to be a horrible cop.
 
2013-07-20 09:23:57 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Let me clarify with this too - her screaming was the only reason they had legitimate cause to enter the apartment.

If they'd knocked normally, she'd opened the door unarmed, and refused them entry, any further push to enter the apartment would have been wrong.


Police aren't allowed to manufacture an exigent circumstance to sidestep the warrant requirement.
 
2013-07-20 09:24:22 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: RINO: I hope that I would be able to stand by my principles, but I doubt I'd be able to find another job in that line of work again. It's part of the reason I don't want to hire on to some big city department. I WANT to work some podunk town; some little place where I can give a drunk a ride home from the bar instead of waiting until I see him get into his car so I can meet my DUI ticket quota. Ideally, some place small enough that I could actually walk the beat, though that's probably a pipedream.

No offense... but you're going to be a horrible cop.


The police are supposed to help people, not act like an occupying army.
 
2013-07-20 09:24:24 PM  

bunner: sendtodave: and yet we hate when cops exercise their authority go on hooligan binges and assault innocent people violently and menace them with weapons without warrant or cause  ?

Yeah..


That's always been how cops exercise their authority.
 
2013-07-20 09:24:35 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: No offense... but you're going to be a horrible cop.


So, actual police work = horrible cop?
 
2013-07-20 09:24:42 PM  
ftfa:

"I feel bad for her," Wiggins conceded, finally. "But at the same time, I had to reasonably believe the bad guy was in her house based on what they were doing."

So, you hit the deck when a laser sight is pointed at your forehead.... that's cause for a warrant-less detainment and search.
 
2013-07-20 09:26:20 PM  

NeoAnderthal: Busting in without a warrant? Sounds like a cop going rogue and a lawsuit to me.


farm6.static.flickr.com
 
2013-07-20 09:26:40 PM  

stuffy: Like no on has ever impersonated a cop.
Here is crazy idea. Have the girl 911 and verify they are real cops.


Cops on the scene don't wait for verification and such behavior tends to anger them these days.

See all the stories of cops abusing people and otherwise over reacting when someone follows the guidelines issued by police departments to avoid being victimized by fake cops.

Waiting to pull over in a "well lit area" or a area that is safe from traffic seems to really piss them off these days. Better to pull over immediately where they'll have their ass sticking out into traffic and likely get hit by truck. If they want you to go somewhere else they'll say something.
 
2013-07-20 09:26:55 PM  

Gyrfalcon: There's a very easy way to prevent this ever happening again:

Disallow no-knock warrants.

No-knock warrants were originally allowed because cops, prosecutors and other law&order types were afraid that the knock-and-announce requirements would give evil drug dealers and other thugs a chance to destroy evidence, flee out the back, etc. So judges started signing off on no-knock warrants because of the dangers that when the door was finally answered, there would be no evidence to find.

Well, so be it. No more no-knock warrants, and if the evidence is gone by the time the crooks answer the door, then that's going to be the price of doing business. Is that how people want to proceed? Because it's an easy fix if you want it.


If the evidence exists in so small an amount that it can be flushed down the toilet in the time it takes to knock on a door... uh. Yeah. Maybe it's not a big deal if they get off.
 
2013-07-20 09:27:00 PM  

sendtodave: How come we're cool with giving more and more power to our government, or our military, or the NSA, etc., and yet we hate when cops exercise their authority?


Cops are civilians and their task is to enforce the laws of the people when the people themselves are not able to. That's why they have no business pointing guns through random windows and entering your property without a warrant.
 
2013-07-20 09:27:23 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: If I'm understanding the timeline of this correctly:

1. Lady sees a guy in a hunting vest pointing a gun at her while she's washing dishes (I'm assuming she saw him through a window as mysterious hunting-vest-dude apparently disappears from the rest of the story, perhaps it was one of the officers)

2. Lady starts screaming (understandably) and crawls across the floor to get her gun

3. There's a banging on the door and someone identifying themselves as a police officer requests entry (which is understandable considering he just heard screaming coming from inside the apartment)

4. After the door doesn't open, the police force it open, again, which is understandable - warrants aren't needed for exigent circumstances, and he just heard a lady screaming and is apparently aware that there's reported fugitive, possibly armed, in the area

5.  Because he's concerned for her safety and there is a possible armed fugitive, he comes in fully armed, and rightfully tells her to put down her weapon.

6.  The boyfriend asks to come out, he's let out, and immediately handcuffed, appropriately, as the police don't know who he is, if this is a domestic dispute, if he's the fugitive, etc, better safe than sorry - restrain him and then figure out what's going on

7.  The lady is screaming things that aren't related to the situation (being an American citizen does not give you the right to hold a gun on a police officer or to disobey their orders in that type of situation) but is finally calmed down by the boyfriend after he sees the other police outside.

8. Lady puts her gun down, the house is searched (there was a confrontation inside the home, screaming coming from it, it seems reasonable to me)

9. The situation is explained to the lady and her boyfriend, and they're let go

I don't see a police over-reach in this.  If an officer was driving past my house and heard loud screaming in terror I'd want him to come in as I very well could be in mortal danger.  Perhaps the guy was a b ...


Hahahahahahahaha  Herr look everyone, Cruiser Twelve changed his handle, either that or we have another troll amongst us

 
2013-07-20 09:27:30 PM  

sendtodave: That's always been how cops exercise their authority.


That's not within their aurhoity.  Words man things.
 
2013-07-20 09:28:18 PM  
authority, I mean.  I can't type for sh*t.
 
2013-07-20 09:28:23 PM  

MrHappyRotter: Unfortunately, this is not at all the least tiny little bit surprising to me.

I am, for the most part, a law abiding goody two shoes.  I do absolutely nothing to draw attention to myself, live a quiet life, and absolutely avoid confrontation unless it's a necessity.  And out of the very few interactions I've had with police, a high proportion of them have been unpleasant to say the least.  The bad experiences have ranged from a very aggressive and belligerent cop degrading me and using profanity, cops holding me up for over 1 hour for a traffic stop for what turned out to be a misunderstanding on their part and a probably illegal search of my premises because the cops mistook hibiscus for marijuana.  In fact, the only time I was involved with a cop who was at least respectful, was when I was in violation of the law for speeding.

So, count me in with the folks who've gotten fed up.


I'm also a [white] goody two shoes with an impeccable driving record and zero arrests.  My one encounter with the police about a decade ago was a horrible experience that still angers me to this day.

That one experience bothers me so much that I've only shared it with one other human being.

\I should have sued
 
2013-07-20 09:28:39 PM  

RINO: Pray 4 Mojo: RINO: I hope that I would be able to stand by my principles, but I doubt I'd be able to find another job in that line of work again. It's part of the reason I don't want to hire on to some big city department. I WANT to work some podunk town; some little place where I can give a drunk a ride home from the bar instead of waiting until I see him get into his car so I can meet my DUI ticket quota. Ideally, some place small enough that I could actually walk the beat, though that's probably a pipedream.

No offense... but you're going to be a horrible cop.

The police are supposed to help people, not act like an occupying army.


Sorry... I meant from the perspective of other cops... and your superiors... which is important.

As a civilian... I think you'd be an awesome cop.

Problem is... cops deal with assholes all day... every day. Criminals or other cops. That wears you down... and of course... thin blue line and all that.

Cheers to you for hoping you can make a difference... my experience tells me that you can't.
 
2013-07-20 09:28:44 PM  

Aristocles: ftfa:

"I feel bad for her," Wiggins conceded, finally. "But at the same time, I had to reasonably believe the bad guy was in her house based on what they were doing."

So, you hit the deck when a laser sight is pointed at your forehead.... that's cause for a warrant-less detainment and search.


Whatever it takes to get "the bad guy."

Civilians are all potentially bad guys.  They will be treated as such.
 
2013-07-20 09:28:57 PM  
www.gta-worldmods.de
 
2013-07-20 09:29:25 PM  

bunner: Words man things.


Indeed, sir.

Indeed.
 
2013-07-20 09:31:23 PM  

Aristocles: Cops are civilians


Who undergo military training to better control dangerous situations, other civilians.
 
2013-07-20 09:31:39 PM  

firefly212: As one of the few people in the thread absolutely condemning the Boston PD's actions and pointing out that they had no warrant and they didn't have probable cause to believe that the suspect was in ALL of the houses they searched (warrants must be for a PARTICULAR place and person, as specified by the 4th Amendment)


Who in Boston said no and got their house searched anyway?
 
2013-07-20 09:31:44 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Really? Sounds like a bunch of cops exercising their machismo and power-high on a Very Important Mission, and and teaching some insufficiently servile biatch a lesson to me. Damn, they did everything but gang-rape her to prove their power.

Remember friends - Police are not nice. Never, ever trust them, and never, ever call them unless you have absolutely no alternative. They are as likely to shoot you as they are to shoot the bad guy. They are even somewhat likely to think you ARE the bad guy, if you don't cower in awe before them


This right here, this should be taught in schools to children.  This should be on after school specials so kids can learn and save their lives when they get older.
 
2013-07-20 09:31:45 PM  

RINO: The police are supposed to help people, not act like an occupying army.


They are supposed to act like an occupying army. It's how they are trained. It's how their job is constructed. That and the company town like aspect of making sure people don't consume substances their owners don't approve of and the like. That's what they are supposed to do. They are now 'law enforcement'. The peace officer is long gone.

They are advertised as helping people, but that's not what they are supposed to do. Just the BS sales pitch.
 
2013-07-20 09:32:13 PM  

Aristocles: bunner: Words man things.

Indeed, sir.

Indeed.


Yeah I can't type very well.  If I were you, I'd either dismiss any statements I make wholesale whilst trying to hold me up for schoolboy derision or just, you know, give me the F.  I'm fine with the F.
 
2013-07-20 09:32:20 PM  
Where's Cruiser Twelve to defend this shiat?
 
2013-07-20 09:33:15 PM  

sendtodave: Aristocles: Cops are civilians

Who undergo military training to better control dangerous situations, other civilians.


chattanoogan.com
 
2013-07-20 09:33:22 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: RINO: Pray 4 Mojo: RINO: I hope that I would be able to stand by my principles, but I doubt I'd be able to find another job in that line of work again. It's part of the reason I don't want to hire on to some big city department. I WANT to work some podunk town; some little place where I can give a drunk a ride home from the bar instead of waiting until I see him get into his car so I can meet my DUI ticket quota. Ideally, some place small enough that I could actually walk the beat, though that's probably a pipedream.

No offense... but you're going to be a horrible cop.

The police are supposed to help people, not act like an occupying army.

Sorry... I meant from the perspective of other cops... and your superiors... which is important.

As a civilian... I think you'd be an awesome cop.

Problem is... cops deal with assholes all day... every day. Criminals or other cops. That wears you down... and of course... thin blue line and all that.

Cheers to you for hoping you can make a difference... my experience tells me that you can't.


I also doubt I can affect any meaningful change, but I feel my best chance to do so is in a small department.
 
2013-07-20 09:33:34 PM  

bunner: sendtodave: That's always been how cops exercise their authority.

That's not within their aurhoity.  Words man things.


I believe they'd see the limits of their authority differently than you or I would.

I believe that their bosses, and the local DA, would back them up.
 
2013-07-20 09:34:24 PM  
Too bad the cop didn't wind up shot. Sure, it probably wouldn't work out well for the woman, but at least the farker would be dead.
 
2013-07-20 09:34:46 PM  

Frederick: Smackledorfer: And in the country I doubt there were ever any Andy griffiths, but more like a heck of a lot of Walking Talls.

You sound like you live in a big city.


Do I sound that way? Because I don't live in a big city.
 
2013-07-20 09:34:58 PM  

bunner: Aristocles: bunner: Words man things.

Indeed, sir.

Indeed.

Yeah I can't type very well.  If I were you, I'd either dismiss any statements I make wholesale whilst trying to hold me up for schoolboy derision or just, you know, give me the F.  I'm fine with the F.


I'll give you a D... I don't want you farking up my class next year too.
 
2013-07-20 09:36:09 PM  

sendtodave: I believe they'd see the limits of their authority differently than you or I would.

I believe that their bosses, and the local DA, would back them up.


I believe sh*t stinks but if I step in a wad of it from you not cleaning up after it, we're gonna dance.  Cool, detached "oh but my dear boy" does not put any perfume on the poo, y'all.
 
2013-07-20 09:37:21 PM  

FizixJunkee: So, count me in with the folks who've gotten fed up.

I'm also a [white] goody two shoes with an impeccable driving record and zero arrests. My one encounter with the police about a decade ago was a horrible experience that still angers me to this day.


Same here.  Except two encounters.

1) While supposedly chasing a hit & run suspect, cops knock on my door after I look out my window because I hear a car driving down my secluded street.  They ask to come inside to search for suspect -without warrant.

2) Two plainclothes detectives in unmarked car draw their weapons on me and my supervisor in our company parking lot for playing with stomp rockets.
 
2013-07-20 09:37:24 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: bunner: Aristocles: bunner: Words man things.

Indeed, sir.

Indeed.

Yeah I can't type very well.  If I were you, I'd either dismiss any statements I make wholesale whilst trying to hold me up for schoolboy derision or just, you know, give me the F.  I'm fine with the F.

I'll give you a D... I don't want you farking up my class next year too.


And I'll give you a seat in the Look how clever I am!" section.   :  )
 
2013-07-20 09:37:28 PM  

sendtodave: Aristocles: Cops are civilians

Who undergo military training to better control dangerous situations, other civilians.


Funny thing is, National Guard members aren't even allowed to raise their weapons when they help out on the border, but these cops think it's fine to sneak up on a 59 y/o woman doing dishes and point guns at her head.

I wish cops were as disciplined as some of the service members I've met.
 
2013-07-20 09:37:38 PM  

RINO: I also doubt I can affect any meaningful change, but I feel my best chance to do so is in a small department.


Agreed. Good luck to you... fight the good fight.
 
2013-07-20 09:38:13 PM  

Jon iz teh kewl: sendtodave: Aristocles: Cops are civilians

Who undergo military training to better control dangerous situations, other civilians.

[chattanoogan.com image 800x530]


yeahhhhhhhh, whatever

carpetblog.typepad.com
 
2013-07-20 09:38:46 PM  

leadmetal: RINO: The police are supposed to help people, not act like an occupying army.

They are supposed to act like an occupying army. It's how they are trained. It's how their job is constructed. That and the company town like aspect of making sure people don't consume substances their owners don't approve of and the like. That's what they are supposed to do. They are now 'law enforcement'. The peace officer is long gone.

They are advertised as helping people, but that's not what they are supposed to do. Just the BS sales pitch.


It doesn't have to be that way, though. Cities that implement "community policing"have their crime rates drop at a comparable or faster rate than those that choose increasing "militarization", with the added bonus of the general population having more trust in police officers.
 
m00
2013-07-20 09:38:50 PM  
leadmetal:
Waiting to pull over in a "well lit area" or a area that is safe from traffic seems to really piss them off these days. Better to pull over immediately where they'll have their ass sticking out into traffic and likely get hit by truck. If they want you to go somewhere else they'll say something.

Thing is, if you do this cops have a right to shoot you. Well, when I did this the cop screamed at me with a gun in my face that he could shoot me at it would be justified. Think about that. After I was pulled over, he threatened to shoot me then and there because I didn't immediately pull over and instead drove about 50 feet into a parking lot. Because that was his right. In fact, he made it clear he could shoot me at any time and that was his prerogative.

Cops believe they have the right to shoot you if you don't obey some arbitrary rule they invent in their mind. Even much later when you clearly aren't a threat.

What was my crime? I had my front plates on the back and my back plates on the front (because I had just renewed my registration and had to put the plates on in the dark because I drove to school when it was still dark out).
 
2013-07-20 09:39:13 PM  
FTFA: Maybe none of them had a gun pointed at them through the kitchen window, I suggested. But Wiggins didn't think that was much excuse for the woman's behavior. He said he acted with restraint and didn't like having that gun aimed at him. "I went above and beyond," Wiggins said. "I have to go home at night."

Rules for thee are not for me.  I *am* the law.
 
2013-07-20 09:39:15 PM  

Mithiwithi: Who in Boston said no and got their house searched anyway?


Are you suggesting permission was asked?
 
2013-07-20 09:39:16 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I like how the cop thinks that since he didn't shoot her she shouldn't be going to the press

/Christ what an asshole


Guy should be fired and imprisoned. That kind of nut is going to kill many innocent people before his bullshiat "career" is over
 
2013-07-20 09:39:20 PM  

bunner: Aristocles: bunner: Words man things.

Indeed, sir.

Indeed.

Yeah I can't type very well.  If I were you, I'd either dismiss any statements I make wholesale whilst trying to hold me up for schoolboy derision or just, you know, give me the F.  I'm fine with the F.


I'm just messing around. If I keep drinkin' and stick around in this thread, I'll get just as bad.
 
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