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(Herald Tribune (SW Florida))   Remember those warrantless door to door searches everyone was okay with in Boston because it was a unique circumstance and other police agencies would never try it? Welcome to the new America   (heraldtribune.com) divider line 592
    More: Asinine, Louise Goldsberry, United States Marshals Service, police raid, home invasions  
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25524 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Jul 2013 at 6:02 PM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-20 06:04:37 PM

TuteTibiImperes: I don't see a police over-reach in this. If an officer was driving past my house and heard loud screaming in terror I'd want him to come in as I very well could be in mortal danger. Perhaps the guy was a bit gruff in his language, but he identified himself as a police officer and the couple delayed allowing him entry, and then the lady refused to lower her weapon. She's frankly lucky that she didn't get shot.


Absolutely this.  What if she was a siren?  Her carelessness could have seduced the cops and then the streets would have fewer cops and then the Greek gods would come marching right the fark down.  And believe me, you don't want to live in America which is controlled by crazy theocrats.  Get Ares in charge and this country will just start going to war with everyone.  Oh wait, Taxbongo already did this.  Thanks, Taxbongo.
 
2013-07-20 06:04:52 PM

ecmoRandomNumbers: TuteTibiImperes: Pray 4 Mojo: TuteTibiImperes: Let me clarify with this too - her screaming was the only reason they had legitimate cause to enter the apartment.

If they'd knocked normally, she'd opened the door unarmed, and refused them entry, any further push to enter the apartment would have been wrong.

Here is the problem with that (assuming this is a reasonably accurate description of that the Marshal actually said):

But when the people in Goldsberry's apartment didn't open up, that told Wiggins he had probably found the right door. No one at other units had reacted that way, he said.

"Open up. It's the police" does not give officers free reign to do whatever the fark they want.

Screaming heard from inside the apartment, no one answers when the police identify themselves, to me that's a legitimate reason to open the door to check on the safety of those inside.

I think you're failing to understand what elicited the screams in the first place. They could've thrown in a smoke grenade and the other cops go barging in saying, "We saw smoke!"

That seems OK to you?


If they knew the screaming was because of the other cops' actions it would be wrong.  If they believed it was because of the fugitive, a domestic dispute, or some other reason unrelated to their presence, it wouldn't be wrong.
 
2013-07-20 06:07:12 PM

TuteTibiImperes: If I'm understanding the timeline of this correctly:

1. Lady sees a guy in a hunting vest pointing a gun at her while she's washing dishes (I'm assuming she saw him through a window as mysterious hunting-vest-dude apparently disappears from the rest of the story, perhaps it was one of the officers)

2. Lady starts screaming (understandably) and crawls across the floor to get her gun

3. There's a banging on the door and someone identifying themselves as a police officer requests entry (which is understandable considering he just heard screaming coming from inside the apartment)

4. After the door doesn't open, the police force it open, again, which is understandable - warrants aren't needed for exigent circumstances, and he just heard a lady screaming and is apparently aware that there's reported fugitive, possibly armed, in the area

5.  Because he's concerned for her safety and there is a possible armed fugitive, he comes in fully armed, and rightfully tells her to put down her weapon.

6.  The boyfriend asks to come out, he's let out, and immediately handcuffed, appropriately, as the police don't know who he is, if this is a domestic dispute, if he's the fugitive, etc, better safe than sorry - restrain him and then figure out what's going on

7.  The lady is screaming things that aren't related to the situation (being an American citizen does not give you the right to hold a gun on a police officer or to disobey their orders in that type of situation) but is finally calmed down by the boyfriend after he sees the other police outside.

8. Lady puts her gun down, the house is searched (there was a confrontation inside the home, screaming coming from it, it seems reasonable to me)

9. The situation is explained to the lady and her boyfriend, and they're let go

I don't see a police over-reach in this.  If an officer was driving past my house and heard loud screaming in terror I'd want him to come in as I very well could be in mortal danger.  Perhaps the guy was a b ...


...Magnificent!
 
2013-07-20 06:07:15 PM

vudutek: Remember the good old days of " If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about"?


I think it's become more of "If it's not you in trouble, it's nothing to worry about. The person in trouble probably deserved it."
 
2013-07-20 06:10:05 PM
Well except for the fact that the situation was nothing like Boston, and the cops were US Marshals, and likely to get in a shiatload of trouble over this, yeah, I can see where Subby is right to be concerned about the similarities and the dangers of an incipient police state.
 
2013-07-20 06:11:18 PM
People were okay with the Boston thing? I thought they were just trying to troll.
 
2013-07-20 06:13:15 PM
Welcome to the United Police States of America.
 
2013-07-20 06:14:18 PM
But when the people in Goldsberry's apartment didn't open up, that told Wiggins he had probably found the right door.

That's some fine police work there.
 
2013-07-20 06:14:47 PM
What is it with you people and your obsessions with 'freedom'?
The USA is one of the least 'free' places in the first world, we're just sold an illusion that we're free in order to placate us and keep us on the same side as the authorities.
Either wake up and smell the mushroom tea, and in the process accept that you're not 'free', or keep drinking the Kool Aid, but please stop harping on about civil liberties or losses of freedom.
The police are employed to control you, let them do that or pay the consequences.
 
2013-07-20 06:15:25 PM
Yup.... and after a few more of these, a group of criminals will kelvar up, raid a place as "police", and they're be able to get in and out without incident, until the local police find out, "hey! that wasn't OUR raid!"
 
2013-07-20 06:15:47 PM
If you're really outraged about this you should kill the police officer they named in the article. Otherwise it's just a bunch of complaining that won't lead to anything.
 
2013-07-20 06:15:51 PM

Weaver95: I don't think anyone really wants to stop and admit to themselves just how terrified our culture is these days.  one more big terror scare and that might be enough to push our culture over the edge into psychotic paranoia.


It's not the culture. It's the shiat-stains who have their boots on your throat and force you to pay them for your enslavement.
 
2013-07-20 06:15:53 PM

TuteTibiImperes: If I'm understanding the timeline of this correctly:

1. Lady sees a guy in a hunting vest pointing a gun at her while she's washing dishes (I'm assuming she saw him through a window as mysterious hunting-vest-dude apparently disappears from the rest of the story, perhaps it was one of the officers)

2. Lady starts screaming (understandably) and crawls across the floor to get her gun

3. There's a banging on the door and someone identifying themselves as a police officer requests entry (which is understandable considering he just heard screaming coming from inside the apartment)

4. After the door doesn't open, the police force it open, again, which is understandable - warrants aren't needed for exigent circumstances, and he just heard a lady screaming and is apparently aware that there's reported fugitive, possibly armed, in the area

5.  Because he's concerned for her safety and there is a possible armed fugitive, he comes in fully armed, and rightfully tells her to put down her weapon.

6.  The boyfriend asks to come out, he's let out, and immediately handcuffed, appropriately, as the police don't know who he is, if this is a domestic dispute, if he's the fugitive, etc, better safe than sorry - restrain him and then figure out what's going on

7.  The lady is screaming things that aren't related to the situation (being an American citizen does not give you the right to hold a gun on a police officer or to disobey their orders in that type of situation) but is finally calmed down by the boyfriend after he sees the other police outside.

8. Lady puts her gun down, the house is searched (there was a confrontation inside the home, screaming coming from it, it seems reasonable to me)

9. The situation is explained to the lady and her boyfriend, and they're let go

I don't see a police over-reach in this.  If an officer was driving past my house and heard loud screaming in terror I'd want him to come in as I very well could be in mortal danger.  Perhaps the guy was a b ...


I've bolded the issue. The cops should have done nothing until figuring out exactly what was going on.
 
2013-07-20 06:16:35 PM
You will be reading more articles like this........give someone an inch and they will take a mile. It will become the norm.
 
2013-07-20 06:17:10 PM
More and more people are packing these days and if cops keep doing this shiat they're going to end up getting shot by people standing their ground to protect themselves and their property. If you're going to treat all citizens as armed and dangerous criminals you can't expect citizens to not treat all intruders as armed and dangerous criminals.
 
2013-07-20 06:17:46 PM
Obama will quickly nip this problem in the bud!
 
2013-07-20 06:17:49 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: People were okay with the Boston thing? I thought they were just trying to troll.


There were many on here that were fine with it.  It was...odd.  I don't think they were trolling either.
 
2013-07-20 06:17:53 PM
20 goto 10;
 
2013-07-20 06:18:26 PM

vudutek: Remember the good old days of " If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about"?


When was that?
 
2013-07-20 06:18:38 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Weaver95: TuteTibiImperes: Let me clarify with this too - her screaming was the only reason they had legitimate cause to enter the apartment.

If they'd knocked normally, she'd opened the door unarmed, and refused them entry, any further push to enter the apartment would have been wrong.

so all the cops gotta do is make up some bullshiat about exigent circumstances and you're good with them violating your rights?

I wouldn't be cool with them making something up, no.  In this case however she admitted herself she was screaming her lungs out.  Ideally in the case of an illegal search where the officer stated that he heard something/smelled something that was evidence of a crime there would be some witnesses to back that story up and you would be able to have the search thrown out in court if it came to that.

Even better, we could expect officers of the law to not make shiat up (there will always be some bad apples, but from my experience the majority aren't corrupt).


If somebody started banging on my door, identifying themselves as "the farking police" seconds after some dude in a hunting vest just scared the shiat out of me in my own home, I sure as hell wouldn't let in the supposed "farking police officer." The timing is just too convenient.
 
2013-07-20 06:19:26 PM

you are a puppet: If you're really outraged about this you should kill the police officer they named in the article. Otherwise it's just a bunch of complaining that won't lead to anything.


I haven't even killed ZImmerman yet!
 
2013-07-20 06:19:33 PM

TuteTibiImperes: She's frankly lucky that she didn't get shot.


THEY are lucky THEY didn't get shot. Her home, bro. Her farking home.
 
2013-07-20 06:19:59 PM
Matt Wiggins, US Marshall Asshole-of-theYear.

Deserves to lose his job and his pension for that kind of behavior and poor judgment.

And the two victims of his brutal and illegal assault deserve to be made wealthy at his employer's expense to discourage this kind of thing in the future.
 
2013-07-20 06:20:18 PM

I_C_Weener: The My Little Pony Killer: People were okay with the Boston thing? I thought they were just trying to troll.

There were many on here that were fine with it.  It was...odd.  I don't think they were trolling either.


I just assumed that they were really bad at it, what with calling the rest of us "pussies" for not wanting our homes violated.
 
2013-07-20 06:20:26 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Pray 4 Mojo: TuteTibiImperes: Let me clarify with this too - her screaming was the only reason they had legitimate cause to enter the apartment.

If they'd knocked normally, she'd opened the door unarmed, and refused them entry, any further push to enter the apartment would have been wrong.

Here is the problem with that (assuming this is a reasonably accurate description of that the Marshal actually said):

But when the people in Goldsberry's apartment didn't open up, that told Wiggins he had probably found the right door. No one at other units had reacted that way, he said.

"Open up. It's the police" does not give officers free reign to do whatever the fark they want.

Screaming heard from inside the apartment, no one answers when the police identify themselves, to me that's a legitimate reason to open the door to check on the safety of those inside.


It wasn't "no one answers when police identified themselves" it was a person inside the apartment responding to a voice through the door that claimed they were the police by asking for some identification yo be shown. Any law enforcement officer that has a problem with showing identification needs to be released to find another line of work.
 
2013-07-20 06:20:53 PM

tricycleracer: But when the people in Goldsberry's apartment didn't open up, that told Wiggins he had probably found the right door.

That's some fine police work there.


anyone who runs is a criminal.  Anyone who stands still is a well disciplined criminal.
 
2013-07-20 06:21:02 PM

edmo: More and more people are packing these days and if cops keep doing this shiat they're going to end up getting shot by people standing their ground to protect themselves and their property. If you're going to treat all citizens as armed and dangerous criminals you can't expect citizens to not treat all intruders as armed and dangerous criminals.


A bunch of armed cops versus one armed person is always going to end up with the civilian dying though, like the old lady here in Atlanta about a decade ago. Not just because of strength in numbers but who is more prepared for a shootout, the frightened homeowner or the assault crew on the offensive?
 
2013-07-20 06:21:48 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Pray 4 Mojo: TuteTibiImperes: Let me clarify with this too - her screaming was the only reason they had legitimate cause to enter the apartment.

If they'd knocked normally, she'd opened the door unarmed, and refused them entry, any further push to enter the apartment would have been wrong.

Here is the problem with that (assuming this is a reasonably accurate description of that the Marshal actually said):

But when the people in Goldsberry's apartment didn't open up, that told Wiggins he had probably found the right door. No one at other units had reacted that way, he said.

"Open up. It's the police" does not give officers free reign to do whatever the fark they want.

Screaming heard from inside the apartment, no one answers when the police identify themselves, to me that's a legitimate reason to open the door to check on the safety of those inside.


The police may not create the exigent circumstances, even if they are unknowingly acting in coordination. (Who is to say the weren't doing so knowingly?)

I believe this was recently decided at at least the federal appeals level if not at the Supreme Court. (But since I'm using my phone I'm going to be a poor poster and not provide a citation)

IMHO this guy is lucky to be going home alive. The paramilitant mindset of the police is not only dangerous for us but is also dangerous for them. Sooner or later one of these guys is going to break down the wrong door and be on the losing end of a rifle wielded under a Castle or Stand Your Ground law.
 
2013-07-20 06:22:30 PM

phenn: TuteTibiImperes: She's frankly lucky that she didn't get shot.

THEY are lucky THEY didn't get shot. Her home, bro. Her farking home.


Yup, she's just standing her ground under what she reasonably believes to be armed thugs trying to break in.

/hey, she wasn't far off
//unlike Officer Gunboner
 
2013-07-20 06:22:50 PM
I certainly hope she's going to sue the f--- out of this guy and his department.
 
2013-07-20 06:23:18 PM

Hector Remarkable: you are a puppet: If you're really outraged about this you should kill the police officer they named in the article. Otherwise it's just a bunch of complaining that won't lead to anything.

I haven't even killed ZImmerman yet!


Just saying, if someone started killing all the police involved in these raids it would be really cool, especially if you released little videos after each kill like Mandarin in Iron man 3, or maybe you could give a big speech like Bane (in Banes voice). Maybe I'm just excited with Comicon going on, it's got me in a mood. Got my facial hair looking like Wolverine right now. Couldn't get the hair on my head right though...too curly
 
2013-07-20 06:23:26 PM

edmo: More and more people are packing these days and if cops keep doing this shiat they're going to end up getting shot by people standing their ground to protect themselves and their property. If you're going to treat all citizens as armed and dangerous criminals you can't expect citizens to not treat all intruders as armed and dangerous criminals.


Except the cops will kill you one or another:  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323848804578608040780519 904.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories
 
2013-07-20 06:23:38 PM

edmo: More and more people are packing these days and if cops keep doing this shiat they're going to end up getting shot by people standing their ground to protect themselves and their property. If you're going to treat all citizens as armed and dangerous criminals you can't expect citizens to not treat all intruders as armed and dangerous criminals.


The media will be on their side, though. That's what kind of bothered me with no-knock warrants. The cops can barge into the wrong house, armed to the teeth, and the resident upstairs will be thinking "Somebody broke in!" and get their gun out. The resident thinks a burglar had come in, the cops think the criminal is going to go out with a fight. The resident gets shot apart and the media will treat it like it's the resident's fault.
 
2013-07-20 06:24:25 PM

WizardofToast: vudutek: Remember the good old days of " If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about"?

I think it's become more of "If it's not you in trouble, it's nothing to worry about. The person in trouble probably deserved it."


Oh, by the way, sorry about your border collie pitbull that threatened to attack us, it gave us no choice, it was acting threatening through the bedroom door. Oh, and that fire started by the CS Grenade we threw through your child's window? Not our fault, unforeseen circumstances y'know. Oh, by the way, your child is being taken to CPS, because you didn't provide a clean environment for her, there were toys and dirty clothes on the floor all over her room.

Cops have absolute license to kill pretty much anyone they see, at any time they want. Police are actively sorted for narcissistic and sociopathic personalities. Departments WANT people that would shoot a dog or an old woman or a little kid without stopping to consider the circumstances. They aren't trained to think at all while on the job, they are programmed to react to stimuli, even if it is based purely on an assumption on the officer's part. It doesn't matter, cops are almost never prosecuted for cold-blooded murder in this country. They can chase an unarmed man down the street, dressed as street bums, and shoot him in the back, and they get medals for it.
 
2013-07-20 06:26:41 PM
What they gonna do on the day some innocent home owner shoots multiple cops dead while they are barging in without a warrant and he/she records it all?
 
2013-07-20 06:27:36 PM
Good thing they were only looking for a suspected rapist and not some doper:   http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/drug-war-victim/
 
2013-07-20 06:27:39 PM

Weaver95: thamike: shanrick: Weaver95: I don't think anyone really wants to stop and admit to themselves just how terrified our culture is these days.  one more big terror scare and that might be enough to push our culture over the edge into psychotic paranoia.

words of wisdom.

Meta-paranoia is the best kind of paranoia.

I have friends of mine who believe themselves to be fierce conservatives and believe that government should be extremely limited....and yet they blindly support the war on drugs and the war on terror, believing that the bill of rights is an impediment and that we can trust law enforcement not to abuse it's authority over us.  I personally don't understand their mindset but there you go.


You've described the wingnut branch of my family to a tee, except they're convinced that the proto-fascist surveillance state only started to matter in January 2009.  They were perfectly ducky with it from 2001 until 2008, when they were convinced that the magic rock in the oval office was repelling the tigers.  See, they believe that as long as the right sort of dictator is in charge, everything will be fine--it's only when you get a man without any integrity, morality and ethics in charge that the panopticon suddenly becomes dangerous and evil.  The idea that more than one person can be involved and that, the larger the organization, the easier it becomes for anyone working for that organization to deny that they have any personal responsibility in what that organization DOES, is completely foreign to them, and I've given up trying to explain it to them.  It only sends them into a frothing rage.

They also believe that the Aurora, CO shooting, the Newton Massacre and the Boston Marathon Bombing were false-flag operations.  Crank magnetism in action, y'all.
 
2013-07-20 06:27:47 PM
If Obama had a pack of thugs destroying civil liberty they would look like these gentleman
 
2013-07-20 06:27:49 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I like how the cop thinks that since he didn't shoot her she shouldn't be going to the press

/Christ what an asshole


So all that is protecting us from a serial killer in cops uniform is to trust in the officer's discretion not to shoot you.  The fear that would cause any person to either freeze in place of desperately try to fight to stay alive.   A cop who is cold hearted enough and eager to kill people would find a nice home in SWAT.
 
2013-07-20 06:28:09 PM
According to TFA, she didn't start screaming until she had a farking laser sight on her.  I'd likely scream too.  I work with normal cops every day, and believe me, none of them would try shiat like this.  This is the Marshalls/SWAT-type officers on a power trip, and posters here are right, its going to get them and innocent people killed if this is SOP for them.
 
2013-07-20 06:28:31 PM
In late to remind everyone... welcome to the 4th reich.
 
2013-07-20 06:28:44 PM

Plant Rights Activist: tricycleracer: But when the people in Goldsberry's apartment didn't open up, that told Wiggins he had probably found the right door.

That's some fine police work there.

anyone who runs is a criminal.  Anyone who stands still is a well disciplined criminal.


I was going to click on "funny," but quickly realized it's "sad" how true this is.
 
2013-07-20 06:28:59 PM

Deathfrogg: WizardofToast: vudutek: Remember the good old days of " If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about"?

I think it's become more of "If it's not you in trouble, it's nothing to worry about. The person in trouble probably deserved it."

Oh, by the way, sorry about your border collie pitbull that threatened to attack us, it gave us no choice, it was acting threatening through the bedroom door. Oh, and that fire started by the CS Grenade we threw through your child's window? Not our fault, unforeseen circumstances y'know. Oh, by the way, your child is being taken to CPS, because you didn't provide a clean environment for her, there were toys and dirty clothes on the floor all over her room.

Cops have absolute license to kill pretty much anyone they see, at any time they want. Police are actively sorted for narcissistic and sociopathic personalities. Departments WANT people that would shoot a dog or an old woman or a little kid without stopping to consider the circumstances. They aren't trained to think at all while on the job, they are programmed to react to stimuli, even if it is based purely on an assumption on the officer's part. It doesn't matter, cops are almost never prosecuted for cold-blooded murder in this country. They can chase an unarmed man down the street, dressed as street bums, and shoot him in the back, and they get medals for it.


And the media and people will nitpick whatever the victims did to justify the action. They should have known about all the crime going on in their town! Well they probably did a crime anyway! They must have done something wrong! Cops don't kill good citizens!

There could be found footage of a quad amputee grandmother getting beating into paste by batons and the media would blame her for raising her voice at them when she should have known to respect authority.
 
2013-07-20 06:29:53 PM

Deathfrogg: cops are almost never prosecuted for cold-blooded murder in this country. They can chase an unarmed man down the street, dressed as street bums, and shoot him in the back, and they get medals paid vacation for it.


Feexed. ;-)
 
2013-07-20 06:30:30 PM

TuteTibiImperes: If I'm understanding the timeline of this correctly...


I dunno, "show me your badge" which was responded to by the police etc with essentially "no"? fark them.
 
2013-07-20 06:30:46 PM
Don't hesitate to shoot next time.
 
2013-07-20 06:31:18 PM

Weaver95: I don't think anyone really wants to stop and admit to themselves just how terrified our culture is these days.  one more big terror scare and that might be enough to push our culture over the edge into psychotic paranoia.


Personal finance this term really pushed "serving the wealthy" in that trash book The Millionaire Next door. Kind of strange strategy to push onto a bunch of kids and adults who couldn't think their way out of wet paper bag. The culture of this country is absolutely farked.
 
2013-07-20 06:31:41 PM

See You Next Tuesday: If Fark had a village idiot he would type something about Obama out of the clear blue.


You realize Taxbongo was the commanding S.W.A.T. officer, right?  Or at least one of his clones.  The cloning technology has gotten very good, so it's very hard to tell.
 
2013-07-20 06:32:12 PM
Over the course of my life it seems to me that the general thuggery of good ol boy cops in the south has become the sop model for police actions in the us writ large.
 
2013-07-20 06:33:12 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I like how the cop thinks that since he didn't shoot her she shouldn't be going to the press

/Christ what an asshole


Asshole indeed. She should sue this panty-waist, d*ckless, gutless wonder just for saying that! What a worthless piece of shiat he is!
 
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