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(Hot Air)   Another study shows that the link between fracking and ground water contamination is a myth. Thankfully the Party of Science(tm) has conceded to reality and will stop opposing it, right?   (hotair.com) divider line 125
    More: Unlikely, groundwater, drilling fluids, Western Pennsylvania, shocker, eco, methane, aquifers  
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2502 clicks; posted to Geek » on 20 Jul 2013 at 2:55 PM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-20 03:48:12 PM

slayer199: It's a shame that science has been infected by politics on both sides of the aisle.  I have no opinion on this particular issue because I quite frankly haven't researched it enough.


I like you. Good frame of thought to have.
 
2013-07-20 03:49:03 PM
They've been running a couple of test sites (very) near me in the UK. Had to stop after 2 earthquakes to get a report saying it's OK to carry on. Whoopee!

Would think the densely populated UK is the last place to risk fracking, but the Gov£rnm£nt is k££n to off£r tax inc£ntives.
 
2013-07-20 03:52:45 PM

dr_blasto: Some studies have indicated that areas with a lot of this activity tend to see an increase, sometimes significant, in toxic chemicals in their well water.


Some stuff posted in this thread is bull.

There's a reason why the Sautner's in Dimock aren't getting the press like they used to.
 
2013-07-20 03:54:01 PM
Have the science deniers started burning books yet?
 
2013-07-20 03:55:31 PM

dr_blasto: the EPA backed off and declared a do-over.


A do over? They farking turned tail and ran.
 
2013-07-20 03:56:25 PM

dr_blasto: In some areas, they've found methods to force people to allow drilling.


While anecdotal stories about people's water wells becoming contaminated with methane after fraking starts are not proof, they certainly are interesting correlated accounts, which beg for more study.

WHAT is the likelyhood that so many reported wells had methane problems before fraking and were not reported? My guess is pretty low. People biatch about stuff constantly.
 
2013-07-20 04:02:03 PM

Mrbogey: dr_blasto: Some studies have indicated that areas with a lot of this activity tend to see an increase, sometimes significant, in toxic chemicals in their well water.

Some stuff posted in this thread is bull.

There's a reason why the Sautner's in Dimock aren't getting the press like they used to.


Hmm. Sure, lots of crap floating about for sure. Have a read. Regardless of the potential consequences, the process continues with little resistance. Again, I'd point out that fracking and extraction is seriously jacking up individual property rights. Since when did property rights become less important to the people on the right-of-center?
 
2013-07-20 04:04:44 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: dr_blasto: the EPA backed off and declared a do-over.

A do over? They farking turned tail and ran.


Yup. The jackbooted thugs bravely ran away. Dumped it off on the state. Maybe we can see the report in 2016, but WY isn't known for following through with just about anything.
 
2013-07-20 04:08:24 PM

namatad: dr_blasto: In some areas, they've found methods to force people to allow drilling.

While anecdotal stories about people's water wells becoming contaminated with methane after fraking starts are not proof, they certainly are interesting correlated accounts, which beg for more study.

WHAT is the likelyhood that so many reported wells had methane problems before fraking and were not reported? My guess is pretty low. People biatch about stuff constantly.


We still don't require tests of well integrity and quality prior to opening gas fields. It will always be easy for anyone to claim "it was like that before" without giving any thought. Personally, I think corporations should pay the EPA to do pre-drilling well inspections and tests. They should also have to pay for intermittent tests during extraction to evaluate risks and damage to the citizens of that area.
 
2013-07-20 04:12:41 PM
It would be trivial to add a chemical tracer to fracking fluid that doesn't ever occur in nature. It's inexpensive and doesn't at all effect the performance of the fracking fluid. It would also make it extremely easy to determine if the fracking fluid is causing groundwater contamination or not.

I can't imagine why the fracking industry is so opposed to this.
 
2013-07-20 04:13:42 PM
Oh, look. They do this in the preliminary study. I should try reading sometimes
 
2013-07-20 04:16:49 PM

1000 Ways to Dye: It would be trivial to add a chemical tracer to fracking fluid that doesn't ever occur in nature. It's inexpensive and doesn't at all effect the performance of the fracking fluid. It would also make it extremely easy to determine if the fracking fluid is causing groundwater contamination or not.

I can't imagine why the fracking industry is so opposed to this.


Also, why not just dump the contaminated waste water into our river systems? Wouldn't it be nice if we gave a fark about that too?
 
2013-07-20 04:18:06 PM
Article written by an Erika Johnsen.

She also works for Townhall.com

so....  I'm calling BS.
 
2013-07-20 04:32:35 PM
Penn State did a study about water quality in general in PA. They found that over 1/2 of the wells had some type of problem including natural gas. They also found that people were only getting their wells tested at about a 50% rate. So that leave 1/4 of all wells in PA have problems and have never been tested! So when fracking is being done and people get their wells tested, guess what? 1/4 of them find problems and blame the fracking. Water quality can also change from season to season. Get your damn well-water tested on a regular basis and don't wait til after there's fracking nearby.
Also methane in your well-water is dealt with rather easily by installing a vent system. And guess what? These vent systems have been around for a long time because methane in well-water has been a problem for a long time.
 
2013-07-20 04:38:46 PM
FDA has plenty of reports saying that there's no difference between brand and generic drugs too, but there are a hell of a lot more generic drug recalls than there are brand recalls. Some companies in recent years have had to recall almost everything they made, yet they are still in business and my employer is still buying from them. I'm looking at you Actavis
 
2013-07-20 04:54:00 PM

Pharmdawg: FDA has plenty of reports saying that there's no difference between brand and generic drugs too, but there are a hell of a lot more generic drug recalls than there are brand recalls. Some companies in recent years have had to recall almost everything they made, yet they are still in business and my employer is still buying from them. I'm looking at you Actavis


I take Propranolol  and the Pharmacy has changed manufacturers on me twice in the last year. First it was from Mylan, then Wyeth, and now Breckenridge. Should I be concerned?
 
2013-07-20 05:00:35 PM
Gee one would think that if it were sooooo completely harmless then the drilling industry wouldn't be so eager to exempt themselves from liability in the whole process.  WTF is wrong with these people?  People who think fracking is so completely safe should put their money where their mouth is an get their drinking water from the wells close to these fracking sites. I wonder if they would think it was so farking safe when it's their health on the line.
 
2013-07-20 05:04:18 PM

RexTalionis: From the lab that did the report:


NETL Statement on Reported Fracking Study
July 19,2013, 12:15 p.m.

NETL has been conducting a study to monitor for any signs of groundwater contamination as a result of hydraulic fracturing operations at a site on the Marcellus Shale formation in Pennsylvania. We are still in the early stages of collecting, analyzing, andvalidating data from this site. While nothing of concern has been found thus far, the results are far too preliminary to make any firm claims. We expect a final report on the results by the end of the calendar year.

Contact:Shelley Martin, DOE National Energy Technology Laboratory, 304-285-0228,newsinfo[[nospam-﹫-backwards] image 7x13]lten[* image 7x13]doe[* image 7x13]gov

http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/press/2013/StudyStatement.pdf

But, yeah, let's make firm conclusions without the benefit of the full report.


"Big Science" will likely have already contacted and contaminated the researches by the end of the calendar year. Only now, before the study is complete, can accurate, unskewed conclusions be derived.
 
2013-07-20 05:11:03 PM

Barfmaker: Man whoever wrote that thing sounds like a massive douchebag.


The opening line did not fill me with confidence in his objectivity :

"Despite extreme environmentalists' hysterical pursuit of evidence to conclusively link up ..."

Excuse me, I have to go be hysterical now.
 
2013-07-20 05:16:20 PM

Dimensio: "Big Science" will likely have already contacted and contaminated the researches by the end of the calendar year. Only now, before the study is complete, can accurate, unskewed conclusions be derived.


I'd call you a half-wit but that's about half too much.
 
2013-07-20 05:19:15 PM
You know who I'd like to see doing some fracking...

db2.stb.s-msn.com
 
2013-07-20 05:19:20 PM

Marcus Aurelius: If fracking is so harmless, then why are they not required to disclose what they're pumping down there?


They do.

http://fracfocus.org/
 
2013-07-20 05:33:10 PM

ZeroCorpse: You know who I'd like to see doing some fracking...

[db2.stb.s-msn.com image 598x465]




Everyone had their favorite. Grace Park was mine.
i41.tinypic.com
 
2013-07-20 05:39:42 PM
You would think that if this was true,you would be able to find a real article in a real publication that said this,
It always seems to be ranting editorials like this, though. This asshole doesn't even have a legitimate scientific position - he's just yelling.
 
2013-07-20 05:46:37 PM
When issues like this are politicized, you can't trust either 'side'.

As an independent thinker, it's common sense that fracking causes environmental damage in one form or another.

There is much evidence whether 'scientifically' proving it or not.
 
2013-07-20 05:48:25 PM

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Marcus Aurelius: If fracking is so harmless, then why are they not required to disclose what they're pumping down there?

They do.

http://fracfocus.org/


Oh, well, problem solved then. Let's just see what a random well from Kern County, California is up to.

Ingredients/Chemical Abstract Service Number/Max Ing. Concentration by Additive/Max Ing. Concentration in HF Fluid

Tetrakis(hydroxymethyl)phosphonium 55566-30-8 0.01300% 0.00281%
sulfate
Non-crystalline silica 7631-86-9 0.01300% 0.00281%
Dioctyl sulfosuccinate sodium salt Proprietary 0.02349% 0.00508%
Alkylalcohol ethoxylated Proprietary 0.02349% 0.00508%
Oxyalkylated Alcohol (1) Proprietary 0.02349% 0.00508%

Methanol 67-56-1 0.03229% 0.00699%
Aliphatic co-polymer Proprietary 0.06242% 0.01350%
Zirconium dichloride oxide 7699-43-6 0.10073% 0.02180%
Polyethylene glycol monohexyl ether 31726-34-8 0.11696% 0.02531%
Potassium hydroxide 1310-58-3 0.15029% 0.03252%
2,2`,2"-nitrilotriethanol 102-71-6 0.25645% 0.05549%
Diammonium peroxidisulphate 7727-54-0 0.26953% 0.05832%
Aliphatic polyol Proprietary 0.34757% 0.07520%
Oxyalkylated Alcohol (2) Proprietary 0.37241% 0.08058%

Propan-2-ol 67-63-0 0.51334% 0.11107%
Carbohydrate polymer Proprietary 0.80058% 0.17322%
Phenolic resin 9003-35-4 2.34114% 0.50655%
Crystalline silica 14808-60-7 97.60714% 21.11905%

I'm sure all of the proprietary stuff is just fine.
 
2013-07-20 05:50:00 PM
All of this loose talk about ad water, feh.
If these people out in the boondocks would get their water from city and town supplies, none of this would be a problem now, wouldn't it?

/I keed. The frackers are thumping the ground in which my very ancestors are buried in Pennsylvania and it isn't pretty. Tank trucks everywhere. Oil field trash lurking. One generation of jobs exchanged for multiple generations of poisoned water. Totally worth it, right? So a bunch of oil field trash can make some money and then go home to Texas or Oklahoma and die of cancer.
//Real grafitti in the restroom of a quickie mart in Towanda, Pa.: "Fark, fight, and lay pipe."
///Also, "Rebel trash go home."
 
2013-07-20 06:14:16 PM
No, it's a total myth... we should totally let the oil companies keep pumping secret chemicals that they don't need to disclose into the ground... and the water has always been able to catch fire... sure, subby.
 
2013-07-20 06:23:30 PM

rumpelstiltskin: AgentKGB: Is that why a number of communities in Alberta have ground water you can burn?

That's just Canada. Things are weird up there. They even put gravy on their French fires.


They have burning water on the western slope of Colorado too... there's benzene in the water now... there didn't used to be... but the frackers say it's totally unrelated to all the benzene they pumped into the ground.
 
2013-07-20 06:24:52 PM
Oddly, it's science saying "fracking is harmful" and business saying "fracking is beneficial." Guess which way the politicians went?

Yeah, the same way they went on other environmental issues - they're on the side that pays them the most. Remember, this is pretty much how the arguments on climate change went, too, until the results were too obvious to ignore or deny.
 
2013-07-20 06:32:10 PM

firefly212: They have burning water on the western slope of Colorado too... there's benzene in the water now... there didn't used to be... but the frackers say it's totally unrelated to all the benzene they pumped into the ground.


Ooo let me try. The state of North Pennsylvania was completely destroyed in 1996 by fracking. The industry then paid off everyone to shut up about it.

I love this "Make up facts" game you started.
 
2013-07-20 06:34:56 PM

MarkEC: Pharmdawg: FDA has plenty of reports saying that there's no difference between brand and generic drugs too, but there are a hell of a lot more generic drug recalls than there are brand recalls. Some companies in recent years have had to recall almost everything they made, yet they are still in business and my employer is still buying from them. I'm looking at you Actavis

I take Propranolol  and the Pharmacy has changed manufacturers on me twice in the last year. First it was from Mylan, then Wyeth, and now Breckenridge. Should I be concerned?


I switched to brand name Thyroid replacement. The different generics are absorbed differently (different fillers) and the dosage varies too much for proper titration.

Like everything in the universe, your mileage may vary.
 
2013-07-20 06:40:36 PM

Mrbogey: firefly212: They have burning water on the western slope of Colorado too... there's benzene in the water now... there didn't used to be... but the frackers say it's totally unrelated to all the benzene they pumped into the ground.

Ooo let me try. The state of North Pennsylvania was completely destroyed in 1996 by fracking. The industry then paid off everyone to shut up about it.

I love this "Make up facts" game you started.


Yes it is perfectly safe. Colorado has had no problems with fracking. Do you work for the oil/gas industry? You sure seem to hate people talking about the problems it has.
 
2013-07-20 06:49:12 PM

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Marcus Aurelius: If fracking is so harmless, then why are they not required to disclose what they're pumping down there?

They do.

http://fracfocus.org/


http://fracfocus.org/hydraulic-fracturing-how-it-works/drilling-risk s- safeguards 

You know, the more I read about this crap, the more I think that the pollution is all on the surface.
Sure, there is a chance that the well itself leaks, but it is much more likely that they are spilling waste water on the surface which is seeping into the ground water.

(yes, I know, that would not account for the methane in the water ...)
 
2013-07-20 06:51:30 PM

Carth: Yes it is perfectly safe. Colorado has had no problems with fracking. Do you work for the oil/gas industry? You sure seem to hate people talking about the problems it has.


Easy enough to fix right?
Billion dollars per company, put into escrow and controlled by the STATE EPA.
Used to properly clean up accidents.
Refilled to a billion whenever it falls to 500 million.

TADA
clean up problem solved.

/wait, that would cut into corporate profits? and require only large and well funded fraking? nevermind
 
2013-07-20 07:23:06 PM

namatad: Prank Call of Cthulhu: Marcus Aurelius: If fracking is so harmless, then why are they not required to disclose what they're pumping down there?

They do.

http://fracfocus.org/

http://fracfocus.org/hydraulic-fracturing-how-it-works/drilling-risk s- safeguards 

You know, the more I read about this crap, the more I think that the pollution is all on the surface.
Sure, there is a chance that the well itself leaks, but it is much more likely that they are spilling waste water on the surface which is seeping into the ground water.

(yes, I know, that would not account for the methane in the water ...)


As I pointed out upthread, people aren't getting their water tested on a regular basis as they should. The level of methane can vary greatly depending on aquifer replenishment due to weather. Less rain, lower aquifers, more methane seeping in, completely independent of fracking or mining in the area. A guy I met from Range Resources told me they are offering people free well testing before and after the fracking in PA so people know their water quality is the same.
 
2013-07-20 07:25:56 PM

namatad: Carth: Yes it is perfectly safe. Colorado has had no problems with fracking. Do you work for the oil/gas industry? You sure seem to hate people talking about the problems it has.

Easy enough to fix right?
Billion dollars per company, put into escrow and controlled by the STATE EPA.
Used to properly clean up accidents.
Refilled to a billion whenever it falls to 500 million.

TADA
clean up problem solved.

/wait, that would cut into corporate profits? and require only large and well funded fraking? nevermind


SOSHUHLIZM!
 
2013-07-20 08:13:09 PM
Engineer designing drilling equipment to rape your lands, getting a kick, etc

/thinking about taking a field position for a couple years to pay off my student loans, buy house, new car, then come back to the office
//$$$
 
2013-07-20 08:14:30 PM

Target Builder: NewportBarGuy: Too many people and groups want energy independence. Fracking will continue and we'll just see what that leads to 10-20 years from now.

Personally, I'm not a fan. But, I highly doubt the process will be stopped successfully with the number of jobs and the royalties/taxes and local spending they promise communities and states.

the thing is... Domestic oil extraction won't lead to energy independence unless the oil industry is nationalized, which will never happen.


You think the federal government would do a better job at extraction than the present public corporations?
 
2013-07-20 08:16:44 PM
Remember when scientific analyses used to account for things?  Those were the days.
 
2013-07-20 08:33:34 PM

gameshowhost: Remember when scientific analyses used to account for things?  Those were the days.


Like when studies were inconclusive for proof between smoking and cancer? Yep, those were the days...
 
2013-07-20 09:07:08 PM

Lord Jubjub: Target Builder: NewportBarGuy: Too many people and groups want energy independence. Fracking will continue and we'll just see what that leads to 10-20 years from now.

Personally, I'm not a fan. But, I highly doubt the process will be stopped successfully with the number of jobs and the royalties/taxes and local spending they promise communities and states.

the thing is... Domestic oil extraction won't lead to energy independence unless the oil industry is nationalized, which will never happen.

You think the federal government would do a better job at extraction than the present public corporations?


Better? No output would be way down. But since the government wouldn't be profit seeking, wouldn't have to pay taxes and couldn't sell the oil on the global market it would likely be cheaper for the US.
 
2013-07-20 09:11:06 PM
What's really awesome is that some of those areas have had conventional drilling for something like 100 years, most of those years unregulated. Shockingly enough, those areas are still fairly polluted.
 
2013-07-20 09:14:01 PM

starsrift: gameshowhost: Remember when scientific analyses used to account for things?  Those were the days.

Like when studies were inconclusive for proof between smoking and cancer? Yep, those were the days...


I'M WIF U THER, BRO
 
2013-07-20 09:14:48 PM

Mrbogey: NeedlesslyCanadian: http://hotair.com/about/

Oh yeah. Definitely sounds like a reputable group of people who most assuredly have their heads firmly in reality.

Is it your belief that Hot Air did the scientific study? Perhaps you ought to read a bit more.


Well the study in question is not completed and has not made a conclusion, so perhaps you should read more yourself...beyond the aforementioned moron website. You dumbass.
 
2013-07-20 09:20:29 PM
Where is a whistleblower when you need one? I can't believe someone hasn't gotten their hands on whatever they use during fracking to be able to test it.
 
2013-07-20 09:29:17 PM

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Marcus Aurelius: If fracking is so harmless, then why are they not required to disclose what they're pumping down there?

They do.

http://fracfocus.org/


From the website you listed:

"  Although there are dozens to hundreds of chemicals which could be used as additives, there are a limited number which are routinely used in hydraulic fracturing.  The following is a list of the chemicals used most often "

Also known as "Here's a handpicked list of chemicals we can claim are reasonable and low-risk.  The rest are 'rarely' used and 'proprietary'".

If you won't disclose the exact mix you use, with exact ratios, then don't bother saying you are giving out data, as it's lying by omission.
 
2013-07-20 09:34:07 PM

Carth: Mrbogey: firefly212: They have burning water on the western slope of Colorado too... there's benzene in the water now... there didn't used to be... but the frackers say it's totally unrelated to all the benzene they pumped into the ground.

Ooo let me try. The state of North Pennsylvania was completely destroyed in 1996 by fracking. The industry then paid off everyone to shut up about it.

I love this "Make up facts" game you started.

Yes it is perfectly safe. Colorado has had no problems with fracking. Do you work for the oil/gas industry? You sure seem to hate people talking about the problems it has.


Right, you dishonestly state the case and think you're right. There was a spill into a river that was completely separate from fracking. That's like saying tsunami's cause radioactive fallout in Japan or flights out of Boston are responsible for the WTC building collapsing.

I hate it when morons spout off with passionate abandon things that are completely wrong. Ideally, if you stopped saying things that were wrong I wouldn't have a reason to post about fracking.
 
2013-07-20 09:42:29 PM

Mrbogey: Carth: Mrbogey: firefly212: They have burning water on the western slope of Colorado too... there's benzene in the water now... there didn't used to be... but the frackers say it's totally unrelated to all the benzene they pumped into the ground.

Ooo let me try. The state of North Pennsylvania was completely destroyed in 1996 by fracking. The industry then paid off everyone to shut up about it.

I love this "Make up facts" game you started.

Yes it is perfectly safe. Colorado has had no problems with fracking. Do you work for the oil/gas industry? You sure seem to hate people talking about the problems it has.

Right, you dishonestly state the case and think you're right. There was a spill into a river that was completely separate from fracking. That's like saying tsunami's cause radioactive fallout in Japan or flights out of Boston are responsible for the WTC building collapsing.

I hate it when morons spout off with passionate abandon things that are completely wrong. Ideally, if you stopped saying things that were wrong I wouldn't have a reason to post about fracking.


When coal plants accidentally dump tons and tons of coal ash, laden with heavy metals, that has nothing to do with the process of power generation, but it is a significant risk of coal power generation. Let's not do anything about anything and use the "overzealous staffer" type arguments though. What could go wrong?
 
2013-07-20 09:43:14 PM

Mrbogey: Carth: Mrbogey: firefly212: They have burning water on the western slope of Colorado too... there's benzene in the water now... there didn't used to be... but the frackers say it's totally unrelated to all the benzene they pumped into the ground.

Ooo let me try. The state of North Pennsylvania was completely destroyed in 1996 by fracking. The industry then paid off everyone to shut up about it.

I love this "Make up facts" game you started.

Yes it is perfectly safe. Colorado has had no problems with fracking. Do you work for the oil/gas industry? You sure seem to hate people talking about the problems it has.

Right, you dishonestly state the case and think you're right. There was a spill into a river that was completely separate from fracking. That's like saying tsunami's cause radioactive fallout in Japan or flights out of Boston are responsible for the WTC building collapsing.

I hate it when morons spout off with passionate abandon things that are completely wrong. Ideally, if you stopped saying things that were wrong I wouldn't have a reason to post about fracking.


So you're saying the spill would have occurred if there was no fracking in the state of CO?

I guess the spill relating to fracking in PA is just another vicious lie?

Yup, nothing can go wrong when fracking, I mean it is perfectly safe right?

But by all means lets rush and frack as quickly as possible before we have time to study what will happen 10-15 years.
 
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