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(Boston Herald)   Massachusetts officials put on their frowns and confess they'll have to raise taxes again to pay for the Big Dig again   (bostonherald.com) divider line 64
    More: Obvious, Big Dig, Massachusetts, O'Neill, Federal Highway Administration  
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7017 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Jul 2013 at 3:39 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



64 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-07-20 03:44:56 PM  
You got your  Marathon bombing, you got your crazy killer aaron Hernandez, you got your leaky tunnel, you got Tebow on the Patriots, you got to see Chicago whip the bruins asses and now you get higher taxes to pay for crap you already overpaid for. Its been a busy summer in Boston so far.
 
2013-07-20 03:45:04 PM  
Why so serious?
It's not like its coming out of your pocket.
 
2013-07-20 03:46:04 PM  
Boston - run by democrats.  Detroit - run by democrats.  The same thing is going to happen to boston that is happening to detroit.  People will leave and they will run out of other people's money.
 
2013-07-20 03:48:36 PM  
Paraphrase FTA..It is outrageous that the people who use the system should be charged more.
 
2013-07-20 03:49:54 PM  
Can't they starve poor people?
 
2013-07-20 03:51:23 PM  

SlothB77: The same thing is going to happen to boston that is happening to detroit.  People will leave and they will run out of other people's money.


Even for you this is idiotic.

/Big Dig - worth it
 
2013-07-20 03:55:38 PM  

Zulu_as_Kono: SlothB77: The same thing is going to happen to boston that is happening to detroit.  People will leave and they will run out of other people's money.

Even for you this is idiotic.

/Big Dig - worth it


Damn straight.

/Wasn't Rmoney supposed to fix the leaks for us?
 
2013-07-20 03:55:58 PM  
The state's top transportation official said yesterday that Big Dig tunnels were never designed to be leak-proof - despite past promises of dry roadways years ago - and tax- and toll-payers have no choice but to pony up to fix them.

So they promised dry roads as long as it doesn't rain?
 
2013-07-20 03:56:28 PM  

johnryan51: Can't they starve poor people?


No the bastards will just steal food if you try.
 
2013-07-20 03:58:49 PM  

mikaloyd: You got your  Marathon bombing, you got your crazy killer aaron Hernandez, you got your leaky tunnel, you got Tebow on the Patriots, you got to see Chicago whip the bruins asses and now you get higher taxes to pay for crap you already overpaid for. Its been a busy summer in Boston so far.


Ummmm, you and I overpaid for The Big Dig, too.  It was heavily funded by federal funds.  Thank Teddy Kennedy.

In other news, for every proposed road project by me they say the state of Illinois is broke so it has to be a tollway, while there are no tollways inside Crook County.
 
2013-07-20 03:58:58 PM  
It is a 'North American' thing to enjoy a service [social, infrastructure, otherwise] but biatch like a dog in heat over the prospect of PAYING for it.

It's a consumption tax, you brainless morans. If you don't want to pay that tax, don't drive on the toll roads.
 
2013-07-20 04:00:09 PM  

mikaloyd: You got your  Marathon bombing, you got your crazy killer aaron Hernandez, you got your leaky tunnel, you got Tebow on the Patriots, you got to see Chicago whip the bruins asses and now you get higher taxes to pay for crap you already overpaid for. Its been a busy summer in Boston so far.


You're right. We need tolls on the Big dig so that the people who use it pay for it.

Oh wait. That's against the LAW in MA. Yep. There's a law forbidding the state from erecting a toll gate anyplace new.

/because they're so into taking other people's money.
 
2013-07-20 04:09:28 PM  

Mach10: It is a 'North American' thing to enjoy a service [social, infrastructure, otherwise] but biatch like a dog in heat over the prospect of PAYING for it.

It's a consumption tax, you brainless morans. If you don't want to pay that tax, don't drive on the toll roads.


The big dig is paid for by tolls, you say? Are you quite certain?
 
2013-07-20 04:09:37 PM  
But did they rescue the archeologists from the Romulans?

/obscure?

//likely not.
 
2013-07-20 04:10:40 PM  

SlothB77: Boston - run by democrats.  Detroit - run by democrats.  The same thing is going to happen to boston that is happening to detroit.  People will leave and they will run out of other people's money.


Actually, it's pretty damn good here. Sure our transportation sucks but it's always sucked. Hopefully we'll fix that soon enough to keep up with the boom we're seeing. People actually want to live here because we're doing that well.

But please, go on with your simplistic view of the world. Curious where you may be from.

/not sure why I'm replying to this troll
 
2013-07-20 04:12:16 PM  

rubi_con_man: Oh wait. That's against the LAW in MA. Yep. There's a law forbidding the state from erecting a toll gate anyplace new.

/because they're so into taking other people's money.


Is there a law against a city erecting toll gates?
 
2013-07-20 04:17:23 PM  
Taxpayers should demand a refund for this substandard work. If I buy something, and it's defective, I return it.
Or the city of Boston and the state of Massachusetts should be forced to find the money elsewhere. No reason to burden taxpayers further with this failed project and its large price tag. When the A/C in my home dies, I don't ask my neighbors for money. I have to pull money from elsewhere in order to pay for it.
 
2013-07-20 04:17:34 PM  
... again.
 
2013-07-20 04:23:53 PM  
My question is why weren't the construction companies made to buy a bond for future fixes?
 
2013-07-20 04:24:07 PM  

SlothB77: Boston - run by democrats.  Detroit - run by democrats.  The same thing is going to happen to boston that is happening to detroit.  People will leave and they will run out of other people's money.


You left out Chicago, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Compton .. etc etc
 
2013-07-20 04:24:27 PM  

NeoKhan: Mach10: It is a 'North American' thing to enjoy a service [social, infrastructure, otherwise] but biatch like a dog in heat over the prospect of PAYING for it.

It's a consumption tax, you brainless morans. If you don't want to pay that tax, don't drive on the toll roads.

The big dig is paid for by tolls, you say? Are you quite certain?


Partially, yes.  The tolls on the tunnels and eastern part of the pike go to the Big Dig since they were increased a few years ago. The pike was supposed to go toll-free a few years ago, but kept them up.  While there are toll booths in the western part of the state, there are no tolls from exit 1 through exit 6 (though this may change).  The MBTA is in financial trouble partially since much of the debt from the Big Dig was dropped in their lap.
 
2013-07-20 04:25:25 PM  

DubyaHater: Taxpayers should demand a refund for this substandard work. If I buy something, and it's defective, I return it.
Or the city of Boston and the state of Massachusetts should be forced to find the money elsewhere. No reason to burden taxpayers further with this failed project and its large price tag. When the A/C in my home dies, I don't ask my neighbors for money. I have to pull money from elsewhere in order to pay for it.


I'll bet you think we should also balance our national debt like you do your checkbook.

/Macro and Microeconomics are not comparable so stop it.
 
2013-07-20 04:29:47 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: SlothB77: Boston - run by democrats.  Detroit - run by democrats.  The same thing is going to happen to boston that is happening to detroit.  People will leave and they will run out of other people's money.

You left out Chicago, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Compton .. etc etc


People are clearly leaving those cities in droves aren't th..oh, wait.
 
2013-07-20 04:33:06 PM  

mrlewish: My question is why weren't the construction companies made to buy a bond for future fixes?


Mine too.

My company builds little farking grocery stores and we're on the hook for warranty issues for up to 20 years...

Why are the contractors not paying for this?
 
2013-07-20 04:35:04 PM  
NeoKhan:
The big dig is paid for by tolls, you say? Are you quite certain?

No, but the maintenance is. The initial outlay would be a withdrawal from the public purse, but the idea of toll roads/bridges is to offset the cost of the same via usage fees. If it's a money loser--but an overall time-saver, the logical conclusion is that people aren't being billed enough for it.
 
2013-07-20 04:35:15 PM  
mrlewish
"My question is why weren't the construction companies made to buy a bond for future fixes? "

Because they bought off enough politicians. It is the norm here to pay top dollar for marginal work. Anyone in MA with an IQ higher than room temperature knew this thing was screwed up from beginning to end.
 
2013-07-20 04:44:19 PM  
You said again again.
 
2013-07-20 04:47:33 PM  

DubyaHater: Taxpayers should demand a refund for this substandard work. If I buy something, and it's defective, I return it.


How can I tell you've never been involved with large contracts?  A large construction project isn't like ordering food at a restaurant where you can make them take it back to the kitchen. I remember reading a blurb on a guy that was brought in to run a pallet company, he said dealing with customer complaints was an eye opener.  You'd ship a customer a 1000 pallets and maybe some of them had problems, the customer is mad, it costs them money, you can't just pull all the pallets back, of refund their money, because you don't have it.

Constructions nasty because it's real money, and if something goes wrong it costs even more, and the suppliers and contractors usually don't have much in the way of cash reserves, and you're paying them no matter.  Go ahead fine the contractor $1,000,000, where are they going to get the money? By charging you more on the next contract, probably plus interest.

There aren't simple fixes, because it's a mess and always will be a mess.
 
2013-07-20 04:56:46 PM  
because the Federal Highway Administration, who oversees the $460 million Big Dig trust fund, refused to cover the costs.

Mmmmm, how about the grafting bastards that did the crappy job in the first place . . . or am I living with Unicorns and Rainbow's again?
Really, I  don't know. They might all be dead - you know, "Whitey" and all that sort of "stuff".
 
2013-07-20 05:00:12 PM  

enry: The tolls on the tunnels and eastern part of the pike go to the Big Dig since they were increased a few years ago. The pike was supposed to go toll-free a few years ago, but kept them up.  While there are toll booths in the western part of the state, there are no tolls from exit 1 through exit 6 (though this may change).  The MBTA is in financial trouble partially since much of the debt from the Big Dig was dropped in their lap.


Can you say, "Nevah?" The Illinois tollways were sold to taxpayers in 1950s as being temporary toll roads to be freeways once the bonds were paid in 20-25 years.

Funny things:  Most of the tolls collected go to collecting tolls.
There's always a tollway rebuild needed.
There's always another vitally needed tollroad that the toll trust fund will pay for.
There are hundreds of employees and a placial Toll Authority HQ with $millions in furnishings and connected $taff to pay for.

The bonds have not been paid off.  We have to offer highest returns to sell the bonds, ya know?

The tolls went from 25 cents to $1 and more.

Not a single tollroad has become a freeway.  Nevah happen.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-07-20 05:02:14 PM  
It's a floor wax and a dessert topping.

The Big Dig is funded in part by tolls. The Big Dig is toll free except for the Ted Williams tunnel. Massachusetts has people living west of Boston subsidize the ride into Boston from north and south. You pay to drive between Weston and Allston on I-90. You do not pay any additional toll to drive from Allston to I-93, or on I-93 itself.

This arrangement was approved by the state supreme court last year.
 
2013-07-20 05:03:32 PM  

gibbon1: Constructions nasty because it's real money, and if something goes wrong it costs even more, and the suppliers and contractors usually don't have much in the way of cash reserves, and you're paying them no matter. Go ahead fine the contractor $1,000,000, where are they going to get the money? By charging you more on the next contract, probably plus interest.


You know how I can tell you don't know anything about large scale construction?

Pro tip: See bolded parts above.
 
2013-07-20 05:12:37 PM  

SN1987a goes boom: /Macro and Microeconomics are not comparable so stop it.


Why not? A household budget is basically arithmetic and no-one says that the laws of mathematics change as you make things larger, any more than the laws of physics change as you make things larger.

And if you think they're different, what's the point at which something that behaves in a certain way in microeconomics stops behaving that way?
 
2013-07-20 05:22:08 PM  

farkeruk: SN1987a goes boom: /Macro and Microeconomics are not comparable so stop it.

Why not? A household budget is basically arithmetic and no-one says that the laws of mathematics change as you make things larger, any more than the laws of physics change as you make things larger.

And if you think they're different, what's the point at which something that behaves in a certain way in microeconomics stops behaving that way?


You should stay the hell away from quantum physics for sure, if macro/micro bothers you.
 
2013-07-20 05:26:12 PM  
Damn it feels good to live in a red state.
 
2013-07-20 05:28:09 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: Damn it feels good to live in a red state.


Is it the stupidity you like most, or the racism?
 
2013-07-20 05:31:24 PM  

ghare: Smeggy Smurf: Damn it feels good to live in a red state.

Is it the stupidity you like most, or the racism?


Says the guy from Florida.
 
2013-07-20 05:43:19 PM  
Is this one of those tunnels that goes under a large body of water? Because those are pretty damned stupid. Water is merciless. You cannot defeat water. It will always win in the end.
 
2013-07-20 05:46:46 PM  
Normally I would ask what Ted Kennedy would do but then I remembered that he really wasn't good with anything that combined autos and water.
 
2013-07-20 05:47:35 PM  
here to help

"Is this one of those tunnels that goes under a large body of water? Because those are pretty damned stupid. Water is merciless. You cannot defeat water. It will always win in the end."
Some tunnels last longer than others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tunnel
 
2013-07-20 06:15:07 PM  
I wondered where the construction crew of the Zilwaukee Bridge went to, now I know they went to Boston.  If you fail at bridges, try tunnels.
 
2013-07-20 06:20:02 PM  

SlothB77: Boston - run by democrats.  Detroit - run by democrats.  The same thing is going to happen to boston that is happening to detroit.  People will leave and they will run out of other people's money.


Nah, we've been through the West End getting a concrete makeover. Can't see which, if any, neighborhoods going the "blocks and blocks of abandoned houses" route.
 
2013-07-20 06:22:03 PM  

SlothB77: Boston - run by democrats.  Detroit - run by democrats.  The same thing is going to happen to boston that is happening to detroit.  People will leave and they will run out of other people's money.


I'd argue with you but since only Democrats may use the tunnel and all the contracts went to companies staffed purely by liberals, what can I say?
 
2013-07-20 06:28:57 PM  

lack of warmth: I wondered where the construction crew of the Zilwaukee Bridge went to, now I know they went to Boston.  If you fail at bridges, try tunnels.


I thought that crew built this:

upload.wikimedia.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harmon

/still one of my favorite construction fark-up stories.
 
2013-07-20 06:50:02 PM  

SlothB77: People will leave


I'll just point, laugh, and leave this here.

Boston population now growing at its fastest pace in years.

/man, this guy is an ijjit
 
2013-07-20 07:02:52 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: lack of warmth: I wondered where the construction crew of the Zilwaukee Bridge went to, now I know they went to Boston.  If you fail at bridges, try tunnels.

I thought that crew built this:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x330]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harmon

/still one of my favorite construction fark-up stories.


Paradise, NV should allow it to be sold then immediately condemn the Harmon making it an even more waste of money.  The new owner will sue the city and win, forcing the city to buy the Harmon and later have to demolish it.  That is what Flint did with their biggest non structurally safe building, and Genesee Tower is coming down next month, I think.  It was schedule to come down in two weeks, but of course delays.  They are going to use the space for the new Flint's Farmers Market parking.

/Not kidding.
//of course city officials are excited
 
2013-07-20 07:27:12 PM  
I lived in Boston during the height of construction on the Big Dig and now live near Seattle.  I find it hilarious when they talk of building a tunnel to replace the Alaska Way Viaduct.  It's not that it doesn't need to be replaced, it's going to come down on it's own because of damage from the earthquake in 2001, but people who seem to think that any project like that is going to come close to the proposed budget is delusional.  Just look at what happened in Boston and you're going to see about the same thing happen here.
 
2013-07-20 07:48:41 PM  

netringer: Not a single tollroad has become a freeway. Nevah happen.


It did eventually happen with the Coquihalla highway in Canada. Several years after the original promise, but better late than never.
 
2013-07-20 08:03:45 PM  
Car pool?  Can't be bothered.  Buses?  Trains?  zOMG they'll bring Those People into our neighborhood!  Nope, gotta be roads, roads and Moar Roads!
 
2013-07-20 08:15:04 PM  

SN1987a goes boom: DubyaHater: Taxpayers should demand a refund for this substandard work. If I buy something, and it's defective, I return it.
Or the city of Boston and the state of Massachusetts should be forced to find the money elsewhere. No reason to burden taxpayers further with this failed project and its large price tag. When the A/C in my home dies, I don't ask my neighbors for money. I have to pull money from elsewhere in order to pay for it.

I'll bet you think we should also balance our national debt like you do your checkbook.

/Macro and Microeconomics are not comparable so stop it.


It'd be interesting, for one year or a few, to have a balance sheet for every American. What you pay in taxes v. what you consume in government services. Do it for corporations as well. Whether anything is made of it is up in the air, but I'd just like to see what the average case is for Americans.

As for the "Big Dig"... I'm from Kansas City, where the highways were done right the first time, so I don't care.
 
2013-07-20 08:34:06 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: You know how I can tell you don't know anything about large scale construction?

Pro tip: See bolded parts above.


I'm not gibbon and don't work large scale construction and fully admit I don't really have the vaguest idea.  I'm going to call your post ignorant unless you pony up more information.  Because I'm curious.
 
2013-07-20 09:05:48 PM  

Marine1: SN1987a goes boom: DubyaHater: Taxpayers should demand a refund for this substandard work. If I buy something, and it's defective, I return it.
Or the city of Boston and the state of Massachusetts should be forced to find the money elsewhere. No reason to burden taxpayers further with this failed project and its large price tag. When the A/C in my home dies, I don't ask my neighbors for money. I have to pull money from elsewhere in order to pay for it.

I'll bet you think we should also balance our national debt like you do your checkbook.

/Macro and Microeconomics are not comparable so stop it.

It'd be interesting, for one year or a few, to have a balance sheet for every American. What you pay in taxes v. what you consume in government services. Do it for corporations as well. Whether anything is made of it is up in the air, but I'd just like to see what the average case is for Americans.

As for the "Big Dig"... I'm from Kansas City, where the highways were done right the first time, so I don't care.


You have to admit the highways in KC are much simpler, less overburdened, and most importantly less underground. A regular surface highway will deteriorate, but won't collapse. You can use it forever, as long as you're ok with gradually decreasing road quality. Look at the Berlinka in Poland. Built by Hitler, unmaintained in sections, still in use.
 
2013-07-20 09:09:11 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: mrlewish: My question is why weren't the construction companies made to buy a bond for future fixes?

Why are the contractors not paying for this?


here to help:. Water is merciless. You cannot defeat water. It will always win in the end.

You pay an engineer to say this in court. You win. Well, your bonding company wins and doesn't ruin you.
 
2013-07-20 09:37:32 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: lack of warmth: I wondered where the construction crew of the Zilwaukee Bridge went to, now I know they went to Boston.  If you fail at bridges, try tunnels.

I thought that crew built this:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harmon

/still one of my favorite construction fark-up stories.


The plywood monolith of the 70's, Boston's John Hancock Tower, laughs in its general direction.
 
2013-07-20 10:25:53 PM  
With economic stimulus like that, our economy should be roaring in no time. Think of all the jobs.
 
2013-07-20 10:57:11 PM  

Ivo Shandor: netringer: Not a single tollroad has become a freeway. Nevah happen.

It did eventually happen with the Coquihalla highway in Canada. Several years after the original promise, but better late than never.


Dallas Ft. Worth Turnpike is another that became a free highway.

From Wiki...

On August 27, 1957 the highway was open to traffic, but the official opening came a week later on September 5. The turnpike's presence stimulated growth in Grand Prairie and facilitated construction of Six Flags Over Texas. On December 31, 1977, the bonds were paid off and the freeway was handed over to the state Department of Transportation, toll collection ceased, and the tollbooths were removed during the following week.
 
2013-07-20 11:55:44 PM  

mrlewish: My question is why weren't the construction companies made to buy a bond for future fixes?


The independent oversight board that was supposed to take care of these things was disbanded by Gob. Celluci (R) as a cost-cutting measure. Seriously.

enry: The MBTA is in financial trouble partially since much of the debt from the Big Dig was dropped in their lap.


The T is in financial trouble almost entirely because of the expansions of the commuter rail.
 
2013-07-21 12:21:09 AM  

Marine1: As for the "Big Dig"... I'm from Kansas City, where the highways were done right the first time, so I don't care.


Got a lot of tunnels going under harbors in KC?  How about roadways running through 200yo fill dumped into that harbor when they were making more land?

It's easy to criticize the Big Dig, and a lot of the construction got f*cked up - and as we all know, construction never gets f*cked up anywhere else - but as a feat of engineering it's pretty amazing. Especially considering that the city stayed open for business the whole time.

Here's what they had to do just to build the connector from the end of the existing Pike to the Ted Williams Tunnel:

- Freeze the soil under the tracks at South Station, so they could excavate without disrupting the 12-14 tracks of commuter rail and Amtrak above
- Blast through a giant hunk of protruding bedrock that was blocking the path under Ft. Point Channel
- Somewhere around here they had to go above the twin tubes of the Red Line subway while still being underground
- Pass next to and under the largest Gillette factory in America

The tunnel here was built in sections of "boxes" that were fed into place using something called "tunnel jacking" - pushed into place with gigantic hydraulic rams.

After all that it was a basic cut and cover job.

How about the slurry-wall technique they used to build a 6-8 lane highway underground beneath an existing elevated 4-6 lane Interstate? Or how oddly proud some of us are to be home to the world's largest asymmetrical cable-stay bridge (which itself is the result of some marvelously creative traffic flow planning)?

/hats off to Fred Salvucci
//finger raised to Weld, Cellucci, and Swift
 
2013-07-21 01:07:16 AM  

DubyaHater: Taxpayers should demand a refund for this substandard work. If I buy something, and it's defective, I return it.
Or the city of Boston and the state of Massachusetts should be forced to find the money elsewhere. No reason to burden taxpayers further with this failed project and its large price tag. When the A/C in my home dies, I don't ask my neighbors for money. I have to pull money from elsewhere in order to pay for it.


The problem is, since it's the gov't it's still your money.

 So sure, they could pull money out of the local schools, libraries, or firefighters, but how would that help?

 Nope, the one who should pony up is the guy who built the thing and promised it would be dry. He was paid to do a job and if the job isn't done, neither is he.
 
2013-07-21 02:20:38 AM  
Make sure you thank Obama for refusing to use that trust fund for what it was set up for. You can thank him at the 2014 ballot box by firing all his friends.
 
2013-07-21 02:46:28 AM  

Mach10: It is a 'North American' thing to enjoy a service [social, infrastructure, otherwise] but biatch like a dog in heat over the prospect of PAYING for it.

It's a consumption tax, you brainless morans. If you don't want to pay that tax, don't drive on the toll roads.


Or don't live in Boston or preferably Massachusetts. Personally, I'm choosing that alternative.
 
2013-07-21 06:37:51 AM  
The toll booths were removed on the Niagara section of the thruway at Buffalo NY. Katherine Hocul had a lot to do with that...a Democrat.
 
2013-07-21 12:39:17 PM  

kazikian: Marine1: SN1987a goes boom: DubyaHater: Taxpayers should demand a refund for this substandard work. If I buy something, and it's defective, I return it.
Or the city of Boston and the state of Massachusetts should be forced to find the money elsewhere. No reason to burden taxpayers further with this failed project and its large price tag. When the A/C in my home dies, I don't ask my neighbors for money. I have to pull money from elsewhere in order to pay for it.

I'll bet you think we should also balance our national debt like you do your checkbook.

/Macro and Microeconomics are not comparable so stop it.

It'd be interesting, for one year or a few, to have a balance sheet for every American. What you pay in taxes v. what you consume in government services. Do it for corporations as well. Whether anything is made of it is up in the air, but I'd just like to see what the average case is for Americans.

As for the "Big Dig"... I'm from Kansas City, where the highways were done right the first time, so I don't care.

You have to admit the highways in KC are much simpler, less overburdened, and most importantly less underground. A regular surface highway will deteriorate, but won't collapse. You can use it forever, as long as you're ok with gradually decreasing road quality. Look at the Berlinka in Poland. Built by Hitler, unmaintained in sections, still in use.


That's the point. There's more or less a carrying capacity for these cities if you want to live in a place where you can easily drive a car from point A to point B. The Kansas City Metro rides the line of good planning and good density.

However, even after going to cities with roughly the same or even less density than KC has... it's still better. By quite a bit.
 
2013-07-21 10:26:13 PM  

SlothB77: Boston - run by democrats.  Detroit - run by democrats.  The same thing is going to happen to boston that is happening to detroit.  People will leave and they will run out of other people's money.


Every single large city in the US that has run into financial problems has been run by Americans. I think this is proof that Americans are financially incompetent.
 
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