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(USA Today)   Detroit can't even file for bankruptcy correctly   (usatoday.com) divider line 198
    More: Followup, Detroit, Mich, bankruptcy, Michigan Supreme Court, Michigan Court of Appeals, Kevyn Orr, Rick Snyder, emergency managers  
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10687 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jul 2013 at 6:35 PM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-19 05:09:41 PM
Twenty bucks says they wrote "OK" in the "Do not write in this space" box.
 
2013-07-19 05:20:59 PM
Sweet! Now everyone gets their pensions!
 
2013-07-19 05:27:03 PM
Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy.  You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.
 
2013-07-19 05:47:06 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy.  You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.


Let Michigan handle it. The federal government has thrown enough money at Detroit. They dug the hole.
 
2013-07-19 05:54:43 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy.  You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.


Pensions are mere promises of money.  Most people (Social Security notwithstanding) save for retirement by investing/saving money they've already earned.   Now the Fark Idealists might say "well city workers HAVE earned their pensions!"  These idealists might be right, but only in theory.  In practice, there simply are no funds to disburse.

A federal bailout is unlikely.  As much as Obama might want to, the Constitution stipulates that Congress has to approve spending.  Any civil servant pension bailout bill will be blocked by the House of Representatives.  Such a bailout could be set a dangerous precedent:  Will CalPERS (California Public Employee Retirement System) be bailed out as well?

Consider the United States Post Office in its fairly unique position : they aren't allowed any unfunded pensions.  This is why you hear about the possibility of ceasing mail delivery on Saturday : The Post Office is one of the few organizations in the public sector that has to be realistic about its retirement obligations.

For the rest of those people who rely on unfunded pensions, beware.  You've been playing musical chairs and the music is about to stop. It already has in a few places.  People are getting burned, and it sucks.  Sorry it sucks, but you've had long enough to see the writing on the wall.
 
2013-07-19 05:57:37 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy.  You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.


Of course not only student loans are protected through bankruptcy.
 
2013-07-19 06:06:10 PM
"It's cheating, sir, and it's cheating good people who work," the judge told assistant Attorney General Brian Devlin. "It's also not honoring the (United States) president, who took (Detroit's auto companies) out of bankruptcy."

There is nothing more I love than when members of the judiciary editorialize.
 
2013-07-19 06:10:58 PM

ceebeecates4: Sweet! Now everyone gets their pensions!


PROBLEM SOLVED
 
2013-07-19 06:22:52 PM

ceebeecates4: TuteTibiImperes: Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy.  You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.

Pensions are mere promises of money.  Most people (Social Security notwithstanding) save for retirement by investing/saving money they've already earned.   Now the Fark Idealists might say "well city workers HAVE earned their pensions!"  These idealists might be right, but only in theory.  In practice, there simply are no funds to disburse.

A federal bailout is unlikely.  As much as Obama might want to, the Constitution stipulates that Congress has to approve spending.  Any civil servant pension bailout bill will be blocked by the House of Representatives.  Such a bailout could be set a dangerous precedent:  Will CalPERS (California Public Employee Retirement System) be bailed out as well?

Consider the United States Post Office in its fairly unique position : they aren't allowed any unfunded pensions.  This is why you hear about the possibility of ceasing mail delivery on Saturday : The Post Office is one of the few organizations in the public sector that has to be realistic about its retirement obligations.

For the rest of those people who rely on unfunded pensions, beware.  You've been playing musical chairs and the music is about to stop. It already has in a few places.  People are getting burned, and it sucks.  Sorry it sucks, but you've had long enough to see the writing on the wall.


Most people plan for retirement on their own because it's made clear that they'll have to do so when they begin their careers.  In most cases there are also 401K plans with matching contributions and other benefits to help them along.  For government positions there are either no direct analogues to the position in the private sector, or the positions in the private sector pay considerably more than the government job.  The government job however comes with nice benefits, greater career stability, and the promise of a pension after retirement as incentive to take that position instead of working for more money in the private sector.  It's downright evil to snatch that away from people after they've earned it.

We should federally insure all pension plans, just like we do with bank accounts.  If my bank goes out of business tomorrow, I'm still guaranteed all of my money (well, up to $250K, but since I have less than that in there, I'm set) why shouldn't pension accounts get similar protection?

We bailed out the banks and gave billions of dollars to 1%s and their buddies.  Now that the average Joe needs a break we're seriously going to say 'tough luck pal' ?  I mean, we may end up doing that, but it's so heinous and wrong that I have a hard time wrapping my head around how anyone could propose something like that with a straight face.
 
2013-07-19 06:25:13 PM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: "It's cheating, sir, and it's cheating good people who work," the judge told assistant Attorney General Brian Devlin. "It's also not honoring the (United States) president, who took (Detroit's auto companies) out of bankruptcy."

There is nothing more I love than when members of the judiciary editorialize.


Practically all cars are manufactured with components made in other countries. The car companies are multi-national corporations. Yet people still consider certain cars "American" cars.
 
2013-07-19 06:37:45 PM
Don't give Detroit any more money. Just bulldoze the place.
 
2013-07-19 06:40:17 PM
Those blue dots really drive the point home.
 
2013-07-19 06:40:43 PM

Walker: Just bulldoze the place.


It's the only way to be sure.
 
2013-07-19 06:40:50 PM

Walker: Don't give Detroit any more money. Just bulldoze the place.


People were saying that about NO after Katrina.  Detroit has a rich cultural heritage, it deserves our best efforts and investment to bring it back to glory.
 
2013-07-19 06:41:23 PM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: "It's cheating, sir, and it's cheating good people who work," the judge told assistant Attorney General Brian Devlin. "It's also not honoring the (United States) president, who took (Detroit's auto companies) out of bankruptcy."

There is nothing more I love than when members of the judiciary editorialize.


I suspect her ruling, which appears to be nothing more than political grandstanding, will be smacked pretty hard at the next level.
 
2013-07-19 06:41:47 PM
Illinois should be next. Seriously. They have raped the pensions, and there is nothing left to give the people who earned them. Thanks. I'm sure they appreciate that after working for the state for 40 years, they have to get a shiat job at McDonalds making min wage. Most if not all of the Dr's offices i have seen, have a "We do not accept Illinois benefit plans" because they have to wait years, if ever, to get reimbursed from our sad state, who ranks last in credit, and teeters on the brink of insolvency, with most of our latest Governors in jail for corruption, and even though they tax the shiat out of us, it all just goes down the drain apparently.

/Thanks again for making Illinois the shiathole it is.
 
2013-07-19 06:42:20 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Walker: Don't give Detroit any more money. Just bulldoze the place.

People were saying that about NO after Katrina.  Detroit has a rich cultural heritage, it deserves our best efforts and investment to bring it back to glory.


LOL
 
2013-07-19 06:42:41 PM

ceebeecates4: TuteTibiImperes: Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy.  You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.

Pensions are mere promises of money.  Most people (Social Security notwithstanding) save for retirement by investing/saving money they've already earned.   Now the Fark Idealists might say "well city workers HAVE earned their pensions!"  These idealists might be right, but only in theory.  In practice, there simply are no funds to disburse.

A federal bailout is unlikely.  As much as Obama might want to, the Constitution stipulates that Congress has to approve spending.  Any civil servant pension bailout bill will be blocked by the House of Representatives.  Such a bailout could be set a dangerous precedent:  Will CalPERS (California Public Employee Retirement System) be bailed out as well?

Consider the United States Post Office in its fairly unique position : they aren't allowed any unfunded pensions.  This is why you hear about the possibility of ceasing mail delivery on Saturday : The Post Office is one of the few organizations in the public sector that has to be realistic about its retirement obligations.

For the rest of those people who rely on unfunded pensions, beware.  You've been playing musical chairs and the music is about to stop. It already has in a few places.  People are getting burned, and it sucks.  Sorry it sucks, but you've had long enough to see the writing on the wall.



Stupid idealists and their theoretical rightness! It's cute how an idealist would believe public employees HAVE earned a pension by believing their employer when they offered them the deal.
 
2013-07-19 06:43:06 PM
"You have 9 seconds to comply."
 
2013-07-19 06:43:11 PM

simplicimus: detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: "It's cheating, sir, and it's cheating good people who work," the judge told assistant Attorney General Brian Devlin. "It's also not honoring the (United States) president, who took (Detroit's auto companies) out of bankruptcy."

There is nothing more I love than when members of the judiciary editorialize.

Practically all cars are manufactured with components made in other countries. The car companies are multi-national corporations. Yet people still consider certain cars "American" cars.


Not disagreeing with that (I lived in Mexico for a year working for Ford/GM subsidiaries and spent time in Canada as well).  But that has nothing to do with the president.  Why even bring him into this discussion?  He's more busy dealing with that whole Trayvon jibber-jabber anyway.
 
2013-07-19 06:43:35 PM
Since bankruptcy is a Federal matter, per the US Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause IV), once it's filed in Federal Court, it's outside the jurisdiction of a state.

In other words: Michigan courts can say whatever the hell they want, but a Federal Bankruptcy Judge can tell them to STFU.

/IANAL
//If I'm wrong, please correct me, but actually cite sources that say a state court can stop an ongoing bankruptcy proceeding in Federal courts.
 
2013-07-19 06:43:59 PM
Make no mistake, this is not the City of Detroit filing for bankruptcy. This is the Governor and the "Emergency Manager" working to screw Detroit City workers out of their pensions, so they can have a little more money for the Kochs to take with them.
 
2013-07-19 06:46:44 PM

IlGreven: Make no mistake, this is not the City of Detroit filing for bankruptcy. This is the Governor and the "Emergency Manager" working to screw Detroit City workers out of their pensions, so they can have a little more money for the Kochs to take with them.


Soooo - where is the 10 billion in unfunded liabilities coming from?  If the money is going to the Koch's where is at right now?
 
2013-07-19 06:48:01 PM

IlGreven: Make no mistake, this is not the City of Detroit filing for bankruptcy. This is the Governor and the "Emergency Manager" working to screw Detroit City workers out of their pensions, so they can have a little more money for the Kochs to take with them.


Yeah!  After all, the city only owes what 18 billion?  Chump change!  Let's see 18 billion across 700,000 residents is just $25,700 per resident. Just have all of them write a check for that amount and everything is good.
 
2013-07-19 06:48:31 PM

Phony_Soldier: TuteTibiImperes: Walker: Don't give Detroit any more money. Just bulldoze the place.

People were saying that about NO after Katrina.  Detroit has a rich cultural heritage, it deserves our best efforts and investment to bring it back to glory.

LOL


Motown, many milestones in the auto industry, the engine that drove the war effort in WWII, great architecture, key civil rights events, etc.  Yeah, nothing good or important ever happened there, let's just let it burn.
 
2013-07-19 06:48:43 PM
tute t:

Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy.  You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.

I am going to assume you may not be familiar with the name "Bernie Madoff" and that the FDIC stopped insuring dollar for dollar some time ago?
Yes, you'd think pensions SHOULD be protected - especially as they are the hedge against living on social security - but, somewhere along the way - YOUR retirement money became something OTHER than just yours - it is now a piggy bank for corporations to make money on - until the bottom falls out and the principal (your retirement) goes to pay a brokerage house's benefits somewhere.
 
2013-07-19 06:50:22 PM
'The price of being stupid
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
is TOO DAMN HIGH!'

/too lazy for meme thingy generators.
//it's friday and I'm getting my drink on
///and slashies
 
2013-07-19 06:51:03 PM

Silverstaff: Since bankruptcy is a Federal matter, per the US Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause IV), once it's filed in Federal Court, it's outside the jurisdiction of a state.

In other words: Michigan courts can say whatever the hell they want, but a Federal Bankruptcy Judge can tell them to STFU.

/IANAL
//If I'm wrong, please correct me, but actually cite sources that say a state court can stop an ongoing bankruptcy proceeding in Federal courts.


The bankruptcy proceedings themselves are Federal, whether or not the city complied with its own/state laws/constitution in filing the bankruptcy is a state court matter.
 
2013-07-19 06:51:06 PM

parasol: tute t:

Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy.  You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.

I am going to assume you may not be familiar with the name "Bernie Madoff" and that the FDIC stopped insuring dollar for dollar some time ago?
Yes, you'd think pensions SHOULD be protected - especially as they are the hedge against living on social security - but, somewhere along the way - YOUR retirement money became something OTHER than just yours - it is now a piggy bank for corporations to make money on - until the bottom falls out and the principal (your retirement) goes to pay a brokerage house's benefits somewhere.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pension_Benefit_Guaranty_Corporation
 
2013-07-19 06:51:45 PM
Fine, they can't declare bankruptcy under this theory.  Now what?  If the federal and state government refuse to provide more money how can you pay the pensions with non-existent money?  You can't tax anymore, you could cut services so that there are no city workers or police and still not have any money. If that happens, who wants to live in a city where there is no public services while at the same time possesses high taxes?  At some point, regardless of what the law says, you have to face the facts that there is no money.  The public employees and elected government painted themselves in a corner and refused to change with the times.  That means that they are going to have to have their agreements undone because the promises made destroyed the city they worked for.

This should be a lesson for other large cities with massive benefits promised with no income.  Soon we will see Los Angeles and others go through the painful restructuring.  It will be interesting to see what happens when reality confronts Illinois and eventually California and the obligations cannot be met.
 
2013-07-19 06:52:26 PM
I have no idea how to navigate that funknagel technological marvel of a page. I saw a giant screen-filling interactive graphic under the headline "Judge Declares Bankruptcy Unconstitutional", but no story. Clicking the "x" next to the ginormous graphicpalooza sends me to the website's homepage. HELLO! I'M A SERVER. Hi, I just want to read the story...? HELLO! I'M A SERVER.
 
2013-07-19 06:52:58 PM
YOU DISHONOR LEADER! YOU BRING HIM GREAT SHAME! YOU REFILE WHILE I TELL GREAT LEADER WHAT YOU'VE DONE!

What country/century is this again?
 
2013-07-19 06:52:59 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Phony_Soldier: TuteTibiImperes: Walker: Don't give Detroit any more money. Just bulldoze the place.

People were saying that about NO after Katrina.  Detroit has a rich cultural heritage, it deserves our best efforts and investment to bring it back to glory.

LOL

Motown, many milestones in the auto industry, the engine that drove the war effort in WWII, great architecture, key civil rights events, etc.  Yeah, nothing good or important ever happened there, let's just let it burn.


Too bad one race of folks drove it into the ditch. And will do it again if you throw good money after bad.  Let it burn or sell it to Windsor.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-07-19 06:53:40 PM
If there were a serious dispute over the legality of the filing, the bankruptcy judge could ask the state supreme court to decide. I expect the state appeals court to reverse quickly.

Cataholic

According to previous coverage, Detroit's pensions are not guaranteed.
 
2013-07-19 06:53:49 PM

parasol: tute t:

Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy.  You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.

I am going to assume you may not be familiar with the name "Bernie Madoff" and that the FDIC stopped insuring dollar for dollar some time ago?
Yes, you'd think pensions SHOULD be protected - especially as they are the hedge against living on social security - but, somewhere along the way - YOUR retirement money became something OTHER than just yours - it is now a piggy bank for corporations to make money on - until the bottom falls out and the principal (your retirement) goes to pay a brokerage house's benefits somewhere.


And why should we accept that?  Billionaires playing with the livelihood of the middle class and betting with their pensions should generate nothing less than outrage.

As far as the FDIC goes, my bank still has little placards that say my accounts are insured up to whatever amount and my credit union says the same buy by the NCUA, is that not actually the case?
 
2013-07-19 06:54:25 PM

TuteTibiImperes: We should federally insure all pension plans


We do.  But only for private corporations apparently.  http://www.pbgc.gov/

Seems kind of backwards, no?
 
2013-07-19 06:54:51 PM

TuteTibiImperes: You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.


That's what bankruptcy is. You can argue it's wrong to relieve people of obligations they've entered into, and I'm inclined to agree, but that's the basic idea behind bankruptcy- the people you owe money to get screwed, and are theoretically supposed to take that risk into account when deciding the rate of return.
 
2013-07-19 06:55:02 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Phony_Soldier: TuteTibiImperes: Walker: Don't give Detroit any more money. Just bulldoze the place.

People were saying that about NO after Katrina.  Detroit has a rich cultural heritage, it deserves our best efforts and investment to bring it back to glory.

LOL

Motown, many milestones in the auto industry, the engine that drove the war effort in WWII, great architecture, key civil rights events, etc.  Yeah, nothing good or important ever happened there, let's just let it burn.


You do know most of that is gone right?  And the engine's that drove WWII?  This one of these great architectural landmarks today:
www.officialpsds.com

/That's the Packard plant if you were wondering.  The size of several city blocks abandoned to scrappers.
 
2013-07-19 06:57:15 PM

IlGreven: Make no mistake, this is not the City of Detroit filing for bankruptcy. This is the Governor and the "Emergency Manager" working to screw Detroit City workers out of their pensions, so they can have a little more money for the Kochs to take with them.


This bankruptcy needed to happened with or without the Kochs and Governor Snyder. Stop drinking out of the conspiracy Kool-Aid. Detroit has so many liabilities, it quadruples the number of liabilities Jefferson County, Alabama had when it filed for bankruptcy. Detroit still thinks of itself as a city with over one million with factories humming away. Corporations have already adjusted to manufacturing and other services since the 1970s, Detroit needs to do the same too. A bankruptcy is a way forward. Detroit needs to more froward with regionalism with other cities in the Metro Detroit Area which Snyder has been doing with mass transit for example.

As a professor once told me in an urban government class, when you're declining and losing your tax base, you can't tax by zero. Detroit realized yesterday that it can't tax by zero anymore.
 
2013-07-19 06:57:32 PM

ZAZ: If there were a serious dispute over the legality of the filing, the bankruptcy judge could ask the state supreme court to decide. I expect the state appeals court to reverse quickly.

Cataholic

According to previous coverage, Detroit's pensions are not guaranteed.


True.  But almost all private employers' are and the poster was referring to corporate pensions.  The people of Detroit continually elected the idiots who created this mess.  I have no sympathy for them.
 
2013-07-19 06:57:41 PM
Honor past pension grants, allowing partial vesting for those currently employed, radically alter pensions and comp. moving forward. NO MORE FREE LUNCHES.

Stop the f-ing bleeding.

As for the "we bailed out the banks and the insurance companies", totally different beast...without such bailouts...which i didnt all together appreciete as some culling should have occurred, it would have destroyed the worlds economy and further agrigated the wealth into the hands of the few.
 
2013-07-19 06:58:24 PM

parasol: FDIC stopped insuring dollar for dollar some time ago?


Citation Needed.

Seriously.  While obviously not all types of accounts are covered by FDIC insurance, actual savings accounts at banks up to the limit at the time (Currently $250,000) are backed by the full faith and credit of the US government.

Prove for me just one time, ONCE, where any bank has failed since the FDIC was created in 1934 and an account that was FDIC insured was NOT backed up to the limit of the insurance at the time.  Do it.

The problem came when idiots thought that they could never lose money on any investments and put money into various securities and funds, and didn't understand that everything from bonds and hedge funds and mutual funds to most money market accounts are not FDIC insured.  That's your savings account (and a few other types of accounts, such as specific types of checking accounts and a specific type of money market account).

If you're claiming that the FDIC does not back up to $250,000 in clearly specified account types at over 7,000 banks in the US, cite your sources, else STFU.
 
2013-07-19 06:58:28 PM

Daedalus27: Fine, they can't declare bankruptcy under this theory.  Now what?  If the federal and state government refuse to provide more money how can you pay the pensions with non-existent money?  You can't tax anymore, you could cut services so that there are no city workers or police and still not have any money. If that happens, who wants to live in a city where there is no public services while at the same time possesses high taxes?  At some point, regardless of what the law says, you have to face the facts that there is no money.  The public employees and elected government painted themselves in a corner and refused to change with the times.  That means that they are going to have to have their agreements undone because the promises made destroyed the city they worked for.

This should be a lesson for other large cities with massive benefits promised with no income.  Soon we will see Los Angeles and others go through the painful restructuring.  It will be interesting to see what happens when reality confronts Illinois and eventually California and the obligations cannot be met.


If there's no money it's time for a bailout.  The people who devoted their lives to working for the city shouldn't be the ones left holding the bag.  Once the pensions are fully funded restructuring the rest of the city budget may well be worthwhile.  If it comes down to it the public pensions should be the first items paid out of any funds remaining, private creditors and corporations owed money by the city can take a back seat until public obligations are handled.
 
2013-07-19 07:01:11 PM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: TuteTibiImperes: Phony_Soldier: TuteTibiImperes: Walker: Don't give Detroit any more money. Just bulldoze the place.

People were saying that about NO after Katrina.  Detroit has a rich cultural heritage, it deserves our best efforts and investment to bring it back to glory.

LOL

Motown, many milestones in the auto industry, the engine that drove the war effort in WWII, great architecture, key civil rights events, etc.  Yeah, nothing good or important ever happened there, let's just let it burn.

You do know most of that is gone right?  And the engine's that drove WWII?  This one of these great architectural landmarks today:
[www.officialpsds.com image 850x568]

/That's the Packard plant if you were wondering.  The size of several city blocks abandoned to scrappers.


It's a shame that so much of the city has fallen into disrepair, and that should be addressed.  The solution isn't to give up, it's to build it back to its former glory.
 
2013-07-19 07:01:57 PM

ceebeecates4: TuteTibiImperes: Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy.  You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.

Pensions are mere promises of money.  Most people (Social Security notwithstanding) save for retirement by investing/saving money they've already earned.   Now the Fark Idealists might say "well city workers HAVE earned their pensions!"  These idealists might be right, but only in theory.  In practice, there simply are no funds to disburse.


Not always. Many pensions ARE funded by workers. For example I work for a state university and my participation in the state pension program is mandatory. 11.5% of my paycheck is withheld and deposited in the pension fund (the state then matches that dollar-for-dollar). So you can't argue "Well you didn't earn it!" because I did contribute, and was forced to contribute. You can't opt out of the pension if you take the job.

Not all pensions work like that, but check before you start hating on people as mooching or the like. It is also rather unfeasible to say "Well you should just invest your own money!" While I do, 11% of it is already being taken for retirement, which is a sizable percentage and I can't just get that to put in other places.
 
2013-07-19 07:02:09 PM
www.damnlol.com
 
2013-07-19 07:02:40 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Pensions seem like they should be protected from discharge through bankruptcy. You make a promise to someone that they'll have certain lifetime rewards for putting in a certain period of service, you shouldn't be able to change the deal after they've fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Michigan just needs to bail the city out, or if it comes to it, the Fed needs to drop the cash in to get things rolling in the right direction.


Bankruptcy involves a whole bunch of people that were promised money and aren't going to get it.  Why should retired workers be some special case?

The unions were living high on the hog and forced this mess on the city.  Too bad, there should be no bailout.

ceebeecates4: For the rest of those people who rely on unfunded pensions, beware. You've been playing musical chairs and the music is about to stop. It already has in a few places. People are getting burned, and it sucks. Sorry it sucks, but you've had long enough to see the writing on the wall.


Exactly.  Unions love pensions because the costs show up down the road and so management faced with a strike now vs big trouble down the road normally kick the can down the road.

ceebeecates4: Consider the United States Post Office in its fairly unique position : they aren't allowed any unfunded pensions. This is why you hear about the possibility of ceasing mail delivery on Saturday : The Post Office is one of the few organizations in the public sector that has to be realistic about its retirement obligations.


Actually, a big part of the problem is that they *USED* to have unfunded pensions and are being required to fix it on a short timescale.

TuteTibiImperes: We should federally insure all pension plans, just like we do with bank accounts. If my bank goes out of business tomorrow, I'm still guaranteed all of my money (well, up to $250K, but since I have less than that in there, I'm set) why shouldn't pension accounts get similar protection?


There is.  It's just the problem *FAR* exceeded the insurance.
 
2013-07-19 07:05:29 PM

WhyKnot: NO MORE FREE LUNCHES.


Working for less than I could make in the private sector with the trade-off of a guaranteed pension is a free lunch?  Really?
 
2013-07-19 07:05:55 PM
 
2013-07-19 07:06:30 PM
Oh, and the judge's statement about the president is offensive...what the president wants has nothing to do with Chicago and whether the filling of BK was legal.

My guess is they her comment is a not-so-subtle hint at a desire for an appointment to a federal bench.
 
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