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(Reason Magazine)   Ever wonder why some gun owners seem paranoid about gun control proposals, no matter how modest? Here's why   (reason.com) divider line 448
    More: PSA, Brady Campaign, gun owners, California Penal Code, National Coalition Party, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Violence Policy Center, concealed carry, California State Legislature  
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7576 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Jul 2013 at 2:20 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-19 01:05:12 PM
BTW, that's precisely how slippery slopes work in the real world.
 
2013-07-19 01:10:09 PM
Yep.
 
2013-07-19 01:15:05 PM
The anti-gun crowd doesn't want "compromise." They want confiscation and control.

You mean the Brady Bunch?  Yeah, they want to take all our guns away.  All several dozen of them.
 
2013-07-19 01:17:18 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess this critique is relies on slippery slope and paranoia to make its point.

The anti-gun crowd doesn't want "compromise." They want confiscation and control.


Oh man I am so good at this.
 
2013-07-19 01:29:01 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess this critique is relies on slippery slope and paranoia to make its point.

The anti-gun crowd doesn't want "compromise." They want confiscation and control.

Oh man I am so good at this.


Somebody didn't RTFA.
 
2013-07-19 01:40:12 PM
I'll add another example to those in TFA:

ALL THE WAY DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE: GUN PROHIBITION IN ENGLAND AND SOME LESSONS FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES IN AMERICA

In fact, gun control is pretty much the canonical example of how slippery slopes work in the real world, so much so that it has been used to describe The Mechanisms of the Slippery Slope in scholarly articles.
 
2013-07-19 01:44:23 PM

dittybopper: Somebody didn't RTFA.


The headline saved me from doing so - they put their paranoia right there!
 
2013-07-19 01:49:42 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: dittybopper: Somebody didn't RTFA.

The headline saved me from doing so - they put their paranoia right there!


Blame me.  I'm subby.
 
2013-07-19 01:51:30 PM

dittybopper: Blame me. I'm subby.


I meant the headline of the article that I quoted. But either way. As you were.
 
2013-07-19 01:51:44 PM
What gun owners they say they want: Independence, freedom, protection from other people, protection from the government, ability to overthrow government if necessary.

What gun owners really want: To, just once in their life, be in a John Wayne style gun battle in which they come out victorious against a purely evil-hearted person.

You know, like Trayvon Martin.
a3.twimg.com
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-19 02:05:20 PM
Because of the slippery slope fallacy.  I knew it was a waste of time to click a "Reason" link.
 
2013-07-19 02:07:35 PM

vpb: Because of the slippery slope fallacy.  I knew it was a waste of time to click a "Reason" link.


You know, slippery slopes are a *LOGICAL* fallacy.  But we don't live on the planet Vulcan.

I've linked to a scholarly paper above by a respected constitutional law professor (Eugene Volokh of UCLA) that describes how slippery slopes actually function.
 
2013-07-19 02:10:33 PM
One side (NRA) wants: shall-issue CCW permits with little-to-no qualification or background checks for unlimited numbers of guns, ammunition, magazine size, and load type.

One side (Brady) wants: registration and banning of handguns up to confiscation; hell maybe a repeal of the 2nd Amendment.

So saying that shutting down background checks for all purchases as the fight against the slippery slope is flawed, because we're currently pushing towards the NRA side as one can see with Heller v. DC, stand-your-ground laws, and the Miller (?) case in Chicago that has opened up CCW to all states.  Sure, Colorado, CT, and NY have tightened regulations but just as many states are passing resolutions to loosen them.

So which way does this slippery slope point?
 
2013-07-19 02:12:25 PM
Article nailed it. The slippery slope argument wouldn't be so damn persuasive if every single gun regulation - "oh this is all we want, I promise" - wasn't followed by a new push for even more restrictions.

E.g. "Today, the weapons regulation portion of the California Penal Code Annotated spans over 1,050 pages, yet at last count 68 more gun control measures are pending in the legislature. No matter how much the advocates of gun control get, it will never be enough."
 
2013-07-19 02:17:52 PM

dittybopper: vpb: Because of the slippery slope fallacy.  I knew it was a waste of time to click a "Reason" link.

You know, slippery slopes are a *LOGICAL* fallacy.  But we don't live on the planet Vulcan.

I've linked to a scholarly paper above by a respected constitutional law professor (Eugene Volokh of UCLA) that describes how slippery slopes actually function.


"Appeal to Authority" and "Affirming a Disjunct" Niiiiiiice.
 
2013-07-19 02:22:51 PM
Just look a few threads down, if you want to know why.
 
2013-07-19 02:23:23 PM
While the "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy, that is when it is used by one side to claim that the other will take them down that slope.  In this case article is about one side explicitly stating they want to go down that slope.
 
2013-07-19 02:23:56 PM
Back in 1976, Pete Shields, chairman of what is today the Brady Campaign, candidly laid out the blueprint for  The New Yorker:

We're going to have to take one step at a time, and the first step is necessarily - given the political realities - going to be very modest. Right now, though, we'd be satisfied not with half a loaf but with a slice. Our ultimate goal - total control of handguns in the United States - is going to take time.

reason.derp


www.shootersexpress.com
 
2013-07-19 02:24:03 PM
What's so bad about selling gun owners to hungry British aristocrats?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-19 02:24:28 PM

dittybopper: vpb: Because of the slippery slope fallacy.  I knew it was a waste of time to click a "Reason" link.

You know, slippery slopes are a *LOGICAL* fallacy.  But we don't live on the planet Vulcan.

I've linked to a scholarly paper above by a respected constitutional law professor (Eugene Volokh of UCLA) that describes how slippery slopes actually function.


Yes, and this article is a prime example of that logical fallacy.

Here's an article on why this argument is total bullshiat.  The Non Causa Pro Causa bit in particular.

No country has totally banned all guns, not even the ones with the strictest gun control.  This is pretty much typical irrational gun nut spin that is used to manipulate the fears of the paranoid and ignorant.
 
2013-07-19 02:25:26 PM
For the won't click a Reason linkers, the gist:

Compromise requires that both parties relinquish something.  If your counterpart's position is "give me this now, and I'll take the rest later," there is no real compromise to be had. Over decades, that has been precisely the experience of American gun owners.
 
2013-07-19 02:25:31 PM

dittybopper: I'll add another example to those in TFA:

ALL THE WAY DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE: GUN PROHIBITION IN ENGLAND AND SOME LESSONS FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES IN AMERICA

In fact, gun control is pretty much the canonical example of how slippery slopes work in the real world, so much so that it has been used to describe The Mechanisms of the Slippery Slope in scholarly articles.


And if the British Army had guns, America never would've won the Revolutionary War. .  .
 
2013-07-19 02:25:57 PM

dittybopper: I'll add another example to those in TFA:

ALL THE WAY DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE: GUN PROHIBITION IN ENGLAND AND SOME LESSONS FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES IN AMERICA

In fact, gun control is pretty much the canonical example of how slippery slopes work in the real world, so much so that it has been used to describe The Mechanisms of the Slippery Slope in scholarly articles.


You know the slippery slope is a logical fallacy, right?
 
2013-07-19 02:26:30 PM

Elegy: No matter how much the advocates of gun control get, it will never be enough."


See, the way I know you are full of bullshiat is that you think that the advocates of gun control have actually gotten  something.  There are very VERY few gun control laws in this country, if the gun control advocates "couldn't get enough" then you would think there would actually be a semblance of control on guns in America...but there isn't, so go climb back into your little hole...
 
2013-07-19 02:29:17 PM
They're generally pissing their pants every time they turn around anyway, hence the panic to be armed everywhere they go?

/not clicking on the most misnamed site on the internet
 
2013-07-19 02:29:41 PM
Laugh at them all you want, but 2nd amendment "rights" enthusiasts successfully protected all the white women from the riots after the Zimmerman trial
 
2013-07-19 02:30:30 PM

dittybopper: I'll add another example to those in TFA:

ALL THE WAY DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE: GUN PROHIBITION IN ENGLAND AND SOME LESSONS FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES IN AMERICA

In fact, gun control is pretty much the canonical example of how slippery slopes work in the real world, so much so that it has been used to describe The Mechanisms of the Slippery Slope in scholarly articles.


Have you examined the slippery slope that results from unrestricted, unregulated mass gun ownership?
 
2013-07-19 02:30:55 PM

vpb: No country has totally banned all guns, not even the ones with the strictest gun control. This is pretty much typical irrational gun nut spin that is used to manipulate the fears of the paranoid and ignorant.


Yeah. Gun control working great in Jamaica. In fact, gun control legislation in Jamaica is so successful, they have established a separate court just to try gun crimes.
 
2013-07-19 02:31:25 PM
If this country is really ready for gun control, then we should just repeal the 2nd ammendment and pass a no-nonsense ammendment instead of trying to back door everything and then have the tax payers pay through the nose to defend the legislation till it ends up in the supreme court?

The 2nd ammendment is what it is and is the law of the land whether we like it or not.. if we don't like it, we as a nation should rise up and repeal it instead of electing politicians who we know will pay us lip service while they stuff the bills with pork.
 
2013-07-19 02:32:25 PM

Zeb Hesselgresser: For the won't click a Reason linkers, the gist:

Compromise requires that both parties relinquish something.  If your counterpart's position is "give me this now, and I'll take the rest later," there is no real compromise to be had. Over decades, that has been precisely the experience of American gun owners.


So, complete bullsh*t.
 
2013-07-19 02:32:31 PM

factoryconnection: So saying that shutting down background checks for all purchases as the fight against the slippery slope is flawed, because we're currently pushing towards the NRA side as one can see with Heller v. DC, stand-your-ground laws, and the Miller (?) case in Chicago that has opened up CCW to all states.  Sure, Colorado, CT, and NY have tightened regulations but just as many states are passing resolutions to loosen them.

So which way does this slippery slope point?


When I was born, you could, at the federal level:

1. legally buy a new gun without any paperwork.
2. buy a gun through the mail.
3. buy a gun from a dealer without any background check
4. own a gun even if you had certain misdemeanors.
5. buy a new machine gun.

You can't do any of those things today.

In my state, you can't even load more than 7 bullets in a magazine for fear of arrest.

It's true that things are a bit better than they were in the 1990's, especially at the state level, except of course for New York, California, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and perhaps a handful of other states.
 
2013-07-19 02:33:20 PM

dwrash: If this country is really ready for gun control, then we should just repeal the 2nd ammendment and pass a no-nonsense ammendment instead of trying to back door everything and then have the tax payers pay through the nose to defend the legislation till it ends up in the supreme court?

The 2nd ammendment is what it is and is the law of the land whether we like it or not.. if we don't like it, we as a nation should rise up and repeal it instead of electing politicians who we know will pay us lip service while they stuff the bills with pork.


I certainly hope you feel the same way about abortion.
 
2013-07-19 02:33:46 PM

dittybopper: In fact, gun control is pretty much the canonical example of how slippery slopes work in the real world, so much so that it has been used to describe The Mechanisms of the Slippery Slope in scholarly articles.


Huh.  So if we take any of your advice and ever loosen an existing gun law, it will lead to Somalia in an hour.  Ask people to present identification while buying a bazooka?  Worst Korea is 4 to 5 minutes away.  Make any new type of firearm?  Toddlers will have flamethrowers.

And here I thought the term "slippery slope" denoted a logical fallacy.  You also seem to think that slippery slopes only point in the direction that is convenient for your political predispositions.
 
2013-07-19 02:34:09 PM
Reason Magazine: Making people with two-digit IQs feel better about themselves since 1968.
 
2013-07-19 02:35:07 PM

dittybopper: 1. legally buy a new gun without any paperwork.
2. buy a gun through the mail.
3. buy a gun from a dealer without any background check
4. own a gun even if you had certain misdemeanors.
5. buy a new machine gun.

You can't do any of those things today.


And yet, you still have a right to bear arms, do you not? I don't see what the problem is. When cars first came in you didn't need a license. Now you do. Have all cars been taken off the road?
 
2013-07-19 02:35:16 PM

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: "Appeal to Authority" and "Affirming a Disjunct" Niiiiiiice.


Did you actually *READ* the article I posted?  I wasn't appealing to authority, I was pointing out it didn't come from NRA headquarters.

Dolt.
 
2013-07-19 02:35:31 PM

cameroncrazy1984: dwrash: If this country is really ready for gun control, then we should just repeal the 2nd ammendment and pass a no-nonsense ammendment instead of trying to back door everything and then have the tax payers pay through the nose to defend the legislation till it ends up in the supreme court?

The 2nd ammendment is what it is and is the law of the land whether we like it or not.. if we don't like it, we as a nation should rise up and repeal it instead of electing politicians who we know will pay us lip service while they stuff the bills with pork.

I certainly hope you feel the same way about abortion.


How do you feel about the 2nd amendment?

Same as you do abortion?
 
2013-07-19 02:36:10 PM
the national firearms act of 1934 has led to a slippery slope in which
 
2013-07-19 02:36:52 PM

cameroncrazy1984: And yet, you still have a right to bear arms, do you not? I don't see what the problem is. When cars first came in you didn't need a license. Now you do. Have all cars been taken off the road?


Are there organizations and people who spend millions of dollars advocating for that?

No?

Well, we've got them advocating for removal of guns.
 
2013-07-19 02:37:02 PM
Reliance upon the "slippery slope" argument is logically fallacious and does create untenable arguments.

Reliance upon the specific claims of firearm regulation advocates is not fallacious, and does provide demonstration of their goals.

The author of the article should have focused entirely upon the latter reliance, and not upon the former.
 
2013-07-19 02:37:06 PM

Giltric: cameroncrazy1984: dwrash: If this country is really ready for gun control, then we should just repeal the 2nd ammendment and pass a no-nonsense ammendment instead of trying to back door everything and then have the tax payers pay through the nose to defend the legislation till it ends up in the supreme court?

The 2nd ammendment is what it is and is the law of the land whether we like it or not.. if we don't like it, we as a nation should rise up and repeal it instead of electing politicians who we know will pay us lip service while they stuff the bills with pork.

I certainly hope you feel the same way about abortion.

How do you feel about the 2nd amendment?

Same as you do abortion?


Yep, I feel like it is the law of the land, and if we want to restrict gun ownership we must repeal it. I'm sorry, were you expecting some sort of inconsistency?
 
2013-07-19 02:37:12 PM

bdub77: What gun owners they say they want: Independence, freedom, protection from other people, protection from the government, ability to overthrow government if necessary.

What gun owners really want: To, just once in their life, be in a John Wayne style gun battle in which they come out victorious against a purely evil-hearted person.

You know, like Trayvon Martin.
[a3.twimg.com image 73x73]


Yeah I wouldn't mind shooting a commie or a fascist or a hoplophobe in the face every now and then.  Until then I'll just stick to making sure the goblins don't come through the door.

/nothing scarier than a pissed off naked man at 2am holding a scattergun
 
2013-07-19 02:37:43 PM
Compromise requires that both parties relinquish something.

Um.  No, it doesn't.  It really, really doesn't.  And that's where I stopped reading.
 
2013-07-19 02:38:08 PM
I like how all the gun grabbers are proclaiming slippery slop is a fallacy yet are up in arms about Texas's abortion restrictions and arguing that safer standards are an attempt to ban abortion..

Hint, both restrictions are bad as they try to limit your freedoms.

/Against gun restrictions, against abortion restrictions
 
2013-07-19 02:38:40 PM

chimp_ninja: dittybopper: In fact, gun control is pretty much the canonical example of how slippery slopes work in the real world, so much so that it has been used to describe The Mechanisms of the Slippery Slope in scholarly articles.

Huh.  So if we take any of your advice and ever loosen an existing gun law, it will lead to Somalia in an hour.  Ask people to present identification while buying a bazooka?  Worst Korea is 4 to 5 minutes away.  Make any new type of firearm?  Toddlers will have flamethrowers.

And here I thought the term "slippery slope" denoted a logical fallacy.  You also seem to think that slippery slopes only point in the direction that is convenient for your political predispositions.


That's how the mind of a Reason Magazine reader works.
 
2013-07-19 02:38:44 PM

Zeb Hesselgresser: If your counterpart's position is "give me this now, and I'll take the rest later," there is no real compromise to be had.

 
2013-07-19 02:38:48 PM

chimp_ninja: So if we take any of your advice and ever loosen an existing gun law, it will lead to Somalia in an hour.


Except that we have the example of what it was like *BEFORE* those laws were enacted, and we didn't have Somalia.

So there.
 
2013-07-19 02:38:55 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Giltric: cameroncrazy1984: dwrash: If this country is really ready for gun control, then we should just repeal the 2nd ammendment and pass a no-nonsense ammendment instead of trying to back door everything and then have the tax payers pay through the nose to defend the legislation till it ends up in the supreme court?

The 2nd ammendment is what it is and is the law of the land whether we like it or not.. if we don't like it, we as a nation should rise up and repeal it instead of electing politicians who we know will pay us lip service while they stuff the bills with pork.

I certainly hope you feel the same way about abortion.

How do you feel about the 2nd amendment?

Same as you do abortion?

Yep, I feel like it is the law of the land, and if we want to restrict gun ownership we must repeal it. I'm sorry, were you expecting some sort of inconsistency?


Based on your other posts in gun control threads...yes.
 
2013-07-19 02:39:46 PM

Tarl3k: Elegy: No matter how much the advocates of gun control get, it will never be enough."

See, the way I know you are full of bullshiat is that you think that the advocates of gun control have actually gotten  something.   There are very VERY few gun control laws in this country, if the gun control advocates "couldn't get enough" then you would think there would actually be a semblance of control on guns in America...but there isn't, so go climb back into your little hole...


WAT

FTFA:
Today, the weapons regulation portion of the California Penal Code Annotated spans over 1,050 pages, yet at last count 68 more gun control measures are pending in the legislature.

That's just Cali.  Have you ever purchased a firearm and filled out all the requisite paperwork?  Obtained a CPL?  Jumped through the Form 4 circus for Class 3 items or dealt with the ATF and their $200 tax stamps?  "VERY few gun control laws in this country" shows the level of ignorance some non-gun owners have, and why their "solutions" are always so half-baked,.
 
2013-07-19 02:40:04 PM

cameroncrazy1984: dwrash: If this country is really ready for gun control, then we should just repeal the 2nd ammendment and pass a no-nonsense ammendment instead of trying to back door everything and then have the tax payers pay through the nose to defend the legislation till it ends up in the supreme court?

The 2nd ammendment is what it is and is the law of the land whether we like it or not.. if we don't like it, we as a nation should rise up and repeal it instead of electing politicians who we know will pay us lip service while they stuff the bills with pork.

I certainly hope you feel the same way about abortion.


Yup.. there are some issues that are so big the population should decide, instead of burden the tax payers and system with the litigation over infringing laws.

Personally, although I abhor abortion, I think it should be make available and be safe for women... its become such a third rail in politics that you end up with situations like the Goznell clinic in Pennsylvania that just turn people stomachs.  And yes, common sense safety regulations might make it harder to get a late term abortion in some areas, but it's safer for woman.

I also think condoms and birth control should be passed out like candy to the point where abortions shouldn't be necessary.  And if we ever do have a single payer system, sterilization should be something the we really should think about for repeat offenders that have multiple abortions that now everyone is footing the bill for... abortion is a last resort, not a method of birth control.

I'm sure that somehow I will get flamed for the above.. but so be it.
 
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