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(Slate)   In light of Detroit's bankruptcy, people are noting that cities in general are usually terribly governed. The solution? More partisan politics   (slate.com) divider line 23
    More: Followup, Detroit, Mayor of New York, local governments, suburbanites, NIMBY, federal politics, bankruptcy, nonpartisan  
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1350 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Jul 2013 at 3:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-07-19 11:15:31 AM
6 votes:

DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.


I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.
2013-07-19 01:35:55 PM
5 votes:

Fark It: start at a reasonable $12 an hour


And that helped fark Detroit. You can't have a functional economy unless people have money to spend. Also it's insultingly low compared to what workers in Japan, Germany, England etc make. Also labor costs aren't even the biggest cost of a car in the first place.
2013-07-19 11:49:34 AM
4 votes:

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Voiceofreason01: I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

To compound the problem, the industry in question was labor intensive and workers didn't need much more than a high school education. So, not only did you have the loss of jobs from foreign competition, you had a loss of jobs from technology, both with no jobs to replace them.

As someone who has been working for a long time to right another, smaller rust belt city, I can say that there's no easy solution. Pittsburgh suffered for 20 years after the collapse of Steel before it was able to start getting back on its feet, but we'll never be the surging metropolis we once were.


Detroit got spoiled.  Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them.  People will always buy American cars.  My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour.  We'll always have a tax base.  GM has gotten better, both on the labor side and with management (they're producing better cars and start at a reasonable $12 an hour).  But it was too late, and GM isn't going to save Detroit.  There's too much wrong with the city.

Greed, selfishness, and a lack of prescience are what did Detroit in.

/hurr it's the unions
//hurr it's the management
2013-07-19 03:39:36 PM
3 votes:
dwrash:
Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.
2013-07-19 02:02:11 PM
3 votes:
I think Canada should buy it.  Give everyone free health care and companies will be dying to open up factories again if they don't have to pay this overhead cost anymore.
2013-07-19 11:30:23 AM
3 votes:

Voiceofreason01: I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.


To compound the problem, the industry in question was labor intensive and workers didn't need much more than a high school education. So, not only did you have the loss of jobs from foreign competition, you had a loss of jobs from technology, both with no jobs to replace them.

As someone who has been working for a long time to right another, smaller rust belt city, I can say that there's no easy solution. Pittsburgh suffered for 20 years after the collapse of Steel before it was able to start getting back on its feet, but we'll never be the surging metropolis we once were.
2013-07-19 11:02:37 AM
3 votes:
I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.
2013-07-19 03:33:48 PM
2 votes:
Personally, moderate R governor plus moderate D legislature is the best way to go.

Moderate R governor keeps the crazy spending in control as well as being sane(r) on social justice, while moderate D legislature doesn't pull crazy stunts re: abortion, church, school prayer, gay marriage, creationism, etc, etc and is able to prevent massive tax cuts from defunding everything.
2013-07-19 01:51:03 PM
2 votes:
Fark It:
Detroit got spoiled.  Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them.  People will always buy American cars.  My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour.  We'll always have a tax base.  GM has gotten better, both on the labor side and with management (they're producing better cars and start at a reasonable $12 an hour).  But it was too late, and GM isn't going to save Detroit.  There's too much wrong with the city.

Greed, selfishness, and a lack of prescience are what did Detroit in.

/hurr it's the unions
//hurr it's the management


$12/hour is too low for an assembly line worker. The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.
2013-07-19 11:48:36 PM
1 votes:

JolobinSmokin: Big government bad.

Small government good.

Like Detroit.


Bad government on any scale is bad. Government is not our enemy. Bad government is.
2013-07-19 04:54:20 PM
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.


You're saying it's not a coincidence that companies from Houston spend a shiat load of money in lobbyist and PR smearing and obstructing Green Energy?
2013-07-19 04:51:58 PM
1 votes:

Fark It: Detroit got spoiled. Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them. People will always buy American cars. My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour.


Except for the part where the workers in Germany and Japan were actually being paid more and given more perks than their Detroit counterparts.   Pretty much a case study in how the ownership class uses race resentment to play the working class against each other, while they make off like bandits and drive things into the ground.  They got people to hate the auto workers because they were mostly migrated blacks from the South escaping Jim Crow laws and made a nice middle class life for themselves by getting up and going to work every day.     (ie negros got too uppity).
2013-07-19 03:52:42 PM
1 votes:
dwrash:
I disagree... a living wage is subjective and will end up being whatever the politicians say it is... and a way to purchase votes.

If you are that daft you are stuck on an assembly line for your entire.. that is your choice and you need to deal with the fact that the labors of your work just aren't worth that much to the company.. and you WILL be replaced by a robot at some point... so it is up to YOU to prepare yourself for that eventuality.


A living wage is MUCH more than a political talking point and there are a lot of people who are stuck in dead end, low wage jobs. Often these people are poor and/or living in depressed areas and have few opportunities for education and have no money to leave and in places like Detroit there are no better jobs to move up to. The kind of upward mobility you're describing is the exception and not the rule, at least in the United States.
2013-07-19 03:50:29 PM
1 votes:

MyRandomName: Did the city government ever sell off excess office space when the population dropped?


I'm just going to give this a "lol", given how absurdly it misses the scope of the problem.

/There are entire sections of Detroit that are abandoned.  I don't think the government having a few too many offices is much of an issue.
2013-07-19 03:45:37 PM
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: dwrash:
Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.


dwrash doesn't want to be an assembly line worker.  Therefore assembly line workers shouldn't be paid much.  At least, that's how I'm reading this.

/upward mobility is, in many cases, a scam.  Convince people there's a better future if they just suffer now.
2013-07-19 03:44:53 PM
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.


More to the point, it's not a remotely honest argument anyway; someone needs to be doing those jobs, and the capitalist system is built in such a way as to devalue the most important work. If every single person working auto assembly and the like got degrees in software engineering, guess what? They'd pay software engineers the same as auto assembly workers and dishonest people like dwrash would be saying we shouldn't expect any quality of life because it's "not a career". It's all a farking shell game; every working person deserves a living wage regardless.
2013-07-19 03:39:02 PM
1 votes:

DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.


Precisely. The city's population peaked in 1950, and it was the Big Four moving jobs out of the city that led directly to an implosion of its finances. No mayor or city government could have turned it around after losing more than half its population. Three Republican Mayors in a row gave it their best shot after Detroit started losing population, but they, as well as the Democrats who followed them were on the losing side of that tussle.

www.mybudget360.com
2013-07-19 03:36:58 PM
1 votes:

o5iiawah: inflated wages


Good thing we're talking about $12/hour, then, because this is not that.
2013-07-19 03:29:03 PM
1 votes:

JolobinSmokin: Big government bad.

Small government good.

Like Detroit.


Conservative small government:

i.imgur.com
2013-07-19 03:19:07 PM
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: Fark It:
Detroit got spoiled.  Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them.  People will always buy American cars.  My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour.  We'll always have a tax base.  GM has gotten better, both on the labor side and with management (they're producing better cars and start at a reasonable $12 an hour).  But it was too late, and GM isn't going to save Detroit.  There's too much wrong with the city.

Greed, selfishness, and a lack of prescience are what did Detroit in.

/hurr it's the unions
//hurr it's the management

$12/hour is too low for an assembly line worker. The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.


Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

But even the above isn't going to work as most of those jobs will be replaced by robots in the near future... maybe send them to robot repair school?

It behoves this country to provide an upwardly mobile path for every job... better jobs = better salaries = more taxes paid = better government services and so on.
2013-07-19 03:06:54 PM
1 votes:
All I know is when the apocalypse finally comes, I'm taking my family to Detroit, because those guys already know how to survive in a hellhole.
2013-07-19 02:03:09 PM
1 votes:

Voiceofreason01: The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.


Exactly. It's a city built for 2M people, currently occupied by 700K. It was based on an industry that used to need 2M people to support it, but now apparently needs 700K.* Once those high paying/low education jobs were lost, people started looking elsewhere for work. When those people left, the supporting industries also closed up shop. It's a vicious cycle that will probably take 30 years to turn around.

*A little hyperbole, but you know what I'm getting at.
2013-07-19 01:59:12 PM
1 votes:
"There are very few religiously observant white Christians living in large American cities"

Huh? What are we qualifying as large American cities, or "very few" for that matter?

Entire article seems to be an excuse for the author to use "heuristic" in a sentence.
 
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