If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Slate)   In light of Detroit's bankruptcy, people are noting that cities in general are usually terribly governed. The solution? More partisan politics   (slate.com) divider line 107
    More: Followup, Detroit, Mayor of New York, local governments, suburbanites, NIMBY, federal politics, bankruptcy, nonpartisan  
•       •       •

1350 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Jul 2013 at 3:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



107 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-07-19 11:02:37 AM
I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.
 
2013-07-19 11:09:34 AM
Shocking!
 
2013-07-19 11:15:31 AM

DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.


I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.
 
2013-07-19 11:30:23 AM

Voiceofreason01: I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.


To compound the problem, the industry in question was labor intensive and workers didn't need much more than a high school education. So, not only did you have the loss of jobs from foreign competition, you had a loss of jobs from technology, both with no jobs to replace them.

As someone who has been working for a long time to right another, smaller rust belt city, I can say that there's no easy solution. Pittsburgh suffered for 20 years after the collapse of Steel before it was able to start getting back on its feet, but we'll never be the surging metropolis we once were.
 
2013-07-19 11:49:34 AM

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Voiceofreason01: I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

To compound the problem, the industry in question was labor intensive and workers didn't need much more than a high school education. So, not only did you have the loss of jobs from foreign competition, you had a loss of jobs from technology, both with no jobs to replace them.

As someone who has been working for a long time to right another, smaller rust belt city, I can say that there's no easy solution. Pittsburgh suffered for 20 years after the collapse of Steel before it was able to start getting back on its feet, but we'll never be the surging metropolis we once were.


Detroit got spoiled.  Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them.  People will always buy American cars.  My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour.  We'll always have a tax base.  GM has gotten better, both on the labor side and with management (they're producing better cars and start at a reasonable $12 an hour).  But it was too late, and GM isn't going to save Detroit.  There's too much wrong with the city.

Greed, selfishness, and a lack of prescience are what did Detroit in.

/hurr it's the unions
//hurr it's the management
 
2013-07-19 01:35:55 PM

Fark It: start at a reasonable $12 an hour


And that helped fark Detroit. You can't have a functional economy unless people have money to spend. Also it's insultingly low compared to what workers in Japan, Germany, England etc make. Also labor costs aren't even the biggest cost of a car in the first place.
 
2013-07-19 01:51:03 PM
Fark It:
Detroit got spoiled.  Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them.  People will always buy American cars.  My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour.  We'll always have a tax base.  GM has gotten better, both on the labor side and with management (they're producing better cars and start at a reasonable $12 an hour).  But it was too late, and GM isn't going to save Detroit.  There's too much wrong with the city.

Greed, selfishness, and a lack of prescience are what did Detroit in.

/hurr it's the unions
//hurr it's the management


$12/hour is too low for an assembly line worker. The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.
 
2013-07-19 01:59:12 PM
"There are very few religiously observant white Christians living in large American cities"

Huh? What are we qualifying as large American cities, or "very few" for that matter?

Entire article seems to be an excuse for the author to use "heuristic" in a sentence.
 
2013-07-19 02:02:11 PM
I think Canada should buy it.  Give everyone free health care and companies will be dying to open up factories again if they don't have to pay this overhead cost anymore.
 
2013-07-19 02:03:09 PM

Voiceofreason01: The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.


Exactly. It's a city built for 2M people, currently occupied by 700K. It was based on an industry that used to need 2M people to support it, but now apparently needs 700K.* Once those high paying/low education jobs were lost, people started looking elsewhere for work. When those people left, the supporting industries also closed up shop. It's a vicious cycle that will probably take 30 years to turn around.

*A little hyperbole, but you know what I'm getting at.
 
2013-07-19 03:06:54 PM
All I know is when the apocalypse finally comes, I'm taking my family to Detroit, because those guys already know how to survive in a hellhole.
 
2013-07-19 03:09:47 PM
Where is subby reading anything resembling a "solution" in TFA?
 
2013-07-19 03:15:20 PM

bdub77: All I know is when the apocalypse finally comes, I'm taking my family to Detroit, because those guys already know how to survive in a hellhole.


wouldn't you prefer a city that, you know--hasn't had its resources picked clean pre-apoc?
 
2013-07-19 03:19:07 PM

Voiceofreason01: Fark It:
Detroit got spoiled.  Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them.  People will always buy American cars.  My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour.  We'll always have a tax base.  GM has gotten better, both on the labor side and with management (they're producing better cars and start at a reasonable $12 an hour).  But it was too late, and GM isn't going to save Detroit.  There's too much wrong with the city.

Greed, selfishness, and a lack of prescience are what did Detroit in.

/hurr it's the unions
//hurr it's the management

$12/hour is too low for an assembly line worker. The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.


Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

But even the above isn't going to work as most of those jobs will be replaced by robots in the near future... maybe send them to robot repair school?

It behoves this country to provide an upwardly mobile path for every job... better jobs = better salaries = more taxes paid = better government services and so on.
 
2013-07-19 03:20:09 PM

bdub77: All I know is when the apocalypse finally comes, I'm taking my family to Detroit, because those guys already know how to survive in a hellhole.


If I didn't know how to survive in an apocalyptic hellhole, moving to a place where people do is the last thing I'd do.  You don't think they'd welcome an influx of outsiders with open arms, do you?
 
2013-07-19 03:26:12 PM
Big government bad.

Small government good.

Like Detroit.
 
2013-07-19 03:27:43 PM

Voiceofreason01: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.


Hi San Jose!
 
2013-07-19 03:28:27 PM
Per Andy Borowitz:

BREAKING: Detroit receives $18 Billion After Declaring Itself a Bank
 
2013-07-19 03:29:03 PM

JolobinSmokin: Big government bad.

Small government good.

Like Detroit.


Conservative small government:

i.imgur.com
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-07-19 03:29:43 PM
In my area the core city, Boston, is small enough that there is competition between city and suburbs as well as among suburbs. Unless you're poor and black. Then you're stuck.

We have gone the nonpartisan route for municipal elections. That is a good choice. There is some contamination from state and national politics. The mayor wants to run for Senate so he has to prove some D cred. City councilor wants to run for state representative so she starts babbling whatever her wing of the party says. But most of local politics is about local issues. I'm not sure the locals are any worse than the state legislature when it comes to stealing from the future to please the present.
 
2013-07-19 03:30:34 PM
Turn the old broken down auto plants into hydro grow centers and become the nation's legal weed supply.
/Problem solved.
 
2013-07-19 03:31:34 PM
dwrash:  Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

But even the above isn't going to work as most of those jobs will be replaced by robots in the near future... maybe send them to robot repair school?

It behoves this country to provide an upwardly mobile path for every job... better jobs = better salaries = more taxes paid = better government services and so on.


The problem with that logic is that there are only so many upwardly mobile type jobs available and a lot of assembly line work that still needs to be done.  How exactly do you propose that all positions provide an upwardly mobile path?
 
2013-07-19 03:33:48 PM
Personally, moderate R governor plus moderate D legislature is the best way to go.

Moderate R governor keeps the crazy spending in control as well as being sane(r) on social justice, while moderate D legislature doesn't pull crazy stunts re: abortion, church, school prayer, gay marriage, creationism, etc, etc and is able to prevent massive tax cuts from defunding everything.
 
2013-07-19 03:34:30 PM
Cities, in my experience, are run by mini-tyrants and dictators, each trying to enforce their vision of a successful city and the policies to get there on the general populace.

The varying sub-committees and commissions within city government are even worse.
 
2013-07-19 03:34:51 PM

WhyteRaven74: And that helped fark Detroit. You can't have a functional economy unless people have money to spend.


And you cant give out inflated wages if people arent buying your cars because they choose competitor cars which are made better and last longer.  That "Money to spend" doesn't get pulled out of a unicorn's ass.  It comes from consumers, who are willing to pay for a product.

I realize more and more everyday that you have no idea what a job is or how it works.  I suppose in vain one day you'll get it.
 
2013-07-19 03:35:14 PM
I always thought this would be one hell of a econ grad school thesis project, tracking the death of a major city and getting solid data around the reasons for the collapse.
 
2013-07-19 03:35:45 PM

llortcM_yllort: Voiceofreason01: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

Hi San Jose!


The need for  technology might last a little longer than American automobiles.

But if we do decide to revert to an analog/steam/stone age civilization I guess the myriad of tech startup workers in San Jose are out of a job.
 
2013-07-19 03:35:49 PM
Here's the thing about governing in non-cities; THERE'S NOTHING TO GOVERN THERE BECAUSE NO ONE BARELY LIVES THERE.
 
2013-07-19 03:36:58 PM

o5iiawah: inflated wages


Good thing we're talking about $12/hour, then, because this is not that.
 
2013-07-19 03:37:25 PM

meat0918: Cities, in my experience, are run by mini-tyrants and dictators, each trying to enforce their vision of a successful city and the policies to get there on the general populace.

The varying sub-committees and commissions within city government are even worse.


No doubt. The filthiest, muddiest campaigns are local. To see the worst of humanity, step into a campaign meeting for a local water district committee seat or school board opening.
 
2013-07-19 03:37:35 PM

monoski: I always thought this would be one hell of a econ grad school thesis project, tracking the death of a major city and getting solid data around the reasons for the collapse.


I'm pretty sure today's motto for America is "Nothing to see here, folks, move it along.... Oh look! A squirrel!"
 
2013-07-19 03:37:53 PM

meat0918: Cities, in my experience, are run by mini-tyrants and dictators, each trying to enforce their vision of a successful city and the policies to get there on the general populace.

The varying sub-committees and commissions within city government are even worse.


You get two types -- there's the visionaries, and then there are the people who are there because they know somebody.  Usually the latter are less dangerous, but it really depends.
 
2013-07-19 03:38:06 PM

Esc7: llortcM_yllort: Voiceofreason01: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

Hi San Jose!

The need for  technology might last a little longer than American automobiles.

But if we do decide to revert to an analog/steam/stone age civilization I guess the myriad of tech startup workers in San Jose are out of a job.


So the only thing San Jose really has to worry about are rightists.

(Okay, fine, primmies too, but there's only three of them and they're all trying to figure out ways to make vegan nutloaf without electricity)
 
2013-07-19 03:38:38 PM

bdub77: All I know is when the apocalypse finally comes, I'm taking my family to staying away from   Detroit, because those guys already know how to survive   create  a hellhole.

 
2013-07-19 03:39:02 PM

DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.


Precisely. The city's population peaked in 1950, and it was the Big Four moving jobs out of the city that led directly to an implosion of its finances. No mayor or city government could have turned it around after losing more than half its population. Three Republican Mayors in a row gave it their best shot after Detroit started losing population, but they, as well as the Democrats who followed them were on the losing side of that tussle.

www.mybudget360.com
 
2013-07-19 03:39:36 PM
dwrash:
Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.
 
2013-07-19 03:40:12 PM

Esc7: llortcM_yllort: Voiceofreason01: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

Hi San Jose!

The need for  technology might last a little longer than American automobiles.

But if we do decide to revert to an analog/steam/stone age civilization I guess the myriad of tech startup workers in San Jose are out of a job.


Here's the thing: the Big 3 didn't start to crater because people stopped buying cars.  They cratered because people stopped buying cars from them.  You don't need to be near the San Francisco Bay to form a tech startup.  Then again, maybe the lesson isn't "don't depend on one industry" but rather "don't depend on three companies."  In that case, I cede my point and San Jose might not make the best example.
 
2013-07-19 03:40:42 PM
Ugh, an article so full of logic leaps I'm not surprised that it collapsed into a panting and exhausted fallacy at the end.

.tallguywithglasseson:

"Entire article seems to be an excuse for the author to use "heuristic" in a sentence.

Yea.
 
2013-07-19 03:41:30 PM
All the techno has moved to Berlin, too.

What a sad state of affairs.
 
2013-07-19 03:44:28 PM

Voiceofreason01: dwrash:
Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.


I disagree... a living wage is subjective and will end up being whatever the politicians say it is... and a way to purchase votes.

If you are that daft you are stuck on an assembly line for your entire.. that is your choice and you need to deal with the fact that the labors of your work just aren't worth that much to the company.. and you WILL be replaced by a robot at some point... so it is up to YOU to prepare yourself for that eventuality.
 
2013-07-19 03:44:53 PM

Voiceofreason01: That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.


More to the point, it's not a remotely honest argument anyway; someone needs to be doing those jobs, and the capitalist system is built in such a way as to devalue the most important work. If every single person working auto assembly and the like got degrees in software engineering, guess what? They'd pay software engineers the same as auto assembly workers and dishonest people like dwrash would be saying we shouldn't expect any quality of life because it's "not a career". It's all a farking shell game; every working person deserves a living wage regardless.
 
2013-07-19 03:45:31 PM

DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.


If governments had the ability to ever shrink, this wouldn't normally be a problem.  Likewise if pensions and liabilities were funded correctly and not based on overly optimistic projections, this would not be a problem.

The issue is directly due to bad governance.  Promises to retirees (% of salary, years to vest, retirement age) were never properly funded.  This is true of almost every big city and large state.  Ask any actuary or accountant and they will tell you how laughable government finances are kept. Tricks that would often be illegal in non-public entities.

There is also the issue that cities can never drop in size.  This can be seen at all levels of government, where baseline projections always assume growth.  School districts are classic in this regards.  School district I reside in continues to project cost growth even though number of students has been declining for 14 years.

So yes, governance is a direct contribution to Detroit's problems.
 
2013-07-19 03:45:37 PM

Voiceofreason01: dwrash:
Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.


dwrash doesn't want to be an assembly line worker.  Therefore assembly line workers shouldn't be paid much.  At least, that's how I'm reading this.

/upward mobility is, in many cases, a scam.  Convince people there's a better future if they just suffer now.
 
2013-07-19 03:47:04 PM

llortcM_yllort: dwrash:  Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

But even the above isn't going to work as most of those jobs will be replaced by robots in the near future... maybe send them to robot repair school?

It behoves this country to provide an upwardly mobile path for every job... better jobs = better salaries = more taxes paid = better government services and so on.

The problem with that logic is that there are only so many upwardly mobile type jobs available and a lot of assembly line work that still needs to be done.  How exactly do you propose that all positions provide an upwardly mobile path?


Logan's Run had a great solution.
 
2013-07-19 03:47:09 PM

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Voiceofreason01: The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.

Exactly. It's a city built for 2M people, currently occupied by 700K. It was based on an industry that used to need 2M people to support it, but now apparently needs 700K.* Once those high paying/low education jobs were lost, people started looking elsewhere for work. When those people left, the supporting industries also closed up shop. It's a vicious cycle that will probably take 30 years to turn around.

*A little hyperbole, but you know what I'm getting at.


Did the city government ever sell off excess office space when the population dropped?  Did the number of employees ever decrease?  There are ways to deal with declining populations.  Governments just seem to have no clue on how to handle it.
 
2013-07-19 03:49:01 PM

Stone Meadow: Three Republican Mayors in a row gave it their best shot after Detroit started losing population,


Did the City Council ever turn away from democrat rule?  Mayors don't have as much power as people generally believe.
 
2013-07-19 03:50:29 PM

MyRandomName: Did the city government ever sell off excess office space when the population dropped?


I'm just going to give this a "lol", given how absurdly it misses the scope of the problem.

/There are entire sections of Detroit that are abandoned.  I don't think the government having a few too many offices is much of an issue.
 
2013-07-19 03:51:24 PM
Lots of good opportunity to buy if you are interested in long-term investments.
 
2013-07-19 03:52:42 PM
dwrash:
I disagree... a living wage is subjective and will end up being whatever the politicians say it is... and a way to purchase votes.

If you are that daft you are stuck on an assembly line for your entire.. that is your choice and you need to deal with the fact that the labors of your work just aren't worth that much to the company.. and you WILL be replaced by a robot at some point... so it is up to YOU to prepare yourself for that eventuality.


A living wage is MUCH more than a political talking point and there are a lot of people who are stuck in dead end, low wage jobs. Often these people are poor and/or living in depressed areas and have few opportunities for education and have no money to leave and in places like Detroit there are no better jobs to move up to. The kind of upward mobility you're describing is the exception and not the rule, at least in the United States.
 
2013-07-19 03:53:16 PM

DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.


The city water department was required to keep a horse shoe fitter on payroll.

It was pretty much ruined by corruption, unions, and the inability to use growth to support the shiat hole.
 
2013-07-19 03:54:47 PM

MyRandomName: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

If governments had the ability to ever shrink, this wouldn't normally be a problem.  Likewise if pensions and liabilities were funded correctly and not based on overly optimistic projections, this would not be a problem.

The issue is directly due to bad governance.  Promises to retirees (% of salary, years to vest, retirement age) were never properly funded.  This is true of almost every big city and large state.  Ask any actuary or accountant and they will tell you how laughable government finances are kept. Tricks that would often be illegal in non-public entities.

There is also the issue that cities can never drop in size.  This can be seen at all levels of government, where baseline projections always assume growth.  School districts are classic in this regards.  School district I reside in continues to project cost growth even though number of students has been declining for 14 years.

So yes, governance is a direct contribution to Detroit's problems.


I don't really see how any of this is an issue of government, though. This sounds the same as every private company, which also has pensions and pretty much never shrink unless forced to.
 
2013-07-19 03:56:34 PM

Intrepid00: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

The city water department was required to keep a horse shoe fitter on payroll.

It was pretty much ruined by corruption, unions, and the inability to use growth to support the shiat hole.


To use growth to... support... what?

When half the people in your city leave, you have bigger problems than whatever "using growth" is.

But yeah, keep blaming hilarious government inefficiency.  A horse shoe fitter?  That's really funny!  Who cares that it's less than a drop in the bucket?  We can laugh at the city government over that, and that's really all we want to do, right?
 
2013-07-19 03:57:58 PM
Oh wait... is this the point where after decades of being in control of the city the progressives shrug their collective shoulders and wonder how this could have possibly happened?
 
2013-07-19 04:01:08 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: If every single person working auto assembly and the like got degrees in software engineering, guess what? They'd pay software engineers the same as auto assembly workers and dishonest people like dwrash would be saying we shouldn't expect any quality of life because it's "not a career"


So most of them would suck.  And then we'd have even more "HTML is programming"* idiots.  And then the few of us who ACTUALLY knew how to program (and to be fair, there would be more people in this group than before) would be even more in demand fixing the shiat that the idiots wrote.

Wages might go up, they might go down, but we wouldn't be competing against illiterate peasants in China working for $10/day instead of $30/hour and automation wiping out 90% of the demand for workers, which is exactly what happened to manufacturing.  At worst, we'd be competing against those idiots over in India working for $30K/year instead of $100K/year, and we've spent the last few decades importing the best of those.  Seriously, we've been competing against them for years and the only thing that did was cause everyone to start calling themselves developers (as in "I am here to develop a solution to solve your problems for a not-terribly-small fortune") instead of programmers (as in "I am here to be a replaceable trained monkey banging out interchangeable code") and produce a bunch of giant messes of code that all needed to be rewritten (for the previously mentioned not-terribly-small fortune).

*To be fair, HTML + CSS + JS + a couple of back-end services of your choice is programming and it's nitpicky hard annoying programming too.
 
2013-07-19 04:01:35 PM

meyerkev: Personally, moderate R governor plus moderate D legislature is the best way to go.

Moderate R governor keeps the crazy spending in control as well as being sane(r) on social justice, while moderate D legislature doesn't pull crazy stunts re: abortion, church, school prayer, gay marriage, creationism, etc, etc and is able to prevent massive tax cuts from defunding everything.


What is this "Moderate R" you're referring to? Are you talking about those guys that all died off and went extinct back in the 70's?
 
2013-07-19 04:01:50 PM

skylabdown: Oh wait... is this the point where after decades of being in control of the city the progressives shrug their collective shoulders and wonder how this could have possibly happened?


No, this is the point where conservatives gleefully celebrate that awful things are happening in a liberal area.
 
2013-07-19 04:02:52 PM

llortcM_yllort: Here's the thing: the Big 3 didn't start to crater because people stopped buying cars.  They cratered because people stopped buying cars from them.  You don't need to be near the San Francisco Bay to form a tech startup.  Then again, maybe the lesson isn't "don't depend on one industry" but rather "don't depend on three companies."  In that case, I cede my point and San Jose might not make the best example.


That is very gracious and admirable of you.

The Bay Area is a self sustaining reaction for startups.  Its a positive feedback loop.  The culture of the region is self propagating and attracts like minded individuals.  It raises moderate to highly educated people with liberal, if not pretentious values.

In this primordial soup startups form.  Thousands of ideas fire, and every once and a while someone gets lucky, investors see the light, and something innovative appears.  It becomes a tech company and this makes people money and keeps the region flush with cash.

Other areas like Boston and Houston both want to replicate the process and are well on their way, but face the biggest stumbling block: critical mass.  The networks in the Bay Area are expansive and deep and allow the right people to bump up against each other.

The tech startup centers in other states have yet to reach this mass and therefore aren't as attractive.  But they could be someday, and steal the crown from the Bay Area.

All that being said, the Bay area isn't perfect.  Gentrification is running rampant, CoL is seemingly only dwarfed by NYC, and there are pockets of crime that seem to be intractable.  But it will hold the power of Silicon Valley at least for one more generation.
 
2013-07-19 04:04:16 PM

MyRandomName: Stone Meadow: Three Republican Mayors in a row gave it their best shot after Detroit started losing population,

Did the City Council ever turn away from democrat rule?  Mayors don't have as much power as people generally believe.


Sorry, don't know.
 
2013-07-19 04:04:23 PM
Having worked for a city councilman in one of the largest American cities (so that's my street cred), I'd argue that much of the problem is that for decades employees didn't pay enough into the pension system, everyone knew it wasn't enough, but pretended that the pension system would always annually earn 8 to 10 percent (or in other words, the pension system would always beat the market) and that the size of the city workforce would never shrink. As a result, many cities have crippling pension obligations -- a huge chunk of their revenue is must be dumped into their pension systems each year.

Most cities are now requiring employees to pay an appropriate amount into the pension system, but they're still living in fantasy land with how much they project their pension fund will earn each year.
 
2013-07-19 04:13:09 PM

Dafatone: Voiceofreason01: dwrash:
Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.

dwrash doesn't want to be an assembly line worker.  Therefore assembly line workers shouldn't be paid much.  At least, that's how I'm reading this.

/upward mobility is, in many cases, a scam.  Convince people there's a better future if they just suffer now.


In 20 years, there aren't going to be assembly line workers.  Not in the US, not in Europe, not in China, not in Bangladesh.  If your job is turning a wrench, tightening a bolt or inserting tab A into slot B, there will be a robot that can do it better, faster, and cheaper without complaining, taking breaks, sleeping, earning a paycheck or needing medical care.

For a large number tasks, this is already the case - *China* has lost manufacturing jobs over the last 2 decades, FFS.  The automation revolution is just getting rolling.  If people don't up-skill into either technical (engineering, science, math) or soft-skill (marketing, sales, law, bartending, yoga-instructor), they stand little chance of earning any wage in the near future.
 
2013-07-19 04:13:26 PM

DamnYankees: I don't really see how any of this is an issue of government, though. This sounds the same as every private company, which also has pensions and pretty much never shrink unless forced to.


As I've grown older and watched:  local governments, state governments, federal governments, multinational corporations, banks, wall street, auto manufacturers, farmers, unions, police departments, and book clubs, I've learned something.

We humans are colossal bad at running things.  I'm amazed we've made it this far.  The vast majority of people seem to just run on inertia.  Decisions are compromised by hundreds of competing interests that have negative consequences affecting far more people.

If you are part of an organization that is sanely run, you're in the minority.
 
2013-07-19 04:15:13 PM

Intrepid00: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

The city water department was required to keep a horse shoe fitter on payroll.

It was pretty much ruined by corruption, unions, and the inability to use growth to support the shiat hole.


Unions and city management negotiate contracts. To keep the shoe fitter, the union would have given up something in exchange.
 
2013-07-19 04:18:27 PM
OptionC:
In 20 years, there aren't going to be assembly line workers.  Not in the US, not in Europe, not in China, not in Bangladesh.  If your job is turning a wrench, tightening a bolt or inserting tab A into slot B, there will be a robot that can do it better, faster, and cheaper without complaining, taking breaks, sleeping, earning a paycheck or needing medical care.

For a large number tasks, this is already the case - *China* has lost manufacturing jobs over the last 2 decades, FFS.  The automation revolution is just getting rolling.  If people ...


you have to employ those people somewhere and with ever increasing levels of productivity per worker it's going to be hard to claim that you can't afford to pay them a decent wage or to provide a level of public education that supports new high tech jobs. Having a large underclass is bad for society and bad for the economy.
 
2013-07-19 04:23:59 PM

un4gvn666: o5iiawah: inflated wages

Good thing we're talking about $12/hour, then, because this is not that.


He's talking about the money the CEOs take in.
 
2013-07-19 04:24:57 PM

OptionC: Dafatone: Voiceofreason01: dwrash:
Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career.  They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford).  They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.

dwrash doesn't want to be an assembly line worker.  Therefore assembly line workers shouldn't be paid much.  At least, that's how I'm reading this.

/upward mobility is, in many cases, a scam.  Convince people there's a better future if they just suffer now.

In 20 years, there aren't going to be assembly line workers.  Not in the US, not in Europe, not in China, not in Bangladesh.  If your job is turning a wrench, tightening a bolt or inserting tab A into slot B, there will be a robot that can do it better, faster, and cheaper without complaining, taking breaks, sleeping, earning a paycheck or needing medical care.

For a large number tasks, this is already the case - *China* has lost manufacturing jobs over the last 2 decades, FFS.  The automation revolution is just getting rolling.  If people don't up-skill into either technical (engineering, science, math) or soft-skill (marketing, sales, law, bartending, yoga-instructor), they stand little chance of earning any wage in the near future.


No way China has less manufacturing workers than they did in 1993.

They are now running out of workers, however.
 
2013-07-19 04:28:29 PM

OptionC: In 20 years, there aren't going to be assembly line workers.  Not in the US, not in Europe, not in China, not in Bangladesh.  If your job is turning a wrench, tightening a bolt or inserting tab A into slot B, there will be a robot that can do it better, faster, and cheaper without complaining, taking breaks, sleeping, earning a paycheck or needing medical care.

For a large number tasks, this is already the case - *China* has lost manufacturing jobs over the last 2 decades, FFS.  The automation revolution is just getting rolling.  If people ...


We tend to overestimate change in the short run and underestimate it in the long run, so it may not happen in 20 years, but it WILL happen. Which begs the question: what do we do with several billion unemployable people? One answer is a universal minimum livable income. Here are two of my favorite articles on the issue.

Three trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

Warren Mosler, a Deficit Lover With a Following
 
2013-07-19 04:33:07 PM
popcultureblog.dallasnews.com
 
2013-07-19 04:37:29 PM
 
2013-07-19 04:40:42 PM

mcreadyblue: No way China has less manufacturing workers than they did in 1993.


Indeed they have.

At least between 1995 and 2002 they lost 16 million manufacturing jobs and there is no evidence that the trend has reversed.  They have gone from very primitive, small scale manufacturing that required a ton of labor for very little output to relatively modern, large-scale manufacturing with much higher output.    When you move from a model where your steel industry is lots of groups of 10-20 peasants making (terrible) steel in a small local furnace to a modern-ish steel mill, lots of jobs go by the wayside even though you are getting way more steel.

(original paper here)
 
2013-07-19 04:51:43 PM
Ctrl-F "white flight": not found. Epic fail.
 
2013-07-19 04:51:58 PM

Fark It: Detroit got spoiled. Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them. People will always buy American cars. My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour.


Except for the part where the workers in Germany and Japan were actually being paid more and given more perks than their Detroit counterparts.   Pretty much a case study in how the ownership class uses race resentment to play the working class against each other, while they make off like bandits and drive things into the ground.  They got people to hate the auto workers because they were mostly migrated blacks from the South escaping Jim Crow laws and made a nice middle class life for themselves by getting up and going to work every day.     (ie negros got too uppity).
 
2013-07-19 04:54:20 PM

Voiceofreason01: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.


You're saying it's not a coincidence that companies from Houston spend a shiat load of money in lobbyist and PR smearing and obstructing Green Energy?
 
2013-07-19 04:56:39 PM

thornhill: Having worked for a city councilman in one of the largest American cities (so that's my street cred), I'd argue that much of the problem is that for decades employees didn't pay enough into the pension system, everyone knew it wasn't enough, but pretended that the pension system would always annually earn 8 to 10 percent (or in other words, the pension system would always beat the market) and that the size of the city workforce would never shrink. As a result, many cities have crippling pension obligations -- a huge chunk of their revenue is must be dumped into their pension systems each year.
Most cities are now requiring employees to pay an appropriate amount into the pension system, but they're still living in fantasy land with how much they project their pension fund will earn each year.


But it's not just the workers in Detroit. There are many serious issues of corruption in Detroit. Decades worth of absolute theft by the leaders in city government from the people of Detroit, all tidied up by the old "white people be stealin our money" line.

Embezzling funds & trafficking in krugerrands during the Apartheid era (by BLACK leaders), overpaying cronies for real estate and/or allowing them to get city property for dead cheap, overpaying for services from companies owned by their buddies... that's obvious & easy stuff, not the everyday things like Hip Hop mayor taking brand new motocycles meant for the cops for his own entourage.

You've got absolute scum, stealing from vulnerable people, and playing racial politics to make it all okay. It's sick.
 
2013-07-19 04:59:50 PM
Fixing the cities is rather straightforward, but politically unpopular.

1.  End the mortgage interest deduction.
2.  Raise Federal gasoline taxes frozen for twenty years.

Find a politician from either party who'd run on those two.
 
2013-07-19 05:05:25 PM

hurdboy: 1.  End the mortgage interest deduction.


How would instantly cutting property values by 20% (or more) and putting millions more homeowners underwater help anything?  I agree that the mortgage interest deduction is bad policy, but you can't unring a bell

hurdboy: 2.  Raise Federal gasoline taxes frozen for twenty years.


Yeah, that's really going to help Detroit.
 
2013-07-19 05:10:22 PM

Dafatone: But yeah, keep blaming hilarious government inefficiency.  A horse shoe fitter?  That's really funny!  Who cares that it's less than a drop in the bucket?  We can laugh at the city government over that, and that's really all we want to do, right?


No raindrop is to believe it is to blame for the flood.

mcreadyblue: Unions and city management negotiate contracts. To keep the shoe fitter, the union would have given up something in exchange.


and thats where you have the fault of the city to hold the line.  at some point you have nothing left to give in exchange and cant go tit for tat.  Cuts have to be made and the population (ergo tax base) graph above shows as such.
 
2013-07-19 05:12:08 PM
Right, Detroit sucks because blacks run it, not because of a bought and paid for War On The American Worker.
 
2013-07-19 05:12:44 PM

legion_of_doo: thornhill: Having worked for a city councilman in one of the largest American cities (so that's my street cred), I'd argue that much of the problem is that for decades employees didn't pay enough into the pension system, everyone knew it wasn't enough, but pretended that the pension system would always annually earn 8 to 10 percent (or in other words, the pension system would always beat the market) and that the size of the city workforce would never shrink. As a result, many cities have crippling pension obligations -- a huge chunk of their revenue is must be dumped into their pension systems each year.
Most cities are now requiring employees to pay an appropriate amount into the pension system, but they're still living in fantasy land with how much they project their pension fund will earn each year.

But it's not just the workers in Detroit. There are many serious issues of corruption in Detroit. Decades worth of absolute theft by the leaders in city government from the people of Detroit, all tidied up by the old "white people be stealin our money" line.

Embezzling funds & trafficking in krugerrands during the Apartheid era (by BLACK leaders), overpaying cronies for real estate and/or allowing them to get city property for dead cheap, overpaying for services from companies owned by their buddies... that's obvious & easy stuff, not the everyday things like Hip Hop mayor taking brand new motocycles meant for the cops for his own entourage.

You've got absolute scum, stealing from vulnerable people, and playing racial politics to make it all okay. It's sick.


I cannot comment on it, and however bad it might have been, I doubt it ultimately had much influencing and the city's current $9 billion in pension and retiree health care debt obligations.

As I outlined, the reason cities get into pension black holes is pretty straightforward on common. Most cities are carrying a ton of pension debt, but unlike Detroit, still have enough tax revenue and workers paying into the system to get by.
 
2013-07-19 05:13:16 PM

o5iiawah: Dafatone: But yeah, keep blaming hilarious government inefficiency.  A horse shoe fitter?  That's really funny!  Who cares that it's less than a drop in the bucket?  We can laugh at the city government over that, and that's really all we want to do, right?

No raindrop is to believe it is to blame for the flood.


Yeah, just keep running with giant farking platitudes.  That'll help.
 
2013-07-19 05:14:05 PM
No cities economic situation should be dominated by one industry. The outsourcing of automotive manufacturing and related industry was unavoidable, but unappreciated until it was too late. No single party or politician is responsible for that.
 
2013-07-19 05:16:31 PM

hurdboy: Fixing the cities is rather straightforward, but politically unpopular.

1.  End the mortgage interest deduction.
2.  Raise Federal gasoline taxes frozen for twenty years.

Find a politician from either party who'd run on those two.


Michigan already has one of the highest gas taxes of any state (#6) which is 3x as much as the federal tax. Not terribly pertinent to your argument, but just goes to show how it doesn't matter how much you tax people if you have no idea how to spend it. You could give Detroit $100,000,000 and a better run city like Seattle or Austin and you'd probably get 2x your value out of it. It's a city that has been mismanaged for about 70 years, not just the last two.

/lived in it for 5 - 6 and Livernois
 
2013-07-19 05:16:48 PM

legion_of_doo: But it's not just the workers in Detroit. There are many serious issues of corruption in Detroit. Decades worth of absolute theft by the leaders in city government from the people of Detroit, all tidied up by the old "white people be stealin our money" line.

Embezzling funds & trafficking in krugerrands during the Apartheid era (by BLACK leaders), overpaying cronies for real estate and/or allowing them to get city property for dead cheap, overpaying for services from companies owned by their buddies... that's obvious & easy stuff, not the everyday things like Hip Hop mayor taking brand new motocycles meant for the cops for his own entourage.

You've got absolute scum, stealing from vulnerable people, and playing racial politics to make it all okay. It's sick.


What you describe is entirely accurate, but I would argue that it's a symptom rather than the disease.   The city was in it's death rattles, it's not a surprise the vultures and carrion came along to pick at the carcass.
 
2013-07-19 05:19:35 PM

error 303: No cities economic situation should be dominated by one industry. The outsourcing of automotive manufacturing and related industry was unavoidable, but unappreciated until it was too late. No single party or politician is responsible for that.


Hey, we also have a thriving crime industry, panhandling industry and pothole industry.

/CSB - Back when I lived in the D, I didn't eat half of my Subway so I wrapped it up to give to the 'homesless' guy on the corner of I-75 and 8mi asking for 'food/change'. He grabbed it, looked at it and threw it at my car as I drove away. /CSB off
 
2013-07-19 05:20:36 PM
Detroit after the bankruptcy announcement via FoxNews:

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-19 05:52:21 PM
Overpaid public employees with bloated pensions angry about the pensions they got through bribing public officials who were using tax dollars based on a thriving auto industry. Let Detroit burn.
 
2013-07-19 06:06:26 PM
It's pretty simple. People that make it onto city councils are usually half retarded. Same goes for state legislatures.
 
2013-07-19 06:11:22 PM

OptionC: How would instantly cutting property values by 20% (or more) and putting millions more homeowners underwater help anything?  I agree that the mortgage interest deduction is bad policy, but you can't unring a bell


You can stop from ringing it again.  This is a sad leftover from history.

OptionC: eah, that's really going to help Detroit.


Note that I said, "cities," not "Detroit."  You'd run out of fingers if you were trying to place the blame, there.

Policies dating back to the Ford Administration have led to the decline of US cities.

MichiganFTL: Michigan already has one of the highest gas taxes of any state (#6) which is 3x as much as the federal tax. Not terribly pertinent to your argument, but just goes to show how it doesn't matter how much you tax people if you have no idea how to spend it. You could give Detroit $100,000,000 and a better run city like Seattle or Austin and you'd probably get 2x your value out of it. It's a city that has been mismanaged for about 70 years, not just the last two.


Sure, it's a long-bulding problem.  But there's not a single politician who's anywhere near a solution.  Both major parties are stuck on stupid economic promises that, "left," or "right," are leading to suburban sprawl nearly nationwide.

/FWIW, I'd go to an "inner-city" if I found a gig
//Though convincing Mrs. Hurdboy might take a lot of work.
 
2013-07-19 06:15:53 PM

meyerkev: Personally, moderate R governor plus moderate D legislature is the best way to go.

Moderate R governor keeps the crazy spending in control as well as being sane(r) on social justice, while moderate D legislature doesn't pull crazy stunts re: abortion, church, school prayer, gay marriage, creationism, etc, etc and is able to prevent massive tax cuts from defunding everything.


The Republicans haven't been fiscally responsible in two decades.
 
2013-07-19 06:19:38 PM
As opposed to well-governed places like Spittle County?
 
2013-07-19 06:26:24 PM

Mike Chewbacca: meyerkev: Personally, moderate R governor plus moderate D legislature is the best way to go.

Moderate R governor keeps the crazy spending in control as well as being sane(r) on social justice, while moderate D legislature doesn't pull crazy stunts re: abortion, church, school prayer, gay marriage, creationism, etc, etc and is able to prevent massive tax cuts from defunding everything.

The Republicans haven't been fiscally responsible in two decades since Ike.


Made more better.
 
2013-07-19 06:34:19 PM

meyerkev: Personally, moderate R governor plus moderate D legislature is the best way to go.

Moderate R governor keeps the crazy spending in control as well as being sane(r) on social justice, while moderate D legislature doesn't pull crazy stunts re: abortion, church, school prayer, gay marriage, creationism, etc, etc and is able to prevent massive tax cuts from defunding everything.


and on the municipal level, a moderate D mayor with a R majority city council has served my city well. I like your plan.
 
2013-07-19 07:07:25 PM

Mike Chewbacca: meyerkev: Personally, moderate R governor plus moderate D legislature is the best way to go.

Moderate R governor keeps the crazy spending in control as well as being sane(r) on social justice, while moderate D legislature doesn't pull crazy stunts re: abortion, church, school prayer, gay marriage, creationism, etc, etc and is able to prevent massive tax cuts from defunding everything.

The Republicans haven't been fiscally responsible in two decades.


From what I've seen, (at least at the state level), Democrats cause massive, massive deficits by creating these massive pie-in-the-sky spending plans, while Republicans cause deficits by saying things like "Let's get rid of income tax and have no way to make up the spending".

So the R governor can say "Fark you" when the D's show up with their plans, and the R's are in no position to make up for their plans.
 
2013-07-19 07:18:26 PM

meyerkev: Mike Chewbacca: meyerkev: Personally, moderate R governor plus moderate D legislature is the best way to go.

Moderate R governor keeps the crazy spending in control as well as being sane(r) on social justice, while moderate D legislature doesn't pull crazy stunts re: abortion, church, school prayer, gay marriage, creationism, etc, etc and is able to prevent massive tax cuts from defunding everything.

The Republicans haven't been fiscally responsible in two decades.

From what I've seen, (at least at the state level), Democrats cause massive, massive deficits by creating these massive pie-in-the-sky spending plans, while Republicans cause deficits by saying things like "Let's get rid of income tax and have no way to make up the spending".

So the R governor can say "Fark you" when the D's show up with their plans, and the R's are in no position to make up for their plans.


Yeah, that worked out so well for California.
 
2013-07-19 09:16:17 PM

mcreadyblue: Intrepid00: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

The city water department was required to keep a horse shoe fitter on payroll.

It was pretty much ruined by corruption, unions, and the inability to use growth to support the shiat hole.

Unions and city management negotiate contracts. To keep the shoe fitter, the union would have given up something in exchange.



LOL..your absolutely correct...city politicians get paid in votes and the rest of the public gets hosed. FDR was right about public employee unions
 
2013-07-19 09:30:22 PM
Oakland County has the same regional issues as Detroit, but oh, look, the factories all moved out there. If you are a worker for the UAW, getting paid decent money, do you want your plant in Detroit or Oakland County? Pretty simple decision right there.

Detroit's corruption might not be the only issue, but it's a HUGE issue. It's epic terribad. It's not even a race issue except for the race card playing farkers who are stealing from other Detroiters.

/If you got an "R" next to your name, and you're running in Detroit, you are probably running for your life. Just sayin.
 
2013-07-19 09:31:42 PM

meyerkev: Personally, moderate R governor plus moderate D legislature is the best way to go.

Moderate R governor keeps the crazy spending in control as well as being sane(r) on social justice, while moderate D legislature doesn't pull crazy stunts re: abortion, church, school prayer, gay marriage, creationism, etc, etc and is able to prevent massive tax cuts from defunding everything.


Nelson Rockefeller was a farking nightmare for New York. Idiotic drug laws, hogwild unaccountable spending, corruption...bleh. Same for Pataki more recently.

New York's had a lot of corrupt and incompetent governance over the centuries, but the New York-as-punchline-for-fail era really began with Rockefeller and John Lindsay, both moderate Republicans.
 
2013-07-19 09:40:31 PM

Voiceofreason01: I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.


I just have to drive through Fall River and New Bedford to see that.
 
2013-07-19 11:48:36 PM

JolobinSmokin: Big government bad.

Small government good.

Like Detroit.


Bad government on any scale is bad. Government is not our enemy. Bad government is.
 
2013-07-20 01:44:00 AM

Arkanaut: Where is subby reading anything resembling a "solution" in TFA?


"American cities across the board suffer from a lack of partisan competition that undermines democratic accountability." Did you read the first paragraph?
 
2013-07-20 01:58:28 AM
cdn.pjmedia.com
 
2013-07-20 09:10:10 AM

ghare: Bad government on any scale is bad.


It would then follow that smaller bad government is, as a rule, less bad.

Government is not our enemy. Bad government is.

And let me guess: the way to prevent governments from going bad is to let them continue to grow in size and power without any supporting basis in reality (the central government in particular), otherwise you're an anti-government nutcase teahadist and furthermore somalia.
 
2013-07-20 01:07:46 PM
Most major cities are run by democrats.
 
2013-07-20 01:13:42 PM
In 1960 Detroit was run by a republican mayor and had the highest per capita GDP in the country for large cities. Since then, it has been run by democrats and inexorably straight into the ground.
 
2013-07-20 01:36:29 PM

SlothB77: In 1960 Detroit was run by a republican mayor and had the highest per capita GDP in the country for large cities. Since then,

it has been run by democrats and the Big Four pulled hundreds of thousands of middle class jobs out, driving it inexorably straight into the ground.

There...set the record straight.
 
2013-07-20 03:14:46 PM

Stone Meadow: SlothB77: In 1960 Detroit was run by a republican mayor and had the highest per capita GDP in the country for large cities. Since then, it has been run by democrats and the Big Four pulled hundreds of thousands of middle class jobs out, driving it inexorably straight into the ground.

There...set the record straight.


You crossed out the part about democrats.  Good, because none of this is their fault.....it's the fault of robots and Japanese car companies.
 
2013-07-20 03:25:19 PM

another cultural observer: Stone Meadow: SlothB77: In 1960 Detroit was run by a republican mayor and had the highest per capita GDP in the country for large cities. Since then, it has been run by democrats and the Big Four pulled hundreds of thousands of middle class jobs out, driving it inexorably straight into the ground.

There...set the record straight.

You crossed out the part about democrats.  Good, because none of this is their fault.....it's the fault of robots and Japanese car companies.


This has been beat to death in uncountable studies from both sides of the political isle. Detroit's history of corruption notwithstanding, no political approach could have successfully addressed dropping from 1.8 million to 700,000 without a commensurate reduction in land area, public safety obligations and loss of tax base. If you think otherwise, show us your homework.
 
2013-07-20 03:54:38 PM

another cultural observer: it's the fault of robots


yes those cursed machines!  if we all sowed the fields with crude tools and carried things on our backs like we did 700 years ago, things would be fantastic!
 
Displayed 107 of 107 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report