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(Today)   Business owners: We demand a stop to the hiring of illegal workers. Government: Ok, we'll make the E-Verify system mandatory for all. Business owners: This sucks, can we turn it off already?   (today.com) divider line 147
    More: Obvious, businesses, emerging technologies, National Federation of Independent Business, workers, small businesses  
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3497 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Jul 2013 at 4:05 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



147 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-07-18 02:06:21 PM  
Funny, isn't it.  they demand a verification system, but then don't want to use it when it's not free to operate.
 
2013-07-18 02:21:31 PM  
It sounds like you verify that they have a card, then plug the potential employees SIN into a webpage for verification against a federal database.

Sounds like about a 5 minute job, tops.  How much farking simpler could it get for an employer?
 
2013-07-18 02:24:54 PM  

unyon: It sounds like you verify that they have a card, then plug the potential employees SIN into a webpage for verification against a federal database.

Sounds like about a 5 minute job, tops.  How much farking simpler could it get for an employer?


The feds do it for them, of course.  and for free.
 
2013-07-18 02:26:35 PM  
Not only is e-verify a horrible idea, but business owners/managers shouldn't be immigration cops. If you advertise for a job, and someone shows up, and you hire him, I don't see that you've committed a crime. It's not your fault that the government isn't doing its job.
 
2013-07-18 02:26:41 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Funny, isn't it.  they demand a verification system, but then don't want to use it when it's not free to operate.


A quick check of the  E-Verify site indicates that in fact it is free to operate.
 
2013-07-18 02:32:26 PM  

DrPainMD: Not only is e-verify a horrible idea, but business owners/managers shouldn't be immigration cops. If you advertise for a job, and someone shows up, and you hire him, I don't see that you've committed a crime. It's not your fault that the government isn't doing its job.


And if someone offers to sell you some electronics off the back of a truck, you're under no obligation to determine if that is in fact stolen property. It's not your fault that the government's not doing its job.

// and in both cases, there's a financial incentive for you to not care
 
2013-07-18 04:00:34 PM  

DrPainMD: Not only is e-verify a horrible idea, but business owners/managers shouldn't be immigration cops. If you advertise for a job, and someone shows up, and you hire him, I don't see that you've committed a crime. It's not your fault that the government isn't doing its job.


Libertarian logic?
 
2013-07-18 04:08:44 PM  

clancifer: DrPainMD: Not only is e-verify a horrible idea, but business owners/managers shouldn't be immigration cops. If you advertise for a job, and someone shows up, and you hire him, I don't see that you've committed a crime. It's not your fault that the government isn't doing its job.

Libertarian logic?


Sorry, but those two words don't go together.
 
2013-07-18 04:10:23 PM  
"Some smaller companies say that meeting employment verification requirements would be costly and add to their uncertainty, which has hampered job creation. "

Fark Translation:

We are having a tough time hiring illegals and might have to pay better wages.
 
2013-07-18 04:13:48 PM  
I remember something a while back about Republicans backing E-Verify for everyone, and I'd assumed that meant they had stock in the company.
 
2013-07-18 04:17:38 PM  

Alphax: I remember something a while back about Republicans backing E-Verify for everyone, and I'd assumed that meant they had stock in the company.


Well they supported it when they thought it would be sticking it to the messicans.  But now they realize there it may hold employers accountable for hiring messicans... so they don't like it anymore.
 
2013-07-18 04:17:39 PM  

mrlewish: "Some smaller companies say that meeting employment verification requirements would be costly and add to their uncertainty, which has hampered job creation. "

Fark Translation:

We are having a tough time hiring illegals and might have to pay better wages.


Aaaaand we have a winner!
 
2013-07-18 04:18:50 PM  

mrlewish: "Some smaller companies say that meeting employment verification requirements would be costly and add to their uncertainty, which has hampered job creation. "

Fark Translation:

We are having a tough time hiring illegals and might have to pay better wages.


and we're done here.  Ok, folks, next thread!
 
2013-07-18 04:19:17 PM  
Some smaller companies say that meeting employment verification requirements would be costly and add to their uncertainty, which has hampered job creation.

Any company that says something like that isn't small..  But I don't give a shiat, get rid of the e-verify and institute half of a million dollar fines per infraction and a whislteblower line that pays out 5%.  It'll sort itself out.
 
2013-07-18 04:20:14 PM  
If the Waltons and the farmers hate it, I think I might have a soft spot for the idea.
 
2013-07-18 04:20:26 PM  

DrPainMD: Not only is e-verify a horrible idea, but business owners/managers shouldn't be immigration cops. If you advertise for a job, and someone shows up, and you hire him, I don't see that you've committed a crime. It's not your fault that the government isn't doing its job.


Except of course that whole issue w/ verifying employee payment for taxes....  It is the governments job to know who you're paying and how much.
 
2013-07-18 04:21:05 PM  

DrPainMD: Not only is e-verify a horrible idea, but business owners/managers shouldn't be immigration cops. If you advertise for a job, and someone shows up, and you hire him, I don't see that you've committed a crime. It's not your fault that the government isn't doing its job.


You sound like you want illegal immigrants to take jobs from you, your wife, your kids, your family and friends. Why don't you go back to Mexico with Romney?
 
2013-07-18 04:21:25 PM  
Business owners: We demand a stop to the hiring of illegal workers.

IIRC it was never the business owners that demanded that E-Verify be implemented, it's more the old-school, law-and-order conservatives (and plenty of Third Way Democrats) who demanded this kind of thing.  I'm not a big fan or our current immigration system, but it's pointless to misrepresent where people's interests lie.
 
2013-07-18 04:22:37 PM  

DrPainMD: Not only is e-verify a horrible idea, but business owners/managers shouldn't be immigration cops. If you advertise for a job, and someone shows up, and you hire him, I don't see that you've committed a crime. It's not your fault that the government isn't doing its job.


I just want to know why you think it's a horrible idea first.
 
2013-07-18 04:22:53 PM  

Dr Dreidel: DrPainMD: Not only is e-verify a horrible idea, but business owners/managers shouldn't be immigration cops. If you advertise for a job, and someone shows up, and you hire him, I don't see that you've committed a crime. It's not your fault that the government isn't doing its job.

And if someone offers to sell you some electronics off the back of a truck, you're under no obligation to determine if that is in fact stolen property. It's not your fault that the government's not doing its job.

// and in both cases, there's a financial incentive for you to not care


oh, this sounds fun can I play...

If I put a craigslist personal ad up, and then someone shows up, I sleep with them.  I am under no obligation to determine if they are of legal age.  It's not my fault that the government (or Chris Hansen) is not doing its job.
 
2013-07-18 04:23:38 PM  

DrPainMD: Not only is e-verify a horrible idea, but business owners/managers shouldn't be immigration cops. If you advertise for a job, and someone shows up, and you hire him, I don't see that you've committed a crime. It's not your fault that the government isn't doing its job.


Yeah, you usually straddle the line, but this one's so stupid that it's obviously waiting for bites. 1.5/10, I'm feeling generous.
 
2013-07-18 04:25:00 PM  

Alphax: I remember something a while back about Republicans backing E-Verify for everyone, and I'd assumed that meant they had stock in the company.


I think it was part of the national ID system proposed after 11 Sept 01.

Which actually would have been a good idea.
 
2013-07-18 04:26:37 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: I think it was part of the national ID system proposed after 11 Sept 01.

Which actually would have been a good idea.


You know who else favored a national ID system?
 
2013-07-18 04:27:09 PM  
So.... ID for voters = good, ID for employees = bad?
 
2013-07-18 04:29:28 PM  

unyon: It sounds like you verify that they have a card, then plug the potential employees SIN into a webpage for verification against a federal database.

Sounds like about a 5 minute job, tops.  How much farking simpler could it get for an employer?


That's exactly how it works. I had to do it when I got this job. Of course, me and the HR person had no idea WTF we were looking for because my card was given to me in '02, so looks different then they base example. Thankfully they had other examples hidden on the site.
 
2013-07-18 04:33:38 PM  

GoldSpider: Dwight_Yeast: I think it was part of the national ID system proposed after 11 Sept 01.

Which actually would have been a good idea.

You know who else favored a national ID system?

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
/and before you say "SS doesn't have a picture" and "Passport isn't mandatory", they are still national ID systems
 
2013-07-18 04:34:24 PM  
A small business would likely pay about $3,000 or less to meet E-Verify rules, according to an estimate from Jeff Vining, an analyst at tech research firm Gartner. Vining's ballpark estimate includes dedicated equipment, software and payroll system modifications.

According to Wiki:
  E-Verify is an Internet-based, free program run by the United States government that compares information from an employee's Employment Eligibility Verification Form I-9 to data from U.S. government records. If the information matches, that employee is eligible to work in the United States.

What dedicated equipment, software, and payroll system modifications are they talking about?
 
2013-07-18 04:38:17 PM  

GoldSpider: Dwight_Yeast: I think it was part of the national ID system proposed after 11 Sept 01.

Which actually would have been a good idea.

You know who else favored a national ID system?


The Republican party?
 
2013-07-18 04:39:36 PM  
There are definitely problems with E-Verify giving false positives (saying somebody can legally work when they can't) and false negatives (saying somebody can't legally work when they can). Since there are a small number of ways one could be legally working in the country, the search of the associated databases detailing the people who satisfy each way is trivial. The problem is the underlying databases are incomplete and not current. Fix that, and the problem is done.
 
2013-07-18 04:39:42 PM  
A good friend of mine does HR for a large (nationwide) construction firm and has been using eVerify for years.

The system is a farking joke. Undocumented workers have an entire underground economy that can, for between $500 and $1500, provide you with easily passable fake documentation backed up with someone's real ID. The deal is:

- She cannot reject documentation unless the signs of forgery are glaringly obvious. Like a xerox copy of an ID that has been laminated. Most of the forged documents are of a quality that rejecting them opens the company up to discrimination lawsuits (which the underground false ID economy goes to great pains to educate their customers about).

- Since it is basically impossible for her to reject documents based on their quality, she must accept all the information on them as valid. So a Guatemalan guy who doesn't speak a word of English can walk in with an ID that says his name is Marty O'Donald, appear 15 years younger than the ID states and shows a work/credit history going back 20 years in the United States... and she must accept all of this information as valid. Again, if she rejects the application, some shady lawyer will sue the company for discrimination. The company knows full well that they would win such a suit, but the time/cost involved in defending themselves makes it far easier to just have a policy of accepting all documents and applications without question.

- Of course, all of these guys pass the eVerify system! Their IDs are linked to American citizens. The only way she can disqualify an applicant based on their legal immigration status is if they fail the eVerify check, and since all the documents are backed up by clean ID information, that isn't a very high bar to pass. eVerify also indemnifies the company from hiring illegal workers, making it *far* more feasible for them to accept clearly illegal documentation and identification through the rest of the hiring process.

The worst part of this whole thing is that she gets 2-3 requests per week from the poor bastards that have some illegal immigrant working under their ID info. They go to file their taxes or they get a letter from the IRS telling them that they have $40k extra income from that full-time drywalling job they have clear across the country.
 
2013-07-18 04:42:08 PM  

Unoriginal_Username: unyon: It sounds like you verify that they have a card, then plug the potential employees SIN into a webpage for verification against a federal database.

Sounds like about a 5 minute job, tops.  How much farking simpler could it get for an employer?

That's exactly how it works. I had to do it when I got this job. Of course, me and the HR person had no idea WTF we were looking for because my card was given to me in '02, so looks different then they base example. Thankfully they had other examples hidden on the site.


I just went ahead and got a new card, as the one I had issued in 1979 drew lots of questions every time I had to present it to someone.

/Independent contractor every client wants to see my card these days.
 
2013-07-18 04:43:07 PM  

theknuckler_33: What dedicated equipment, software, and payroll system modifications are they talking about?


A cheap desktop, Windows w/ IE, and training your HR person to use E-Verify could cost upwards of $3000 over 10 years!
 
2013-07-18 04:45:49 PM  

DrPainMD: Not only is e-verify a horrible idea, but business owners/managers shouldn't be immigration cops. If you advertise for a job, and someone shows up, and you hire him, I don't see that you've committed a crime. It's not your fault that the government isn't doing its job.


Except that the government doesn't KNOW that you've hired that person unless someone checks their citizenship status.

Which is exactly what E-Verify is doing.

Or do you think the government should do Arizona-style workplace sweeps? Seriously, I'm confused about how we verify that illegals aren't working at American businesses if we don't check.
 
2013-07-18 04:47:43 PM  

karmaceutical: Alphax: I remember something a while back about Republicans backing E-Verify for everyone, and I'd assumed that meant they had stock in the company.

Well they supported it when they thought it would be sticking it to the messicans.  But now they realize there it may hold employers accountable for hiring messicans... so they don't like it anymore.


Just look at Arizona. They pass an employer sanctions law, Joe uses it to justify it for his workplace roundups, and while many people get arrested, not a single AZ business owner has been cited for hiring illegals.
 
2013-07-18 04:48:32 PM  

Unoriginal_Username: That's exactly how it works. I had to do it when I got this job. Of course, me and the HR person had no idea WTF we were looking for because my card was given to me in '02, so looks different then they base example.


What card? Green card?
 
2013-07-18 04:48:58 PM  
E-Verify would probably actually work, which is why businesses (and both parties) will oppose it.  Despite words to the contrary, the business community wants higher levels of immigration, both legal and illegal, and does not want any enforcement.

Most people talking about the Senate immigration bill focus on the pathway to citizenship part, but neglect the part where it ramps up the guest worker program and locks in a 50% increase in the amount of legal immigration, most of which is unskilled.

This only makes sense if you think the greatest problem with America today is that wages are too high.
 
2013-07-18 04:49:00 PM  

dr-shotgun: The worst part of this whole thing is that she gets 2-3 requests per week from the poor bastards that have some illegal immigrant working under their ID info. They go to file their taxes or they get a letter from the IRS telling them that they have $40k extra income from that full-time drywalling job they have clear across the country.


Easy fix if you find that happening.

Change direct deposit to your account... or ask that the checks be sent to your "new" address.
 
2013-07-18 04:53:20 PM  

12349876: GoldSpider: Dwight_Yeast: I think it was part of the national ID system proposed after 11 Sept 01.

Which actually would have been a good idea.

You know who else favored a national ID system?
[encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 288x175]
[encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 180x240]
/and before you say "SS doesn't have a picture" and "Passport isn't mandatory", they are still national ID systems


I WANT a national ID. I want a national Driver's License, one that people don't need a chart to check against when I want a beer. I want a national CCW as well, one that has reciprocity with all of the states that have CCW laws, and is still not accepted where they don't exist. I have no problem with that, it would all be better than the move-to-a-new-state-and-have-a-whole-new-set-of-ID-rules thing that happened when I moved here.

Of course, I don't care if the government "tracks" me with it, they can track me with my current ID just fine anyway...
 
2013-07-18 04:55:20 PM  

theknuckler_33: A small business would likely pay about $3,000 or less to meet E-Verify rules, according to an estimate from Jeff Vining, an analyst at tech research firm Gartner. Vining's ballpark estimate includes dedicated equipment, software and payroll system modifications.

According to Wiki:
  E-Verify is an Internet-based, free program run by the United States government that compares information from an employee's Employment Eligibility Verification Form I-9 to data from U.S. government records. If the information matches, that employee is eligible to work in the United States.

What dedicated equipment, software, and payroll system modifications are they talking about?


Well, they invented these computer things a few years back, if you're still hand writing paychecks, it's time to upgrade....  :-)
 
2013-07-18 04:56:18 PM  

dr-shotgun: - Since it is basically impossible for her to reject documents based on their quality, she must accept all the information on them as valid. So a Guatemalan guy who doesn't speak a word of English can walk in with an ID that says his name is Marty O'Donald, appear 15 years younger than the ID states and shows a work/credit history going back 20 years in the United States... and she must accept all of this information as valid. Again, if she rejects the application, some shady lawyer will sue the company for discrimination. The company knows full well that they would win such a suit, but the time/cost involved in defending themselves makes it far easier to just have a policy of accepting all documents and applications without question.


Exactly. And she HAS to hire him. She can't look at Mr Marty O'Donald and mention to her supervisor that maybe not everything is A-OK with his documentation. They have to rubberstamp his hire immediately or get sued because illegal workers are really into involving the legal system in their employment issues.

This is also why requiring ID for alcohol purchases is silly. When McLovin shows up with his obviously fake ID, the clerk MUST sell to him or face the possibility of a lawsuit.
 
2013-07-18 04:58:26 PM  

Captain Dan: E-Verify would probably actually work, which is why businesses (and both parties) will oppose it.  Despite words to the contrary, the business community wants higher levels of immigration, both legal and illegal, and does not want any enforcement.


I thought it was hilarious that Mike Lee tried to amend the Senate bill to allow people to not use E-Verify for family jobs like maids, nannies, and family cooks. Talk about purposely funneling people into servicing the rich.
 
2013-07-18 04:59:00 PM  
We can't do this, it could hamper job creation...

We'd like to comply, but find that doing so stifles job creation...

I want to support my community and I want to create jobs, but following your legislation makes me able to do only one...

Uncertainty is always around us, which limits our job creating resolve...

Boo
 
2013-07-18 05:00:58 PM  
but i thought they took er jerbs?
 
2013-07-18 05:12:17 PM  
Looks like DrPainMD just trolled the holy shiat out of this thread.
 
2013-07-18 05:13:18 PM  

dr-shotgun: Again, if she rejects the application, some shady lawyer will sue the company for discrimination. The company knows full well that they would win such a suit, but the time/cost involved in defending themselves makes it far easier to just have a policy of accepting all documents and applications without question.


I'm so sick of these shady lawyers constantly filing unwinnable lawsuits on behalf of undocumented immigrants who don't have any money. I'm sure that happens literally all the time.
 
2013-07-18 05:15:33 PM  
"I've been blown away by how much the immigration policy has been kicking us in the teeth," Salazar said previously. "In Silicon Valley it's a war for talent-an all-out knuckle-drag war."

I wish some investigatory journalist would test this. Send 40-, 50-, or 60-year-old Americans to these supposedly high-tech-employee-deprived companies. Pick people (or fabricate them) who'd be an ideal fit for the requirements of the position. See how many of them get offers. If the companies are really as strapped for talent as they claim, they'll try to hire them immediately. If they're just out to hire cheap young foreigners they can exploit and are lying about their inability to find talent here, then they'll take a pass.
 
2013-07-18 05:15:39 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: So.... ID for voters = good, ID for employees = bad?


ID for voters helps Republicans restrict voting rights from minorities. ID for employees keeps Republican-supporting businesses from hiring immigrants.

Simple, no?
 
2013-07-18 05:16:15 PM  

Serious Black: I thought it was hilarious that Mike Lee tried to amend the Senate bill to allow people to not use E-Verify for family jobs like maids, nannies, and family cooks. Talk about purposely funneling people into servicing the rich.


The Senate bill, if enacted, would lead to significantly higher wealth inequality as well as an upwards redistribution of wealth.  The political valence of its support is completely inverted.

This is one of the few times where I'm grateful for the uncouth elements within the Republican Party, who may torpedo a bad bill for the wrong reasons.
 
2013-07-18 05:17:00 PM  

phritz: I'm so sick of these shady lawyers constantly filing unwinnable lawsuits on behalf of undocumented immigrants who don't have any money. I'm sure that happens literally all the time.


I'm going to get an ID that says I'm a black woman. If my next employer looks at my pasty, neckbearded face and even hesitates to give me the job I'm going to sue them for all their worth. What was I thinking with all that college and interview prep, all I needed was an obviously fake ID.
 
2013-07-18 05:19:15 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: phritz: I'm so sick of these shady lawyers constantly filing unwinnable lawsuits on behalf of undocumented immigrants who don't have any money. I'm sure that happens literally all the time.

I'm going to get an ID that says I'm a black woman. If my next employer looks at my pasty, neckbearded face and even hesitates to give me the job I'm going to sue them for all their worth. What was I thinking with all that college and interview prep, all I needed was an obviously fake ID.


Why bother? Just drop out and go on The Welfares. Republicans assure me it's a gravy train where I'll be able to buy a million cars with spinning rims.
 
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