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(Deadspin)   Mariano Rivera's All Star Game entrance may have been one of the greatest baseball highlights ever. Thank you, Jim Leyland   (deadspin.com) divider line 78
    More: Followup, Mariano Rivera, MLB All-Star Game, Jim Leyland, Moises Alou, baseball, Carlos Gomez, Allen Craig, Mark Grace  
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3654 clicks; posted to Sports » on 18 Jul 2013 at 1:21 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-18 05:06:29 PM

DeWayne Mann: bacongood: DeWayne Mann: bacongood: Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters.  And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry.  I think that's terrible managing.

The best is when the visiting team sits on the ace during an extra inning game.

I think it was the Reds a few weeks ago that used EVERY RELIEVER but their "closer" and were contemplating using a position player next. Gotta save Alroldis for that save situation that never came, you know.

It is usually followed by using the closer the next day while down by 4 because "he needs the work".

Either that, or he got so much work during the extra inning game (by getting up to throw some warmup tosses EVERY INNING) that he can't pitch for a couple of days.


Remember when people played chess indoors.
 
2013-07-18 05:11:58 PM

red5ish: I particularly enjoyed the way Fox interviewed Rivera during the top of the 9th, with Fielder on third and no outs, because interviewing players and coaches during game play humanizes the game, which is what viewers want. And Mariano was so human, so eloquent, it was almost poetry.  My favorite part of baseball broadcasts is when they interview the manager or one of the coaches during the game, (I don't think you are actually allowed to interview players during a game, why that is I can't imagine) so the Rivera interview was a real treat.The only thing better than an in-game interview is when they turn the camera on someone in the crowd, usually an endearing little child, eating or just being adorable. Children are our future, don't you think? Or when they show one of the team's mascots jumping around on top of the dugout (an experience that's even better in person - that's why those seats are so expensive). You have to hand it to Fox for figuring it all out and getting it right.


They interview players sometimes during the game.  I've seen David Price to several interviews on the national broadcasts.
 
2013-07-18 05:23:18 PM
We seem to be ignoring the fact that you bring in the lesser reliever in the 6th, 7th, 8th, etc. because if they give up the lead, you can reclaim it in your next at-bats -- typically against the other team's even lesser relievers. If they come back in the 9th, it might be a walk-off or at best, it's tied. Either way you're now facing the other team's closer.

I think in recent years you've seen some more creative use of closers that I approve of. Francona's handling of Papelbon was exceptional. As the season progressed to late August, September and the playoffs, Francona wouldn't hesitate to bring Papelbon in for the 7th or 8th if there were a jam. Also a big fan of letting closers get two-inning saves. What professional pitcher can't handle throwing 35 or so pitches in a big spot with (potentially) the next day off?

Red Sox now have an interesting arrangement. I think Bailey is the most dominant reliever in the pen, most capable of a shutdown inning when needed i.e. a "fireman" but he's also more likely to implode. Makes him a good bet for the 7th/8th/trouble spots. Meanwhile, Uehara is pretty lights out but gives up home runs here and there because he doesn't have dominating stuff. Makes for a lot of 1-2-3 ninth innings and a few where he comes in and it's 5-2 and ends up 5-3.
 
2013-07-18 05:33:03 PM

No Soap Radio: We seem to be ignoring the fact that you bring in the lesser reliever in the 6th, 7th, 8th, etc. because if they give up the lead, you can reclaim it in your next at-bats -- typically against the other team's even lesser relievers. If they come back in the 9th, it might be a walk-off or at best, it's tied. Either way you're now facing the other team's closer.


And if the lesser reliever gives up the lead earlier and you DON'T come back (which is more likely), you've just lost a game without using your best pitching option.

Again, it's a percentage move. And the better percentage move is to use your best pitcher in the most important spot, whether that's the 7th or the 9th...and there's generally no reason to wait around in case something even more important pops up later.
 
2013-07-18 05:52:35 PM

DeWayne Mann: bacongood: Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters.  And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry.  I think that's terrible managing.

The best is when the visiting team sits on the ace during an extra inning game.

I think it was the Reds a few weeks ago that used EVERY RELIEVER but their "closer" and were contemplating using a position player next. Gotta save Alroldis for that save situation that never came, you know.


Proven closers are always worse in non-save situations. They just don't have the same mentality in tie game or if their team is losing.

But honestly, I always roll my eyes when someone idiot spews crap like that
 
2013-07-18 05:54:08 PM

kidgenius: I saw Rivera pitch once in person. Amazing pitcher. But I was not at all unhappy to see Rivera blow that save.

2001.

Fark the yankees.


Game 7?
 
2013-07-18 06:06:17 PM

domdare: Proven closers are always worse in non-save situations. They just don't have the same mentality in tie game or if their team is losing.

But honestly, I always roll my eyes when someone idiot spews crap like that


What's funny is that that's SORT of true. Generally, if you look at a "proven closer's" numbers, they will be slightly worse in non-save situations (though it depends on what, exactly, numbers are being used).

But it's all an issue of context. A "closer" will pitch in such a situation usually for one of 4 reasons:

1. They've lost the closer's job (or haven't earned it yet, if we're looking at career numbers). This generally would indicate that they're not on the top of their game at the moment.
2. Sort of related to 1, but often times closers are traded to a team that doesn't need a closer in midseason (Eric Gagne is the classic example here). So now he's working with a new catcher/defense. Recipe for some trouble
3. If he is STILL the closer, than that almost certainly means he's been brought in to pitch in some sort of tight situation: men on, facing the heart of the order, etc.
4. Finally, if he's the closer and it's not a tight spot, then he's probably getting some work in because he hasn't pitched for awhile. Shockingly, pitchers don't generally pitch as well on a weeks worth of rest.

All 4 situations are giant red flags for "this guy is gonna pitch slightly worse than when facing the 6-7-8 hitters in the ninth."
 
2013-07-18 06:06:35 PM
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2013-07-18 06:23:17 PM

violentsalvation: kidgenius: I saw Rivera pitch once in person. Amazing pitcher. But I was not at all unhappy to see Rivera blow that save.

2001.

Fark the yankees.

Game 7?


Yup. What a game to be at.
 
2013-07-18 06:38:54 PM
As a Yankee hater there was nothing that I feared and Hated more than hearing that gawddamn song and seeing 'Mo come out of the bullpen. Or seeing him come out in any game. It was pretty much a done deal but god it was oh so so so sweet when he blew a save. ( a very rare thing )
I can't hate him at all this season. Greatest closer ever. Owner of the most devastating cutter in baseball. ( that they tried to fix when he started doing it..If only said every yankee hater in the world )

Good for Riveria. Great moment and he will deservedly be in memorial park in Yankee Stadium. I dont have to like the Yanks but I respect them and its history.And how in the farking world that they keep legends playing on that team thru their whole career ( or most of it )  And I might feel the same during Jeters last season. But never ever for A-rod! Ever!
 
2013-07-18 06:48:13 PM
See, if it was Cito Gaston, he'd just let Mariano throw pitches in the bullpen as he pulls out Duane Ward.

/ Nevar forget
 
2013-07-18 07:36:21 PM

Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters.  And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry.  I think that's terrible managing.


Eh, you generally have an 8th inning "setup guy". Really, though, good teams should have two or three rather good relievers.

And, let's be honest, how many true relievers are in the game?
 
2013-07-18 09:38:42 PM
One of the greatest baseball highlights ever.

Jesus f*cking Christ.
 
2013-07-18 10:02:34 PM

The Crepes of Wrath: McCarver reading the lyrics to "Enter Sandman" -- not so awesome.


That asshole damn near spoiled the moment. At least the dumb f*ck waited til after the commercials.
 
2013-07-18 10:17:19 PM

John Buck 41: The Crepes of Wrath: McCarver reading the lyrics to "Enter Sandman" -- not so awesome.

That asshole damn near spoiled the moment. At least the dumb f*ck waited til after the commercials.


What bothered me was they stayed for Sweet Caroline..What.. about 5 minutes.
Then Mo comes out.2 maybe 3 minutes.then to commercial..I much rather chill
with that vibe.going into the next inning..Did not need sweet caroline there either.
Was neither the time,nor the place.
 
2013-07-18 10:22:55 PM

puffy999: One of the greatest baseball highlights ever.

Jesus f*cking Christ.


I hope that's sarcasm, because I have more respect for you than that
 
2013-07-19 02:02:04 AM

DeWayne Mann: 6. Mariano Rivera. The history of the closer system dates back decades (like I said, the stat was made official in the 60s), but Mo was the first big name CLOSER. Other relievers were famous, but most of them either had successful starting careers as well (like Eck) or tended to be used in non-save situations like you've proposed (like Gossage). I mean, did anyone want to be Lee Smith or Bruce Sutter?


I wanted to be Dan Quisenberry for a bit. I worked the sidearm and submarine slots when I was about ten. I'm not sure why I switched back, it was fun and I could throw all day like that with minimal strain, I must have just forgotten about it by the next season.

By the way, if you haven't yet (I have a feeling you have), check out Sparky Lyle's book with Peter Golenbock, "The Bronx Zoo". Good insight into the mind of a closer as the role was developing, and particularly what happens when that pitcher's role changes. Sparky won the Cy Young and Steinbrenner went right out and signed Rich Gossage anyway, and for a lot more money.
 
2013-07-19 03:14:08 AM

Contrabulous Flabtraption: I am in awe that Joe Buck somehow found the restraint to keep his f*cking mouth shut


Came to say something like this.  Buck did it right.  Someone like Bob Costas would have felt the urge to narrate every second of it.  This called for the announcer to get the fark out of the way and let the moment happen.
 
2013-07-19 04:40:51 AM
 
2013-07-19 07:08:28 AM

Waldo Pepper: another fun all star moment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq2XU9e_97A


I hate anything that puts A Rod in a good light, so thanks for ruining my day. If anything Mariano is showing even more class the way he's handling his victory lap. Nothing at all like the Magic Johnson 'Come here and suck on this for a while' Tour.
 
2013-07-19 08:19:37 AM

DeWayne Mann: Ok, so, there's a few issues in play here. In no particular order:


lots of smart stuff

My only reply is that winning cures everything, even ESPN has begun to focus on the advanced stats. Every GM (outside of the Phillies Ruin Tomorrow Jr.) now has adapted at least some level of sabermetric thinking. In 5 years some forward thinking teams will be going with ace reliever. If they win, it will catch on. If they don't it will be set back.
 
2013-07-19 08:31:23 AM

das: Gomez: "When I see Mariano come in for the eighth, I said, 'Wow, I'm gonna face Mariano'...I got to the dugout and said, 'I'm gonna be history. I'm the last guy Mariano got out in the All-Star Game.'"


Between that and Fielder's triple, Gomez had the best shiatty night at the All-Star Game since John Kruk.
 
2013-07-19 08:32:13 AM

Crewmannumber6: Waldo Pepper: another fun all star moment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq2XU9e_97A

I hate anything that puts A Rod in a good light, so thanks for ruining my day. If anything Mariano is showing even more class the way he's handling his victory lap. Nothing at all like the Magic Johnson 'Come here and suck on this for a while' Tour.


think of it more like Cal is able to bring out the good that exist in even the worst of people lol
 
2013-07-19 10:51:05 AM

Waldo Pepper: Crewmannumber6: Waldo Pepper: another fun all star moment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq2XU9e_97A

I hate anything that puts A Rod in a good light, so thanks for ruining my day. If anything Mariano is showing even more class the way he's handling his victory lap. Nothing at all like the Magic Johnson 'Come here and suck on this for a while' Tour.

think of it more like Cal is able to bring out the good that exist in even the worst of people lol


This is why for a long time I have tried to support A-Rod, for all the good things he does - but the announcement of the Biogenesis business made me finally say enough is enough.
 
2013-07-19 11:06:55 AM

idesofmarch: Waldo Pepper: Crewmannumber6: Waldo Pepper: another fun all star moment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq2XU9e_97A

I hate anything that puts A Rod in a good light, so thanks for ruining my day. If anything Mariano is showing even more class the way he's handling his victory lap. Nothing at all like the Magic Johnson 'Come here and suck on this for a while' Tour.

think of it more like Cal is able to bring out the good that exist in even the worst of people lol

This is why for a long time I have tried to support A-Rod, for all the good things he does - but the announcement of the Biogenesis business made me finally say enough is enough.


I try to consider would I want that person as my neighbor (money aside lol). I don't know enough about A-rod to judge him.
 
2013-07-19 12:04:21 PM

Dafatone: I still think trusting Joe Nathan, one of the best closers of all time (seriously, study it out) to throw the 8th would have been better.  Then you don't have to worry about the Yankee fans in the stadium being oddly quiet because they expected Mariano in the 9th.


Not with a 9.00 ERA in the playoffs he's not.
 
2013-07-19 12:37:47 PM

DeWayne Mann: 6. Mariano Rivera. The history of the closer system dates back decades (like I said, the stat was made official in the 60s), but Mo was the first big name CLOSER. Other relievers were famous, but most of them either had successful starting careers as well (like Eck) or tended to be used in non-save situations like you've proposed (like Gossage). I mean, did anyone want to be Lee Smith or Bruce Sutter?


*raises hand*

/Cards fan who grew up in the late 80s/early 90s
//also wanted to be Tom Henke, the whitest man in baseball, for about two months
///didn't like Rene Arocha, though
 
2013-07-19 02:42:34 PM

Job Creator: Dafatone: I still think trusting Joe Nathan, one of the best closers of all time (seriously, study it out) to throw the 8th would have been better.  Then you don't have to worry about the Yankee fans in the stadium being oddly quiet because they expected Mariano in the 9th.

Not with a 9.00 ERA in the playoffs he's not.


It's 9 innings total.  Take out a disastrous first playoff appearance a decade ago, before he was closing, and you're in better shape.

Besides, who else are you putting ahead of him?  Trevor Hoffman's a joke in big situations.  Billy Wagner, sure.  It's hard to compare to older pitchers, since they threw so many more innings, so I'm not sure how to factor in a guy like Gossage.

But if we're talking "closer era" closers, whatever that means, it's Mariano, then Wagner (and I guess Hoffman, but seriously, if you blow games 162 and 163 you don't get to be on this list,) then Nathan.
 
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