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(Deadspin)   Mariano Rivera's All Star Game entrance may have been one of the greatest baseball highlights ever. Thank you, Jim Leyland   (deadspin.com) divider line 78
    More: Followup, Mariano Rivera, MLB All-Star Game, Jim Leyland, Moises Alou, baseball, Carlos Gomez, Allen Craig, Mark Grace  
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3653 clicks; posted to Sports » on 18 Jul 2013 at 1:21 PM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-18 12:36:08 PM
Classy and awesome
 
2013-07-18 12:46:41 PM
good on leyland to make sure the moment was set up perfectly. good on everyone in the stadium for recognizing it.
 
2013-07-18 01:25:30 PM
Why didn't he...  you know... close it?
 
2013-07-18 01:27:03 PM

GoldSpider: Why didn't he...  you know... close it?


If only there was someplace we could go to find this out!!
 
2013-07-18 01:28:29 PM

shifty lookin bleeder: GoldSpider: Why didn't he...  you know... close it?

If only there was someplace we could go to find this out!!


Like some sort of icon that when clicked takes you to an explanation as to why
 
2013-07-18 01:29:26 PM

shifty lookin bleeder: If only there was someplace we could go to find this out!!


I don't think the AL had anything to worry about in that game.  The NL's bats were dead.
 
2013-07-18 01:29:46 PM
McCarver reading the lyrics to "Enter Sandman" -- not so awesome.
 
2013-07-18 01:33:07 PM
I hate the Yankees, but think Riveria is a class act.

Good on Leyland
 
2013-07-18 01:37:58 PM
sure, it would have been nice to see him close it, but Leland got him in while it mattered & not just for appearances.
 
2013-07-18 01:39:34 PM
I was wondering about the non-save as well...but reading the explanation, I understand why I not a big-league manager. :-/

That was a truly a neat moment and I was happy to be able to view it.
 
2013-07-18 01:41:17 PM

KingKauff: Like some sort of icon that when clicked takes you to an explanation as to why


Yeah, like that. And then you'd need a way for people to get their $0.02 in too.


GoldSpider: I don't think the AL had anything to worry about in that game.  The NL's bats were dead.

True, but Leyland is not really one to leave things to chance.
 
2013-07-18 01:42:35 PM
I still think trusting Joe Nathan, one of the best closers of all time (seriously, study it out) to throw the 8th would have been better.  Then you don't have to worry about the Yankee fans in the stadium being oddly quiet because they expected Mariano in the 9th.
 
2013-07-18 01:45:04 PM
Oddest thing about that video clip: The announcers kept their damn mouths shut. Amazing.
 
2013-07-18 01:47:23 PM
It wasn't about "trusting" Joe Nathan or anything, quite the opposite.   If Nathan came in the 8th and blew the lead, there would be no guarantee there would be a bottom of the 9th for Rivera to come in to.

Yeah, the NL offense was non-existant, but three runs is hardly insurmountable.

Is it that hard to figure out?
 
2013-07-18 01:50:19 PM
blogs.villagevoice.com

"Justice is lost.  Justice is raped.  Justice is gone.  Pulling your strings, justice is done.  Seeking no truth, winning is all.  Find it so grim, so true, so real."
 
2013-07-18 01:51:39 PM

LessO2: It wasn't about "trusting" Joe Nathan or anything, quite the opposite.   If Nathan came in the 8th and blew the lead, there would be no guarantee there would be a bottom of the 9th for Rivera to come in to.

Yeah, the NL offense was non-existant, but three runs is hardly insurmountable.

Is it that hard to figure out?


Yeah, it's not like Nathan would have been coming in facing All-stars who can hit or anything. There's no way they could get 3 runs, right? And if he did get in trouble, it'd be just as epic to see Rivera come in for 1 out with the bases loaded and chance him TAKING THE LOSS if he gives up a base hit.

Haters are stupid, it was the right move, it was an exhibition game and he got his moment. Enjoy it.
 
2013-07-18 01:56:11 PM
blogs.villagevoice.com

THERE'S A FEELIN' DEEP INSIDE
THAT DRIVES YOU F*CKIN' MAD
FEELIN' OF A HAMMERHEAD
YOU NEED IT OH SO BAD
 
2013-07-18 01:56:23 PM
MLB should allow Leyland to smoke in the dugout for the rest of this season for this. And I don't mean down the runway, IN THE DUGOUT.
 
2013-07-18 01:58:23 PM
As a Sox fan I can say that Mo is the real deal.  Glad he's going though, LOL.  That moment was great, and well played by Leyland to let him get some spotlight.

However - right after that moment - who in the holy fark decide it was a good idea to play Sweet Caroline in NY?  That person needs a sacking.


//I also do like how Rivera is going to each ballpark and spending a little time with the ground crews, chefs, back office worked, etc.  THAT is a classy move.
 
2013-07-18 02:01:02 PM
I particularly enjoyed the way Fox interviewed Rivera during the top of the 9th, with Fielder on third and no outs, because interviewing players and coaches during game play humanizes the game, which is what viewers want. And Mariano was so human, so eloquent, it was almost poetry.  My favorite part of baseball broadcasts is when they interview the manager or one of the coaches during the game, (I don't think you are actually allowed to interview players during a game, why that is I can't imagine) so the Rivera interview was a real treat.The only thing better than an in-game interview is when they turn the camera on someone in the crowd, usually an endearing little child, eating or just being adorable. Children are our future, don't you think? Or when they show one of the team's mascots jumping around on top of the dugout (an experience that's even better in person - that's why those seats are so expensive). You have to hand it to Fox for figuring it all out and getting it right.
 
2013-07-18 02:05:03 PM
Mo himself said it was the right move.

He got his inning in, and in a way, he passed the ball and the responsibility on to the next generation of closers. I don't think it could've been anymore perfect.
 
2013-07-18 02:06:47 PM
That was cool, but hardly ever greatest ever level. Think about what you are saying. Unless, you are a Yankee fan. Then, understood.

Mo is one of the good guys. he deserves whatever he gets.

And Metallica is Dad Rock? Whatever. It's not our fault rock and roll pretty much died after 1992. Not much happening since then that lasts longer than a week.
 
2013-07-18 02:10:52 PM

violentsalvation: Mo himself said it was the right move.

He got his inning in, and in a way, he passed the ball and the responsibility on to the next generation of closers. I don't think it could've been anymore perfect.


Joe Nathan is 38
 
2013-07-18 02:17:31 PM

Taxee: MLB should allow Leyland to smoke in the dugout for the rest of this season for this. And I don't mean down the runway, IN THE DUGOUT.


They do allow him. It's the city of Detroit that does not.
 
2013-07-18 02:21:32 PM
First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting.  Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?
 
2013-07-18 02:22:37 PM

Peter von Nostrand: violentsalvation: Mo himself said it was the right move.

He got his inning in, and in a way, he passed the ball and the responsibility on to the next generation of closers. I don't think it could've been anymore perfect.

Joe Nathan is 38


That's still 5 years younger than Mariano, and by the looks of him, about 50 years younger than Jim Leyland.
 
2013-07-18 02:22:45 PM

barneyfifesbullet: That was cool, but hardly ever greatest ever level. Think about what you are saying. Unless, you are a Yankee fan. Then, understood.

Mo is one of the good guys. he deserves whatever he gets.

And Metallica is Dad Rock? Whatever. It's not our fault rock and roll pretty much died after 1992. Not much happening since then that lasts longer than a week.


92... really? Look I'll give you late 90's maybe - but 92 to the end of the decade still had(and I'm only counting mainstream)  Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Nirvana (I am pretty sure Cobain died in 93) Pearl Jam, Chili Peppers, Jane's Addiction, Fishbone, Smashing Pumpkins, U2 (before total sellout stage), Soul Asylum, Weezer, Blur ... and the eh, their ok groups - Live, Green Day, Bush, Oasis, Radiohead, Blink 182

and that is giving it about 3 minutes of thought
 
2013-07-18 02:25:48 PM

Arkanaut: First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting.  Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?


Do you want an actual answer to this question? Because I can provide one, but it will be long and somewhat ranty.
 
2013-07-18 02:38:55 PM

Broktun: I hate the Yankees, but think Riveria is a class act.

Good on Leyland


My thoughts exactly.  Always disliked the Yankees (grew up near Baltimore), but that was a great moment for really great player.

I'll be glad to see that guy retire, though.
 
2013-07-18 02:39:54 PM

Arkanaut: First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting.  Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?


I think gibbons (who helped leyland with this game) already uses this strategy in Toronto. At least when it comes to the ALLSTAR RELIEVERS Cecil and delabar. Casey isn't exactly bad either.
 
2013-07-18 02:55:08 PM

DeWayne Mann: Arkanaut: First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting.  Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?

Do you want an actual answer to this question? Because I can provide one, but it will be long and somewhat ranty.


I always want to see one of your rants......
 
2013-07-18 02:59:11 PM
It'll be sad once the last of the Yankees from the Joe Torre Era retire. I hated those Yankees but they were pretty good.
 
2013-07-18 03:01:14 PM

DeWayne Mann: Arkanaut: First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting.  Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?

Do you want an actual answer to this question? Because I can provide one, but it will be long and somewhat ranty.


Try me.  If you've got the time, anyway.
 
2013-07-18 03:01:53 PM

Arkanaut: First, Leyland didn't want to run the risk of the NL taking the lead and not coming to bat in the bottom of the ninth, meaning Rivera would have never left the bullpen.

Smart move by Leyland -- I wonder why managers don't commit their best relievers earlier, i.e. make sure they even get to a save situation first, instead of saving somebody like Mariano for the ninth while entrusting your seventh or eighth inning to some scrub who couldn't cut it starting.  Is it really so much worse to lose a game in the ninth instead of the seventh?


There are managers (and Leyland is absolutely one of them) who believe that there is a difference between pitching in the 8th inning and pitching in the 9th and that there are some guys who just can't handle the 9th.
 
2013-07-18 03:03:43 PM

You're the jerk... jerk: I always want to see one of your rants......


Hey, I've actually got stuff to do today, you know.

I mean, not right NOW....

Arkanaut: Try me. If you've got the time, anyway.


Ok, coming up
 
2013-07-18 03:06:09 PM
ecx.images-amazon.com

Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Unbelievable!
Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Unbelievable!

/Would pee in my pants if I heard Tim sing Kate Bush
 
2013-07-18 03:08:29 PM

skinink: It'll be sad once the last of the Yankees from the Joe Torre Era retire. I hated those Yankees but they were pretty good.


It's funny that I thought Torre was the only one that sucked out of the whole group
 
2013-07-18 03:39:12 PM

barneyfifesbullet: That was cool, but hardly ever greatest ever level. Think about what you are saying. Unless, you are a Yankee fan. Then, understood.

Mo is one of the good guys. he deserves whatever he gets.

And Metallica is Dad Rock? Whatever. It's not our fault rock and roll pretty much died after 1992. Not much happening since then that lasts longer than a week.


Pretty much all of this, Mo is probably the best closer ever with just one pitch but this hardly the greatest baseball highlight ever. Hell it may not even be top 20 in Yankees history and I personally probably wouldn't put it in the top 100 of baseball highlights of all time. MLB has been around a long time and without even trying I could come up with a ton greater.
 
2013-07-18 03:59:50 PM

p the boiler: barneyfifesbullet: That was cool, but hardly ever greatest ever level. Think about what you are saying. Unless, you are a Yankee fan. Then, understood.

Mo is one of the good guys. he deserves whatever he gets.

And Metallica is Dad Rock? Whatever. It's not our fault rock and roll pretty much died after 1992. Not much happening since then that lasts longer than a week.

92... really? Look I'll give you late 90's maybe - but 92 to the end of the decade still had(and I'm only counting mainstream)  Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Nirvana (I am pretty sure Cobain died in 93) Pearl Jam, Chili Peppers, Jane's Addiction, Fishbone, Smashing Pumpkins, U2 (before total sellout stage), Soul Asylum, Weezer, Blur ... and the eh, their ok groups - Live, Green Day, Bush, Oasis, Radiohead, Blink 182

and that is giving it about 3 minutes of thought


You forgot Ace of Base.
 
2013-07-18 04:03:21 PM
Ok, so, there's a few issues in play here. In no particular order:

1. Anecdotal evidence. I don't particularly buy any of this stuff, but other people do, so I have to include it. Common beliefs among managers/players/certain analysts include

-It's harder to pitch in the 9th
-It takes a certain type of personality to succeed in the 9th (usually related to the above), so not everyone can do it.
-Pitchers perform better if they have a set role, particularly if that role is based on knowing they'll be coming in at a certain time. If one guy is the 8th inning guy, he knows he can start to get warm sometime in the 7th, rather than needing to be ready at a moment's notice

There's little to no evidence of any of the above being true, but that's the case with a lot of stuff in baseball.

2. Saves. The save was made an official stat in the late 60s (the blown save wasn't official until the 90s). A stat being made official isn't a HUGE deal, but it has a few effects. It raises the visibility of the stat (it gets put on HOF plaques, baseball cards, etc), meaning people are more likely to care about it. It also means that it can be used in arbitration (meaning that, given two identical players, the one with more saves will likely make more money in his career). Switching to a "relief ace" situation means no player on the team will accumulate a ton of saves (conversely, most relievers will get a handful of them). Wouldn't make the players happy, and managing the players themselves is a rather large chunk of the manager's job.

There's also a bit of a prestige issue here; no pitcher wants to be removed, but they certainly don't want to be pulled for a worse pitcher.

3. Managers tend to be slow to change, and generally prefer to avoid criticism and second guessing. If a manager were to implement a relief ace system, he would be criticized before ever playing a game. If it proceeded to work, it would most likely be treated as an aberration (until it was successful a few more times). If it proceeded to fail (which is entirely possible, for reasons I'll mention later), it would be taken as a given and just more proof that the stuff I said in 1 is true. By playing it safe and doing what every other manager does, all of that stuff can be avoided.

(Note that this idea comes into play in several other areas: batting order, sac bunts, etc).

4. Related to 3, 9th inning losses are more memorable than earlier ones. If two teams had identical records, but one had a lot more 9th inning losses, I'd bet that manager would be more likely to be fired.

5. While using your best pitcher in the best situation is certainly smarter baseball, it's still a rather small matter. Best case scenario, you maybe win one or two more games a year. Worst case, you lose one or two more. While the best case is slightly more likely, it's by no means a surefire thing. Is it worth shaking up everything above for that?

6. Mariano Rivera. The history of the closer system dates back decades (like I said, the stat was made official in the 60s), but Mo was the first big name CLOSER. Other relievers were famous, but most of them either had successful starting careers as well (like Eck) or tended to be used in non-save situations like you've proposed (like Gossage). I mean, did anyone want to be Lee Smith or Bruce Sutter?

And then there's the strike in '94, and a lot of people get mad at the game....and suddenly, the Yankees come more or less out of nowhere to start a dynasty and reinvigorate a lot of interest. And one of the most visible players in that dynasty is the best closer ever. It's not a huge stretch to think "Hey, they have an amazing closer; they're an amazing team. Maybe there's a connection there." And so, not for the first time, everyone tries to copy what the Yankees have done, not realizing that Mariano is possibly made of magic, and not realizing that (as good as he is) he still wasn't used 100% optimally.

7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

Now, if you excuse me, I need to bat my slap hitting second baseman second. He's a good bunter, you know.
 
2013-07-18 04:14:39 PM
I'm a Phillies fan, and I really don't like the Yankees.

But this was cool.
 
2013-07-18 04:21:23 PM
I am in awe that Joe Buck somehow found the restraint to keep his f*cking mouth shut
 
2013-07-18 04:21:42 PM
I saw Rivera pitch once in person. Amazing pitcher. But I was not at all unhappy to see Rivera blow that save.

2001.

Fark the yankees.
 
2013-07-18 04:29:33 PM

DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.


It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters.  And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry.  I think that's terrible managing.
 
das
2013-07-18 04:30:26 PM
Gomez: "When I see Mariano come in for the eighth, I said, 'Wow, I'm gonna face Mariano'...I got to the dugout and said, 'I'm gonna be history. I'm the last guy Mariano got out in the All-Star Game.'"
 
2013-07-18 04:35:32 PM

Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters.  And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry.  I think that's terrible managing.


It absolutely is terrible managing. But if the 8th inning guy blows it, most people will forget about it.

If the "closer" comes in in the 8th and shuts them down, then the other guy pitches the ninth and still blows it, it'll be all over SportsCenter.
 
2013-07-18 04:37:44 PM

Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters.  And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry.  I think that's terrible managing.


The best is when the visiting team sits on the ace during an extra inning game.
 
2013-07-18 04:40:24 PM

bacongood: Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters.  And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry.  I think that's terrible managing.

The best is when the visiting team sits on the ace during an extra inning game.


I think it was the Reds a few weeks ago that used EVERY RELIEVER but their "closer" and were contemplating using a position player next. Gotta save Alroldis for that save situation that never came, you know.
 
2013-07-18 04:45:36 PM

DeWayne Mann: bacongood: Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters.  And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry.  I think that's terrible managing.

The best is when the visiting team sits on the ace during an extra inning game.

I think it was the Reds a few weeks ago that used EVERY RELIEVER but their "closer" and were contemplating using a position player next. Gotta save Alroldis for that save situation that never came, you know.


It is usually followed by using the closer the next day while down by 4 because "he needs the work".
 
2013-07-18 04:49:40 PM

bacongood: DeWayne Mann: bacongood: Slow To Return: DeWayne Mann: 7. To circle back for a conclusion, I mentioned batting order earlier. Batting order & bullpen usage are really, really similar. Tweaking either one can result in small gains; but doing so, you go against accepted "wisdom" & the wills of your players, and you risk annoying the fanbase. Generally, that's just not going to happen.

It infuriates me to watch managers give the 3-4-5 batters in the 8th to a "spare" reliever, so that he can save the ace reliever for the 6-7-8 batters.  And it's worse if lefty-righty matchups come in to play.

Sorry.  I think that's terrible managing.

The best is when the visiting team sits on the ace during an extra inning game.

I think it was the Reds a few weeks ago that used EVERY RELIEVER but their "closer" and were contemplating using a position player next. Gotta save Alroldis for that save situation that never came, you know.

It is usually followed by using the closer the next day while down by 4 because "he needs the work".


Either that, or he got so much work during the extra inning game (by getting up to throw some warmup tosses EVERY INNING) that he can't pitch for a couple of days.
 
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